[Haruhi] Under Review

[Halbarad]

I must say that I had been following this story with ever increasing anticipation, but then suddenly the epilogue made me feel confused and anxious. To me, Haruhi's thoughts about Kyon's and Mikuru's relationship felt just as OOC -- and disturbing -- as if Kyon had started to think that now that he's dating Haruhi he should share her with Koizumi, too. Besides that it goes against everything established in the canon, it feels just wrong on so many levels. I don't know which makes me more anxious, the way it is presented in the story, or that I seem to be the only one bothered by it.

So, I'm feeling confused and depressed. Is there something fundamental that I have missed?

It's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

She likes Kyon, Kyon likes her. She knows Mikuru likes Kyon as well, and she's not so dense as to miss that Kyon at least likes Mikuru to some extent as well - and she likes Mikuru herself, at some level (granted, she doesn't -know- Mikuru all that well, yet, so it's likely just a physical attraction at this point). She's not 100% sold on the idea yet herself, but she figures she can at least look into it and see whether she thinks it'll be possible.

The difference between this and the Koizumi setup you mentioned is that Haruhi's never shown even the slightest interest in Koizumi in that sense, and there certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of romantic interest between either of the two guys (unless you're looking at Koizumi through fujoshi goggles, possibly).

[sarsaparilla]

It's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

Is this supposed to be a serious interpretation of Haruhi's character? I thought so before the epilogue, but just can't take it that way any more.

The difference between this and the Koizumi setup you mentioned is that Haruhi's never shown even the slightest interest in Koizumi in that sense, and there certainly doesn't seem to be any kind of romantic interest between either of the two guys (unless you're looking at Koizumi through fujoshi goggles, possibly).

Missing the point here. If needed, I think that I could certainly write a fic to the effect, but I thought that just mentioning the idea would convey how wrong and disturbing I find the idea. The canon Haruhi is not a happy sharer, because if she was then Koizumi would get some, too. And yes, I'd find that disturbing as well.

So, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

I'm not trying to argue but to understand, and I'm still failing.

Edit: to clarify -- my question is completely serious and asked in good faith. I have certain ... issues, which dictates that whenever I disagree with somebody else over character interpretation, I must always question my own interpretation first, and the possibility that I have gotten everything so fundamentally wrong really makes me feel bad.

[Arakawa]

@Halbarad: Personally, I like the way your epilogue handles Haruhi's powers. Yeah, without that epilogue the fic was definitely incomplete (even given its goal of just being a character exploration); with it, the user-unfriendly nature of Haruhi's powers even fits the character development in the fic thematically to some extent. I basically saw the epilogue being posted, read it, and thought "oh! excellent job!"

Yeah, so I liked that part.

(Although it does raise the question of whether Haruhi's powers in your Touhou crossover will be similarly difficult to master.)

As for sarsaparilla being weirded out by the notion of Haruhi sharing with Mikuru...

So, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

I'm not trying to argue but to understand, and I'm still failing.

EDIT/NOTE: too late to delete this, but adding spoiler tags for the things relating to K:BDH, together with a note for people who happen on the post that Brian, the actual author, considers the summary inside these tags an egregious misrepresentation (see below). You should probably consider his opinion far more valid than my own.

Spoiler: ShowHide

@sarsaparilla: Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero. The whole idea that Haruhi takes the initiative to begin sharing Kyon (here with Mikuru; in K:BDH with practically any even-slightly-eligible-girl associated with the brigade) seems to originate straight from there.

Note that in K:BDH, it was the indirect result of Haruhi rewriting her own personality to "make herself more open-minded" and avoid conflict that would tear the brigade apart, plus the result of a trip to see one of Kyon's relatives (who turned out to be maintaining a similar harem, giving Haruhi the idea to make Kyon do something similar). So even if ludicrous by the standards of a character exploration, it was at least justified by the internal logic of the fic. And we were given ample warning in the fic description, so those who feel squicked by the notion of an (absolutely huge!! O_o dear God) harem centering on Kyon could steer clear.

In 'Under Review'... yeah, it sort of came out of nowhere in what had been a 'realistic' character-driven fic. I can see -- especially given the focus in prior chapters on developing Haruhi's and Kyon's affection for one another -- how it might produce whiplash. Again, personally I have an 'ignore stupid things' filter, so it took someone else's commentary on the matter to make me notice it beyond just flagging it as a strange and random K:BDH shout-out.

[sarsaparilla]

Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Been meaning to, but postponed because of the sheer size of the thing but after what you just told me....

...

Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

[Arakawa]

Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

Hmm, and I'd have thought "Beware the unsubtle harem plot!" in the fic description would have been ample warning. I'm trying to figure out if I've maybe overstated the issue...

