[Haruhi] The Coin

[Arakawa]

Again, I'd like to apologize if what I've written comes across the wrong way. I remember you mentioning that you had trouble with this chapter, so there's a chance that this is not at all helpful. Still, I'm always tempted to trust that the other person is going to be able to take my feedback and only take in what makes them stronger...

The issue seems to be that the scene as written has Haruhi's characterization consistent with your (presumable) earlier concept, where Haruhi's hubris was going to lead to the sort of cosmic horror disaster scenario you lampshaded in the last chapter. (Erasing her friends... *shudder*) It's inconsistent with the previous chapters of this version of the fic, though.

Essentially, this is (in my apparent interpretation) turning out to be a fic about trust issues between Haruhi and the Brigade. The problem is, for the trust issues to have a happy ending, Haruhi needs to come across as deserving trust... i.e. as at least willing to work past her problems.

[Muphrid]

Don't be worried at all, Arakawa, I find this extremely helpful.  I wanted Haruhi to present the Sigh scene the way she would've approached it then, so as to be more immersive, but clearly more emphasis is needed on the repentance aspects of that, on Haruhi berating herself, to make that come across correctly.  Perhaps a break would reinforce the notion that all that stuff that happened in Sigh is emphatically not how she feels about having done those things now that she can reflect upon them in the "present".

I admit, there are still aspects of it that may be inherently clumsy:  to me, if Haruhi doesn't realize she did wrong there, she is utterly unsympathetic and there is no saving her.  Conversely, I can't think of how she would realize she did wrong to accomplish that--the option I went for was something concrete, and what I was aiming for was, "I was wrong about this; I was wrong about everything."  Would it be enough if, based solely on Kyon's reaction, she comes to doubt herself instead?

I feel that that initial stumbling block has colored the interpretation of everything else after that.  Koizumi's emphatic reaction to Haruhi's offer to disband the espers (by their own choice) was meant to hide his real complaint--that Haruhi saw fit to offer that freedom to Mori, a stranger and perhaps even an enemy by comparison, rather than to Koizumi as a comrade and friend.

Something that occurred to me a short while ago was prompted by the question of why Haruhi wouldn't come right out and confess what she'd done and that she'd realized she was wrong.  The cynical explanation is that pride is involved, and I won't dismiss that, but I think that pride can twist in another way--Haruhi could (in principle, in theory) feel that when she does wrong, such wrongs are beyond forgiveness as a function of her position as brigade leader or some other logic.  For that, she would see no reason for Kyon to forgive her.  There are still some nagging issues with that approach, though.  I won't claim it's fully understood on my part or well thought out.

At any rate, the intention was assuredly not to play on Haruhi's pride or hubris.  This should be the moment Haruhi accepts responsibility for her own actions and, beyond that, for actions that are out of her control--where she feels that, were she not so important or such a big influence on the world, Koizumi would be just as happy following whatever pursuits he enjoyed before being an esper, that Asahina would be exploring time like an archaeologist or a historian rather than condemned to protect it through predestination and fate.  That is supposed to be the massive creep factor for her when she goes to the future--a huge training facility that's floating in the atmosphere of another planet, all meant to provide an exact mock-up, down to the last millimeter, of 21st century Japan?  Haruhi loves attention sometimes, but on her terms.  This level of detail is like being stalked.

Anyway, I'm not at all deterred by your commentary because it's precisely for such honest and thought-out opinions that I submit these chapters for review.  If anything, I think have myself to blame, for I can't think of any reason to have missed your interpretation other than having sent this out without the proper critical thinking and polish.  I've had this "written" for a few days, but I'd been making changes all weekend and probably should've let it sit a bit longer.  Once again, I can only be disappointed in myself for not making my intended interpretation clear enough that it could be reasonably glimpsed, despite the problems with this chapter.

Lastly, one thing I do want to ask about is this:

As it stands, we have Sigh!Haruhi, who is awful, and your Haruhi, who's written as though she's a completely different character who thus doesn't have remorse for the actions of that other Haruhi in the novels, because they're not really connected (they don't have quite the same set of flaws, and certainly your character isn't as horrible as )

Do you mean that my Haruhi approaches Sigh Haruhi that way, or my Haruhi so fundamentally different that she cannot even be expected to understand what Sigh Haruhi did?

That may be a point more of curiosity; I do want Haruhi to feel, at least in some way, like an extension of her canonical self.  Have I mentioned that, even at the most fluid moments, I still find writing Haruhi difficult?  It still seems like there's a minefield of gotchas out there, and you have to weave around them circuitously if you want to capture the character that is, acknowledge the character that was, and paint a portrait of a character she can grow into.


