RPing and feedback.

[Anastasia]

Inspired by a discussion I had with a few people on the mod board.

Getting feedback on RPing is a simple and basic function that comes in many forms. From a simple 'good job' to the more complex dissertations that come engage in, it's part of the process. So I have a few questions on the matter:

0. What do you think of feedback?

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still worth giving them feedback and comments?

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

[Halbarad]

0. What do you think of feedback?

Feedback is good and essential for anyone that wants to improve as a player or as a GM, in my opinion.

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

I tend to try to balance positive and negative feedback - hit the high and the low points. I'm not particularly diplomatic about doing so on either end, however - if I see something, I'm going to call it just the way I see it. In a case like this, among friends, I'd stay silent if the person in question wasn't interested in feedback, although I HAVE had to give it in cases where it's not always welcomed.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

Mmm. In an active game, first step for me would be to let the player know that there are issues that need to be discussed, but reassure them that they are still wanted in the game if that's a concern of theirs - it'd probably depend on who I was talking to, really. Again, though, I'd be blunt - not going to beat around the bush to address an issue. If it's something that needs to be addressed, it should be defined clearly and concisely.

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still work giving them feedback and comments?

In a case like that, feedback and comments should probably be limited to private conversation, to limit the dramabomb effect. Same rules apply, though - only if desired, and keep it clear and concise.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

Absolutely, for all that I've GMed all of once.

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

It really depends on the person involved. Feedback is going to be provided directed at an individual more often than not (for a particular player, or in the case of a game at large, primarily at the GM). Each person is going to react to feedback differently, and depending on how they do, it makes the determination whether feedback CAN be provided publically or whether to keep it private (I assume this is what you mean by alone or in groups).

[Iron Dragoon]

*Iddy's two cents:*

0. What do you think of feedback?
Friggin. Awesome. Everyone has holes and bad habits that could be constructively delt with, no exceptions. Everyone has things that could use shoring up. On the other hand, it has to be presented in an adult, well thought out, constructive, and friendly manner. We're all adults here (or reasonably close), and everyone *can* act with the maturity that comes along with that.

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?
Feedback, when it comes down to it, is your personal opinion on a person's actions and behavior. The best way is to be respectful, and above all, polite. While I fully advocate bluntness, there's is a *massive* difference between simple bluntness and disrespect. You can tell someone, 'STFU, you're wrong, listen to me,' or you can say, 'Hey, listen, I know you have specific things you want to do and directions you want the story to go, but you're comming off as really strong arm about it.' One is likely to be reacted to with pissing and moaning, and one is not. As for if it's wanted or not.. Well.. That's up to whoever is being subjected to it. They fully have the right to say 'I don't care what you think,' but they need to understand that if they do say that, then they lose all right to critique anyone else for any reason. Do unto others, people.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?
Helpfully. Don't just point out the bad. Point out what they're doing *right* as well. And don't just tell them they're all fucked up. Give suggestions on how to improve what they need help with, also. If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. How'd you feel if someone just walked up to you out of no where and told you that you were doing things all fucked up, and then walked away with offering to help you fix it? I'd be pretty pissed off, personally. Like I said before, respect and politeness are keys.

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still work giving them feedback and comments?
Mmm.. Again, that is based upon presentation, mostly. Start with things that are good, and off-set with bad. That way, it doesn't seem like you're flat out focusing on the negitive, which could be viewed as a personal attack. Again, offer suggestions, and be helpful. Some people can't take open critiquing, and that's fine. In those cases, I'd suggest talking to them via PM, tell them what you want to post, and why, then tell them you want to post it for other players to support or disagree with. After all, if everyone tells you the same thing, it's usually true to some degree. And for those who could be offended.. Well.. If ten people tell you that you're doing something wrong, while they might not be *exactly* right, they're probably saying something that you should at least pay attention to. If, in the end, a person does *not* want to be critiqued, then they have the right to *not* start a thread for it. I would suggest that critiques only be given to people who start posts *asking* for it. Anyone who doesn't ask for it, doesn't get it.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?
Never GMed, can't really say. I would 'think' I would, however. Diffrent people think diffrent ways. Someone might see a way to strengthen your style that you didn't see before. Some people might be more knowledgable about specific details than you, and would I would like to know that. That way, if I ever wanted to use those elements in a future game, I'd have a resource to make sure I had things accurately.

