[Haruhi][Rewrite] Picking Your Battles

[Brian]

I was not in the best state when I originally posted this; it's a bit rushed since I'm on my way out the door, but here's a revision.  Criticism welcome.

For an added bonus, a text file containing some other snippets of the fic I culled this from (Which I don't plan on completing, since it's no longer connected).

Edit: Dang, forgot to clip the old author's notes. :x

Edit of Edit: Ugh.  I missed a full page towards the end that I failed to revise at all.  Teach me to rush things. -_-

Edit^3: Removed old version, uploaded new.

[Muphrid]

Okay, I think I have the right version (at least, diffing what I had from earlier in the day and this gives no difference other than the double spacing I needed to comment while I read).

After an underwhelming turnout of potential recruits, it had been determined that not <em>one</em> was suitable to join the SOS Brigade -- as per the judgements of its leader, Suzumiya Haruhi.  What followed was a difficult month for her loyal crew as she tested their fitness to remain in the club, and after that, more stressful times, until, nearing the end of May, she had finally calmed down from trying more labor intensive and exhausting recruiting techniques.  I can't complain too much about seeing Nagato in a miko outfit, but there are reasonable limits.

A lot of commas in the second sentence.  Perhaps...

What followed was a difficult month for her loyal crew as she tested their fitness to remain in the club, and after that, more stressful times until, near the end of May, she had finally calmed down from trying more labor-intensive and exhausting recruiting techniques.

My wallet certainly appreciates her calming down -- I traditionally get the unwelcome 'penalty' of paying for everyone's meals at events....  I can't actually remember the point I stopped trying to get out of them, since I can't recall anyone else ever being penalized, with one exception for Mikuru.

Asahina-san.

He eases back half a centimeter.  "I believe we should talk about Suzumiya-san," he answers with the same cheerfulness, his voice low.  "Now ... I know that we've spent much time over the last few months talking around a point without truly addressing it.  Let us say that I'm leery of forcing an issue, because I would like to think that we embrace the spirit of cooperation and work together!  After all, our goals are similarly aligned, right?"

Subtle suggestion:  perhaps "discussing" a point instead of "talking around"?  Though if the emphasis is more on "around," then that can likely stand.


In general, it feels like there's a touch of hostility in Kyon's interaction with Koizumi.  While it's natural for Kyon to be irritated with Koizumi's mannerisms, here he's openly questioning to Koizumi's face (particularly with the remark about grades and such).  I'm not sure if confining Kyon's irritation to thoughts or an oblique remark would remedy this or if instead I'm reading more hostility there than is really present.

Or, if I remember this story correctly, whether this is part of Kyon's plan all along.

"Yuki-chan, you did the next best," Haruhi continues, giving the short girl a warm nod.

Yuki.

"And of course, Mikuru-chan ... you would be in third, but your ability to perform your moe duties gives you a bonus -- so you're actually tied with Yuki-chan!"

Here also.


Some general comments about the scene as it continues:  more or less, Kyon expects Haruhi to lay into him, so he does his best to ignore it with homework.  When pressed, he can rattle off five or six negative things Haruhi could say about him, and here too, the it feels a little bit that Kyon is already predisposed to be irritated.  I feel like he should be more indifferent or insulated toward what he expects to make Haruhi's "I'll give you the opportunity to confess to me" really shift his mood.  That is pretty insulting, and it's insulting in a way he might not have anticipated or expected.  Being irritated and outright combative at that is totally understandable.  As it is, what Haruhi does there seems to only add to irritation that was already there when, in my opinion, provoking it outright would be a stronger, more meaningful response.


It occurs to me that the likely starting point for Kyon to begin forming a greater strategy is in the scene break that follows.  If that is indeed the case, then I can interpret everything after as part of his plan and everything before as not.

"I don't think this would be abstract enough for him," I say ... more to convince myself than him.  Ugh.  What a feeling.  Should I wash?

This seems a bit negative toward Koizumi.  While I agree it wouldn't appeal to the esper, I can't see Kyon being disgusted by it so much.

Haruhi shakes her head quickly, before I can step outside ... and be confronted by Koizumi again.  "Eh, Yuki-chan, you lock up," Haruhi adds, setting the keys on the table and gesturing me to follow.

Yuki, again.

"Bah!  That time you told me that Koizumi, Mikuru-chan, and Yuki-chan were an esper, a time traveler, and an alien?" she asks, glaring.  "Or that stupid prank where you told me Mikuru-chan was <em>kidnapped</em>?"

