[Haruhi] Sympathy

[Brian]

If my proposed compromise of Haruhi catching herself from striking Kyon wasn't adequate, Yuki catching her won't be, either. :/

And this is't like Sigh...; I don't particulalry want to evoke that.

[Brian]

Oh, I do believe that the ending is positive, the only real issue is the slap that felt like ... a slap on the face, to be honest. The rest is that instead of a 'happy' ending it's more like "we've messed up badly and aren't even sure in which ways exactly, but let's at least try to fix things from now on -- together". I was just suspecting that the mess is rather more severe than the ending would suggest.

I wasn't in an ideal state to catch this last night--  I asked some questions I guess you don't want to answer, but I have to try one last time:

What can be done to make it 'happy'?

[Grahf]

If my proposed compromise of Haruhi catching herself from striking Kyon wasn't adequate, Yuki catching her won't be, either. :/

And this is't like Sigh...; I don't particulalry want to evoke that.

Fair enough.

It's kind of distressing to see you struggling with this to such a great extent. I know that at this point you've decided not to have her become physically violent, but I felt that the slap wasn't misplaced given the circumstances. I mean, yes Haruhi is the kind of person that gets quiet and brooding when she's unhappy, but at this point her mindset is that this was entirely Kyon just sitting back with full awareness watching her flail around and be generally distressed and then almost die. You can't honestly expect someone who's been through all of that to be completely reasonable, or even willing to stop for a moment and consider that their actions might not be the best idea given the circumstances.

It is your work of course, and how it ultimately ends up is your choice, but I think that to a great extent that you're giving yourself undue stress. I know this is probably coming off as really preachy, and I apologize for that, but I felt it needed to be said.

[Brian]

After the last day, I don't honestly feel any emotional investment in the work.  It all blew away somehow, and now it's just a thing.

I'm only able to look at it from a purely technical standpoint because what was most important to me about it failed.  I really need to rely on input from others to figure out where it goes from here, since I'm personally burnt out on it.


But I think I should sleep first.

[sarsaparilla]

Brian, the problem is that all the icky stuff is crammed in the last chapter, and it takes the focus away from what should be the most important issue, i.e., Haruhi's and Kyon's relationship and how the latest events have affected it. There are only two directions in which the unfortunate implications can be pushed. If they could be handled during the actual story there would have to be at least another Endless Eight and Disappearance, and that is not feasible with the given scope. The other direction is to push them forward, to the unwritten but implied part of the story, and I believe that it could be done without excessive effort, just by refocusing the final discussion from the implications into the relationship itself.

If Kyon and Haruhi compared their respective experiences through dialogue, they could both find a closer connection to each other and more easily accept the ordeal ... as in feeling sympathy for each other when they see that they have indeed walked a mile in each other's shoes. Second, more than deep philosophical questions concerning the nature of parallel worlds Kyon should be worrying about future in general, as the whole canon is based on the idea that untold misfortune will follow if Haruhi ever becomes aware of the powers and therefore she must be kept in dark. Well, now the cat is out of the bag and Kyon has a very good reason to be concerned about that, which gives them an opportunity to express trust in each other -- that together they will overcome whatever difficulties there are ahead. The unfortunate implications could be pretty much left out of the discussion, and only mentioned in passing, as in Kyon noticing how fine a mess they've managed to get themselves into this time. However, when that is said after assuring that they will find a way, somehow, to set it right, the final note can be significantly more upbeat and positive.

Other than that I ... seem to have a singularly negative influence on this whole thread, which means that I should remove myself from any further discussions. My apologies for any harm done. -_-

[Brian]

Okay.  Apologies for the drama.

It took some serious searching, but I believe I found the compromise to finish this (and mostly recovered from the depression).

(Aside, the criticism: "This is really a bit overambitious," would really have explained things in a simple way that didn't also exacerbate my self-loathing.)

So--  Haruhi can't slap Kyon, touching on the alternate worlds at all is too much, Yuki shouldn't be taken over by the IDSE in the prologue, etc. etc.

I think I can just simplify the ending even further -- cut Yuki out, too; she's not needed to stop the slap, and evidently some people didn't like her being there (I can see that she didn't add much to the final scene, I guess) -- and present about ... half of chapter seven as an epilogue.  They can leave off with the vow to fix things without going into details.  They were never that critical anyway, and I can see how it's a shift.

This leaves the ending open for me to take as optimistically as I originally liked, and someone else to see it as something they might appreciate.


Thoughts?

[JonBob]

The slap might have been a bit much, but it is Haruhi, and she's rather physical, so it didn't trigger any alerts from me. But, I tend to take a lot w/o many alerts.