Well, don't feel pressured to give feedback on the rest of the chapter if the opening makes it too difficult.  I can definitely brainstorm on how to get that opening passage to fit more in line with what I intended.  If you do look over the rest with a closer eye, however, I'll surely welcome that.

[Anastasia]

I'll second Arakawa about the concerns over the flashback scene. Haruhi seems outright horrific during it, a better and more sympathetic approach is distinctly needed.

Is the scene with Koizumi adequate?  I feel I may have shortchanged him here, and that the only solution is to expand significantly (in the mode of chapter five being expanded with Mori), but...I kinda want to get through this and not be slowed down by such a diversion when the point is made sufficiently by the end here.

It's a fine scene. I liked what it did for Koizumi quite a lot.

Does Asahina (big)'s breakdown at the end follow logically?  I had to revise and twist that scene (and the cafe scene) around to be logical, so having gone through a lot of iterations and rethinking, I'm not sure if it ends up being clear.

Sort of. My first thought was that she was faking it and manipulating Haruhi. It fit with how the entire chapter framed her character, and I could completely see her doing that.

[Arakawa]

And now, C&C for Muphrid.

Let's start with my (much-overdue) analysis of the first scene of this chapter, which is somewhat all over the place, but yet mostly goes nasty places. The rest of the chapter (which isn't plagued by such problems) will get C&Ced later, in case my feedback prompts changes that cast the entirety of the chapter in a different light.

As you noted, the purpose of the scene seems to have been to immerse the reader in Haruhi's thoughts at the time of 'Sigh'. If I were going that route, I'd be tempted to do something like having the younger Haruhi's thoughts in present tense, italic and then commentary by the older Haruhi in the standard past tense narration. (Note on this particular method: using present tense for a flashback and past tense for the main narrative might strike people as a bit odd, but not unduly so? I dunno.)

It's probably not flattering for me to say this, but it's not often I've felt real shame. Part of that comes from my outlook on life. There are lots of things people say you shouldn't do. You can't walk around on the street naked, for instance, even though it hurts no one but yourself. Why should I be ashamed of something like that if I didn't want to be?

That logic doesn't apply to everything, though. There are times when your actions can wound other people, and if they're in no position to complain, someone else will on their behalf. I know that well. It's happened to me before.

We start with a pontification on public nudity. As a prelude to some other flashback it might be fine, but with the chapter as written we're going to end up remembering that and using it to mentally underscore just how unserious Haruhi is being about considering what she did wrong.

What could be interesting about that? So I set out to do something different, and that somehow meant Mikuru-chan had to get dunked into a pond.

So Haruhi doesn't remember her own reasoning behind that. Again, this is in and of itself all right, but in context yet another straw for the camel.

We agreed to let it go for the day, since when I looked into her eyes, she could barely meet my gaze, but that's when I noticed something.

And now this is totally unacceptable... umm... they didn't 'agree' to anything, at least not in the translation I have. (It would be good to triple-check this moment against the Brown translation, though.) What happened was Kyon yelled at Koizumi to stop, put his camera down and refused to film. Then, instead of acknowledging this or... at least... arguing, Haruhi just ignored them and started trying to make Mikuru's contact lens fall out.

I know it's probably an accidental inaccuracy, but this actually made me feel annoyance with the character (where all the Kyon-Haruhi-tsundere stuff that Brian had a problem with did not), because in this particular case the fact that Haruhi embellishes the narrative with these additional details amounts to her deluding herself about how reasonable she was being. And, since this it's first person narration, it's almost like this character is flat out lying to the reader about the events of Sigh. In short, it really ruins the effect. When you're admitting to doing something wrong, it's probably good to get the details of what you did wrong correctly!

It colors the rest of the flashback as fundamentally dishonest.

The color contact I'd given her from before—she still had it in. Really, there was only one quick way to fix that.

So I whacked her on the back of the head with the megaphone.

She winced a little bit, but the contact wouldn't come out. Well, that wouldn't do at all! I hit her again and again—really, how hard could it be to make a contact fly out?

Okay, so let's interpret it that way. Obvious implication: Haruhi started whacking Mikuru because she was oblivious to the fact that this was going to drive Kyon livid, not because she wanted to spite him further. Personally, I read a bit of spite into Haruhi's actions as well (i.e. she responded to Kyon by putting on airs of being more tyrannical and demanding, and this is a result of that), but that might just be me, and Haruhi might have plausibly forgotten that aspect of things. (Though note that this contradicts the one repentance-ish paragraph where Haruhi acknowledges she wanted to get a rise out of Kyon on some level.)

That's when Kyon stopped me. He caught my arm. He challenged me. "Cut it out, stupid," he said. "How is this practice? What does this have to do with acting? How is any of this fun?"

