The Coin is something I've been working on for a few weeks after finishing an Evangelion piece. I came up with it before the release of The Surprise but found a way to keep the basic idea even after those events. The premise--that Haruhi discovers her powers--is likely nothing new, but I don't subscribe to the notion that what Haruhi wants most in this world is a universe full of time-travelers, espers, and aliens. She'd like that, but it's not the absolute most important to her. Hence, this is my theory of her mind and what makes her tick, and it all stems from a seemingly innocent event: changing a coin at a vending machine to suit her whims.
The story so far can be found here (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7218037/). Alternatively, a PDF is attached that includes chapter three, which I present for critique. I'd had the text of that chapter reproduced below, but it seems to be longer than the maximum message length. If desired, I can post it in two parts instead or attach it in some other more suitable format, since the PDF is admittedly visually cool and all but probably not well-suited for editing.
Edit: the pdf below is the complete version, and a gzipped tar archive of html versions is also provided for convenience.
I like it. I don't have the knowledge base in Haruhi to really make insightful comments about the plot, though one thing did jump out at me. In chapter 2:
QuoteHonestly, it makes a lot more sense than people would think. If everyone on Earth woke up tomorrow with special powers, they wouldn't have any clue what to do or how to use them. They probably wouldn't even know they had powers at all—it'd be awfully convenient if they did, at least. In stories, no one used to give that a second thought. Superman flies and sees through your clothes and stuff. They never questioned how he learned to fly or if he crossed his eyes to see x-rays or anything like that. Nowadays it's the opposite. Every story is about trying to learn the ropes, but they take it too far. Isn't it a little silly that there's only one way to shoot web from your wrists? It's like the writers tried too hard to get it right and made some things that should be easy to pick up way too hard.
It feels a little odd for Haruhi to be using American cultural icons to identify this with, rather than native ones. It was enough to break the flow of reading and make me think about it.
That said, I like your style and how your writing flows. Despite not being familiar with the novels or much of Haruhi's character growth, her narrative felt natural.
Ultraman!
I likes it. Waiting for Kyon to trust her enough to say "I am John Smith", though.
Quote from: Jon on August 29, 2011, 06:23:36 AMI likes it. Waiting for Kyon to trust her enough to say "I am John Smith", though.
Oh, we had that conversation. >_>
*cough*
Anyway! I've commented on this, in e-mail, where line-by-line is easier. Because I am somewhat lazy, I'll link to it here:
http://www.chez-vrolet.net/pipermail/ffml/2011-August/003198.html
Anyway, Muprhid, thanks again for sharing. :)
Glad to see people are enjoying the show. As far as the Superman/Spiderman stuff, I think that's valid criticism. I should do some thinking as to what Japanese equivalents there would be.
And as I said on FFML, Brian's been very helpful with this project, and I'm grateful. I think the revised chapter three will definitely be better and tighter thanks to the criticism and advice given.
Note - sleep-deprived commenter alert!How can you think Japanese superheroes and not mention Kamen Rider???
A couple of things I took issue with in the earlier chapters, sufficiently so that you might want to consider changing them:
Quote"Haruhi Land?" I said. "You think we should have an SOS Brigade
theme park?"
"What? What on earth would give you—"
"We could have a roller coaster!" I said. "We could make a giant
Mikuru-chan ride, with the curves and loops going around her huge— "
Kyon slapped both hands over my mouth. Looking over his shoul- der, he laughed nervously. "It's all right!" he told the class. "Nothing to see here. Nothing at all!" He narrowed his eyes, whispering to me. "Be serious, will you?"
I pulled his wrists away. "I'm always serious."
This is frankly Haruhi at her most ludicrous, so when you don't explain the thought process behind this exchange, the story effectively shifts into third person for the duration. Is Haruhi actually serious at any level? (If so, where does the idea come from?) Does she just say that as a retort to Kyon, so she can have the last word? It obviously can't be both.
Quote"Ah, what a wonderful surprise," said Koizumi-kun. "As you know, I'm a fan of mysteries. I've actually been consulting a collection of de- tective stories recommended by Nagato-san, starting with Edgar Allan Poe and his tales of C. Auguste—"
Nagato gives Koizumi book recommendations? That made me do a double-take, and decide this was probably Koizumi BSing on behalf of the alien. Not sure whether that was your intention here.. if so it might help to insert a hint to that effect.
Quote"Then allow me to make a prediction. Suzumiya Haruhi, I see in your future a sleepless night of trying to make the universe bend to your mental will, but the universe, as devious a creature as there ever was, will merely conjure quantum magic to do strange things like make a car able to tunnel through a mountain. God does play dice with the universe, and to keep us lowly mortals from understanding it, He can rig the game, make the dice unfair."
Wait, so is the car able or unable to tunnel through the mountain? (looking at the PDF version here)
Since you're writing an erudite fic I'll say that a couple of things reminded me of other things that you
didn't reference. I'm not certain if you don't know them, or if you know them but didn't find them interesting to reference, or if I'm just mistaken on something.
The whole setup reminds me of those reality checks you do to try to trigger a lucid dream. You know, you identify yourself to be in a dream by trying to catch things that your mind can't simulate very well - detailed things like machines, or writing, or hands. When those start behaving weirdly you can infer that you're in a dream as opposed to a physical reality.
This was especially brought to mind by your stated notion that Haruhi's powers work best when things change offscreen, which is also a reasonable assertion about affecting your reality in a lucid dream.
Your blog notes on Haruhi being attracted to the idea of changing Kyon's mind on things, rather than to Kyon himself, remind me vaguely of some themes in Plato's 'Symposium'. There's a certain 'philosophy as seduction' angle in the latter.
Now, then, Chapter 3, the one you wanted us to pre-read. Again, I'm late to this party; I'll just be looking for things other people don't seem to have complained about, so feel free to ignore all this:
Quoteit asked me something, the simplest question there is. Why? Really why, not just because I'm savvy or whatever.
Maybe I'm being overly snarky or my English skills have spontaneously shut off, but I have no idea what the last sentence in there was supposed to mean. Whatever you were trying to express there, it's not getting across to me.
QuoteI guess I'm one of those mysteries too, but for now, the lid's going back on Pandora's box to catch hope at the bottom.
Another muddled image. I can at least understand the point here because of the mythological reference. But then, knowing the details of the myth, the metaphor is really mixed up - so you've released all the nasty stuff from Pandora's box, but then you put the lid on so that Hope and Tears (I think that was the other nice spirit in the box) are still trapped inside? Um, ouch.
QuoteMake no mistake: baseball is a battle. No, strike that: base- ball is more like war. Battles are small. They tide of combat can turn quickly. Wars are grander, bigger. Whenever a battle is won or lost, the strategy of a war changes.
The baseball soliloquy seems to take a bit long to get to the point. Okay, baseball is a war, victory inspires players to play aggressively, then it's all governed by statistics, then it's all about accepting whether you've won or lost because you can't redo any of your previous plays, it seems like this might be related to what Haruhi is feeling in terms of her predicament, but instead of being tied in to the narrative it exists as this amorphous blob. Either that or she's just zoning out for a minute thinking about why she likes baseball. Maybe it's too late to fix, but if you have an elaborate metaphor like that it might be better to split it into chunks inserted throughout the previous/subsequent scene and develop things gradually.
This is stuff that doesn't *really* detract from enjoying the fic. It's just that when the writing is below a certain level I can tune out the author making an inapt analogy because, hey, two paragraphs down come the jollies. When the writing rises
above a certain level I get curious as to whether the author might have some deeper point in mind, which is when I get inspired to read carefully and some of the carelessly constructed metaphors and analogies start to really break my brain.
I'll have to go back and scan your older chapters for similarly questionable moments. It took me most of two chapters to realize that this was going to be serious business, so before then I probably blew past a couple of similarly strange things without even noticing.
Again, forgive my snark since it's late where I am and it's probably best to post
something right now as opposed to putting it off until God knows when tomorrow.
QuoteThis is frankly Haruhi at her most ludicrous, so when you don't explain the thought process behind this exchange, the story effectively shifts into third person for the duration. Is Haruhi actually serious at any level? (If
so, where does the idea come from?) Does she just say that as a retort to Kyon, so she can have the last word? It obviously can't be both.
My opinion? She's absolutely serious about exploring the idea, but she knows it would never happen. That's why it's okay to explore the idea.
...or something.
QuoteNagato gives Koizumi book recommendations? That made me do a double-take, and decide this was probably Koizumi BSing on behalf of the alien. Not sure whether that was your intention here.. if so it might help to insert a hint to that effect.
I don't feel like there's anything particularly unusual in Koizumi asking Nagato for a recommendation, honestly. They may be watching Haruhi most of the time, but they can do other things to pass the time. Detective stories would be like job research.
QuoteWait, so is the car able or unable to tunnel through the mountain? (looking at the PDF version here)
In real life? The odds would be beyond astronomical, but quantum mechanics is great that way. Few things are ever truly impossible that way. Really, even if Haruhi's power is inexplicable to science, an isolated event (like a car tunneling through a mountain--and by tunneling, this isn't boring a hole but rather simply passing through it with no change to either) could be explained as a quantum fluctuation or some other nonsense until Haruhi did it again and again.
Quote
Maybe I'm being overly snarky or my English skills have spontaneously shut off, but I have no idea what the last sentence in there was supposed to mean. Whatever you were trying to express there, it's not getting across to me.
This is probably a side-effect of trying to use too few words to get the point across (similar to how whatever it is that's speaking to her is communicating in a nonverbal way). Why should middle school Haruhi shy away from the unknown when it stares her in the face?
QuoteThe baseball soliloquy seems to take a bit long to get to the point. Okay, baseball is a war, victory inspires players to play aggressively, then it's all governed by statistics, then it's all about accepting whether you've won or lost because you can't redo any of your previous plays, it seems like this might be related to what Haruhi is feeling in terms of her predicament, but instead of being tied in to the narrative it exists as this amorphous blob. Either that or she's just zoning out for a minute thinking about why she likes baseball. Maybe it's too late to fix, but if you have an elaborate metaphor like that it might be better to split it into chunks inserted throughout the previous/subsequent scene and develop things gradually.
Yeah, the baseball analogy is a bit meandering on closer inspection. I'll try to clean that up and make it more focused.
You make a very good point about quality and focus here, how people tend to skip when a passage doesn't hold their attention. I'm guilty of that myself, but since I tend to sprinkle hints and clues in several places, there's a definite risk that one of those clues will be in a less well-constructed passage and be missed as a result. So, consistent quality is important (obviously), but doubly so for me if I want to make a solvable puzzle (to touch on what we were talking about with your piece). I like that viewpoint on things quite a bit. Thanks.
QuoteMy opinion? She's absolutely serious about exploring the idea, but she knows it would never happen. That's why it's okay to explore the idea.
...or something.
Then how about character thoughts to that effect? Even (for example) writing "well,
someone in this Brigade has to think big." as a private thought right after Haruhi says she's serious would probably work to indicate all that.
Quote<snip> could be explained as a quantum fluctuation or some other nonsense until Haruhi did it again and again.
Still concerned. The paragraph I quoted has Kyon basically saying "Haruhi, you're going to stay up all night trying to do something weird, and then the universe is going to oblige you by doing something weird (like making a car able to tunnel through a mountain)," which I don't think is what he's actually trying to say here. One would assume he's trying to discourage Haruhi.
QuoteThis is probably a side-effect of trying to use too few words to get the point across (similar to how whatever it is that's speaking to her is communicating in a nonverbal way). Why should middle school Haruhi shy away from the unknown when it stares her in the face?
Axndfefmg... still confused. Okay, let's start with a simple question - which of the two voices was asking her 'why?'
QuoteStill concerned. The paragraph I quoted has Kyon basically saying "Haruhi, you're going to stay up all night trying to do something weird, and then the universe is going to oblige you by doing something weird (like making a car able to tunnel through a mountain)," which I don't think is what he's actually trying to say here. One would assume he's trying to discourage Haruhi.
The universe will oblige her by doing something weird, but that doesn't mean you made it happen--that's what I was going for. Keep in mind Kyon's on the spot here...but I can see it's not getting across, so it probably does need some work.
QuoteAxndfefmg... still confused. Okay, let's start with a simple question - which of the two voices was asking her 'why?'
The main one, the source of which she can't remember or see. I'll put some language in there to clear that up, too.
Thanks.
So, after some painstaking debugging of perl, we now have a chapter of
The Coin in HTML for convenience.
I think I mentioned before to Brian that the story could be broken by having Kyon come out and tell Haruhi what's going on. I think I found a way for that not to break things as much, and I'm much happier for it. Other than that, I do wonder if this would be better served as two separate chapters, stopping where Asakura takes Haruhi to the Piggy planet. When I conceived of this as a single installment, I didn't think the exposition with Nagato and Kyon would take quite so long (hence, it also doesn't cover nearly everything that's ever happened, either).
This chapter also has some more breaks than the others (perhaps due to Brian's influence, perhaps from the nature of what's happening). I'm not so sure I'm happy about that, either. The ending is also...something I'm not quite so sure about.
Anyway, I think this parsed correctly. If not, the only paragraphs that should be missing or weird would be ones with diacritics, accents, etc.
Edit: apologies, it's been pointed out to me that some parts of this don't really make sense without considering a significant edit I performed on the last chapter. I'd reworked the scene with Mori so that she invoked the Asakura incident from Melancholy, save for her own twisting of the truth to convince Haruhi that she must've erased Asakura out of jealousy. The bulk of that revised scene is reproduced below. -Edit x2: It also affects the later club room scene before the baseball game, but that change is comparatively minor and just follows from this.
When I got to the square outside the station, I was panting, but I'm not weak. I stood upright, catching my breath as I walked. If this woman had been outside the school, maybe I'd recognize her. I trotted by the clock a couple times, searching, scouring the shops and the crosswalks. Where are you, stranger? You can't hide from me. My eyes see everything. Haven't I seen you before, orange-haired woman? Yeah, I'm talking to you. In the heels and the plain white, buttoned shirt—haven't I seen you before?
No, that doesn't make sense. This person should be waiting for me, not browsing for bread or cheese at the sandwich shop across the way. I looked around the triangular island between the three streets, and that's how I found her. There was a cherry tree surrounded by a knee-high concrete wall. She sat on a corner, a young sapling at her back. She was casually dressed, wearing a black skirt with white socks and flat, shiny, dark shoes. Her blouse was light blue, and the sleeves came just past her shoulders. She kept a brown leather bag at her feet, and as she checked her watch, she fingered the strap with a pensive, worried look on her face. She didn't look the way I was used to seeing her, but I'd know her anywhere.
"Mori-san!" I called out. "What are you doing here?"
Her eyes went wide, and she stood up suddenly, bowing. "Suzumiya-sama, good afternoon. I worried, when we couldn't get through to you, that you might not show."
"You should've just left your name with my mother," I said. "I'd have come right away! Wow, it's such a change to see you dressed like this. It's good, though. It's cute."
She bowed again, blushing slightly. "You flatter me, truly. As you must know by now, I'm not a maid by profession, though I have experience with the duties the job requires. Arakawa-san and I are part an acting troupe."
"Of course," I said. "Koizumi-kun was lucky to find all of you for his mysteries. You really made both of them feel real."
She bowed once more. "Again, you flatter me."
"Well, let me stop before you hurt your back. It's good seeing you, but why on earth would you call me out here?"
Mori-san's expression darkened. Her smile faded away. She looked aside. "That's a difficult question to answer quickly. I should apologize for making you come all this way, but the day does grow late. Perhaps we could speak some other time?"
"No, no," I said. "I won't hear of that. You called me out here; the least I can do is hear what you have to say."
"But Suzumiya-sama—"
"I insist!"
"I see," she said quietly. "Very well. Please, won't you sit with me?"
I brushed some dirt off the retaining wall beside Mori-san, but for some moments, we sat quietly, with only car horns and train whistles to break the silence. Mori-san entwined her fingers together, squeezing them. At last, a sound passed through her lips. She spoke.
"As I said, I'm an actress," Mori-san began, "but I leave that persona on the stage or in my work. Here, I'm just Mori Sonō. Or I would be, but even now, I still have a job to perform. Do you know what that job is?"
I don't. How could I? I've only seen you twice, Mori-san. I don't know anything about you.
Her eyebrows rose in surprise. "Of course. That's only natural. I suppose I'm a mystery to you after all. What should I say? When I moved here, I'd just landed my first big role as Ophelia, and I thought it'd be a stepping stone to bigger and better things, but here I am. Four years later, I've not moved on from this place. I've tried different things. I did kabuki for a while, until my manager told me, in no uncertain terms, I wasn't cut out for it."
No? But Mori-san, you're amazing! You had all of us fooled on that island. You slip into character like it's nothing.
"It wasn't my skill he criticized," she explained. "On stage, in the midst of a performance, I'd fallen asleep from fatigue, collapsing against the set. He assumed I lacked the stamina, that performing and rehearsal had taken a toll on my body, but that's not what really happened. I couldn't tell him the truth because no one would believe me. I'd become obsessed with someone."
A boyfriend?
"If only. That would've been much easier to explain away. No, Arakawa-san and I—he was my mentor at the time—we began to realize something: that the world we live in is subject to whims and flights of fancy. The impossible can become reality. If you tell people this, and they'll look at you strangely. They'll laugh at you. They'll demand proof, but you—this doesn't surprise you, does it?"
Mori-san...what are you saying? Who is this person you became obsessed with? Tell me plainly. Don't wiggle around with it.
She sighed. "Of course. That's a fair request. You see, Arakawa-san and I discovered that, to one person's wishes, the world would respond." She opened her leather bag and took out a dark blue folder, laying a large-print photograph on top. The cherry tree above us was weak and losing its blossoms. The ones in the photo weren't. It was a shot of the park by the canal. The cherry trees were in full colors. Two boys sat on a bench, watching a battle waitress, an alien witch, and their director marvel at the falling pink petals. "If she wished for cherry blossoms to bloom again, even in the cooling autumn, they'd oblige her. They'd make her visions real."
What are you talking about? That was a change in the weather. This photo of yours doesn't mean anything.
"You're right. We've never caught this person in the act of making the world fit her image of it. We can only infer, based on what she wants and what transpires, whether her wishes have come true. Believe me, Suzumiya-sama, that's not the only piece of evidence we have. Look." Another photo. A flock of white pigeons congregated at a shrine. "She found these birds too dull in their natural gray color. She made their feathers white instead. You remember, don't you? You've been to this shrine before."
That's ridiculous. What kind of creepy stalker are you? Making up these stupid stories like you can convince me I'm something I'm not? Get out of here. All you're showing me is proof of someone's cruelty to animals, painting a flock of birds to suit their fancy. You can't tell me I made it happen. I didn't have anything to do with it!
"Just like you had nothing to do with making a fifty-yen coin into a hundred to quench your thirst?"
I bolted from my seat. How the hell do you know about that?
"I know because we always thought it was just a matter of time. I gave up on moving forward with acting. I devoted my life to watching you, to studying you and preserving your mental state. There are so few of us who believe, who know for a fact what power you have. We watch because no one else will, because no one else would believe the world heeds the thoughts and feelings of a simple high-school girl."
I don't know who you are, and I don't care to know, all right? Get away from me, you creepy freak, you deluded woman!
"Or what?" She held out a third photo—the gate to school, with me and Kyon and Kunikida standing all around him, that boy on the ground. "You'll strike me down like you did Taniguchi-kun?"
I shuddered. Stop that. That's a lie. You hear me? I didn't do that on purpose; it was an accident!
"You've been doing it for years! You did it just a few days ago! Look over there!" She pointed. "Look at that, the broken concrete, the crack in the ground two meters wide. You threatened a boy with power you didn't know you had!"
How is that my fault? I didn't know! I didn't want anything like that to happen!
"But you did! You must've! Whatever you want but are too stubborn to admit, you make happen! That's why you're dangerous. That's why this has to stop. You need to control this power, Suzumiya-sama. You need to control it, control yourself, or shut it off. I know you're a good person. You don't want to hurt anyone, but in the back of our minds, we wish death or suffering on people all the time. I'm not asking you to be inhumanly good and moral, but do the right thing. You can't use these powers you have. You can't make me and my friends keep watching you and babysitting you, waiting for the moment you'll destroy the world! You must end it! Shut off your powers and never use them again!"
Like I even know how to shut anything off! Like I'd not use them! Really? Maybe you've been watching me, but it sounds like you don't know anything about who I am or how I think. What I can do changes the reality of the world. You'd have to be a fool to give that up, and you're a fool for asking me to! I don't care how it's ruined your life; you did that to yourself! Leave me alone and never come back, or I don't know what I'll do to you!
"You'll erase me."
I turned my back on her. Traffic was heavy around the station. Could I get away from her? Could I just disappear and pop back into my room?
"Isn't that what happened to Asakura Ryōko?"
Asakura? The old class rep?
"You made her disappear, didn't you?"
You have no idea what you're talking about. She went to Canada or some nonsense.
"To a lonely prairie house in Manitoba? A strange place for a Japanese family to suddenly move to. You never really believed that fiction. Look at me."
I stood my ground.
"Look at me, Suzumiya Haruhi, unless you're afraid of what I have to say!"
I'm not afraid, damn you. I'm not. I turned, facing her. She had one more photo to show me: a shot of wilderness, with nothing but flat grasses as far as the eye could see.
"This is where the Asakura house should be," she said. "It doesn't exist. It never has. She was removed from your school. Her records point to nowhere. Now tell me—what did she do to you? Did she insult you? Did she make you angry?"
I never had anything against that girl!
"Didn't you? Don't you know what she was doing in her last hour before she disappeared from this earth? She sent a note to a friend of yours, that boy you're so close to—Kyon-kun, isn't it?"
I don't know anything about that! If I'd known Kyon were meeting with a girl after school, I would've—
"You would've punished him? And punished the girl, too? That's a human reaction. Those are human feelings of jealousy, possessiveness—"
That's not how I feel about him!
"But it is, isn't it? How else can you explain it? You knew what she would do. You knew she'd confess to him. You knew she was charming and friendly, both of which you weren't. You knew she'd win him from you, so you erased her. You made it so she disappeared. With your powers, you changed her records so no one would miss her. And the best part? You'd never even know you'd done it."
No...it's not true! It can't be! I didn't know about Asakura's note, and even if I did, I would never—
"You would never? You'd never send a poor boy to the hospital by sending a lightning bolt through his heart? You'd never smack a girl on the back of her head while she was drunk and helpless, hoping to make her contact lens fly out? I do know who you are; do you know anything about yourself?"
I balled my fists. I trembled. You know what, Mori-san? Fuck you! I've not done anything wrong!
"Believe what I say or erase me." She packed up her back, rising. "I don't want to be in this world anymore, a world where I'm afraid your petty whims will twist everything I've ever known. I want to focus on my acting again, but you won't let me do that. Stop using this power. Stop before you hurt someone again."
She bowed once more—a meaningless, insulting gesture after what she said—and she trotted along the crosswalk without a word. I watched her go with a heavy glare. Damn you, Mori Sonō. I won't forget this. I'll get you back! I'll—
I'll make you disappear.
If I didn't stop myself, I'd make you disappear. I'd prove everything you said about me absolutely right.
What am I?
What have I become?
Did I really make someone...go away?
This isn't how it's supposed to be. It's supposed to be fun and exciting and incredible! People shouldn't get hurt. They shouldn't get blanked out like they were brushed over with correction fluid, never to be seen again. I won't do that. I shouldn't do that. I can't...
"Young Lady?"
It was a stranger, a businessman. He put down his briefcase and looked at me with a puzzled expression.
"Are you all right?" he asked me. "Why are you crying?"
I'm not crying. The water's just coming out of my eyes—that's all.
"Here." He offered a white handkerchief from his breast pocket. "You can keep it if you like. I don't mind."
"NO!" I cried. I batted that thing out of his hand. Get away from me! Are you stupid? Don't you value your life? You have to get away from me! You have to get away before I get angry, before I erase you without thinking about it! Don't you understand? GET AWAY!
He scampered off in a hurry, nearly forgetting his briefcase and clutching his hat so it wouldn't blow away. I left too. Water clouding my sight, I ran through an intersection on the road home. I burst through the door and kicked off my shoes, running upstairs before Mother could say a word. I locked the bedroom door behind me and threw myself on my bed, and the tears soaked into the pillowcase. It wasn't for me; it was for everyone else. Stay away, Mother. Stay away, Father. Stay away, my friends in the SOS Brigade. If something inside me gets angry with you, if it decides you should never be, I don't know how to stop it. I don't know how...
I don't know how.
I don't know how.
A response, on my iPad, with all the spelling errors that entails:
http://www.chez-vrolet.net/pipermail/ffml/2011-September/003275.html
Apologies, Mr. Clark; as per Sarsaparilla's comments, I just need to see a character that powerful (and aware) be more responsible with it. That and even if she has at times become more likable (very briefly), she doesn't feel IC much of the time. You have an interesting story.
But....
Your protagonist keeps slipping into a hateful, easily despicable creature with an utter lack of redeeming qualities. Just like she isn't in the canon. I can't tolerate her any further, and believe me ... I tried.
Well.
Good luck, and I'm sorry again.
Okay, this was fairly concrete and didn't raise any 'oh my god what is the author even trying to say here' issues for me like the last one. (Incidentally, neither did the earlier chapters when I went back and read them.)
The below C&C is somewhat sleep-deprived and all over the place. Just a heads up.
Hammering in the complaint made by Brian because I had it *before* reading his disappointed rant: the very ending of the previous chapter (unless you changed it) made it very obvious that the person throwing the spear was Yuki. Since the reader can put two and two together, and this is first-person narration, I spent much of this chapter wondering why Haruhi kept thinking 'mysterious hero' when she had all the observations on hand necessary to determine that it was in fact Yuki. It makes Haruhi seem sort of thick. Since Haruhi isn't thick, I basically interpreted it as a glaring continuity error.
Another moment during the chapter that's similar is when Kyon cites Mori, Arakawa-san, and Tamaru brothers as espers, when he lists it that way I sort of wonder why Haruhi doesn't immediately consider appending Koizumi to the list.
And at the same time she takes a wild leap and starts insisting with absolute certainty that Kyon is a slider.
QuoteYeah, right. Let's just say this hero had a grasshopper mask while we're at it!
Arbitrary personal preference: use "I might as well say the hero had..." instead.
Quote"Like I said, are these real people we're people we're talking about?"
Repetition: "real people we're people we're talking..." should have been "real people we're talking...".
QuoteI'd figured it'd be pointless get him involved until I had something concrete.
Should be "getting him involved".
QuoteThat's how I discovered the Light Music Club was a group of five girls who wanted to drink tea and eat cookies all the time and thought watching a music anime was enough to learn to be musicians. But that's not the important thing.
Don't write something and then turn around and say it's not important,
especially if it's not important!! (Unless you're writing Mikuru-POV or something so she might always, um, oops... I'm not doing this C&C properly, am I? --
see what I did there?) Since you're
not writing Mikuru-POV: If it's that unimportant but you're that attracted to the idea of showing what Haruhi thinks of 'K-On!', my instinct would be to drop the second sentence and put the first in parentheses.
Quotelooking for potential members and a place to make ours.
Awkward: "a place to make ours".
QuoteSo Everything in the world is made out of data.
Capitalization: "So everything in the world..."
QuoteHonestly, it sounded a bit like Mother's bargaining habits. One time, we'd gone to Okinawa, and she wanted to buy a shirt to take back home. From three thousand yen to start with, she haggled the vendor down to one, scolding him for everything from shoddy workmanship to the scraggly shadow of his beard. I guessed two thousand yen was what he'd be willing to pay to make her stop. Everything has a price.
Earlier you had her absent-mindedly writing a Sailor Moon ripoff. Bipolar any? There's probably an interesting character buried here.
Since Haruhi's mom gets dribbled out like this over bite-size chunks it's hard to make the reader think of her as a character. If you want to seize the opportunity, might not hurt to go back and give the parents a more evident introduction so I'd have known all along to keep watching for tidbits about them. I only figured out that I could mentally index these things into a character description on re-reading.
... I'm making the best case assumption here, that you have actual characters in mind. Worst case is you're just pulling these off the top of your head because they illustrate story points. That's... not actually a bad thing. You can still go back and assemble these pieces into an actual character with interesting little contradictions.
Quotehe began early that morning
Wait, it's morning now? The last time point being mentioned was talking through the night, so it should probably be something that indicates that it's now morning, instead of 'that morning' (which we talked about already).
*reads below*
QuoteAsakura would be expecting us bright and early, so I called home to Mother, telling her I'd stay the night at Yuki's. That Kyon would stay the night too she didn't need to know. Some less wholesome people might think that two girls and a boy all alone in the same apartment a recipe for indecent behavior.
I happen to know that "less wholesome people" includes the entire Model UN organizing committee in New York (two boys and a girl in the instance I have in mind), but that's a completely different story. If we end up together in a bar somehow I'll tell it to you over a couple of beers.