And again.

What the hell was that all about?  I admit ... I was hoping for an explanation of her prank, or an apology.  Then again, from her, I should be glad she's not taking her anger out on me and just leave well enough alone.

This more or less encapsulates Kyon's behavior throughout, doesn't it?  Haruhi is a powder keg waiting to go off for the wrong answer.  That in itself isn't the thing that bothers me, though.  Does that come from her ability to reshape the world, or does that come from Kyon's actual sentiments toward her?  For the former, this piece can become somewhat...unpleasant so far, as it would feel like Haruhi has a gun to the head of the universe that she could use if Kyon doesn't give her what she wants.  For the latter, the underlying affectionate sentiment keeps the piece on a good track.  I think you're shooting more for the latter, but Kyon's tendency to obfuscate his thought processes makes it a bit hard to parse.

She has a look on her face like I just threw Asahina-san out the window for some reason.

I do like this line, though.

"Ah--  K...Kyon, I would appreciate it if that remained just between us," the esper says anxiously.  "Really--"

He did refer to him as "Kyon-kun" earlier though.

"It's not like I don't care," I assure him, shrugging.  "But she's never been forthcoming and honest about the issue.  So how am I supposed to really respond?"

This is the most honest part of the whole conversation with Koizumi.  They come to an understanding of sorts, and it's good, and for a moment Kyon shows what's important to him instead of merely acting indifferent (and, in doing so, coming across a bit like a bastard).  I'm not sure what can be done to further temper the perception of Kyon's actions, if they should even be tempered at all.  This line, though, does give context for Kyon's later sympathy for Koizumi, which is also good.


On balance, though, I do think I finally get this story.  Kyon's rebellion here, against being pushed into satisfying Haruhi regardless of what he wants, is attractive.  And in that context, his irritation earlier makes sense as an underlying issue that's nagging at him, as something that bothers him even before he really understands it.  I'm not sure how all that plays with the long passage where he acknowledges understanding Haruhi's and his own feelings.  I also think there's something appealing in the idea of having something permanent with Haruhi, as opposed to a romantic flare up that's transitory.  There's a counterpoint to that that says Kyon shouldn't be afraid of romantic involvement just for that reason, but since that's not what really motivates his choice here, I'm not sure how relevant that is.

I do think it could be appealing if, after five, ten, or fifteen years of friendship, Kyon could see something evolving from their relationship then--something well-founded in an established bond that they both know won't break even if the romantic aspects don't really take hold.  Maybe that undercuts what you're trying to do too much, though.  I leave that to you.

On the whole, I think I feel better about this than I did before, perhaps from getting a better holistic view of the story by knowing, more or less, what would happen and seeing how it all fit.

[sarsaparilla]

I'm not sure whether the version I got was fully revised or not; if some of my comments don't seem to apply, then it's likely that they're obsolete.

I complained about balance in my review of the original version; this revision addresses that problem to a sufficient degree. While the events remain the same as in the first version (at least as far as I remember), the general tone of the revision is quite different. Kyon's choices are much better substantiated, though there seem to be some inconsistencies in how he sees Haruhi at various points of the story. Overall, it's a large improvement, and instead of an aloof and indifferent chessmaster Kyon comes through as largely his own self, with valid concerns and rationales for his actions.

On to specific comments:

Concerning Haruhi's demand of confession, it's quite uncharacteristic of her. Furthermore, it's very abrupt as it doesn't tie to what happens prior to that point. There should be some process that has driven her to take such a radical measure, but we don't really get any insight into what that sequence of events is. At minimum, I would have expected one paragraph of Haruhi explaining in her own terms (no matter how off-the-wall) why asking for a confession is a logical next step after a less than flattering performance review. As it stands now, it's unsubstantiated by Haruhi's own actions, and only foreshadowed by Koizumi. On the other hand, it works as a plot device and a trigger for subsequent events, as it's definitely not a nice way of approaching the issue (well, Haruhi really sounds like an inconsiderate, selfish jerk there), and puts Kyon in an awkward position.

This sentence: "Koizumi here has been wanting to confess to you since nearly the day he joined our club!" seems a bit off, especially in context, and comes through as vindictive and underhanded, not to mention bordering on falsehood in its implications. Maybe it could be toned down while still conveying the same idea, e.g., as in "I've learned that Koizumi admires you and is very mindful of your feelings"? There's still a hidden jab in the sentence but it's not as openly confrontational.

