[Haruhi] Precious Moments

[Brian]

I wanted to do something more in-depth for this like I'd done elsewhere, but to make things easier for me, I've tried to separate purely mechanical observations from the more content-oriented ones.  The former are first:

Oh, boy!  Left brain: engage!

Spoiler: ShowHide

Preparing myself for the worst, I pour us glasses of water, and at the sound of a piteous whine, give Shamisen some food.  I guess he's been a little annoyed at the extra noise and traffic through his domain lately?

Maybe "...water and, at the sound..."  Basically, moving the comma to avoid it looking like another independent clause is coming?  Not sure if that's just me, though.

No, that'd offset the parenthetical.  I think your suggestion is correct.

You've started hyphenating high school here, though later on ("high-school classmate") is probably safe.

Should be consistent throughout this fic, actually.  Are you thinking of K:BDH, where I didn't?  Of course, if it's wrong, it's easy to fix.

Coercion.

Yeah, I ran spellcheck. >_>;

Oops. <_<;;

"My sympathies," Koizumi says with a wince.  "I hadn't meant to open an old wound; if my advice on the subject is welcome, it would probably be best to let the current activities play out as they have been so far."

Koizumi's use of the phrase echoes exactly what Kyon just said to him a few lines before.  If this is intentional, I think it's good--maybe you could even call attention to that if you wanted to.

I think Koizumi should drop the 'been'.

I also can't find what dialog you're refering to from Kyon?  Koizumi's analysis matches Kyon's internal narration, so I guess it's implied that Kyon may have said something along those lines, but I try to use that trick sparingly.  It was more meant to say that Koizumi thinks Kyon's probably got a good handle on things so far -- at least until more information comes to light (more on that next chapter). :x

Well, I guess that could be worse....  Usually it's more for children, but I can see Haruhi's not about to let her sense of fun be thwarted, is she?  It certainly seems harmless enough, so why not?

"It's" seems to refer to the yukata; maybe "they're" instead?

Oop, yeah.  Or 'it is a tradition' or something--  Your suggestion is probably better.

Well, that's fine, then.  After Nagato's pictures, Haruhi poses for a few herself, and then it's Asahina-san's turn.  "I'm a bit jealous that she's still so good looking after all this time," Haruhi remarks once I lower the camera.  "Don't you think she'll make a lovely bride?"

I remember thinking something like that in high-school, yes -- frequently jealously realizing it wouldn't be me....  Asahina-san's blush intensifies at that compliment from Haruhi, though, and she looks mildly uncomfortable.  Well, I guess that's a reminder to her that she's not supposed to seek out that kind of relationship, according to her bastard superiors.

I've tried not to pick on adverbs, particularly as I've found myself using them more, but "frequently jealously" seems a little clumsy?  I'm not sure what could be done about it, though, other than removing one word (which then means that aspect is lost).  You could do "I remember thinking something like that frequently in high school, yes -- and I realized with envy that the man to marry her wouldn't be me."

Oh, 'frequently realizing jealously'.  For the other issue, just added a 'to me'.

While my mind should probably be on the fun we're having, arriving at a late enough hour that most of the children are gone, it instead wanders.  Taking pictures is a mostly subconscious habit at this point, so I don't really have to think about it, just snapping shots that I expect will surprise me when I review them later.

Perhaps "...it, just snapping..." -> "...it.  I just snap..."

Hmm, I actually like this one the way it is; it's meandering, but so is Kyon's attention at that point. :x

I'm not sure of the terminology in Japan, but I would typically describe this as on the third-base side or on the first-base side.  Then again, Kyon using simple left and right may be the best for everyone, including people unfamiliar with baseball.

Yeah, I'm one of those people. <_<;

Haruhi has to dig through the song selection for a while before she finds a karaoke version of an ENOZ song she approves of, but follows Yuki up flawlessly--  Before Asahina-san takes a turn, Koizumi and I are coerced into a duet.

Nagato.

Drat.  At least I think I was better about that this time around. :x

Now, a summary of what I picked up and observations about the content:

Okay -- right brain: engage!

Spoiler: ShowHide

They don't seem to actually get to Koizumi's fiancee by the time Haruhi bursts in with yukata for them all to change into.

Yeah -- I can revisit this if required, but the next chapter may be able to address it as well, since that should let Koizumi take center stage a bit more (since it's his suggestion of what to do that day).

So we see that that fear of upsetting what they do have has yet to fully fade, even though it cost him a chance at something more.  It's still the case even now, as seen earlier when he was talking with Koizumi.

Okay, that seems to have come across as I'd planned -- great. :3

Overall, there's a lot of focus on Haruhi's struggle to do things for others while herself being somewhat unhappy or ill at ease, despite Kyon's encouragements.  The conversation between her and Kyon in the middle of the chapter definitely stabilized her, but it realisticially feels like just enough to get her through the day, as opposed to a conclusive airing out of what's between them.  And that's probably best, because it feels early to have that all just cleared away.  Still, Kyon seems no closer to coming to a decision on what to tell her--whether to tell the secret he's been holding or to put it to bed and decide that he's really content.  He's still stuck in the middle--arguably, as much as Haruhi seems to be.

Okay, that seems to have worked, too, then.  Thanks for the analysis, that was helpful to see how it's come across.

Right -- thanks for the feedback, Muphrid! :)

[sarsaparilla]

Some comments on Chapter 3:

The use of rocketry terms is spreading from similes to metaphors, making them somewhat conspicuous by now.