Oh, I get it! You got the sequence of events muddled here, because it ended up looking like
- they talk into the night
- that morning (okay) Kyon bla bla bla
- Haruhi calls her mom (we jumped back in time here)
- You finally introduce 'that morning' properly
It's out of order.
QuoteOkay, I didn't expect him to keep an entire alien race from me, but that didn't change who he was, just what I realized he was capable of
Tense suggestion: how about "I hadn't expected him to keep an entire alien race hidden from me"? Or maybe 'be keeping' but that makes me think 'beekeeping' for some reason. Sleep deprivation any? Or "I didn't expect him to have been keeping...", actually, seems to work well.
QuoteThat's not a bad idea. I took the full cup and poured it straight down my throat, piping hot. That burning sensation unknotted my stomach and made it just a bit easier to breathe.
That's kind of a reckless way to drink tea. Though, I can see Haruhi doing it, not to calm down, but as an antidote to boredom. She might have to reconstitute the inside of her throat afterwards.
Do Japanese people even brew their tea to be particularly hot? The hottest tea I've ever had was brewed by people from Ukraine and actually burned the inside of my mouth before I diluted it, although the correct thing to do there is of course to drink it out of a saucer... anyhow, the moment I saw 'piping hot tea' my instinct was to think back to the frankly traumatic experience I had that time. Cultural tea-drinking habits aside, I think Yuki would try to get the temperature of her tea just right.
Of course, if the reader instead thinks the tea you get at a coffee shop is 'piping hot', then obviously they won't have any problem with this passage.
Eh, it's just tea. I think this is a very personal sticking point that you can just ignore.
QuoteThere was a low, warbling sound. The world went black.
Slider-Yutaka: "Did Asakura just manage to kidnap a self-aware omnipotent being in just 10 words of story time?
Whatever she used, I want one of those!"
QuoteLet's not get excited about the possibilities, about thing you shouldn't do.
Should be "things you shouldn't do".
QuoteI know it was an alien planet, but as I walked over the rough, jagged surface of that yellow world, I had to wonder—just who would want to live on a rock like this? With acid clouds flying overhead and enough heat to make a summer day on Okinawa seem frigid by comparison, you'd have to be crazy to want to stay here. I mean, I pulled from my pocket a ticket stub from the ball game yesterday and tossed it. As soon as it left my hand, it burst into flame and withered like a dead leaf. These helicopter aliens should come to their senses and build a rocketship to get off this rock as fast as they can.
Boring, ordinary human type thoughts. The angle you've vaguely touched on that I find interesting is more along the following lines:
- Alien planets look monotonous and boring to human eyes.
- However, they're just as complex as interesting as human planets, if not more. You just have to know what you're looking for.
- Haruhi eventually realizes this fact. You could even have her learn to interpret what it is she's seeing exactly at the same time she learns the aliens' language.
QuoteThe SOS Brigade is here.
Though, technically, only one of the members actually showed up today.
QuoteSo, I'm sorry, Taniguchi.
I'm going to succumb to the temptation to echo Brian's heckling because it should be easy to just get rid of this or replace it with a line that actually makes sense. What does Haruhi talking to aliens have to do with Haruhi injuring Taniguchi? Is it somehow going to hurt him even further by doing it? Actually, would Haruhi not using her powers in this kind of situation somehow
excuse what she did to Taniguchi? If Taniguchi heard the apology he'd be all "what the
hell, Suzumiya, you expect me to give a damn whether or not you talk to aliens? Just don't freaking strike people down with freaking lightning! Okay??"
If anything she should be apologizing to herself for binding herself with arbitrary limitations that she has to break every five minutes and then feel bad about it for no reason. Heckling over.
QuoteIt's fluttering wavered.
Should be "Its fluttering wavered."
QuoteI'm not called Rooter.
I'm calling you Rooter, so you are.
Thank you! For a brief moment we get someone who's actually Haruhi.
Quotefind a way to get it to you in a way that this planet won't incinerate
Awkward repetition. Suggest "find a way to get it to you so this planet doesn't incinerate it".
QuoteAfter all, you have to establish there are compatible pieces first.
Missing a word somewhere. "whether there are" or "that there are", or just "establish that they have" could all work.
QuoteThese 'Piggies' are just the beginning. There are millions upon millions of planets with life, and the Integrated Data Sentient Entity is all too willing to help you visit them, to give you the opportunity to live the life of an adventurer, the greatest explorer humanity will ever know.
Waaaiit... your Asakura is negotiating this from the wrong angle. Why does Haruhi need the IDSE to take her to alien planets? It's not like she can't just follow that opportunity on her own. The real threat they're holding against her is that Asakura will be released on another rampage. I'm thinking of a scene like this:
Haruhi stumbles drunk out of a pretty sweet party.
Asakura pulls up in a bright, shiny taxi.
Asakura: "Here, take this taxi."
Haruhi (slurred): "You kiddin' me? I can't take a taxi!
Asakura: "See those pedestrians? If you don't take the IDSE's glorified taxi service and submit to our alien probing, I'm going to run them over."
Haruhi stumbles into the taxi, utterly defeated by this argument. Asakura drives her home, merrily lecturing her on the finer points of defensive driving the whole way. Haruhi finally stumbles into her apartment.
Haruhi (slurred): "**, I could've just teleported into bed and saved a whole bunch of time."
I'm going to be timing (in hundreds of words) how long it takes Haruhi to figure that out in your fic and at least lampshade it for us so we know she's not being taken in by arguments that a toddler could see through.
Quotebut will you really forsake the opportunity to see Rooter-san again?
Again, Asakura seems to be using Haruhi's low self-esteem and the fact that the Idiot Ball keeps Haruhi from realizing that she doesn't need Asakura to provide an interplanetary taxi service. This is a shaky basis for negotiations.
I guess the other angle they could use, actually, of Asakura constantly engaging in terrorism that Haruhi has to clean up after, isn't very promising either. Logically that's just a ticking time bomb since if Haruhi develops her powers and Asakura keeps pissing her off, Haruhi will eventually get tempted to go all Fury of a Time Lord on the IDSE. I'm guessing they don't want that to happen. Your fic actually makes me tempted to think that the front line interfaces are presently dicking around with Haruhi on their own initiative, while the decision process back in data space has reached complete deadlock and so the IDSE as a whole has no clue what to do.
I mean, the fact that they seem (?) to have solicited (?) the services of some human named Beckett-san to do what they can theoretically do themselves (? if I got the gist of that scene right ?) is already abnormal as all hell.
Have you considered the "do you want to be friends with Yuki" negotiation angle, by the way?
QuoteI learned a lot more about my powers and what I could do on that journey back to Earth.
... and Haruhi could probably travel between stars faster than Asakura could. If anything Asakura should be trying to prod Haruhi to come up with some new trick for interstellar travel at this point.
QuoteSo dour you can be now.
Like Yoda I sound all of a sudden. Was that intentional?
QuoteI'm getting tired of people doing that—leaving without answering any real questions.
Wouldn't Haruhi suspect that Beckett just moved her to a similar but parallel universe or something? After all, it's already been established she's on the lookout for sliders.
So you could add "abruptly kidnapping me whenever they find it convenient" to that complaint.
Guess that's it. Hope you can use all the complaints that are useful and ignore all the ones that aren't.
Unrelated note: analyzing this chapter actually broke writer's block on a fic idea I sort of had kicking around. Hopefully I'll actually manage to post the first instalment of that later today!
EDIT (added later that morning): Great, and now Brian is hung over. I'm going to let myself go now and sort of rant below based on his objections, ignore anything I say that might be hurtful since I still really like your fic. Poking it apart, though, is going to help me with understanding the original story, among other things.
Regarding Brian's rant, I think Poor Communication Kills really killed him. (We get enough of that nonsense in Hollywood chick flicks.) Don't worry, you're still at 50% there since everyone was excited about the premise to begin with. Maybe (just speculating) the most immediate problem with Kyon's coyness in this chapter is that it serves
mostly as pointless padding to delay Yuki's reveal as an alien (which should have been the very beginning of the chapter, with barely any impact to the flow of the story). e.g. Haruhi could just have saw Yuki in the apartment, said "Oh, she's the alien", reconsidered how she'd been treating her, saved a few hundred words, and been spared the indignity of fainting. I mean, she's a vigorous, athletic girl, it's actually a bit jarring to have her faint like that. Maybe if she'd just been in
really intense personal danger (like: trapped with psycho Asakura in sealed room dodging spears being thrown directly at her for several hours) or if you'd emphasized much more earlier on that she was really out of her depth in the stadium and overwhelmed with adrenaline or something at being in the middle of an emergency, she might be so worn out afterwards that a sudden revelation causes her to faint but here... it's just one of many possible ways to segue into her thoughts regarding Yuki, and it's not the smoothest.
I say the padding in your fic is pointless
because enough interesting stuff happens that you could still centre the story around it even with substantial deflation of the soap opera. The word count might shrink somewhat, which might be hurtful to Authorial Pride but actually eases the telling.
Actually, there is *one* issue which really bugs me in retrospect, which is that
Haruhi decided in the last chapter that she wanted nothing to do with her powers, and then nearly wound up letting a stadium of people go splat because to save them would be Crossing The Line which she just drew herself a couple thousand words of story ago. Which is a really heavy-handed tearjerker. The other "Haruhi arbitrarily restricts herself" stuff I could breeze through and just sort of ignore.
It's not so much an Idiot ball here as it is an Arbitrary Morality ball. Particularly arbitrary since in the books it's made clear Haruhi's powers are, on some level, an extension of her personality. They exist whenever it's convenient for whatever scheme she's undertaking and especially when she doesn't care about the consequences. Think back to how Kyon stopped Endless Eight -- well, at least that's one theory I'm considering. (It's implied in the most recent books that her powers start 'settling down' as she becomes more mature, which I guess is easy to mistake for a heavy-handed application of Growing Up Sucks but isn't *quite* that in my opinion.)
Now I know in your fanfic that you're just taking it as generic vaguely defined omnipotence, but given the books it feels a bit jarring to have Haruhi clam up just as she finds out about her powers. By the above logic, if Haruhi started to feel qualms about changing things, her powers would also clam up as a result, and it would lead into some kind of sappy Believe in Yourself thing where she has to be comfortable with her own hurricane-like personality (tempered with the maturity needed to Use It For Good) in order for her powers to return and be able to save the stadium of people or whatever. I don't think that's quite what you wanted to end up with... although in that case Kyon would have a more positive role to play in actually supporting her as she tries to regain her powers, as opposed to producing arbitrary conflict and romantic misunderstanding.
Your fic... it's like if you took Sasaki with her highly specific notions of when it is right and wrong to interfere (the nature of whose powers actually reflects this fact in the books!) and arbitrarily put her in Haruhi's position. Which, actually... oh wait, that was being considered in the books, wasn't it? And Sasaki hated that idea. You know those fic ideas being kicked around introducing a backstory where Sasaki actually discarded the cosmic powers in one contrived way or another (possibly by splitting herself in two people) and the powers ended up with Haruhi? That's another thing I might easily imagine your Haruhi, the way you're writing her, to be on the point of doing, if there was anyone who even looked remotely like a more responsible figure.
I don't know, I'm really conflicted about this all of a sudden. As I said, I'm going to go write my own fic to work it out for myself now.
Note to self: I'm going to make extra sure in the fic that people mostly trust each other. It will save everyone a lot of time.
I'm glad to have an extra opinion on this aside from Brian's because his alone left me uncertain what magnitude of revision should be done. With your feedback largely coming from the same direction, Arakawa Seijio, I'm convinced that a rewrite of the chapter is needed to get across what I want to get across and without the problems that have clearly detracted from that.
Thank you both.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 05:21:53 PMQuoteThat's how I discovered the Light Music Club was a group of five girls who wanted to drink tea and eat cookies all the time and thought watching a music anime was enough to learn to be musicians. But that's not the important thing.
Don't write something and then turn around and say it's not important, especially if it's not important!! (Unless you're writing Mikuru-POV or something so she might always, um, oops... I'm not doing this C&C properly, am I? -- see what I did there?) Since you're not writing Mikuru-POV: If it's that unimportant but you're that attracted to the idea of showing what Haruhi thinks of 'K-On!', my instinct would be to drop the second sentence and put the first in parentheses.
My issue with the vast majority of the references (Portal, Enders Game, etc.) is:
The subject matter is far too serious to be joking about, IMO. It (to me) makes the narrative/narrator feel even more callous/uncaring by throwing 'jokes' in this chilling/depressing exploration of an omnipotent sociopath who rejects empathy.
Only the Madoka one really worked for me, and that because it was started by someone else and felt like a real conversation.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 05:21:53 PMOf course, if the reader instead thinks the tea you get at a coffee shop is 'piping hot', then obviously they won't have any problem with this passage.
Eh, it's just tea. I think this is a very personal sticking point that you can just ignore.
This is a canon trait of Haruhi.
And tea is pretty much 'to taste'; they don't take it (quite) as seriously as the Brits, outside of tea ceremony. It easily can be quite hot!
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 05:21:53 PMAgain, Asakura seems to be using Haruhi's low self-esteem and the fact that the Idiot Ball keeps Haruhi from realizing that she doesn't need Asakura to provide an interplanetary taxi service. This is a shaky basis for negotiations.
What can Ryouko do that Yuki can't?
And even Haruhi should know that. I'm kind of at a loss for that.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 19, 2011, 05:29:24 PMI'm glad to have an extra opinion on this aside from Brian's because his alone left me uncertain what magnitude of revision should be done. With your feedback largely coming from the same direction, Arakawa Seijio, I'm convinced that a rewrite of the chapter is needed to get across what I want to get across and without the problems that have clearly detracted from that.
I'm not really happy with my commentary and how this is working out; I'm sorry I couldn't enjoy your story more, and regardless, that last chapter was just too painful for me to keep doing this to myself. Too much whiplash.
On the technical side of things, and in terms of research, you're doing great. Your writing is really good.
I ... just think your grasp of Haruhi lacks her humanity. I'm sorry about that. I assure you; I wouldn't have been so vehemently bitter (and then got drunk for the first time in five years) if this story didn't really reach me.
I really
did want to like it. -_-
Anyway -- best of luck; I look forward to whatever you write next; I don't feel I can provide anything else constructive here.
@Murphid: Just 'Arakawa' should be fine, actually. Or Arakawa-kun or whatever if you want to indicate my position on the food chain. If you're curious, my screen name is a severely mangled version of my real (non-Japanese) name.
Like I said, even severely flawed as it is, this fic is extremely thought-provoking and pushed me to try to figure out what my own perspective on these characters is -- i.e. I didn't just think it was flawed, I was curious to know
why I thought it was flawed. I guess Brian didn't get that benefit out of it since he already has a clear picture of Haruhi in his head, and he just immediately sees all of the places where your portrayal diverges in ways that he finds unsatisfactory.
I think the first two chapters were really snappy and the rest of the fic is in the doldrums because after the initial setup you're filling up space throwing contrived problems at someone who, logically speaking, should be much better at handling them. None of these problems and misunderstandings seem to be essential to the ideas you're presenting. For example Haruhi could have just gone and saved the stadium, while still hating Asakura for forcing her into, say, using her powers faster than she felt ready to develop them, so that theme is still examined.
Right now I'm actually writing a self-aware Haruhi who's *the opposite* of your version in a ton of important respects. This isn't a belittling of your vision, Murphid, rather the opposite, since reading your Chapter 4 helped me clarify a lot of things.
Now to deal with Brian's comment.
@Brian: Wait, you got drunk *because* of the fic? I guess I had you pegged correctly (ever since 'Downfall') as someone who really takes this stuff to heart.
Quote from: Brian on September 19, 2011, 05:48:07 PM
And tea is pretty much 'to taste'; they don't take it (quite) as seriously as the Brits, outside of tea ceremony. It easily can be quite hot!
Regarding my Ukrainian bad tea day: I think the reason Slavic tea can get that hot is because the original technology used to heat the water -- before the days of electricity -- was completely different. Brits (and by extension North American colonists) had an open fire that they put the kettle on top of. I assume the Japanese do something similar. But Slavs used to use a samovar, which is just a fancy term for a tank of water with a pipe through the middle jammed full of burning tinder. The water absorbs *all* of the heat from the fire, not just what goes up top, and inside a sealed tank it can get to a pretty vigorous boil without evaporating at all fast. So piping hot in a samovar means pretty damn hot, as in 'kind of unusual to be boiling it that hard in a kettle'.
So I guess even when they stopped using samovars they (and some of their descendants) got used to the idea that their tea water has to be that hot.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 11:58:48 PMLike I said, even severely flawed as it is, this fic is extremely thought-provoking and pushed me to try to figure out what my own perspective on these characters is -- i.e. I didn't just think it was flawed, I was curious to know why I thought it was flawed. I guess Brian didn't get that benefit out of it since he already has a clear picture of Haruhi in his head, and he just immediately sees all of the places where your portrayal diverges in ways that he finds unsatisfactory.
Not to harp on it too much, but the feeling I get from The Coin is:
"Haruhi is a sociopath who pretends all of the character growth from the novels, but now that we can see from her PoV, we realize it's just a mask."
Haruhi's irreverence and inability to show concern for others would be about right for just after Sigh, but this Haruhi grates because she doesn't recall the lessons that Dissapearance Haruhi has learned, or that the Haruhi who made Kyon chocolate for valentines day did. The Haruhi that wants Kyon to call her on the phone is replaced with one who seems to just be an avatar for her intelligence and powers.
So, Muprhid, based on earlier comments, and hoping this isn't too critical:
It seems to me that the plot existed before considering how the characters would actually work with it (based on your reaction to my comments on your initial draft of the prologue). Moreover, the plot is about Haruhi's powers more than the character, and that's the order that the considerations were addressed in the story. At least, that's how it feels.
I'm
guessing you want some 'Haruhi explores the universe and has strange journeys and grows from them', and for this character, if this were set immediately after Sigh, then I'd say you were doing a great job.
Otherwise, looking at how (I feel) Haruhi's character has to be twisted to make this all work + the wall-bangers of Poor Communication Kills (seriously, these people are so much more genre savvy than that)....
Do you think another approach (restructuring the story somehow) might work? TBH, the only way I could see this whole thing working out to any degree is if Kyon were removed from the picture somehow. Then you don't need to justify him being an idiot and not saying anything, or have to justify Haruhi considering Kyon knowing about the supernatural as a betrayal, and him being John Smith as anything else.
He's just out of town for whatever reason, and can come back/be dragged back to save the day.
Anyway; only ideas ... I don't want to keep you from writing your story or say it needs to be redone from the ground up, just suggesting some alternate views that may highlight the differences between our viewpoints; ways I could see these same plot points being delivered that wouldn't grate against my understanding of the novels.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 11:58:48 PMI think the first two chapters were really snappy and the rest of the fic is in the doldrums because after the initial setup you're filling up space throwing contrived problems at someone who, logically speaking, should be much better at handling them. None of these problems and misunderstandings seem to be essential to the ideas you're presenting. For example Haruhi could have just gone and saved the stadium, while still hating Asakura for forcing her into, say, using her powers faster than she felt ready to develop them, so that theme is still examined.
Looking back on this....
Considering Haruhi's usual double-standards and intelligence, I think there's a pretty clear line between 'being a psychotic bitch who decides to create chaos because the boy she aknowledged was right to do so shot her down last night, and then hitting Taniguchi with lightning for whining about it' (and, sorry, that is exactly what Haruhi did; the rewrite makes her 'do it anyway' stance
worse, and continues to hilight the 'Haruhi/Kyon communication is worthless' (which will make 'But she will listen to 'John Smith'' a
particularly bitter pill to swallow later) sense that this story gives). Erg. No, sorry, that still bothers me.
Anyway. There's a very, very huge gap between 'being a psycho and almost killing someone because she doesn't want to listen to them' and 'stopping some obviously supernatural bullshit from killing 13k people in the first place'.
In retrospect, even
after Mori's emotional beatdown, the fact that Haruhi actually didn't even try to help felt very, very wrong. I tried to justify it to myself the last time by saying 'Haruhi's desire for it to end summoned Yuki', but.... Anyway, that leads to the next issue:
I cannot see why any of these characters would consent to allow the IDSE to talk to Haruhi. At all.
Once Haruhi's brought into the loop, I cannot understand how she's willing to totally dismiss the repeated attempted murder of Kyon. Assuming that this Haruhi doesn't like Kyon, it's still just as bad that she's ignoring the potential murder of, what, 13,000 people? And she accepts an offer from someone she has every reason not to trust, over someone she claims is a friend (she vaccilates on that so much it gives me a headache, though)?
Kyon should be fighting his hardest against it, not just going along placidly; I really meant those points about Kyon threatening to destroy the IDSE for doing anything to Yuki. It just feels ... out of character and forced (yet again, another instance of the characters not resolving issues that they could -- which in turn makes me slowly resent the plot because it doesn't feel like it fits naturally) to have him allow this plot to continue as he has.
Okay. Plot is that Haruhi goes with Ryouko. Foreshadow that Ryouko's going to get horrible powers and be a big, nasty evil later, based on Haruhi's innocent misunderstanding (except, as things are in the current draft, it's neither innocent, or a misunderstanding).
This setup would have worked great if: Ryouko hadn't shown herself to be a psycho, and Kyon didn't know this whole thing was going on in the first place.
Then, Ryouko can be your villain by just showing up and sneakily lying to Haruhi (hey, Mori did, so why not?) and then lead her on grand adventures, get her cooperation, and maybe spend 3-4 chapters developing Haruhi into the character you portray, that won't trust her friends. Now it'd have the justification of Ryouko driving that wedge there instead of ignoring the novel's development, you still get to explore the angles (I think) your plot is aiming to cover, and etc. etc. etc. while Kyon's ... stuck at the bedside of a dying relative in the country, or something plausible to keep him uninvolved.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 11:58:48 PM@Brian: Wait, you got drunk *because* of the fic? I guess I had you pegged correctly (ever since 'Downfall') as someone who really takes this stuff to heart.
Yes. This interpretation of Haruhi did hit me that hard. I kept trying to like her, but ... there's just no (visible) positive interactions between Haruhi and almost anyone else -- only irreverent video game references in the middle of soul-crushing despair. Ugh. Sorry. If Haruhi were more likable, it might work; I get the sense of a much, much bleaker and darker world than I think Muprhid intends to display.
At least it was decent rum.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 11:58:48 PMSo I guess even when they stopped using samovars they (and some of their descendants) got used to the idea that their tea water has to be that hot.
Interesting.
Let me explain myself a little bit in regard to this chapter as written and the story as a whole. Overall, what I'd hoped to do with this story was bring Haruhi to a realization: that the search for strange beings or possessing supernatural powers wouldn't make her happy. In this story, what's given Haruhi the ability to live in and interact with the normal world is the idea, however correct or not, that the people around her are believers on some level like she is. (Point of contention: is this a plausible interpretation of canon?) In particular, though, while Kyon is the only member of the brigade who can ever question Haruhi or put up resistance, he's actually the one most like this ideal, as evidenced by his choice in Disappearance and his acceptance of the chaos around Haruhi in general by this time).
I will admit that, in response to feedback, I've been continually working and reworking the outlines for this story and that that lack of steadiness has lent itself to some logical blunders. In particular, there was an outline where Asakura contacted Haruhi before she was told about everything and without making herself a clear enemy, leading to the journey to the alien world in a way that makes a lot more sense. As written here, it doesn't because that scene at the stadium (which in turn gave contrast to Mori's scene before that) didn't happen there. So I admit there are great mistakes in what's written here, and that's why I'm rewriting the chapter to potentially a much different angle.
Even so, I want to elaborate on the angle I had been shooting for: that Haruhi would resist the idea of her friends in the brigade being time-travelers, espers, and aliens becuase that means she doesn't really know them and they're not really her friends. Why do Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato keep Haruhi in the dark? For Koizumi, we get only vague theories and conjecture---that Haruhi might inadvertently make mass numbers of people espers or aliens or some such, even if this flies in the face of the "Haruhi's subconscious will." That is, if she really wanted that, wouldn't she have done it already? But I admit, any appeal to that notion is extremely fuzzy, so let's ignore that. Consider the others. Asahina can't even voice the time-travelers' reasons for not revealing themselves to Haruhi, but we can only infer it to be similar to Koizumi's fear. Same with Nagato. If we accept that reasoning at face value, then it is succinctly put as this: the various factions didn't trust Haruhi to act responsibly. They didn't trust her as a person. Even if they do now (or if they're forced to trust her to protect themselves from Asakura or Mori or what-have-you), it means they didn't before. You can argue that Haruhi should be more understanding of that, but I chose the other route. What's going through her head here? That Kyon didn't trust her, that Yuki didn't trust her, that all their interactions have been superficial and fake. And that's just two of them. Bring Asahina and Koizumi into the mix, and even the thought just terrifies her. That was the intended tragedy of this chapter: to stave off those overwhelming feelings of loss, Haruhi would convince herself of something she knew to be false, a self-made delusion. Haruhi's whole image of Nagato is a delusion!
So, what do I see as the big problems with this chapter, based on the feedback given?
-The beginning doesn't make sense. At minimum, Haruhi should consciously recognize that it was Nagato she saw. Whether she talks herself into believing otherwise, for the basic reasons mentioned above, is another matter entirely.
-That Haruhi's characterization is unintentionally much harsher than I intended. To some extent, I think I must simply disagree with Brian. I feel, Brian, that comparatively speaking you want Haruhi to behave too much like a saint. I did not feel Haruhi's remarks toward Kyon were that heated, but since we've disagreed on this before, I'm prepared to recognize that this is simply something I need to strike a better balance with. Nevertheless, in doing that, I'm still very concerned about finding ways to have Haruhi behave in her signature way, with a commanding presence and with expectations that sometimes seem out of touch with what reality will bear, among other things.
-The logic of the Asakura matter and the reasons behind going to the Piggy planet are just utterly dumb and need extensive work. For my part, I didn't think Asakura abducting Haruhi was that big of a deal, where now I recognize it would need at least some resistance, if it's not purged altogether (which it probably will be).
There are other minor issues. I didn't think the Entity would be capable of real time travel, hence Asakura calls upon "Beckett" (that's not her real name!) to take Haruhi back to the present. That, in turn, was motivated by physical considerations: I didn't want the Entity to be capable of faster-than-light travel, regardless of how synchronization works, since FTL is functionally equivalent to time travel anyway. At any rate, "Beckett" has her own motives, and leaving Haruhi in the future gives her more reason to confront the difference between who she thought her friends were (in this case, Asahina) and reality. That would've been the starting point for the next chapter.
Whew. That was a bit too much. At any rate, based on what's already been said, I think part of why this chapter failed (aside from the grave logical inconsistencies) is the perception that Haruhi should be much more well-adjusted than I've depicted her, that she just wouldn't talk herself up with delusions or total misrepresentations of reality, and to an extent, I can understand that criticism and I think it's fair. What that means for the future of this story I can't really say because then it leaves me wanting for a consistent emotional angle to portray Haruhi through this time and events the best play off of that. I have...some ideas, but I admit they're not well-developed, and it may mean that the story has just undergone too much change and revision to be cohesive.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PM
Let me explain myself a little bit in regard to this chapter as written and the story as a whole. Overall, what I'd hoped to do with this story was bring Haruhi to a realization: that the search for strange beings or possessing supernatural powers wouldn't make her happy. In this story, what's given Haruhi the ability to live in and interact with the normal world is the idea, however correct or not, that the people around her are believers on some level like she is. (Point of contention: is this a plausible interpretation of canon?) In particular, though, while Kyon is the only member of the brigade who can ever question Haruhi or put up resistance, he's actually the one most like this ideal, as evidenced by his choice in Disappearance and his acceptance of the chaos around Haruhi in general by this time).
Like most of Haruhi's characterization, it's plausible if set before Disappearance.
Your story misses some events that clearly contradict your supposition -- most specifically, Haruhi does enjoy a completely normal friendship with Sakanaka. Even from the athletic competition just six months prior, Haruhi had grown enough to admit she enjoyed it (and being popular among the girl's team, (you know, those regular people?)), unlike her backhanded dismissal of it from before filming the movie.
Haruhi is under no illusions that the sports team is on any such quest. She may have thought of Sakanaka in those terms (which was before the athletic meet), but she became normal friends
after the 'ghost' investigation.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PMEven so, I want to elaborate on the angle I had been shooting for: that Haruhi would resist the idea of her friends in the brigade being time-travelers, espers, and aliens becuase that means she doesn't really know them and they're not really her friends. Why do Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato keep Haruhi in the dark? For Koizumi, we get only vague theories and conjecture---that Haruhi might inadvertently make mass numbers of people espers or aliens or some such, even if this flies in the face of the "Haruhi's subconscious will." That is, if she really wanted that, wouldn't she have done it already? But I admit, any appeal to that notion is extremely fuzzy, so let's ignore that. Consider the others. Asahina can't even voice the time-travelers' reasons for not revealing themselves to Haruhi, but we can only infer it to be similar to Koizumi's fear. Same with Nagato. If we accept that reasoning at face value, then it is succinctly put as this: the various factions didn't trust Haruhi to act responsibly.
