[Ranma] Identity (rewrite)

[Muphrid]

So, based on the thoughts in the other thread, I've decided to try rewriting this piece, and the best place to start is with a first chapter.  A lot of core stuff is still the same for the piece as a whole--it still has a Ranma/Akane matchup, for instance--but for this first chapter, I've tried to come up with something more accessible, that's easier to get into, and that's more representative of the what the piece is like as a whole (read: more focus on the action and Sorcerers instead of hitting people over the head for five chapters with relationship stuff before we even get to that).

So while I anticipate recycling a lot of content from other chapters in their rewriting, this is almost entirely new material.  I hope that's a selling point.  As Dracos rightly pointed out in the other thread, I have a lot of trouble just figuring out what some good selling points are.

A draft of the new chapter one should be attached.

Edit: A draft of the new chapter two is attached also.  While more material has been recycled for this, I rewrote more than I'd anticipated.  One more chapter after this will conclude the first arc, and it should follow, with changes, the general idea of the old 2.3 and 2.4.

Edit edit: publication versions and latest drafts can now be found at http://muphrid.net/~michael/writing/identity/.

[Arakawa]

Anyhow, to summarize the general considerations. This is largely just a re-cap of what we discussed in IRC, though; more thoughts might materialize later. (Mostly, I don't know as much as I'd like about Ranma or your intentions for the fic to be able to accurately suggest alternatives to things.)

Chapter 1

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Kuno being electrocuted is a gag that might be plausible in the Ranmaverse; however, not like it happens here. The context would be a gag where Ranma initially gets Kuno to take him by a fairly standard deception, but then Kuno refuses to respect Ranma's boundaries and Ranma escalates his attempts to keep him away to these ever more ludicrous heights. The audience can ignore the fact that, in reality, those heights of conflict , because they simply arose out of the comedic principle of repeatedly exaggerating a situation.

But as written, where the first thing we see is Kuno being pulled out of the suitcase and given electroshock, it's effectively a punchline with no setup. In isolation like this it doesn't really register as an exaggerated gag; and, taken at face value, it feels more like Ranma's become a kidnapper, because we don't see what Kuno did to provoke his action. (We're told of it, but that doesn't have the necessary impact to put us in a comedic frame of mind for interpreting the import of the scene.)

The scene sets him up as an unscrupulous and dangerous person, and casts his later thoughts on killing vs. not killing in a bit too dire a light -- if he can seriously treat Kuno like that, then it seems much more plausible that he would deal out death to people who are not only obstacles to his plan, but also threatened the safety of the Guide. He's already close enough to crossing the line with his reasoning as it is, and I think you were trying to go for a somewhat different emphasis on what his temptation to kill in this fic is based on. (I would guess the paragraph where he thinks to himself that he could take just one life and be forever rid of the curse is a closer expression of what you were aiming for.)

Aside re the electroshock thing: is that by any chance a deliberate echo of Urusei Yatsura?

The pacing of the chapter is comfortably brisk, so perhaps there is room to stretch it out a little with a description of how Ranma's trip progresses from, say, an initially cordial-seeming (well, by Kuno levels) agreement, gradually escalating to the mayhem already depicted and thus framing it correctly so there's no misunderstanding about it implying something about Ranma's choice. Done well, it might even aid the pacing and tension without reducing it.

The action is well written. Ranma finishing the fight with Shi Shi Hokodan in that way is somehow very satisfying.

I'd give some re-thought to how Ranma's thoughts on killing are presented, but not too much; after mulling it over, I have a feeling that most of the sour taste from it comes from how they're framed by Ranma's treatment of Kuno immediately prior.

It seems like a solid first chapter. Rather than the mostly nondescript opening of the original Identity, this gives the impression that the fic will have a lot of fast-paced, gritty action, a somewhat dark tone, and in general things are going to get pretty wild. (If I understand what I've heard of the Saffron arc correctly, the fic is basically going to escalate on some aspects of it.) If all that is indeed the case, then you're introducing the fic correctly this time.

Going to follow up with thoughts on Chapter 2 once I've mulled it over a little.

As I said, holding off on technical advice for now, since it's probably not the main priority. One issue that stood out as worth mentioning was that "to sleep perhaps to dream" should have at least a comma in it...

[Muphrid]

Okay, let's see here...

Spoiler: ShowHide

I think I can kill several birds here, then: I can elaborate more on how Ranma persuaded Kuno to bankroll this trip to China, and in doing so, I can space things out a little bit (and also tone them down) regarding how Ranma keeps Kuno, er, restrained.  I'd like to keep some aspect of that if possible for a moment of levity, but clearly it can be handled a bit better.

Ranma's thoughts on killing are indeed a bit muddled here, so I'm going to try to clean that up.  Ultimately, Ranma knows that there is a time and a place to use that level of force.  Nevertheless, he should fear that he will resort to it too quickly, based on vengeful thinking or personal needs than what is appropriate in the moment and for the situation at hand.  I think part of the issue I had with this is I've always had doubts about Ranma's display of mercy that occurs here, so I've ended up jumping through hoops trying to make it feel as justified and reasonable as possible, getting myself a bit lost while doing so.  I think that can be made more uniform, though.

