Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

And so the hatted one finally decides to try writing some fanfiction.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7252550/1/Under_Review

What would happen if Haruhi actually did pay a bit more attention to the members of her Brigade... say, in an annual review?

Three chapters up so far, feedback and comments are welcome~

I already commented, but -- you can also use the creative writing section for feedback before posting to ff.net. :D

Anyway; I really enjoyed it, sorry I can't offer much more constructive at the moment.

Looking forward to the next chapter, after Ten Desires settles down a bit. ;)

New chapter is up.

Re-reading this now to see if I can have slightly fresher eyes for it, but mostly remarking to let everyone else know ... I thought this was awesome, still.  :)

Sorry I don't have any further constructive criticism, yet.

Spoke too soon; caught this:

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMI blink at the sudden halt, then look down at her hand again - she was doing something with that pen, I guess. And I definitely don't have to guess now - she's got a huge combat knife in it now! Well, more on it than in it - she's just holding it on her open palm, which makes me feel a little better about it.

Repetition of 'now' in the second sentence; I think you can omit the first one.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMI take a deep breath and hold it for a few seconds before blowing it out and looking at Yuki. "So... uh." Sensing that I'm not going to get much of anywhere with this, I shake my head before continuing. "Why haven't you said anything before now? You know I set up the Brigade in the first place to find people like aliens! Why is this only coming out now?"

Nitpicky, but two sentences ending with 'now' again.  You could replace the first instance with 'this'?

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PM"I cannot provide information regarding Asahina Mikuru and Koizumi Itsuki at this time," is Yuki's answer. Dammit! I was this close to having the whole thing, too!

Just for flow, I'd suggest breaking Haruhi's reaction (starting at 'Dammit!') to another line.  It's not really dialog, but in some ways it acts like it.  It can attach to her actual dialog next if you like, but also works if it's separated out for emphasis.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMSurprisingly, that one seems to stump her. It takes her several seconds before she responds, "I am aware that there may be romantic overtones to your question; however, I am uncertain to what degree these are present. He is my friend; I wish to ensure his safety."

In retrospect, this is a good opportunity to show how Haruhi's learned to read Yuki.  Maybe a little more showing on how Haruhi can tell Yuki's stumped?

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMI feel a lot calmer at that admission; it... shouldn't really bother me if Kyon wants to date someone, but it does for some reason. I guess I think he'll miss out on more amazing things if he ends up getting distracted by romance with someone else.

Just going to comment (again), on how much that single last word makes that whole bit so cute.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMI kick open the door to the clubroom as usual on arriving; apparently she's either running late or I got Kyon moving faster than usual, since she's still just standing next to the costume rack.

Mikuru's introduced as 'she' instead of by name, here.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PMKyon and Koizumi have both filed into the room at this point; Koizumi's digging one of the board games off the shelf while Kyon flops down in his usual seat at the table. That's not going to stand, at least.

I should have mentioned this, but that last sentence feels like it might be missing a word.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PM"Not bad, I guess I haven't completely lost my touch," I reply, sounding satisfied. Koizumi settles back, looking strangely satisfied with the outcome given the fact that he's lost. "Hmmm, another game?"

I think that the first 'not bad' should be offset with either a semicolon or a period (not sure about that one).

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PM"I suppose that's no trouble," Koizumi replies easily. Good, then let's see how he handles this!

Going back to Haruhi's reply being in the same paragraph as Koizumi's dialog; it can be left as it is, but Haruhi's response could also be moved to be separate.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 16, 2011, 08:37:43 PM"Um... certainly, why not?" Koizumi says, sounding a bit uncertain.

Super nit-picky here; I'd suggest 'agrees' or the like instead of 'says', since he's evidently lacking in confidence (and it's a question).  Totally just my brain saying, 'you can't say something that ends in a question mark, can you?'

Okay. scanning through the rest, nothing else stuck out.

Hello Halbarad, I thought I'd take your invitation and drop by to give my thoughts on the latest installment.

Something I notice here that I didn't realize before is some unwillingness to use bare, untagged dialogue.  This is the sort of passage I'm talking about:

QuoteBe that as it may, though, I'm still not done with Mikuru, and I haven't got time to work this all out now. Her confession there does bring up one other thing.

"So, you can not only time travel, but you can take other people with you?" I ask to confirm.

"Ah... I have to get approval to time travel at all - with or without other people - but yes, I can," Mikuru admits.

"Then I want you to take me to another time so I can see this for myself!" I challenge her. Yuki was able to prove her abilities, after all, so Mikuru should be able to do the same!

"What- I, I, I can't do that!" Mikuru stammers.

"Get your authorization or whatever you need - I won't take no for an answer!" I stand up, hands on my hips.

In this part, it's clear Asahina is stammering just from the construction and that it's her speaking just from the surrounding sentences.  I do think that on occasion leaving dialogue untagged can improve the flow of the story, but I know not everyone would agree.  If that's how you feel too, I'll make no further mention of it.

