Rulezes~!!!

[Brian]

Okay, guys.  We've got the guild, now we just need rules.

I can't really think of any rules that I'd like to see employed that aren't already in place thanks to Blizzard....  But we should throw out any ideas or concerns we have now, so we can be sure that we create rules we're all comfortable with.

Right now, I'm going to say I'd like to rule out requiring or enforcing in-guild discounts.  If someone's willing to offer one, great, but don't go demanding it. ;)

Beyond that, my only real concern is that everyone remember that when you do something, you're not only doing it as your character, you're doing it as a member of the guild.  So ... try and avoid starting fights or making people angry (except maybe against the Horde).  I understand that it's inevitable at some point that we're going to make someone angry for some reason, so don't see the reason to make it a rule, per se, but I would like to remind people that everyone who sees you in the game also sees <Soulriders> next to your name.

That's it from me.  Now if only we can get people to log out and read the forums....

[Rezantis]

I'd like to get some basic ground rules down covering loot and general grouping situations.  They may or may not be needed, but I reckon we should have a guild policy on the matter.

Thoughts?

[Brian]

Not a bad idea.  I think we should turn to you as a source of inspiration for this; most of us don't understand what the later parts of the game are like, so don't know what's the most reasonable right away.

What suggestions do you have on this?

[Brian]

After compiling my own knowledge of various other MMORPGs, basically, I think the fairest method of loot distribution is to make sure that everyone gets their fair share.

On the other hand, unless the loot method is free-for-all, group loot should see that everyone gets equal shares of everything.  I suppose someone could roll on every single item that comes up, but that's kind of rude to other people in your party.

Really, I'm not sure I'm comfortable using rules for loot distribution.  Especially without feedback from the rest of the guild.  So, I'd have to say that until we get real rules, we should just stick with common-sense polite policies.

Pretty much, that means don't roll for things you don't need/can't equip in group loot (even if you're an enchanter; I only take what no one else in the party can/is willing to use).  If you're going on a long trek through a dungeon (or an instance), sometimes it works well to just have one person with inventory space grab all of the items no one needs right off the bat to be divied up later amongst the party, before everyone leaves.

I personally prefer the latter.

I guess what Rez is really asking about, reading back on what I've written in my rambling narrative, is what our policy should be with regards to people outside of the guild (no one in the guild should be doing things with loot that make other people unhappy, or I'd like to hear about it).  In my opinion, our policy should just be that we want a fair share.  I don't think anyone will have a problem with anyone from Soulriders saying they want the loot distribution at least decided before they join a party.

Other than that, I do want to remind everyone that whatever you do, you have that <Soulriders> tag on your name, and what you do reflects on all of us.  So don't do anything with loot that makes other people mad, if you can help it.  I'm sure there's unreasonable people out there, but hey, if you don't like someone's loot policy, don't party with them.

[CyMage]

I disagree a bit on the 'Don't roll for stuff you can't use as an Enchanter'.  I would say roll for it unless it's 'Bind on acquire', but be willing to give it up if someone mentions that they can use it for a character.  

I've yet to see anyone pass me an item that I can disenchant to further my skill.  I've seen more of the 'Can anyone use this? Besides enchanting.  No? Ok, I'll keep it.'

[Brian]

That explains why my run with you got me less than 50 silver, and the run I did with Rez got me 90.

[CyMage]

I guess you're talking about the Deadmines run.  I will point out that I gave up one or two items I won when others said they can use them.  Also the only 'Bind on acquire' item I rolled for was the sword we received from Van Cleef himself.  I automatically passed on Cookies Stiring Rod.  I could have rolled for it to disenchant it because I already got my own copy, but I was trying to be fair to the others.

Also I think the reason you got more money with Pinkie is because he's so far ahead that unless he's trying to equip an alt character, he wouldn't be interested in most of the loot there.

[Rezantis]

I disagree a bit on the 'Don't roll for stuff you can't use as an Enchanter'.  I would say roll for it unless it's 'Bind on acquire', but be willing to give it up if someone mentions that they can use it for a character.  