Koizumi's attempt to hit Kyon is very uncharacteristic and disproportionate considering that Kyon only expressed a completely justifiable opinion about his own motives. To elicit such a response from Koizumi, I would have expected to see a personal insult at minimum. If that is not an option, then it might be better to tone down Koizumi's response to something less violent. As a side note, I find the need for Nagato to physically interfere and take sides as somewhat uncharacteristic, and unfortunate as well.

The section starting with "This is the part..." doesn't really need to start with an announcement for fourth wall breaking, and I personally found the start immersion breaking. It might be better to replace the first two sentences with some Kyoniism about love and war, and the rest of the section would still run just as smoothly.

The expression "When Haruhi showed her true colors..." suggests an interpretation of Haruhi that is significantly more negative than the rest of Kyon's assessments. As I mentioned above, there's a considerable amount of variance in Kyon's interpretation of Haruhi over the course of the story, and this seems to be the lowest point; the other extreme would be what Kyon says to Haruhi during their final conversation. The story as a whole might benefit from a consistency check on this issue, as right now there are clearly two different positions without a clear synthesis anywhere, depending on which layer a particular sentence belongs to, with the unfortunate side effect that it casts doubt on whether Kyon is honest with what he says to Haruhi at the end, or is he just telling her whatever is required to get the outcome he wants.

[Brian]

Erg.  I am working on a reply to both of these comments; I've just been stricken with a particularly intense case of Life Happens; I may not be able to complete my responses for another 24(ish) hours. :x

Thanks for all of your feedback, it's greatly appreciated.  ^_^

[JonBob]

So, I'm not fully sure what to think of this. I like this story, a lot, but things do feel a little off or at least too appealing to me. Maybe a bit too much "Yeah, go Kyon!" Even money, though, that it's just me.

It does seem, though, that you've taken some aspects of Haruhi and Kyon and upped them, particularly Haruhi's softer side, Kyon's tactical smarts, and Kyon's dislike of Koizumi.

As to Haruhi's softer side, I can see a lot of it stemming from Kyon showing how he sees Haruhi viewing him. Not wanting to make him think even more that you don't like him would be a good motivator to tone things down, even if that's against her character.

Kyon's tactical smarts is an interesting question of "is Kyon actually that good" vs "does Kyon seem tactically smart compared to Koizumi"?

After reading Downfall, it makes Kyon's dislike of Koizumi a bit more palatable. Dreading becoming like him is pretty funny. Also, needling Koizumi at every opportunity (especially the "he's wanted to confess to you") is humorous but possibly a bit too aggressive for Kyon.

Yeah, kinda a jumble of thoughts. Mostly, it comes down to: I really enjoy this fic, but should I really?

[Brian]

Okay, I think I have the right version (at least, diffing what I had from earlier in the day and this gives no difference other than the double spacing I needed to comment while I read).

Actually, I got home from work and was so fatigued I did absolutely no work on this at all, just collapsing into bed. -_-

Sorry about that. :x

A lot of commas in the second sentence.  Perhaps...

What followed was a difficult month for her loyal crew as she tested their fitness to remain in the club, and after that, more stressful times until, near the end of May, she had finally calmed down from trying more labor-intensive and exhausting recruiting techniques.

Still a bit heavy.  I think I'll cut it into smaller sentences:

After an underwhelming turnout of potential recruits, it had been determined that not _one_ was suitable to join the SOS Brigade -- as per the judgements of its leader, Suzumiya Haruhi.  What followed was a difficult month for her loyal crew as she tested their fitness to remain in the club.  After that came more stressful times, until near the end of May.  That was when she had finally started to calm down from the more labor intensive and exhausting 'recruiting techniques.'

     I can't complain too much about seeing Nagato in a miko outfit, but there are reasonable limits.

Asahina-san.

Aggg....  Missed bunches of those; fixed throughout.  >.<

He eases back half a centimeter.  "I believe we should talk about Suzumiya-san," he answers with the same cheerfulness, his voice low.  "Now ... I know that we've spent much time over the last few months talking around a point without truly addressing it.  Let us say that I'm leery of forcing an issue, because I would like to think that we embrace the spirit of cooperation and work together!  After all, our goals are similarly aligned, right?"

Subtle suggestion:  perhaps "discussing" a point instead of "talking around"?  Though if the emphasis is more on "around," then that can likely stand.

This was intentional.  "Talking around" is supposed to mean, "hinting at without stating," as Koizumi explains later.  Should I revise this or make it clearer?