I tried to tell him. It was a convention; that's all. Hadn't he seen it on television before?

Again, Kyon is just-slightly-misquoted here, but this isn't nearly as egregious as the previous embellishment. I note your Haruhi has this habit of stylizing her flashbacks to spin a better yarn. That's fine, it's just that this particular scene is the worst possible context for her to be doing it...

Not my...? Who was he to tell me that? What was he doing, being so protective of her? What was it about her that was so worthy of his protection? How defenseless she was? Anyone could act that way! I was the one in control there! Mikuru-chan was my toy!

And I thought Kyon would take that and think about it. I thought he'd shake it off and back down. For all the times he'd complained about the brigade and my orders, he'd never outright crossed me. In the end, I always had the final word. I knew, coming from him, that didn't mean blind obedience. I thought it meant I had his respect.

This is at odds with the implication that Haruhi believes herself to have been just monstrously thick (about contact lenses). In this paragraph it's implied that she was deliberately being as nasty as she could to bend Kyon to her will. It's either one or the other; doing both makes it come across like Haruhi briefly realizes just how much spite she had in that encounter, then suppresses the realization in favor of thinking it was just a problem with making a mistake about the contact lens at the wrong moment.

And the only thing that kept us from really getting into a knock-down drag-out was that Mikuru-chan, as she was passing out, begged us both to stop.

Interesting point, though I'm not sure what it implies just yet; anyhow, it's likely worth leaving the implication in (conveyed in some other form). If Kyon had actually hit her, Haruhi predicts herself as just escalating, to the point of beating him up in return, and probably (reading between the lines) it would not have as much impact on her.

I went home really steamed after that. I went straight to Father's computer. I'd show Kyon he was wrong. I'd bring him the proof. Contacts really do fly out of people's eyes like that!

When they were made of plexiglass.

Earlier paragraphs having biased me against this character thoroughly and completely, I read this as: "The only thing I did wrong involves not knowing the properties of non-plexiglass contact lenses!"

It might be good to figure out how to avoid this interpretation in a rewritten version, since it's kind of unfair. Again: having apparently misrepresented events of Sigh, Haruhi loses my trust, and the fairly calm way she retells her actions comes across as completely and utterly uncaring.

So all that hitting the back of Mikuru-chan's head was for nothing. Proclaiming her my toy just to get back at Kyon? Pointless. I was using her. I was using her to get a rise out of him. That's what I meant to do all along, wasn't it? Why else make Mikuru-chan and Koizumi-kun kiss except to make Kyon jealous because he couldn't kiss her instead? And after all that, I did get a rise out of him. I got an uncharacteristic flash of emotion, which told me how he truly felt. He thought I was being stupid and selfish and bratty. He didn't need to hit me to get that across. The realization was like having his knuckles clock me against my cheek.

Kyon didn't speak to me until lunch the next day. Hell, we'd hardly even looked at each other. At that point, I really thought I must've been totally deluded. That night from months before, when I dreamed about him kissing me—it was total fantasy. It had no connection to reality. And when he burst into the club room, finding me there, I really thought he was going to say it—that he wanted nothing to do with the brigade, nothing to do with me.

I was wrong about that, too. I guess, even then, Kyon had proved where he wanted to be. I was just too thick to see that—whether it be in the fall of my first year in high school or in the summer of my second.

Again, this is coloured in my eyes as Haruhi seething that Kyon called her out on her actions. (Somewhere in the above she was also hurting Mikuru, but this drops out of Haruhi's field of vision in spite of the introductory paragraph claiming that it was the root of the issue. Because of this I get the idea that it instead really is all about Kyon and how much Haruhi selfishly hates the idea that Kyon would get angry at her. And yet is still trying to get Kyon angry -- this is a pretty screwed up thing to be doing. Well, Kyon gets angry. Because of something Haruhi did, but still "urgghh Kyon was all going to quit the Brigade!"

Then relief that, after all that's happened, Kyon somehow doesn't hate Haruhi's guts.)

That's why, the morning after my trip across the galaxy, I was slow to get out of bed. I didn't need to walk to school, and the last thing I wanted to do was to get there early and face his questions. What happened to me? Why didn't I call? How could I think he didn't want to go when he said he did? Each question would be like a knife to the heart that I couldn't take, so I delayed. I stalled. At breakfast, I mulled over every grain of rice like I'd choke if I didn't. In the end, rushed me out the door with her so she could get going, too, but I made it a point to drag my feet, to look at my phone as the minutes ticked by until, at last, I could dally no longer. I wished myself to my shoe locker, changed my footwear, and was outside our classroom in another blink of an eye.