We get to know some things about the Organization but still very little about Koizumi himself; it looks like he still prefers keeping his personal side of things private.

The section about Kyon and Haruhi dating and breaking up is rather puzzling both in content and presentation. There is very little mentioned about the events, as most of the section is used to describe Nagato's situation, an apparently unrelated thing. Is there a particular rationale for juxtaposing the two topics? Furthermore, the events are described in a laconic and detached  manner, with very little attention paid to reasons, and almost none to feelings. Particularly, the issue of the two of them living together even after the dating phase is not addressed; one might expect to see all kinds of problems arise. Also, neither of the two seem to be willing to analyze their situation, considering how much they are sharing with each other. The way it is being described, they are in practice a couple in every way except for an arbitrary physical limit, and it's hard to see how the only given rationale for the distance, Kyon's unwillingness to tell everything about their past, is an insurmountable obstacle for that. Although I don't know where this story is heading, I would have expected to see this very issue worked in more detail as it's in the root of everything that is happening.

I like the discussion between Kyon and Haruhi after the festival; they are both earnest and thoughtful.

Having Haruhi still be anxious about the baseball stadium feels somewhat unexpected. The way I understood that part of Melancholy, the place itself was completely coincidental and merely a trigger to an independent realization, where the realization itself was important, not the particular way in which it was reached.

Nagato as a die-hard baseball fan was also unexpected, in apparent mild contradiction with things that were revealed before, and which were very much in character.

This chapter didn't advance the plot by much, especially since pertinent issues that were already alluded to in the previous chapter were only touched very lightly. The chapter mostly reads like a slice-of-life story, but the work as a whole is structured more like a development story; in combination with the title and the description of how the idea for the story evolved it suggests that the end result will be somewhere in between.

[Brian]

Some comments on Chapter 3:

The use of rocketry terms is spreading from similes to metaphors, making them somewhat conspicuous by now.

Oh, so they stopped working?  I had tried to pre-emptively scale them back, but if that didn't work, I guess I can drop them entirely by now.

The section about Kyon and Haruhi dating and breaking up is rather puzzling both in content and presentation. There is very little mentioned about the events, as most of the section is used to describe Nagato's situation, an apparently unrelated thing. Is there a particular rationale for juxtaposing the two topics?

It felt like it flowed smoothly, to me; the topic was relationships.  Haruhi tries to point out that Asahina looks good and Kyon should pay attention, Kyon misses it and says she should be just as kind to herself/Nagato, Nagato explains that she's married to her job, Kyon thinks back to his own relationship with Haruhi.

As an aside, discussion in IRC has convinced me that this fic is fundamentally flawed and so I have to apologize for wasting your time, as I will be abandoning it, at least for a good while.  I may try and salvage it at some later date, but, bleah.

That being said, what do you feel didn't work, or would make that connection more obvious?  Not that I can guarantee I'll use it, but I'm curious as to how the connections could be made more visible and salient?

Furthermore, the events are described in a laconic and detached  manner, with very little attention paid to reasons, and almost none to feelings. Particularly, the issue of the two of them living together even after the dating phase is not addressed; one might expect to see all kinds of problems arise.

I think Kyon went into his feelings in a lot of detail, and Haruhi was clear enough about her own.  (Obviously, among the other failings of this story, I didn't convey that well.)  Let's see ... Kyon and Haruhi both aknowledge that they really care about one another.  Kyon explains that he feels guilty and awkward because of the secrets that he has to keep, and they overshadow the intimacy he and Haruhi are failing to invoke.  I guess that wasn't clear, or you would just like to see more exposition in that regard?

Also, neither of the two seem to be willing to analyze their situation, considering how much they are sharing with each other. The way it is being described, they are in practice a couple in every way except for an arbitrary physical limit, and it's hard to see how the only given rationale for the distance, Kyon's unwillingness to tell everything about their past, is an insurmountable obstacle for that. Although I don't know where this story is heading, I would have expected to see this very issue worked in more detail as it's in the root of everything that is happening.

Maybe this is my mistake.  Perhaps the reasons for them not getting together have to be deeper and more damaging, like they were in Later; perhaps it's just not possible to have both Haruhi and Kyon be sympathetic and not be in a relationship.  I had wanted to portray it as amicable and somewhat awkward -- while still friendly -- but I get the sense that you don't find the reasoning acceptable.

Having Haruhi still be anxious about the baseball stadium feels somewhat unexpected. The way I understood that part of Melancholy, the place itself was completely coincidental and merely a trigger to an independent realization, where the realization itself was important, not the particular way in which it was reached.

Okay, something else I will have to discard if I come back for a rewrite, then.  Haruhi cannot attach significance to the stadium.  I'll try to remember that, even though it makes it harder to find ways for her to be vulnerable and sympathetic.

Nagato as a die-hard baseball fan was also unexpected, in apparent mild contradiction with things that were revealed before, and which were very much in character.

I think you're saying, "Nagato was OOC to like baseball," there?  Or just that it's unacceptable for her to not be interested in romance while also admiring her favorite player?