If you're getting rid of the alternate worlds, then getting rid of Yuki is fine as well. The original idea of "multiple worlds = multiple guilt for kyon" can logically lead into keeping Yuki around, but without that basis, yeah, she's a bit out of place.

[Muphrid]

These thoughts look reasonable to me.  I admit, I liked that Kyon had a soft spot for Nagato and wanted to preserve her, but it probably makes the most sense to cut her from that conversation, I agree.

[Brian]

I'll see if there's room for Kyon to mention a soft-spot for Yuki....  Actually, I think I can see how that might work.  What about....

Haruhi can read the regret on his face before Kyon takes them to the halfway-house, and put two-and-two together during his narration of the novels (and I still like that aspect a bit).  She can understand how he feels and compare it to the way she's seen him look at his sister, so it doesn't come across as romantic interest, and just make a note that Haruhi can sympathize with his feelings and be interested in wanting to help him treat her as a friend.  I'm sure someone would comment that this doesn't (directly) do anything for alt!Yuki, but more than that would take away from the intentional ambiguity I'll be striving for.

[Brian]

I've removed Yuki attacking Kyon in the prologue, and also going with Kyon/Haruhi in chapter six.


Plans moving forward:

* Fujisawa makes notes for the rewrite.
<Fujisawa> I wonder if I spend more time rewriting ... than writing?
* Oroboro shrugs
<@Yukari-sama> I don't think you need a large-scale rewrite here, though.
<Oroboro> Makes sense kind of. I mean, when writing you can just transcribe everything that's already in your head, re-writing requires you to analyze everything carefully.
<Fujisawa> Nah.  Just trimmed Yuki attacking Kyon out of the prologue.
<Fujisawa> And bringing her along in chapter 6.
* @Yukari-sama nods.
<Fujisawa> I expect most of the chapter 7 revisions will just be cutting out the 'overly optimistic' aspects and leaving them implied instead of stated.
<Oroboro> Am I the only one who didn't see a problem with the slap. Maybe it's just me. >_>
<@Yukari-sama> I don't see an issue with it either.
<@Yukari-sama> From Haruhi's perspective, she (or at least an aspect of her) was on the point of being killed about ten minutes prior, and she's got sufficient evidence to blame it on Kyon.
<@Yukari-sama> I'd slap him too, if it was me. <_<
* Fujisawa actually really liked the knee-jerk slap, and apology kiss; felt true to Haruhi, personally.
<Fujisawa> Is she typically violent?  No.  But as Yukari-sama says, it felt justified from her perspective.
<Fujisawa> I don't know.  Maybe toning it down to thinking really hard about slapping him, but restraining herself because of the power could work, too--  Then it's just harsh words, and the kiss is to lift him up when he's depressed and she finds out the truth.
<@Yukari-sama> Shouldn't be a democratic writing process, but if it was I'd definitely vote towards keeping the slap. Haruhi's extremely impulsive, so stopping to think there seems OOC to me.
<Oroboro> Kyon seemed to think he deserved it too. Everyone makes mistakes, and can do things in anger or in haste that they regret. It's what they do about it after words that really counts
<Fujisawa> Okay.
<@Yukari-sama> Dunno if you still have it, but I'd still stick with my original suggestion. She slaps impulsively, Kyon takes the hit, she's still angry and raises her hand to hit him again, maybe she sees him cringe (but not turn away) and -then- she reconsiders.
<@Yukari-sama> But that's only a maybe. Could be a way of getting that second raised hand to turn into kissing him though.
<Muphrid> I just thought the ordering could be adjusted; she seems to start understanding his perspective, and then she slaps him.
<Fujisawa> So she should slap him first, then start _really_ putting things together and stop herself?
<Fujisawa> That flows.
<Muphrid> I think so?
<@Yukari-sama> Yeah.
<Fujisawa> Okay.  I like that.

[Brian]

Okay--  Revisions of prologue, chapters 6, and the epilogue posted.

I think the new epilogue works.  Longer than I anticipated; let me know if anything doesn't work.

Edit: Helps if I say where they're posted; check the first post of the thread, sorry. >_<

[Empyrean]

So, just finished reading this, time for feedback.  But first, a correction:

Speaking of timelines, I'm not thrilled about the idea of talking with Mikuru so soon ... but running from that won't get us anywhere. It'd be unreasonable not to try and give her the same chance that I want to give Koizumi-kun and Mikuru, anyway.

They want to try to give Mikuru the same chance they're giving Koizumi and Mikuru?  Either time travel is involved here or that's just a typo to correct.

Overall, I liked it.  Some quibbles, though.