Canon-quibble: Kyon
always has trusted her that much, or he wouldn't have tried to tell her at the end the original melancholy/start of Sigh. Even Koizumi remarks on that trust in Boredom.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PMThey didn't trust her as a person. Even if they do now (or if they're forced to trust her to protect themselves from Asakura or Mori or what-have-you), it means they didn't before. You can argue that Haruhi should be more understanding of that, but I chose the other route. What's going through her head here? That Kyon didn't trust her,
*mildly enraged*
Kyon tried to tell her.
Every fic that has tried to sell 'Haruhi is angry because she didn't believe Kyon for telling the truth' stokes a flame of hate within me.
But your fic has Haruhi
knowing the supposed justification for people not telling her such things (thanks, Mori)! She even agreed with it not just once, but twice -- once was the (highly notable) one time she actually listened to Kyon in the entire story, after she accidentally summoned him.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PMthat Yuki didn't trust her, that all their interactions have been superficial and fake. And that's just two of them. Bring Asahina and Koizumi into the mix, and even the thought just terrifies her. That was the intended tragedy of this chapter: to stave off those overwhelming feelings of loss, Haruhi would convince herself of something she knew to be false, a self-made delusion. Haruhi's whole image of Nagato is a delusion!
By her
own choice, since she
didn't believe Kyon. She's now judging them based on
her decision. She's lashing out at Kyon/Yuki for something she did herself. That's, uh, not sympathetic no matter how you spin it.
So, it's okay for Haruhi to have powers suddenly, but not Nagato?
Look ... I do get where the hurt and indignation could come from. Haruhi's a seventeen year old girl in a very confusing situation.
But the setup should be one of massive reassurance, not utter betrayal. It's another communication issue where they're just not saying the right things -- how can Haruhi stay upset with Yuki for the IDSE telling her not to speak to her about it? Koizumi, Mikuru -- all three of them have superiors that ordered them not to.
Will they do this? No, that would prevent your plot from moving forward.
I think Haruhi's indignation would work if the stakes hadn't been established at 'People will die if you screw around'. Before that reveal? Haruhi's entirely justified.
After that reveal? The second the stadium's out of sight, Haruhi instantly loses all regard for 13000 lives.
Anyway. Haruhi's more intelligent than that. If she's so unsettled here, in this situation I think her answer to Ryouko would pretty much be, "Fuck off; I got to keep the Brigade together. All of you have some
serious 'splainin' to do!"
I wouldn't mind it so much if the drama didn't appear to come from bad communication choices -- the fact that Kyon now
knows Haruhi considers this a betrayal and chooses
not to reveal the trump card and clear that up before things worsen, for example. And Haruhi not wanting to accept it, again, plausible
before lives are at stake.
After that....
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PM-That Haruhi's characterization is unintentionally much harsher than I intended. To some extent, I think I must simply disagree with Brian. I feel, Brian, that comparatively speaking you want Haruhi to behave too much like a saint. I did not feel Haruhi's remarks toward Kyon were that heated, but since we've disagreed on this before, I'm prepared to recognize that this is simply something I need to strike a better balance with. Nevertheless, in doing that, I'm still very concerned about finding ways to have Haruhi behave in her signature way, with a commanding presence and with expectations that sometimes seem out of touch with what reality will bear, among other things.
Haruhi's remarks don't have a whole lot of heat, but in the entire fic, she's never (I reiterate:
NEVER) shown kind thoughts towards anyone (who she should consider her friends; she is nice to strangers ... which would make sense if this came up after the betrayal reveal, but here feels like it's establishing Haruhi's never really trusted/been that close with them anyway). This is why I regard your portrayal of her as a sociopath. She's attracted to Kyon physically, doesn't respect him or show him kindness, and her greatest desire is to ... make him think differently?
I'm not saying that Haruhi has to be a saint. Actually, her behavior would be 100% fine if her
thoughts weren't unilaterally, "Man, I can't stand Kyon, but I guess I'm forced to admit I'm attracted to him. Too bad he sucks so much."
She just need to not be a complete monster to pull this off, and you'd be amazed at the amount of milage having Haruhi think positive things (and say mean ones) would get you. Show us that dichotomy, that she's divided and (maybe) intentionally keeping Kyon at a certain distance much of the time. Make her hurt and sympathetic, not petty and sociopathic.
Admittedly, your use of Kyon's narrative trick is going to make that ... difficult. Possibly impossible, because I can never tell, "Is she randomly snarking on Kyon? Or is that her actual genuine belief? One of those is meh, one of those is terrible."
When she only shows negatives, that's all I pick up. I happen to remember all of those petty insults/the total lack of respect, and add them up. Haruhi is capable of kindness, and does care about her friends. It's just the death of a thousand paper cuts.
You still portray her at the 'Sigh' mark, where she's only
just learning that people aren't things.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PMThere are other minor issues. I didn't think the Entity would be capable of real time travel, hence Asakura calls upon "Beckett" (that's not her real name!) to take Haruhi back to the present. That, in turn, was motivated by physical considerations: I didn't want the Entity to be capable of faster-than-light travel, regardless of how synchronization works, since FTL is functionally equivalent to time travel anyway. At any rate, "Beckett" has her own motives, and leaving Haruhi in the future gives her more reason to confront the difference between who she thought her friends were (in this case, Asahina) and reality. That would've been the starting point for the next chapter.
Aside:
If that character is future Haruhi, then nevermind, but if it's a further-future instance of Mikuru, that's kind of a bummer for Mikuru.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 20, 2011, 02:47:30 PMWhew. That was a bit too much. At any rate, based on what's already been said, I think part of why this chapter failed (aside from the grave logical inconsistencies) is the perception that Haruhi should be much more well-adjusted than I've depicted her, that she just wouldn't talk herself up with delusions or total misrepresentations of reality, and to an extent, I can understand that criticism and I think it's fair. What that means for the future of this story I can't really say because then it leaves me wanting for a consistent emotional angle to portray Haruhi through this time and events the best play off of that. I have...some ideas, but I admit they're not well-developed, and it may mean that the story has just undergone too much change and revision to be cohesive.
Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean you actually have to listen to a word I say.
You may find it's easier to ignore me. If that's most constructive, then I'm totally fine with that.
I see only that my commentary is disruptive, and I don't like your character. Realistically ... might you be better served by not giving me that much credence? Your story can be just fine without my input (and will have to be, concerning future chapters, but anyway).
I'm loud and I got an opinion, but I'm just one voice.
Also, should point out:
In Sigh, Nagato moves faster than light within an atmosphere, because it's the only way to intercept a blast headed at Kyon (Mikuru BEEEEEAM~!). According to Kyon, anyway. Could she have moved at a 'mere', say, 80C and still intercepted the laser? Presumably, but given that....
I didn't realize until just now that Haruhi was dealing with the effects of relativity and that's why she was 'x' years in the future.
In Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, Nagato outright states that the IDSE can transcend time, they just think the way humans do it is clumsy. Nagato can't do it herself, but she also says that time travel is 'not very hard'. Presumably, with permission, Nagato or Ryouko could get the IDSE to let them time travel (just like Nagato set the stasis field) the exact same way.
Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2011, 05:27:17 PM
In Sigh, Nagato moves faster than light within an atmosphere, because it's the only way to intercept a blast headed at Kyon (Mikuru BEEEEEAM~!). According to Kyon, anyway. Could she have moved at a 'mere', say, 80C and still intercepted the laser? Presumably, but given that....
Not feeling sure of this one, but an alternate theory is that Nagato might have noticed something weird going on with Mikuru's eye several microseconds
before it fired. Considering that her job is observing alterations made by Haruhi to her immediate environment, it wouldn't be implausible that she would notice it happening quickly enough to react and move in front of Kyon.
In which case, Kyon just saw her blocking a laser and jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Nagato: "There was not enough time to shield."
I would expect she can do that faster than she could (for example) point to the sky and say, "Look!" to Mikuru (as that also would have addressed the issue), so she didn't have that much warning.
Yeah that sort of josses it. Although not enough time doesn't necessarily mean 'zero time'. It could be that she needed to be in front of Kyon to shield, too, so she had to move anyways and what she actually meant is that there was no time left to move+shield.
I'll drop this now because I don't care either way. I see no reason why the IDSE shouldn't know how to perform faster-than-light travel, for one thing.
Well, maybe not jossed. None of this is really stated, and all of it comes from an unreliable narrator.
I haven't commented here much, since I've also been writing a story along similar lines (Haruhi discovering the secrets around her on her own), also from her PoV, and I've felt like commenting here would be a sort of conflict of interest. At Brian's encouragement, though, and after reading some of his commentary, there are a couple of points I'd like to toss in here about Haruhi herself.
Note here that I haven't read much past chapter 1; early scans of the fic gave me a very negative impression of Haruhi, and since I haven't really considered myself in a position to comment, I haven't read it. The issues that Brian's brought up are fairly common in representations of Haruhi, though, and another perspective might be helpful.
On the idea of using Kyon's PoV for Haruhi: This concept, while it might seem to fit the style of the original novels, doesn't work well at all for Haruhi herself. Kyon is a rather dispassionate person - he hangs back and watches, doesn't do much, and makes snarky comments about the people and events around him. The only time we really see him roused to any kind of passion is during Sigh, and it's a pretty notable event for just that reason - the novels give the impression that he's really hard to get riled up, given the things he goes through without becoming seriously perturbed.
In these senses, Haruhi is almost diametrically opposed to Kyon. She's highly passionate and cannot resist getting involved or trying to take control of any situation she comes across. While it's possible that in narrating a story she'd throw in the occasional sarcasm, for the most part she's going to be fired up and excited about things, or obviously bored if there's nothing to be excited about. If she gets distracted (the way Kyon can at times with his asides), she'll be just as energetic about pursuing the bunny trail as she would her original goal - or she'll immediately dismiss it as unimportant, since it's distracting her from her real target.
By the same token, too, she doesn't stew. Judging from some of Brian's commentary above, she's been angry and distrustful of the rest of the Brigade. I won't make a judgement as to whether this is justified or not since I haven't read the story, but if it is, something that a lot of people seem to miss with Haruhi is that she doesn't fume or rant - or more accurately, she doesn't -just- fume or rant, but she'll attempt to take control of the situation and -make- things better. If it's something she can control directly, she'll do so; if it's not something she can find an angle of attack with, she tends to make closed spaces - which are just another form of attempting to seize control of the situation and make things better, albeit very drastic attempts.
The sociopathic tendencies have been fairly well addressed, but I'll say that this was the biggest turn-off for me early in the fic - seeing Haruhi react to what she'd done to Taniguchi not with the understandable horror and shock that almost anyone would show after killing or severely injuring, even if unintentionally, but with almost a clinical detachment and analysis of the situation. This is probably compounded by the fact that she's using Kyon's dispassionate narration style, which distances herself even further from her usual passionate personality - to the extent that she appears to show no kind of remorse or regret at all for what she's just done, and makes her end up looking like a complete monster.
Again, since I haven't read most of the fic itself at this point, these points may or may not be useful to you. From discussion with Brian, though, I think keeping these in consideration for a possible rewrite or large-scale readjustment (or future use in trying to write Haruhi's PoV, if nothing else) might help.
Best of luck.
Quote from: BrianCanon-quibble: Kyon always has trusted her that much, or he wouldn't have tried to tell her at the end the original melancholy/start of Sigh. Even Koizumi remarks on that trust in Boredom.
Yes, Kyon trusted her enough to try telling her what Nagato, Koizumi, and Asahina are. But it's clear he thinks telling her about her powers is a risky proposition, one he's nominally prepared to go for if the stakes are high (e.g. to save Nagato), but all other things being equal, I take this tacitly as evidence even
he isn't real thrilled about the idea of Haruhi knowing about her powers. At least, he's uneasy enough about it to keep it under wraps.
In writing this story, I tried to strike a balance on that last point. On the one hand, Kyon would be relieved to think Haruhi was figuring things out for herself and he wouldn't have to bend over backwards to keep things from her. On the other, it still makes him uneasy. I deliberately tried, however successfully, to give his actions early on that conflict.
Quote from: BrianI'm not saying that Haruhi has to be a saint. Actually, her behavior would be 100% fine if her thoughts weren't unilaterally, "Man, I can't stand Kyon, but I guess I'm forced to admit I'm attracted to him. Too bad he sucks so much."
In reading back, I can understand how you read her that way. As you said, though, Kyon doesn't get riled up or excited too easily. That was what I was really going for--that Haruhi really
wants to see that kind of enthusiasm, that kind of real joy or excitement from him which is so hard to evoke. What does she do here? She thinks of him as stuffy. She thinks he doesn't take things seriously, that he has no attachment and thus she can't relate to him fully, exactly because she rides her successes and feels her disappointments so keenly (even if, when she does fail in some way, she gets right back up with the energy we know she has). To touch on something else, Haruhi here is excited by the idea of really impressing Kyon and getting a rise out of him for several reasons, but in particular to share a feeling with him. Forget the attraction angle for a minute. If she can impart that sense of wonder and awe to someone has hard to move as Kyon, that's worth it.
That she also should treasure him for how his presence has forced her to better herself would make that all the better. I admit, that's an aspect I haven't played up. And if it's that lack of balance that's the problem, then that's something I can comprehend.
Quote from: HalbaradThe sociopathic tendencies have been fairly well addressed, but I'll say that this was the biggest turn-off for me early in the fic - seeing Haruhi react to what she'd done to Taniguchi not with the understandable horror and shock that almost anyone would show after killing or severely injuring, even if unintentionally, but with almost a clinical detachment and analysis of the situation. This is probably compounded by the fact that she's using Kyon's dispassionate narration style, which distances herself even further from her usual passionate personality - to the extent that she appears to show no kind of remorse or regret at all for what she's just done, and makes her end up looking like a complete monster.
I understand your reluctance to comment thus far, Hal. I'll only say that I think the entire opening of that chapter, through the time Haruhi leaves the hospital where Taniguchi was taken, is in my mind a fair mix of Haruhi trying to cope (by distancing herself from her emotions) and alternately succumbing to the strain of them (e.g. when she resists being examined because she's horrified the nurses would spend even a second with her when it's Taniguchi who needs their help). That chapter as a whole lays on the guilt pretty thick.
At any rate, it is apparent to me that chapter four as written is does not have an approach, tone, or direction beneficial to the future of the story. Toward the goal of remedying that, I've been working on the rewrite, and this is what I have so far. Posting partial work is, I admit, something I've not done before, but I'd like to give some idea of what I've taken away from the discussion so far.
The first two revised scenes are below.
"Yuki!"
In the aftermath of Asakura's attack, the stadium was quiet—a lot quieter than fifty thousand people ever should be. Maybe it was the shock of what'd happened. I doubt most people could even start to understand what Asakura had done. Hell, I didn't understand what that show of lights meant or how she'd done it. Was she something like me?
My gut clenched. Just the possibility of being anything like her should make anyone sick. I put the thought out of my mind. Someone else stopped Asakura. Someone else used Mikuru-chan's cap to do it. I knew that well; I held the hat in my hands.
And I knew who I'd seen walking away on the next aisle.
"Yuki, stop!"
I know she heard me. It was too quiet. She couldn't have missed it. Why won't you answer me, Yuki?
I started to go after her, back to the concession alley, but there was a scream, a commotion. The aisles started to flood with people, scampering to leave their seats. It was like, all of the sudden, all the fans woke from their stupor, and I wasn't halfway up the section stair before I was surrounded, bumped, and jostled from every direction. What could I do to change that? "Hey, everyone, stop!" I could yell. "You have to let me through, so I can find out why this cute little bookworm girl was on the wrong side of the stadium when this other invisible girl was speared in the shoulder, okay?" I may be commanding as a brigade chief, but getting a few hundred people to listen to you is a different matter!
At least, if you don't have powers. I could picture Asakura grinning with the idea—that if I did something subtle, something no one would notice, all these people might stop and listen and get out of the way. I'll be honest: that smile of hers scares the shit out of me. I don't want to give her what she wants.
But, on the other hand, I can't stand by and be powerless. I can't just listen to Mori-san. I stood around, forcing myself to do nothing. I shouldn't have hesitated. I should've set out to walk the fine line.
I know all that because I saw what made the spectators run from their seats. Most of them were unhurt, it looked like. They'd floating out of their seats far too slowly to be in danger. I imagine you could hold yourself down and be fine—if you had something to hold on to. If you were unlucky enough to be on the field or in an aisle—there are no handrails or anything like that, not at Kōshien...
That's why I should've done things differently. I was afraid of myself. I didn't want to give in to her, but I ended up doing just that. I didn't give her everything, but she got the next best thing.
In the next aisle over, some people had stopped, forming a circle and kneeling down. I couldn't see what they were crowding around, but I could guess. I was torn over it. I hoped, on the one hand, that those passers-by might be able to help that person, to bring him back so the paramedics, whenever they got here, would have a fighting chance to save him.
And on the other, I hoped he'd gone quickly, so Asakura would've missed the light in his eyes going out.
They stopped the game after the incident, leaving it unfinished in the bottom of the seventh. All around the outside of the stadium, blue and red lights flashed. Police officers gathered at each gate and stair, ushering those who could walk outside. Paramedics pushed their way through the crowd and carried out those who couldn't. Most people couldn't wait to make a beeline for the station, but I cut across and around the stadium's perimeter. Yuki should still have been around there somewhere. Kyon and the others—they'd wait for me. I tucked the other hat under my arm and started dailing my phone.
"Haruhi?"
A siren blared as an ambulance motored off. I covered one ear with my hand and pressed the phone to the other. "Kyon?" I began. "Can you hear me? Is everyone all right?"
"We're fine; everyone's fine. What happened? Where did you run off to?"
I winced. Just what should I say? That I'd found an invisible girl in the toilet and chased after her? Okay, maybe that's a little more believable ever since I started doing impossible things myself, but then I'd have to explain it all—why Asakura was trying to manipulate me, why I didn't act to save everyone sooner. Because I was stubborn, because I was scared, I made someone else do it for me.
Someone like Yuki. That's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know about Yuki.
"Haruhi? Are you still there?"
"Is Yuki with you?" I asked.
"Nagato? Yeah, she's here."
"When did she get back?"
"Just now? Look, we're outside by stair twenty-two. Tsuruya-san is getting a car for us since the bus's bound to be packed."
"Then thank Tsuruya-san for me. Tell her we'll do ten thousand hours of service for her in return!"
" 'Ten thousand'?" he cried. "And what kind of service?"
"But more importantly," I said, "don't let Yuki out of your sight. That's an order! You understand?"
"What's all this about?"
"And Kyon, I expect if you so much as skinned your elbow from what happened today, you would tell me. A good brigade member doesn't hide any injuries from the chief. You're not hurt at all, are you?"
"No."
"Not even a scratch?"
"I was worried about you, too, Haruhi."
My ears went a little warm. Kyon, I'm glad you can't see me right now.
"I'm really all right. We all are."
Good, that's really good. If any of you were hurt, it'd be worse. I know that's horrible to say out loud or write in black and white, but it's true, isn't it? No one means as much to you as your family and friends. I've always had family, of course, but for a long time, I thought anyone I met at school or in clubs—anyone I could possibly make friends with—wouldn't be interesting, wouldn't be worth knowing.
That's all changed in the last year. My friends were at this baseball game with me. They don't have to be time-travelers, aliens, espers, or sliders to be interesting. Mikuru-chan is adorable. Koizumi-kun's wise and agreeable. Tsuruya-san is like another burst of energy whenever she's around. And yes, as much as I nag on him, Kyon is Kyon—my dose of reality, of honesty that no one else can give.
That just leaves Yuki, really, and if she is the person I saw walking away from me as Asakura disappeared—no, there's no if about it, I know she is—then the Yuki I know is just the beginning.
I stayed on the line with Kyon until I caught up to him and the others at our entry gate. The weather had turned a bit cool for a summer evening; I spotted Mikuru-chan with a blanket draped over her shoulders, the one we'd brought to protect from the sun. Even though Kyon was on the line with me and Koizumi-kun was looking over the crowd, too, it was Tsuruya-san who spotted me first.
"Yo, Haru-nyan, you're okay? That's a big relief after all this trouble. I feel like it's my fault, getting all of you involved in this."
Like you could've guessed a psychotic alien would attack today? Not a chance. I told Tsuruya-san we'd be glad to tag along with her, anytime, as long as she'd have us. We still had a summer retreat planned, didn't we?
"That's the spirit!" she cried. "At times like this, you have to remember to treasure the days you have, you know."
Truer words have never been said. That's why I watched the sixth member of our group as we waited for Tsuruya-san's car. Yuki had parked herself beside Koizumi-kun like a statue, reading from her hardcover like nothing had happened.
"Well?"
I jolted. Kyon, don't sneak up on me like that!
"If you're watching Nagato, does that mean I still have to?"
"The order has yet to be rescinded," I said. "To disregard it would be wanton dereliction of duty!"
"That armband says 'Brigade Chief,' not 'Minister of Defense.' "
Yuki's eye wandered from the pages of the green hardcover. That's no good; we'd only spook her like this. I pulled Kyon aside.
"Where are we—"
"Shh!" I looked around him. Maybe Yuki was listening, but if she were, she didn't show it. Could she have super hearing? Well, if she did, she'd already know I'd spotted her. She hadn't done anything about it. Either she wasn't going to, even if I told Kyon...
Or I'd be ready, just in case—more ready than I had been with Asakura. As impossible as it is to imagine anything like that coming from Yuki...
Well, that's why someone needs to know.
"Kyon," I began, "you're going to have a hard time believing this, but just listen, okay? I'm not making this up. When I went to the toilet, after that woman fell, someone was waiting for me. It was—"
"Asakura."
Yeah, it was Asa—wait, you're not supposed to know that yet! I didn't tell you!
"It's all right," he said. "Nagato told me everything."
Yuki told him everything. Yuki, who wouldn't stop for me or even meet my eyes, told Kyon exactly what happened? Why would she do that? Wouldn't it be a shock for him, for everyone, to see Yuki running off with Mikuru-chan's hat with no explanation for why, and then all that...
Unless Kyon knew what Yuki was all along.
"Haruhi, look at me," he said. "Take a minute. Take a breath."
"What is she?" I whispered. "A superhuman? Genetically altered? Is that what Asakura is, too? That light—they're sliders, aren't they? They took us to another dimension!"
"They're not sliders; they're aliens."
An alien. Yuki's an alien. She's some sort of thing, a creature bottled into human form. Gods, if I hadn't seen that pointed metal spear sticking through Asakura's shoulder, I don't think I'd believe it now.
But what's more amazing than all that is the person who's tellling me this. Kyon, of all people, would be the last person I'd ever expect to have a secret life with aliens. How can this be true, Kyon? How do you know all this?
I asked him, and his brow furrowed. He checked over his shoulder, at Yuki and the others. Mikuru-chan and Tsuruya-san were talking. Yuki was reading her book. Koizumi-kun had a relaxed expression, standing between the three of them. At last, with a heavy breath, Kyon faced me again.
"Haruhi," he said, "what do you remember about Tanabata four years ago?"
You'd be better off asking me what I don't remember, Kyon. It was a muggy night. The skies were clear. All the preparations I'd made in advance. I'd gone to one of the teachers during lunch, asking about a math problem, and swiped the gate key he kept on a neck chain. After that, I'd headed to the athletic storeroom, moving what I needed—a line marker, a cart, and some lime—to the back, where no one would look. That's because if I'd tried to steal a key from my gym teacher and got caught, I'd be in trouble. He used to do pro wrestling, you know, and he made it clear that any lack of discipline on our part would be punished with a demonstration of his old moves. I always thought that was pretty fishy, probably illegal even, but since no one else had been crazy enough to find out, I didn't want to be first.
Ever since I'd had that weird dream the night before, I'd started drawing up the message I wanted to send. If there were aliens out there, watching us, it could easily take them dozens or hundreds of years to see my drawing and send a response. They might not even realize it's there until well after the light from Earth that night had passed them by. At any rate, I figured it had to be done right the first time. Radio signals and skyscrapers only showed them our technology, our knowledge. Only a few people were actually trying to get messages to the stars, and who better to aim that message to on the seventh day of the seventh month than the weaver princess and her cow-herding lover in the sky?
In hindsight, I think my message was received, just not by whom I expected to get it. I was fully prepared to draw it all myself, to make corrections as I stepped back and gained perspective. If I had to, I'd take all night to get it perfect, but instead, I had help. There was a stranger at the gate that night, carrying his sister on his back. That's the only thing I don't remember as clearly as I'd like. In the moon- and starlight, I never saw his face that well, but we talked for some time. He was like normal people. He saw no reason aliens, time-travelers, and espers shouldn't be everywhere. He said he was from North High, and he said there were people there who sent messages to the stars, too.
After that night, I thought, if I went by North High from time to time, I might see him. Even if I wasn't sure if his face, I should recognize him, right? By the way he walked? By who he hung out with and how he acted?
I never found him, though. Maybe if I'd known more about him, I could've, but I didn't. I just knew he had an older sister, that he went to North High, and that, on that night, he went by an alias—a pathetically obvious one at that. It was a name that shouldn't have meant anything.
"You went to East Middle School to draw lines on the ground, didn't you?"
A lot of people know that. It's not a secret.
"But what no one knows, what you didn't tell a soul, is that someone helped you," said Kyon. "You found him, a North High student, and you pressed him into drawing that diagram for you while you watched. I'm right, aren't I, Haruhi? You remember like it was yesterday: how he called out to you, after you were finished, and asked you to never forget his name."
And I didn't! I couldn't! I searched all over for him, yet nothing came of it. I dreamed of the day he'd find me and ask if I remembered that summer night.
But now it's you who's telling me this, Kyon? How can this be? We're in the same year. If you'd been in high school then, you should've been gone before I ever came to North High. How can you tell me I've seen your face day in and day out for over a year now and never thought...
Is this why I felt you were familiar? Is this why I thought I knew you but couldn't place how or where?
"Haruhi," he whispered, "do you need me to say that name?"
No—I mean, yes—I mean—
I don't know. My heart was racing. I stared at him, studying his face. These are details I should know too well by now—the color of his eyes, the way his hair falls around his ears. They are like that person's features, aren't they? If I could remember more clearly...
I guess you need to tell me, then. I need to hear it to be absolutely sure. Tell me the name you used that night.
Tell me your name is John...
"And kiss her!"
Kyon and I sprang apart, my heart beating almost out of my chest. What on Earth are you talking about, Tsuruya-san?!
"What's this?" She tilted her head innocently. "I thought sure Kyon-kun and Haru-nyan were having a love-love moment. Was I wrongs?"
Quote from: Muphrid on September 21, 2011, 01:16:58 AMYes, Kyon trusted her enough to try telling her what Nagato, Koizumi, and Asahina are. But it's clear he thinks telling her about her powers is a risky proposition, one he's nominally prepared to go for if the stakes are high (e.g. to save Nagato), but all other things being equal, I take this tacitly as evidence even he isn't real thrilled about the idea of Haruhi knowing about her powers. At least, he's uneasy enough about it to keep it under wraps.
In writing this story, I tried to strike a balance on that last point. On the one hand, Kyon would be relieved to think Haruhi was figuring things out for herself and he wouldn't have to bend over backwards to keep things from her. On the other, it still makes him uneasy. I deliberately tried, however successfully, to give his actions early on that conflict.
I think I agree with what Hal generally suggests for Kyon's reasoning there; if Haruhi had been more accepting that day, he would have told her more. But she reacted badly, so he backed off, and then it wasn't until Disappearance that he realized he did have a way to reach her (and also had learned to be more reluctant about the idea).
Quote from: Muphrid on September 21, 2011, 01:16:58 AM
In reading back, I can understand how you read her that way. As you said, though, Kyon doesn't get riled up or excited too easily. That was what I was really going for--that Haruhi really wants to see that kind of enthusiasm, that kind of real joy or excitement from him which is so hard to evoke. What does she do here? She thinks of him as stuffy. She thinks he doesn't take things seriously, that he has no attachment and thus she can't relate to him fully, exactly because she rides her successes and feels her disappointments so keenly (even if, when she does fail in some way, she gets right back up with the energy we know she has). To touch on something else, Haruhi here is excited by the idea of really impressing Kyon and getting a rise out of him for several reasons, but in particular to share a feeling with him. Forget the attraction angle for a minute. If she can impart that sense of wonder and awe to someone has hard to move as Kyon, that's worth it.
I follow that, and it does make sense, except ... Haruhi's already actually achieved that with Kyon -- take for example when she got him to flirt with her after Valentines day and he told her point blank that the Brigade needed her. That is, admittedly, much more mundane than what this Haruhi desires. Your characterization has a more (still) melancholy Haruhi, who has not grown away from her supernatural ideals and searching as much (or felt a sudden desire to revisit them, maybe because it'd been so long).
Anyway. There's also the irony of the fact that even when it comes to the supernatural, Kyon's already had that happen to him. She'll probably feel really confused and robbed of an opportunity when she realizes that it's her own fault (in ... every possible way, actually).