Thank you for the feedback anyway; sorry you were unhappy with how the story was going.  But, more than just you thought it was flawed, so no problems for pointing out that it couldn't be saved.  Maybe in a week or two I'll start trying to work on a short Tanabata fic. :\

Sorry about wasting your time. :)

[sarsaparilla]

I am terribly sorry if my comments sounded like the story was not working, that was not my intention and I don't even think so. I was just picking up parts that didn't seem to be supported to the same extent as the rest of the story. E.g., when I wrote that it was unexpected to see Nagato as a baseball fan that was exactly what I meant. Having her devoted to her work is something that one can relate to based on the canon and thus it doesn't require any additional elaboration; having her devoted to baseball is a new development and thus one would naturally wish to hear more about it.

The description of Kyon and Haruhi dating and breaking up was written in a style that was in a stark contrast to everything else; it made me think of the Finnish minimalist (self-depreciating) humor of Kaurismäki movies, a tone that wasn't probably sought for. I'm not trying to say that the events themselves are implausible, just that the description itself is so terse that it's hard to see the relevant rationales. Maybe this is a matter of personal appeal; I felt that the issue and reasoning behind it was of utmost importance for a proper understanding of the situation, and was hoping to see a more detailed treatment.

In short, I was hoping to see more, not less.

[Brian]

I am terribly sorry if my comments sounded like the story was not working, that was not my intention and I don't even think so.

That's fine; it's actually Hal who inadvertantly pointed out I was screwing up and motivated me to drop things.  I just felt your observations reinforced his commentary (especially since you had no idea he said it -- two people reaching the same conclusion independantly...).

I was just picking up parts that didn't seem to be supported to the same extent as the rest of the story. E.g., when I wrote that it was unexpected to see Nagato as a baseball fan that was exactly what I meant. Having her devoted to her work is something that one can relate to based on the canon and thus it doesn't require any additional elaboration; having her devoted to baseball is a new development and thus one would naturally wish to hear more about it.

Hmm.  I see ... one of the issues then would have been that what Nagato (and Koizumi) have been up to isn't as important to the story.  They're both relevant for their interactions at the present, but the goal was to focus on the interplay between Kyon, Haruhi, and Asahina -- spending too much time exploring the other characters would detract from that and make the story larger.

It was meant to be (in short) that Nagato and Koizumi are happy -- things for them are working out well enough that they don't need to be focused on.

I suppose that doesn't work and the story (had it been continued) would need to be even larger, to the point that the original romantic resolution plot is merely one part of a much bigger story.  I ... really wanted this to be more concise, so I think that indicates that it's beyond a simple adjustement and trying to save; this has to be a story that's going to take a lot more effort than I want to invest at this point.  Where I had hoped to resolve it in a quick five or six (seven at the most) chapters, it's probably got to be at least twelve.

If I approach it again, it'll be using a minimalistic stance.  As it is, the story was clearly getting lost in the exposition.

The description of Kyon and Haruhi dating and breaking up was written in a style that was in a stark contrast to everything else; it made me think of the Finnish minimalist (self-depreciating) humor of Kaurismäki movies, a tone that wasn't probably sought for.

I have no familiarity with those.  It wasn't touched on in detail because the plan would have been to try and bring more attention to it later--  But the story failed to support itself, so that's moot.

I'm not trying to say that the events themselves are implausible, just that the description itself is so terse that it's hard to see the relevant rationales. Maybe this is a matter of personal appeal; I felt that the issue and reasoning behind it was of utmost importance for a proper understanding of the situation, and was hoping to see a more detailed treatment.

In short, I was hoping to see more, not less.

Right, and this ties back into taking up more space and story than I wanted to invest ... which pretty much tells me this was a disaster from the beginning.  Don't feel bad for pointing out that the house of cards wasn't stable ... it's my fault for building the story poorly and trying to use pieces that evidently require a significantly more detailed structure.

That ... is a pity.  So the minimalistic approach wouldn't resolve this either. :\

Okay.  Thank you for that analysis.  In that case, what there is of this story is free for anyone else who wants to take it; I've come up with an idea I cannot execute.  Anyone who wishes can recover and conclude this story as they see fit.  Perhaps even you? :)

I'm sure you'd be able to write the Haruhi/Kyon ending I think you'd like to see, but looking over it is just frustrating to me at this point.  Thank you again for your feedback anyway, it does help me see where I went wrong and which pitfalls to avoid in the future.


Edit: Realized that just because I'm done with it, I should leave the thread unlocked in case someone else does want to pick up the pieces, rather than risk subverting the entire idea thread with discussion or whatever.

[Brian]

Alright.  I need to apologize to both Sars and Halbarad--  It's not an excuse but I had an unfortunate episode and was taking things way too seriously on pretty much all fronts.  (Call it a 'meltdown' if you will.)  I'm terribly sorry that I blew things unreasonably out of proportion and let my emotions govern my decisions, and that I took this long to properly apologize.

Still, I must take complete responsibility for my actions, and can only blame myself--  There were warning signs that I overlooked on Monday morning, and I should have isolated, but failed to do so.  My deepest apologies.

I can understand if either or both of you have no more interest in commenting on what I write.

That being said, the feedback I had gotten was reasonable, so I've done my best to try and take it into account and offer a revision.  I don't want to throw this story away, even if I probably cannot make it something that satisfies everyone.

The story is still being offered under wtfpl, should anyone else (for whatever reason) want to make their own version with an ending or content that more suit them -- it's not reasonable to go back on that, though I doubt anyone else actually cares enough to work on their own version -- this is my best attempt at accommodating the responses I've got without sacrificing my own vision.

Hopefully it works.

If not, well....  That's how it goes. :\

My apologies again, especially to Hal over what transpired in IRC. :x

The old version of the story will be left up, should anyone want it for whatever reason.

