[Haruhi] Shuffle!

[Brian]

This is an AU story that's aiming for humor.  We know what that means.

The ending is especially rushed; stayed up ... mmm ... far too late making myself finish this to defeat writer's block.  Tomorrow's going to be interesting. :)

I hope you enjoy!

[thepanda]

After a full evening to thing about things

First thing should be think.

"Ah, come on," he complains to an known listener

Should be 'unknown'

It works, for a one shot. It moves a brisk pace, the jokes don't run overly long, and I can't decide which is funnier; Taniguchi in general or "Are you seriously telling me that you keep Sasaki calm? That you have to fight her wild emotions?" I ask, bewildered."

[Jon]

This is one of the more entertaining Suzumiya/Asahina matchups.

[Brian]

It works, for a one shot. It moves a brisk pace, the jokes don't run overly long, and I can't decide which is funnier; Taniguchi in general or "Are you seriously telling me that you keep Sasaki calm? That you have to fight her wild emotions?" I ask, bewildered."

Thanks for catching those grammar issues.  I had the most fun writing Chronoguchi and Achahina; really wanted a bit more to do with Suou.

This is one of the more entertaining Suzumiya/Asahina matchups.

Well, it doesn't step on the Kyon/Haruhi relationship, since that doesn't exist (in the same form) here.  I was personally a bit more interested in the Sasaki/Kyon angle, though. :p

In general, I want to work on my representation of Sasaki, as I feel it's a bit weak. :x

Anyway!  Sounds like you two had fun, so that part was a success! :D

[Arakawa]

Between this and my Doctor Who fic I've realized Haruhi makes a very convincing alien.

I had the most fun writing Chronoguchi

My reaction (similarly to NG+): hahahahahahugggggghatehatehatehahahahahilarious. I guess that's in the ballpark of what you intended.

On a sidenote: Taniguchi says 'eh?' a lot and it really doesn't fit the character. It makes him sound much more earnest and laid back than he actually is.

and Achahina; really wanted a bit more to do with Suou.

Re Achahina and KBDH!Achakura: I sincerely applaud your valiant but ultimately doomed attempts to turn vapid Japanese YouTube memes into valid fanfiction ideas.

In general, I want to work on my representation of Sasaki, as I feel it's a bit weak. :x

I'd agree with that assessment. Your version sounds not enough like the Sasaki in the books (who keeps giving me this weird vibe like she's one of the nonhuman characters - I don't know, something about her is firmly in the Uncanny Valley) and too much like this one person I have coffee with once in a while.

So your Sasaki is a good person to have coffee with and not so much a good person to be standing in for novel!Sasaki :-)

The closest you came to capturing in-novel Sasaki (albeit via an extremely flanderized fan service joke) was her "okay, now that the weird reality warping stuff is taken care of, we can move on to the actually important stuff, namely homework" moment at the end.

[sarsaparilla]

I found it humorous, not in a 'riotous laughter' sense, but in a well tempered, intellectual way that arose from the discrepancy between the personalities of the original and the new cast. I assume that you went for a bit of exaggeration with the personalities to make it easier to spot the answer -- some of them were very obvious, some others a bit harder until I figured out the size of the pool of potential candidates.

Concerning Sasaki in particular, I think that you have managed to capture her dutiful, tolerant and considerate side very well. Beyond that she has clear philosophical tendencies. An introvert, she lives primarily in a world of ideas, interconnections and principles, but she also has a very keen eye on small details and human psychology in general. In the MBTI test I would probably peg her as an INFJ. I have seen it suggested that she might have covert schizoid tendencies: a lower than normal sense of entitlement, a need to keep other people at a 'safe' distance emotionally, and an inability/difficulty to openly express strong emotions, especially anger.

[Arakawa]

It may or may not help to understand Sasaki by comparing her to real-world Bayesian rationalists like Eliezer Yudkowsky. Who are completely different because Bayesian rationalists strike me as being mostly on crack...

(remember that Yudkowsky fic where Kyon announces to Haruhi that she's God, tells her basically that she's directly responsible for every single death that's ever happened, and then jumps off a skyscraper to further drive home the point? Yeeeaaaah.)

... and Sasaki clearly isn't anything like that (or even at all Bayesian), but they share a certain... I don't even know how to put it. Disdain for wishful thinking maybe? To such an extent that 'normal people' feel sort of alienated by their way of looking at things.

I don't know, can we continue discussing Sasaki on the 'Character Discussion' thread as opposed to here? I'll summarize my basic points there.