Thanks again for your help, Arakawa; I feel much better about the piece now, having seen how it's perceived, and the tweaks needed to adjust the rough parts seem tractable.  I appreciate your thoughts.

[Arakawa]

Alright, a couple of things to pay attention to in Chapter 2. For now it seems a bit more solid than Ch. 1 (assuming nothing else comes to mind after thinking about it) -- the parts of the chapter that I don't mention I found interesting and well-thought out:

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As far as I understand the story so far: the Ki Sorcerers' magic is evidently affected / powered by emotion. The wrong emotions at the wrong time may cause disastrous results, so the village employs a Sieve who is trained to absorb and then harmlessly dissipate everyone's emotions. After Ranma's battle with Saffron, the current Sieve found he enjoyed the taste of Ranma's anger, and wanted to taste it instead of dissipating / burying it. Hence he became unable to filter the villagers' emotions, and the village is slowly sliding towards chaos as the Sorcerers are unable to cope with or control their own feelings.

Of course, the chapter itself is very coy about stating any of this outright. (If the above description is wrong, well, it describes the impression I got.) It makes sense -- it takes Ranma a while to figure this out, while the Sorcerers don't use the term 'emotion', instead referring to it as a type of energy. However, it makes the import of Prince Bailu's death somewhat confusing. Did Prince Bailu go nuclear because his emotions got the best of him in the heat of battle, and then killed himself because he did not truly wish to cause such an outcome? Do they control their emotions since then, because Prince Bailu's tragedy awoke them to the devastation they can cause if left unchecked? It took me an extra re-reading after seeing the scene with the sieve to puzzle out what they were getting at, so it may be possible to make that particular tale a bit more clear, still without employing the term 'emotion' outright. At least enough so that it's not tempting to go back and re-read things for clarification after you reveal what you mean more clearly... otherwise it feels like we're always a step behind where Ranma is in terms of understanding the situation.

If I'm misunderstanding something with the above analysis, that's probably all the more reason to clarify what you originally meant.

The point at which the chapter is ended is probably fine if you can just click 'next page', but reading it as it was, it struck me as a bit questionable for a cliffhanger -- it could have gone on just a second or two longer. The thing is, the Captain just saw him punch out the Sieve, but it's unclear as to what her reaction is, and how she's going to react -- is Ranma about to have to explain himself? or start running and fighting for his life? Either seems possible, and (to my taste -- I might be wrong) the ending should disambiguate between these two very different kinds of cliffhanger. Instead, we cut to what Ranma is thinking and his resolution not to cooperate with the Sorcerers' plan, and then end, and we don't really know how much the tension has just been ramped up, if at all.

So basically, a solid chapter, but I think you're being just a shade too coy in terms of delaying the point when you reveal essential details.

[Muphrid]

Mkay, several things to consider here.

Spoiler: ShowHide

As far as I understand the story so far: the Ki Sorcerers' magic is evidently affected / powered by emotion. The wrong emotions at the wrong time may cause disastrous results, so the village employs a Sieve who is trained to absorb and then harmlessly dissipate everyone's emotions. After Ranma's battle with Saffron, the current Sieve found he enjoyed the taste of Ranma's anger, and wanted to taste it instead of dissipating / burying it. Hence he became unable to filter the villagers' emotions, and the village is slowly sliding towards chaos as the Sorcerers are unable to cope with or control their own feelings.

If you've already concluded that the Sieve really sensed something from Ranma, not Saffron, then you're one step ahead.  They all think it's Saffron at the moment, but otherwise, this is pretty much as close as anyone could be expected to get given the information at hand.

Of course, the chapter itself is very coy about stating any of this outright. (If the above description is wrong, well, it describes the impression I got.) It makes sense -- it takes Ranma a while to figure this out, while the Sorcerers don't use the term 'emotion', instead referring to it as a type of energy. However, it makes the import of Prince Bailu's death somewhat confusing. Did Prince Bailu go nuclear because his emotions got the best of him in the heat of battle, and then killed himself because he did not truly wish to cause such an outcome? Do they control their emotions since then, because Prince Bailu's tragedy awoke them to the devastation they can cause if left unchecked? It took me an extra re-reading after seeing the scene with the sieve to puzzle out what they were getting at, so it may be possible to make that particular tale a bit more clear, still without employing the term 'emotion' outright. At least enough so that it's not tempting to go back and re-read things for clarification after you reveal what you mean more clearly... otherwise it feels like we're always a step behind where Ranma is in terms of understanding the situation.

Yeah, this is more or less the case; Bailu unleashes a terrible spell partly because of his grief over having taken down some of his men in friendly fire, but he's also more responsible for the situation at hand than Sindoor's tale relates.  I think I understand what you're saying, though: it's important that these points about why the Sorcerers are doing what they're doing be conveyed extremely clearly, so that their measures seem reasonable until Ranma realizes the Sieve is a person and that there's a whole level of twisted to it that he didn't anticipate.