Thanks for your time.  (.htm version to be uploaded after I get home)

Edit: Now with actual .htm. >_>;;

[Muphrid]

So I see what changes have been made with this version, and I think I see what they were meant to do.  I like Nagato's explanation of her interest in baseball, but let me dwell a little bit on the other big thing:

Spoiler: ShowHide

With the removal of the flashback to Haruhi and Kyon dating and why they stopped, as well as the change to the final scene so that Haruhi doesn't ask Kyon to sleep beside her to soothe her nerves (which I understand may have had to be changed anyway on logical grounds), some focus has been taken off Haruhi, Kyon, and the status of their relationship, and I'm concerned that nothing seems to have moved in to fill that void.

I'm not clear what the future intentions of the story are as of now, and given how tumultuous this week must have been, I had been hesitant to press, but there are only so many possibilities, so I figure I may as well try to address the big ones:

A) Kyon and Asahina are going to get together with Haruhi's encouragement and blessing, and Haruhi and Kyon will put any wounds between them to rest.  The problem I see with this one is that, while Asahina has received more focus and time than Koizumi or Nagato, that focus is much, much less than what's been given to Haruhi and Kyon's past relationship and how that affects their current interaction.  So far, I haven't gotten any kind of feeling from Kyon that he would seriously consider this possibility, lingering feelings for Haruhi aside, and by the same token, I don't know if I've seen enough of anything to suggest Asahina would really allow herself to engage in such a relationship.

That's not to say I don't think it can work; I just feel that in the content written so far, the other characters treat Asahina as a possiblity for Kyon, where Kyon himself has been far too fixated on Haruhi to consider it.  Maybe in future chapters the balance would start to shift; I just feel compelled to point out that I don't think it's even significantly started to tip yet.

Now, the other big possibility,

B) Kyon and Haruhi patch things up and, with Kyon able to tell Haruhi the truth, they can have a real relationship after all.  In this scenario, Asahina acts as a stimulus to break Kyon and Haruhi out of their established pattern and to bring those buried issues back to the fore.  I think that could work if that's what your intentions are at this time, but given that some of the material that would play into this has been removed (maybe never to be readded, maybe to reappear later), I'm not sure I see that this is a focus or an issue.  But I think on a mechanical level it can work if that's what you've chosen.

There's something that complicates both of these, and I think it's proven the sticking point that requires a ton of careful outside logic and thinking to be introduced:  namely, what Kyon tells Haruhi about her powers and the supernatural.  Because it's part of the reason their relationship failed, the possibility Kyon might drop that card to win her back is ever-present.  At the same time, he must tell her at some point; as long as he thinks her capable of dealing with it, I can see no other sympathetic option.  When and why he tells her are the interesting questions.  I could imagine him trying to win her back with it or telling her after he's realized that it wasn't the main reason they couldn't stay together but something he blamed mistakenly instead, having realized there was something more fundamental standing between them.  That's just a couple of examples.

Regardless, due to the way the rift between Haruhi and Kyon is written to have developed, it's an issue that must be resolved whatever his course.  If he goes after Haruhi with renewed interest, playing the trump is the obvious choice.  If he goes after Asahina, he doesn't have to play it (he may not even want to, to keep Haruhi distant for her own sake), but as I said, I think he almost certainly must at some point.  It's like the regret over not having coming clean to her is as big an issue for this piece as where he's going in the future.  Indeed, I think it may have grown like a tumor to obstruct the growth of anything else organic to the piece.  I'm not sure if that means the reason Haruhi and Kyon didn't get together should be something else--it may be that would just shuffle the problem to, "Well, once Haruhi knows, what does she do, and why would she pursue that life as a rocket scientist?"  So I admit, that may not help at all, and it may well be you already have a good solution to this problem that I simply can't see as yet.

Anyway, I've rambled quite a bit, and I apologize for not saying these things sooner; I thought it best at the time to give the piece room to grow by itself without guessing and jumping to conclusions about how it would do so, but given that it's already at a crossroads, I guess there's no real time like the present.

So, in one paragraph: if this is going for Asahina/Kyon in the end, I feel like Asahina hasn't been shown as a serious enough possiblity in Kyon's mind, this being three chapters in, because it feels like the focus on Haruhi and Kyon's past relationship and present situation is much greater.  In addition, Kyon not having told Haruhi the truth in the past seems like an unavoidable obstacle to any path he chooses, and I feel like that's a logical complication instead of an emotional one; I feel like it might not set the right mood as a result.

These are just my idle thoughts.  As always, it's entirely possible I've missed significantly on what's in play.

[Brian]

So I see what changes have been made with this version, and I think I see what they were meant to do.  I like Nagato's explanation of her interest in baseball, but let me dwell a little bit on the other big thing:

Spoiler: ShowHide

With the removal of the flashback to Haruhi and Kyon dating and why they stopped, as well as the change to the final scene so that Haruhi doesn't ask Kyon to sleep beside her to soothe her nerves (which I understand may have had to be changed anyway on logical grounds), some focus has been taken off Haruhi, Kyon, and the status of their relationship, and I'm concerned that nothing seems to have moved in to fill that void.

Well, probably.  I was trying to avoid having the exploration of Kyon and Haruhi's relationship not working come across 'like a joke'.


I guess that my plan of addressing it later isn't an option since it ruins the pacing.