On the "classified information" scene, I felt the structure of it was weakened by having Asahina explain the problem rather than, say, having Haruhi figure it out from context.  The audience already knows how it works, and full-on exposition in that case is...risky.  I guess that's the best word.  That said, I thought going back to deliver the completed movie was effective.  I'd never quite liked the idea that Haruhi finished it on her own with her powers, so that was a very good way to twist the interpretation of an event. 

The payoff of this chapter, though, is Haruhi apologizing to Asahina, and in that, I think you did well.  Haruhi reacts realistically to Asahina expressing her desires privately, knowing that she can't act on them.  That more than anything else resonates compared to Haruhi just reexamining past deeds on her own.

Credit has to go to Brian for the movie in this case; we were discussing busy-work for Kyon and he tossed the idea out - then it fit perfectly with the idea of Mikuru taking Haruhi on a time-traveling trip. Kudos to Mr. Randall, there.

As far as unmodified speech goes, you're right. I've been called out a couple of times on not providing enough framing description of the scene or what the characters are doing in long dialogue scenes (and boy does this chapter qualify), so I've been trying to find a better balance of that. Hasn't been working out quite the way I've intended, since I end up more with stuff like this. =\

As far as 'classified information' goes, the root of that comes from Mikuru's fear of Haruhi. Kyon she can let work it out on her own - she's confident that he'll be patient and thoughtful enough to pick up on what's going on in time. With Haruhi, she's more afraid that Haruhi will fixate on the fact that she's still hiding information and demand that she reveal what she's hiding, when she literally can't - leading to a cycle of Mikuru being stuck behind 'classified information' and a Haruhi who just gets more and more irritated at the fact that she can't get a straight answer. So to try to head that off before it even starts, she jumps straight to the explanation she never gave Kyon.

Whether it would be needed with this Haruhi? Eh, to some extent Mikuru's right, although Haruhi's not so stupid that she'd push it once she saw that Mikuru was clearly too terrified to be withholding info on purpose. At that point Mikuru was just a complete wreck emotionally, though, between the exposure and (yet again) vague orders from her 'superiors' - it's hard to spot in the story since we only have Haruhi's POV to go on, but she did actually receive instructions right in the middle of the confrontation.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 21, 2011, 09:11:23 PMAs far as unmodified speech goes, you're right. I've been called out a couple of times on not providing enough framing description of the scene or what the characters are doing in long dialogue scenes (and boy does this chapter qualify), so I've been trying to find a better balance of that. Hasn't been working out quite the way I've intended, since I end up more with stuff like this. =\

Hmm -- thinking about this....  One thing I'd meant to comment on earlier is that the forming storm dropped out of the description somewhere around midway.

Did the weather blow off, or are there good opportunities to bring in references to the weather during the awkward silences and so on during Mikuru's interrogation? Or the storm lessening, if that's when it's happening....

Even though I'll read the occasional Haruhi fic (usually the ones written by Bri or recommended by someone here), I'm always a little reluctant to write C&C for Haruhi fics since I can't make myself finish the novels and have never seen the anime.  But since you're just talking about writing styles, I'll risk a few questions.

* Why are you discussing the weather at all?  Even in normal conversation, let alone fiction, discussing the weather is something you do when you feel the social need to say something to someone but have no topic of actual worth.  Even using a storm as a metaphor for a bad mood or relationship-in-crisis is cliche these days.  I'm not saying that you should never discuss the weather in your fic, but I think you should answer the question to yourself.  e.g, if the answer is that it is an excuse to keep Kyon from using a commitment to the baseball club to avoid having to work on the movie, you could write in a fuller description of him looking out the window at the gently falling rain, a glance at the baseball diamond at the far right, then a sigh before walking towards the computer.

* Is the fic supposed to be a denouemont?  If so, yay.

Er, not to answer for Hal, but I thought it was pretty clear the weather's there because Haruhi's causing it.  It's just a side-effect of Haruhi's mood (and then her pondering on it was to lampshade her obliviousness to the fact it was her doing).

Hence my wondering why the weather wasn't mentioned more during that tense discussion with Mikuru.

Quote from: Brian on August 24, 2011, 02:15:33 AM
Er, not to answer for Hal, but I thought it was pretty clear the weather's there because Haruhi's causing it.  It's just a side-effect of Haruhi's mood (and then her pondering on it was to lampshade her obliviousness to the fact it was her doing).

Okay.  Then, since Haruhi's mood as gone through many fluctuations in the other four chapters, shouldn't the weather be following that too (and be described as such...or did that happen, and I was too dense to see it)?  Heck, take it further, and make it obvious to the reader (but not Haruhi) that the Brigade is regularly reading the weather to take cues on how to act to Haruhi, since they all know that she's an unknowing god - that takes it out of the realm of the overused weather-as-a-mood-metaphor, and turns it into part of the story.

...unless Haruhi-generated weather changes happens all the time in the cannon, in which case I'm probably just not getting it due to lack of familiarity with the particulars of the source material.

Kyon suspects that Haruhi is responsible for Summer dragging on as long as it did (beyond the Endless Eight), and that's part of why Winter was so short, but that's not backed up by anyone else.

Cannonwise, there isn't a lot to suggest she has much control over the weather.  The one time she does complain about the heat, it's an excuse to wear increasingly fanservicey outfits in front of Kyon.