Aside from the 'didn't trust Kyon' issue, is the fact that her powers have already made that desire a reality the day that Ryouko first attacked Kyon. So, she's got a nice goal, but thanks to her power, it's been accomplished for quite a while.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 21, 2011, 01:16:58 AMThat she also should treasure him for how his presence has forced her to better herself would make that all the better. I admit, that's an aspect I haven't played up. And if it's that lack of balance that's the problem, then that's something I can comprehend.
Anyway. The 'attraction' thing was just to underscore that it was the closest this Haruhi really telling us about a 'likable' quality in Kyon; effectively, her assesment of him was a laundry list of complaints, with a grudging admission that she's physically attracted to him (while she tries to deny it to herself). It's probably unintentional on your part, but there were other small bits that reinforced that, like Haruhi having a positive thought about the brigade in general, but still picking on Kyon.
So. Sorry again for overstating that. >_<
Quote from: Muphrid on September 21, 2011, 01:16:58 AMI understand your reluctance to comment thus far, Hal. I'll only say that I think the entire opening of that chapter, through the time Haruhi leaves the hospital where Taniguchi was taken, is in my mind a fair mix of Haruhi trying to cope (by distancing herself from her emotions) and alternately succumbing to the strain of them (e.g. when she resists being examined because she's horrified the nurses would spend even a second with her when it's Taniguchi who needs their help). That chapter as a whole lays on the guilt pretty thick.
Hmm.
My personal reason for reading through that was that Haruhi's behavior was presented as 'less horrible'. Which I found 'better', but not 'great' (though, it was in keeping).
I realize more and more, it's feeling like there's a dissonance between the story you're telling us and the one you have in your head; the positive emotions etc. in Haruhi are already there, and you're just forgetting to bring them onscreen because you're thinking, "But Haruhi's also the narrator; would she actually admit that?"
Which ... is entirely valid, and part of why she's so hard to write in first person.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 21, 2011, 01:16:58 AMAt any rate, it is apparent to me that chapter four as written is does not have an approach, tone, or direction beneficial to the future of the story. Toward the goal of remedying that, I've been working on the rewrite, and this is what I have so far. Posting partial work is, I admit, something I've not done before, but I'd like to give some idea of what I've taken away from the discussion so far.
Mmph. I feel bad we made all that noise, you revised, and there were no other comments....
Well, let me apologize for continually overstating my PoV; I just get too worked up over this. >_>
I've read through your revisions, and I'll say that I like it a lot better, and Haruhi's character feels more like someone who's chosen a route through her confusions and is going to weather it. Otherwise, while it does play (now) more to my biases, I'm a jerk, so make sure you're happy with what you've got.
Good luck with your story, Mr. Clark. :)
Yep, I definitely like this revision as well. It even nullifies some objections to previous chapters in my opinion - with the rest of the fic as it stands, it feels like Haruhi was being a bit of an awful person, then the stadium scene shocked her into behaving properly. Character development in real life does work that way: we move forward two steps, we take one step back, we need some kind of shock to point us in the right direction again...
My only concern is that Tsuruya might be toned down a hair or two; she seems to be playing to Brian's complaints just a bit too much. Highly personal version regarding Tsuruya, which was obtained by sort of selectively ignoring or re-editing certain minor aspects of canon: it's uncanny how she does her bit to keep the brigade moving forward on a human level without being particularly syrupy or even considerate (although of course she gets better as things go along, she's still Tsuruya throughout). Here she was a bit too considerate maybe. Not sure if you want to be listening to me on this point :-)
Yeah, Tsuruya is someone I'm still trying to peg. How far off-kilter, if that's the right way of putting it, can Tsuruya be considering what just happened not twenty minutes before? Truthfully, I don't know. I like that interpretation, though--that she has her own way of nudging the brigade in another direction. It's something to think about while I mull over whether Tsuruya holding Asahina halfway out the window of a moving limousine is too much. Or something like that.
Regardless of that, though, thank you both for your responses. I admit, it's been a bit tough, trying to step back and reevaluate and come to a revised understanding of who these characters are. I think in part I was making big leaps and stretches in an effort to insert conflict that shouldn't be there. On the external side of things, what can pose a substantive threat to Haruhi that Kyon wouldn't play the trump card for? Perhaps, if she's artificially restrained herself in some way (now where might that idea have come? hm...), it's plausible, but only then. The internal, within-the-brigade side of things has been hashed out already.
So, on the whole, I'm very appreciative of this feedback and the chance to reexamine and get things right.
Quote from: Brian on September 20, 2011, 01:25:08 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 19, 2011, 11:58:48 PMSo I guess even when they stopped using samovars they (and some of their descendants) got used to the idea that their tea water has to be that hot.
Interesting.
And after that discussion, I discover the existence of this scene in Nichijou:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQzEQLuZ4Tk
I'm now trying to research what exactly "Rosshian Tii" refers to in Japanese. (Probably very strong, very hot black tea?) It does seem to correlate to my own experience drinking it...
So, this is the extension of the snippet posted above. I think this is the point I want to end the chapter, though the Piggy planet will probably turn up later. While I realize with the original idea I made Haruhi be too unforgiving and unwilling to understand, I admit I do fear that this version may be too far in the other direction, perhaps in a way that doesn't mesh with what's already written. On the other hand, it can be a moment to relax and breathe after Mori and Asakura's theatrics. So that's an aspect I'd be interested to hear about.
At any rate, since this version is a bit shorter, it actually fits entirely below.
"Yuki!"
My voice rang out clearly, for in the aftermath of Asakura's attack, the stadium was quiet—a lot quieter than fifty thousand people ever should be. Maybe it was the shock of what'd happened. I doubt most people could even start to understand what Asakura had done. Hell, I didn't understand what that show of lights meant or how she made the people float out of their seats. Was she something like me?
My gut clenched. Just the possibility of being anything like her should make anyone sick. I put the thought out of my mind. Someone else stopped Asakura. Someone else used Mikuru-chan's cap to do it. I knew that well; I held the hat in my hands.
And I knew who I'd seen walking away on the next aisle.
"Yuki, stop!"
She must've heard me. It was too quiet. She couldn't have missed it. Why won't you answer me, Yuki?
I started to go after her, back to the concession alley, but there was a scream, a commotion. The aisles started to flood with people, scampering to leave their seats. It was like, all of a sudden, all the fans woke from their stupor, and I wasn't halfway up the section stair before I was surrounded, bumped, and jostled from every direction. What could I do to change that? "Hey, everyone, stop!" I could yell. "You have to let me through, so I can find out why this cute little bookworm girl was on the wrong side of the stadium when this other invisible girl was speared in the shoulder, okay?" I may be commanding as a brigade chief, but getting a few hundred people to listen to you is a different matter!
At least, if you don't have powers. I could picture Asakura grinning with the idea—that if I did something subtle, something no one would notice, all these people might stop and listen and get out of the way. I'll be honest: that smile of hers scares the shit out of me. I don't want to give her what she wants.
But, on the other hand, I can't stand by and be powerless. I can't just listen to Mori-san. I stood around, forcing myself to do nothing. I shouldn't have hesitated. I should've set out to walk the fine line.
I know all that because I saw what made the spectators run from their seats. Most of them were unhurt, it looked like. They'd floating out of their seats far too slowly to be in danger. I imagine you could hold yourself down and be fine—if you had something to hold on to. If you were unlucky enough to be on the field or in an aisle—there are no handrails or anything like that, not at Kōshien...
That's why I should've done things differently. I was afraid of myself. I didn't want to give in to her, but I ended up doing just that. I didn't give her everything, but she got the next best thing.
In the next aisle over, some people had stopped, forming a circle and kneeling down. I couldn't see what they were crowding around, but I could guess. I was torn over it. I hoped, on the one hand, that those passers-by might be able to help that person, to bring him back so the paramedics, whenever they got here, would have a fighting chance to save him.
And on the other, I hoped he'd gone quickly, so Asakura would've missed the light in his eyes going out.
They stopped the game after the incident, leaving it unfinished in the bottom of the seventh. All around the outside of the stadium, blue and red lights flashed. Police officers gathered at each gate and stair, ushering those who could walk to safety. Paramedics pushed their way through the crowd and carried out those who couldn't. Most people couldn't wait to make a beeline for the station, but I cut across and around the stadium's perimeter. Yuki should still have been around there somewhere. Kyon and the others—they'd wait for me. I tucked the other hat under my arm and started dialing my phone.
"Haruhi?"
A siren blared as an ambulance motored off. I covered one ear with my hand and pressed the phone to the other. "Kyon?" I began. "Can you hear me? Is everyone all right?"
"We're fine; everyone's fine. What happened? Where did you run off to?"
I winced. Just what should I say? That I'd found an invisible girl in the toilet and chased after her? Okay, maybe that's a little more believable ever since I started doing impossible things myself, but then I'd have to explain it all—why Asakura was trying to manipulate me, why I didn't act to save everyone sooner. Because I was stubborn, because I was scared, I made someone else do it for me.
Someone like Yuki. That's what I wanted to know. I wanted to know about Yuki.
"Haruhi? Are you still there?"
"Is Yuki with you?" I asked.
"Nagato? Yeah, she's here."
"When did she get back?"
"Just now? Look, we're outside by stair twenty-two. Tsuruya-san is getting a car for us since the bus's bound to be packed."
"Then thank Tsuruya-san for me. Tell her we'll do ten thousand hours of service for her in return!"
" 'Ten thousand'?" he cried. "And what kind of service?"
"But more importantly," I said, "don't let Yuki out of your sight. That's an order! You understand?"
"What's all this about?"
"And Kyon, I expect if you so much as skinned your elbow from what happened today, you would tell me. A good brigade member doesn't hide any injuries from the chief. You're not hurt at all, are you?"
"No."
"Not even a scratch?"
"I was worried about you, too, Haruhi."
My ears went a little warm. Kyon, I'm glad you can't see me right now.
"I'm really all right. We all are."
I let out a breath, relieved. If any of us, the brigade of Tsuruya-san, were hurt, it'd be worse. I know that's horrible to say out loud or write in black and white, but it's true, isn't it? No one means as much to you as your family and friends. I've always had family, of course, but for a long time, I thought anyone I met at school or in clubs—anyone I could possibly make friends with—wouldn't be interesting, wouldn't be worth knowing.
That's all changed in the last year. My friends were at this baseball game with me. They don't have to be time-travelers, aliens, espers, or sliders to be interesting. Mikuru-chan is adorable. Koizumi-kun's wise and agreeable. Tsuruya-san is like another burst of energy whenever she's around. And yes, as much as I nag on him, Kyon is Kyon—my dose of reality, of honesty that no one else can give.
That just leaves Yuki, really, and if she is the person I saw walking away from me as Asakura disappeared—no, there's no if about it, I know she is—then there's the Yuki I know...
And there's someone else—or something else—too.
I stayed on the line with Kyon until I caught up to him and the others at our entry gate. The weather had turned a bit cool for a summer evening; I spotted Mikuru-chan with a blanket draped over her shoulders, the one we'd brought to protect from the sun. Even though Kyon was on the line with me and Koizumi-kun was looking over the crowd, too, it was Tsuruya-san who spotted me first.
"Yo, Haru-nyan, you're okay? That's a big relief after all this trouble. I feel like it's my fault, getting all of you involved in this."
Like you could've guessed a psychotic alien would attack today? Not a chance. I told Tsuruya-san we'd be glad to tag along with her, anytime, as long as she'd have us. We still had a summer retreat planned, didn't we?
"That's the spirit!" she cried. "At times like this, you have to remember to treasure the days you have, you know."
Truer words have never been said. That's why I watched the sixth member of our group as we waited for Tsuruya-san's car. Yuki had parked herself beside Koizumi-kun like a statue, reading from her hardcover like nothing had happened.
"Well?"
I jolted. Kyon, don't sneak up on me like that!
"If you're watching Nagato, does that mean I still have to?"
Well, if you must ask, the order has yet to be rescinded. To disregard it would be wanton dereliction of duty!
"That armband says 'Brigade Chief,' not 'Minister of Defense.' "
Yuki's eye wandered from the pages of the green hardcover. That's no good; we'd only spook her like this. I pulled Kyon aside.
"Where are we—"
"Shh!" I hushed him, looking back to watch Yuki. She wasn't watching us, but could she be listening instead? Could she have some super hearing power? Well, if she did, she'd already know I'd spotted her. She hadn't done anything about it. Either she wasn't going to, even if I told Kyon...
Or I'd be ready, just in case—more ready than I had been with Asakura. As impossible as it is to imagine anything like that coming from Yuki...
Well, that's why someone needs to know.
"Kyon," I began, "you're going to have a hard time believing this, but just listen, okay? I'm not making this up. When I went to the toilet, after that woman fell, someone was waiting for me. It was—"
"Asakura."
Yeah, it was Asa—wait, you're not supposed to know that yet! I didn't tell you!
"It's all right," he said. "Nagato told me everything."
Yuki told him everything. Yuki, who wouldn't stop for me or even meet my eyes, told Kyon exactly what happened? Why would she do that? Wouldn't it be a shock for him, for everyone, to see Yuki running off with Mikuru-chan's hat? With no explanation for why, and then all that...
Unless Kyon knew what Yuki was all along.
"Haruhi, look at me," he said. "Take a minute. Take a breath."
"What is she?" I whispered. "A superhuman? Genetically altered? Is that what Asakura is, too? That light—they're sliders, aren't they? They took us to another dimension!"
"They're not sliders; they're aliens."
An alien. Yuki's an alien. She's some sort of thing, a creature bottled into human form. Gods, if I hadn't seen that pointed metal spear sticking through Asakura's shoulder, I don't think I'd believe it now.
But what's more amazing than all that is the person who's telling me this. Kyon, of all people, would be the last person I'd ever expect to have a secret life with aliens. How can this be true, Kyon? How do you know this to be true?
I asked him, and his brow furrowed. He checked over his shoulder, at Yuki and the others. Mikuru-chan and Tsuruya-san were talking. Yuki was reading her book. Koizumi-kun had a relaxed expression, standing between the three of them. At last, with a heavy breath, Kyon faced me again.
"Haruhi," he said, "what do you remember about Tanabata four years ago?"
That Tanabata...
You'd be better off asking me what I don't remember, Kyon. It was a muggy night. The skies were clear. All the preparations I'd made in advance. I'd gone to one of the teachers during lunch, asking about a math problem, and swiped the gate key he kept on a neck chain. After that, I'd headed to the athletic storeroom, moving what I needed—a line marker, a cart, and some lime—to the back, where no one would look. That's because if I'd tried to steal a key from my gym teacher and got caught, I'd be in trouble. He used to do pro wrestling, you know, and he made it clear that any lack of discipline on our part would be punished with a demonstration of his old moves. I always thought that was pretty fishy, probably illegal even, but since no one else had been crazy enough to find out, I didn't want to be first.
Ever since I'd had that weird dream the night before, I'd started drawing up the message I wanted to send. If there were aliens out there, watching us, it could easily take them dozens or hundreds of years to see my drawing and send a response. They might not even realize it's there until well after the light from Earth that night had passed them by. At any rate, I figured it had to be done right the first time. Radio signals and skyscrapers only showed them our technology, our knowledge. Only a few people were actually trying to get messages to the stars, and who better to aim that message to on the seventh day of the seventh month than the weaver princess and her cow-herding lover in the sky?
In hindsight, I think my message was received, just not by whom I expected to get it. I was fully prepared to draw it all myself, to make corrections as I stepped back and gained perspective. If I had to, I'd take all night to get it perfect, but instead, I had help. There was a stranger at the gate that night, carrying his sister on his back. That's the only thing I don't remember as clearly as I'd like. In the moon- and starlight, I never saw his face that well, but we talked for some time. He wasn't like normal people. He saw no reason aliens, time-travelers, and espers shouldn't be everywhere. He was from North High, and he said there were people there who sent messages to the stars, too.
After that night, I thought, if I went by North High from time to time, I might see him. Even if I wasn't sure if his face, I should recognize him, right? By the way he walked? By who he hung out with and how he acted?
I never found him, though. Maybe if I'd known more about him, I could've, but I didn't. I just knew he had an older sister, that he went to North High, and that, on that night, he went by an alias—a pathetically obvious one at that. It was a name that shouldn't have meant anything.
"You went to East Middle School to draw lines on the ground, didn't you?"
A blinked. Was that guy talking to me, calling back from the past?
No, no, we were still on that street corner, surrounded by thousands of anxious souls. And it wasn't that guy from the past whispering to me. It was Kyon.
"A lot of people know that," I answered him. "It's not a secret."
"But what no one knows, what you didn't tell a soul, is that someone helped you," said Kyon. "You found him, a North High student, and you pressed him into drawing that diagram for you while you watched. I'm right, aren't I, Haruhi? You remember like it was yesterday: how he called out to you, after you were finished, and asked you to never forget his name."
And I didn't! I couldn't! I searched all over for him, yet nothing came of it. I dreamed of the day he'd find me and ask if I remembered that summer night.
But now it's you who's telling me this, Kyon? How can this be? Did he tell you? No, he wouldn't, would he? But if he didn't—no, that doesn't make sense! We're in the same year. If you'd been in high school then, you should've been gone before I ever came to North High. How can you tell me I've seen your face day in and day out for over a year now and never thought...
Is this why I felt you were familiar? Is this why I thought I knew you but couldn't place how or where?
"Haruhi," he whispered, "do you need me to say that name?"
No—I mean, yes—I mean—
I don't know. My heart was racing. I stared at him, studying his face. These are details I should know too well by now—the color of his eyes, the way his hair falls around his ears. They are like that person's features, aren't they? If I could remember more clearly...
I guess you need to tell me, then. I need to hear it to be absolutely sure. Tell me the name you used that night.
Tell me your name is John...
"And kiss her!"
Kyon and I sprang apart, my heart beating almost out of my chest. What on Earth are you talking about, Tsuruya-san?!
"What's this?" She tilted her head innocently. "I thought sure Kyon-kun and Haru-nyan were having a love-love moment. Was I wrongs?"
As it turns out, Tsuruya-san had good reasons for interrupting us. The police had set up a perimeter around the stadium, and no private vehicles were permitted to enter. We walked two blocks to meet her father's private car—a jet black stretch limousine.
"If you and Kyon-kun want some privacy, that can be arranged too," she whispered to me as we walked. "Sometimes, it just takes one day to realize what's important to you in life. I think we'd all understand."
Kyon and I aren't like that, Tsuruya-san! I mean, it's not like I wouldn't consider it, but I don't know if he—I mean, that's not what we were talking about!
Besides, you may know him as Kyon, but he's John Smith, too. At least, I can only assume so—unless he's John Smith pretending to be some guy called Kyon, having waited, ticking off the days until the right time...
Tsuruya-san's car sped away from the stadium, and there were more questions burning in my mind than there are protons in this universe. I couldn't stand it—sitting there quietly with Kyon across from me, just as silent while the others were chatting away. We were interrupted, after all. Kyon didn't really say anything. Whatever I thought that meant could turn out to be wrong. If I couldn't hear him say it plainly, I'd have to make sure some other way.
I'd have to see it in black and white.
I opened my phone and started pounding at the keypad. John Smith is my secret, after all. I wasn't about to blurt it out for everyone to hear.
My question was simple. Either he'd understand, or he wouldn't. I hit send, and his phone vibrated in his pocket. He flipped it open, scratching his temple, and looked up. I don't know if he was surprised or uncertain or what. Maybe it was a little weird for me to press the issue even while we were surrounded by Tsuruya-san and the rest of the brigade. I'd waited four years to find that person, right? What's another minute, another day?
Screw that. He's sitting in front of me, and there's no reason to wait any longer when all I have to do is ask an easy question and hope he answers it.
I typed it in, one character at a time. Kyon, if you're who I think you are, you know the answer right away.
"What is your name?"
He started thumbing in his response, one keypress at a time. He looked up from time to time, acting like he was intimately involved in Tsuruya-san's story about how her ancestors survived the Great Genroku Earthquake. It didn't take him long to answer, though, and in the dim light of the limousine, I covered my phone to keep the glow from disturbing anyone else. The answer was there, in Roman characters so I'd be absolutely sure.
"JOHN SMITH."
That's what came up on my phone's screen, and I think I about jumped out of my seat, banging my head on the roof of the limo.
"Suzumiya-san? Are you all right?"
That was Mikuru-chan, who blinked curiously at me like she wasn't sure how I hadn't put a hole through the roof doing all that. Really, though, it stung, but I was fine. They should have a sunroof or something. Don't they have sunroofs on these things?
"It is unfortunate; I agree," said Koizumi-kun. "The use of sunroofs is substantially reduced at night. I think I read a study to that effect. Perhaps, if there were a way to make the sun's rays visible even after dark. It's conceivable a set of reflective Niven rings would do the trick."
"Then it wouldn't be dark at night," said Kyon. "You'd do all that to make it so you can use a sunroof after dusk?"
Koizumi-kun made a face at that, like he'd been caught off-guard. He waved it off as a momentary lapse, but I didn't mind it. He'd actually been really helpful to me. He proved to me that Kyon was still Kyon, even if he was John Smith, too. If he saw something that didn't make sense, he wouldn't hesitate to speak up about it.
But how did he get to be John Smith in the first place?
I got to thumb-typing on my phone again as the conversation switched to convertibles and how Mikuru-chan had never stuck her head out a car window and gotten her hair ruffled or anything like that. While Tsuruya-san tried to convince her to do it then and there, I sent my next message.
"So you're a time-traveler," I wrote.
Kyon got the mail and instantly shook his head. So you're not a time-traveler?
Then he blinked, frowned, and reconsidered. "I've traveled through time, but I needed help to do it."
If I'd had the time or the patience, I'd have mailed him back that he shouldn't send messages that demand obvious responses, but that would've taken another mail and gotten us too far down the wrong path. I ignored it, sending back the 'obvious' response: "From who?"
He looked to the open window.
"Tsuruya-san!" Mikuru-chan was being dangled halfway out that open window, panting and making an Eee! noise as she breathed. "Tsuruya-san, I can't feel my face!"
"Don't worry; dogs do it all the time," said our host. "Here, Koizumi-kun, why don't you give me a hand holding her up? There's plenty of room to grab on!"
Koizumi-kun's eyes widened, and he waved her off. "I'm afraid I must politely decline..."
As Mikuru-chan finally begged Tsuruya-san to let her back in all the way, Kyon's eyes met mine. He looked to the window and back again, hitting the point home. The time-traveler—she had to be...
I shut my phone. "No way," I mouthed to him.
He nodded repeatedly.
Mikuru-chan's a time-traveler? This mousy girl beside me?
Kyon caught my baffled expression and started typing again. "John Smith's older sister."
The sleepy narcoleptic girl? That's right, she could've been there. Yuki's an alien. Mikuru-chan's a time-traveler. What could be next? Tsuruya-san and Koizumi-kun? Are they sliders, then?
When I asked him that, Kyon made a face. What's that supposed to mean? There are no sliders anywhere? He didn't say, of course. His answer was much simpler.
"She's normal, as far as any of us know."
All right.
"He's an esper."
An esper? So he could be reading our thoughts right now?
"He wasn't given that kind of power," Kyon sent back.
And who gave him what powers he does have, then?
Kyon closed his phone and looked straight at me. The meaning was clear as day.
I did.
I put my phone away. I looked through the tinted windows, trying to keep my eyes on the outside, on what was moving. I know that's supposed to work for motion sickness, but we were hardly driving fast enough for anything like that. It's not every day you find out your friends have these amazing secret lives they never could tell you about. Just sitting there, looking out the window and listening to them talk, I wanted to jump in and stop everything. How far in the future are you from, Mikuru-chan? What's your home planet like, Yuki? What kind of special powers do you have, Koizumi-kun? That'd only scratch the surface, too, but with Tsuruya-san there, it was like we were all just ordinary high-school students on our way back home. You'd never know the difference just by looking at us.
I felt exhausted. Between Asakura and finding all this out from Kyon Smith here, I think all the excitement finally caught up to me. I ran through in my head a bunch of other things I wanted to know: when Kyon must've gone back in time to meet me, why he did it, how Mikuru-chan helped, why I would've given Koizumi-kun powers, what the relationship between Yuki and Asakura was, and more, but my thoughts started drifting. The street lights passed us by at even intervals, rhythmic and hypnotic.
Tsuruya-san's driver dropped off Mikuru-chan at her complex first, then Koizumi-kun, then Yuki. When I asked Tsuruya-san how that could be—we'd gone around Kyon and my houses to do just that—she winked at me, claiming it was a navigational error, an honest mistake.
As we pulled up to Kyon's house, he was indifferent about it. "My parents and sister are out of town for the weekend. It's not like they're waiting for me to come back and tell them I'm alive. Good night, Tsuruya-san, Haruhi."
Good night? We can't stop right now; talking over mail messages and simple gestures isn't enough!
I jumped out of the car, ignoring Tsuruya-san's snickering. "Are you sure I can't take you any further?" she said.
"I'll be fine," I called back.
Kyon gawked at me, eyes wide. Tsuruya-san's limo sped away, but his gaze never wavered.
"What's this about?" he asked.
You know what this is about. You've been holding out on me, having these adventures with aliens and time-travelers. How interesting the tales of John Smith must be. I bet you could fill ten or twelve books with them, right?
"Something like that," he said. "Why? You want me to start from the beginning?"
I shook my head. "The beginning isn't usually the best part, is it? I want to hear all about it, of course—every last detail, if you'll let me."
"That's kind of the idea."
"But today," I said, "if you had only one story to tell me, what would it be? The best adventure John Smith ever had—tell me about it."
He smiled to himself, ever-so-slightly, and motioned for me to follow. We walked the path to his door together, and with a simple turn of a key, he undid the lock.
" 'John Smith's most special adventure,' huh? Where to begin...?"
He flipped on a light, and we kicked off our shoes, but Kyon didn't bother with getting an extra pair of slippers from the closet. Instead, he undid the top button on his shirt.
"John Smith's powers don't just extend to space and time," he said. "He has the ability to explore a girl's dreams."
There was a tingling on the back of my neck.
"He was curious about a girl he'd met some years before, and he found her imagination as expansive and unending as he'd ever conceived of."
I stepped forward, watching him, studying him. Kyon's always been a little guarded. You won't catch him cackling or with a big grin, but he smiles from time to time, and it's not forced or put-on. He means it.
Even so, I'm not perfect at reading people. I had to ask, just to be sure. "You thought that was an exciting dream?" I asked.
"Absolutely. There were white giants taller than a skyscraper, parading all about. It was impressive, seeing a world so meticulous in detail, so close to reality, yet imbued with the dreamer's signature touch..."
Oh gods, who is this person? Where's he been hiding, this guy who serenades a girl with romantic tales of his adventures? This is too much, Kyon; I just found out you were John Smith today! This poetic reverence in your voice, the look in your eyes—I don't know how much longer I can hold back against those.
Or if I even want to.
"Do I need to ask permission, Brigade Chief?" he whispered.
Permission? Why should you ask permission?
"You might think it strange for a guy who's traveled through time to visit a girl when she was thirteen and befriend her three years later."
I'm in no mood to worry about such things right now, Kyon; this is what I've wanted for so long—to share something awe-inspiring with you and see the wonder in your eyes, except it's not what I thought it would be. Today, it's you who's shown me something amazing, and I don't want to forget because it excites me. It's exhilarating, this sensation, this feeling. Every square centimeter of my skin is tingling. If you touch me with even the tip of your finger, I don't know what'll happen. I don't know if I'll be able to stand.
"No qualms?" he asked. "Then this should make things a little better." He lifted the ball cap from my head, dropping it lightly to the ground.
"You know," I said, "I do have a hair-band, if you think we'll need it."
He smiled to himself. "No, no. The person in front of me is just fine." He leaned in. His breath tickled my lips. His fingers brushed the back of my arm, my elbow. I closed my eyes, and—
HONK-HONK!
And while tires screeched outside the window, I hit my head on the roof of the limo for the second time that night. I need to train myself not to do that—to jump from surprise or excitement in a motor vehicle. It hurts.
"Let me guess," said Kyon. "You got excited about something again?"
That's, um, nothing I want to describe in front of four other people. I mean, not unless you're into that sort of thing, but—
I blinked. The limo was idling. The cabin was quiet. Tsuruya-san and the others had disappeared. "Where are we?" I asked.
"Kitaguchi Station. At the very least, I had to come back and get my bike."
Bah, of course, I'd forgotten all about that. Silly dreams. They can be so out of touch with reality. "What about the others?"
He pointed outside. Through the window, Tsuruya-san was keeping the rest of the brigade entertained with stories.
"I asked her to give us a minute," said Kyon. "She was all too happy to oblige."
"So you were watching me sleep?" I asked.
He looked away.
"You didn't draw on my face, did you?"
He snorted. "We've had this conversation before, Haruhi. No, I just figured the brigade chief hadn't yet given her members permission to adjourn—that if she still had business with them..."