So, to highlight how blasé Haruhi is about her prior actions in 'Sigh' we then see her *genuinely* beat herself up... over the fact that she was impatient enough to go see an alien planet without Kyon. Yes, gut-punch, but it's not in the same ballpark as actively tormenting someone and then feeding the reader this half-assed half-explanation. It might be possible to rewrite this, though, to make it clear that Haruhi failing to take Kyon along, prompted her to think about the events of 'Sigh', and worry that she might be spiraling towards doing something even worse to lose his trust.

This is essentially why I said what I said about your Haruhi vs. Sigh!Haruhi: it's as though Haruhi was calmly talking about the actions of some completely different person in this flashback. This effect might sort of proceed from the writer thinking of the two as slightly different characters (at different stages in Haruhi's development, with a significantly different outlook on things), but since the reader knows they're the same character, the demeanor is all wrong. It suggests that Haruhi hasn't really learned anything, she's just slightly pompous and all "look at me! I acknowledge that I did stuff wrong!"

Many more damning problems lie in what Haruhi doesn't think about in this flashback. Obviously she doesn't want to remember her behaviour, but obviously she needs to since the incident has something to teach her. (Hence the flashback.) Shouldn't there be a fear that she hasn't escaped the problem? Maybe in turn assuaged with an acknowledgment that she's been trying to act better? Maybe there's a slight worry that -- Haruhi was genuinely afraid Kyon was going to leave -- these flaws, if ignored, are going to lead Haruhi to destroy her own brigade? Again, the notion that Haruhi certainly deserved to have no clue about her own powers, if she refused to have a clue about her brigade members' feelings? These are just suggestions, but there's a general lack of reflection on Haruhi's part that might well be fixed by adding something of the sort.

Ultimately a good benchmark would be -- say, imagine Kyon, I dunno, listening in on this retelling. Would he be particularly impressed that Haruhi is examining her own problems? Would Haruhi blush / shudder to realize Kyon had just heard all that and knew what she thought of her own actions? In a good way, or in a bad way?

[Arakawa]

It's a fine scene. I liked what it did for Koizumi quite a lot.

...

My first thought was that [Mikuru(big)] was faking it and manipulating Haruhi. It fit with how the entire chapter framed her character, and I could completely see her doing that.

I can honestly see it as being a bit of both. It's not that Koizumi's sentiment about treasuring his status as an esper is insincere; it's just that his motivation in voicing it is because it's the right thing to say that stops Haruhi, not because he wants to level with her. He's in the sort of tight spot where, if the correct thing to say to rein Haruhi in would instead have been some purely facetious BS, he would deliver purely facetious BS without hesitation. From his perspective, it's either that or the end of the universe.

So, this fic raises some thought provoking issues about how sincere the Brigade members are about belonging to it, vs. how much staying in the Brigade is just a matter of necessity for them. Ultimately, besides Haruhi, Kyon is the only one who's there purely because he wants to be (half the point of 'Disappearance' seems to be to establish this fact by showing that he was even willing to reject a 'sane' universe not ruled by Haruhi, just so he could stay with the Brigade).

[Muphrid]

In light of both your and Ana's earlier comments, I'd already committed to a considerable revisit of that first scene (which...maybe I can finish tonight).  Nevertheless, this gives me a better concrete idea of what doesn't work.

I don't think I'll respond in depth to this criticism, as I don't see any good coming of it when in posts, my first instinct will be to defend my intentions rather than, in the writing, to act on those criticisms and improve.  I will say that your specific comments, Arakawa, have given me a much clearer idea of what needs adjusting, and I thank you for that.

I do have one question, though:  basically, why Haruhi would hit Asahina (to make her contact come out) has always bothered me.  It almost stresses my own suspension of disbelief just to write it and acknowledge the canonical fact.  I can play it straight, as I did here, with Haruhi realizing that she was willfully blind and that she seized on an opportunity to needle Kyon, or I can take it one step further and have her know for a fact that those contacts won't fly out (which, while making the act even more monstrous, at least doesn't require a massive failure of basic knowledge on Haruhi's part).  I guess I'm curious what either of you (or anyone else) thinks of the different consequences that result from those interpretations.  I know that's a bit open-ended.

Given how much attention this opening scene has attracted, I'm also not sure if that means it's just too much of a lightning rod to be included--trying to reconcile a character at her objectively lowest point seems inherently...difficult.  I'm not sure all the extra effort to get that right is worth the focus that will be drawn from the rest of the chapter.  That said, I'd hoped that this introductory scene would serve to set the tone for the rest of the chapter, without which the intended message may no longer be clear (not that it's very clear right now to begin with).  So I guess I'm of two minds on that matter, as well.