QuoteCannonwise, there isn't a lot to suggest she has much control over the weather.  The one time she does complain about the heat, it's an excuse to wear increasingly fanservicey outfits in front of Kyon.

Other than the typhoon during Lone Island. IIRC Kyon does mention that it seems to come out of nowhere, and I doubt his family would be cool with him heading off to a remote island if there was a typhoon inbound.

QuoteOkay.  Then, since Haruhi's mood as gone through many fluctuations in the other four chapters, shouldn't the weather be following that too (and be described as such...or did that happen, and I was too dense to see it)?  Heck, take it further, and make it obvious to the reader (but not Haruhi) that the Brigade is regularly reading the weather to take cues on how to act to Haruhi, since they all know that she's an unknowing god - that takes it out of the realm of the overused weather-as-a-mood-metaphor, and turns it into part of the story.

It's not really an absolute thing; I recall it being a possible connection far more in the anime than in the novels (largely because they -need- to show the weather there in some respect to frame the scene). Since you're not an avid follower of the series I'll avoid going off into a list of examples and counterexamples, but there are a few to support the idea either way.

In this case, she's more noticing it because she's that starved for something else to occupy her attention - she doesn't want to talk to Kyon, her business with Sakanaka is too private to deal with in class breaks, and class itself (as always) is boring as hell. So there's not much to do but stare outside and watch a storm roll in. And then once she's noticed it, she keeps tabs on it.

As far as using it during the scene with Mikuru goes, it's mostly a PoV issue. Now that she's got Mikuru in front of her and can really focus on what's been eating at her all day, she just doesn't -care- about the weather anymore. It'd be easy to slip in if I was narrating in third person, but Haruhi's the storyteller here, and she doesn't care at this point.

It'll get a brief mention in the opening of the next chapter, though, for much the same reason as it came up in the first place.

Quote from: Halbarad on August 24, 2011, 08:33:22 AMOther than the typhoon during Lone Island. IIRC Kyon does mention that it seems to come out of nowhere, and I doubt his family would be cool with him heading off to a remote island if there was a typhoon inbound.

Ooh, that's a good point.

Come to think of it, it snowed during the snow mountain mystery exactly when Koizumi had hoped it would (which he mentioned to Haruhi a few times).

Quote from: Halbarad on August 24, 2011, 08:33:22 AM
In this case, she's more noticing it because she's that starved for something else to occupy her attention - she doesn't want to talk to Kyon, her business with Sakanaka is too private to deal with in class breaks, and class itself (as always) is boring as hell. So there's not much to do but stare outside and watch a storm roll in. And then once she's noticed it, she keeps tabs on it.

Okay.  Well, if it's a core Haruhi concept (like changing gender with water is a Ranma concept, or hot women being attracted to wusses is a Tenchi concept), then what you have makes sense.

QuoteIt'd be easy to slip in if I was narrating in third person, but Haruhi's the storyteller here, and she doesn't care at this point.

I get the POV difficulties.  What I didn't get is, in a storytelling sense, what you want to accomplish by talking about the weather in the first place, since almost any trivial topic would get you the same effect without the literary baggage ("It was a typical, sunny, day in Nerima"; "It was a dark and stormy night").  Again, if this is a Haruhi concept, then my misgivings are misplaced, and you're likely okay, since you don't need to justify concepts - they're what the story is built upon.

Since Hal forgot to mention it, there's another chapter out.

I quite enjoy this take on Haruhi.

Quote from: Brian on September 01, 2011, 01:06:21 PM
Since Hal forgot to mention it, there's another chapter out.

I quite enjoy this take on Haruhi.

I am bad about such things, it is true.

QuoteI spend most of the train trip home trying not too think about too much of anything - there's just too much to process right now, and too many people around to do it. It's a slow trip home; the rain let up while I was talking with Mikuru, but the clouds are still there and everything's still wet.

The repetition of still seems like it weakens both uses of the word.

QuoteI can't help but snort at that. 'Oh sure, Mom, I just found out that I've been hanging out with an alien and a time traveler for the last year and that they've both been keeping it secret from me for all that time.' Yeah, that's really something I expect you to take seriously.

Haruhi's bitterness I understand, but it feels a bit out of place.  I don't know why, though.

QuoteI do at least manage to get some sleep, but it's uneasy at best, full of nightmares - glowing giants locked in mortal combat with one another in a dead, grey world. I don't know where they come from, but I've had dreams like this on and off for years - usually when I'm angry or upset in some way.

Usually, I feel better after one of those dreams; watching the giants tear through the world around them, breaking down the old and worn-out to make way for the new and exciting - it's normally really invigorating!

Today, though, I feel... uneasy, but settled in a way - even though that doesn't really make sense.

This raises an interesting question:  if she's had these nightmares a lot and recognizes the giants, then shouldn't she have recognized them when she took Kyon into closed space with her at the end of Melancholy?

Quote"I... sure," he says, obviously confused.

I tend to be cautious about saying that anything's obvious or apparent.  I think the point can be made directly, keeping the emphasis on Kyon's confusion and not that it's obvious.