Business with the brigade, huh? I did have some things I wanted to say. There's been a lot to take in, and maybe it wouldn't be a crime to rest and sleep, to come back tomorrow with fresh eyes and a clear head.
But that's not how Suzumiya Haruhi does things. Tsuruya-san was right; there's no time like the present. I don't want to go another second without knowing all of you. I don't want to go another minute before I meet everyone again.
With a deep breath, I stepped out of the limousine and shielding my eyes to adapt to the light.
And there they were—my friends, yet I felt like I'd only begun to know them. Yuki closed her book, looking back at me. Koizumi-kun gave a small nod of respect. Mikuru-chan put her hands together in front of her, standing tall.
"Ah, she's awake!" cried Tsuruya-san, rushing over to peer at me. "Did you have good dreams, Haru-nyan?"
I did, but it wasn't reality, and reality is what I want to find today. "Tsuruya-san," I said, "thanks for inviting us, even though things turned out badly. I think we'll be all right from here."
"Oh, I see what's doing—private SOS Brigade business, right? Okies. Mikuru, call me!"
As Kyon ambled up behind me, Tsuruya-san climbed back into the limo and winked at us. The door shut, and she took off, the limousine disappearing into the night. There we were—the SOS Brigade—but I felt like I should introduce myself to them. We weren't the same group that'd met that afternoon. I was sure of that.
"Guys," I said to them, "Kyon's told me some things, but I get the feeling there's a lot left to talk about. I know it's been a long day, but..."
"Perhaps we could sit down at the café?" Koizumi-kun suggested, looking a bit too amused with himself. "I think that would be an appropriate venue to revisit past events."
"So Kyon-kun did tell Suzumiya-san about us after all?" Mikuru-chan wrung her hands. "But then this is really unknown territory to me. What might happen now is highly classified information; I don't know if I'm supposed to be the one dealing with things like this..."
"Whether we're the ones meant to be here or not, the task falls to us," said Kyon. "Shall we go?"
Yeah. Let's go together. I want to have tea with a time-traveler. I want to have a conversation with an esper entirely in my mind. I want to hear alien languages and see their bizarre forms. I've probably done at least a couple of these things already, not even knowing it, and that's what excites me. That's what's amazing. Looking in a large glass window from the storefront beside us, I glimpsed our reflections. We walked together, a parade of the most interesting people on this planet, whether they were exotic creatures or not. That's undeniably cool, except...
"Haruhi?" Kyon pressed his lips together, stifling a laugh. "What's the problem?"
The problem was there were black marker lines all over my forehead and cheeks. "Kyon," I said, "you really did draw on my face!"
It took ten minutes for me to rub off all the marker. Kyon laid the blame squarely on Tsuruya-san, insisting that no one else had anything to do with it, but Yuki pointed out that Mikuru-chan had been persuaded to join in as well. It was Koizumi-kun who said the most interesting thing, though. When I came back from the toilet, finding our drinks at the table, I realized I must've taken longer than I'd thought. That's when he said it:
"Truthfully, I'm surprised you used paper and water to do the job instead of wiping the ink away with your powers. Perhaps it's a small act, but I think it an act providing marvelous insight. My colleagues would be most interested to hear of this."
Colleagues, Koizumi-kun?
"If they're anything like this guy," Kyon began, "then they're the kind of people who, if Professor Freud told them that sometimes a cigar really is a cigar, they might not believe it on the first go."
"Ah, but Professor Freud may never have made that statement," Koizumi-kun asserted. "Hence, I find it curious you would deflect the possibility of insight into Suzumiya-san's mind. Perhaps you feel you already understand her quite well?"
Kyon sighed, looking at me. "You see what I've had to deal with?"
I didn't quite understand then, but I picked up a few things over the course of that night. I learned. I learned that Koizumi-kun fancied himself a philosopher of sorts, speculating that I was everything from a cosmic creature left to maintain this universe to God Himself, and it wasn't Kyon who disagreed with him—at least, he wasn't the one most vehement in doing so.
"How could Suzumiya-san even exist if she created this world?" asked Mikuru-chan. "Why would she make a universe With all the details and history you remember, out of all the possibilities?" She shook her head confidently. "In the future, we find that idea very implausible. This world has always been here. Somehow, Suzumiya-san developed or was given her power, but there is a well-defined time before that event."
"A time you cannot reach," Koizumi-kun pointed out, "and hence cannot be certain really exists."
"But of course it—" Mikuru-chan stopped, looking at me nervously. "I mean, why should it not? You may have to take my word for it, Koizumi-kun. The details I'd use to prove it all seem to be classified..."
Koizumi-kun wasn't satisfied with that, though, and the two of them went back and forth for a time, with Yuki jumping in only when Kyon asked for her opinion to settle the debate.
There was one thing they all agreed with, though—or at least, they were too cautious to rule it out. I may not have created this world. Perhaps I couldn't irrevocably change it in a way that would be felt ten or a hundred or a thousand years from now, but if I grew dissatisfied enough with it, if I wanted to escape to another realm, another place, it was possible. I could do that. Maybe the exact nature of that act wasn't well-understood, but I'd done it before. Kyon knew it, too.
That was the day he used fairy tales to save the world. He wasn't so crass about it as to say what he'd done, not in front of the others, but the meaning was clear: he kissed me to save the world, and whatever else he might've felt...
Well, I should be fair. That was just one incident out of many where the brigade did things to keep me from getting angry, to appease me, to keep this world exactly the way it was. Faced with the possibility, however remote, that it could be replaced with something utterly foreign and strange, I don't know if I'd have done any differently. I can think up totally bizarre and alien universes—ones where space has only a forward and back, but time is like a plane, where future and past have a left and right, too. I don't know what would've happened if I'd become so possessed with realizing that kind of idea. Maybe it's best that none of us know.
But it's weird and unsettling—to hear how your memories of being with people don't really tell the whole truth. Over the course of that night, I heard so many stories. Those few days I spent at Kyon's bedside last December, waiting for him to wake up? They didn't happen. Traipsing around an empty mansion in a snowstorm? That did. We made a movie, and without even realizing it, I turned those colored contacts for Mikuru-chan into deadly laser beams and razor cutters. It made me feel like a bitch, honestly, knowing what I put everyone through.
"That only goes so far, Haruhi," Kyon assured me. "You didn't know, and we didn't tell you."
That's right; you guys didn't tell me because I gave you no reason to, no reason to think I was anything but a dangerous, selfish little girl. Even now, with what Asakura did, what Mori-san said to me, you guys just have to do this, not knowing if I'd take it well or badly or what.
"You're a different person now," said Kyon. "When we talked it over, trying to figure out how to tell you, we all agreed—compared to the girl we met at the beginning of last year, the Haruhi of today would understand better why we've done what we've done, why we've kept things to ourselves for so long."
That's what Kyon said, and the others clearly had followed his lead. Through every story and explanation I heard that night, Kyon was at the center of things. The others went to him for help when they needed it, and he relied on their powers, their expertise, to get through all the weird events that swirled around me. When he spoke, the others listened, and they seldom explained or elaborated on what he said. They never contradicted him. I may have been leader of the brigade, but Kyon was in charge of something very different—an alliance, I guess, of paranormal beings, all working to keep the world safe from something more powerful than all of them.
But that wasn't why we'd gathered. Kyon's purpose in telling me what I was and what I could do was to protect me from the Entity that was both Yuki and Asakura's master; from Mori-san, who worked with Koizumi-kun but represented, in his words, "the element of our organization that believes the worst about Suzumiya-san and felt the only way to ensure the status quo was to frighten her into submission."
When the café staff started wiping down the tables and the neon sign in front flickered out, Kyon finished the last of his cup and looked squarely at me. "Whatever those people try to do to you from now on, Haruhi, remember this: they can't touch you. They can't threaten you or intimidate you or anything else. You have the power to change what they say even before it comes out of their mouths. You have the power, as Moir-san said, to erase someone whose intentions are a danger to you or any of us in the brigade. This is the power we've been reluctant to give you—no, this is the power I've been reluctant to give you, but now you have it. Use it sparingly. Use it wisely. Don't be afraid, though." He gestured to the others. "None of us would be here if we thought you couldn't handle it."
With that, we adjourned. The SOS Brigade would still meet like always. We five were spectacular people, but that didn't mean we couldn't hang out after school and plan the search for other mysteries in this world. In that, not much had changed. I knew that well when Kyon took out his wallet and started counting the bills need to pay.
"Kyon," I said, "what are you doing?"
"It's tradition, isn't it?" He thumbed the bills between his fingers, squinting. "You know, this is what happened the first time. We were at that table over there, and I said, 'Haruhi, you won't believe this, but it's the truth. Asahina-san's a time-traveler, Koizumi an esper, Nagato an alien.' "
That's right; I remember that day now, about a year ago. I stormed out because I thought Kyon was mocking me. I thought no one would say such things unless they meant to mock me because, well, it couldn't be true. It wouldn't be so easy.
How stubborn a girl can be when she thinks the world is so dull a place that nothing she wants will come true. I didn't believe Kyon then. I didn't even give him a chance to explain.
I took the check with our total for the evening and pushed Kyon's money across the table, into his lap.
"What's this?" he asked me.
It's payment with interest, you might say. It's my gratitude to you guys for being here, for being willing to explain and recount what's happened—the bad along with the good.
I left a two-thousand-yen note on the table. "Guys," I said, "thank you."
When I made it home that night, my father welcomed me back, not knowing I'd even gone to Kōshien, but word of what'd happened was already on the news and the net.
"Sounds like something out of a science-fiction story," said Father, reading the article on his laptop as he worked in the main room. "People floating out of their seats, strange lights—oh, here, look. There are even rumors about a girl walking away from the scene with a piece of metal sticking through her body. I think perhaps people have had too much to drink at these games."
And only you'd still be working over your computer as it nears eleven o'clock on a Saturday night, Father. Your daughter was away all afternoon. Didn't you consider taking Mother out to dinner?
"Oh, no no, she's upstairs scribbling away at her notebook. In that way, your mother and I are very much alike. We embrace our passions at home. When I left her earlier, she was babbling away about some nine-tailed fox that offers naÏve little girls their greatest wishes in exchange for contracts or some such. I couldn't follow it. If the demon grants you any wish when you make a pact with it, why not make a wish to change the system?"
That's exactly what happens in the end, Father.
"And if the trend of things is the same these days, it probably takes all of a season of television for anyone to figure that out." He shook his head. "This is why I stick to things that are eminently practical and logical."
Are you arguing with people on the Internet about which text editor is better again?
He pulled the laptop lid toward him, shielding the screen from me. That was fine. We all have our weaknesses. Me, I'd hid that Tigers cap behind my back as soon as Father asked me about the game. I snuck up to my room tossed it aside, and it landed on my bed upside-down, Mikuru-chan's initials plain as day. The ink had bled into the fabric, the borders broken and ill-defined. I think Mikuru-chan and I got our caps mixed up, maybe at the café. Clearly, being turned into a spear to stop Asakura hadn't done this hat any favors, but it was useful, in its own way. It told me I had unfinished business with someone. Kyon showed faith in me, telling me about John Smith and everything else. He and the others, despite their reservations, let me know about myself. They didn't want me to feel threatened from Mori-san or Asakura, and that's enough for me.
But not for them. If not for Yuki saving the others from Asakura today...
On my desk was the hundred-yen coin. I took it in my hand. I felt the faces between my fingers—the contours of the metal, the reeded edge. John Smith's faith in me was that I could use my powers wisely.
I won't let you down, Kyon. And I won't let dangerous people like Asakura or Mori-san threaten you, either. The message has to be sent—today, and not one day later.
I closed my fist over the coin and disappeared from sight.
Again, the solution to this chapter not meshing with previous chapter is quite simple: Haruhi is shellshocked and the scope of the stadium incident startled her into being more considerate, in a way that Taniguchi being struck by lightning didn't. If you want to work with that idea it needs to be hinted at a little bit more that Haruhi is severely shocked at having to deal with a situation where Asakura is holding an entire stadium hostage, and that her shift in behaviour afterward is indeed the result of a minor epiphany about what she's doing wrong...
It seems mostly nailed down (depending on how the story goes from here), so my criticisms below are perhaps a bit more grouchy and vehement than they
need to be.
QuoteThey'd floating out of their seats far too slowly to be in danger.
How about 'They'd been floating'?
QuoteIf any of us, the brigade of Tsuruya-san, were hurt, it'd be worse.
Probably "The brigade, or Tsuruya-san"? Bit awkward though. I don't think you
need to specify Tsuruya-san separately since she's considered an 'honorary member' anyways.
Quote"That's the spirit!" she cried. "At times like this, you have to remember to treasure the days you have, you know."
That's probably the only Tsuruya-san part I found awkward. It's a bit sappy, unless she was also somehow shellshocked by recent events, which she isn't. My sense of Tsuruya is that she's generally... a bit too alarming to be taken as sappy. When she tells you to "treasure the days you have", I expect the Brigade to be in the midst of something particularly alarming being perpetuated by Haruhi which she's playing along with. That's not really the situation here.
(Note that the Disappearance-version Tsuruya doesn't hesitate to use martial arts to throw Kyon to the floor when she protects Mikuru, which shows nicely what she considers to be reasonable behaviour and how alarming she can really get.)
Not sure what sort of choice I'd be making to fix it.
QuoteHe smiled to himself. "No, no. The person in front of me is just fine." He leaned in. His breath tickled my lips. His fingers brushed the back of my arm, my elbow. I closed my eyes, and—
HONK-HONK!
And while tires screeched outside the window, I hit my head on the roof of the limo for the second time that night. I need to train myself not to do that—to jump from surprise or excitement in a motor vehicle. It hurts.
"Let me guess," said Kyon. "You got excited about something again?"
That's, um, nothing I want to describe in front of four other people. I mean, not unless you're into that sort of thing, but—
I blinked. The limo was idling. The cabin was quiet. Tsuruya-san and the others had disappeared. "Where are we?" I asked.
"Kitaguchi Station. At the very least, I had to come back and get my bike."
Bah, of course, I'd forgotten all about that. Silly dreams. They can be so out of touch with reality. "What about the others?"
This just begs an 'okay, love is definitely a form of mental illness'-type comment somewhere.
QuoteThe problem was there were black marker lines all over my forehead and cheeks.
How about "The problem was that there were..."
QuoteWhen the café staff started wiping down the tables and the neon sign in front flickered out, Kyon finished the last of his cup and looked squarely at me. "Whatever those people try to do to you from now on, Haruhi, remember this: they can't touch you. They can't threaten you or intimidate you or anything else. You have the power to change what they say even before it comes out of their mouths. You have the power, as Moir-san said, to erase someone whose intentions are a danger to you or any of us in the brigade. This is the power we've been reluctant to give you—no, this is the power I've been reluctant to give you, but now you have it. Use it sparingly. Use it wisely. Don't be afraid, though." He gestured to the others. "None of us would be here if we thought you couldn't handle it."
Typo: Mori-san, not Moir-san.
If I were Kyon I'd also stress the point that Haruhi is perfectly capable of defending herself by means
other than messing with peoples' free will and making them disappear. The only limiting factor, after all, appears to be her own imagination.
QuoteI snuck up to my room tossed it aside, and it landed on my bed upside-down, Mikuru-chan's initials plain as day.
I suggest "I snuck up to my room
and tossed it aside. It landed on my bed upside-down..." &c
QuoteThey didn't want me to feel threatened from Mori-san or Asakura, and that's enough for me.
I'd probably prefer 'threatened by' here...
QuoteI closed my fist over the coin and disappeared from sight.
Bit awkward to see "disappeared from sight" used by a first-person narrator who's alone in their bedroom. (Whose sight is she disappearing from, then?) I actually misread it the first time as
the coin disappearing from sight, due to this exact issue.
Easiest way to fix this is to say "vanished into {whatever is appropriate given where Haruhi is actually is going, that doesn't spoil the next chapter}". You'll have to substitute the medium Haruhi is vanishing into, given that you're the one who knows what she's trying to do...
Strong point in your writing: I like how you use motifs both from canon (the way this story is coming together now, Haruhi gets to have a bit of an epiphany in the same stadium she had her last mega-epiphany in), and your own. You managed to bring both the titular coin and the baseball cap back in nicely.
Weak point: you still rely a bit on Comedic Timing and Misunderstanding (those tired screenwriter tricks), not to mention that whole romantic dream fakeout, as devices to keep the story going, such as Tsuruya interrupting Haruhi and Kyon at an inconvenient moment. Here it leads to a nice scene of the two communicating via texting and meaningful glances, though, which means that I'd actually keep this chapter as is. But keep this in mind for future writing and try to find a variety of other ways to build up the bulk of your narrative, please =)
Well, maybe you could make the point where Haruhi falls asleep a bit easier to find in hindsight.
QuoteI felt exhausted. Between Asakura and finding all this out from Kyon Smith here, I think all the excitement finally caught up to me. I ran through in my head a bunch of other things I wanted to know: when Kyon must've gone back in time to meet me, why he did it, how Mikuru-chan helped, why I would've given Koizumi-kun powers, what the relationship between Yuki and Asakura was, and more, but my thoughts started drifting. The street lights passed us by at even intervals, rhythmic and hypnotic.
Maybe just put an ellipsis on the last sentence: "at even intervals, rhythmic and hypnotic..."
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 29, 2011, 09:07:43 PM
Again, the solution to this chapter not meshing with previous chapter is quite simple: Haruhi is shellshocked and the scope of the stadium incident startled her into being more considerate, in a way that Taniguchi being struck by lightning didn't. If you want to work with that idea it needs to be hinted at a little bit more that Haruhi is severely shocked at having to deal with a situation where Asakura is holding an entire stadium hostage, and that her shift in behaviour afterward is indeed the result of a minor epiphany about what she's doing wrong...
It seems mostly nailed down (depending on how the story goes from here), so my criticisms below are perhaps a bit more grouchy and vehement than they need to be.
I like that angle on it; I think I'll make some adjustments and play that up a bit more, at least at the start. Once the big bombshells start dropping, I don't know how much that will fit, but I'll give it a go.
Most of the rest I'll take and adjust without further comment. One thing that had been on my mind, though...
QuoteQuote"That's the spirit!" she cried. "At times like this, you have to remember to treasure the days you have, you know."
That's probably the only Tsuruya-san part I found awkward. It's a bit sappy, unless she was also somehow shellshocked by recent events, which she isn't. My sense of Tsuruya is that she's generally... a bit too alarming to be taken as sappy. When she tells you to "treasure the days you have", I expect the Brigade to be in the midst of something particularly alarming being perpetuated by Haruhi which she's playing along with. That's not really the situation here.
Kinda like I said, I was hesitant to have her be so...so...
Tsuruya after what happened, but that may be the less jarring way to go.
QuoteBit awkward to see "disappeared from sight" used by a first-person narrator who's alone in their bedroom. (Whose sight is she disappearing from, then?) I actually misread it the first time as the coin disappearing from sight, due to this exact issue.
Yeah, I see how it's kind of a perspective no-no there. The location I had in mind for her to go wouldn't have any meaning to describe here. Alternatively, I could change the order of what she does, but that would create a separation--well, it'd be out of order. In absence of a specific place to put in here that would be meaningful, perhaps I could say the room disappears around her, yet she realizes to someone else it must look like she's the one vanishing?
Quote
Weak point: you still rely a bit on Comedic Timing and Misunderstanding (those tired screenwriter tricks), not to mention that whole romantic dream fakeout, as devices to keep the story going, such as Tsuruya interrupting Haruhi and Kyon at an inconvenient moment. Here it leads to a nice scene of the two communicating via texting and meaningful glances, though, which means that I'd actually keep this chapter as is. But keep this in mind for future writing and try to find a variety of other ways to build up the bulk of your narrative, please =)
Point well-taken. How convenient Tsuruya's interruption is--it's something I'm definitely very aware of, and generally, the rule I try to go by is that the contrivance shouldn't have a meaningful effect on what happens, just
how it happens. Kyon was going to spill everything to Haruhi here anyway, so it works because it gives a more interesting scene for him to do it (and to give Haruhi some measure of initiative) than the alternative. But that logic clearly has some limitations or shortcomings--the last version is a good example of that. The logical leap that the contrivance doesn't have a meaningful effect on what happens is something that has to be scrutinized and picked apart to be sure that's actually the case.
Thanks again.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 12:54:32 AM
Kinda like I said, I was hesitant to have her be so...so...Tsuruya after what happened, but that may be the less jarring way to go.
I guess I was also influenced by the Kyon : Big Damn Hero scene where they go to bust a two-bit yakuza operation, and Kyon and Nagato are breaking bones left and right and it's generally a complete madhouse.
And Tsuruya just stands there laughing... and laughing... I know it was meant to be a silly takeoff on the "Tsuruya keeps breaking into laughter at inconvenient moments" notion but something about that detail struck me as strangely plausible.
Depending on how well you play it, it could even be a comforting source of reassurance that Tsuruya can witness an alien attacking an entire stadium of people, and still be Tsuruya two minutes afterwards...
EDIT: I'm probably giving bad advice, aren't I? Someone please come over here and slap me...
That's the thing: it could be gold, but it could also be a big Fridge Horror moment--what kind of person starts laughing or being crazy as Tsuruya can be after what just happened in that stadium? But all that said, I can't deny that that would be like Tsuruya. I just want to find the right way to make it work. Having it be darkly comforting is...almost there.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 30, 2011, 01:01:48 AMEDIT: I'm probably giving bad advice, aren't I? Someone please come over here and slap me...
I'm still out of reading this one because I don't trust myself not to snap at Muphrid when he doesn't deserve it, like last time. >_<
Erm.
Main issue is to make sure that you don't let my commentary have undue influence -- does the shift feel natural from the previous chapter?
As far as Tsuruya goes, there's nothing wrong with her acting out or doing things intentionally to defuse a moment she thinks would be problematic (or better deferred). Maybe she wouldn't think it was funny, but would know that the situation needed levity.
Look at how she handled things at the start of the snow mountain mystery -- unless my memory is off, she played the drawing game (and did fairly badly) and then showed it off to the others first to break the ice. So, an intentional tension-breaker on her part seems entirely feasible to me, here, too. (If I follow what's happening, anyway.)
Well, given the gravity of what's happened, it seems reasonable to me that Haruhi would take the time to stop, pause, and consider. As it is now, this revision gets all the facts out there to be dealt with, so the focus of subsequent chapters will be on some of the consequences that result from those facts. Here, the brigade and Haruhi have shown trust in each other, so in that respect, I consider this revised chapter rather innocuous. How I've retooled what's to come after it (which is actually pretty similar, on the whole, to what I had before, but the meaning is different) is probably the big thing. I'm comfortable with this chapter being what it is, so long as what I do want to explore can come out in due time.
I've had, in the headers for each chapter when I finish revising them and put them up on FFN, that part of the overall theme is that Haruhi, though she may have become more amenable to the ordinary world, has long believed in things she wasn't sure existed, while the others in the brigade have had the luxury of knowing that Haruhi existed and interacting with her on a concrete level. I will admit that, with the first version of this chapter, I was taking that idea toward its logical extreme. Even so, I think that's a theme worth exploring. I think that's a sentiment that would isolate Haruhi even now--yes, even the much more thoughtful Haruhi who has normal friends and does normal things, at least some of the time. I still believe the temptation to find something truly phenomenal is there for her, and with more "mundane" activities contrasted against that, shouldn't she wonder--could she have convinced herself to be content with the ordinary world when that really just covers up disappointment instead?
Now, I know that interpretation may run counter to some feelings already expressed here. The truth is that she does genuinely enjoy, for example, having met and befriended Sakanaka and so on, but I think the fear that she may have deluded herself would be a human fear and a forgivable one if painted the right way.
As far as how that sentiment touches on the rest of the brigade, I think, when you look at the kind of sacrifice it would be for someone like Asahina to go into the past--leaving her family, leaving her entire timeframe behind--Haruhi would understand on some level but also be a bit unnerved by it, to think so much attention was put on her when there are billions upon billions of other mysteries in the universe. And let's say she can know all those mysteries down to the last bit of knowable information. At some point, she would have to accept that, if she is indeed capable of such vast understanding of the universe as a whole, a point would come where she knew all there was to know, where there could be no mysteries to her. It would put her in the same shoes as the rest of the brigade--all the mysteries are those you know to be true or have already ruled out as false. There would be no more strange possibilities to contemplate, just the truth.
At any rate, that's the kind of scale and scope for the story that I want to have. I expect that some of these issues I perceive and am interested in may be seen as uncharacteristic of the fictional people we know. I fully concede the possibility and hope that I can learn to avoid such traps with more careful thought and consideration. Overall, though, what I'm trying to say is that, while this isn't the kind and character of a piece I initially envisioned, I don't think that's a bad thing (I consider this whole process to have been very educational) and I still perceive great possibility for this piece to delve into the character of Haruhi and these larger themes of how one derives meaning from life (or any other pursuit).
Quote from: Muphrid on October 01, 2011, 04:25:21 AMNow, I know that interpretation may run counter to some feelings already expressed here. The truth is that she does genuinely enjoy, for example, having met and befriended Sakanaka and so on, but I think the fear that she may have deluded herself would be a human fear and a forgivable one if painted the right way.
It's that very last bit that's the critical part.
I get that Haruhi would also probably become bored with infinite power, but the way the story was written so far, it didn't feel like it was leading up to that aesop. The logical buildup to that would have been Haruhi playing with her powers more and more, and having less and less fun with them -- Taniguchi was a good lead in, but Mori's little Hannibal Lecture kind of derailed that route.
And now that I've made a point, to vehemently argue against myself:
Going back to something earlier, and back to the point of presentation, though (going back over one thing that still sticks out a bit to me): At the end of chapter ... two, I think, there's the bit with Haruhi summoning Kyon, etc. 'Kyon was scared because of something I did that was irresponsible and careless (on accident); I will instead do something insanely drastic
despite his repeated requests not to, and then ignore him.'
See, that was presented (it felt like) as 'Kyon's an idiot for not getting this, and I'm going to zap his friend reflexively in a fit of temper because I'm not getting my way,' not, 'Damnit, this should be amazing! Why isn't Kyon the _least_ bit impressed or happy about it? And now his stupid friend is keeping me from finding out why?'
So, same exact events; for characterization, one of them makes me rant that she's a psycho, and one of them makes me cringe and have a little more sympathy for her. It's just a lot of the little tiny details in Haruhi's thoughts tend to lead away from being sympathetic. One of the easy ways to make her sympathetic is to show her vulnerabilities. This Haruhi doesn't show those vulnerabilities to almost anyone if she can help it, including the reader, which is ... difficult when she's the narrator. Admittedly, my memory is fuzzy at this point because it's been a while; generally, it was the understated positives to counter her negatives that got to me. She might have had a few earlier vulnerable points, but (unlike others, so this could be me), I didn't particularly feel that sorry for Haruhi when her coin-experiment didn't work because of her behavior.
Anyway ... if you wanted to play out the Haruhi having mistrust angle, I wouldn't have complained (nearly as much) if she were lashing out while her thoughts reflected that she was
hurt instead of
angry. So, it could have been played that she acted angry, but her thoughts let the reader see, "Wait, this is the emotionally overloaded Haruhi lashing out, not just more of the same callousness she's been showing." So for that....
Yeah. Then the Ryouko thing could be played off -- I could actually see Haruhi being hurt by what she percieves as a lack of trust in telling her the truth on all of their parts, if it hadn't come across as 'you aren't what I expected and that's not fair.' Too much anger, not enough hurt; instead of thinking that these were her friends and the rug was being yanked out from under her, she was instead using all of that buildup time to dismiss clues and drop jokes about Kyon being 'intimate' with 'some alien' (>_<).
From there, I wouldn't have had as much trouble with Haruhi deciding (probably based on something Yuki said) that since Ryouko would keep her word, she'd do it anyway. It really
is all about presentation.
I get the impression you don't really want to focus on the Haruhi/Kyon romance angle a lot for your story because it detracts from what you're interested in exploring, but you can just limit that to Haruhi aknowledging that she wants to show Kyon something amazing. She doesn't have to admit any romantic interest to be capable of having positive thoughts towards him on occasion and wanting to broaden his horizons.
So, trying to suggest things that won't make you rewrite more and more. So, yeah. I just really need main characters that I can identify with and sympathize with in my stories, and with values dissonance, well....
Heck, Apology was written because I was having a minor crisis over Haruhi not being sympathetic enough in canon! >_< If anything I have to say is useful, great, but I think my main point is don't listen to me too much, it should be pretty clear from all these other threads I don't really know what I'm doing. ;)
QuoteAnyway ... if you wanted to play out the Haruhi having mistrust angle, I wouldn't have complained (nearly as much) if she were lashing out while her thoughts reflected that she was hurt instead of angry. So, it could have been played that she acted angry, but her thoughts let the reader see, "Wait, this is the emotionally overloaded Haruhi lashing out, not just more of the same callousness she's been showing." So for that....