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?
Feedback should be done by individual posts on opinions. No one should agree, disagree, or argue any point in anyone else's post, unless it was *specifically* asked for. Feedback is, above all, a personal opinion. If you don't agree with someone's feedback, and you're not the subject of said feedback, you have no right to undermine what they're saying. It's their opinion, and it should be respected as such. The only one who has any right or reason to discuss someone's feedback is the subject of said feedback.

I'm just a dumb ass with a thick skull, but hey, that's what the few brain cells I got left squeezed out ;)

[Bjorn]

0. What do you think of feedback?

It killed my father.  Prepare to die!

Feedback covers a lot of territory.  I guess the short summary is: when feedback is about having more fun, it's a great thing.  When it's about anything else, well, it's a hobby.

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

So, for me, there are two major divisions of feedback -- during-game and post-game.

Post-game feedback I'll generally only give if the person asks for it, and how blunt I am depends on the sort of relationship I have with the other players.  I'm a blunt person, but astounding as it might sound, I'm not really that interested in making people cry.

Edit: Okay, Hal called me on this.  I love to make people cry, but I generally prefer it to be because of truly horrible things I've done, normally involving fire and/or knives, not just having made fun of their gaming ability.

During-game is usually the same -- if they ask for it, they can have it.  But sometimes you have to say something to someone, because the problem is making the game less fun for everyone else.  Again, who the person is determines how I'll approach them, but I'm much more likely to be discreet here -- being rude is just going to make for more problems.

Of course, during-game it's often possible to give feedback IC.  If someone's a wallflower, treat them like a wallflower in game -- try to get them involved.  If they're acting crazy, treat them like they're acting crazy, and see if you can't pull them back to normality that way.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

I've never really had to do this (see below, though), so to be honest: I don't know.

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still work giving them feedback and comments?

Honestly?  No.

Online gaming has one huge advantage over tabletop gaming: it's a lot easier to make sure you never game with a problem player again.  The odds of a dramabomber listening are next to zero.  Chalk it up to a learning experience, and avoiding gaming with them again.  You can't fix everyone, and it's not your job to try.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

I like getting comments.  Actively encouraging is a bit sticky -- it's kind of easy to fall over the line into "desperately and pathetically seeking validation."  I like to think that my players know me well enough to know that I'm far from perfect, and I'm thick-skinned enough to take it at face value when they tell me so. ;)

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

Both approaches have pros and cons.  Group feedback is a lot more dynamic, generally inclined to be genial, and can be lots of fun.  But when negative feedback has to be expressed, it can often (seem to) turn into ganging up on some poor soul.

During the game, I prefer to quietly and privately talk about any concerns I might have with the GM or the person in question.  Hauling things out in public during the game rarely makes things better, no matter how well-intentioned it may be.

[Anastasia]

0. What do you think of feedback?

It's lifeblood to a GM and incredibly useful to PCs. Even the best GM may not see mistakes or how a player really reacts to a certain element. Conversely, this applies to players as well. Good, effective and honest C/C is commendable.

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

I give it when I feel it's needed or I just have something to say. I'm blunt as far as it furthers what I need to get done; I learned that the hardest way possible. The sooner you talk to somenoe about mistakes, the easier they are to fix.

When feedback isn't wanted, things get dicier. This is more a fundamental problem and reason to really lynch a player if it gets that bad. That removes them from the flow of the game in my eyes, so I look dimly on that.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

Delicacy but being honest. I had this with another PC in a previous game I ran here. Nice guy, but honestly sucked most of the time. I wish I'd just been a lot more direct with him, beating 'round the bush did no one favors.

I'd rather do that than spare someone's feelings, since this only breeds more bad juju.

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still work giving them feedback and comments?

Oh balls. This is the hardest one of them all. Get to know the person and work it out. This is incredibly case by case, and even good players can go dramabombin' in the wrong circumstances. More than anything else, at least have good damage control in place.

Serial dramabombers tend not to last in games, at least.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

Fuck yes. Discussion is good, and being told you suck can be the nicest thing someone ever did for you.

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

However you're comfy with it. Group feedback is good for the bigger picture, and shouldn't be discarded.