I actually liked the reversal of power in Haruhi and Kyon's relationship.  That got me more interested in the story, and I liked seeing Kyon as the Ace instead of Haruhi, and her having to deal with that.  That's a good step in building sympathy for Kyon from her perspective, and it's touched on well at the end where she complains about how everything was just given to her.  Kyon catching her hand when she goes for his tie was satisfying, and serves to highlight the shift in Ace status to Kyon.

For the first couple of chapters and the last chapter or two was when Haruhi was the most sympathetic for me as a reader.  In the middle, the instant she blew off Nagato's interest in the library she stopped being likeable until she was attacked by Asakura.  That's probably just because Nagato is such an epic woobie, and Haruhi seemed petty and vindictive toward her after being told that Nagato is an alien.  It makes Haruhi come across as a jerk, but that's what she was like in canon so I can't fault you for that.  She acted the same way toward Mikuru, but that was a lot more justified since Mikuru is basically a manipulative bitch in this version.  It was interesting at first seeing her actually acting on her own instead of just being Haruhi's toy, but that wore thin when it was apparent she wasn't a very nice person.  I suppose that contributes to Haruhi's frustration and the conclusion of the story, but jerk!Mikuru isn't something that Kyon had to deal with, so I'm not sure if it really fits the theme of understanding each other's experiences and circumstances better.

I didn't have any issues with Haruhi slapping Kyon.  She thought he had put her life in danger basically just for the hell of it, and all this time knew the truth when she didn't and kept it from her.  I think it's in character for her and understandable since she just had her fight or flight response kicked into overdrive not thirty seconds before.  Restraint just wouldn't make sense at that point.  It's still the wrong thing to do, but I think it's an understandable reaction considering her circumstances and state of mind at the time.

Just before the solution of sharing power to act as mutual failsafes was presented, I had a thought about how awesome it would be if they implemented that exact solution to deal with the power imbalance in their relationship.  So that was pretty neat, and it addressed one of the issues that's always bothered me a little in the back of my head in the original story.  Haruhi isn't in the dark any more, and doesn't have absolute power over Kyon, so a working relationship is actually possible.  Side effects include teleporting into compromising positions, but that's funny anyway. :)

[Brian]

Oops--  Yes, that's a typo.  It should also be 'thinking' instead of 'speaking. >.<

Mikuru being manipulative and unlikable isn't a direct parallel to Kyon's situation, you're right.  Then again, Haruhi's behavior isn't a direct parallel to Kyon's, either.  Kyon's generally passive and amiable; at the start of Melancholy, Haruhi's more aggressive and demanding.  I don't think there's a way to write something that perfectly reverses their situations, but I felt this was reasonably close while feeling true to their characters.

I personally liked the last chapter/epilogue, because I wanted to show that (even though she's frequently shown as not being able to) Haruhi does grow and learn.  She didn't have time in the Melancholy arc, but once she had all her memories returned....  Anyway -- the ideal of a true compromise, and that she'd share the power with Kyon without reservation -- and use that to try and fix tings -- were the most appealing parts of the story for me.

It's a pity I let myself veer into that 'prevent all of the fridge horror' tangent; too much wishful thinking.  This ending feels more plausible and grounded, without ruling out the possibility that something like that could happen down the line anyway -- so I'm glad you enjoyed it, as well.

It's a pity that the segments between Yuki's revelation and Asakura's fell flat for you, since that is about half of the story, though.  :x

Thanks for the feedback! :)

[Empyrean]

I think you found a different typo than the one I was alluding to.  The sentence seems to imply that they want to give Mikuru the same chance that they gave Mikuru and Koizumi, which is a little weird.  I suspect you meant to say Nagato and Koizumi.

But yeah, I kind of had to drag myself through most of the part in the middle (although the bit with Koizumi in closed space was better, since Haruhi wasn't acting out of petty spite), but I figured it would end on a positive note and it would be worth it.  Which is was.  You've inspired some expectations of happy endings in this reader, so a story that is depressing or has an unsympathetic portrayal of a character in the middle doesn't just get dropped.  Faith rewarded once again.

Edit: In a sense that's a failure for a story but a success for the writer.  I think if it were just some story I picked up someplace, I'd have lost interest halfway through since it looked like it was heading for a depressing end with Haruhi turning on the brigade or just alienating herself with her vindictiveness and seeming paranoia from Kyon's perspective.  Since it was you who was writing it, I went into it with a different set of expectations for the story to redeem itself by the end, which it did.  Mixed praise, I suppose.

[Brian]

Er, sorry--  Yes, I caught the typo you referenced, and another in the same line. :p

Hmm.  Not sure how to feel about it being readable only because I wrote it.  Kind of flattering, but also suggests the story can't stand on its own.  Then again, maybe it's a subjective thing.