EDIT: link to Character Studies thread for the ultra-lazy http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101851.0.html

[Brian]

Between this and my Doctor Who fic I've realized Haruhi makes a very convincing alien.

Haruhi can be a convincing anything, I expect, up and including a normal girl (though I expect that'd be the hardest thing for her to pull off; she only does it a little in book one, when investigating Ryouko).

My reaction (similarly to NG+): hahahahahahugggggghatehatehatehahahahahilarious. I guess that's in the ballpark of what you intended.

Which part did you hate?

If it was Chronoguchi's timeline explanation, that part was ... a bit difficult to write. >_>

On a sidenote: Taniguchi says 'eh?' a lot and it really doesn't fit the character. It makes him sound much more earnest and laid back than he actually is.

Meant to come across as more of a generic noise, like 'huh?'  I can probably replace most of them with, 'Am I right?' or the like.

Re Achahina and KBDH!Achakura: I sincerely applaud your valiant but ultimately doomed attempts to turn vapid Japanese YouTube memes into valid fanfiction ideas.

I'm doing nothing of the sort intentionally.  If it's happening, that's a bonus;  this really just is the narrative voice I use.

I actually talk the same way I write; Drac can tell you how disconcerting this is in person.  :)

I'd agree with that assessment. Your version sounds not enough like the Sasaki in the books (who keeps giving me this weird vibe like she's one of the nonhuman characters - I don't know, something about her is firmly in the Uncanny Valley) and too much like this one person I have coffee with once in a while.

So your Sasaki is a good person to have coffee with and not so much a good person to be standing in for novel!Sasaki :-)

The closest you came to capturing in-novel Sasaki (albeit via an extremely flanderized fan service joke) was her "okay, now that the weird reality warping stuff is taken care of, we can move on to the actually important stuff, namely homework" moment at the end.

Okay, that lets me know I missed the mark.  I focused on Sasaki's temperment (that she's typically calm), rationality, and good-nature.

I missed some things:

I found it humorous, not in a 'riotous laughter' sense, but in a well tempered, intellectual way that arose from the discrepancy between the personalities of the original and the new cast. I assume that you went for a bit of exaggeration with the personalities to make it easier to spot the answer -- some of them were very obvious, some others a bit harder until I figured out the size of the pool of potential candidates.

It only occured to me after the fact that it could have been much simpler if I had tried:
Haruhi <--> Mikuru
Yuki <--> Koizumi

And then I wouldn't have had to leave Yuki and Koizumi out.  But ... I wouldn't want to apply the jokes I used for Taniguchi to anyone else, and I liked using Kuyou.  Hmm.

That's about the humor I was aiming for (though, I'd like to rely less on fanservice in the future...).  My humor writing tends to be weak, so aiming for 'amusing' instead of 'hilarious' is probably good for me right now. :)

Concerning Sasaki in particular, I think that you have managed to capture her dutiful, tolerant and considerate side very well. Beyond that she has clear philosophical tendencies. An introvert, she lives primarily in a world of ideas, interconnections and principles, but she also has a very keen eye on small details and human psychology in general. In the MBTI test I would probably peg her as an INFJ. I have seen it suggested that she might have covert schizoid tendencies: a lower than normal sense of entitlement, a need to keep other people at a 'safe' distance emotionally, and an inability/difficulty to openly express strong emotions, especially anger.

Okay; excellent.  I can write characters better once I have a good grasp of their dysfunctions.

Your observations sound right to me; I'll have to look into that a bit more (and probably retake that test to remember where I am; it's been a while.  Heh).

Based on what you point out here, Sasaki should have been focused more on the psychology behind the interactions rather than the interactions themselves (which makes her reaction to Kuyou kissing Kyon somewhat fuzzy, but I can ... probably get away with that since she likes Kyon in this story).  Still, something to keep in mind.

It may or may not help to understand Sasaki by comparing her to real-world Bayesian rationalists like Eliezer Yudkowsky. Who are completely different because Bayesian rationalists strike me as being mostly on crack...

(remember that Yudkowsky fic where Kyon announces to Haruhi that she's God, tells her basically that she's directly responsible for every single death that's ever happened, and then jumps off a skyscraper to further drive home the point? Yeeeaaaah.)

So much hate.  That was terrible, and my greatest irritation about it is the following two points:
No one in canon actually believes that Haruhi is literally God (even Koizumi, who presents it as an idea of characters in the Organization that are never introduced).
No one in canon should have been that dedicated to the Christian ideal of God specifically (and especially not Kyon).

