Destroy the Megaelixir Production Plant

[Dracos]

I've got a bit of a change for those making games.  You know, we've got those healing items.  The tiny heal, the mid heal, the x-heal, whatever you want to call 'em.  Every game has their bunch of potions covering usually the lower tier until you get super cure spells that everyone promptly switches to.  And everyone keeps with this even as they add in the special ones: elixirs that give full hp and mp!  Then, you know, they tend to keep going.  They'll give maybe one or two megaelixirs... And then the game breaks.  Right there.  

   Yeah, I know, hard to say as usually most these games aren't the height of difficulty to begin with, but just think about what they give.  In theory, a megaelixir doubles the capacity of the party.  It allows them to go right back to perfect state for pretty much everything.  In theory.  In practice it isn't that good as you generally don't get more than 50-70 percent restored back (You don't go all the way to the brink with everyone still alive).  But hey, that tends to mean that if you're anywhere near being capable of taking down a boss, you'll take them down with an extra 50 percent of your ability.  And that's not to say if you have two or three or...fourty.  Could they balance against this?  No, because it is a consumable item you don't necessarily get, so balancing against it would screw over everyone who doesn't get it and make the whole thing feel miserable to begin with.

   Why are they needed?  FFIVa opened my eyes to the sheer silliness of them, giving me the opportunity to collect 41 of them by the time I fought the hardest boss in the game.  41 megaelixirs.  Had I wasted them frivolously at the rate of one per 'round', I would've not run out by the end of the battle.  Had I used them conservatively?  The boss could have had thirty trillion hp and I would've outlasted him.  That's insane.  Was there the illusion of challenge?  Sure, but how well can it really work when an intelligent play style and those items can poof everyone back to perfect in the flick of a wrist?  Bosses shouldn't need thirty trillion hp to push heroes to the edge and give them the sensation that they're going to lose.  Even with one or two, it vastly extends the ability of the heroes to survive, usually making any sort of risk illusionary and based on the fact most folks are too conservative to 'waste' such a valuable item on a boss that clearly isn't hard enough to merit it.  The boss almost never ends up being hard enough to merit it, so they end up beating the game with 1 or 2 or 20 of them.

   But wait, what about bosses that just win by doing damage quickly?  Well, sure, they still work, but then it fiercely limits the type of bosses you encounter.  When the majority of a bosses danger is placed solely in moves that kill in one or two hits or dash out all group status ailments, it just becomes a battle of dishing out damage really quickly and equipping the right stuff before hand.  Instead, to get the 'length' type bosses, designers are just adding in billions of hp.  That's retarded.  Sure, a boss that's going to be doing something other than brutally dishing out near death or death hits to everyone needs lots of hp, but would they need it if the heroes didn't have a few things stuck in their bag to allow them to go to max right at the wink of an eye?  Could we do without this being a semicommon reward for one of the side quests?

   I think we could get rid of the whole set.  The item concept really could be done without and just sits there in the inventory either unused or ruining any future 'hard' bosses that are come across.

[Jason_Miao]

Instead, to get the 'length' type bosses, designers are just adding in billions of hp. That's retarded.

Or they make bosses temporarily immortal and "script" the heros' deaths, in order to make him seem like a really badass.  Of course, this doesn't work when you meet him again and he dies of the flu when you sneeze on him.

Sure, a boss that's going to be doing something other than brutally dishing out near death or death hits to everyone needs lots of hp, but would they need it if the heroes didn't have a few things stuck in their bag to allow them to go to max right at the wink of an eye? Could we do without this being a semicommon reward for one of the side quests

Or maybe just turn it back into a rare item.  Perhaps a unique nonfarmable item that you have to actually quest for, not just find in some guy's sock drawer.

[Merc]

They shouldn't just make elixirs helpful. They should make them addictive, like a drug. The more you use them to get high on HP/MP, the more addicted you get to them, until you end up with no money or good weapons/armor due to all the megaelixirs in your inventory. Attempting to go cold turkey to remove addiction results in a loss of exp, HP and MP as well as a certain amount of money to be given to a hospital depending on the level of addiction. If you finish the game with a certain level of addiction, you automatically get a "Bad Ending" as opposed to a good ending, where we see a twitching hero restrained in a padded cell, tied to a bed through his straitjacket, muttering about his megaelixirs. Pan out to other cells where we see the other characters suffering similarly, as doctors shaking their heads, muttering about how it's a shame such people were once known as heroes.

Thus, the amount of usage that the items get becomes significantly lower due to the price for using them.

[Ebiris]

Or they make bosses temporarily immortal and "script" the heros' deaths, in order to make him seem like a really badass.  Of course, this doesn't work when you meet him again and he dies of the flu when you sneeze on him.

For the love of God, no!

Scripted boss battles that you're forced to lose are the worst form of laziness. Star Ocean 2 did this - I'd done a pretty good job twinking out my party to blow through everything they came across, then I ran into a boss I could barely scratch. So I start using up items and whatnot, but eventually I'm worn down to party death.

Crap. Looks like I'll have to powerlevel for a... huh? That's not the game over screen!