I think I can subtly tighten this up without giving away the big kahuna--the explicit connection between emotion and magic.

The point at which the chapter is ended is probably fine if you can just click 'next page', but reading it as it was, it struck me as a bit questionable for a cliffhanger -- it could have gone on just a second or two longer. The thing is, the Captain just saw him punch out the Sieve, but it's unclear as to what her reaction is, and how she's going to react -- is Ranma about to have to explain himself? or start running and fighting for his life? Either seems possible, and (to my taste -- I might be wrong) the ending should disambiguate between these two very different kinds of cliffhanger. Instead, we cut to what Ranma is thinking and his resolution not to cooperate with the Sorcerers' plan, and then end, and we don't really know how much the tension has just been ramped up, if at all.

I'm unsure what to do about this.  I already had concerns that this chapter was getting long.  I did write the scene that immediately follows from this, however, as the lead in for where we'd pick up.  In short, that scene goes as follows: the Captain tries to take Ranma back to his hut, angry with him, and Ranma realizes from her anger that she is the one Tilaka was talking about, who was with him at the spring when he sated the previous Sieve.  Ranma sneaks away after the Captain is done with him and tries to attack the channelers in the tower to bring down the Maze, but he can't disable that many people that quickly without the Guard swarming in.

The way I would tweak things to make it all work is as follows:  instead of Ranma telling Sindoor anything about what happened at Jusenkyo, he would say nothing and be given the last bit of leeway and respect Sindoor will offer in deference to the mercy he showed the Captain (this is something I'd planned on doing anyway because I didn't want to have Ranma "just so happen" not to tell Sindoor that Saffron's dead, however convoluted the actual logic was that Ranma presented).  Only once he's stopped from assaulting the channelers would he feign cooperation, encouraging the Sorcerers to prepare an army against the Phoenix for him to buy time for another opportunity to escape.  Ironically, that's all a lot closer to what happens pre-rewrite.

I admit, though, I'm not thrilled with the idea of the chapter ending up near 18-19 thousand words, but the way it's structured now, I see no obvious place to break it up.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: a new draft of chapter 1 with the Kuno scene at the beginning rewritten is attached.

[Arakawa]

More Chapter 2 stuff:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm unsure what to do about this.  I already had concerns that this chapter was getting long.  I did write the scene that immediately follows from this, however, as the lead in for where we'd pick up.  In short, that scene goes as follows: the Captain tries to take Ranma back to his hut, angry with him, and Ranma realizes from her anger that she is the one Tilaka was talking about, who was with him at the spring when he sated the previous Sieve.  Ranma sneaks away after the Captain is done with him and tries to attack the channelers in the tower to bring down the Maze, but he can't disable that many people that quickly without the Guard swarming in.

The way I would tweak things to make it all work is as follows:  instead of Ranma telling Sindoor anything about what happened at Jusenkyo, he would say nothing and be given the last bit of leeway and respect Sindoor will offer in deference to the mercy he showed the Captain (this is something I'd planned on doing anyway because I didn't want to have Ranma "just so happen" not to tell Sindoor that Saffron's dead, however convoluted the actual logic was that Ranma presented).  Only once he's stopped from assaulting the channelers would he feign cooperation, encouraging the Sorcerers to prepare an army against the Phoenix for him to buy time for another opportunity to escape.  Ironically, that's all a lot closer to what happens pre-rewrite.

Umm, I think this 'tweak' is way-way complicated. You're contemplating restructuring the chapter to be over a third of the NaNoWriMo quota in length (!) and changing a major plot point just because of my fairly minor original complaint. It's probably easier to just ignore my complaint :-)

Though now that I know where the next chapter was going to start, I'm thinking you could try something more along the following lines:

"What have you done, Outsider? I asked you to show him compassion, and this is what you do?"

<Ranma reaction>

... continue Captain reaction - she checks Tilaka ...

<continue Ranma's reflections>

... Captain further reaction - addresses herself to Ranma again, perhaps? insists that he has to leave immediately before what he's done to Tilaka is discovered? not sure ...

<Ranma is still in the midst of his thoughts, ending as before with "No way. No way in hell. I'll tear this tower apart with my bare hands before it comes to that.">

This seems to me to be somewhat more clear in terms of what the tone at this point is.

Anyhow, you could probably figure something out along those lines. If not, then my observation is worth ignoring; again, it's that much less salient once there's a chapter 3 that you can immediately click to...

And rewritten Chapter 1 stuff:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Seems much more reasonable to me. Toning the joke down somewhat saves having to spend too much time building up to it, incidentally -- that's about the most you could do without resorting to a full-scale flashback of their journey together.

Anyhow, it's more clear what the situation with Kuno is, and I think the overall tone of the chapter is better for it.

[Muphrid]

Spoiler: ShowHide

Umm, I think this 'tweak' is way-way complicated. You're contemplating restructuring the chapter to be over a third of the NaNoWriMo quota in length (!) and changing a major plot point just because of my fairly minor original complaint. It's probably easier to just ignore my complaint :-)

Though now that I know where the next chapter was going to start, I'm thinking you could try something more along the following lines:

(snip)

This seems to me to be somewhat more clear in terms of what the tone at this point is.