I've yet to see anyone pass me an item that I can disenchant to further my skill.  I've seen more of the 'Can anyone use this? Besides enchanting.  No? Ok, I'll keep it.'

I've grouped with enchanters before, and . . . eh.  I think that's fair if you start paying the rest of the group silver for the items you take.  I mean, by that logic?  I'm a tailor, I need cloth, which I can buy with the money from the items I find.

As a general rule, btw, I follow close to that rule Brian outlined above; roll on what you want, divvy up remainder at the end.  I think I pulled about 80-90 silver out of the run I did with Brian.  It was actually pretty well organised.  People rolled on the stuff they wanted, I and the priest collected all the items people didn't roll on, they got handed out at the end, everyone made a nifty profit.  Notably, the enchanter in the party got a fair few things to disenchant as well.

[CyMage]

Ok, that might work then.  As long as everyone gets a chance at the extra loot.  Others will probably use it for money, I've yet to sell a green item to a vendor.  

And my offer of free enchantments for the guild still stands, I just don't advertise it as much anymore since I got a few to choose.  It's hard to type them all out. :/

[Antitribu]

Hi,

I'm fairly new to the forum but I'm sure by this point I've run into all of you online more than once. As you may or may not know I play a druid and am limited in my gear selection, true not as much as a mage or warlock but its still prohibitive when it comes to gear selection.

<imho> My perspective on loot is need before greed with an additional house rule that runs something along the lines of don't roll for gear below what you can take. So as a druid who can wear leather, I'm not rolling on cloth, paladins/warriors don't roll on leather and so on and so forth.

I think this is fair for a few reasons; firstly it strengthens the group/guild if everyone has the best potential gear for their class. A strong and fair guild policy will attract more members if that's our goal or at the worst make people think twice before trying to take us down a notch. Secondly its more enjoyable when everyone nets something out of a group excursion. Obviously concessions need to be made when the party is comprised largely of a single or similar class.

In reference to the above mentioned Deadmines excursion let me get off topic for a second and mention professions in general. While a nice addition to the game and undoubtedly useful they don't, at least for my mind, satisfy an all consuming and driving goal. Personally I believe they should be left until your soloing or even waiting for a group to finish in a town. By all means if you trip over a mine/plant/skinable corpse feel free to take it at no risk to the group, however it is not enjoyable to wait for people while they pick the flowers, no matter how pretty they may be... /me smirks at Rez....

So on that note with collection of items for enchanting, as an enchanter could theoretically use any green item found it seems fundamentally unfair that they collect everything nobody else wants without properly compensating the group. I won't play as a stooge so the enchanters amongst us can make money while shafting us, however I am perfectly happy to play as a mercenary if I'm properly compensated.

That said, under no circumstances what so ever should an enchanter be so selfish to role on a blue item that another member of the group could use. An example of this is the Smiths Hammer in the Deadmines, Lindelle (a druid) did roll and had she of won I would have been quite jealous, but a warlock rolling on a rare item for no other reason than enchantment fodder is just insane. I am aware that Kerasyn after seeing the roll also threw the dice and by statistical miracle or perhaps karma walked away with the prize. My point is that hammer was far above what I had then and in fact now still use and this is a perfect example of why enchanters should not be permitted to roll purely for enchantment purposes.

In that instance I believe that Koryn, you walked away with no less that 60% of the green items from that run, those that were there can attest this is a conservative estimate. In a party of 5, this is simply unfair. While I agree the majority of items were unwanted, we all know how scarce cash is and can always use more. In addition, I, as I'm sure many of you, value my real world time too much to waste for no reward (if any one suggests that the pleasure of Kerasyns company is its own reward they get hit).

Additionally I do realise that enchanters need green items for their profession and that regrettably denies others of the money that could be gained by selling them, but a profession should not be use as carte blanch to roll on everything that comes up.

So my conclusion is thus, as I believe professions are secondary while grouping, enchanters should certainly not roll on all items, bind on equip or pickup. There is no urgency for an enchanter to acquire items until the end of a grouping beyond base greed. As such my proposal is simple:

1. Group discussion before the instance to decide any required rules due to party composition;
2. Need before greed;
3. The clock on the roll is designed to give you time to consult, use it;
4. No rolling on equipment below your station; and
5. Green items available at heavily discounted cost to enchanters at the end of the campaign.