In general, it feels like there's a touch of hostility in Kyon's interaction with Koizumi.  While it's natural for Kyon to be irritated with Koizumi's mannerisms, here he's openly questioning to Koizumi's face (particularly with the remark about grades and such).  I'm not sure if confining Kyon's irritation to thoughts or an oblique remark would remedy this or if instead I'm reading more hostility there than is really present.

Or, if I remember this story correctly, whether this is part of Kyon's plan all along.

No, Kyon having the plan from even this point makes him less sympathetic.  The hostility is overdone and needs to be reigned back.  (Curse my Koizumi-bashing tendacies!  -_-)

Yuki.

Gah; I keep doing that. >.<

Fixed throughout.

Some general comments about the scene as it continues:  more or less, Kyon expects Haruhi to lay into him, so he does his best to ignore it with homework.  When pressed, he can rattle off five or six negative things Haruhi could say about him, and here too, the it feels a little bit that Kyon is already predisposed to be irritated.  I feel like he should be more indifferent or insulated toward what he expects to make Haruhi's "I'll give you the opportunity to confess to me" really shift his mood.  That is pretty insulting, and it's insulting in a way he might not have anticipated or expected.  Being irritated and outright combative at that is totally understandable.  As it is, what Haruhi does there seems to only add to irritation that was already there when, in my opinion, provoking it outright would be a stronger, more meaningful response.

Yeah, Kyon's retaliating way too soon; okay, that'll need to be reigned in, too.  I've revised that a bit.  Probably not enough, but I'm going to be doing another revision pass for Sarsaparilla's comments.

Generally, Kyon's mildly annoyed over being singled out as having a poor review; he's too focused on Haruhi instead of the reviews themselves.  It's actually intended to show he does put value into what she says (and the Brigade), and is annoyed at being rated so poorly.  His annoyance doesn't shift to Haruhi until she takes a stab at his romantic prospects (or the lack thereof).  This is remarkably shortsighted of Kyon to not put it all together, though.

It occurs to me that the likely starting point for Kyon to begin forming a greater strategy is in the scene break that follows.  If that is indeed the case, then I can interpret everything after as part of his plan and everything before as not.

I think Kyon should get it and start working on a counter-strategy after Koizumi confronts him the day after.  (Kyon can have some ignored phone calls to justify some of his annoyance, but the anti-Koizumi aspect still needs to be toned down.)  This would probably flow a bit better.

This seems a bit negative toward Koizumi.  While I agree it wouldn't appeal to the esper, I can't see Kyon being disgusted by it so much.

Yeah, over the top.  A specific revision:

"I don't think this would be abstract enough for him," I say.  What a feeling.  This can't be that closely related, can it?  Surely we think about things entirely differently?  If he is on the same page as me -- so to speak....

And now Kyon's more worried that the esper's already got him figured out.

This more or less encapsulates Kyon's behavior throughout, doesn't it?  Haruhi is a powder keg waiting to go off for the wrong answer.  That in itself isn't the thing that bothers me, though.  Does that come from her ability to reshape the world, or does that come from Kyon's actual sentiments toward her?  For the former, this piece can become somewhat...unpleasant so far, as it would feel like Haruhi has a gun to the head of the universe that she could use if Kyon doesn't give her what she wants.  For the latter, the underlying affectionate sentiment keeps the piece on a good track.  I think you're shooting more for the latter, but Kyon's tendency to obfuscate his thought processes makes it a bit hard to parse.

It's the latter, ideally.  Trying to veer away from the former, though I can't ignore it entirely.  Kyon even remarks on it towards the end that the compromise of being her friend is probably something she needs (as not giving her her way...).

I need to be sure to offset that with his genuine concern for her, though.  Judging by Sarsaparilla's comments, not enough of that really shines through.  The tricky part is getting Kyon to say/hint that he cares about Haruhi more without it coming across as romantic.  Hm.

"Ah--  K...Kyon, I would appreciate it if that remained just between us," the esper says anxiously.  "Really--"

He did refer to him as "Kyon-kun" earlier though.

Fixed those, too.

This is the most honest part of the whole conversation with Koizumi.  They come to an understanding of sorts, and it's good, and for a moment Kyon shows what's important to him instead of merely acting indifferent (and, in doing so, coming across a bit like a bastard).  I'm not sure what can be done to further temper the perception of Kyon's actions, if they should even be tempered at all.  This line, though, does give context for Kyon's later sympathy for Koizumi, which is also good.