Anyhow, you could probably figure something out along those lines. If not, then my observation is worth ignoring; again, it's that much less salient once there's a chapter 3 that you can immediately click to...

Well, let me not give the wrong impression:  changing the timing of when Ranma tells the Sorcerers about Saffron was something I wanted to do anyway to avoid Ranma having to conveniently omit stuff for reasons I didn't find plausible enough, and I was already having trouble figuring out the structuring for chapter 3.  Tacking on another scene on the end (which didn't end up quite as long as I'd thought) allowed me to get it to feel right, I think.  Provided that that scene works.

A new revision of chapter 2 is attached with what I had in mind, and I'm glad to hear the changes to chapter 1 work.  Thanks!

[Jason_Miao]

Re: ch 1.

> Flying with magic? Oh, come on! At least that Phoenix prick had wings to tear off!

Which didn't actually help.  He did that in Vol 38 part 7, but they grew back.

> Why couldn't it be something easy like, I dunno, Martial Arts Mahjong players? I could've handled people being overly dramatic when they put down tiles.

Heh!



Also, Ranma getting suckered out of a cure at his fingertips, by a crying girl, feels Ranma-ish.


Haven't read ch 2 yet (although, as I was writing this, it looks like you revised ch 2, so maybe it is better that I didn't).

[Muphrid]

Indeed, the bit about Saffron's wings growing back ("That's cheating!") was part of what I wanted to call back to, heh.

Attached is a draft of chapter three.  I think I'd like to trim it a bit, so ideas in that regard are welcome.

[Arakawa]

Sorry for not getting back earlier on this. A few things I noticed in the early part which is most likely going to be kept in its entirety:

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I think we can take that part of the good Guide's tale as fact, and it is a sure matter of concern for someone in the tribe. She should hear of it.

Suggest something like "a certain person" instead of "someone".

add this addendum

Adding addenda appends additional alliteration. Algebra!

... which is to say, repetition of "add" is a bit odd.

But even before that message was common knowledge, the youngest daughter of Tendō Sōun, the fiery Akane, suspect something was gravely wrong.

Probably "suspected". Maaybe "became" instead of "was"?

Need I remind you how long it took for you to get out of China?

Repeated "you".

As for how to shorten the chapter, I spent some time thinking about it. One thing flows into another, doesn't it, and before long you end up with thirty pages of genre shift relative to what happened before? Haven't really come up with good ideas how to trim it. The obvious idea is to split the long flashback into a couple separate flashbacks and let the reader fill in the blanks for the less important transitions... something like

Spoiler: ShowHide

• Akane begins to worry something has happened to Ranma - goes to ask Amazons for help
• flashback showing what happens between Akane and Shampoo -- say, up to the end of their fight
• Akane next goes to ask Ukyo for help
• flashback showing what happens between Akane and Ukyo -- i.e. the aftermath of Ranma going around to the other fiancees, Akane misunderstanding, Ukyo telling her off

[li]... rest of chapter.[/li][/list]

... in terms of the basic idea, at least. Definitely a lot more thought is needed as to how to cut things up into flashbacks and where to insert them, but there's a chance the pacing could be restored with that approach. Other than that, haven't come up with any suggestions.

There's a whole lot of 'normal' Ranma/Akane interaction which is probably important to establish their relations in this one, but it kills the pacing, and I have no idea how to deal with that. I'll be on IRC at some point to think aloud about it, I guess.

[Muphrid]

Mkay, here's what I think I can do.

Spoiler: ShowHide

To me, the biggest problem with this chapter is that it doesn't advance the plot while also going into all this flashback stuff, so really, the best thing to do that I can see is to go with a more natural restructuring.

To get an idea of what was going on, here was the plan for the next couple of chapters:

03 - (what you see here)
04 - An Amazon party goes to Jusenkyo and finds some Sorcerers there; the Captain leads a force there to root the Amazons out, and Ranma manages to convince the Sorcerers to take him along.  He helps free some Amazon captives, so they can get word to the Amazon village, but he is still held himself.
05 - Shampoo, Akane, Ukyo, et. al. arrive in China, and their goal is to convince the Amazon elders that a rescue of Ranma is warranted and in the village's interests.  The Amazon elders frankly don't believe this is the case, and the key lies in Shampoo asserting she is Ranma's wife, which means Ranma is entitled to whatever aid she sees fit as a member of the tribe.  After some difficulties, Shampoo has to concede that Ranma does not love her yet, but she and Cologne are able to force the Council's hand into sending a significant force to Jusenkyo, where the Amazons and Sorcerers can square off in subsequent chapters.

What I have in mind now is to just cut 03 out, bump everything up, and put the parts relevant to Shampoo into what's currently 05 (they are, after all, pertinent to how well she can lie about being Ranma's wife).  All the other material can wait for good times to be worked in.  The whole battle arc between the Amazons and Sorcerers at Jusenkyo should have opportunities for Akane and Ukyo to be the POV characters, for instance.