This elicted a hearty 'Fuck you!' in the game's direction, whereupon I loaded my last save so I could throw the 'boss' fight and save all my items.

Then, as you said, the next time I met that boss outside of his scripted awesome plot device aura I killed him flat in no time at all.

They shouldn't just make elixirs helpful. They should make them addictive, like a drug. The more you use them to get high on HP/MP, the more addicted you get to them, until you end up with no money or good weapons/armor due to all the megaelixirs in your inventory. Attempting to go cold turkey to remove addiction results in a loss of exp, HP and MP as well as a certain amount of money to be given to a hospital depending on the level of addiction.

Play Fallout. Right now. There are a variety of drugs in the game, from crack-a-likes that do nothing but get you high, steroids, psycho-combat-drugs, brain pills, anti-radiation medicine, the lot. And every one of them has a chance of getting you addicted on repeated use (the crack drug does so if you even use it once). Going cold turkey is not pretty, and you can indeed buy (or do a sidequest to create in the case of the crack-type drug) medicine to cure the addiction.

It's awesome.

[Dracos]

Or they make bosses temporarily immortal and "script" the heros' deaths, in order to make him seem like a really badass.  Of course, this doesn't work when you meet him again and he dies of the flu when you sneeze on him.

For the love of God, no!

Scripted boss battles that you're forced to lose are the worst form of laziness. Star Ocean 2 did this - I'd done a pretty good job twinking out my party to blow through everything they came across, then I ran into a boss I could barely scratch. So I start using up items and whatnot, but eventually I'm worn down to party death.

Crap. Looks like I'll have to powerlevel for a... huh? That's not the game over screen!

This elicted a hearty 'Fuck you!' in the game's direction, whereupon I loaded my last save so I could throw the 'boss' fight and save all my items.

Then, as you said, the next time I met that boss outside of his scripted awesome plot device aura I killed him flat in no time at all.

Triace deserves much hate for those.  Rather than the piles of cash they get =p

Dracos
testyedit

[Dracos]

Instead, to get the 'length' type bosses, designers are just adding in billions of hp. That's retarded.

Or they make bosses temporarily immortal and "script" the heros' deaths, in order to make him seem like a really badass.  Of course, this doesn't work when you meet him again and he dies of the flu when you sneeze on him.

Sure, a boss that's going to be doing something other than brutally dishing out near death or death hits to everyone needs lots of hp, but would they need it if the heroes didn't have a few things stuck in their bag to allow them to go to max right at the wink of an eye? Could we do without this being a semicommon reward for one of the side quests

Or maybe just turn it back into a rare item.  Perhaps a unique nonfarmable item that you have to actually quest for, not just find in some guy's sock drawer.

Making them rare doesn't help its base condition: If you have a megaelixir in your inventory, bosses are inherently significantly less effectual against your entire party to a degree where the sense of real danger is largely moot.  Special armor might accomplish similar stuff, but it is usually only for one person at least.

Dracos

[Jason_Miao]

They shouldn't just make elixirs helpful. They should make them addictive, like a drug. The more you use them to get high on HP/MP, the more addicted you get to them, until you end up with no money or good weapons/armor due to all the megaelixirs in your inventory. Attempting to go cold turkey to remove addiction results in a loss of exp, HP and MP as well as a certain amount of money to be given to a hospital depending on the level of addiction. If you finish the game with a certain level of addiction, you automatically get a "Bad Ending" as opposed to a good ending, where we see a twitching hero restrained in a padded cell, tied to a bed through his straitjacket, muttering about his megaelixirs. Pan out to other cells where we see the other characters suffering similarly, as doctors shaking their heads, muttering about how it's a shame such people were once known as heroes.

Hey, buddy.  You look a little depressed.  You gotta fight the Dark Lord Kwok?  Well, I've got just what you need.  I'm tellin' ya, one hit of the Megaelixer, and you'll feel like you're the healthiest you've ever been.  You'll feel like a million bucks, I tell ya!  And that's how much it costs: a million bucks...hey, where are ya goin?  Come back!

Making them rare doesn't help its base condition: If you have a megaelixir in your inventory, bosses are inherently significantly less effectual against your entire party to a degree where the sense of real danger is largely moot.

Which isn't bad in itself in small doses.  Sometimes you just want to get that last goddamn item so you can just move on, but the characters you've chosen to level up are all weak against that boss, and you'd rather not spend another 3 days leveling up the other ones.

OTOH, it's a real problem when none of the game feels challenging, because you have a billion of the things lying around.

Scripted boss battles that you're forced to lose are the worst form of laziness. Star Ocean 2 did this - I'd done a pretty good job twinking out my party to blow through everything they came across, then I ran into a boss I could barely scratch. So I start using up items and whatnot, but eventually I'm worn down to party death.

I did the same thing in Skies of Arcadia for about half an hour.  Then, I realized that the health bar had not decreased one bit, and I promptly screamed by rage at the heavens and lazy game designers.

[Karlinn]

The thing with Megaelixers (and their ilk) is they're basically rainy day items, and when they're scarce, it's been my experience that they tend not to get used anyway.  Basically, it's the assumption that there's always the chance something worse is going to come along where they'll really be needed.  And boom, before you know it, it's the end of the game as we know it, and everybody feels fine.