Glad that worked. :)

On balance, though, I do think I finally get this story.  Kyon's rebellion here, against being pushed into satisfying Haruhi regardless of what he wants, is attractive.  And in that context, his irritation earlier makes sense as an underlying issue that's nagging at him, as something that bothers him even before he really understands it.  I'm not sure how all that plays with the long passage where he acknowledges understanding Haruhi's and his own feelings.  I also think there's something appealing in the idea of having something permanent with Haruhi, as opposed to a romantic flare up that's transitory.  There's a counterpoint to that that says Kyon shouldn't be afraid of romantic involvement just for that reason, but since that's not what really motivates his choice here, I'm not sure how relevant that is.

I do think it could be appealing if, after five, ten, or fifteen years of friendship, Kyon could see something evolving from their relationship then--something well-founded in an established bond that they both know won't break even if the romantic aspects don't really take hold.  Maybe that undercuts what you're trying to do too much, though.  I leave that to you.

My initial goal was to make a story that stated difinitively that Haruhi and Kyon wouldn't end up together romantically.

Looking back at it, I'm not sure I really like that -- though I do still like that the romance angle is basically killed off in favor of establishing a more lasting friendship.  (On a personal note, I believe that friendship is a critical foundation for a romantic relationship anyway, so my motives were probably somewhat scrambled, there.)

A lot of readers of the original basically said, "Ah, that feels like Kyon just slowed things down and they're going to get together anyway."  And I'm not going to try and fix the story to prevent or encourage that interpetation.  In fact, I'm aiming to keep that intentionally vague.

(There's also the small crowd that caught Nagato using stratagem number 10, but that's not a guarantee, either.)

On the whole, I think I feel better about this than I did before, perhaps from getting a better holistic view of the story by knowing, more or less, what would happen and seeing how it all fit.

Well ... I don't like the story needing support from outside of it to be workable.  My goal is to revise this to the point that you'd be able to get it without having discussed with me/read earlier revisions.  I kind of try to write like all of my fics will some day be read by an incredibly bored internet archeologist with no access to the conversations around the stories themselves.  And s/he's an anthropologist, not a literary genius, so it has to be able to make sense to that person or it's just a muddled mystery.

So--  thank you very much for the feedback. :)

Now a short pause before replying to Sarsaparilla's comments, and begining the next round of major overhauls. ^_^;;

[Brian]

I complained about balance in my review of the original version; this revision addresses that problem to a sufficient degree. While the events remain the same as in the first version (at least as far as I remember), the general tone of the revision is quite different. Kyon's choices are much better substantiated, though there seem to be some inconsistencies in how he sees Haruhi at various points of the story. Overall, it's a large improvement, and instead of an aloof and indifferent chessmaster Kyon comes through as largely his own self, with valid concerns and rationales for his actions.

I need to iron those inconsistencies out; he shouldn't at all be antagonistic towards her, except when he's irritated at what he (initially) thinks is a jab at his romantic prospects.

Concerning Haruhi's demand of confession, it's quite uncharacteristic of her. Furthermore, it's very abrupt as it doesn't tie to what happens prior to that point. There should be some process that has driven her to take such a radical measure, but we don't really get any insight into what that sequence of events is. At minimum, I would have expected one paragraph of Haruhi explaining in her own terms (no matter how off-the-wall) why asking for a confession is a logical next step after a less than flattering performance review. As it stands now, it's unsubstantiated by Haruhi's own actions, and only foreshadowed by Koizumi. On the other hand, it works as a plot device and a trigger for subsequent events, as it's definitely not a nice way of approaching the issue (well, Haruhi really sounds like an inconsiderate, selfish jerk there), and puts Kyon in an awkward position.

I think Haruhi would try and get Kyon to confess to her first, if she could help it ... though, probably, she wouldn't be this blatant about it.  Most of the problems are the fact that I actually lifted Haruhi's dialog there entirely from a doujin.  Which ... I can't find anymore.

Bah.

Right; Haruhi needs to explain why she feels that Kyon confessing is a valid way to address his poor performance.  I'll try and tone down some of the condescending behaviour she has to cover her own anxiety in this part a small bit, too:

"You've never confessed, or had someone confess to you.  You're so hopeless in these matters that you have no clue!"  Giving a decisive nod, she places her hands on her hips and spins to face me, grinning.  "Naturally, you're at an age and in a place where thoughts like this are on your mind all the time; you're distracted from doing your duties and being a devoted member of the Brigade.

     "You can't do your best if you're constantly wondering about dating someone, can you?  The obvious solution is to address that and bring your focus back where it should be!"

     ...what?