Beyond that, yeah, Kyon's insanely OOC to force such a horrific thing on Haruhi.  ò_ó

Grrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

... and Sasaki clearly isn't anything like that (or even at all Bayesian), but they share a certain... I don't even know how to put it. Disdain for wishful thinking maybe? To such an extent that 'normal people' feel sort of alienated by their way of looking at things.

Both Sasaki and Haruhi were characterized by their classmates as 'weird girls', if for different reasons.

I don't know, can we continue discussing Sasaki on the 'Character Discussion' thread as opposed to here? I'll summarize my basic points there.

EDIT: link to Character Studies thread for the ultra-lazy http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101851.0.html

Absolutely. :)

[Arakawa]

Meant to come across as more of a generic noise, like 'huh?'  I can probably replace most of them with, 'Am I right?' or the like.

That sounds more like Taniguchi (at least as he's being rendered in the anime by Shiraishi Minoru).

Please change that. It's particularly jarring to someone like me who lives in Canada :-) The point about usage of 'eh?' in Canada is that you don't actually hear it that often in most circles. When you do hear it, it signals some fairly specific things, and I just can't imagine Taniguchi successfully signalling them in that context. If he tried, it would sound forced, in a way that you can't easily convey in text without switching to extremely jarring all capital letters, like if Taniguchi kept doing this, EH???!!! You'd understand exactly why Kyon hates him, EH??!!

You get the idea. Since you're not using all caps, giving the content of his lecture, it sounds either like he's successfully worming himself into Kyon's confidence, or Kyon is overreacting.

That was mostly the source of my 'hatehatehate'. That and the birthmark, but the birthmark part was completely intentional :-)

I'm doing nothing of the sort intentionally.  If it's happening, that's a bonus;  this really just is the narrative voice I use.

I think you misunderstood. It's not a question of narrative voice, I was saluting the fact that you're taking one-dimensional chibi fanservice characters and trying to give plausible in-story justifications for why they would exist in the first place.

So much hate.  That was terrible, and my greatest irritation about it is the following two points:
No one in canon actually believes that Haruhi is literally God (even Koizumi, who presents it as an idea of characters in the Organization that are never introduced).
No one in canon should have been that dedicated to the Christian ideal of God specifically (and especially not Kyon).

Beyond that, yeah, Kyon's insanely OOC to force such a horrific thing on Haruhi.  ò_ó

Grrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

Yeah, wow, your ff.net review was about 500% nicer than your opinion here. But yeah, Yudkowsky has a talent for taking characters and turning them into extremely wooden and unlikeable mouthpieces for his worldview. His Harry Potter fic does that in spades (and Harry isn't exactly a likeable character to begin with).

I'm not so sure Yudkowsky knows what he's doing either... if he was so Bayesian he'd figure out what exactly about his viewpoint makes people instantly (and even somewhat unfairly) classify him as a complete ** and figure out some way to compensate for it. He has his Harry Potter character actually do that (expend energy specifically into getting people to respect him), but it becomes painfully apparent the author doesn't understand how that kind of thing actually works in real life. I guess if he did he'd be far too busy taking over the world with his pet Friendly AI or something.

[Other Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality quibble is that his method to get Draco to try to accept that the scientific method gives sufficient justification to consider 'mudbloods' a superstition, is exactly the method that doesn't work. My Yudkowsky-fan friend claims it's because Harry was actually planning to turn Draco into a fervent denialist all along in order to accomplish some Master Manipulator stuff. Yeah, because Harry would have amassed that much experience thinking ahead during interactions with bigoted magical nobility while living in suburban Britain with his physicist parents :-/]

And if Yudkowsky was a serious AI researcher (an extremely rare and reportedly beautiful creature actually, much like the unicorn), he'd have more respect for his own reputation and he'd *first* learn to write properly under some pseudonym ;-) before embarrassing himself under his real name.

My least favourite aspect of that Haruhi fic isn't the BayesianSingularity stuff (I knew exactly what to expect there, I was just sort of surprised that he chose to target the Haruhi fandom), but the moment where Haruhi puts on a blouse that reveals her cleavage (or the chest just above her cleavage or whatever). At which point it becomes apparent (if the Christianity/God stuff didn't make that painfully obvious) that he isn't even trying to identify and be consistent with how different cultures work. Not that you wouldn't see that kind of blouse in Japan somewhere, just not on Haruhi, not in that context...

I'm actually considering doing an even more detailed dissection of "Riddle of Kyon" in the reviews section, to analyze how it works as an evangelism piece for Singularitarianism (what about for Bayesianism? not so much), and completely fails to work as a story...