This is probably the biggest thing I've tried to take away from the discussions so far; it feels like, with Haruhi, one has to be more careful with her emotional reactions. Because she has done unsympathetic things in the past, I think the audience as a whole is more inclined to take negative emotions and feelings from her at face value and less likely to feel that that reaction may be covering something else up--at least, in comparison to a typical character. I mean, it's like what you were concerned about earlier with the interactions between Haruhi and Kyon: there was indeed some level of bite to them on Haruhi's part, which I'd meant as indicating that she was covering her feelings up (even to the audience!) rather than genuine dislike or contempt or what-have-you, but the magnitude of that and the lack of balancing out with at least some neutral or positive thoughts just ended up giving a counter-productive impression. At least, that's how I see it now.
That's what I wanted to communicate, and I went way overboard on that count. >_<
The audience can only go by the cues they're given. Then again, I'm the exceptionally vocal minority. >.>
It is very much a YMMV issue, probably. :X
So I'm not sure how this happened, but this is written. And I had a list of things I was concerned about, but that was before I hit refresh, so let's just leave this as it is. Next part attached below.
Edit: I've made some minor modifications based on my hard copy. I still have some outstanding concerns:
If I knew enough about Japanese theater, I'd have preferred to use a Japanese play, but as it is, I stuck with something I knew. Is The Crucible effective here? Is the description of Mori's performance detailed enough?
I hadn't originally planned on diverting into Haruhi's take on the end of Melancholy, but at the time, seeing as that's the only other time when she's been in closed space, it seemed appropriate. Does this take on what she would be feeling make sense? Does it feel like a plausible extension of her mindset earlier in the story?
Is it acceptable to hint that Haruhi is still unsatisfied, still searching for something, without being specific at this point in time?
When I wrote this, I was concerned that Mori came off too combative and disrespectful, and while on re-read I didn't feel that was as much the case, I have tried to make Mori more sympathetic. Does she come off well here? Is it not too contrived that Haruhi decides not to turn her back into a normal person right at that moment?
Those are my main concerns, anyway. I may make more changes in response to them, but otherwise I'm planning to have this finalized in the next couple days.
Sorry, this is actually based on your earlier version. Not sure, some of this might have been fixed in your revision.
Quoteif you're rigidly adhering to the dictations of how acting should be done from three centuries past or more?
Could be improved. First of all, might the word you're looking for be 'dictates'?
Quote from: possible_rewrite
... if you're rigidly adhering to the dictates of acting from three centuries ago, or even further back?
QuoteShe knew me well enough to pretend it was late in the day, so I'd press her into telling me what was on her mind.
Not entirely sure what 'pretend it was late in the day' is referring to.
Quote"She is cold, your Honor," said another, a man who offered Mori-san's hand.
I assume the man is holding out Mori-san's hand to the judge? Seemed a tiny bit muddled the first time I read it.
QuoteThat was awkward—talking about Koizumi-kun like he could go either way, following one path or another and we'd never be sure what he'd pick. I tried to avoid it.
Awkward 'avoid it' without any clear referent for 'it'. Maybe replace with 'avoid this line of conversation' or similar?
QuoteShe was looking inward, at herself, more than me, and I have to admit, there was a little part of me that liked seeing her doubt herself, seeing a glimpse of confusion amid certainty.
Comma in "at herself, more than me" might be unnecessary.
QuoteThat part of me gives me a chill, for that's the part that proves Mori-san right about who I might be at my worst.
Ehhh... ghhh... perfectly clear, but also kind of awkward. Might need to take another shot at rewording it.
QuoteI'm sure what Koizumi has done will come as some relief to all of us, for this is a moment long anticipated in our circles.
Trying to remember which specific action of Koizumi's Arakawa-san is referring to here.
QuoteWe maintain stability of her thoughts
Perhaps 'maintain the stability'?
QuoteI know a little about acting. I know some of the most powerful emotions a person can muster come from memories that are close to the heart. I read about a voice actor once—in trying to channel her emotions, she thought back to her grandmother's passing, and she couldn't stop the tears from falling even after the exercise had ended. Mori-san had told me one big lie when she beckoned me three nights before, but the rest of it was believable.
Considering how objectively awful Haruhi's attempt to direct a movie was in 'Sigh' (and she shows absolutely no signs of improvement in Novel 9), I'm... a bit jarred by the irony of her pontificating about the dramatic arts like this, actually. Not sure what to do about this since it
isCanon!Haruhi's approach to film directing was and remains, quite honestly, one of aggressive and stubborn ignorance of obvious and basic principles.
Quotelike with my hair. I could've told him nothing about it, and that would've been fine, but I'd answered him. Then there wasn't any mystery in it, so I'd cut most of it off.
Hmm, how about "I cut most of it off right afterwards"?
QuoteWhat'd happened to me affected thousands of people all over the world every second of every day.
Umm... I had to reread that sentence. Initially I thought it referred to how Haruhi's emotional state affects the broader universe. You should probably change it to "What'd happened to me was the same thing that afflicted thousands of people..."
Quotestaring up into the face of a white giant.
Wait, white? If this is a deliberate divergence from canon, on account of the Celestial's weakened state or something, it should probably be lampshaded somehow by the espers... or its colour should be mentioned in conjunction with other signs or being sickly and weak... or something along those lines..
Quoteat night and in the morning, to measure the changes in the space overnight, as you sleep."
I'd prefer "measuring the changes in the space overnight as you sleep".
Quoteoizumi-kun told you that. It worked too well today.
'Today' I would assume refers to Haruhi's inaction during the stadium incident. Again, a bit of effort was needed to suss this out.
QuoteNevertheless, this is nothing you chose for yourself.
Suggest 'this is not something you chose for yourself', or similar.
QuoteWhen I wrote this, I was concerned that Mori came off too combative and disrespectful, and while on re-read I didn't feel that was as much the case, I have tried to make Mori more sympathetic. Does she come off well here? Is it not too contrived that Haruhi decides not to turn her back into a normal person right at that moment?
Enhh... Mori is still nasty enough (teleportation is morally equivalent to electrocuting someone with a cattle prod? really?) that things balance out in this one. And for Haruhi it's sort of damned if she does, damned if she doesn't with respect to removing Mori's powers. Though with the way this chapter went, if Mori somehow ends up resenting Haruhi even more for
taking away her esper status, it's going to be Mori's own damn fault.
I'd say things are fine as they stand.
It occurs to me: the way you handled the ending of the last chapter might be tweaked a bit to be more consistent with the notion that Haruhi is going to be visiting, one after another, the people who were trying to push her around, and then speaking her mind to them. Difficult to explain, but the problem I'm seeing here is that Haruhi makes this declaration, and then we have an extended chapter focusing on Mori-san which doesn't quite entirely fit with it. Only when we see her visit Asakura next, do we get what Haruhi is aiming at.
QuoteI rode the elevator to the fifth floor and knocked on the door with no nameplate, and sure enough, the thing that answered had a wide, inhuman smile.
"Why hello there!" she greeted me. "I've been waiting for you."
I get that Haruhi wants to do this behind the Brigade's back to some respect, and particularly doesn't want Yuki involved in this, but this feels a bit ugly given that you haven't shown any scene
at all (yet) in between Yuki stopping Asakura, and this, where Haruhi and Yuki discuss the fact.
*goes to check*
Yep.
I mean, even if Haruhi doesn't want Yuki to be handling Asakura for her, wouldn't she at least be curious to talk to the alien about the stadium incident, as opposed to being satisfied with just getting everything secondhand from Kyon?
Then again, you flash back to a coffee-shop conversation with Koizumi that was precisely of that nature; I guess this chapter is all right if you end up revealing a similar conversation with Yuki in the next one.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 12, 2011, 10:12:04 PM
Sorry, this is actually based on your earlier version. Not sure, some of this might have been fixed in your revision.
Quoteif you're rigidly adhering to the dictations of how acting should be done from three centuries past or more?
Could be improved. First of all, might the word you're looking for be 'dictates'?
Quote from: possible_rewrite
... if you're rigidly adhering to the dictates of acting from three centuries ago, or even further back?
Yeah, the construction of that sentence bothered me, too. And
dictates does seem like an improvement.
QuoteQuoteShe knew me well enough to pretend it was late in the day, so I'd press her into telling me what was on her mind.
Not entirely sure what 'pretend it was late in the day' is referring to.
It refers to how, when Haruhi found Mori at the station Wednesday afternoon, Mori almost lost the nerve and tried to excuse herself, saying it was late. The line probably needs a bit more meat to it to be clear that that's what it's referring to.
QuoteQuote"She is cold, your Honor," said another, a man who offered Mori-san's hand.
I assume the man is holding out Mori-san's hand to the judge? Seemed a tiny bit muddled the first time I read it.
Indeed. Will add that.
QuoteQuoteThat was awkward—talking about Koizumi-kun like he could go either way, following one path or another and we'd never be sure what he'd pick. I tried to avoid it.
Awkward 'avoid it' without any clear referent for 'it'. Maybe replace with 'avoid this line of conversation' or similar?
Yeah, I think above it says that she tried to avoid the thought, and that sentence is a bit reworked anyhow.
QuoteQuoteThat part of me gives me a chill, for that's the part that proves Mori-san right about who I might be at my worst.
Ehhh... ghhh... perfectly clear, but also kind of awkward. Might need to take another shot at rewording it.
I had cut the part after "chill" because it's also said later on.
QuoteQuoteI'm sure what Koizumi has done will come as some relief to all of us, for this is a moment long anticipated in our circles.
Trying to remember which specific action of Koizumi's Arakawa-san is referring to here.
Revealing the truth. Hm, what to do there...
QuoteQuoteI know a little about acting. I know some of the most powerful emotions a person can muster come from memories that are close to the heart. I read about a voice actor once—in trying to channel her emotions, she thought back to her grandmother's passing, and she couldn't stop the tears from falling even after the exercise had ended. Mori-san had told me one big lie when she beckoned me three nights before, but the rest of it was believable.
Considering how objectively awful Haruhi's attempt to direct a movie was in 'Sigh' (and she shows absolutely no signs of improvement in Novel 9), I'm... a bit jarred by the irony of her pontificating about the dramatic arts like this, actually. Not sure what to do about this since it is
Canon!Haruhi's approach to film directing was and remains, quite honestly, one of aggressive and stubborn ignorance of obvious and basic principles.
That's a good observation. I'm going to have to ruminate on that one.
QuoteQuoteWhat'd happened to me affected thousands of people all over the world every second of every day.
Umm... I had to reread that sentence. Initially I thought it referred to how Haruhi's emotional state affects the broader universe. You should probably change it to "What'd happened to me was the same thing that afflicted thousands of people..."
That's fair.
QuoteQuotestaring up into the face of a white giant.
Wait, white? If this is a deliberate divergence from canon, on account of the Celestial's weakened state or something, it should probably be lampshaded somehow by the espers... or its colour should be mentioned in conjunction with other signs or being sickly and weak... or something along those lines..
Eheh. I know why I made this mistake. I've been in the habit of white giants as a device since working in
Evangelion. Do you think blue by itself would do, or bluish white?
QuoteQuoteWhen I wrote this, I was concerned that Mori came off too combative and disrespectful, and while on re-read I didn't feel that was as much the case, I have tried to make Mori more sympathetic. Does she come off well here? Is it not too contrived that Haruhi decides not to turn her back into a normal person right at that moment?
Enhh... Mori is still nasty enough (teleportation is morally equivalent to electrocuting someone with a cattle prod? really?) that things balance out in this one. And for Haruhi it's sort of damned if she does, damned if she doesn't with respect to removing Mori's powers. Though with the way this chapter went, if Mori somehow ends up resenting Haruhi even more for taking away her esper status, it's going to be Mori's own damn fault.
I'd say things are fine as they stand.
That passage, about the slippery slope and all--I can't say I was entirely happy with that passage. I mean, what I feel like Mori should be shooting for is like using powers is a taste of the dark side, that more and more Haruhi will feel her abilities are innocuous even as she escalates. Or that's what she fears. It's a hyperbolic example (which is why I'm not sure I want to stick with it), but I feel the core emotion is not unjustified.
For a bit, I wondered if Haruhi would try to take Mori's power away as an act of compassion, but without Mori outright asking for it, such a choice seemed like begging for a disaster, and in some way, it'd be a violation. I don't know if there's even a word for that kind of violation.
QuoteIt occurs to me: the way you handled the ending of the last chapter might be tweaked a bit to be more consistent with the notion that Haruhi is going to be visiting, one after another, the people who were trying to push her around, and then speaking her mind to them. Difficult to explain, but the problem I'm seeing here is that Haruhi makes this declaration, and then we have an extended chapter focusing on Mori-san which doesn't quite entirely fit with it. Only when we see her visit Asakura next, do we get what Haruhi is aiming at.
I realized I neglected to say this: when I had this planned out, what this chapter is now would've only been the first half. As long as this is, I felt it couldn't be combined that way because the two parts are now too different, but I think that explains why this feels like it doesn't follow.
I think I understand what you're saying, though--right now, the end of 4 leaves people in the dark about what exactly Haruhi's going to do, and that's...dangerous. It's risky. I'd feared that starting with Mori would be fairly anticlimactic and tried to go for an ending that would less continuous or flowing and more of a thematic break. I won't say I'm absolutely happy with that, either, though. It's a use of vagueness and uncertainty that covers up something pretty mundane. I can definitely see possibilities for tightening up the narrative there.
QuoteI get that Haruhi wants to do this behind the Brigade's back to some respect, and particularly doesn't want Yuki involved in this, but this feels a bit ugly given that you haven't shown any scene at all (yet) in between Yuki stopping Asakura, and this, where Haruhi and Yuki discuss the fact.
*goes to check*
Yep.
I mean, even if Haruhi doesn't want Yuki to be handling Asakura for her, wouldn't she at least be curious to talk to the alien about the stadium incident, as opposed to being satisfied with just getting everything secondhand from Kyon?
Then again, you flash back to a coffee-shop conversation with Koizumi that was precisely of that nature; I guess this chapter is all right if you end up revealing a similar conversation with Yuki in the next one.
Well, it wasn't my intention that she didn't
especially want to involve Nagato. What I wanted was for Haruhi to feel that the others had done enough, and now it was her turn to protect them. I know there's one line there where Haruhi says she's not there to see Nagato, and I meant that to emphasize that, most of the other times she's been to that building, it
has been to see Nagato, not that she didn't want to see her in particular or anything like that. I guess that means the line could be clarified.
Frankly, though, starting off with a coffee shop flashback is much better than what I have written for the beginning of six. Actually, trouble with that beginning (and grading...and more grading) had kind of put me off working through it. So thanks much for that and all of this feedback, Arakawa.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 13, 2011, 01:24:58 AM
Quote
Considering how objectively awful Haruhi's attempt to direct a movie was in 'Sigh' (and she shows absolutely no signs of improvement in Novel 9), I'm... a bit jarred by the irony of her pontificating about the dramatic arts like this, actually. Not sure what to do about this since it is
Heh, meant to write "since it
is quite relevant to the content of the chapter". Sorry.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 13, 2011, 01:24:58 AM
Eheh. I know why I made this mistake. I've been in the habit of white giants as a device since working in Evangelion. Do you think blue by itself would do, or bluish white?
Hmm... bluish white might probably be fine. Just 'blue' is a bit... technicolor (it's a closed space, not a Blue Man group concert!). Maybe '<adverb/adjective> blue', with some fitting word instead of <adverb/adjective>.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 13, 2011, 01:24:58 AM
That passage, about the slippery slope and all--I can't say I was entirely happy with that passage. I mean, what I feel like Mori should be shooting for is like using powers is a taste of the dark side, that more and more Haruhi will feel her abilities are innocuous even as she escalates. Or that's what she fears. It's a hyperbolic example (which is why I'm not sure I want to stick with it), but I feel the core emotion is not unjustified.
No, based on that passage in your chapter I can understand the core emotion and the thought, but I also think it's fitting that Mori fails to express it cogently. I mean, if she were able to think clearly about the situation, she'd have come up with a way of getting her view across to Haruhi that.... wouldn't have exploded in her face quite so spectacularly.
As for having your split the chapter into a Mori part and an Asakura part... yeah, this seems to be a digestible size. Ugh, my own fic has the next chapter ballooning out of control at 12,000 words and likely to almost reach 20,000... :-P ... and I have no idea where to split it.
QuoteHeh, meant to write "since it is quite relevant to the content of the chapter". Sorry.
Ah, that does clear things up a bit.
QuoteHmm... bluish white might probably be fine. Just 'blue' is a bit... technicolor (it's a closed space, not a Blue Man group concert!). Maybe '<adverb/adjective> blue', with some fitting word instead of <adverb/adjective>.
"Translucent," perhaps? Hm, the Brown translation uses "shining." That could be passable.
QuoteNo, based on that passage in your chapter I can understand the core emotion and the thought, but I also think it's fitting that Mori fails to express it cogently. I mean, if she were able to think clearly about the situation, she'd have come up with a way of getting her view across to Haruhi that.... wouldn't have exploded in her face quite so spectacularly.
Okay, interesting. I definitely like that interpretation.
QuoteAs for having your split the chapter into a Mori part and an Asakura part... yeah, this seems to be a digestible size. Ugh, my own fic has the next chapter ballooning out of control at 12,000 words and likely to almost reach 20,000... :-P ... and I have no idea where to split it.
I think we've all been there. When I got started in fanfiction a few years ago, I started off just writing, and that was fine. The first chapter I wrote was about 6500 words, and that's fine. Nothing too odd. Then, I got all crazy about structure and where to divide scenes and on and on. I started dividing chapters into numbered sections. Maybe a section would be just a scene, or maybe it's take two or three scenes to get what I wanted across. At any rate, after some experimenting, I eventually settled on sections that weren't more than 3000 words usually and no more than 6-ish sections a chapter. All very rough, of course. And with the exception of an 8-part, 23k-word piece of particular madness, that's about where it stayed.
Then I started
Identity, this
Ranma story, and the numbered sections...got longer. Soon I had this 35k-word
thing, and I wondered, you know, how could this happen? And eventually, I wondered who would really
want to read that much in one sitting? Not many people. So in
Identity I still call those sections (or "acts"), but I give them titles now and post them separately, as if they were chapters. And that seemed to work while I could keep up with that story.
But anyway, structure gets weird, as I'm sure you know, and it all runs in circles, since that 35k-word first chapter of
Identity had 5 seconds in it, so in the end, the sections ended up as long as the chapters that I'd started with! And while I do regard each story as having different structural needed, it's still something I find a bit amusing, if only to laugh a bit at myself for spending so much time thinking about it. As has often been said, a story can be as long as it needs to be, after all.
The draft of chapter six is attached. Some points in particular that I'm still uncertain about:
The scene with Haruhi and Nagato--does Nagato's coldness come off as reasonable? To me, Nagato is unhappy that Haruhi would eat dinner rather than fix Kyon's dilemma. Does it even make sense that Haruhi does that?
Initially, I had an extended scene where Haruhi resolved the problem of her father by going to Kyon's and pretending to have been there, resulting in a somewhat...intimate scene. Given the clash that would pose against the above, I decided against it. Does Haruhi's quick resolution of that problem seem sufficient?
Are the various excuses and reasons the brigade members give for being occupied reasonable? In part, I felt that they weren't by themselves, which is why Haruhi excuses them--the idea being that, in her effort to be more reasonable and understanding, Haruhi obfuscates what she really feels. There is a level of frustration there that she simply tries to bottle up.
The Piggy planet scenes are modified from the initial (terrible) draft of chapter four. Since the circumstances are very different, does Haruhi's attitude toward being there feel appropriate?
Okay, *cracks metaphorical fingers, which I never actually do in real life* let's see what's happening here.
QuoteThat's when I told him to read one of Mother's hobby stories. He didn't say a word after that.
Okay, that alleviates my earlier worries about how you handle Haruhi's parents.
QuoteThat's why I wasn't about to walk into that dark, shadowy apartment with her, and I wasn't sorry to disappoint.
"My, you're so different now," she said, pouting. "Isn't there a little voice inside you, saying you can take just a little peek? We've been watching you for a long time, you know. There was a time you'd find this so exciting. It does excite you, doesn't it?"
"I wasn't sorry to disappoint" is kind of stilted; it seems to repeat the thought in the first part of the sentence, but doesn't really enhance the delivery that much. Either that or I misunderstand the sentence completely.
"saying you can just take a little peek" is also stilted. Maybe "begging for just a little peek" / "asking if you can take just a little peek" / endless similar variations
"there was a time you'd find this so exciting" --> suggest something like "There was a time when you'd have found this sort of thing exciting!" for the same reasons
Quote"All right, if I can't interest you in privacy, we can speak out here." She held out her hand flat, and from nothing, a shimmering light appeared.
"held out her hand flat" -- I also get this, but, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, stilted (though not particularly wrong). Not sure how to revise this -- I myself would get fancy with "held out her hand as a shimmering light appeared from nothing, balanced on the palm of her her hand / {maybe to avoid repetition of hand} tips of her fingers" and then "the light formed itself into a teacup and saucer" (to avoid repetition). Again, not sure what to suggest specifically.
Maybe just "held out her hand, palm facing upwards, as a shimmering light appeared in it from nothing."
Anyhow I get the idea that flat on the palm of your hand is not a smart way to hold tea --
Quote"Oh! I think I may have burned myself. How unpleasant. How do you learn not to do that?"
Asakura: "How do I not burn myself?"
Random passer-by: "You could start by not trying to balance the tea awkwardly on the palm of your hand?"
Haruhi (eyes narrow): "Serves her right for not making it the ordinary way."
-- as you are likely to spill it, I guess? I *think* that's the intent of that scene?
Quoteand I lurched on my feet and grabbed the railing. My fingertips brushed the edge of the porcelain saucer. The teacup wobbled and fell, shattering on the floor.
Action is sort of muddled and could be revised. She grabs the railing, but then she actually grabs the saucer and smashes Asakura's teacup? She "lurches on her feet" - I guess that means her feet hit the floor suddenly and she loses her balance?
It just occurs to me: the porcelain teacup + saucer thing is not exactly the standard for the Haruhi series. In both the clubroom and Yuki's apartment we clearly see them using Japanese style teacups. Asakura would thus be seen by Haruhi as affecting an English style of tea drinking, and that would have to be mentioned.
Haruhi: "Opportunity for Alice in Wonderland reference?"
Asakura: "Sure, it's about as apt as some of the *other* one's you've been making."
Haruhi (hostile): "No one asked your opinion. It'll definitely have to be one of those American horror reimaginings of the story, though."
Asakura: "... I'm afraid that's going to be difficult to pull off."
QuoteI'd planned to make something at home, but I hadn't stayed there very long, and it wasn't like I could sneak out at the theater to grab popcorn or anything else.
Popcorn puts me in mind of a movie theater, which made me confused until I realized you were talking about the play Mori-san was acting in. That's a... very few actual theaters I've been to have sold popcorn. I have no idea about the theaters where you are, and I have no idea about larger theaters or the theater scene in Japan (and your notion of one specializing in Western plays is entirely fanciful in any case, meant to allow you to make allusions within a corpus of literature you understand), but their experimental subject matter puts me in mind one of the small-to-medium indie theater in Toronto. A theater cafe in such a place would have probably tea/coffee and overpriced cheese and crackers, and various similar "nibbly stuff". Sandwiches if they were feeling particularly ambitions (e.g. in the Distillery District). Popcorn would be a definite no-no (it's designed to be gobbled up while sitting in your seat watching, which is acceptable at a movie, but definitely not while seeing a play). I assume this to be about par for North American cities.
Of course, Haruhi very likely doesn't know much about either Western or Japanese theatre facilities, but her ignorance is such a stumbling point given my (occasional) experience as a theatre goer that it took me a while to figure out what she was referring to.
Meh. This is another one of those weird personal sticking points. In summary, I find the notion of an experimental theatre selling popcorn during intermission to be fundamentally weird to even consider.
QuoteEven though Kyon had spilled the beans on everything, she found it very difficult to speak coherently without catching herself.
Tentative alternate revision "Even though Kyon had already spilled the beans on everything, she still found it very difficult to speak coherently without catching herself." I'm not sure if that's close to your original intent or not.
Umm... right now I've run out of time, but I'll probably resume C&Cing tomorrow morning. For now I decided to send the revisions I've done so far, so you at least know that I'm doing this.
Regarding your worries, the main thing I'd adjust is the emphasis of Haruhi's interactions with Nagato. (Basically, according to my interpretation of events, Nagato shouldn't even have to express that much reluctance to get Haruhi to back off by this point in canon. I get the feeling that Haruhi has a sense that Yuki is incredibly emotionally fragile, and she is unlikely to risk doing anything that might upset Yuki -- even without all the revelations in this section. A similar dynamic might be seen in Kyon's case, although there it's just Haruhi going out of her way to be accommodating where she wasn't before. Then again, YMMV in either case.)
I'll send a better explanation of what I mean later.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 11:04:22 PM
QuoteThat's why I wasn't about to walk into that dark, shadowy apartment with her, and I wasn't sorry to disappoint.
"My, you're so different now," she said, pouting. "Isn't there a little voice inside you, saying you can take just a little peek? We've been watching you for a long time, you know. There was a time you'd find this so exciting. It does excite you, doesn't it?"
"I wasn't sorry to disappoint" is kind of stilted; it seems to repeat the thought in the first part of the sentence, but doesn't really enhance the delivery that much. Either that or I misunderstand the sentence completely.
"saying you can just take a little peek" is also stilted. Maybe "begging for just a little peek" / "asking if you can take just a little peek" / endless similar variations
"there was a time you'd find this so exciting" --> suggest something like "There was a time when you'd have found this sort of thing exciting!" for the same reasons
My feeling is that the first sentence needs something to end it, but I agree, as it stands it's a bit strange. I'm going to have to ruminate on that one to see what works. The other changes I agree with.
QuoteQuote"All right, if I can't interest you in privacy, we can speak out here." She held out her hand flat, and from nothing, a shimmering light appeared.
"held out her hand flat" -- I also get this, but, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, stilted (though not particularly wrong). Not sure how to revise this -- I myself would get fancy with "held out her hand as a shimmering light appeared from nothing, balanced on the palm of her her hand / {maybe to avoid repetition of hand} tips of her fingers" and then "the light formed itself into a teacup and saucer" (to avoid repetition). Again, not sure what to suggest specifically.
Maybe just "held out her hand, palm facing upwards, as a shimmering light appeared in it from nothing."
Anyhow I get the idea that flat on the palm of your hand is not a smart way to hold tea --
I think it seemed easier to describe that than something more complicated, but given the issues with saucers in the first place, I'll probably just have a teacup materialize between her fingertips and leave it at that.
QuoteQuote"Oh! I think I may have burned myself. How unpleasant. How do you learn not to do that?"
Asakura: "How do I not burn myself?"
Random passer-by: "You could start by not trying to balance the tea awkwardly on the palm of your hand?"
Haruhi (eyes narrow): "Serves her right for not making it the ordinary way."
-- as you are likely to spill it, I guess? I *think* that's the intent of that scene?
She burns her tongue sipping. I'll add some more language to that effect. I mean, we can get deeper into it as how Asakura views humanity as a curiosity like a person views an ant colony as a curiosity right before emptying a bottle of water over the mound to make the workers scurry around, but I imagine that part came across well enough.
QuoteQuoteand I lurched on my feet and grabbed the railing. My fingertips brushed the edge of the porcelain saucer. The teacup wobbled and fell, shattering on the floor.
Action is sort of muddled and could be revised. She grabs the railing, but then she actually grabs the saucer and smashes Asakura's teacup? She "lurches on her feet" - I guess that means her feet hit the floor suddenly and she loses her balance?
It just occurs to me: the porcelain teacup + saucer thing is not exactly the standard for the Haruhi series. In both the clubroom and Yuki's apartment we clearly see them using Japanese style teacups. Asakura would thus be seen by Haruhi as affecting an English style of tea drinking, and that would have to be mentioned.
Haruhi: "Opportunity for Alice in Wonderland reference?"
Asakura: "Sure, it's about as apt as some of the *other* one's you've been making."
Haruhi (hostile): "No one asked your opinion. It'll definitely have to be one of those American horror reimaginings of the story, though."
Asakura: "... I'm afraid that's going to be difficult to pull off."
Yeah, I'm willing to do away with the saucer as there was no special point to that. The idea was yeah, it's like Haruhi is a couple inches off the ground or is disoriented enough that she has to find balance. In grabbing the railing, she nudges the teacup off balance and it breaks. That's all it should be. I think I can get that across by emphasizing Haruhi's panicked reaction to Asakura's, er, demonstration?
QuoteQuoteI'd planned to make something at home, but I hadn't stayed there very long, and it wasn't like I could sneak out at the theater to grab popcorn or anything else.