Meh, maybe that doesn't matter as much as I think.

Quote"We, um, did get more information yesterday," she offers, looking at me a bit worriedly. "Nanaka-chan's club isn't meeting this week - ah, that's Onoki Nanaka, she's in the tea ceremony club.

Inconsistency in honorifics.  Asahina's been basically "Mikuru" 99% of the time, but here "-chan" is used.

Quote"Thanks for understanding." I give her a small smile myself. "Anyway, I'll leave you to your lunch - I'm not particularly hungry today, and... well. I doubt I'd be very good company at the moment."

I stand and give her a quick bow to excuse myself. "Thanks again for your help!"

I know I've done this before, breaking what one person says or does into multiple paragraphs because it seems like some pause is appropriate, but I'm not sure that's the case here.

Quote"All right, all right, I'll be there," he says, trying to placate me.

It's apparent that he's placating her, though.

Quote"Onoki-san, right?" I jump in before Sakanaka can reply. "I really appreciate the help - but we don't really have time to talk. Can you show us where you last saw Kyon and Koizumi?"

Okay, so I think I get what you're doing--generally you avoid honorifics in narrative but use them in dialogue.  Even so, that would be Koizumi-kun here, unless I've misunderstood your general method.


So, general remarks:  I like Haruhi's thought process, how she takes herself to task for what she's done and resolves to confront Kyon with her feelings.  She recognizes when she's being unfair and works to correct that.  At the risk of stating the obvious, though, it's all going to ride on Koizumi--on how he knows to abduct Kyon at this moment and why.

That's probably something you know, though, so we can just see how the next installment plays out.

QuoteHaruhi's bitterness I understand, but it feels a bit out of place.  I don't know why, though.

Hands up all in the room that got along well with their parents at 17. Haruhi's probably worse than average, too, given her history of getting into trouble.

QuoteThis raises an interesting question:  if she's had these nightmares a lot and recognizes the giants, then shouldn't she have recognized them when she took Kyon into closed space with her at the end of Melancholy?

Are you certain she didn't?

QuoteHonorifics stuff

For the most part, I don't use honorifics for Haruhi in narrative, no. The exceptions you'll see are teachers, who she doesn't really have any other reference for anyway.

As for the inconsistency in usage, it's mainly for Haruhi herself. She's not particularly polite, so her usage of honorifics will tend to be all over the place - in the latter case you quote, she's specifically being rude and jumping in ahead of Sakanaka, plus she's in a hurry. She's also not particularly inclined to be polite about Koizumi in general right now, as she's definitely on the far side of enraged.

Koizumi's part will be addressed in the next chapter, although not by him directly - Kyon will be explaining for him, as he's understandably going to be a bit rattled after being sucker-punched by 'God'. There are other factors going on with him that have been hinted at a bit earlier in the story, too, but all of that will come out shortly.

Chapter 7 is up.

There'll be a short epilogue to tie up a few loose ends, but this is pretty much the final chapter. Hope folks have enjoyed!

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 09:37:24 AMHope folks have enjoyed!

And how much...

I guess that I've already mentioned it but it started inconspicuously enough that I didn't even pay much attention to it until around the time chapter three was up. After that every chapter has managed to top all the previous ones and this last one ... oh my, this last one. When I had finished reading it I realized that I was grinning like an idiot and just couldn't stop. Perfection. I'm thankful for the chance of reading it, and deeply humbled in my hope to someday reach that level of writing.

To agree with sarsaparilla, and echo a phrase my old English teacher used way too much: it's beautiful.

My one quibble with the way it comes together as a whole is that it didn't feel like a final chapter, because your big payoff ends with Kyon and Haruhi arranging a date, while leaving the whole question of Haruhi's powers sort of hanging in midair. Like a piece of music that cuts off abruptly with a main theme unresolved.

I think "Haruhi has more concern for petty (well, actually pretty important) Brigade member stuff than exploring the universe with or without her powers" is going to end up being my pet peeve, since it's taking away the one positive trait she had right from the very start and didn't need to develop. It's especially egregious when she's made aware of things. It can certainly be done - in fact, my more recent Unusual Suspects / Two Hypotheses snippet actually ends up using it as the apparent justification for Haruhi's complete obliviousness, though I'm still dissatisfied with how that works right now - but I don't like it that a number of fics I've read recently have sort of shoved this idea at me and expected me to take it for granted. I first noticed it and got annoyed by it in New Game Plus (now Brian claims there was a reason for it that I guess he didn't do a good enough job of hinting at), but that was crack and this is serious. sars' Kyonko fic actually ended up using the fact that Haruki was un-curious to increase the squick level, and so that sealed the notion for me that I should be annoyed by this stuff.

If I redid this chapter, I'd have Kyon and Haruhi arrive at something more like the theme that's implicit in sars' outline for an Italy fic: they agree that they certainly want to date, but the question of their romance can't be satisfactorily resolved unless they also resolve the question of Haruhi's powers. They could just acknowledge that and the fic would end on a bit of a stronger note IMHO.