[Carthrat]

0. What do you think of feedback?

Pretty good stuff. It's one thing to identify your own mistakes and virtues. You can't really state what they are with total certainty. God knows how many people you see with inferiority complexes that are totally undeserved.

Or superegos.

But either way, getting an outside perspective on what's hot, what's not, and what would be can't really be a bad thing, can it?

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

I think, as has been said, that straightforward, but respectful is the way to go. An adult person isn't going to blow up at you because you point out something he doens't like. He might not like it, sure, but it's probalby still a valid point. As for giving it if it's not wanted... well, no, I probably wouldn't for most people, though I might hint I have something to say. Of course, I might actually extol their good points while ignoring their flaws, unless they ask me to talk about it.

There should probably be balance in it; "I liked scene x, but not scene y. More scene-x like scenes." There's no point offering problems without hinting at solutions- that'll just frustrate people.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

With trepidation. In theory, I guess, you'd take them aside and talk to them calmly, but somewhat firmly, over what needs improving. Realistically...

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still work giving them feedback and comments?

The problem is, anyone can dramabomb, and sometimes you won't be able to tell. What's simple and clear-cut to one person can be amazingly heart-stopping to another, and even the small, insignificant things can trigger off alarms.

The trick here is to keep it private, remember that you were probably friends before you started gaming, and *not let it come between you*. People get annoyed at each other, it happens, but anyone willing to let a single explosion of anger ruin companionship.. well, you probably didn't want them in your game, anyway.

As an addendum, 'dramabombs' tend to be of the 'ticking' nature, and every passing second they go unresolved, they get more potential to get worse. If you see something like this in the works, it's better to deal with it ASAP.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

Yes, and yes, though possibly not enough. I too have an inferiority complex and desire positive feedback, but I also want genuine help with where to take a game to make it fun. 'course, not sounding needly is a challenge. >_.

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

Depends on the scale of feedback. Basically, if it's a personal issue, keep it that way- if it's something that could affect the whole group directly, bring it out into the open.

I agree with Iddy 100% on the argument thing, and want to reinforce it by stating that RPing is something of an emotional activity. It CAN be hard to define in words exactly what issues you're having, and it CAN sound pretty silly when you actually say it. The thing is, that doesn't make the problem you're actually having any less real. A degree of empathy and understanding are required, and working out what a problem actually is and dealing with it is going to go much better than saying, 'no, hrhr, you're wrong, I'm not causing you any distress because I *didn't* do action x' or something.

[Dracos]

Inspired by a discussion I had with a few people on the mod board.

Getting feedback on RPing is a simple and basic function that comes in many forms. From a simple 'good job' to the more complex dissertations that come engage in, it's part of the process. So I have a few questions on the matter:

0. What do you think of feedback?

Feedback is important on both ends and not just in the simplistic manner it seems to be getting relegated to here, but in the more fine tuning manner as well.  Sure, you run four adventures and the players liked them all...but why did they?  What did they like most?  Sure they can all say that they enjoyed it and the style, but there's lots of depth that helps fine tune a game to be at it's best and it can only happen really if the players are open to the gm, to each other, and the gm to players.

Iddy mentioned it's an emotional activity though, and he's right.  It's important to keep in mind that: A good game is one in which everyone is having fun.

This means that a good game is not dependant on the strictness of statistics, everyone writing shakespearean tales, or the players needing to spend 5 hours detailing out extra stuff.  Can these things all be part of having fun?  Yup, but I tend to think personally that if the focus on feedback is 'how can everyone have more enjoyment out of the experience' it tends to be more productive.

Bjorn's answer of IC feedback is also a favorite of mine.  Act crazy?  Yes, the players might be fine with it, but the noble you're sitting across from will get offended you're mooning him.  It's a more subtle and generally effective way to deal with small problems quickly.  It also does well with an OOC gentle poke.

1. Feedback - how do you give it? Why? Should you be blunt about it? Do you give it even when it's not wanted?

Depends on the time.  Almost always privately.  I might request it publicly and I'll  answer public requests publicly, but usually, it keeps it the calmest, reduces the chance of drama, and treats the person like a person to come to them privately and talk when there's a problem; Likewise, a person is more likely to speak frankly when they're alone.  Sure they might like this part more than that part, but they're way more likely to censor themselves on that if a player talks over them and says something different.  There's less drowning out, more attention given, and more the delivered sensation "I do actually care what you think.  You personally, not you the member of the group."