That's my current thinking, at least.  Thanks for cutting through it and pointing out what wasn't working, Arakawa.

[Muphrid]

So, this is part of going through with that new plan thing.

[Arakawa]

Interesting.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I notice that, rather than interspersing flashbacks (sort of what I'd been expecting, I dunno), you're calling back to the corresponding action indirectly. e.g. a flashback to the scene of the Guide &co traveling in the old version is replaced by Ranma reasoning that the Amazons must have been contacted if they're showing up so soon, then asking them about it during the interrogation.

Not... really sure how I feel about Ranma's character here. I think most of what I've seen of him in canon, he has a fairly simple approach to things, and it takes a while for anything to get on his nerves. Even once angered, he generally takes a while to shift from attacking the problem head-on to just trying to manipulate the situation to win at any cost.

Here he's completely pissed off (with some justification) and thinking strategically (making deals he's prepared to break, coordinating the subterfuge with the Amazons and worrying that their cover stories match), which results in seeing mostly sides of him I'm not really familiar with. I'm not really sure though -- haven't read the Saffron arc yet, working gradually through the manga so eventually I'll get to that point and be able to revisit this issue. _{(The return of Principal Kuno is surprisingly tedious to read a second time through in manga form.)}

This is all just from what I remember of canon - I'm not exactly a longtime Ranma fan/fanfic veteran - so commentary from me on this is of limited usefulness. It would probably be good to ask a second opinion.

One thing I'll point to is Ranma explicitly refers to the "twisted ways" of the Sorcerers a lot, which is a bit odd. Sure, the Sorcerers are screwed up even on the surface, but they're not that twisted based on just what I've seen so far. I'm guessing you're going to pull more skeletons out of their closet at some point, but at this point it feels very much like you're relying on Informed Evil to characterize the Sorcerers. Either that, or Ranma's anger is spilling over into an aspect of the narration that feels like an objective statement of things and not his opinion. Or, I've just been lazy about putting things together from your hints so far. It seems a bit of a leap, though, from oblique hints to explicit mention of 'twisted ways'.

"Curious. They used to watch us very closely, but I'd thought they'd grown tired of such waiting. Well, we shall have to find out for ourselves what the they want.

"what they want"

The archer stepped up. "What are your intentions, Sorcerer? Where have you taken us? Why leave your protective bubble after so long? Did you think we wouldn't notice that you'd left? We've been watching. We've always been watching. Not many people would forget losing hundreds of their brothers to the likes of you!"

Not sure if Joketsuzoku encourage their male warriors to identify with their brothers (in the sense of other males of the tribe) specifically. It could be either way, I guess. It's not like patriarchal society discourages bonds of sisterhood, though unlike patriarchal society the Joketsuzoku happen to live surrounded by peoples who don't share their way of life, so they may be more careful about suppressing any hint of patriarchal relations; it's not really addressed in much detail how their matriarchy is structured. The only in-canon hints I can think of that you could use as a jumping-off point for reasoning it through is that Cologne is an absolute powerhouse next to Shampoo and demands total obedience from the latter (so it's really the oldest women who must be enforcing the shape of the society), while Mousse specializes in concealed weapons, making him probably the wimpiest-sounding of the full time martial artists -- many fics generalize this to having this an overall pattern for the males. (I think Kumkum being an archer fits this pattern.) I'm probably overthinking this.

Anyhow, "brothers" makes the reader stop and question the whole can of worms (as you can see from my tangent, it really is a can of worms you could get bogged down in for a while, given how much canon doesn't tell you either way). Not sure how to deal with this. "Brothers and sisters" or other synonyms is a bit clunky, maybe you could put "brethren" which feels more gender-neutral and dodges the question.

[Muphrid]

Right, so, I did end up tweaking chapter 3 a bit to try to make Ranma come off more improvising and less calculating, as well as more abjectly indifferent to Sorcerer ways rather than hostile.  I feel pretty good about this version now, and the general spirit of those changes is something I may want to take a look at chapters one and two with as well.

A draft of chapter four is attached.  One thing in particular I'm concerned about, though:

Spoiler: ShowHide

The stretch where Cologne asks Shampoo what happened and how she tried to kill Akane, etc, and whether it can be told more effectively--i.e. in a way other than through Shampoo's mouth but from Cologne's point of view. I feel like something more direct could be more powerful, but this doesn't seem like the place to really dwell on it in an in-the-moment sort of way.  It's something I could revisit later, though.