I was honestly expecting you to do that  right up until my eyes hit the bottom of the screen. Then I thought: oh, you're going to address it in the next chapter. Then you said there is no next chapter.

I guess I'll wait and see what the epilogue looks like.

I remember seeing a couple of nasty typos, but sadly I'm too busy to do a full C&C.

I think I need to disappear from this forum for a few days to let some more ideas stew in my head in peace and quiet.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 09:37:24 AMChapter 7 is up.

There'll be a short epilogue to tie up a few loose ends, but this is pretty much the final chapter. Hope folks have enjoyed!

I'll have to look through it to see if anything is different or pops out at me, but like I said before, I think it's pretty awesome. :p

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 21, 2011, 10:08:00 AMMy one quibble with the way it comes together as a whole is that it didn't feel like a final chapter, because your big payoff ends with Kyon and Haruhi arranging a date, while leaving the whole question of Haruhi's powers sort of hanging in midair. Like a piece of music that cuts off abruptly with a main theme unresolved.

Hmm ... considering Haruhi's powers were never really the focus of this story until that point, I don't actually see that as a major issue.  It's not the responsibility of every fanfic to close up every hanging plot-thread (I'm looking at you, Ranma 1/2 Pair The Spares syndrome!).

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 21, 2011, 10:08:00 AMI think "Haruhi has more concern for petty (well, actually pretty important) Brigade member stuff than exploring the universe with or without her powers" is going to end up being my pet peeve, since it's taking away the one positive trait she had right from the very start and didn't need to develop. It's especially egregious when she's made aware of things. It can certainly be done - in fact, my more recent Unusual Suspects / Two Hypotheses snippet actually ends up using it as the apparent justification for Haruhi's complete obliviousness, though I'm still dissatisfied with how that works right now - but I don't like it that a number of fics I've read recently have sort of shoved this idea at me and expected me to take it for granted. I first noticed it and got annoyed by it in New Game Plus (now Brian claims there was a reason for it that I guess he didn't do a good enough job of hinting at), but that was crack and this is serious. sars' Kyonko fic actually ended up using the fact that Haruki was un-curious to increase the squick level, and so that sealed the notion for me that I should be annoyed by this stuff.

I think you're jumping the gun a little by inferring that conclusion based on the contents of this fic.  I got the sense instead that Haruhi has just gone through some major revelations, and while she believes Kyon, that's a lot to deal with -- there's something in front of her she can get a handle on right then and there, and it was what she was focused on for the entire story until that point.  Really, I took it as Haruhi accepting what Kyon said and just deferring it because she's tackling bigger issues.

Well, I guess in retrospect, she did wonder what she herself was when the reviews began.  However, the story as I took it was about Haruhi uncovering the truth of the others (and Kyon) on her own; discovering her powers was part of the payoff, not the focus of the tale.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 21, 2011, 10:08:00 AMIf I redid this chapter, I'd have Kyon and Haruhi arrive at something more like the theme that's implicit in sars' outline for an Italy fic: they agree that they certainly want to date, but the question of their romance can't be satisfactorily resolved unless they also resolve the question of Haruhi's powers. They could just acknowledge that and the fic would end on a bit of a stronger note IMHO.

...I hadn't read Sarsaparilla's new fic yet.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 11:43:26 AM
Hmm ... considering Haruhi's powers were never really the focus of this story until that point, I don't actually see that as a major issue.  It's not the responsibility of every fanfic to close up every hanging plot-thread (I'm looking at you, Ranma 1/2 Pair The Spares syndrome!).

That's... really the case here. My focus wasn't on the supernatural powers and abilities of the brigade, it was more on Haruhi learning more about who the members of her brigade really -are-, including herself. This is more about learning about who they are as people than learning what kind of fantastic things they can do, although there's certainly an element of the latter.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 11:43:26 AM

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 21, 2011, 10:08:00 AMI think "Haruhi has more concern for petty (well, actually pretty important) Brigade member stuff than exploring the universe with or without her powers" is going to end up being my pet peeve, since it's taking away the one positive trait she had right from the very start and didn't need to develop. It's especially egregious when she's made aware of things. It can certainly be done - in fact, my more recent Unusual Suspects / Two Hypotheses snippet actually ends up using it as the apparent justification for Haruhi's complete obliviousness, though I'm still dissatisfied with how that works right now - but I don't like it that a number of fics I've read recently have sort of shoved this idea at me and expected me to take it for granted. I first noticed it and got annoyed by it in New Game Plus (now Brian claims there was a reason for it that I guess he didn't do a good enough job of hinting at), but that was crack and this is serious. sars' Kyonko fic actually ended up using the fact that Haruki was un-curious to increase the squick level, and so that sealed the notion for me that I should be annoyed by this stuff.

I think you're jumping the gun a little by inferring that conclusion based on the contents of this fic.  I got the sense instead that Haruhi has just gone through some major revelations, and while she believes Kyon, that's a lot to deal with -- there's something in front of her she can get a handle on right then and there, and it was what she was focused on for the entire story until that point.  Really, I took it as Haruhi accepting what Kyon said and just deferring it because she's tackling bigger issues.