A) Kyon and Asahina are going to get together with Haruhi's encouragement and blessing, and Haruhi and Kyon will put any wounds between them to rest.  The problem I see with this one is that, while Asahina has received more focus and time than Koizumi or Nagato, that focus is much, much less than what's been given to Haruhi and Kyon's past relationship and how that affects their current interaction.  So far, I haven't gotten any kind of feeling from Kyon that he would seriously consider this possibility, lingering feelings for Haruhi aside, and by the same token, I don't know if I've seen enough of anything to suggest Asahina would really allow herself to engage in such a relationship.

That's not to say I don't think it can work; I just feel that in the content written so far, the other characters treat Asahina as a possiblity for Kyon, where Kyon himself has been far too fixated on Haruhi to consider it.  Maybe in future chapters the balance would start to shift; I just feel compelled to point out that I don't think it's even significantly started to tip yet.

It's meant to be more that Kyon doesn't really consider himself in a relationship with anyone at all.  He thinks Mikuru's relationship potential is governered by Time Jerks, and doesn't really even realize he's put himself in a self-imposed stasis where he doesn't get anywhere.

Haruhi does, but isn't sure how to deal with that until she sees Mikuru again.  So, yeah, Kyon _hasn't_ considered it seriously because he's loyal to Haruhi.  Haruhi accepted it because she didn't really see it as problematic until she realized that even if he were happier on the surface than Mikuru, he was 'stuck' in the same sense that Mikuru is.

And even if she doesn't understand how it happened, Haruhi feels somehow responsible so tries to address that in her own way.

B) Kyon and Haruhi patch things up and, with Kyon able to tell Haruhi the truth, they can have a real relationship after all.

[spoiler]That approach also doesn't factor in what I'm actually going to be working toward -- namely, that Haruhi herself has a subconscious awareness that she's happier not knowing any of that.  In that sense, for this story, a relationship between Kyon and Haruhi never can work because he can't be that close to someone he can't be fully honest with ... and if he tries to explain the truth to Haruhi, she'll cut him off and tell him she's happier not knowing, and trusts him enough that if he keeps secrets, she feels it's got to be for a good reason.

So, in one paragraph: if this is going for Asahina/Kyon in the end, I feel like Asahina hasn't been shown as a serious enough possiblity in Kyon's mind, this being three chapters in, because it feels like the focus on Haruhi and Kyon's past relationship and present situation is much greater.  In addition, Kyon not having told Haruhi the truth in the past seems like an unavoidable obstacle to any path he chooses, and I feel like that's a logical complication instead of an emotional one; I feel like it might not set the right mood as a result.

Well, as above, I'm trying to show that Kyon's kind of 'stuck' and not going anywhere he should be.

Is that just not working at all?  I guess it must not be, if I have to try and step outside the story to support it.... :\

Well, how much of a rewrite does this necessitate?  The entire chapter?  Or should I start over from the prologue, if it's just heading in the wrong direction?

Not really sure, here.[/spoiler]

[Muphrid]

Spoiler: ShowHide

Well, as above, I'm trying to show that Kyon's kind of 'stuck' and not going anywhere he should be.

Is that just not working at all?  I guess it must not be, if I have to try and step outside the story to support it.... :\

Well, how much of a rewrite does this necessitate?  The entire chapter?  Or should I start over from the prologue, if it's just heading in the wrong direction?

Not really sure, here.

It absolutely gets across that Kyon is stuck.  If I didn't say it before, I'll say it now: the reason I didn't voice this concern before is that I was totally willing to let it all play out and see how everything fit later on.  It's just with all the other concerns flying around and that there might be a time to reexamine things.  Kyon is absolutely stuck, and I as a reader can't see the way out that (I imagine and hope) he's going to find.  But that could all change next chapter, for instance.

Still, I think part of what I'm seeing is something that came up back in chapter one when there were concerns about what the dramatic impetus is, the core question being, is it enough to go with slice-of-life feel that's present so far?  Maybe it is.  I guess that really just comes down to taste.  Anything else really would require a rewrite of some kind back to the first chapter, I think.  So maybe that's what encapsulates my concern for the piece.  To be honest, I've had a hard time just understanding what it is that has nagged at me, let alone figuring out how to describe it.  When I think of it in terms of the way I've phrased it above--slice of live vs. something more tightly constructed--it does just seem like a matter of taste.

[Brian]

Spoiler: ShowHide

Kyon is absolutely stuck, and I as a reader can't see the way out that (I imagine and hope) he's going to find.  But that could all change next chapter, for instance.

Well, he can't.  He has to know he's stuck first.

Fortunately for him, Haruhi's able to provide the impetus to get things moving. 

This does create an imbalance -- before, Kyon was able to be the rock that Haruhi leaned on to get her own confidence in the world.  Now it's pretty onesided, and Kyon doesn't have any real strengths other than being a reliable idiot.  Instead of coming across as a concerned friend, he comes across as someone who never entirely got over the relationship with Haruhi that never took off, something I really didn't want to portray.

It seems that my attempts to show them in a friendly situation where they're close but not in a relationship utterly fails, which kind of confounds me, as it's not _that_ different from what Kyon and Nagato had in Later, where evidently it _did_ work.  I'm ... kind of oblivious myself as to why the one is fine, and the other is not.  Looking back at the feedback and trying to sort that one out, I'm kind of left scratching my head. :\

All I can think of is that I spent more text explaining why things were they way they were.

