The Time Gap

[Dracos]

Recently took a step back to the past, this last weekend, reading books I haven't read for years, some Dragonlance, some old fanfics, and a bit of the Ender series by Orson Card.   Now, admittingly, I enjoyed the whole thing a fair deal more when I was younger.  Certain tidbits of the writing didn't leap out to my old critical eyes like they do now.  But one thing sort of stuck with me a bit as it was something that a lot of writers have trouble with.

   In his second book in the Ender quartet, he has this monumental time leap, some three thousand odd years.  He comes up with a pretty reasonable explanation for how he keeps the same heroes still about and I give him kudos for it.  He's aged them somewhat reasonably.  Yet he left a bit of a problem.  Folks are still talking about them, about their works and writings, about them as people, about the big war and such.  They have emotion and caring regarding events of three thousand years prior, strong ones in fact.

   Now, rather than simply saying obviously this is wrong, a thought exercise.  Think about the biggest war you can remember, then the last five before it.  Think about the guy who did the most heinous deeds out of the bunch in the oldest of those wars.  Can't remember his name?  What about the guy who did the best?  If you can remember both, you're probably a fair student of history as it stands.  Now, think about a war that happened a thousand years ago, name it, and name one of the most wicked participants.  Hard task, no?  Yet, this is the very traphole he, as well as many game writers, fall into.  A thousand years ago, there was this war, yet people still remember and are greatly affected by the thoughts and history and heroes of it.  Maybe it's five hundred sometimes...  but even then, it has the same fixable problem.

   Now, it might be noted in his case, he left a bit of an out in near biblical type writings mentioning them.  This doesn't work well either.  How many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one?  Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity?  Books teach facts for the most part, not the emotional ties to the events.

   It's a common flaw in game stories and book ones, that's somewhat easily rectified.  There's actually a really great source for balancing such gaps:  Our own actual history.  There's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally.  It's possibly the best source for gearing the adaptability of people, but almost no one seems to draw on it.  Got a war that you want still strongly in the minds of the people?  Set it five to fifteen years ago and it'll work like a charm.  Want something far in history but remembered?  Figure out about two generations worth of years.  That'd do it.  In effect: The time gap that is used should be appropriate to the effect desired, not chosen first for niceness of length.

Dracos

[Olvelsper]

Bleh. On second thought, I worded my last post funny, so I'm going to try again. In order to justify people feeling strongly about things that happened hundreds of years or more, you can always have something world shifting haven taken place.

Like the entire world turning into a desert or something.

[Dracos]

I'm not even sure about that.  The only things I can think of that  folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations (and most the time, not even the latter).  The events stop, for the most part, being directly discussed.  Their effects may be mentioned, but a hundred years is 3-4 generations.  It's saying "I feel strongly about what was going on when my great grandfather was a child, but are not happening now" which generally implies a pretty stagnant culture set.  Two centuries is even more along that.  It's a good eight generations about apart.  That's usually lots of events and even wars.

Dracos

[Olvelsper]

As bad as this makes me feel, I'm going to have to go and provide an example from FFX. Maybe something along the lines of Sin's rampaging across the world killing the population all the damn time would make people feel strongly about it. You can't necessarily ignore or grow apathetic to things like that.

Although now that I think about it, you always run the risk about the origins being made obscure because everyone is desperate to survive.

[Dracos]

Oh, certainly, but sin isn't something in the past.  There's no time gap there.  It's an omnipresent being currently about.

For a timegap to exist you need something along the lines of:

"X00 years ago, this happened conclusively.  Now, we talk about it, it becomes relevant, etc."

A rampaging beast, even an old one, is still a current event.  A war going on today, even if it's lasted 50 years, is still a current event...

Of course, I'd still say in either case to draw from history.  Particularly prolonged occupations.  That's the best examples really to capture human response to prolonged warfare/monster attacks.  Things such as open trust for strangers would likely get a bit slashed in drawing from such.  I would say that's almost an inverse-time-gap.  Rather than a gap between events, we have an event that does not end and thus should show longterm population effects.

Dracos

[thepanda]

In the case of Dragonlance, though, isn't their history mostly forgotten by pretty much everyone already outside of 'there were gods, they got pissed, dropped a flaming mountain, and then left'?

It only became important again when 'oh shit, dragons!' happened.