Well, I guess in retrospect, she did wonder what she herself was when the reviews began.  However, the story as I took it was about Haruhi uncovering the truth of the others (and Kyon) on her own; discovering her powers was part of the payoff, not the focus of the tale.

That's... kind of the point here. We already know that Haruhi is obsessed with the idea of non-normal humans (or has been; over the course of the novels that drive dies back significantly); what's the point of hammering in a point that the reader should already be familiar with? A lot of Haruhi's growth in the novels involves her discovering the fact that regular people can be interesting too; witness her friendship with Sakanaka as an example of that. This is just extending that into the relationships she's had around her in the Brigade and actually taking a hard look at what's she's taken for granted up until now.

Okay, not to leave my snarky response hanging until next Sunday or whatever, I guess that mine is very much a dissenting opinion.

I knew about Haruhi's curiosity of the unknown, and I get and seriously respect the fact that these characters have put off dealing with it until later, in favour of solving the actual human dimensions of their situation. But it doesn't feel like they've even paused to acknowledge that there is a huge elephant in the room that they're putting off. It's like "hello? elephant? aren't you going to at least put it on your Someday/Maybe list next to 'finally clean out the attic'?"

It's just that I keep running into fics - yours included - that feel to me like there's this huge tag that instructs me to stop and

{INSERT OBVIOUS, OFFSCREEN ACTUAL REACTION BY HARUHI TO FINDING OUT X, Y, Z}

appearing at least once in the story.

Personal opinion is still that there's quite a gap from completely failing to incorporate a character trait that, yes, is completely irrelevant to the point of your story; and to 'hammering it in'.

It's still an awesome story and everything *before* that point raised absolutely no weird questions.

Quote
He doubletakes at that. "I- wait, you would have wanted me to? You seemed pretty clear with your stance on romance!"

Touch.

Touche (which refers to scoring a hit in fencing, and by analogy, a scoring a hit in one's argument).

And complete!

Yep, still liked it; nothing much to say here that I haven't already told you. :)

Read this a few days ago. I liked it on the whole, about an 8/10 or so? My only complaint is about her powers. For being such a big deal in series, the actual use and control of them take a backseat to everything else. It's a bit jarring; at the same time, I think I'm also in a mood for a good fic that focuses on them. This may not be a flaw as much as just my mood when I read it.

Quote from: Anastasia on November 07, 2011, 02:50:25 AM
Read this a few days ago. I liked it on the whole, about an 8/10 or so? My only complaint is about her powers. For being such a big deal in series, the actual use and control of them take a backseat to everything else. It's a bit jarring; at the same time, I think I'm also in a mood for a good fic that focuses on them. This may not be a flaw as much as just my mood when I read it.

Part of that is due to the time setting. I know you haven't read the novels, but later in them Haruhi's use of her powers drops back to almost nothing - maybe some tweaking of probability, but not a lot more than that.

I must say that I had been following this story with ever increasing anticipation, but then suddenly the epilogue made me feel confused and anxious. To me, Haruhi's thoughts about Kyon's and Mikuru's relationship felt just as OOC -- and disturbing -- as if Kyon had started to think that now that he's dating Haruhi he should share her with Koizumi, too. Besides that it goes against everything established in the canon, it feels just wrong on so many levels. I don't know which makes me more anxious, the way it is presented in the story, or that I seem to be the only one bothered by it.

So, I'm feeling confused and depressed. Is there something fundamental that I have missed?

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 08:13:47 AM
I must say that I had been following this story with ever increasing anticipation, but then suddenly the epilogue made me feel confused and anxious. To me, Haruhi's thoughts about Kyon's and Mikuru's relationship felt just as OOC -- and disturbing -- as if Kyon had started to think that now that he's dating Haruhi he should share her with Koizumi, too. Besides that it goes against everything established in the canon, it feels just wrong on so many levels. I don't know which makes me more anxious, the way it is presented in the story, or that I seem to be the only one bothered by it.

So, I'm feeling confused and depressed. Is there something fundamental that I have missed?

It's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

She likes Kyon, Kyon likes her. She knows Mikuru likes Kyon as well, and she's not so dense as to miss that Kyon at least likes Mikuru to some extent as well - and she likes Mikuru herself, at some level (granted, she doesn't -know- Mikuru all that well, yet, so it's likely just a physical attraction at this point). She's not 100% sold on the idea yet herself, but she figures she can at least look into it and see whether she thinks it'll be possible.

The difference between this and the Koizumi setup you mentioned is that Haruhi's never shown even the slightest interest in Koizumi in that sense, and there certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of romantic interest between either of the two guys (unless you're looking at Koizumi through fujoshi goggles, possibly).

Quote from: Halbarad on November 07, 2011, 08:27:03 AM
It's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

Is this supposed to be a serious interpretation of Haruhi's character? I thought so before the epilogue, but just can't take it that way any more.

Quote from: Halbarad on November 07, 2011, 08:27:03 AMThe difference between this and the Koizumi setup you mentioned is that Haruhi's never shown even the slightest interest in Koizumi in that sense, and there certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of romantic interest between either of the two guys (unless you're looking at Koizumi through fujoshi goggles, possibly).