Regarding Koizumi, I think this really depends on how sincere we judge him.  Haruhi's fear should (again, in theory, in principle) be that Koizumi has convinced himself he wants to stay even when he doesn't.  Koizumi may actually be lying and has only regained his composure after an outburst put him in a very precarious spot; I can definitely see that interpretation, but I do think that undercuts what little growth's he's had--from being this mysterious, conspiratorial dude to actually, maybe, possibly feeling like the brigade is his home and something he's actually loyal to.  Of course, all that talk may have been BS.  You can't really know with Koizumi.  Or I guess that's how I see things.


At any rate, I'm working on incorporating your specific remarks, Arakawa, into revising that opening scene, so thanks again for having the patience to do so despite an obviously flawed effort on my part.

[sarsaparilla]

I do have one question, though:  basically, why Haruhi would hit Asahina (to make her contact come out) has always bothered me.  It almost stresses my own suspension of disbelief just to write it and acknowledge the canonical fact.  I can play it straight, as I did here, with Haruhi realizing that she was willfully blind and that she seized on an opportunity to needle Kyon, or I can take it one step further and have her know for a fact that those contacts won't fly out (which, while making the act even more monstrous, at least doesn't require a massive failure of basic knowledge on Haruhi's part).  I guess I'm curious what either of you (or anyone else) thinks of the different consequences that result from those interpretations.

The way I see it is that at that point Haruhi was genuinely losing her ability to tell the difference between reality and fiction; this was well substantiated by other movie related incidents. Being a genre savvy character, she started to act like every trope she had ever seen was suddenly truth in television, and directed the movie accordingly.

I'm assuming that Haruhi had seen some slapstick comedy where a person was hit on the head so that his/her contact lens fell out, and failed to understand the side effects of such actions; the amount of things she fails to notice while directing the movie is truly staggering. So, while she keeps hitting Asahina there aren't any ulterior motives, she genuinely believes that she's invoking a valid trope and wonders why it doesn't work as intended.

When Kyon confronts her over this, she still doesn't see the real reason for Kyon's action, and replies without thinking, based on the perceived (emotional) issue that Kyon is defying her will. If Kyon had said: "Pigs don't fly", Haruhi would've replied: "I've decided that they do!" It's only when Kyon is about to hit her when she suddenly realizes that she has stepped out of the line, but she's still too proud to admit it, and instead gets angry. Brian analyzed this very aptly in The Apology.

I believe that this is the most benign possible interpretation of the event, and still leaves room for introspection if Haruhi makes a serious effort on recognizing her flaws.

[Muphrid]

Apologies for the lateness of this response.  Going elsewhere for holidays, especially where internet likes to be down more than up, isn't cool.  On the flip side, it's given me some time to ponder this a bit and come up with a tweaked approach.

I think, in large part, I agree with the preceding interpretation.  I can only believe that Haruhi really thought the contact would fly out like in a cartoon.  Anything else paints her in a very, very negative light.  Responding to Kyon as a challenge to her authority seems largely consistent as well.  The approach that seemed to mirror what Haruhi'd already done was for her to think she'd subconsciously put Asahina in compromised and revealing positions to needle Kyon, in doing so making the whole movie project become something incredibly mean-spirited and fake.  On balance, I don't know if I consider that the most likely possibility for how Haruhi would realize she'd done wrong, but it seemed to fit with the idea from last chapter, where Haruhi realizes she's deceived herself in going to the Piggy planet alone and not taking Kyon implicitly at his word.

So, thanks for that tidbit of insight (...was that a rimshot?).  It definitely helps me to see what elements of my approach are valid.

Anyway, here attached is a new revision, with the opening scene rewritten to some extent.  I tried to have Haruhi be more critical of herself in real time, as opposed to offloading that to the end of the passage.  In addition, I tried to change some emphasis throughout based on Arakawa's comment:

So, this fic raises some thought provoking issues about how sincere the Brigade members are about belonging to it, vs. how much staying in the Brigade is just a matter of necessity for them. Ultimately, besides Haruhi, Kyon is the only one who's there purely because he wants to be (half the point of 'Disappearance' seems to be to establish this fact by showing that he was even willing to reject a 'sane' universe not ruled by Haruhi, just so he could stay with the Brigade).

Indeed, this is basically what I've tried to keep coming back to, but the way you phrase it--as a necessity for them to stick around--is a particular detail of that issue that I'd neglected, and i found it very attractive when you mentioned it, so to an extent, I've tried to play that up here as a unifying theme.

Finally, there is one last issue I'd like to pick the brains of willing parties about:  the end of the story is fast approaching (really, I only expect two more chapters and an epilogue or thereabouts, though I know that the even the best-laid plans can be changed).  There are details in this chapter, in particular, that must be settled firmly as this is a point of no return.  So, I would welcome opinions on the following point, which regards some particulars about the ending.