Edit:

Add to that the fact that all the races on the planet didn't experience time in the same way and I could see an arguement for some of the passion expressed thusly. After all, two generations of elves is not the same as two generations of humans in that worldset.

[Dracos]

Dragonlance was only mentioned because of the opening segue.  It was not used as an example.

Dracos

[thepanda]

Ah, well. . . >_>;

[Dracos]

I do that since it is often a more relaxed opener than "THE TIME GAP IS THIS!"

Dracos

[twentytwo]

Dracos-

The only things I can think of that folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations...

True, but when the exploits of the past become somewhat blown out of proportion, don't they BECOME legends, and ultimately religion?

As some point, you disconnect from the events of the past, especially when the society described in it is nothing like its current rendition. They become fairytales, and ultimately, in order to believe they really happened, you have to accept them by faith...

There really WAS a George Washington. You can take my word for it!


Dracos-

How many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one? Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity?

True THEY may not be as important, but the more iconic figures like Jesus are debated almost daily. Some people argue he was a revolutionary or some kind of lunatic... (some say Mary Magdelene was his wife, and others say he was...)

For the world of Ender's Game, you have this war that affects the lives of everyone - a massive interplanetary war. For one man to bring that to a close, especially a young boy, is just monumental... almost biblical.

Such a hero is a hero for a world in dire need of someone honest to believe in (which is understandable, if you think about who really CAUSED that war to begin with).


Dracos-

There's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally.

That's an issue now, but it wasn't that way a couple thousand years ago. Society today is constantly bombarded with new and more interesting things (mostly due to the spread of information). Back in the past, there wasn't much to do when your day was just Wake Up, Raise Barn, Farm, Eat, Sleep. For less advanced cultures, history is everything. This is where celebrations come in. Every year, Americans celebrate Independence Day, or Memorial Day, even if they don't always know what it stands for.

In simple terms: Heroes stay alive as long as the culture that celebrates him remembers him and continues to celebrate. If that means thousands of years, then so be it.

But then, that's why it's good to be a writer (/ historian...?).
You can make anything seem real...
-22
-------

"Thar' she blows...
 Thar' she blows again...
   That cursed white whale.
And I just can't forget..
  What it felt like to have a leg."
- Moby Dick, Pop-Culture Edition

[Karlinn]

A question: are we talking about wars between nations here, or wars between typical forces of Light and Darkness, one of which is hell-bent on erasing the other from existence?  I can see plain ol' fashioned wars growing murky with time, but if Satan punches a hole up through Hell in the middle of Rome, and Joe Pesci saves us by jamming a screwdriver in his neck, I could see that sticking in the public consciousness for some time.

Simple events* of epic proportions** stay with people.  Of course, that's moot if we're not talking simple events or epic proportions, in which case I would agree that heroes stepping out of a millenia-spanning time bubble and being hailed as heroes would be a tad askew.

*taken to mean, "highly visible bad guys do evil things, highly visible good guys stop them".

**taken to mean, "events that involve the fate of every living thing in the world, and often the very world itself, both conceptually and as a physical object".

[Dracos]

Dracos-

The only things I can think of that folks feel strongly about that's more than a hundred years old is religions and nations...

True, but when the exploits of the past become somewhat blown out of proportion, don't they BECOME legends, and ultimately religion?

As some point, you disconnect from the events of the past, especially when the society described in it is nothing like its current rendition. They become fairytales, and ultimately, in order to believe they really happened, you have to accept them by faith...

There really WAS a George Washington. You can take my word for it!

Yes, but they don't feel very strongly about it.  It doesn't come up day to day.  You don't walk past people talking about George Washington.  You walk past them talking about 'recent current event' and possibly 'last couple big events' that are similar in pattern.

Do people have a conscious view on George Washington?  Certainly.  Do they discuss it with others?  Generally not.  Even though that was a country shaking event. (Founding even =P)

Dracos-

How many times do people mention Joseph or Paul or Solomon in any sense but an ancient history one? Who, outside of schools of religion, even pretends to debate their motives and thoughts with any intensity?

True THEY may not be as important, but the more iconic figures like Jesus are debated almost daily. Some people argue he was a revolutionary or some kind of lunatic... (some say Mary Magdelene was his wife, and others say he was...)