Missing the point here. If needed, I think that I could certainly write a fic to the effect, but I thought that just mentioning the idea would convey how wrong and disturbing I find the idea. The canon Haruhi is not a happy sharer, because if she was then Koizumi would get some, too. And yes, I'd find that disturbing as well.

So, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

I'm not trying to argue but to understand, and I'm still failing.

Edit: to clarify -- my question is completely serious and asked in good faith. I have certain ... issues, which dictates that whenever I disagree with somebody else over character interpretation, I must always question my own interpretation first, and the possibility that I have gotten everything so fundamentally wrong really makes me feel bad.

@Halbarad: Personally, I like the way your epilogue handles Haruhi's powers. Yeah, without that epilogue the fic was definitely incomplete (even given its goal of just being a character exploration); with it, the user-unfriendly nature of Haruhi's powers even fits the character development in the fic thematically to some extent. I basically saw the epilogue being posted, read it, and thought "oh! excellent job!"

Yeah, so I liked that part.

(Although it does raise the question of whether Haruhi's powers in your Touhou crossover will be similarly difficult to master.)

As for sarsaparilla being weirded out by the notion of Haruhi sharing with Mikuru...

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 08:51:16 AM
So, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

I'm not trying to argue but to understand, and I'm still failing.

EDIT/NOTE: too late to delete this, but adding spoiler tags for the things relating to K:BDH, together with a note for people who happen on the post that Brian, the actual author, considers the summary inside these tags an egregious misrepresentation (see below). You should probably consider his opinion far more valid than my own.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 07, 2011, 09:27:27 AM
Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Been meaning to, but postponed because of the sheer size of the thing but after what you just told me....

...

Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 09:40:01 AM
Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

Hmm, and I'd have thought "Beware the unsubtle harem plot!" in the fic description would have been ample warning. I'm trying to figure out if I've maybe overstated the issue...

*counts size of Kyon's harem on fingers*



So that's four or five five or six girls, depending on whether you count Kuyou. No, I think "O_o dear god" just about describes it.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 07, 2011, 10:03:06 AM
Hmm, and I'd have thought "Beware the unsubtle harem plot!" in the fic description would have been ample warning.

I didn't really understand what that entailed ... and it wasn't even the only thing in your description that gave me temporary breathing difficulties. Actually reading it then ... would turn me into a hysterically crying, screaming mess, and I must avoid that.

Anyway, I forgot to thank you for your contribution. I feel much better now that I can see the context. For a while I was seriously suspecting that I'm getting delusional.

Edit: One final thought. Maybe it's so that in order to write good fan fiction one must be able to make a solid connection between the characters and different aspects of one's own personality. While the characters essentially becoming a part of oneself is a strength, it is also a weakness, as other fiction that present the characters in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with one's own interpretation passes all defense mechanisms through that connection and essentially causes an internal cognitive dissonance and a conflict in one's self-image.

I just realized that after reading this fic my mind got disconnected from my internal representations of Haruhi and Kyon, and it took me a conscious effort to re-establish that connection. I care too much. >_>

Edit: One final final thought. It wasn't my intention to hijack this thread. If I have inconvenienced or irritated somebody, I would like to apologize.

Honestly, the point here is a shaky one, and I'm not completely satisfied with the results (in terms of Haruhi being IC) myself either. In complete honesty, if this Haruhi tried to run with the idea, the number of resultant disasters would not be small - it could work out, but rocky doesn't begin to describe the difficulty in getting such an arrangement going here.

She's mostly grasping at ideas for trying to make things up to Mikuru, and since she doesn't have much else to go on, the idea of a multiple-party relationship is on the table. From her perspective, she's less worried about Kyon now that she's got a definite confession from him, and sees this more as a way of getting Mikuru as a 'bonus' of sorts - she hasn't really thought the idea through that much and doesn't have a clue what kind of difficulties they're likely to run into in trying to pull it off.

I'm debating whether or not to edit the point out entirely, since I'm not sure it adds much and (as seen) it does throw things off quite a bit.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 08:51:16 AM

Quote from: Halbarad on November 07, 2011, 08:27:03 AMIt's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

Is this supposed to be a serious interpretation of Haruhi's character? I thought so before the epilogue, but just can't take it that way any more.

Conversely, I find it entirely plausible.  Haruhi is selfish, yes--  At the time of Sigh, which is around eight months before this fic is set.  She becomes more tolerant and understanding as time goes on.  Sure, she seems to emphasises her own primacy (Valentines day), but I also see that (like Hal says) she likes Mikuru.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 08:51:16 AMSo, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

[...]

Edit: to clarify -- my question is completely serious and asked in good faith. I have certain ... issues, which dictates that whenever I disagree with somebody else over character interpretation, I must always question my own interpretation first, and the possibility that I have gotten everything so fundamentally wrong really makes me feel bad.

I don't have any problems with seeing Haruhi in such a relationship -- though, in my mind, Haruhi would expect to be at the center of it.  It felt like something that Haruhi would actually do.