Spoiler: ShowHide

This actually came up also due to Arakawa's comment.  I realized that, as long as Haruhi has powers, the others in the brigade (outside of Kyon) will be compelled in some way to stick around, and their freedom to choose is weakened.  This is by no means the only way they can be so freed, but it struck me as exceptionally simple.

With that in mind, for the ending I see three choices:

1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff.  Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.

2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented.  It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act.  A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along.  I'm not sure I want to stay that.  Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.

3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future.  This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless.  But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on.  Hence, I thought it worth considering..

I realize it may be difficult to evaluate the pros and cons of those choices without a more detailed view of what the ending is--that is, the circumstances surrounding these choices--and if needed, I can provide those details.  Alternatively, I can understand if asking this sort of open-ended question is not viewed well.  To me, the ending of a story is critically important.  I almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way.  Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.

Anyway, regardless of input or lack thereof on the topic above, let me thank you all again for what input you felt you could provide. I know I've made mistakes with this story, so I'm very appreciative of people's patience.

[Arakawa]

Okay, of course, I can't choose your ending for you. I can only say that Haruhi giving up her powers would be unsatisfying, probably because I've seen it done several times already. The other alternatives depend a lot more heavily on what your ending actually is. But in general, this seems a reasonable dilemma to be exploring, so I'm no longer worried that the ending is going to throw some unpleasant surprise my way...

EDIT: I guess the point is that Haruhi's choice is such a deep and personal interpretation issue, that it's hard to say much about it beyond "well, X resonates with me personally, Y doesn't". So your ending is going to have to be one which... hopefully... is the one that comes closest to satisfying you on a deep and personal level. It's hard to offer good advice on such a matter.

(Of course, I'm bumping up against the same sort of question with my own fic. To the point that the standard modus operandi of every single antagonist boils down to attempting to Hannibal Lecture Haruhi into misusing her powers. Well... what else can they do, really? In the end, my context for the question seems to be very different... but I'm certainly curious to see how it will be answered in your fic since it may very well give me an idea I hadn't considered previously.)

Although, personally, if I were in Haruhi's position in this particular fic?

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'd procrastinate, procrastinate, and eventually to get rid of the immediate pressure on me from the various Brigade factions freaking out, I'd be extremely tempted to cook up some convoluted fake crisis (you know the standard fanfiction drill -- I think 'Blunt Force Trauma' or maybe 'The Melancholy of Shinigami Ryuk' would probably both be straightforward examples -- Haruhi loses control of her powers and does something weird, situation comes to a crisis, the loose ends are tied up via the ever-convenient Haruhi Gets Amnesia thing... except nothing is actually at risk and Haruhi doesn't lose control of her powers and only pretends to get amnesia). Then the masquerade runs both ways, amusingly enough, and Haruhi has a, maybe, remote possibility of getting along with the faction members on the somewhat more even terms that had been developing prior to this whole 'Haruhi is now aware of her own powers' detour. Maybe there's a wink and a nudge to Kyon that Haruhi is still self-aware, or maybe she fully confides in him what she's doing and what she hopes to accomplish.

I don't know, that's a really weird and potentially squicky idea -- Haruhi deciding to hide behind the masquerade might be sort of unsympathetic depending on how it's justified. (It's sort of a deconstruction of the 'Haruhi fanfiction must always reset to status quo via increasingly implausible methods' thing, since it's only the appearance of status quo that's produced here). Maybe it's weird enough to nudge you into having some other idea you would not have had.

[Muphrid]

(Of course, I'm bumping up against the same sort of question with my own fic. To the point that the standard modus operandi of every single antagonist boils down to attempting to Hannibal Lecture Haruhi into misusing her powers. Well... what else can they do, really? In the end, my context for the question seems to be very different... but I'm certainly curious to see how it will be answered in your fic since it may very well give me an idea I hadn't considered previously.)

Seriously.  I was just thinking the other day about how much more difficult it is to write a Haruhi story with a serious antagonist without running into the trump card of Haruhi's powers and how to get around them.  Say you wanted a slider to be the principal enemy; you could, in principle, say that Haruhi's powers don't apply to matter from other universes, but that'd be an awfully convenient distinction.  Everything else requires subterfuge and deception and, well, at some point it just doesn't make sense to think that Haruhi will always be so vulnerable to such methods.  Eventually, she's going to catch on.

Regarding (spoiler) idea,

Spoiler: ShowHide

I do think that runs into good intentions versus the fridge horror of deceiving the rest of the brigade (whether Kyon is included in that or not).  But that could definitely be done with the setup I have in place.  I think the basic sentiment is sound--Haruhi should do something to relieve the members of the brigade of their obligations.  I think that's what I'll try to keep in mind.