I'm honestly not very satisfied with how the current take on chapter three is, as it now makes Kyon come across as a bit pathetic, without really much in the way of redeeming qualities or strengths.  As it is, what's there for Mikuru (or _anyone_) to actually _like_?

So ... I see that as a flaw, but I have no idea how to fix it.

As far as the lack of dramatic tension issue:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I don't know.  If it's just taste, then it's just taste.  But maybe I really would be better off setting this aside and working on something else?  To be entirely honest, I'd really like to try using an approach like I did for Retrograde, but evidently trying to portray Haruhi and Kyon as close friends and not in a relationship plausibly requires more justification than that structure can provide.

Since that approach isn't an option ... I'm really uncertain of where to go.

[Muphrid]

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Kyon is absolutely stuck, and I as a reader can't see the way out that (I imagine and hope) he's going to find.  But that could all change next chapter, for instance.

Well, he can't.  He has to know he's stuck first.

Fortunately for him, Haruhi's able to provide the impetus to get things moving. 

This does create an imbalance -- before, Kyon was able to be the rock that Haruhi leaned on to get her own confidence in the world.  Now it's pretty onesided, and Kyon doesn't have any real strengths other than being a reliable idiot.  Instead of coming across as a concerned friend, he comes across as someone who never entirely got over the relationship with Haruhi that never took off, something I really didn't want to portray.

It seems that my attempts to show them in a friendly situation where they're close but not in a relationship utterly fails, which kind of confounds me, as it's not _that_ different from what Kyon and Nagato had in Later, where evidently it _did_ work.  I'm ... kind of oblivious myself as to why the one is fine, and the other is not.  Looking back at the feedback and trying to sort that one out, I'm kind of left scratching my head. :\

All I can think of is that I spent more text explaining why things were they way they were.

I'm honestly not very satisfied with how the current take on chapter three is, as it now makes Kyon come across as a bit pathetic, without really much in the way of redeeming qualities or strengths.  As it is, what's there for Mikuru (or _anyone_) to actually _like_?

So ... I see that as a flaw, but I have no idea how to fix it.

What occurred to me as a way to fix the dramatic tension was if, just as Haruhi has been trying to set Kyon up here and there, Kyon had been the one to seek out bringing the brigade back together in an effort to cheer up Haruhi, in response to a series of little moments of uncertainty and disquiet like the kind he's been seeing from her in the text as it stands.  It strikes me that something similar to that might help Kyon come across as more balanced.  He's a journalist now, too; maybe something to do with that could help reinforce the idea that, aside from one regret, he's capable adult with goals of his own.

As far as the non-romantic friendship "not working," it's because that relationship has a lot of background and shared experiences and continued interactions that allow it to evolve that I find it so interesting--indeed, I began to feel that that aspect was so compelling it would dwarf everything else (that's part of what I meant when I talked about time spent on Haruhi vs. Asahina, for instance).

But yeah, Kyon comes across as hung up, like you intended...and yet at the same time, it makes him seem a little pathetic and undermines the stability of the friendship he and Haruhi have?  I could see, then, on a systematic level that perhaps a different dynamic would resolve these issues.  Maybe all he needs is a layer or a simple excuse to blame his lack of love life on--too busy with work, too difficult to find a woman who would understand his closeness to Haruhi.

Finally, regarding the flashback passage about Haruhi and Kyon's relationship:  I do think based on sars's comments, there was a logical issue of how the relationship relates to the incident of Nagato gaining her freedom in particular, as opposed to the lots of things that Kyon had kept from Haruhi in general.  I did think the technique used was appropriate, as the text's structure itself reflected how brief the relationship was.  Are more details needed?  Perhaps so, if the reader is looking at this passage with scrutiny and needs to be persuaded that this setup for Kyon and Haruhi could actually happen.  I personally saw it as so integral to the premise that, as long as I could accept it in principle (and I can), it worked for me.

But I think the real question there is whether that flashback is necessary at all.  It probably is depending on how future actions require Kyon to consider his past ones, but it also goes back to Kyon being stuck and whether he's looking back out of regret or trying to look forward and learn from past experience.  I guess there are just a lot of ways to play it.

[Brian]

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What occurred to me as a way to fix the dramatic tension was if, just as Haruhi has been trying to set Kyon up here and there, Kyon had been the one to seek out bringing the brigade back together in an effort to cheer up Haruhi, in response to a series of little moments of uncertainty and disquiet like the kind he's been seeing from her in the text as it stands.  It strikes me that something similar to that might help Kyon come across as more balanced.  He's a journalist now, too; maybe something to do with that could help reinforce the idea that, aside from one regret, he's capable adult with goals of his own.

That ... premise might work, but I feel it takes away too much from my original design.  Maybe that's a more viable and better story.

It's just stopped being the one I wanted to write. :(

It feels like it's true to Haruhi's character to have her do the roundup.  I can't get that feeling when I try and imagine Kyon doing the same thing.

But yeah, Kyon comes across as hung up, like you intended...and yet at the same time, it makes him seem a little pathetic and undermines the stability of the friendship he and Haruhi have?  I could see, then, on a systematic level that perhaps a different dynamic would resolve these issues.  Maybe all he needs is a layer or a simple excuse to blame his lack of love life on--too busy with work, too difficult to find a woman who would understand his closeness to Haruhi.

I cannot see a way for Kyon to claim to be 'too busy'.  A journalist who keeps going on about how much free time he has?  That's ... really just not plausible to me that he could even try and pretend that was a valid excuse.  Maybe thinking that they wouldn't understand his relationship with Haruhi?