Outside of religious theorists and historians, I've yet to be involved or overhear folks talking in such a manner.  For others, more  recent things tend to take precedence in their consciousness and, unless specifically brought onto that subject, they generally don't spout their views on it.

Jesus, outside of religious quotage, doesn't really come up terribly often in everyday discussion.  And even when his icon does.  Mmm...

Admittingly, though, I wouldn't see anything wrong with instigating such a discussion on such a figure in a game world.  I would see stuff wrong with just introducing it via casual talking.

Mmm, possibly not getting this across right.  You're definitely on ball with iconism.  But I think the propensity of that comes from him being kept as an icon of a living current thing (chrisitian religion).  Similarly retained tales, such as the much younger King Arthur ones, don't get discussed in such a vein because they aren't attached to a living culture.

For the world of Ender's Game, you have this war that affects the lives of everyone - a massive interplanetary war. For one man to bring that to a close, especially a young boy, is just monumental... almost biblical.

Such a hero is a hero for a world in dire need of someone honest to believe in (which is understandable, if you think about who really CAUSED that war to begin with).

not getting into this too much sincce it sounds like ye haven't read the sequel (he's remembered not as a hero, but as a villian, the murderous xenocide who wiped out another race leaving no trace remaining 3000 years ago...), but, in premise, that kind of character can survive in conscious discussion as long as it gets tied to a living culture I think.  Something that maintains it.

Dracos-

There's almost perpetually a war every ten to thirty years, possibly more internationally.

That's an issue now, but it wasn't that way a couple thousand years ago. Society today is constantly bombarded with new and more interesting things (mostly due to the spread of information). Back in the past, there wasn't much to do when your day was just Wake Up, Raise Barn, Farm, Eat, Sleep. For less advanced cultures, history is everything. This is where celebrations come in. Every year, Americans celebrate Independence Day, or Memorial Day, even if they don't always know what it stands for.

I'm pretty sure you're off base here.  Every culture that I'm aware of is littered with tiny wars, skirmishes, etc that go on almost perpetually for literally hundreds of years tracing backwards, even into when you are talking about.  We aren't aware of them now because it's the most most people can do to be aware of a few large ones recently.  Yes, it's quite possible that the time between events has reduced (And our awareness of new ones is heightened), but the whole deal with these things isn't a new one.  Europe has literally hundreds of wars that it puts in the last thousand years or so, some lasting 20-40 years in a chunk.  Africa is infamous for its tribal warfare that reputably is thousands of years old and only recently being replaced with strife between its tribes and white south africans.   I could keep going easily enough.

I agree that more primitive cultures could have longer retention in direct consciousness, but I doubt it on a hundreds of years scale.  I think by then it moves very simply into stories that are told for the lessons they teach, the history they teach, and/or the religious value they teach rather than any heat upon the nature of events.

In simple terms: Heroes stay alive as long as the culture that celebrates him remembers him and continues to celebrate. If that means thousands of years, then so be it.

But then, that's why it's good to be a writer (/ historian...?).
You can make anything seem real...

Heh, my point really in referencing history is it does help keep it in scale.    Rather than rely on simple 'x00 time passed...' and then still talk about the events, it's better to use a minimal time that fits it to discourage the feeling that this world is heavily static.

Dracos

[Dracos]

A question: are we talking about wars between nations here, or wars between typical forces of Light and Darkness, one of which is hell-bent on erasing the other from existence?  I can see plain ol' fashioned wars growing murky with time, but if Satan punches a hole up through Hell in the middle of Rome, and Joe Pesci saves us by jamming a screwdriver in his neck, I could see that sticking in the public consciousness for some time.

Simple events* of epic proportions** stay with people.  Of course, that's moot if we're not talking simple events or epic proportions, in which case I would agree that heroes stepping out of a millenia-spanning time bubble and being hailed as heroes would be a tad askew.

*taken to mean, "highly visible bad guys do evil things, highly visible good guys stop them".

**taken to mean, "events that involve the fate of every living thing in the world, and often the very world itself, both conceptually and as a physical object".

Indeed.... and my thoughttrain scattered...all aboard...

Dracos
Distractable~

[Olvelsper]

Joe Pesci for savior.

[Dracos]

Joe Pesci has defeated my ranttrain with a screwdriver.

We will remember this for ages to come.

Dracos