     "So!" she continues brightly.  "Because you know I'll give anyone a chance, this once, I will allow you to confess to me!  There's no reason to hesitate or be afraid; you know I won't say no!"

This sentence: "Koizumi here has been wanting to confess to you since nearly the day he joined our club!" seems a bit off, especially in context, and comes through as vindictive and underhanded, not to mention bordering on falsehood in its implications. Maybe it could be toned down while still conveying the same idea, e.g., as in "I've learned that Koizumi admires you and is very mindful of your feelings"? There's still a hidden jab in the sentence but it's not as openly confrontational.

Yes; that's a great idea.  I'll go with that.

Koizumi's attempt to hit Kyon is very uncharacteristic and disproportionate considering that Kyon only expressed a completely justifiable opinion about his own motives. To elicit such a response from Koizumi, I would have expected to see a personal insult at minimum. If that is not an option, then it might be better to tone down Koizumi's response to something less violent. As a side note, I find the need for Nagato to physically interfere and take sides as somewhat uncharacteristic, and unfortunate as well.

Awww....  I liked the writing for Koizumi losing his temper; it was one of the few bits where I was able to use a device that sounded more like Kyon.  The action has to go, though.

I disagree on Nagato not showing support for Kyon.  I can see that you might interpet it as 'by supporting Kyon she's opposing Haruhi,' but the tack should _just_ be that she's supporting Kyon.  If the conflict between Koizumi and Kyon becomes strictly verbal, her ability to show some support for Kyon (which I'd really like to keep, if possible) is lost.

Oh well.  I'll need to come up with something else ... I can see her stopping a physical attack much more easily than participating in a debate, though.  Perhaps the better path is to have Koizumi consider something and back off on his own with a pointed glance at Nagato?  I'm not sure that has very good implications.  Then again, if it's only speech, then maybe it won't feel so severe.

I don't have a revision for this yet; I'll have to figure something out.

The section starting with "This is the part..." doesn't really need to start with an announcement for fourth wall breaking, and I personally found the start immersion breaking. It might be better to replace the first two sentences with some Kyoniism about love and war, and the rest of the section would still run just as smoothly.

Not all immersion breaks are also fourth wall breaks.  I had thought this was actually within the same framing device as the rest of the story.  I mean, it's not like the novels don't have their share of similar asides; Kyon asking if anyone who understood would be willing to take his place, for example.

But if you feel it's too jarring ... yeah, I can see that.  It was meant to be a dramatic aside; I guess I can actually just omit the preceeding scene-break and smooth that out a bit.  The previous ones were all in the context of inexplicable supernatural events, and there are none here, so.

The expression "When Haruhi showed her true colors..." suggests an interpretation of Haruhi that is significantly more negative than the rest of Kyon's assessments. As I mentioned above, there's a considerable amount of variance in Kyon's interpretation of Haruhi over the course of the story, and this seems to be the lowest point; the other extreme would be what Kyon says to Haruhi during their final conversation. The story as a whole might benefit from a consistency check on this issue, as right now there are clearly two different positions without a clear synthesis anywhere, depending on which layer a particular sentence belongs to, with the unfortunate side effect that it casts doubt on whether Kyon is honest with what he says to Haruhi at the end, or is he just telling her whatever is required to get the outcome he wants.

Yeah; that's something I need to address.  I'm not going to have Kyon look past it, but another phrasing that doesn't feel like it throws out her character growth is called for.

Alright; sorry I don't have more specific revisions yet.  I'll try and get around to those, oh....

* Brian checks the calendar.

Er.  Within the next ... few days. >_>;;

Well--  Thank you very much for the commentary; it's been very helpful.  :)

[Muphrid]

This was intentional.  "Talking around" is supposed to mean, "hinting at without stating," as Koizumi explains later.  Should I revise this or make it clearer?

I like the implication; I just felt when I came across it the phrase might be a bit...unsophisticated for Koizumi?  Otherwise the stated meaning makes sense.

Right; Haruhi needs to explain why she feels that Kyon confessing is a valid way to address his poor performance.[...]

So something that came to me is why would Haruhi think Kyon confessing himself addresses a shortcoming?  His love life isn't really relevant to the brigade, but being honest with himself is (certainly from the reader's perspective, anyway).  Haruhi could suspect Kyon is actually having fun with the brigade and not showing it too overtly.  That could be what frustrates her, and thinking that Kyon might like her (or being too roundabout to say that she likes him on her own), she does this thing about saying he can confess to her, as part of being more honest with himself.