[Brian]

You get the idea. Since you're not using all caps, giving the content of his lecture, it sounds either like he's successfully worming himself into Kyon's confidence, or Kyon is overreacting.

That was mostly the source of my 'hatehatehate'. That and the birthmark, but the birthmark part was completely intentional :-)

Yeah, the birthmark part was intentional.

For the other, I was intenting it as more the Americanized shorthand for 'hey?' which is basically a 'ya know?', etc., so I'll go with 'am I right' etc.  I can see how it might not otherwise work so well. :p

I think you misunderstood. It's not a question of narrative voice, I was saluting the fact that you're taking one-dimensional chibi fanservice characters and trying to give plausible in-story justifications for why they would exist in the first place.

Oh.  Yeah, totally misunderstood.

...though, lampshading is reflexive on my part, too. >_>

Grrrr....  But, Eliezer Yudkowsky knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote it. =_=

Yeah, wow, your ff.net review was about 500% nicer than your opinion here. But yeah, Yudkowsky has a talent for taking characters and turning them into extremely wooden and unlikeable mouthpieces for his worldview. His Harry Potter fic does that in spades (and Harry isn't exactly a likeable character to begin with).

On good days, I can resist being incredibly rude. ._.

I'm not so sure Yudkowsky knows what he's doing either... if he was so Bayesian he'd figure out what exactly about his viewpoint makes people instantly (and even somewhat unfairly) classify him as a complete ** and figure out some way to compensate for it. He has his Harry Potter character actually do that (expend energy specifically into getting people to respect him), but it becomes painfully apparent the author doesn't understand how that kind of thing actually works in real life. I guess if he did he'd be far too busy taking over the world with his pet Friendly AI or something.

When I said that, though, about him knowing what he was doing, I meant (being really rude to him here): He was trolling/attacking people for enjoying in such simple, happy premises, because SCIENCE IS TRUTH.  In other words, that's an athiest's view of the logical conclusion of Haruhi (and we should feel bad for enjoying it, stupid magic-thinking people!).

He actually sent me a private e-mail not long ago about K:BDH, and commented on ... At a Glance before that -- this is the sum of my interactions with him.  He liked At a Glance, praising it for not using magic effectively (his review's still there on ff.net; very short).  For K:BDH, he told me in several places where I had made mistakes he hadn't in Methods of Rationality, (and that he'd also got them 'right' in his real life, just for my information (thanks, guy ... I don't have a problem with fictional harems; I don't want to know about your 'real' one)).

I tried to be polite ... I just thought it was funny he criticized me, "You broke the first rule of fanfiction; you gave Kyon a lightsaber without giving Ryouko the deathstar!"  Which ... eh.  But this is a digression.

And if Yudkowsky was a serious AI researcher (an extremely rare and reportedly beautiful creature actually, much like the unicorn), he'd have more respect for his own reputation and he'd *first* learn to write properly under some pseudonym ;-) before embarrassing himself under his real name.

Well, he can be capable as a scientist and unlikable as a person.

Consider it a sort of super-magnified aspergers.  Scientifically/technically skilled > even more socially/morally shifted from the norm.

I'm actually considering doing an even more detailed dissection of "Riddle of Kyon" in the reviews section, to analyze how it works as an evangelism piece for Singularitarianism (what about for Bayesianism? not so much), and completely fails to work as a story...

Go nuts!  That's probably the best place to continue those parts of this discussion.

[Arakawa]

When I said that, though, about him knowing what he was doing, I meant (being really rude to him here): He was trolling/attacking people for enjoying in such simple, happy premises, because SCIENCE IS TRUTH.  In other words, that's an athiest's view of the logical conclusion of Haruhi (and we should feel bad for enjoying it, stupid magic-thinking people!).

I don't think any rational person would want to spend their time trolling, if they were being forced to think seriously. I can understand a forum troll who isn't thinking about what they want to be doing with their life, but since the guy is supposed to be Bayesian he has actually no excuse.

So essentially what you perceive it as is that he is attacking people with this fic -- not for believing in God and magic, but for *reading stories* in which fantastical elements are used as *devices* to explore interesting human issues? Because ? If so, he has effectively defeated the entire point of atheism (not wasting precious brain cells on God or other metaphysical propositions irrelevant to day-to-day life) in favour of merely rerouting his fundamentalism circuitry to defend the metaphysical proposition that God doesn't exist. Most of the atheists I actually know are people who have succumbed to this particular fallacy.

I'm going to be charitable on this point and assume that he's not that much of a troll and maybe even not that much of a raging-fundamentalist-atheist (I'm deluding myself now, aren't I?) and the fic is just an ill-conceived, aspergery thought experiment.