That _may_ be more viable, but no less pathetic.  Kyon not realizing he's stuck (not making excuses because he's oblivious) feels like a way to avoid that, but I guess it doesn't work either.

Finally, regarding the flashback passage about Haruhi and Kyon's relationship:  I do think based on sars's comments, there was a logical issue of how the relationship relates to the incident of Nagato gaining her freedom in particular, as opposed to the lots of things that Kyon had kept from Haruhi in general.

That was not meant to be a particular link, it was just trying to cover that Nagato was separate from the IDSE in the same framework.  It wasn't meant to be some kind of 'capstone' secret -- just another in the pile, but also the last.

But I think the real question there is whether that flashback is necessary at all.  It probably is depending on how future actions require Kyon to consider his past ones, but it also goes back to Kyon being stuck and whether he's looking back out of regret or trying to look forward and learn from past experience.  I guess there are just a lot of ways to play it.

The flashback wasn't going to be cut and never referenced again -- it was going to be explored in more detail later.  I thought the premise was very simple, but evidently no one's really willing to accept Haruhi and Kyon as 'just friends' without so much support it overshadows other elements of the story entirely.

Even though you said you felt the attention given to the relationship was appropriate, I think the feedback has felt more like if I want to write the story as I've been trying to, I need to start off with a dissertation/excuse/justification to show, "No, really, Haruhi and Kyon are just friends."

And that means I need to rewrite it with an (evidently) much longer explanation about WHY they are just friends.  This just means I cannot start with a happy story, but must begin with a more depressing one that explores the dysfunction that Haruhi and Kyon have settled into.

Which is fine, as long as it ends happier than it started.  So ... in that view, everything that's been written is effectively the mid or third arc.  That's the only approach that comes to mind that lets me preserve what I've written.  Okay.

That approach feels much less frustrating to me.

[Brian]

Okay.  I've determined that the major issue is not actually the story, but the order of presentation of the various elements.  From what I can tell, the big problem is that I inaccurately set an expectation that this is an exploration of the failed Haruhi/Kyon relationship primarily.  I made it too big a looming entity and all attention was distracted from where I wanted it.

I've revised it a little bit -- Kyon's mostly the same except less oblivious (since that made him less sympathetic) and also aware that he's kind of stuck (since otherwise it makes Haruhi too by having her take all the impetus to bail him out).  The biggest change is trying to move the explanation for why it didn't work basically to the very front--

The prologue was trying to deliver a 'gotcha' sort of thing that I think was doing more harm than good and giving too much attention to the wrong elements.  I expect that the second chapter will have more changes, but ideally they will actually be minimal.  So, here's the rewrite of chapter one.  If this works, I'll try and have a revised chapter two and three out shortly.  Hopefully this works a bit better, even though not a whole lot has actually changed:

[Grahf]

I'm sorry that I didn't get a chance to really take this all in and comment on it sooner. Hopefully I'll give something constructive to this situation that hasn't been said already.

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It seems that my attempts to show them in a friendly situation where they're close but not in a relationship utterly fails, which kind of confounds me, as it's not _that_ different from what Kyon and Nagato had in Later, where evidently it _did_ work.  I'm ... kind of oblivious myself as to why the one is fine, and the other is not.  Looking back at the feedback and trying to sort that one out, I'm kind of left scratching my head.

For what it's worth I think that even for people that haven't kept up with all of the novels that the Haruhi/Kyon pairing holds a lot of weight. Certainly there's a mutual attraction to some degree with all of the girls, but I think that the scenario that you laid out in Later where Kyon is almost sort of a big brother to Nagato works because you can see elements of it there already, even as early as the first few novels. Certainly she's often more powerful then him, but the fact that he tries to help her however he can really lends itself well to that spin.

With Haruhi, there's almost an implicit underpinning of there needing to be something more. I can understand you not wanting to make that the focus, but the spectre of it looms large over any story where they aren't together and where all indications would seem to point to them not being together in the end.

Most of that probably comes off as a rehash, but there is something else that I thought of, although I don't know how well it would work.

Haruhi has always been uncannily perceptive, in this story it's part of the reason that her relationship with Kyon failed, along with the secret that Kyon is keeping from her. I wouldn't find it a stretch to say that Haruhi has realized on some level if not consciously that tension doesn't exist between Kyon and Mikuru, or if it does not to the same extent. Knowing that something vague seems to be holding Mikuru back, I could see Haruhi confronting her -- not in a nasty or aggressive way, but as a concerned friend, which her concern about Nagato not dating could be foreshadowing for -- and telling Mikuru that she's sure that if Mikuru wants to at least try to start a relationship with Kyon that no outside factors will put a stop to that.

The main problem with that is of course unless Kyon is witnessing this that it would almost certainly necessitate another point of view, or a lengthy flashback that might not have the same impact. It is a thought about what to do, though. Perhaps not a great one, but it is a thought.

[Brian]

I'm sorry that I didn't get a chance to really take this all in and comment on it sooner. Hopefully I'll give something constructive to this situation that hasn't been said already.

Better late than never ... which seems to match both the pace and theme of this piece. @_@

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It seems that my attempts to show them in a friendly situation where they're close but not in a relationship utterly fails, which kind of confounds me, as it's not _that_ different from what Kyon and Nagato had in Later, where evidently it _did_ work.  I'm ... kind of oblivious myself as to why the one is fine, and the other is not.  Looking back at the feedback and trying to sort that one out, I'm kind of left scratching my head.