In part, I think it's because a lot of people learn, quickly, to work within the confines of what they're given.  Preserving the valuable tools or skills, getting by obstacles with as little effort or wasted resources as possible - these are fairly intuitive concepts with everyday applications, and they translate to a variety of in-game scenarios.  Point is, by the time a halfway decent player gets them, they probably don't need them, as they'll be trained to get by without jumping for the big guns first.

Meanwhile, these items, as has been said before, are so powerful that they're likely to break the challenge of a given fight.  Of course, there is a practical benefit to having an item that can turn around a fight that just went sour, or something that the player simply wasn't ready for - and such situations can still be challenging.  I don't think they break the whole game unless they're easy to acquire and/or fairly numerous, but I do see the argument about difficulty.

Also: I second the recommendation of Fallout, and not only because it proves that drugs can do good things when you're trying to save/depopulate the world.

[Jason_Miao]

The thing with Megaelixers (and their ilk) is they're basically rainy day items, and when they're scarce, it's been my experience that they tend not to get used anyway.

Which neatly solves the balance issue. :)  Actually, it's better, because it gives a "Really Cool Reward" for some sidegame noone really wanted to play anyway, but if it's never used, then it won't break any future challenges.

Also: I second the recommendation of Fallout, and not only because it proves that drugs can do good things when you're trying to save/depopulate the world.

But...but then you'll be encouraging them to take drugs.  Jack Thompson(sp?) says that people can't distinguish games and real life.  Just ask all of those people he found who used to play Tetris and were then compelled to become bricklayers and stonemasons!

[Dracos]

The thing with Megaelixers (and their ilk) is they're basically rainy day items, and when they're scarce, it's been my experience that they tend not to get used anyway.

Which neatly solves the balance issue. :)  Actually, it's better, because it gives a "Really Cool Reward" for some sidegame noone really wanted to play anyway, but if it's never used, then it won't break any future challenges.

Eeeh.  Whatever happened to the good old days of giving a medal for it or something?

Dracos

[Anastasia]

Or they make bosses temporarily immortal and "script" the heros' deaths, in order to make him seem like a really badass.  Of course, this doesn't work when you meet him again and he dies of the flu when you sneeze on him.

For the love of God, no!

Scripted boss battles that you're forced to lose are the worst form of laziness. Star Ocean 2 did this - I'd done a pretty good job twinking out my party to blow through everything they came across, then I ran into a boss I could barely scratch. So I start using up items and whatnot, but eventually I'm worn down to party death.

Crap. Looks like I'll have to powerlevel for a... huh? That's not the game over screen!

This elicted a hearty 'Fuck you!' in the game's direction, whereupon I loaded my last save so I could throw the 'boss' fight and save all my items

Quoting Ebiris for TRUTH. Fuck, scripted auto loss battles are the fucking pits. They're usually horrible laziness, unless it's possible to win them with absurb powerlevelling and get cool rewards or even find a hidden path. (Leon 1 from ToD and Gades 1 from Lufia 2 come to mind.) Most of the time, it's infuriating to have a battle that's rigged to smash you apart, moreso if it's done in bad taste.

[Anastasia]

Sure, a boss that's going to be doing something other than brutally dishing out near death or death hits to everyone needs lots of hp, but would they need it if the heroes didn't have a few things stuck in their bag to allow them to go to max right at the wink of an eye? Could we do without this being a semicommon reward for one of the side quests

Or maybe just turn it back into a rare item.  Perhaps a unique nonfarmable item that you have to actually quest for, not just find in some guy's sock drawer.

Pretty much. Elixers and the ilk are nice if they're both rare and appreciated when you find one. Make a single Elixer or two a worthy reward for beating a touch boss or solving a difficult puzzle, not something you find in every clock in the world. A single Megaexiler in the game is great, especially if you give a boss near it a massive HP to 1 and MP to 0 draining attack, say...

In other words, make them count or they make your PCs resistant to HP and MP death.

[Jason_Miao]

Eeeh. Whatever happened to the good old days of giving a medal for it or something?

If the player never uses it, that's exactly what it is.

They're usually horrible laziness, unless it's possible to win them with absurb powerlevelling and get cool rewards or even find a hidden path. (Leon 1 from ToD and Gades 1 from Lufia 2 come to mind.)

Heh.  Ever try to go with some absurd powerleveling in ChronoTrigger and beat Lavos the first time through?  (As for me, the answer is yes.  But I get really bored from 'leveling up' in FF games, so I gave up after half an hour)

[Dracos]

Well see...

I'm of the thought that the 'everyone hp to 1' gets overused as it stands.  but meh.

Dracos

[Ebiris]

Heh.  Ever try to go with some absurd powerleveling in ChronoTrigger and beat Lavos the first time through?  (As for me, the answer is yes.  But I get really bored from 'leveling up' in FF games, so I gave up after half an hour)

Powerlevel in Chronotrigger? Beating Lavos at the start is what New Game + is for!