[Muphrid]

Just for reference, IRC logs from last night:

[2012-09-17 20:41:11] < MuForbis> As for Ch 4, my enjoyment of how the Chinese-Amazon politicking turns out to be probably biases any feedback I'll have to give
[2012-09-17 20:41:45] < MuForbis> there are things in my opinion you could clarify, less sure what to say in the event you're looking to cut things.
[2012-09-17 20:48:10] < Muphrid> My big worry was just that the stuff with Shampoo explaining what happened would break the flow.
[2012-09-17 20:48:30] < MuForbis> I guess most story-relevant tweaking would be about how the witnesses (Akane, Ukyo) and their balance of motivations are presented.  It could get confusing for someone who hasn't seen the factual material in the older draft that their statements are based from.
[2012-09-17 20:49:10] < Muphrid> Readers don't have a firm grounding to judge what's being said and how much to believe it?
[2012-09-17 20:49:57] < MuForbis> I didn't really have a good impression of what agreement is there between Cologne and the other fiancees as to what they'll be saying.
[2012-09-17 20:50:32] < Muphrid> Okay, that can be made more explicit.
[2012-09-17 20:51:43] < Muphrid> I think I kinda shied away from doing so just because it hurt my brain considering that Cologne didn't expect Ukyo and Akane goes way off script anyway.
[2012-09-17 20:51:58] < Muphrid> But it needs to be done.
[2012-09-17 20:52:33] < MuForbis> It's some kind of compromise between telling the truth, and claiming Ranma's exclusive love for Shampoo, but the exact details of what they agree on either happen offscreen, or they're lost in all the stuff with the Council.
[2012-09-17 20:52:52] < MuForbis> Which latter Cologne's mind is mostly on.
[2012-09-17 20:54:04] < Muphrid> Did it seem plausible to you that Shampoo kept Cologne in the dark about what happened?
[2012-09-17 20:54:13] < MuForbis> I assume that she wound up overthinking the Council side of the equation, and correspondingly neglecting to consider what the fiancees were likely to do.
[2012-09-17 20:54:22] < MuForbis> Muphrid: yep.
[2012-09-17 20:54:49] < MuForbis> Not a sympathetic thing to do, but understandable.
[2012-09-17 20:55:24] < MuForbis> (Reminds me of her dynamic with Cologne in Hearts of Ice, for what it's worth. That might be a negative.)
[2012-09-17 20:56:24] < MuForbis> (Namely, Shampoo deludes herself about her chances/level of resolve, and Cologne doesn't have the heart to challenge her on it, instead taking her at her word.)
[2012-09-17 20:58:22] < MuForbis> With regard to the witness statements, though, it's prudent to reduce the number of unknowns from the get-go so, when they're actually giving the statements, it's plain that there's this one incident not mentioned so far they're all dancing around.
[2012-09-17 20:58:27] < MuForbis> Hrm
[2012-09-17 20:59:46] < MuForbis> Again, I have to headach about Akane and Ukyo's motivation. None of them wind up revealing / letting slip evidence to Cologne of Shampoo's behaviour during their negotiations and coaching?
[2012-09-17 21:01:16] < MuForbis> (Random aside, the silent nine apparently all understand Japanese. I think that's fine on a suspension of disbelief issue, to save having to write about there being a translator, and then the inevitable question of whether the translator is trustworthy, for whom, etc. that would arise.)
[2012-09-17 21:05:32] < MuForbis> Hnghm
[2012-09-17 21:05:40] < MuForbis> I home this isn't too much food for thought at once.
[2012-09-17 21:05:46] < MuForbis> s/home/hope/
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[2012-09-17 21:07:44] < Muphrid> Yeah, that's the rub: how does that secret stay secret?  It's...implausible.
[2012-09-17 21:08:04] < Muphrid> So I was considering having Cologne know about it and try to conceal it, but it changes all the dynamics of the chapter.
[2012-09-17 21:08:09] < MuForbis> I liked where the backstory is going with Ceruse and that whole part, though.
[2012-09-17 21:08:20] < Muphrid> I'm not opposed to doing that change, just need to work out how to make it all fit.
[2012-09-17 21:08:28] < MuForbis> and thankfully that's completely independent of whatever scheming Cologne is doing in the actual chapter.
[2012-09-17 21:08:41] < Muphrid> Cool.  That backstory is important.
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[2012-09-17 21:09:19] < MuForbis> Muphrid: yeah, that's where doing the elaborate council politics starts to be a heavy investment story-wise. Given how these sorts of changes need to get cross-checked against it.
[2012-09-17 21:10:32] < Muphrid> (Re: the Nine all understanding Japanese.  This probably does need at least a throwaway line about some translation.)
[2012-09-17 21:11:25] < MuForbis> If you're considering how to change things, I'm a bit dubious incidentally on how easily Shampoo's punishment gets apparently-reversed.
[2012-09-17 21:11:54] < Muphrid> I'd felt that way a little bit, too.
[2012-09-17 21:12:12] < MuForbis> "We symbolically behead you and forbid you to speak because it would be too barbaric in this day and age to actually behead you, but bear in mind that if we could we would."
[2012-09-17 21:12:32] < MuForbis> Cologne: "Arch-enemy, please reverse the symbolic beheading because politics."
[2012-09-17 21:12:51] < MuForbis> "We reverse the symbolic beheading."
[2012-09-17 21:13:06] < MuForbis> Nine: *sweatdrop* (we're supposed to go along with this why?)
[2012-09-17 21:13:16] < MuForbis> "Because politics, just vote already."
[2012-09-17 21:13:21] < Muphrid> It was probably more significant/awesome when she actually went before the Council and asked for a no confidence vote.
[2012-09-17 21:13:23] < MuForbis> Nine: (figures)
[2012-09-17 21:13:54] < MuForbis> One option is that Shampoo retain the punishment for a substantial portion of the story.
[2012-09-17 21:14:33] < Muphrid> So they let the Last Right be invoked but retain the punishment/
[2012-09-17 21:14:58] < MuForbis> It would probably change a lot of things, but it would be dramatically better for it to be unpleasant enough to actually induce some character development for Shampoo.
[2012-09-17 21:15:03] < MuForbis> Maybe.
[2012-09-17 21:15:23] < Muphrid> ...you know, all things considered, that can work.
[2012-09-17 21:15:55] < MuForbis> Another option is some development on the Sorcerer end could make everyone's scheming in that regard irrelevant.
[2012-09-17 21:16:19] < Muphrid> Cologne is the de facto head of whatever force goes to Jusenkyo regardless of Shampoo's status.
[2012-09-17 21:17:23] < MuForbis> i.e. some information arrives such that they *have* to do something, and it's now just a question of deciding whether to go to war, or send some more-measured response.