...on the whole, though, that's a lot more positive and might not make Kyon irritated enough; then again, there's an element of hypocrisy for Haruhi asking Kyon to be honest with himself when she's not saying what it's all really about.

Anyway, as usual, that idea taken whole cloth probably won't work, but maybe it'll stir something up that will.


Finally, regarding the immersion break:  I felt and still feel it's quite appropriate for Kyon to do.  That whole scene is essential to getting into Kyon's mindset, but I can see how the device there might feel like more of a humorous bit, playing with the audience's expectations, than really necessary.  I enjoyed it, though.

[Halbarad]

I'd actually disagree regarding the Koizumi punch scene. It does actually fit well with the story, as well as bringing in an echo of the canon; it's something of a mirror to the scene near the end of Sighs. Yuki might not -need- to take sides here, but by this point she already has, and it reveals some of her own possible motivations in keeping Kyon as a free agent, so to speak.

I'd say that in this light, Kyon and Koizumi's interactions prior to that point are fine. If anything, there needs to be more urgency or irritation coming from Koizumi's side of things before it gets to this point, to really demonstrate the degree to which this is stressing him out; he definitely doesn't show emotions much, but for him to snap like that out of seemingly nowhere is slightly jarring. I like the effect of the scene though, and do think it should be left in; it just needs a bit more support earlier in the story.

The only other general comment I'd make is that Kyon should probably be aware of what Haruhi is driving at much earlier in the story - my personal inclination is that around the point where she's asking where he sees the two of them in ten years should be the tipping point. If this is something he's been considering for a while, the fact that she'd directly addressed confessing to her the day before and then is asking about the two of them being 'together' in some form in the long term should at least indicate to him that her thoughts are running towards romance and a long-term relationship of some sort with him. He's not so dense as to miss those two in close conjunction, I think, especially given some of what Koizumi's said to him by that point.

This mostly makes a difference in that he's actively pursuing his strategy of deflection from a much earlier point and doing so with full awareness, rather than what seems almost like an offhanded or accidental series of actions that just happen to blunt the thrust of what Haruhi's trying to do with him. That has the effect of giving him a sort of omniscient ability to counter her plans, since he just seems to know how to handle things with her to keep her off guard and off his back.

I do like the additional dialogue between Haruhi and Kyon at the end, and overall I like the series of role reversals that are being portrayed - Koizumi being intemperate and trying to hit Kyon (mirroring Sighs, as previously mentioned), and Haruhi's desires being overridden by Kyon's plans, as opposed to the other way around (as is usually the case). Even Kyon's increased interest in philosophy here is something of a reversal, although the desire for a wash is somewhat understandable. =)

[Brian]

I like the implication; I just felt when I came across it the phrase might be a bit...unsophisticated for Koizumi?  Otherwise the stated meaning makes sense.

Okay.  I'll take another stab at that and see if I can 'esper-it-up' a bit.

Anyway, as usual, that idea taken whole cloth probably won't work, but maybe it'll stir something up that will.

It could kind of work -- I've already redone that part, so I'll keep this comment in mind.  We'll see if the next revision (in the next few days, I hope) can't address that a little better -- if it doesn't, I'll see what else I can do.

Finally, regarding the immersion break:  I felt and still feel it's quite appropriate for Kyon to do.  That whole scene is essential to getting into Kyon's mindset, but I can see how the device there might feel like more of a humorous bit, playing with the audience's expectations, than really necessary.  I enjoyed it, though.

Okay.  I'll make it a bit more dramatic, and (in general) re-read the scene from Melancholy where Kyon goes on about dream-sequences, to make it feel more like that.  I'm not positive, but I think Sarsaparilla's complaints may have been more because of the (still implied) condescending/superior tone that Kyon's right on the edge of?  Certainly, his aloofness feels like it could detract from the sympathy he's actually supposed to be showing.

I'd actually disagree regarding the Koizumi punch scene. It does actually fit well with the story, as well as bringing in an echo of the canon; it's something of a mirror to the scene near the end of Sighs. Yuki might not -need- to take sides here, but by this point she already has, and it reveals some of her own possible motivations in keeping Kyon as a free agent, so to speak.

I'd say that in this light, Kyon and Koizumi's interactions prior to that point are fine. If anything, there needs to be more urgency or irritation coming from Koizumi's side of things before it gets to this point, to really demonstrate the degree to which this is stressing him out; he definitely doesn't show emotions much, but for him to snap like that out of seemingly nowhere is slightly jarring. I like the effect of the scene though, and do think it should be left in; it just needs a bit more support earlier in the story.