</imho>

and while I'm posting can somebody point me to a list of the smileys you kids use today? I swear some of them look more like you sneezed and bumped the keyboard...

oh sorry if the above was long winded, thanks for reading...

[Brian]

The Codex of Infinite Smileys has been lost.  You're going to have to figure it out yourself.

Everything you suggested makes sense to me, though I wasn't under the impression that things were severe enough it also needed to be spelled out so explicitly.

For what it's worth, I've heard one of the easiest ways to gain money was by 'farming' low-level instances solo once you got stronger.

The only thing I have to say that might go against what Anti outlined would be the possibility of arranging an expedition specifically for a tradeskill.  Like hunting for leather, or going into a dungeon where ore veins can easily be found.  Or just battling through a nasty area for some herbs.  Enchantment doesn't have a specific resource to be mined, but expeditions could be arranged to look for green items anyway.

Of course, in these instances, expectations would have been set beforehand.  No one would be surprised about getting almost no loot.

[CyMage]

Hiya, Anti.  I would like to say that I've learned a bit since that first Deadmine run.  Until then the only bind on pick up items I ran into were quest items, and they asked me if I wanted to take them.  The hammer was a newb mistake, and I pay more attention now.

And may I suggest yet another alternative that combines parts from the others?  

Have a designated 'looter', most likely the party leader, who picks up most of the items.  The only items that would be rolled for right away, would be Bind on Pick Up, with the Need Before Greed clause.  So no warriors rolling for wands, etc.  Then after the quest/instance/whatever is complete, the loot is divided.  First divide the loot for people who will actually use the item.  If someone wants a pair of pants because they are better then their current one, they get it.  Roll off if more then one person wants it.  Then if there is still stuff left over but nobody wants it to replace their current stuff, start rolling it off for the whole group.  Whoever wins the first item, sits out the next set of rolls, then the winner of the second sits out the next set, etc.  After all the other party members won something, the last person gets an item automatically.  Then it starts from the top again if there are more items.  In a group of five it would be 5 rolls, then 4, then 3, then 2 and then the last person gets something.

[Brian]

Master Loot is also an option.  Anything CAN work, as long as everyone knows what the plan is going in.  Generally, as long as everyone is aware of everyone else, it should be fine.

Therefore, I think given what we've gone over, our loot policy (at least, as far as what our OFFICIAL stance is) should be: negotiable.  Generally speaking, Anti and Cy both had really good ideas of how to handle things.  I can't think anyone will have a problem with this, and if they do, they were told up front, and can avoid any nasty surprises.

[Antitribu]

Brian is quite correct in that anything can work so long as agreed beforehand. I'm quite in favour of the master looter idea with the only exception being that it require an all guild member party or at least the master looter be a guild member. I'm not sure the success you would have convincing Joe Everypaladin that he will get his share at the end. There are serious trust issues to be taken into account and I'm beginning to wish WoW had some sort of pack mule à la Dungeon Siege that could be used as a shared store.... It can also be time consuming and complicated divvying up the loot at the end of an instance and keeping full track of who took what, when for those drops that bind on pickup and the potential for a dishonest or forgetful leader is great. I only pray we don't devolve to the point where we have a group accountant because group lawyers wont be far behind :P.

While I think of it, another issue for the master looter is what of those that leave the quest half way through? While arguably anyone who leaves you on the bottom of an instance surrounded by unhappy ogres has forfeited his or her share, still its food for thought.

Oh and if you go into a group formed for the express purpose of farming/professions etc of course my above post goes out the window, the above are my thoughts on what the general rules of order should be.

Perhaps there may be some sort of variant on a need before greed + round robin system that could be investigated.

The primary problem as I see it actually links back to party composition, for me at least it would be quite rare that I would be in a party comprised exclusively of Soulriders. As such some measure of explaining is going to be required at the outset of every quest anyway and a uniform guild policy while nice, sort of a moot point.

[Brian]

That's why our official policy is (unless there are stringent objections): negotiable. ;)