Sequelitis, on Zelda

[KLSymph]

Sequelitis - ZELDA: A Link to the Past vs. Ocarina of Time

Egoraptor finally made a new Sequelitis video, after like two years.  As usual, NSFW (profanity).  It rants about how story, fetch quests, and open-world exploration conflict, among other things.  I only played OoC once, but there's something to the view that OoC is rather fetch-questy and its success has impacted open-world game designs in an undesirable way, based on my open-world experiences.

[thepanda]

So, 30 minutes to say 'I don't care for the RPG elements taking over Zelda'?

[KLSymph]

Pretty much.

But is Zelda really very RPG-ish? I haven't played a Zelda since Ocarina, so I don't actually know.

[thepanda]

The 3D Zeldas are action rpgs.

What I'm wondering is if you can even call OoT open world?

[KLSymph]

Ocarina is old enough to predate and influence the development of what we'd call open world today.  Still, it's open enough that I'd characterize it as free-roaming.  The actual gameplay following the story is pretty linear, but that's true even for open world games today.

[Bezzerker]

For the Adult Link portion of OoT, there is a slight amount of freedom in the order you can tackle the temples. There are some enforced progressions, but it's not as strict as the Child Link dungeon order.

From what I've managed to find, there are seven different orders to tackle the temples, excluding the shenanigans of entering a dungeon and leaving it incomplete to explore another or utilizing glitches.

Spoiler: ShowHide

The seven orders are:
Forest -> Fire -> Water -> Shadow -> Spirit
Forest -> Fire -> Water -> Spirit -> Shadow
Fire -> Forest -> Water -> Shadow -> Spirit
Fire -> Forest -> Water -> Spirit -> Shadow
Forest -> Water -> Fire -> Shadow -> Spirit
Forest -> Water -> Fire -> Spirit -> Shadow
Forest -> Water -> Spirit -> Fire -> Shadow

And, evidently, the chance that someone might complete Jabu-Jabu's Belly before Dodongo's Cavern was accounted for, as the text will properly identify the Zora Sapphire as the second Spiritual Stone. I might test that out some time.

One of the issues I had with OoT that I share to a degree with Egoraptor is the lack of utilizing the items you get in the dungeons, outside of the dungeons. There are maybe one or two small grottoes that you need the item for, but generally that's it. I suspect that creating numerous secret areas for the player to find and explore was low on the list of things to create and was dropped due to time constraints, if the idea was considered feasible in the first place.

[Ergoemos]

You know, I first wanted to argue with him, but I grew to agree with some of his points.

Of course, I think the integral problem with it is trying to compare the 2d version of a game to a version of 3d. I intrinsically think of them as different styles of game, and simply imagine them as artistically influencing one another. Much like how Metroid for the Super Nintendo is completely separate from Metroid Prime. They aren't the same games, just the same source materials.

That said, I actually haven't completed a 3D game of Zelda since Majora's Mask. I loved the aesthetic and direction of Twilight Princess. Why did I stop playing? Mostly the linearity that every obstacle put me through. By contrast, I loved the closed nature of Majora's Mask. It was contained, not so much by the world as it is contained by a fourth dimension of time.

There wasn't enough time to complete every single quest, and you can't beat the game and solve every problem in the same run through (I don't think). I loved that nature of the game. Also, transforming was cool. Definitely my favorite Zelda game.

[Dracos]

If you're saying a run being 72 hour gameplay cycle, no, you can't.  There's at least one quest that does occupy a significant portion of time and require basically not being in a fight with the boss until really late on the 3rd day that'd be mutually exclusive with that.

I just suddenly lost interest in Twilight Princess.  Never even started Skyward Sword.  I view these more as a problem of too much talking and scope.  The whole "Woo, Open World Zelda" is getting back to its roots in practice, but it still doesn't intrigue.

[Ergoemos]

Yeah. Its the kind of time loop that is can be the most horrifying. No matter how many items you get or skills you learn, you can't save everyone before the end of the game.

And I got really attached to certain events in the game as ones I needed to finish before "closing" the loop with the final boss, like saving the girl on Romani ranch.

The failure scene and her reaction after she returns marked me more emphatically than I can think of any other game doing.

[Dracos]

Mmm, I always took it as you had shadows of yourself going in parallel, and that the good ending was really, you saving everyone and whatnot.