Popcorn puts me in mind of a movie theater, which made me confused until I realized you were talking about the play Mori-san was acting in. That's a... very few actual theaters I've been to have sold popcorn. I have no idea about the theaters where you are, and I have no idea about larger theaters or the theater scene in Japan (and your notion of one specializing in Western plays is entirely fanciful in any case, meant to allow you to make allusions within a corpus of literature you understand), but their experimental subject matter puts me in mind one of the small-to-medium indie theater in Toronto. A theater cafe in such a place would have probably tea/coffee and overpriced cheese and crackers, and various similar "nibbly stuff". Sandwiches if they were feeling particularly ambitions (e.g. in the Distillery District). Popcorn would be a definite no-no (it's designed to be gobbled up while sitting in your seat watching, which is acceptable at a movie, but definitely not while seeing a play). I assume this to be about par for North American cities.
Of course, Haruhi very likely doesn't know much about either Western or Japanese theatre facilities, but her ignorance is such a stumbling point given my (occasional) experience as a theatre goer that it took me a while to figure out what she was referring to.
Meh. This is another one of those weird personal sticking points. In summary, I find the notion of an experimental theatre selling popcorn during intermission to be fundamentally weird to even consider.
Consider the popcorn properly excised. As the general point of that was only to emphasize that Haruhi has missed opportunities to eat, I think I'll brainstorm on other ways to get that across.
QuoteQuoteEven though Kyon had spilled the beans on everything, she found it very difficult to speak coherently without catching herself.
Tentative alternate revision "Even though Kyon had already spilled the beans on everything, she still found it very difficult to speak coherently without catching herself." I'm not sure if that's close to your original intent or not.
Yes, that's much better.
QuoteUmm... right now I've run out of time, but I'll probably resume C&Cing tomorrow morning. For now I decided to send the revisions I've done so far, so you at least know that I'm doing this.
Regarding your worries, the main thing I'd adjust is the emphasis of Haruhi's interactions with Nagato. (Basically, according to my interpretation of events, Nagato shouldn't even have to express that much reluctance to get Haruhi to back off by this point in canon. I get the feeling that Haruhi has a sense that Yuki is incredibly emotionally fragile, and she is unlikely to risk doing anything that might upset Yuki -- even without all the revelations in this section. A similar dynamic might be seen in Kyon's case, although there it's just Haruhi going out of her way to be accommodating where she wasn't before. Then again, YMMV in either case.)
I'll send a better explanation of what I mean later.
Thanks, I definitely appreciate it. It's interesting--your take on Nagato and Haruhi, that is. I felt that, with Haruhi knowing Nagato was an alien, she would be less inclined to read human emotions and motives from Nagato's behavior. Even so, these connections with the brigade members are important to Haruhi, and out of a combination of gratitude and respect, she's offering what she can. I didn't write it as Haruhi thinks Nagato is fragile, but now that you mention it, I think I should. Fragility meshes well with the notion that a breakdown on Nagato's part set into motion the events of
Disappearance. In that sense, then, Haruhi would be concerned that Nagato is stable at the least or, more generally, that she's happy. I'll have to figure out the right places to put those sentiments. I'm a bit leery of having Haruhi become just this ray of total sunshine and daffodils, but that angle on her concern ought to be fine.
I'm not sure what you mean regarding Kyon, but I look forward to what further thoughts you have on that in any case.
Okay, I was hoping to get most of it done during the morning's subway ride, but that didn't pan out and I got sucked into the usual sort of hectic day I have -- so you're only getting the rest of the C&C now when I have time to finish it. Some of the stylistic suggestions below may be contentious, and best ignored; please use your own judgment.
QuoteIn a way, she was the one member of the brigade who, after these revelations, I felt I knew the least about.
Umm... you could even make the case that Haruhi feels as though she knows even
less about Yuki than she did before.
Quote"You threatened them," she explained, "and now they are threatened."
Kind of... borderline and perhaps a bit too casual for Yuki (it makes the IDSE sound like an emotional entity). The underlying thought is that since it has been threatened, the IDSE no longer feels any benefit from inaction when it is not certain that a given plan will work -- inaction is, for whatever reason, now estimated to be just as risky as action. Yuki might want to express some thought to that effect (not going to trust myself to write accurate Yuki dialogue for you), though it might be difficult to do so without implying she's in a talkative mood.
Quotesay, a license plate hanging in the window
... trying to figure out what kind of license plate a person would hang in a bedroom window for sentimental reasons ... confused ... is this some kind of reference?
Quotewere unusuallly forceful.
'unusually'. (Note that if Mikuru or Kyon had secret stuff, Haruhi would probably be all over it in an instant.)
Haruhi's refusal to rush over to Kyon's house, just to deal with her dad: understandable. Just jumping into the situation could backfire in a lot of ways, and destroys the advantage that Haruhi can claim to never have done anything weird in Kyon's house, and be telling the level truth.
Quoteoutside this apartment for all those concerned.
Seems to be a bit of an awkward phrase. How about just "a negligible amount of time will pass in all reference frames located outside the apartment" or something of that sort.
QuoteHe's told that one a thousand times—it's the one where she gives him her number on the back side of a M\"obius strip, right?
A bit of LaTeX seems to have slipped into the final HTML, here and in other uses of "Mobius strip". Hmm... since I'm used to working in Markdown, I'm not sure how to fix that, but you should double check what's going on.
Quote"And then he spent twenty minutes explaining topology to my sister because she choudln't pronounce M\"obius strip properly."
*remembers personal encounters with real-life topology nerds, groans inwardly*
Anyhow, typo: "chouldn't" --> "couldn't", as you might have noticed.
EDIT: and Mobius strip should be in quotes as so: "... to my sister because she couldn't pronounce 'Mobius strip' properly."
QuoteIt was the next day, just about an hour after lunch.
I have a slight nagging feeling this transition was a bit easy to miss. Probably you need to add something to indicate that the previous conversation wrapped up, a bit fancier than, say, "And that was that, until the next day. Just an hour after lunch, I was taking a break ..." but in the same general vein.
Quotesince I could mess with time or search the whole spacetime continuum for answers if I really wanted to.
To reduce the impact of the redundancy ("time" ... "space-time"), you could expand "mess with time" into some more specific way of messing with time that doesn't make the sentence seem so stilted. Not sure what to suggest, though.
Quoteabout a rainstorm that hit on a sunny day, even if not everyone's willing to deem it truly fantastic in origin."
Not sure... maybe "about that rainstorm hitting on a sunny day"? Only 30% sure that it's better.
QuoteBut this was different. Had I a piece of phlebotinum in my hands, I wouldn't have to explain how it worked or why. I could leave that to experts and scientists to puzzle out, but in the real world, the big mystery was me.
As I understand the thought, it would be more clear if you wrote something like "If I'd found a piece of phlebotinum just lying on the ground somewhere, I wouldn't be under any obligation to explain how it worked or why."
More tentatively (just as an alternative which I'm not sure improves anything) you could end the second sentence as "..., but in the real world, the big mystery had turned out to be me."
Quotewithout too much effort.
Well, without any effort at all, but whatever.
QuoteI'm just not in the mindset to go gallavanting around the galaxy right now.
Is it 'gallavanting', or 'gallivanting'? Can't quite remember.
QuoteLet me finish this assignment, okay? I just want something simple off my mind is all. Is that all right?"
It sounds like you wanted to write "something simple to take my mind off things". I'd also throw a "right now" in there:
Quote from: revisedRight now, I just want something simple to take my mind off things. Is that all right?
Okay, so in general I don't have much trouble with the interaction as it is. Same thing with the one with Mikuru -- Haruhi tries to get her help to cobble together a space travel mechanism that doesn't involve the use of her own powers, which unintentionally places Mikuru into a quandary and makes her even
more reluctant to go. That's much more interesting than just some arbitrary excuse.
Quote"Oh, well that's easy," I said. "I took her powers away."
The other end of the line went dead quiet.
Epic.
I think leaving it up to the reader's imagination as to just what is going on at the other end of the line really works here.
Quote"Maybe you already have other plans?"
"..."
"A book?"
Oh, reading this again, I notice that Haruhi does in fact back off very quickly, and is actually the one to bring up the idea that Yuki might refuse to go.
All right then. Pointless to make a suggestion you're already adhering to, right? I guess the proper thing to say to this is "well done".
QuoteShe was wrong. She was dead wrong. She didn't know anything about humanity; she didn't know anything about the brigade. They couldn't be blamed for having other things to do. All it would take was a tale of a planet far, far away, and the brigade would be with me; I was sure of it! I just had to bring back that story, and the excitement in their eyes would be the proof.
I let Yuki go. She could tell me all about the book she was reading if she wanted to. That'd be fine—at least for her.
I tossed my notebooks aside. I opened the window and looked up, into the blue sky. It would've been easier at night, but I had a healthy imagination. I didn't need to see the stars to know where I wanted to go. They shine even in daylight.
I guess it sort of works that Haruhi then rushes off on her own without the Brigade. It's certainly crucial for the story as it stands now (not going would take all the tension out of things); it's a very effective symbolic punch in the gut for her; however...
... the more I think about it, the more trouble I have with the notion that Haruhi rushes off for precisely those reasons you give, and doesn't really see it coming with regard to how she will feel at the end of the chapter. Especially since she's just had a whole scene of attempting to be considerate of everyone's feelings. (Once she's on the planet, it makes sense that she completely forgets about the symbolic import of what she's doing. However, getting her there is going to be extremely tricky.)
It's not too dissimilar from the problem Brian was having with 'Sympathy', by the way: the issue is that it's crucial to the story that things play out a certain way, but the motivation behind the actions that lead to that outcome needs a lot more work. (And I was rubbing salt into that wound by misunderstanding Brian's intent and suggesting that he could keep the motivations as-is and change the outcome >_<). As I think I explained to Brian in private, for me personally these sorts of things actually just generate indifference for the fic in question (perhaps not in a quality sufficient to nullify the positive aspects of the fic immediately), whose source I have difficulty interpreting. It took me a couple of re-readings to pinpoint the problem, and then to articulate it civilly.
A more demanding reader would possibly be tempted to drop the fic at this point.
So if anything needs serious work, it's actually not how the various Brigade members make excuses not to go, it's what rationale Haruhi uses to go off anyways. Let's get the line-by-line over, and I'll mull over some thoughts as to how that particular notion might be improved. But keep in mind that you know where the story is going, so you might be able to come up with an answer (or a way to dodge the issue) that wouldn't have occurred to me.
Frankly, while I like the symbolic gut-punch of Haruhi's first interstellar trip being taken without the Brigade, I have trouble seeing what sort of worthwhile scenario it might set up in the non-symbolic sense. Does Haruhi mope about because she's failed the Brigade, or does she come up with a way to make it up to everyone that is actually more troublesome?
Haruhi: "... I know! Rather than just a tourist trip like last time, let's find something
really mysterious! Something even the IDSE would find remarkable!"
Yuki: "Phenomena that the IDSE finds remarkable are all things on the order of Suzumiya Haruhi, with the capacity to affect the entire universe. Combining two such phenomena in close proximity is inadvisable. I emphatically
do not want to find out what happens to the overall structure of spacetime if you suddenly decide to jump into the inverted quantum pretzel wormhole, thank you very much."
{/crackfic mode off}
Anyhow, let's think carefully to avoid creating more forced tension along the lines of the one that bogged down your previous drafts. I like the outcome so far, I'm just concerned about the method used to get to it, and given your track record I'm slightly worried that it might be the setup to something vaguely groanworthy.
QuoteI put on the beat-up Tigers cap, and the room melted around me—this time to a smooth and even blackness, save for scattered pinpricks of starlight.
Also, the baseball cap? I know I complimented your use of these objects as motifs, so I am indeed still paying attention to this (well, to the extent that they jump to my attention; I don't bother tracking every single use). This one... doesn't really work. The baseball cap is the one Yuki turns into a spear to stab Asakura with, right? (I seem to remember that happening -- if there's
another baseball cap then this motif is actually very confusing.) I think its earlier appearances make sense for what it's worth, but in this particular instance I don't even want to think about what this gesture symbolizes on the part of Haruhi, in case I invent some borderline theory that never occurred to you, and that causes me to dislike the character.
QuoteWhen I was younger, my family sometimes took me to the public pool.
Trying to remember: Haruhi is an only child, I think? (99% certain) "My family" in that context as opposed to "my parents" speaks to a reluctance to acknowledge this fact. It's something that jumped out at me very quickly, and I'm not sure if it was intentional or if it says anything meaningful about Haruhi.
QuoteI don't know when we stopped doing that, but I haven't forgotten.
"we stopped that" refers all the way to the beginning of the paragraph (to Haruhi's trips with her family). That's slightly awkward (my brain keeps telling me that 'that' refers to Haruhi's hold-your-breath-underwater amusement, and so then I trip over the 'we'). Maybe you should expand 'that' to repeat what exactly Haruhi is referring to? e.g. when we stopped these family outings, or similar.
Hmm... I'm running out of time again. I think I've pointed you to a potential stumbling point which you need to do some thinking about, though, so I have some breathing room with the off-Earth portion. It's your judgment regarding:
- What the flaws of this particular Haruhi are, that lead her to go off alone (which, intuition tells me, is a worthwhile end to the chapter, I just don't want to you 'force' this outcome). You need to determine flaws to make the story interesting, without making people stop caring about the character again.
- Whether the tension created in this chapter is going to be resolved in a worthwhile manner, or whether you're subtly painting yourself into a corner again.
I mean, I had an experience almost as gut-wrenching as Haruhi's recently. However, it had absolutely no real-life consequences. So inventing real-life consequences for it (by moping about / otherwise creating problems for myself) would have been the true defeat, and would have led me to lose respect for myself. If Haruhi did something similar, that would be a strike against her as a character and at this stage it would have led me to lose respect for the fic. In that sense I'm kind of hoping for some variation of "Haruhi overcompensates in trying to make it up to the Brigade", or another subplot on those lines; the main criterion is that Haruhi should dig herself into a hole in some fashion, but for reasons that
don't make her look utterly pathetic as opposed to merely flawed.
I dunno. As with Brian's fic, I'm sending wild, whirling words by now. Hopefully (having learned a valuable lesson in that regard) I've taken pains not to phrase them too aggressively, and you can sort through them at leisure, without being distracted by the presentation.
That was an interesting chapter; please keep working at it carefully.
A bit of pre-emptive clarification I should add: much of the above criticism was speculation, based on the fact that I like the basic idea of Haruhi making this kind of mistake, but I can't really see what sorts of consequences it sets up for the story (well, I can come up with some examples which return it to the state of a tedious soap opera and are therefore untenable, and a bunch of 'overcompensation' subplots which are far too specific to be used to speculate on your intentions effectively). There's a strong possibility that you do have a worthwhile direction for this story, in which case your response to that part of my C&C should just be "I know what I'm doing, actually."
That would just leave the question of establishing Haruhi's motivation in going off alone. It's handled in basically two or three consecutive paragraphs, but those strike me as very important paragraphs to get right.
QuoteQuoteIn a way, she was the one member of the brigade who, after these revelations, I felt I knew the least about.
Umm... you could even make the case that Haruhi feels as though she knows even less about Yuki than she did before.
Something to that effect will probably read a lot better than it does right now.
QuoteQuote"You threatened them," she explained, "and now they are threatened."
Kind of... borderline and perhaps a bit too casual for Yuki (it makes the IDSE sound like an emotional entity). The underlying thought is that since it has been threatened, the IDSE no longer feels any benefit from inaction when it is not certain that a given plan will work -- inaction is, for whatever reason, now estimated to be just as risky as action. Yuki might want to express some thought to that effect (not going to trust myself to write accurate Yuki dialogue for you), though it might be difficult to do so without implying she's in a talkative mood.
Yeah, I think I felt caught here between specificity and brevity. Is this something that might come across if, say, Nagato shot Haruhi a meaningful glance---to indicate that while it was Kyon who made the threat, the instrument of that threat is Haruhi?
...ick, I'm not real happy with that notion, either. Unusually talkative might be the way to go.
QuoteQuotesay, a license plate hanging in the window
... trying to figure out what kind of license plate a person would hang in a bedroom window for sentimental reasons ... confused ... is this some kind of reference?
This wasn't a specific reference, but I felt I had to be specific in types of decorations. Perhaps a reference would be more appropriate, in that case.
QuoteQuoteoutside this apartment for all those concerned.
Seems to be a bit of an awkward phrase. How about just "a negligible amount of time will pass in all reference frames located outside the apartment" or something of that sort.
Reference frames, of course! That's brilliant.
Though it may be that that has to be qualified with "inertial" reference frames. Possibly. Maybe.
QuoteQuote"And then he spent twenty minutes explaining topology to my sister because she choudln't pronounce M\"obius strip properly."
*remembers personal encounters with real-life topology nerds, groans inwardly*
Anyhow, typo: "chouldn't" --> "couldn't", as you might have noticed.
EDIT: and Mobius strip should be in quotes as so: "... to my sister because she couldn't pronounce 'Mobius strip' properly."
Brian's really much better with some of these arcane rules than I--is it necessarily quotation marks that are prescribed here or emphasis?
QuoteQuoteIt was the next day, just about an hour after lunch.
I have a slight nagging feeling this transition was a bit easy to miss. Probably you need to add something to indicate that the previous conversation wrapped up, a bit fancier than, say, "And that was that, until the next day. Just an hour after lunch, I was taking a break ..." but in the same general vein.
This is the result of trying to do something funny. I was trying to ease the transition by having some of the dialogue that happens the next day come before the narration says it's the next day, so...yeah, I used to be in love with acrhonological order, but this is probably too odd to pull off correctly. I'll try something more conventional to avoid confusion.
QuoteQuoteabout a rainstorm that hit on a sunny day, even if not everyone's willing to deem it truly fantastic in origin."
Not sure... maybe "about that rainstorm hitting on a sunny day"? Only 30% sure that it's better.
Yeah, I have a feeling we're both thinking about the extra "that" that wants to creep in there, making "hit" -> "hitting" to avoid it and still coming off a bid odd. I'll do some thinking on that one.
QuoteQuoteBut this was different. Had I a piece of phlebotinum in my hands, I wouldn't have to explain how it worked or why. I could leave that to experts and scientists to puzzle out, but in the real world, the big mystery was me.
As I understand the thought, it would be more clear if you wrote something like "If I'd found a piece of phlebotinum just lying on the ground somewhere, I wouldn't be under any obligation to explain how it worked or why."
More tentatively (just as an alternative which I'm not sure improves anything) you could end the second sentence as "..., but in the real world, the big mystery had turned out to be me."
Do you like "be under any obligation" -> "be obliged"?
On looking at the last sentence, I think I'm inclined to space it out like, say, "I could leave that to experts and scientists to puzzle out, but in the real world, there were no pieces of alien spacecraft or bits of a battle waitress's time machine. There was only one big mystery left in the universe, and that was me."
*squints* Up to you if you like that. I know sometimes these lines come out and seem great when first put down but later on, after you forget, you notice problems you didn't remember, so.
QuoteI guess it sort of works that Haruhi then rushes off on her own without the Brigade. It's certainly crucial for the story as it stands now (not going would take all the tension out of things); it's a very effective symbolic punch in the gut for her; however...
... the more I think about it, the more trouble I have with the notion that Haruhi rushes off for precisely those reasons you give, and doesn't really see it coming with regard to how she will feel at the end of the chapter. Especially since she's just had a whole scene of attempting to be considerate of everyone's feelings. (Once she's on the planet, it makes sense that she completely forgets about the symbolic import of what she's doing. However, getting her there is going to be extremely tricky.)
It's not too dissimilar from the problem Brian was having with 'Sympathy', by the way: the issue is that it's crucial to the story that things play out a certain way, but the motivation behind the actions that lead to that outcome needs a lot more work. (And I was rubbing salt into that wound by misunderstanding Brian's intent and suggesting that he could keep the motivations as-is and change the outcome >_<). As I think I explained to Brian in private, for me personally these sorts of things actually just generate indifference for the fic in question (perhaps not in a quality sufficient to nullify the positive aspects of the fic immediately), whose source I have difficulty interpreting. It took me a couple of re-readings to pinpoint the problem, and then to articulate it civilly.
A more demanding reader would possibly be tempted to drop the fic at this point.
So if anything needs serious work, it's actually not how the various Brigade members make excuses not to go, it's what rationale Haruhi uses to go off anyways. Let's get the line-by-line over, and I'll mull over some thoughts as to how that particular notion might be improved. But keep in mind that you know where the story is going, so you might be able to come up with an answer (or a way to dodge the issue) that wouldn't have occurred to me.
In part, it may be that I relied too much here on self-deception. You read the first draft of chapter four, so you know there I overused that device. The undercurrent that should be running through Haruhi's mind is, of course, that she really wanted someone else to jump up and down with excitement at the prospect of visiting another planet, just as she would, and the members of the brigade, for various, entirely understandable reasons, decline her. There's a fear that, maybe, just maybe, she doesn't really know these people and what they want out of life. I know there's a danger in overplaying that angle, but I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that, before the events of this story, Haruhi took as a tacit assumption that all the members of the brigade were like her in some way--eager to find mysteries in the world. And what she fears here, what she's trying to avoid and deny, is that the notion that she misread them, the thought that she was wrong.
Now, as I said, I'm aware there's risk in this direction. You can look back in this chaper and see where I lampshade the direction it
was going toward, prior to the mistake that was chapter four. It suffices to say that right now, it's not Haruhi's anger that I ultimately want to evoke. Her anger is unsympathetic. Her anger erases all the growth that she's experienced instead of building upon it. Perhaps from Kyon's perspective it's something that could be done, but from her own pen, it seems like it doesn't work. That's the gist of what I've taken from you and Brian in particular. So I decided to work at a different question instead:
How would
you feel if an entire race of espers had been created because you picked them for no reason? If time-travelers from the future left their famlies and cultures to focus on you? If aliens created interfaces merely to interact with and understand you?
Haruhi's very outward-focused. The passage where she bemoans how she's the only mystery around is meant to emphasize that: a world where there are no other mysteries to explore is one that Haruhi would find very sad--not
boring in that angry, frustrated sense because even then Haruhi felt there must be mysteries just evading her sight--but
sad.
Without getting into too many specifics, that's the basic thrust of where this is headed. Haruhi can still find pleasure in conventional things--I know some emphasis has been placed on Haruhi's friendship with Sakanaka, and that's something I intend to visit--but I think there's an overriding image of the world in her mind: that the universe should be full of mysteries and of people eager to explore them. In part, I think Haruhi's gradual acceptance of society and people has stemmed from her broadening this view to include smaller mysteries and people who engage life with energy and awareness of how grand things are, even if they don't appraoch life the way Haruhi does. I think (I
think) Haruhi's acceptance of Sakanaka fits that mold. The whole theory is a bit of a work in progress.
At any rate, I'm thinking that another way to play the last few paragraphs before Haruhi goes to the Piggy planet is, say, to have her acknowledge an uncomfortable thought--that she doesn't know the brigade as well as she believed--and feel compelled through fear to make an irrational decision, hence blinding her to the consequences of it. Ultimately, that may be what I was actually going for, and I simply skipped too many steps in the thought process to get that on the page. As always, though, I welcome your thoughts on that line of reasoning, as you're right--it's very crucial to pin Haruhi's thoughts down, to make the audience feel her decision is understandable.
Thank you very much for all that you've given.
Edit: ack, I got really hung up on that part and stopped going through the rest. Oops.
QuoteAlso, the baseball cap? I know I complimented your use of these objects as motifs, so I am indeed still paying attention to this (well, to the extent that they jump to my attention; I don't bother tracking every single use). This one... doesn't really work. The baseball cap is the one Yuki turns into a spear to stab Asakura with, right? (I seem to remember that happening -- if there's another baseball cap then this motif is actually very confusing.) I think its earlier appearances make sense for what it's worth, but in this particular instance I don't even want to think about what this gesture symbolizes on the part of Haruhi, in case I invent some borderline theory that never occurred to you, and that causes me to dislike the character.
Well, there's the baseball cap the old woman from chapter three gave Haruhi, and there's the cap that Asahina bought at the stadium; Asahina put her initials under the brim.
At this point, the cap is mentioned so people don't forget it's there. It probably need not be mentioned here; there will be a much more effective use of it in the next chapter.
Actually, I kind of thought Haruhi would take it along just to protect her eyes from an alien sun. But that may be too practical a use.
QuoteTrying to remember: Haruhi is an only child, I think? (99% certain) "My family" in that context as opposed to "my parents" speaks to a reluctance to acknowledge this fact. It's something that jumped out at me very quickly, and I'm not sure if it was intentional or if it says anything meaningful about Haruhi.
Yeah, I knew that, but "parents" does seem like the better word.
I think I've adequately addressed the remainder with the big response above. That said, the sentiments you've expressed are definitely on my mind regarding the future structure of the story and the interpretation of those events I have planned that is truest to Haruhi's character--since she seems so difficult to figure out and pin down.
In other news, I don't drink tea, let alone with Japanese cups or anything like that, so I was prepared to just go with the cups and not worry about it, but then I saw this image in Disappearance, and it took me aback. Are there saucers in this shot (in Nagato's apartment) atypical, then?
Ah, my bad then.
(See, this is why C&Cing alone is hard.)
*checks Japanese style cups in closet*
Those came with saucers as well. Saucers are the default, actually.
I think what my stumbling point was, as far as I remember the difference between Japanese cups&saucers and English cups&saucers is that in England you can hold the saucer in one hand while standing and *sip* lift the cup off it repeatedly using the handle, which is very clearly what you have Asakura doing (?), but I don't remember seeing the Japanese style cups in the anime being used that way. The coaster seems to stay on the table.
In any case, don't trust me on this, try to look at an episode and check for yourself whether they ever walk around holding the saucer like with English tea, or if they leave it on the table as a sort of glorified tea coaster (so that its existence doesn't really register that well).
One thing I can definitely determine is that the cups in the picture (and my set of Japanese cups) are clearly much larger and heavier than the sort of cup-with-handle you can hold one-handed on a saucer, they're more like mugs without handles. Trying to balance them on a saucer in your hands (either one-handed or with both hands) when they're full of hot tea would be extremely awkward.
*looks at picture again*
No, the ones in the picture look sort of in-between-sized. I guess it's borderline. In the end, just go with something that makes sense for you.
I've completed revisions for this. The transition scene after Haruhi leaves Nagato's is significantly tweaked, and there's a little bit of additional wording to clarify Haruhi's reasoning. The ending is worded differently as well.
Edit: naturally I find something else that needs fixing right after that.
Happens to me every time, for what that's worth. :x
I read this fic in one shot last night, up to the previous revision of chapter six. I like it on the whole. Haruhi is deeply flawed and going through one hell of a change, so I give her a lot of leeway. The main thing I'm wondering about is her final conclusion: It feels like it would be easy for her to stop thinking about herself as human. Chapter 6's visit to a new world absolutely cemented that. She played the mercurial god role to the hilt - to her they were just aliens and she did what she thought was right. She realizes that now too, so I'm highly curious to where this is gonna go.
Is that intended?
Disclaimer: I've only seen the anime and that was when it first came out. So my viewpoint is likely far different than someone who's kept more up on the series.
Okay, the tweaked justification, I'd say, is good enough at this point. I'm curious to see where this is going in the following chapters.
QuoteIn the summers, that was the closest I could come to visiting an alien world. I don't know when we stopped going swimming, but I haven't forgotten.
Hmm... not really the correction I was expecting. The idea is still obvious (swimming with parents), but the fact that it's just 'stopped going swimming' (... in general?) is a bit of a stumbling point now.
QuoteIt's what convinced me that that place was really something totally unlike home, unlike anything that could happen on planet Earth.
I'd simplify the beginning of that to "It convinced me that..."
QuoteThere was a quick, chop-chop-chop sound.
I'd say the comma was unnecessary.
Quote"Teleportation, flying, what's the difference?"
No problem with that line, but I just couldn't help myself:
Doctor!Haruhi: *eyebrow twitch* -- "You're so ignorant!"
(waves small notebook at Coin!Haruhi)
Doctor!Haruhi: "There are precisely one hundred and forty-seven different flying and teleportation mechanics that I've personally investigated, which have absolutely nothing to do with each other!"
Coin!Haruhi: "... did anyone ever tell you that you have way too much time on your hands?"
Doctor!Haruhi: "I was stranded on a technologically backwards planet for two years!"
Coin!Haruhi: "Couldn't you have just teleported yourself to a different planet?"
Doctor!Haruhi: "I had conveniently erased my own memory of the fact that I could teleport further than two kilometres!"
Coin!Haruhi: "...??"
Doctor!Haruhi: "... because it's more fun that way!"
Coin!Haruhi: "...."
Quote
No amount of world-changing power could keep her poisonous words out of my mind.
Not if I was the one who let them in.
Probably putting a "decided" in that last sentence (e.g. had decided to let them in) would make that thought flow more smoothly. Currently it has a bit of an oxymoronic ring to it.
In general, your Piggy planet scene is much better now that it's no longer a contrived play put on by Asakura, becoming just some random off-planet crisis.
Quote from: Anastasia on November 04, 2011, 09:37:59 PMThe main thing I'm wondering about is her final conclusion: It feels like it would be easy for her to stop thinking about herself as human. Chapter 6's visit to a new world absolutely cemented that. She played the mercurial god role to the hilt - to her they were just aliens and she did what she thought was right. She realizes that now too, so I'm highly curious to where this is gonna go.