Okay; I actually liked a lot of that scene, even if the reasoning for it wasn't spot on.  I can see Sarsaparilla disliking Yuki 'picking a side' since it feels 'anti-Haruhi', so I'll try and see what I can do to make it clear she's really just looking out for Kyon, and not working against Haruhi.  I think it can be done.

Possibly, Koizumi doesn't need to actually punch Kyon, just start to and catch himself.  The goal is to show Koizumi's depth of emotion, not rub his face in Yuki neutralizing him.  She can show her support just by being there, and if I go back to 'picking straws' instead of Haruhi arbitrarily declaring the split, implications are that she'd set it up that way instead.

Hum.  That could be viable.  Feels somewhat truer to their characters to keep things on that subtle level.

The only other general comment I'd make is that Kyon should probably be aware of what Haruhi is driving at much earlier in the story - my personal inclination is that around the point where she's asking where he sees the two of them in ten years should be the tipping point. If this is something he's been considering for a while, the fact that she'd directly addressed confessing to her the day before and then is asking about the two of them being 'together' in some form in the long term should at least indicate to him that her thoughts are running towards romance and a long-term relationship of some sort with him. He's not so dense as to miss those two in close conjunction, I think, especially given some of what Koizumi's said to him by that point.

Yeah; I'm having him figure it out after Koizumi drops the 'maybe it wasn't a prank' line very early in the story.  This also gives time to play up Koizumi getting frustrated enough for the (maybe/almost)punch later.  Haruhi going on about those points can confirm his strong suspicion (though he gets thrown a bit when Haruhi starts 'dating' Koizumi).

This mostly makes a difference in that he's actively pursuing his strategy of deflection from a much earlier point and doing so with full awareness, rather than what seems almost like an offhanded or accidental series of actions that just happen to blunt the thrust of what Haruhi's trying to do with him. That has the effect of giving him a sort of omniscient ability to counter her plans, since he just seems to know how to handle things with her to keep her off guard and off his back.

I do like the additional dialogue between Haruhi and Kyon at the end, and overall I like the series of role reversals that are being portrayed - Koizumi being intemperate and trying to hit Kyon (mirroring Sighs, as previously mentioned), and Haruhi's desires being overridden by Kyon's plans, as opposed to the other way around (as is usually the case). Even Kyon's increased interest in philosophy here is something of a reversal, although the desire for a wash is somewhat understandable. =)

Huhuhu~!

But I'll still leave the 'wash' line out, since it detracts from the sympathy Kyon should be feeling for Koizumi.

Sorry for the delay in replying, I've been distracted by Shami a lot lately. >.>;;

[sarsaparilla]

I don't see any problems with Koizumi snapping, it's just that the described events sound implausible, as the action is pretty much unprovoked. Kyon should manage to hit some specific berserk button of his to get that reaction.

About Nagato, she didn't interfere when Kyon tried to hit Haruhi (and it was already established that she can intervene in a critical situation, even in plain sight of Haruhi; she would certainly have been faster to grab Kyon's hand than Koizumi). Compared to that, it is hard to see why Nagato would interfere here if the worst possible outcome were a bloody nose for Kyon. With 'taking sides' I meant that the above suggests that Nagato has become Kyon's personal bodyguard who puts his dignity (not even safety) over her official objective.

[Brian]

Right.  And I don't know that Koizumi actually needs to be that overtly violent about it, just to show that he's lost his temper briefly.  Okay, so Koizumi's distress needs to start around the same time Kyon starts actively planning.

Worst possible outcome was a bloody nose for Kyon ... and who knows what else when Koizumi has to explain it to Haruhi?  There could be more, but my goal is to actually let Nagato show some support for Kyon because of the symmetry between their situations.

Or does it work better to have Nagato not say anything/be a significant presence at all until her final scene?  Koizumi and Kyon could work things out on their own (which might allow for a stronger showing for both of them, actually).  Then I can just let her be 'faded out' in that scene, and let the blanks be filled in later?

Hmm.  Come to think of it, I kind of like that approach; it allows Nagato to be supportive without her showing favoritism, or Kyon only having the ability/confidence because of Nagato's earlier interference.  That might work!  Thanks for the input, as always. :D

[Brian]

And now I've posted a (hopefully) final revision.

...took way too long for that--  I'd like to thank everyone for their patience and commentary. :D

This is now a story I can be reasonably proud of. ^_^

Thanks again! :D