For what it's worth I think that even for people that haven't kept up with all of the novels that the Haruhi/Kyon pairing holds a lot of weight. Certainly there's a mutual attraction to some degree with all of the girls, but I think that the scenario that you laid out in Later where Kyon is almost sort of a big brother to Nagato works because you can see elements of it there already, even as early as the first few novels. Certainly she's often more powerful then him, but the fact that he tries to help her however he can really lends itself well to that spin.

With Haruhi, there's almost an implicit underpinning of there needing to be something more. I can understand you not wanting to make that the focus, but the spectre of it looms large over any story where they aren't together and where all indications would seem to point to them not being together in the end.

Well, I don't have any control over what other people see, but it's just as easy to imagine romance between Kyon and any of the girls -- or only friendship instead -- for me.  Certainly, on occasion Kyon treats Haruhi the same way he would a sister, and while he does sometimes have moments that may go further, the one he's (at least overtly) most interested in romance with is Mikuru.  (Yes, it's ostensibly just posturing, but that's what's written.)  Not to sidetrack this into character debate--

I'm thinking I'm actually trying to fight the fanon perceptions here, rather than genuine canon.  So, yeah -- I even personally tend to ship Kyon/Haruhi, though I to me the friendship between the two of them is just as important (if not moreso), but I think my stories speak for that point well enough. :x

So I wanted to portray them as together as friends -- almost like brother and sister, close, but not romantic.  This garnered almost immediate objecting from Sars (and undoubtedly anyone else like-minded, which would be most people -- she's not being singled out here for making an observation; I can see that viewpoint, and just wish there were a way to sidestep or work around the issue, but I can't figure one out), that it was underexplored.  Basically: "More time and text must be spent to justify them not being in a romance."

My concern is that exploring it doesn't make it less looming, but more -- as demonstrated in the last attempt at chapter three.  Eventually, it becomes bogged down in justifying the fact that Kyon and Haruhi are only friends to the point that Mikuru fades into the background, and then, where the hell does that plot twist come from?  Readers will be O_o?ing over the fact that the focus suddenly shifts from (at a glance) around 60% explaining/demonstrating that Haruhi and Kyon are only friends, to maybe 20% Mikuru's storyline with Kyon.  (The rest being background on the others.)

I cannot find an approach that lets me show the setup I want -- which is (again) very simply that Haruhi and Kyon are only friends.  Well ... the one thing I haven't tried is going the route that they never tried a romantic relationship at all, but I can't honestly imagine the results being any different.  I mean.  Or would it?

I'm not sure....  Haruhi's own romantic interest in Kyon fizzles but the friendship remains?  Kyon's lack of romantic inertia on his own part leads to him being perfectly content with Haruhi how things stand?

...maybe that approach would be valid.  If it did, it'd let me ignore all of the things that (I feel) aren't really neccessary to the story.  I'm not sure.  I would be okay with it, but leery of yet another revision, though I suppose this one would be minor, too....

I'm uncertain.  I think the idea may be viable, but I'd like more input before I take another wild stab at this one. @_@

And:

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Haruhi has always been uncannily perceptive, in this story it's part of the reason that her relationship with Kyon failed, along with the secret that Kyon is keeping from her. I wouldn't find it a stretch to say that Haruhi has realized on some level if not consciously that tension doesn't exist between Kyon and Mikuru, or if it does not to the same extent. Knowing that something vague seems to be holding Mikuru back, I could see Haruhi confronting her -- not in a nasty or aggressive way, but as a concerned friend, which her concern about Nagato not dating could be foreshadowing for -- and telling Mikuru that she's sure that if Mikuru wants to at least try to start a relationship with Kyon that no outside factors will put a stop to that.

The main problem with that is of course unless Kyon is witnessing this that it would almost certainly necessitate another point of view, or a lengthy flashback that might not have the same impact. It is a thought about what to do, though. Perhaps not a great one, but it is a thought.

The idea of Haruhi peripherally being aware of that is in my outlines, and part of the story I do want to write.  And also giving her rough blessing, helping thwarting any 'jerk timetravelers' that try to interfere, too--  The angle I was planning on is [spoiler] Kyon being stressed out because he cares about Haruhi as a friend too much to 'use' Haruhi for his (and Mikuru's) benefit like that, but also doesn't want to make Mikuru have to deal with a (not yet introduced) source of tension--

Then Kyon could come to grips with the 'never told Haruhi the truth' angle, determine that she deserves to know, but he can't try and ask her for help selfishly, and Haruhi could demonstrate her intuition and character growth by telling Kyon she doesn't want to know before he can get started, but that she's on his side (and Mikuru's) no matter what -- just like always (and then soft-focus lens, Kyon/Mikuru kiss scene, iris out, soft-pop outro, roll credits).

[/spoiler]

I'm just stymied on how to get to the story I want without making readers declare that the setup is implausible/prevents suspension of disbelief from the beginning, or creating massive red-herrings that aren't really relevant and overshadow the relatively simple plot I'm actually trying for. :\

I may need to let this rest a bit and come back to it.  As it is, I think I've burnt a lot of willingness to comment by posting as many revisions as quickly as I have.  Perhaps let it fade from memory for a few months and start a rewrite anew later.... <_<;

Well, thanks for commenting in any case. :)