*counts size of Kyon's harem on fingers*

Spoiler: ShowHide

let's see, Tsuruya (official fiancee due to ninkyo dantai status), Haruhi (de facto first wife), Mikuru, Yuki, Kanae (slider OC based on Novel-9 description of Yasumi), who am I missing...

I think I'm missing Kuyou. I'm not even sure whether to count her in the harem or not.

So that's four or five five or six girls, depending on whether you count Kuyou. No, I think "O_o dear god" just about describes it.

[sarsaparilla]

Hmm, and I'd have thought "Beware the unsubtle harem plot!" in the fic description would have been ample warning.

I didn't really understand what that entailed ... and it wasn't even the only thing in your description that gave me temporary breathing difficulties. Actually reading it then ... would turn me into a hysterically crying, screaming mess, and I must avoid that.

Anyway, I forgot to thank you for your contribution. I feel much better now that I can see the context. For a while I was seriously suspecting that I'm getting delusional.

Edit: One final thought. Maybe it's so that in order to write good fan fiction one must be able to make a solid connection between the characters and different aspects of one's own personality. While the characters essentially becoming a part of oneself is a strength, it is also a weakness, as other fiction that present the characters in a way that is fundamentally incompatible with one's own interpretation passes all defense mechanisms through that connection and essentially causes an internal cognitive dissonance and a conflict in one's self-image.

I just realized that after reading this fic my mind got disconnected from my internal representations of Haruhi and Kyon, and it took me a conscious effort to re-establish that connection. I care too much. >_>

Edit: One final final thought. It wasn't my intention to hijack this thread. If I have inconvenienced or irritated somebody, I would like to apologize.

[Halbarad]

Honestly, the point here is a shaky one, and I'm not completely satisfied with the results (in terms of Haruhi being IC) myself either. In complete honesty, if this Haruhi tried to run with the idea, the number of resultant disasters would not be small - it could work out, but rocky doesn't begin to describe the difficulty in getting such an arrangement going here.

She's mostly grasping at ideas for trying to make things up to Mikuru, and since she doesn't have much else to go on, the idea of a multiple-party relationship is on the table. From her perspective, she's less worried about Kyon now that she's got a definite confession from him, and sees this more as a way of getting Mikuru as a 'bonus' of sorts - she hasn't really thought the idea through that much and doesn't have a clue what kind of difficulties they're likely to run into in trying to pull it off.

I'm debating whether or not to edit the point out entirely, since I'm not sure it adds much and (as seen) it does throw things off quite a bit.

[Brian]

It's mostly Haruhi trying to break the rules again. She was honestly feeling terrible for the way she treated Mikuru and wanted to make it up to her in some way, but she's not willing to give up Kyon for her. Since the standard options would be to either apologize profusely and end up with Mikuru out in the cold, or to give up Kyon for Mikuru (neither of which she likes), she decides to at least look into breaking the rules and taking a third option.

Is this supposed to be a serious interpretation of Haruhi's character? I thought so before the epilogue, but just can't take it that way any more.

Conversely, I find it entirely plausible.  Haruhi is selfish, yes--  At the time of Sigh, which is around eight months before this fic is set.  She becomes more tolerant and understanding as time goes on.  Sure, she seems to emphasises her own primacy (Valentines day), but I also see that (like Hal says) she likes Mikuru.

So, to stay focused, my question can be rephrased: Am I the only one who thinks that in the epilogue Haruhi is completely OOC and does something disturbing?

[...]

Edit: to clarify -- my question is completely serious and asked in good faith. I have certain ... issues, which dictates that whenever I disagree with somebody else over character interpretation, I must always question my own interpretation first, and the possibility that I have gotten everything so fundamentally wrong really makes me feel bad.

I don't have any problems with seeing Haruhi in such a relationship -- though, in my mind, Haruhi would expect to be at the center of it.  It felt like something that Haruhi would actually do.

Admittedly, as things are presented here, I don't actually get the impression that they end in some Haruhi/Kyon/Mikuru matchup; it feels more like Haruhi and Kyon are going to get together, and Haruhi doesn't want to force the issue with her powers, so is willing to let Haruhi and Mikuru be together without forcing the issue.  In my mind, I would see Mikuru maybe dating Kyon for a while and then eventually moving on to be just a close friend to both.

Then again, I don't see things the same way as a lot of other people.

@sarsaparilla: Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero. The whole idea that Haruhi takes the initiative to begin sharing Kyon (here with Mikuru; in K:BDH with practically any even-slightly-eligible-girl associated with the brigade) seems to originate straight from there.