[Arakawa]

Seriously.  I was just thinking the other day about how much more difficult it is to write a Haruhi story with a serious antagonist without running into the trump card of Haruhi's powers and how to get around them.  Say you wanted a slider to be the principal enemy; you could, in principle, say that Haruhi's powers don't apply to matter from other universes, but that'd be an awfully convenient distinction.  Everything else requires subterfuge and deception and, well, at some point it just doesn't make sense to think that Haruhi will always be so vulnerable to such methods.  Eventually, she's going to catch on.

Ah, thinking about it on the Slider Yutaka level? I guess the difficulty with that character is that the very idea requires her to be repeatedly successful in what she attempts, across multiple universes. When you remove that constraint, though, an antagonist no longer has to display magical aptitude for playing on Haruhi's negative aspects to be remotely plausible in their role. The fact that Haruhi is a force of reality not subject to anyone's control, doesn't mean that proud and foolish people aren't going to attempt to gain control of her anyways. Or to spar with her for even more petty reasons.

And when it's incredibly obvious that Haruhi is going to get what she wants sooner or later, the only way to stop her (whether or not you're an antagonist) becomes to make her question whether what she wants is really the right thing. The deception presented to Haruhi can have enough truth mixed into it that meaningful tension is created...

Or at least that's my medium-term line of thinking. Right now I still have to find the time to deal with my C&C backlog, then wrap up the convolutions of getting Mikuru that ice cream sandwich...

[Muphrid]

Ah, thinking about it on the Slider Yutaka level?

More or less.  I was thinking how much the recent trend of things seems to be to focus on the internal dynamics of the brigade in isolation as opposed to, say, how they respond to an external force.  Whether it's a slider or someone else, if it's brigade vs. (blank), the practical issues to challenging Haruhi's power are ever-present.  It may  be that any solution other than deception is contrived, and it's just the level of specificity, of how creative we as authors get to make such a method make sense, that makes the contrivance acceptable.  So really, I was thinking it's okay to give Haruhi absolute control over anything in this universe, but she can be threatened by things that are, er, outside this universe?

Eh, it's probably splitting hairs a bit too thin.  Any other physicist I know would probably say that such power violates the notion that matter and energy ought to be indistinguishable regardless of universe or some such.  You know, if stuff could travel between universes.

[Brian]

Hum.  I'm going to take a shot at this, but I still don't read this story (sorry); feel free to throw out all my commentary if it doesn't serve you.

Spoiler: ShowHide

1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff.  Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.

I think it can happen easily enough; Haruhi simply needs to learn the power of compromise over force (something I don't really recall you having Haruhi do/demonstrate a capacity for in this story as far as I read).  With that, she can use her powers to help her friends in ways they approve of/actually want.

2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented.  It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act.  A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along.  I'm not sure I want to stay that.  Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.

My gut reaction (considering, admittedly, my VERY biased perception on how you presented Haruhi, and the reason I had to step back) is to say that this is the best answer.  But that's incredibly biased.

Anyway.  There was a rant here, but I caught myself and deleted it.  bleah

Okay: I can't help but feel that Haruhi's powers honestly deny her any chance for adventure now that she has mastery over it.  There's nothing to challenge her, and she'll incredibly quickly grow bored, _especially_ with humanity.

Having her learn to curb herself (from your presentation of her) may also work in this front; she needs to assign herself arbitrary limitations in order to have any challenges to overcome.  Actually, I think Greg Zerich portrayed this pretty well in his Severance (though, I had some issues with Haruhi's behavior before that point; that's just me).

Looking for the stormclouds is great, and awesome.  I don't feel (again, personally), that Haruhi's behavior in your story actually demonstrates this well.  Instead of exploration, her approach tends to feel like escapism.  There's a compromise between these ideals, and I think she needs to find it if you don't want to go with this ending.

3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future.  This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless.  But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on.  Hence, I thought it worth considering..

I can actually see this working phenomenally.  In order for it to really work off, Haruhi has to judge herself incapable/irresponsible with her own powers, and set conditions that she has to meet in order to get them restored to her.  That way, she can tell her friends, "Yeah, the Yasumi-protocol will kick in if we're threatened, but I've locked away intentional access to my powers until I can handle them better, and they're not something that makes you terrified of things.  Let's talk things out on the level." or the like.

I almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way.  Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.

I think the only reason you're not sure what the ending is going to be is because I ranted at you one time too many. -_-

I apologize for that again Muphrid. :\

Anyway; you shouldn't feel bad about asking for help ... that's kind of what this section of SR is all about. :)

So.  I hope this is in some way helpful to you. :)

[Muphrid]

Hum.  I'm going to take a shot at this, but I still don't read this story (sorry); feel free to throw out all my commentary if it doesn't serve you.