Admittedly, as things are presented here, I don't actually get the impression that they end in some Haruhi/Kyon/Mikuru matchup; it feels more like Haruhi and Kyon are going to get together, and Haruhi doesn't want to force the issue with her powers, so is willing to let Haruhi and Mikuru be together without forcing the issue.  In my mind, I would see Mikuru maybe dating Kyon for a while and then eventually moving on to be just a close friend to both.

Then again, I don't see things the same way as a lot of other people.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 07, 2011, 09:27:27 AM@sarsaparilla: Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero. The whole idea that Haruhi takes the initiative to begin sharing Kyon (here with Mikuru; in K:BDH with practically any even-slightly-eligible-girl associated with the brigade) seems to originate straight from there.

...could you, maybe, just a bit, tone down the invective there, Arakawa?  I don't really think that there's as much of a parallel as you're suggesting.  This is kind of depressing, and you also misrepresent some things in that summary (and what follows).

I guess I shouldn't be too upset, it's not like that'll probably influence anyone who hasn't read it yet.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 09:40:01 AM

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 07, 2011, 09:27:27 AMHmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Been meaning to, but postponed because of the sheer size of the thing but after what you just told me....

...

Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

...Arakawa....  I just don't even....  Spoilers for people who haven't read it aside--  Can we restrain the messages about how much what I write sucks to my own threads, instead of dragging it out into everywhere else?  Please?

It's becoming clearer and clearer you really don't like me (though I honestly don't know why).  Since it's not going to be curbed, can I just ask you to focus?

*sigh*

For what it's worth, Sarsaparilla, I did not expect you to ever read it, if you'd been putting it off this long -- and my further expectation was you would dismiss it after 4-5 chapters as not being intellectually engaging.  The fic is not 'Haruhi brainwashes herself into a haremette'.  I won't bother defending it or saying what it actually is at this point (since you won't ever read it) -- just -- please know that it's _not that_, and I wouldn't write such a thing. -_-

Edit: Arakawa, you can say whatever you like -- but we have a whole review forum for you to badmouth what I write; I kind of didn't like the "and you should REALLY be squicked by (misrepresentation)" thing showing up in commentary on another fic.  Maybe that's something you do subconsciously, like labeling that horrible Riddle of Kyon character 'Downfall!Kyon', to somehow attach a character I despised to something I wrote....

Depresses the hell out of me.

Ack, I did it again. Too late, I know, but I'm sorry. ;_;

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 07, 2011, 11:59:51 AMAck, I did it again. Too late, I know, but I'm sorry. ;_;

Absolutely not the case -- this was (and yet again) Arakawa.

Quote from: Brian on November 07, 2011, 12:00:43 PM
Absolutely not the case -- this was (and yet again) Arakawa.

Sigh... I think the term 'insensitive' fits me to a tee. Seeing that I'm consistently unable to predict how the words I write will be perceived on the other end.

I'll have to think carefully about what my problem is. For now, I've put the offending passage in spoiler tags, along with a warning that -- I'll repeat this -- Brian's opinion on his own fic is probably more valid than the one I seem to have conveyed.

Okay, so first to identify the misconception. What I should have written was something like:

Quote from: what I wish I'd had the brain cells to write
Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Spoiler: ShowHide

That fic also has a scenario where Haruhi takes the initiative in sharing Kyon with other girls in the Brigade. {Note: omit details about how this is accomplished -- having read those parts of the fic a long while ago, trying to explain them here is just shooting myself in the foot.} I think the problem is that, whereas K:BDH gradually developed  the in-story justification for such an arrangement, here the basic idea sort of appears out of nowhere in the epilogue. I can see how -- especially given the earlier strong focus in 'Under Review' on Kyon and Haruhi's romance -- suddenly throwing the notion of including Mikuru in the relationship might produce whiplash.

I'm... not sure how much better that would have been, but it's my best shot at communicating what seems to me a legitimate thought ('Under Review' just randomly threw a plot element at us which K:BDH took great care to establish gradually) and if it's not good enough then I'm severely worried about my inability to discuss things civilly.

What I actually wrote seems to have come across as "Hal's fic has Harem Factor, and K:BDH has (Harem Factor)^2 + self-brainwashing, therefore avoid". (Thinking that sarsaparilla must have -- based on her strongly conflicted reaction to Hal's epilogue -- a personal bias against seeing characters in a harem scenario, I only realized that it might be just a result of how I presented K:BDH after Brian's response.) So having assumed that K:BDH is a universally well-regarded fic, I took insufficient care not to end up ragging on it by proxy :-(

Moreover, I mentioned (spoiled) the details of how the fic developed the situation up to that point, which I have most likely misinterpreted / projected / completely misremembered, gave them out of context (which only highlights the fact that to avoid squick factor and justify such an unusual arrangement, they have been built up to gradually in the actual fic, over many thousands of words). Thus I've objectively poisoned the atmosphere by turning sarsaparilla off a fic (widely considered a seminal work in Haruhi fanfiction) which she would have otherwise read and formed her own opinion on...

I'm honestly unsure how to deal with what I've wrought.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 07, 2011, 05:46:31 PM
I'm honestly unsure how to deal with what I've wrought.

My suggestion: take a break, clear your head. It usually helps for me, anyway.