...could you, maybe, just a bit, tone down the invective there, Arakawa?  I don't really think that there's as much of a parallel as you're suggesting.  This is kind of depressing, and you also misrepresent some things in that summary (and what follows).

I guess I shouldn't be too upset, it's not like that'll probably influence anyone who hasn't read it yet.

Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Been meaning to, but postponed because of the sheer size of the thing but after what you just told me....

...

Words fail me. I'm sorry, Brian, but I must mark K:BDH permanently off-limits for myself. I know with absolute certainty that I couldn't handle it. Personal squick strikes again.

...Arakawa....  I just don't even....  Spoilers for people who haven't read it aside--  Can we restrain the messages about how much what I write sucks to my own threads, instead of dragging it out into everywhere else?  Please?

It's becoming clearer and clearer you really don't like me (though I honestly don't know why).  Since it's not going to be curbed, can I just ask you to focus?

*sigh*

For what it's worth, Sarsaparilla, I did not expect you to ever read it, if you'd been putting it off this long -- and my further expectation was you would dismiss it after 4-5 chapters as not being intellectually engaging.  The fic is not 'Haruhi brainwashes herself into a haremette'.  I won't bother defending it or saying what it actually is at this point (since you won't ever read it) -- just -- please know that it's _not that_, and I wouldn't write such a thing. -_-

Edit: Arakawa, you can say whatever you like -- but we have a whole review forum for you to badmouth what I write; I kind of didn't like the "and you should REALLY be squicked by (misrepresentation)" thing showing up in commentary on another fic.  Maybe that's something you do subconsciously, like labeling that horrible Riddle of Kyon character 'Downfall!Kyon', to somehow attach a character I despised to something I wrote....

Depresses the hell out of me.

[sarsaparilla]

Ack, I did it again. Too late, I know, but I'm sorry. ;_;

[Brian]

Ack, I did it again. Too late, I know, but I'm sorry. ;_;

Absolutely not the case -- this was (and yet again) Arakawa.

[Arakawa]

Absolutely not the case -- this was (and yet again) Arakawa.

Sigh... I think the term 'insensitive' fits me to a tee. Seeing that I'm consistently unable to predict how the words I write will be perceived on the other end.

I'll have to think carefully about what my problem is. For now, I've put the offending passage in spoiler tags, along with a warning that -- I'll repeat this -- Brian's opinion on his own fic is probably more valid than the one I seem to have conveyed.

[Arakawa]

Okay, so first to identify the misconception. What I should have written was something like:

Hmm... I'm curious to know if you've read Kyon: Big Damn Hero.

Spoiler: ShowHide

That fic also has a scenario where Haruhi takes the initiative in sharing Kyon with other girls in the Brigade. {Note: omit details about how this is accomplished -- having read those parts of the fic a long while ago, trying to explain them here is just shooting myself in the foot.} I think the problem is that, whereas K:BDH gradually developed  the in-story justification for such an arrangement, here the basic idea sort of appears out of nowhere in the epilogue. I can see how -- especially given the earlier strong focus in 'Under Review' on Kyon and Haruhi's romance -- suddenly throwing the notion of including Mikuru in the relationship might produce whiplash.

I'm... not sure how much better that would have been, but it's my best shot at communicating what seems to me a legitimate thought ('Under Review' just randomly threw a plot element at us which K:BDH took great care to establish gradually) and if it's not good enough then I'm severely worried about my inability to discuss things civilly.

What I actually wrote seems to have come across as "Hal's fic has Harem Factor, and K:BDH has (Harem Factor)^2 + self-brainwashing, therefore avoid". (Thinking that sarsaparilla must have -- based on her strongly conflicted reaction to Hal's epilogue -- a personal bias against seeing characters in a harem scenario, I only realized that it might be just a result of how I presented K:BDH after Brian's response.) So having assumed that K:BDH is a universally well-regarded fic, I took insufficient care not to end up ragging on it by proxy :-(

Moreover, I mentioned (spoiled) the details of how the fic developed the situation up to that point, which I have most likely misinterpreted / projected / completely misremembered, gave them out of context (which only highlights the fact that to avoid squick factor and justify such an unusual arrangement, they have been built up to gradually in the actual fic, over many thousands of words). Thus I've objectively poisoned the atmosphere by turning sarsaparilla off a fic (widely considered a seminal work in Haruhi fanfiction) which she would have otherwise read and formed her own opinion on...

I'm honestly unsure how to deal with what I've wrought.

[Jon]

I'm honestly unsure how to deal with what I've wrought.

My suggestion: take a break, clear your head. It usually helps for me, anyway.