[2012-09-17 21:18:19] < MuForbis> Just a thought, though.
[2012-09-17 21:18:39] < Muphrid> That, ironically, is what happened in the old version.
[2012-09-17 21:18:51] < MuForbis> Ah.
[2012-09-17 21:18:59] < MuForbis> Any reason why you decided to move away from that route?
[2012-09-17 21:19:34] < Muphrid> It's just a question timing.
[2012-09-17 21:19:41] < MuForbis> Ah.
[2012-09-17 21:19:54] < MuForbis> So it's something that's going to happen in any case
[2012-09-17 21:19:58] < Muphrid> Well.
[2012-09-17 21:20:13] < MuForbis> just their intervention could already be on the way when it does happen.
[2012-09-17 21:20:14] < Muphrid> It's a matter of when the Amazons hear from Ranma.
[2012-09-17 21:21:16] < Muphrid> Honestly, going back to that may simplify things quite a bit.
[2012-09-17 21:21:26] < Muphrid> Because I was unhappy with Surma having to ally with Bindi anyway.
[2012-09-17 21:21:58] < Muphrid> At least, with her taking the position she does.
[2012-09-17 21:22:24] < Muphrid> I was concerned that having all this political stuff and then Ranma radios in making the point moot might be strange.
[2012-09-17 21:23:40] < Muphrid> But...maybe the timing isn't so convenient.
[2012-09-17 21:24:12] < MuForbis> The salient point in this chapter could have been Shampoo being dishonest, causing Cologne's scheme to put her at the head of a rescue-Ranma-intervention to backfire, landing Shampoo with a punishment. Then circumstances force an intervention anyways, but Shampoo is barely able to even earn a place on it, and its emphasis is certainly not on Ranma.
[2012-09-17 21:25:30] < Muphrid> At that point, Cologne will have been unable to do anything to change things.
[2012-09-17 21:25:51] < MuForbis> Then we see what Shampoo would be willing to do for Ranma's sake, with no guarantee of receiving what she wants in exchange, and with much of the Joketsuzoku hostile to their interests.
[2012-09-17 21:26:08] < MuForbis> s/their/her/
[2012-09-17 21:26:09] < Muphrid> Referring to what, exactly?
[2012-09-17 21:26:24] < MuForbis> Hrm, just thinking out loud.
[2012-09-17 21:26:27] < MuForbis> ...
[2012-09-17 21:27:26] < MuForbis> Anyhow, shuffling this chapter around seems to produce huge potential differences in Shampoo's character arc
[2012-09-17 21:27:41] < MuForbis> (and maybe even determines whether there's room for a character arc for her)
[2012-09-17 21:27:58] < MuForbis> I'm not sure what you want in that regard, so I can't say what I'd recommend.
[2012-09-17 21:28:00] < Muphrid> Well, what you've pointed out to me is that Cologne doesn't have to win.
[2012-09-17 21:28:14] < MuForbis> Right.
[2012-09-17 21:28:27] < Muphrid> She doesn't have to get Shampoo's punishment lifted yet.
[2012-09-17 21:28:36] < MuForbis> Probably in that case you'd have to think about what subsequent circumstances reverse the punishment.
[2012-09-17 21:28:53] < Muphrid> That victory exists more, in the chapter as written, to emphasize that Bindi and Cologne are not so different.
[2012-09-17 21:28:56] < MuForbis> And what ability to manoeuvre Cologne *does* have left, and what she uses it for.
[2012-09-17 21:29:12] < MuForbis> Notably, Bindi and Cologne *could* still have a confrontation.
[2012-09-17 21:29:39] < MuForbis> And that whole spiel about each working to get what they want.
[2012-09-17 21:34:06] < Muphrid> I'm starting to think that Cologne's orchestrating this elaborate deception is, well, watered down because she resorts to bending the truth right away.
[2012-09-17 21:34:59] < Muphrid> She has a character arc over this chapter that is trying to come to terms with what happened to Ceruse and how she went too far in pushing for war.
[2012-09-17 21:35:28] < Muphrid> And for her to go right back to pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable and wise is...strange.
[2012-09-17 21:36:00] < MuForbis> Hm, maybe.
[2012-09-17 21:36:15] < MuForbis> Anyhow, it sounds like you're getting into story concerns I'm not familiar with yet.
[2012-09-17 21:36:33] < MuForbis> I'll leave you to decide how much of the chapter to rethink.
[2012-09-17 21:37:02] < Muphrid> Mm.  I think the environment is good, but I do need to do some thinking as far as some details of how it's used.
[2012-09-17 21:37:27] < MuForbis> In terms of C&C on Identity, I think I'll go back and take another look at the earlier chapters.
[2012-09-17 21:37:55] < MuForbis> There was more detailed C&C I was holding off on doing while that part of the story was being nailed down.
[2012-09-17 21:37:59] < MuForbis> ...
[2012-09-17 21:38:24] < Muphrid> Well, I sent off chapter 1 to another author who's familiar with the story, so who knows what he'll end up having to say and how that ripples through.
[2012-09-17 21:38:35] < MuForbis> In terms of setting, I'm liking that (it so happens) all of the narrative is in China and not Japan.
[2012-09-17 21:38:43] < MuForbis> Muphrid: ah, that's who the comments at the end were from.
[2012-09-17 21:38:52] < Muphrid> Hm?
[2012-09-17 21:39:16]  * MuForbis pulled down a raw latex file with a bunch of % c&c-type comments at the bottom
[2012-09-17 21:39:25] < Muphrid> No, those are mine.
[2012-09-17 21:39:29] < MuForbis> ah
[2012-09-17 21:39:47] < MuForbis> Muphrid addresses himself in the second person!
[2012-09-17 21:40:20] < MuForbis> anyhow.
[2012-09-17 21:41:02] < Muphrid> Yes.  I've only started to take down some comments are concerns about the chapter as I'm writing it to try to not lose so much time.
[2012-09-17 21:41:11] < Muphrid> *and, not are
[2012-09-17 21:41:42] < MuForbis> Anyhow, good luck figuring it out.
[2012-09-17 21:41:58] < Muphrid> So while I'm writing, if there's something I'm not sure and want to work out later, I'll note it and try to resolve it before posting, but I'm trying to keep more foward momentum.
[2012-09-17 21:42:19] < Muphrid> Yeah, thanks, I appreciate it.
[2012-09-17 21:42:51] < Muphrid> I spent a lot of time being unhappy with a lot of fine details on this chapter, and I just wanted to get it off my plate for a bit to let those work out and see what you thought, but now it's time to confront them I guess.
[2012-09-17 21:43:06] < Muphrid> Which is part of why it took as long as it did.
[2012-09-17 21:43:09] < MuForbis> It does feel harsh to keep sending you back to the drawing board on some aspects, but it's a neat story so far.
[2012-09-17 21:43:28] < MuForbis> So there's already stuff that's making it worth the work, I think.
[2012-09-17 21:44:06] < Muphrid> It's totally cool.  I like that Amazon politics and the storyline about Ceruse conceptually works. That's a start.
[2012-09-17 21:44:50] < Muphrid> *conceptually work, even, if we're being pedantic about subject-verb agreement.