By all means, I'm very appreciative.

Spoiler: ShowHide

1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff.  Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.

I think it can happen easily enough; Haruhi simply needs to learn the power of compromise over force (something I don't really recall you having Haruhi do/demonstrate a capacity for in this story as far as I read).  With that, she can use her powers to help her friends in ways they approve of/actually want.

Right, so, thinking about this more, I realize that this option is very execution dependent, even though it's the one I always intended (yes, even before the chapter four fiasco).  The allure of this scenario is that, if done correctly, it would be the ultimate uplifting ending:  Haruhi will have learned that these friendships and nurturing them are more important to her and that all the adventures and strange things in the world mean nothing if she doesn't have other people around her to share in them.  Keeping her powers and using them wisely is a mechanism to do that.  I say it's all execution dependent because it will take a very nuanced and precise approach to pull off.  It would be easy to get wrong.  That's my perception, at least.

2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented.  It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act.  A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along.  I'm not sure I want to stay that.  Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.

My gut reaction (considering, admittedly, my VERY biased perception on how you presented Haruhi, and the reason I had to step back) is to say that this is the best answer.  But that's incredibly biased.

Anyway.  There was a rant here, but I caught myself and deleted it.  bleah

Okay: I can't help but feel that Haruhi's powers honestly deny her any chance for adventure now that she has mastery over it.  There's nothing to challenge her, and she'll incredibly quickly grow bored, _especially_ with humanity.

Having her learn to curb herself (from your presentation of her) may also work in this front; she needs to assign herself arbitrary limitations in order to have any challenges to overcome.  Actually, I think Greg Zerich portrayed this pretty well in his Severance (though, I had some issues with Haruhi's behavior before that point; that's just me).

Looking for the stormclouds is great, and awesome.  I don't feel (again, personally), that Haruhi's behavior in your story actually demonstrates this well.  Instead of exploration, her approach tends to feel like escapism.  There's a compromise between these ideals, and I think she needs to find it if you don't want to go with this ending.

Right, so the appeal I perceive here is that Haruhi comes to a more definitive conclusion:  her powers are ultimately meaningless compred to the value of those friendships (which she should've valued more all along).  You hit on something very pertinent:  a total depowering leaves the group at the mercy of outside forces.  Certainly, even if the Entity is no longer interested in Haruhi, they may decide to have Nagato "repurposed" or some such for efficiency and Haruhi would be in no position to stop it.  Imposing a limitation would require some nuance, I guess.

3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future.  This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless.  But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on.  Hence, I thought it worth considering..

I can actually see this working phenomenally.  In order for it to really work off, Haruhi has to judge herself incapable/irresponsible with her own powers, and set conditions that she has to meet in order to get them restored to her.  That way, she can tell her friends, "Yeah, the Yasumi-protocol will kick in if we're threatened, but I've locked away intentional access to my powers until I can handle them better, and they're not something that makes you terrified of things.  Let's talk things out on the level." or the like.

So, in this sense, what's necessary for (2) not to leave the brigade open starts running together with (3).  I think I have a pretty clear idea of how this can be pulled off, too.  A Haruhi depowered but with some sort of emergency button in place gives her the chance to renew these friendships under totally open and honest terms, where the threat she poses doesn't compel Nagato, Asahina, and Koizumi to stick around out of necessity.  I guess I just want to make sure the decision isn't undercut by the stopgap in any way.

As you may have noticed, I'm still kind of talking this out to myself, too.

I almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way.  Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.

I think the only reason you're not sure what the ending is going to be is because I ranted at you one time too many. -_-

I apologize for that again Muphrid. :\

Anyway; you shouldn't feel bad about asking for help ... that's kind of what this section of SR is all about. :)

No worries.  As I said, it's something I should've considered before, and Arakawa's comment really got me thinking about it.  I know you've been soured on this story, and I'm just hoping to learn enough and be more analytical and critical of myself to avoid that with future stories.

So.  I hope this is in some way helpful to you. :)

Indeed, thanks for the help, Brian.  I think, thanks to you and Arakawa, I'm getting a better idea of what I want to do going forward, but it may still take some hard thinking.

[Muphrid]

Here we are again.  I've still been a bit concerned about how everything fits together in chapter seven, but I didn't want to let that hold me up as far as getting along, so here is a draft of chapter eight.  I will probably end up writing chapter nine and the epilogue together, since there's a lot of interaction there with how things play out.  Thanks again for all the help and input folks were able to provide on seven and the greater issues incurred there.