(thanks, guy ... I don't have a problem with fictional harems; I don't want to know about your 'real' one)

Really? He ended up trying to sell himself to you as an authority on polyamory? That's... absolutely hilarious.

Yudkowsky is probably the last blogger I'd expect to be giving anyone advice on getting laid. Give me Steve Pavlina any time. Or at least (bleah) Roissy.

Well, he can be capable as a scientist and unlikable as a person.

Your last ditch attempt to be polite and defend him on that point ('hey, at least he's a scientist') seems to have pushed a button in me. I... wrote a long rant about this issue which was so angry and vitriolic that if I were a mod I'd consider banning myself from the forum for posting it. Especially since it no longer has anything to do with fanfiction. You can probably imagine most of it for yourself.

I think I'll go take a cold shower and then get drunk^H^H^H^H think about something more positive.

EDIT: hey, I just got a hilarious Madoka fic idea as a direct result of getting myself angry at this **hole. So I get to skip the getting drunk part now :-)))

[Brian]

I don't think any rational person would want to spend their time trolling, if they were being forced to think seriously. I can understand a forum troll who isn't thinking about what they want to be doing with their life, but since the guy is supposed to be Bayesian he has actually no excuse.

So essentially what you perceive it as is that he is attacking people with this fic -- not for believing in God and magic, but for *reading stories* in which fantastical elements are used as *devices* to explore interesting human issues? Because ? If so, he has effectively defeated the entire point of atheism (not wasting precious brain cells on God or other metaphysical propositions irrelevant to day-to-day life) in favour of merely rerouting his fundamentalism circuitry to defend the metaphysical proposition that God doesn't exist. Most of the atheists I actually know are people who have succumbed to this particular fallacy.

I'm going to be charitable on this point and assume that he's not that much of a troll and maybe even not that much of a raging-fundamentalist-atheist (I'm deluding myself now, aren't I?) and the fic is just an ill-conceived, aspergery thought experiment.

I often see malice when it isn't there; this is a side-effect of my rage disorder.

So, I could just be very offended and be over-projecting (hence my attempting to be a devil's advocate on the issue).

Really? He ended up trying to sell himself to you as an authority on polyamory? That's... absolutely hilarious.

Seriously. -_-

I'm not even interested in the regular kind, why would I possibly....

Your last ditch attempt to be polite and defend him on that point ('hey, at least he's a scientist') seems to have pushed a button in me. I... wrote a long rant about this issue which was so angry and vitriolic that if I were a mod I'd consider banning myself from the forum for posting it. Especially since it no longer has anything to do with fanfiction. You can probably imagine most of it for yourself.

I think I'll go take a cold shower and then get drunk^H^H^H^H think about something more positive.

Well, it was more of a rationalization to myself; trying to recant some of the earlier less-nice things, but....  Erm.

Well, I didn't like it either.  Anyway -- leave the drinking to me; I've already got some rum scheduled for tonight.

EDIT: hey, I just got a hilarious Madoka fic idea as a direct result of getting myself angry at this **hole. So I get to skip the getting drunk part now :-)))

I have a totally inexplicable urge to make some image files of Kyubei in profile with the caption, "FOR SCIENCE!"....

[thepanda]

Damnit!

If Brian didn't post a link I know I shouldn't have looked. -_-

[Arakawa]

After a streetcar ride home and a very cold shower I figured out why it is I have this full-on hate for Yudkowsky which this discussion ended up revealing.

Basically, it boils down to the fact that actual people I know are having their lives actually ruined in slow motion by paying too much attention to this guy's ideas - on atheism, Friendly AI, or whatever - and not enough attention to things that should be their main priority right now. These are otherwise smart people who could, if they just got their priorities straight, be living incredibly interesting and successful lives.

Oh, and by sheer cosmic coincidence I ran into the Sasaki-type person I mentioned on the streetcar. I realized how ironic it is that, given sarsaparilla's comments, the person I know who's most like Sasaki is a grad student in psychology.

[Jon]

I like Yudkowsky. (I've also met him, once.) I think his friendly AI obsession is a pipe dream, but I think he's done some meaningful writing about science and ethics. (I observe his little psuedo-Bayesian community from the edges, basically.)

I guess my takeaway from Riddle of Kyon is, if you have someone who could be a powerful force for good (which Haruhi could be), but that person is unaware of his ability, you had better have a damn good reason for not making him aware. And that fic is about Kyon deciding he doesn't have a good enough reason anymore.