So based on this, I think I'm going to do something along the lines of the following for chapter 4:

(1): The Amazons only know the Sorcerers have emerged based on the Guide's word and radio reports that Sorcerers have come out (but not yet captured a party)
(2): Cologne knows what Shampoo did to Akane
(3): Cologne tries to play things more or less straight-up; holding back the truth if it goes to Shampoo's advantage is not a big crime, but Shampoo should make a bold statement that can be clearly disproved and is worthy of silencing
(4): Overnight, word comes in that Amazons have been captured with Ranma, and a party must inevitably be sent now.  Cologne goes through her letters (like in the draft) and realizes that one of them is out of order.  In this draft, she *does* mention how Shampoo tried to attack Akane (this may be the only time we as readers realize that she knew the truth of the allegations all along and was trying to keep that quiet.)
(5): Cologne goes before the Council as they're voting (unanimously) to send a party, much to Bindi's displeasure.  Cologne accuses Bindi and Thanaka of being in league and rifling through her correspondence, which is a major violation.  Her proof is convincing (say, a thumbprint), enough that Bindi dismisses the Nine in an unusual move to gain some privacy.  Cologne insists that she and Shampoo head the rescue party, a decision that the Nine need not vote on once the party has been sent--it's an executive power that usually the Speakers are not questioned on.  Wanting to hold on to power, Bindi and Thanaka agree, but Shampoo's punishment is something the Nine must vote on, and lifting it is something Bindi will not allow, not yet.  Still, Cologne is victorious, and on the basis of faked evidence (the thumbprint, say, is her own).  She has gone all the way toward pushing the same boundaries she pushed when she drove the Amazons to war 20 years ago, and she finds she does not regret doing so.  She just hopes that Shampoo, with this punishment to learn from, can avoid making any more mistakes.