I think general praise is one of the few things that works publicly, but even that can lead to problems and works better privately.  Telling one or two players they're being awesome repeatedly in public can make the others feel bad, even if they're receiving zero negativity.  Telling them privately?  Just delivers the message and really, it's rarely player Cs business that you liked what Player A did with that scene.

I think hal said it best as far as organization goes.  Start with something nice always if you can.  If you can't, then there's probably a bigger problem than whatever you're trying to give feedback on.  It sets a better tone for a discussion and doesn't put a player instantly on the defensive.  I'm not a very subtle person, so I'm not saying not to be blunt, but even as simple as:
"I really enjoy your enthusiasm, especially in scene y.  Though I have a favor to ask?  Mind giving player b more leeway in some of certain scenes?  I want all players to get a chance to seize the camera."
versus:
"Please be quiet during certain scenes so that player b can talk."

Prolly not a great example, but the intent is really it's better to work with the players rather than to attack them.  RPing is a collaborative exercise and it's good to keep that in mind.

If feedback isn't wanted, that's important to note AND...shouldn't be given.  If it's disruptive to your game, then you have other steps to take, but if someone doesn't want feedback in a private game (which pretty much all SR ones are), that's entirely their perogative and they're not really implying that they want it at any point either.

2. How do you approach someone who's not such a great player?

Something done too often.  

First: Is it critical to the game?  Most of the time the answer is yes, but it's always important to ask.  Especially with short/one shot games... so what?  Whether GM side or player-side there's not a ton invested that's 'ruined' by it.

Second: Carefully.

Third: Carefully.  RPing is an emotional activity and there's not the helpful shield of physical ability to come into play usually.  Generally, approaching someone in this is almost universally linked with them leaving the game, whether from poor handling, being thrown out, or something else.  Be aware of this and aware that it tends to get personal easily, whether or not either person involved is prone to drama.

Fourth: Have quantifiable and recognizable ideas on how to help.  Going to someone and telling them they suck at a part and should improve is a lot less productive for keeping a game cohesive than having some things that they can do to get better.  Be willing to put out extra work on your side there too if you're going to go through the 'charade' of giving them decent feedback.  Think of it like fanfiction; it's a lot more helpful to give a few examples near sentences on how to more cleanly communicate an idea than it is to fling them a line telling them that: "Your sentence structure is bad."

Fifth: blather.  Or not, but I feel like I am in this response =D

3. How about someone that could dramabomb? Is it still worth giving them feedback and comments?

Bjorn and Rat I think covered this.  Everyone can dramabomb.  More importantly, it also can be very unrelated to what's going on in game.  I've had players sit out a few sessions because they were really stressed in real life and were turning their characters bitter and angry at the others.  Telling them 'hey you need to fix this' in such cases is less beneficial than asking them if they're having trouble with things.

In fact, in general?  I think it's better to ask whether someone is having any trouble before delivering any negative feedback as a rule.  More often than it being 'bad play' I find it's "Yeah, I get no sleep" or some similar mix.

4. As a GM, do you like getting comments back from your players and do youa ctively encourage them?

Strongly.  I'm used to, more than I'd like, passively responding players.  So i hunt them down.  Sure, it's a little bit of an ego boost (Reward for working well!) but it's more if you don't ask, you don't know.

5. Do you think feedback should be done alone, in groups or...?

Almost always alone.  To the GM side I do tend to bring in group feedback as well...but after asking individually and more to make sure my crystalization of how to continue to keep the game fun matches well.

As far as negative feedback goes...I think there's a world of difference between:
GM: Can you work on issue x.

and

GM: Work on issue x.
Player 1: Yeah, you suck at it.
Player 2: Topping that!
PLayer 3: In agreement!

The latter scenario is almost never necessary, but usually what happens if you ever have an actual reason to give negative feedback.  They often aren't intending to do so, and might not even be trying to top it, but it's how conversation tends to work.

I can't think of one instance I've heard where a whole group got together to 'intervene' with a player that didn't turn out pretty poorly.  

Notably, that's when there's a visible 'problem'.

I think group feedback works best for open stuff.  "Are there any concerns?" kind of thing.

Dracos
and now I have to run off... I'm good at this communicating thingamabob...really!