Personally, I have trouble seeing a different way for the self-aware Haruhi scenario to play out. She's not the type to become a thoroughly unrestricted, amoral entity (see: http://www.kiwisbybeat.com/minus.html), so it seems likely that she'd eventually come up with a set of arbitrary rules that keep her from having to confront any particularly difficult dilemmas, while still getting to have lots of fun. Attempting to do anything else would very likely strain her sanity.
Well, the other scenario I can think of was sort of hinted at in Hal's epilogue to Under Review: Haruhi's powers are sufficiently user-unfriendly that accomplishing anything significant without dangerous side-effects is extremely difficult. So obviously anything drastic like launching 'Singularity' (like she winds up being forced to do in *bleagh* Riddle of Kyon) is no longer in consideration and thus ironically Haruhi doesn't need to worry as much.
Obviously that's not the case in Murphid's fic. The powers here seem to take their cue from Haruhi's confident and stubborn streak, so as long as she's convinced that nothing is going to go wrong, nothing goes wrong, in terms of the million different adaptations that are probably necessary for her to be walking around on an alien planet like that. The human dimension, though, is of course something completely different.
EDIT: And I think for a world-changing omnipotent being to start considering themselves as
not exactly human, is a fairly accurate evaluation of the situation :-) -- that's a long discussion, though.
QuoteHmm... not really the correction I was expecting. The idea is still obvious (swimming with parents), but the fact that it's just 'stopped going swimming' (... in general?) is a bit of a stumbling point now.
I'm thinking "when we stopped going to that pool together" or something like that?
QuoteProbably putting a "decided" in that last sentence (e.g. had decided to let them in) would make that thought flow more smoothly. Currently it has a bit of an oxymoronic ring to it.
I realized that I said "I was the one who" twice in close succession there. I'm thinking of just ending with "Not if I chose to let them in"?
In regard to what Haruhi is becoming, the concept of people questioning their humanity or seeing themselves as foreign is intensely appealing to me (I really liked that theme when I was writing
Eva stuff), but I think I have something a bit different in mind here. What Ana says makes me think that the buildup isn't entirely clear. Haruhi realizes that she let Asakura plant a seed of doubt in her mind and that she acted on it without even realizing it. Where that leads isn't toward a further abandonment of her humanity
per se, but I think she would feel ashamed of herself. (Bear in mind that this is
I think because I've not been able to write any of chapter seven despite having it outlined.) And, most importantly, I think it would start leading her toward the realization that just going out and finding aliens to play with isn't enough, isn't fulfilling by itself.
As always, this is a tricky balance :/ Trying to figure out how much to say about what's intended versus letting people present their interpretations unpolluted by what I think stuff should mean--I'm not sure if I've already said too much.
I will say that the depiction of Haruhi's powers (that they seem to accomplish whatever necessary secondary effects are needed automagically) may have stemmed in part from not wanting to get bogged down in Haruhi considering all those miscellaneous considerations. I mean, she manages to save her own life without ever waking up that one time. The necessary question, then, is if Haruhi has such boundless powers and
can use them, what's keeping her from revamping the world? Why wouldn't she? All along, I've been trying to build up to an internal reasoning for that, too, as opposed to, say, "the powers just don't work that way" or anything like that. There's still some fridge questions to be addressed there. Why wouldn't she, say, keep people from dying or erase all evil or do something else that might seem altruistic?
To be honest, that's a tough, messy question, and the best I can think of is that, if Haruhi has the ability to retcon the universe, so to speak, she can let things play out unadulterated and then figure out and decide later. That...may not be entirely satisfactory, either.
Thank you both for your thoughts; it's definitely compelled me to look ahead and think about the wrap-up to this story, which is certainly drawing nearer. I mean, it's just seven, eight...nine might be shorter, then an epilogue? Of course, given how much this story has changed from what I initially planned out, I'll be the first to say that's all subject to change.
And Brian, heh, it's always that way, isn't it?
Quote from: Muphrid on November 01, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
Brian's really much better with some of these arcane rules than I--is it necessarily quotation marks that are prescribed here or emphasis?
I would guess that quotation marks are valid. My probably-flawed understanding of it: think about quoting things to use with X said "such and such stuff" - the quotes turn "such and such stuff" from a phrase into a noun that
means a phrase - similarly quoting 'Mobius strip' turns it from a noun representing an object to a noun representing a bit of speech. Since you pronounce bits of speech and not objects, that seems entirely valid.
Yeah, that was a horrible explanation...
Quote from: Muphrid on November 01, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
Do you like "be under any obligation" -> "be obliged"?
On looking at the last sentence, I think I'm inclined to space it out like, say, "I could leave that to experts and scientists to puzzle out, but in the real world, there were no pieces of alien spacecraft or bits of a battle waitress's time machine. There was only one big mystery left in the universe, and that was me."
*squints* Up to you if you like that. I know sometimes these lines come out and seem great when first put down but later on, after you forget, you notice problems you didn't remember, so.
Sort of indifferent on whether you want to use my version or your version. Neither is bad, neither is particularly brilliant either.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 01, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
Now, as I said, I'm aware there's risk in this direction. You can look back in this chaper and see where I lampshade the direction it was going toward, prior to the mistake that was chapter four.
Sorry, just double-checking, by 'lampshading' do you mean this paragraph?
Quote
I realized a bit later that maybe not everyone in my shoes—with my powers and abilities—would've let something nagging at them go so easily. In the movies, that would've been the point when the invincible, all-powerful protagonist probes the mind of her friends and discovers that, as much as they may follow her and tolerate her, there are aspects of her personality and behavior they can't help but dislike. And in her arrogance, the omnipotent protagonist would punish her so-called friends for daring to criticize her, even though they never said anything—the only reason she ever found out was because she violated their minds. Then who knows what would happen. Maybe she'd erase them one-by-one until just the only person she couldn't bear to be without was left. Then, the question would be whether she'd follow through with her anger or had a shred of humanity left, enough to repent.
Wait, really? I just realized you might mean this bit about erasing everyone who makes her angry? Really?Okaaaay... yeah, that might've been sort of unacceptable. (Although it might've been par for, say,
Meet the Suzumiyas or something.)
The stuff you're exploring now seems to be much more valid. I mean, Haruhi now having the power to give herself and her friends whatever they want is problematic enough in the human dimension without needing to have her actively work to destroy everything she spent eleven novels accomplishing.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 01, 2011, 03:34:37 AM
Well, there's the baseball cap the old woman from chapter three gave Haruhi, and there's the cap that Asahina bought at the stadium; Asahina put her initials under the brim.
At this point, the cap is mentioned so people don't forget it's there. It probably need not be mentioned here; there will be a much more effective use of it in the next chapter.
Actually, I kind of thought Haruhi would take it along just to protect her eyes from an alien sun. But that may be too practical a use.
I guess Kyon ("I'll bring a flashlight because I don't have any breathing equipment") and Haruhi were thinking alike on that one in your earlier draft. (As an aside, I tried to imagine Haruhi interacting with the Piggies while wearing a baseball cap. It's sort of a ridiculous mental image -- I'm not sure if it's ridiculous in a good way or not, though.)
Quote from: Muphrid on November 05, 2011, 01:26:08 AM
I'm thinking "when we stopped going to that pool together" or something like that?
Works well.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 05, 2011, 01:26:08 AM
I realized that I said "I was the one who" twice in close succession there. I'm thinking of just ending with "Not if I chose to let them in"?
Also works well here.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 05, 2011, 01:26:08 AM
In regard to what Haruhi is becoming, the concept of people questioning their humanity or seeing themselves as foreign is intensely appealing to me (I really liked that theme when I was writing Eva stuff), but I think I have something a bit different in mind here. What Ana says makes me think that the buildup isn't entirely clear.
Ah, personally I only riffed on that theme in my commentary because I've been thinking about it (looking ahead to where Haruhi might end up once she's lived past a normal human lifespan), but your fic clearly isn't focusing on that particular question :-)
Right now any question as to why she doesn't use her power in a human-type way (attempting to fix the problems / attain the goals that humans are always obsessing about) is going to be answered simply by "she's still figuring things out".
Quote from: Muphrid on November 05, 2011, 01:26:08 AM
I will say that the depiction of Haruhi's powers (that they seem to accomplish whatever necessary secondary effects are needed automagically) may have stemmed in part from not wanting to get bogged down in Haruhi considering all those miscellaneous considerations.
I always assumed it was valid (as a rule of thumb) to assume that Haruhi's powers are nothing more than an extension of her personality. As in, after the baseball game (EDIT: the
original one in canon where she supposedly gains her powers) she becomes so stubborn about what she wants to accomplish that the obstacles in her path start to suffer spontaneous existence failure... that's obviously not an actual explanation, but it seems to fit the way she functions fairly well.
This first draft of chapter seven is attached. Again, my thanks to Arakawa for all the help of late. Some ongoing concerns I have (which I feel, at this point, I've reached an impasse with):
Is the scene with Koizumi adequate? I feel I may have shortchanged him here, and that the only solution is to expand significantly (in the mode of chapter five being expanded with Mori), but...I kinda want to get through this and not be slowed down by such a diversion when the point is made sufficiently by the end here.
Is the old woman needlessly cryptic? Is her identity unduly clear by the end of the chapter?
Kyon's attitude toward Asahina (big): I tried to find the right way to depict his mindset toward her here--something that's generally positive but still has some tinge of irritation (?) for the way she goes about toying with people as needed.
Is it too much of a cop-out to have the "future" be just a mock-up of the past?
Does Asahina (big)'s breakdown at the end follow logically? I had to revise and twist that scene (and the cafe scene) around to be logical, so having gone through a lot of iterations and rethinking, I'm not sure if it ends up being clear.
EDIT: I really hope the following is useful instead of discouraging. But there's problems with the chapter that I just can't ignore, and I don't have the time to figure out the exact correct emphasis to use to talk about them in the necessary detail.
Um... before I C&C this, I just wanted clarification on how you handle Haruhi's recollections of the scene from Sigh where she exclaimed that Mikuru-chan was her toy. As it stands, it consists of a recap where she seems to gloss over the unpleasant aspects of that scene, to such an extent that it feels like she's still in denial. If that's actually the case, it could be lampshaded to make it clear that she's, to put it bluntly, lying to herself; if that's not what you want to get across... well, either way the scene needs work. As written, the way in which she glosses over these aspects was sufficiently distracting that I didn't even get to the part where she finally dwells on her own mistakes (for one paragraph) on the first try, and it makes the whole scene feel somewhat fake, like your Haruhi was trying to shove a differing interpretation of events down my throat to make herself look better.
For the purpose of the fic (since Haruhi has to be at least likable enough for us to tolerate her as the narrator) it would be good to fix the re-cap, keeping in mind that Haruhi may be genuinely unwilling to remember what happened. But she should realize that she can't afford to deny it completely. Being entirely blind to the situation is how she originally did the awful things she did. (There's a very ironic parallel to the fact that she was at the same time completely blind to all the supernatural things that were happening around her -- a huge potential punch in the gut for her to realize that. The kind of punch in the gut that might make you a better person to receive it. It's sort of an obvious clue that, unless she wants the situation to spiral into some overblown crisis, she should actually do something to deserve this awesome power she has.) So.... if I were tasked to rewrite your scene, I'd try to have her struggle a little between these two contradictory impulses, and maybe even get the huge punch in the gut. She does have the option of consoling herself at the end that she's improved since that time. And then once she goes to talk with the Brigade members, she can at least bother to notice the import of her interactions. Maybe actually take stock of the fact that Kyon actually trusts her to a surprising degree, considering how the other Brigade members are scared to shit of her, and of how much work she apparently has in front of her to actually be friends with most of them.
Or, to put it even more bluntly, Haruhi's recap consists of one paragraph of repentance, buried in the middle of seven paragraphs of complete and utter hubris. I think it might be good to consider whether/how to fix this before I look at the rest in detail, because, glancing quickly at the rest, I already see that it's going to heavily colour the remainder of the story. It's not that a Haruhi who's basically not able to face her past deeds is implausible, but it's kind of difficult to square with the rest of the story and, if you combine it with her genki attitude it starts to drift towards cosmic horror; the scene where she declares to Koizumi that she's not sure she even needs espers now becomes kind of unpleasant.
If you were wondering what the probable effect of the Koizumi scene is, as the chapter stands he comes out very well, at the expense of obliterating any sympathy we were developing for Haruhi. He finds himself staring down someone who (he... and now the reader... have every reason to believe) is an unreasonable, hubristic goddess who can't be reasoned with and must be manipulated, but (unlike Mori) instead of manipulating her to feel distress, leading to a dangerous situation, he manipulates her to calm down and successfully reins in her eagerness to disband the espers, at least for the moment. Much like Mori, such an approach still doesn't see Haruhi as a person, so much as an abstract liability to be minimized, but I have to identify with Koizumi given that after eleven novels of various nonsense, plus the situation he's presently facing in your fic, he doesn't really have any good reason not to display such distrust.
I'm really sorry if my C&C comes across as negative, but we seem to have run into a huge problem. (If Brian were to ask me if the fic were worth taking a second look at, as-is, I'd have to unequivocally warn him off.) I'm not sure how essential Haruhi's attitude to Sigh is for your characterization; my instinct is that this passage is just a failure to understand how difficult this level of character growth really would be for a person like Haruhi to integrate. As it stands, we have Sigh!Haruhi, who is awful, and your Haruhi, who's written as though she's a completely different character who thus doesn't have remorse for the actions of that other Haruhi in the novels, because they're not really connected (they don't have quite the same set of flaws, and certainly your character isn't as horrible as ), but obviously as the reader I have to assume that they are connected and that Haruhi is liable to do something stupid now, since the only thing she acknowledges that she did wrong was having insufficient advance knowledge about which kinds of contact lenses fly out when you whack Mikuru on the head, and then she goes and declares to Koizumi that she might not need espers anymore because everything is going to work out fine because she wishes it to... ugh.
As noted, Koizumi seems to have done his damned best to dodge that bullet. This is the first fic that has made me feel serious respect for what he's doing. (Aside: The Shadow of Haruhi Suzumiya came close, incidentally, in the sense that he at least turned out to have a damned good reason to be concealing the entire situation from Kyon, but it was extremely difficult to respect his actual actions in that fic. As noted in the fic, I really don't want to see that version of Koizumi when he's not smiling.)
I'd like to believe a version of your chapter is possible where Koizumi comes across the same way, but without Haruhi being quite as horrible. It's important to note that Koizumi's reasons to distrust Haruhi exists completely independently of what Haruhi herself is thinking. Again: objectively, the situation is that Haruhi might have grown (or she might not have grown), but either way she's only built an actual foundation of trust with Kyon.
(I realize I have yet to write a character thread entry on either Haruhi or Koizumi. Urk, procrastination.)
As noted, I think the chapter is entirely salvageable. It's not that Haruhi is a nice person who has completely rejected every aspect of her past self, but the way she's written makes me wonder if the exact opposite is true -- is she even capable of learning from her mistakes without needing some extremely drastic slap in the face, again? Which makes me expect that the fic is going to end with some Meet the Suzumiyas-style barely-averted horrendous disaster...
Out of time in terms of editing the above huge thing, so please, ignore any apparent negative emotions I may have accidentally expressed (no bad feelings were actually felt during my reading of the fic, besides a slight annoyance at Haruhi's character trying to misrepresent or mis-emphasize her earlier actions) and try to use this as perspective on what, in my opinion, doesn't seem to be working. Later (I need time to give this an unprejudiced look) I'll give a play-by-play of exactly how wrong I think Haruhi comes across in her flashback. There's a lot of really neat stuff in the rest of the chapter, but unfortunately the aforementioned problems are, to me, as written, an insurmountable distraction from it.
Again, I'd like to apologize if what I've written comes across the wrong way. I remember you mentioning that you had trouble with this chapter, so there's a chance that this is not at all helpful. Still, I'm always tempted to trust that the other person is going to be able to take my feedback and only take in what makes them stronger...
The issue seems to be that the scene as written has Haruhi's characterization consistent with your (presumable) earlier concept, where Haruhi's hubris was going to lead to the sort of cosmic horror disaster scenario you lampshaded in the last chapter. (Erasing her friends... *shudder*) It's inconsistent with the previous chapters of this version of the fic, though.
Essentially, this is (in my apparent interpretation) turning out to be a fic about trust issues between Haruhi and the Brigade. The problem is, for the trust issues to have a happy ending, Haruhi needs to come across as deserving trust... i.e. as at least willing to work past her problems.
Don't be worried at all, Arakawa, I find this extremely helpful. I wanted Haruhi to present the
Sigh scene the way she would've approached it then, so as to be more immersive, but clearly more emphasis is needed on the repentance aspects of that, on Haruhi berating herself, to make that come across correctly. Perhaps a break would reinforce the notion that all that stuff that happened in
Sigh is emphatically
not how she feels about having done those things now that she can reflect upon them in the "present".
I admit, there are still aspects of it that may be inherently clumsy: to me, if Haruhi doesn't realize she did wrong there, she is utterly unsympathetic and there is no saving her. Conversely, I can't think of
how she would realize she did wrong to accomplish that--the option I went for was something concrete, and what I was aiming for was, "I was wrong about this; I was wrong about everything." Would it be enough if, based solely on Kyon's reaction, she comes to doubt herself instead?
I feel that that initial stumbling block has colored the interpretation of everything else after that. Koizumi's emphatic reaction to Haruhi's offer to disband the espers (by their own choice) was meant to hide his real complaint--that Haruhi saw fit to offer that freedom to Mori, a stranger and perhaps even an enemy by comparison, rather than to Koizumi as a comrade and friend.
Something that occurred to me a short while ago was prompted by the question of why Haruhi wouldn't come right out and confess what she'd done and that she'd realized she was wrong. The cynical explanation is that pride is involved, and I won't dismiss that, but I think that pride can twist in another way--Haruhi could (in principle, in theory) feel that when she does wrong, such wrongs are beyond forgiveness as a function of her position as brigade leader or some other logic. For that, she would see no reason for Kyon to forgive her. There are still some nagging issues with that approach, though. I won't claim it's fully understood on my part or well thought out.
At any rate, the intention was assuredly
not to play on Haruhi's pride or hubris. This should be the moment Haruhi accepts responsibility for her own actions and, beyond that, for actions that are out of her control--where she feels that, were she not so important or such a big influence on the world, Koizumi would be just as happy following whatever pursuits he enjoyed before being an esper, that Asahina would be exploring time like an archaeologist or a historian rather than condemned to protect it through predestination and fate. That is supposed to be the massive creep factor for her when she goes to the future--a huge training facility that's floating in the atmosphere of another planet, all meant to provide an exact mock-up, down to the last millimeter, of 21st century Japan? Haruhi loves attention sometimes, but on her terms. This level of detail is like being stalked.
Anyway, I'm not at all deterred by your commentary because it's precisely for such honest and thought-out opinions that I submit these chapters for review. If anything, I think have myself to blame, for I can't think of any reason to have missed your interpretation other than having sent this out without the proper critical thinking and polish. I've had this "written" for a few days, but I'd been making changes all weekend and probably should've let it sit a bit longer. Once again, I can only be disappointed in myself for not making my intended interpretation clear enough that it could be reasonably glimpsed, despite the problems with this chapter.
Lastly, one thing I do want to ask about is this:
QuoteAs it stands, we have Sigh!Haruhi, who is awful, and your Haruhi, who's written as though she's a completely different character who thus doesn't have remorse for the actions of that other Haruhi in the novels, because they're not really connected (they don't have quite the same set of flaws, and certainly your character isn't as horrible as )
Do you mean that my Haruhi approaches Sigh Haruhi that way, or my Haruhi so fundamentally different that she cannot even be expected to understand what Sigh Haruhi did?
That may be a point more of curiosity; I do want Haruhi to feel, at least in
some way, like an extension of her canonical self. Have I mentioned that, even at the most fluid moments, I still find writing Haruhi difficult? It still seems like there's a minefield of gotchas out there, and you have to weave around them circuitously if you want to capture the character that is, acknowledge the character that was, and paint a portrait of a character she can grow into.
Well, don't feel pressured to give feedback on the rest of the chapter if the opening makes it too difficult. I can definitely brainstorm on how to get that opening passage to fit more in line with what I intended. If you do look over the rest with a closer eye, however, I'll surely welcome that.
I'll second Arakawa about the concerns over the flashback scene. Haruhi seems outright horrific during it, a better and more sympathetic approach is distinctly needed.
QuoteIs the scene with Koizumi adequate? I feel I may have shortchanged him here, and that the only solution is to expand significantly (in the mode of chapter five being expanded with Mori), but...I kinda want to get through this and not be slowed down by such a diversion when the point is made sufficiently by the end here.
It's a fine scene. I liked what it did for Koizumi quite a lot.
QuoteDoes Asahina (big)'s breakdown at the end follow logically? I had to revise and twist that scene (and the cafe scene) around to be logical, so having gone through a lot of iterations and rethinking, I'm not sure if it ends up being clear.
Sort of. My first thought was that she was faking it and manipulating Haruhi. It fit with how the entire chapter framed her character, and I could completely see her doing that.
And now, C&C for Muphrid.
Let's start with my (much-overdue) analysis of the first scene of this chapter, which is somewhat all over the place, but yet mostly goes nasty places. The rest of the chapter (which isn't plagued by such problems) will get C&Ced later, in case my feedback prompts changes that cast the entirety of the chapter in a different light.
As you noted, the purpose of the scene seems to have been to immerse the reader in Haruhi's thoughts at the time of 'Sigh'. If I were going that route, I'd be tempted to do
something like having the younger Haruhi's thoughts in
present tense, italic and then commentary by the older Haruhi in the standard past tense narration. (Note on this particular method: using present tense for a flashback and past tense for the main narrative might strike people as a bit odd, but not unduly so? I dunno.)
Quote
It's probably not flattering for me to say this, but it's not often I've felt real shame. Part of that comes from my outlook on life. There are lots of things people say you shouldn't do. You can't walk around on the street naked, for instance, even though it hurts no one but yourself. Why should I be ashamed of something like that if I didn't want to be?
That logic doesn't apply to everything, though. There are times when your actions can wound other people, and if they're in no position to complain, someone else will on their behalf. I know that well. It's happened to me before.
We start with a pontification on public nudity. As a prelude to some other flashback it might be fine, but with the chapter as written we're going to end up remembering that and using it to mentally underscore just how unserious Haruhi is being about considering what she did wrong.
QuoteWhat could be interesting about that? So I set out to do something different, and that somehow meant Mikuru-chan had to get dunked into a pond.
So Haruhi doesn't remember her own reasoning behind that. Again, this is in and of itself all right, but in context yet another straw for the camel.
QuoteWe agreed to let it go for the day, since when I looked into her eyes, she could barely meet my gaze, but that's when I noticed something.
And now this is totally unacceptable... umm... they didn't 'agree' to anything, at least not in the translation I have. (It would be good to triple-check this moment against the Brown translation, though.) What happened was Kyon yelled at Koizumi to stop, put his camera down and refused to film. Then, instead of acknowledging this or... at least...
arguing, Haruhi just ignored them and started trying to make Mikuru's contact lens fall out.
I know it's probably an accidental inaccuracy, but this actually made me feel annoyance with the character (where all the Kyon-Haruhi-tsundere stuff that Brian had a problem with
did not), because in this particular case the fact that Haruhi embellishes the narrative with these additional details amounts to her deluding herself about how reasonable she was being. And, since this it's first person narration, it's almost like this character is flat out lying to the reader about the events of
Sigh. In short, it really ruins the effect. When you're admitting to doing something wrong, it's probably good to get the details of what you did wrong correctly!
It colors the rest of the flashback as fundamentally dishonest.
QuoteThe color contact I'd given her from before—she still had it in. Really, there was only one quick way to fix that.
So I whacked her on the back of the head with the megaphone.
She winced a little bit, but the contact wouldn't come out. Well, that wouldn't do at all! I hit her again and again—really, how hard could it be to make a contact fly out?
Okay, so let's interpret it that way. Obvious implication: Haruhi started whacking Mikuru because she was oblivious to the fact that this was going to drive Kyon livid, not because she wanted to spite him further. Personally, I read a bit of spite into Haruhi's actions as well (i.e. she responded to Kyon by putting on airs of being
more tyrannical and demanding, and this is a result of that), but that might just be me, and Haruhi might have
plausibly forgotten that aspect of things. (Though note that this contradicts the one repentance-ish paragraph where Haruhi acknowledges she wanted to get a rise out of Kyon on some level.)
Quote
That's when Kyon stopped me. He caught my arm. He challenged me. "Cut it out, stupid," he said. "How is this practice? What does this have to do with acting? How is any of this fun?"
I tried to tell him. It was a convention; that's all. Hadn't he seen it on television before?
Again, Kyon is just-slightly-misquoted here, but this isn't nearly as egregious as the previous embellishment. I note your Haruhi has this habit of stylizing her flashbacks to spin a better yarn. That's fine, it's just that this particular scene is the worst possible context for her to be doing it...
QuoteNot my...? Who was he to tell me that? What was he doing, being so protective of her? What was it about her that was so worthy of his protection? How defenseless she was? Anyone could act that way! I was the one in control there! Mikuru-chan was my toy!
And I thought Kyon would take that and think about it. I thought he'd shake it off and back down. For all the times he'd complained about the brigade and my orders, he'd never outright crossed me. In the end, I always had the final word. I knew, coming from him, that didn't mean blind obedience. I thought it meant I had his respect.
This is at odds with the implication that Haruhi believes herself to have been just monstrously thick (about contact lenses). In this paragraph it's implied that she was deliberately being as nasty as she could to bend Kyon to her will. It's either one or the other; doing both makes it come across like Haruhi briefly realizes just how much spite she had in that encounter, then suppresses the realization in favor of thinking it was just a problem with making a mistake about the contact lens at the wrong moment.
QuoteAnd the only thing that kept us from really getting into a knock-down drag-out was that Mikuru-chan, as she was passing out, begged us both to stop.
Interesting point, though I'm not sure what it implies just yet; anyhow, it's likely worth leaving the implication in (conveyed in some other form). If Kyon had
actually hit her, Haruhi predicts herself as just escalating, to the point of beating him up in return, and probably (reading between the lines) it would
not have as much impact on her.
QuoteI went home really steamed after that. I went straight to Father's computer. I'd show Kyon he was wrong. I'd bring him the proof. Contacts really do fly out of people's eyes like that!
When they were made of plexiglass.
Earlier paragraphs having biased me against this character thoroughly and completely, I read this as: "The only thing I did wrong involves not knowing the properties of non-plexiglass contact lenses!"
It might be good to figure out how to avoid this interpretation in a rewritten version, since it's kind of unfair. Again: having apparently misrepresented events of
Sigh, Haruhi loses my trust, and the fairly calm way she retells her actions comes across as completely and utterly uncaring.
QuoteSo all that hitting the back of Mikuru-chan's head was for nothing. Proclaiming her my toy just to get back at Kyon? Pointless. I was using her. I was using her to get a rise out of him. That's what I meant to do all along, wasn't it? Why else make Mikuru-chan and Koizumi-kun kiss except to make Kyon jealous because he couldn't kiss her instead? And after all that, I did get a rise out of him. I got an uncharacteristic flash of emotion, which told me how he truly felt. He thought I was being stupid and selfish and bratty. He didn't need to hit me to get that across. The realization was like having his knuckles clock me against my cheek.
Kyon didn't speak to me until lunch the next day. Hell, we'd hardly even looked at each other. At that point, I really thought I must've been totally deluded. That night from months before, when I dreamed about him kissing me—it was total fantasy. It had no connection to reality. And when he burst into the club room, finding me there, I really thought he was going to say it—that he wanted nothing to do with the brigade, nothing to do with me.
I was wrong about that, too. I guess, even then, Kyon had proved where he wanted to be. I was just too thick to see that—whether it be in the fall of my first year in high school or in the summer of my second.
Again, this is coloured in my eyes as Haruhi seething that Kyon called her out on her actions. (Somewhere in the above she was also hurting Mikuru, but this drops out of Haruhi's field of vision in spite of the introductory paragraph claiming that it was the root of the issue. Because of this I get the idea that it instead really is all about Kyon and how much Haruhi selfishly hates the idea that Kyon would get angry at her. And yet is still trying to get Kyon angry -- this is a pretty screwed up thing to be doing. Well, Kyon gets angry. Because of something Haruhi did, but still "urgghh Kyon was all going to quit the Brigade!"
Then relief that, after all that's happened, Kyon somehow doesn't hate Haruhi's guts.)
Quote
That's why, the morning after my trip across the galaxy, I was slow to get out of bed. I didn't need to walk to school, and the last thing I wanted to do was to get there early and face his questions. What happened to me? Why didn't I call? How could I think he didn't want to go when he said he did? Each question would be like a knife to the heart that I couldn't take, so I delayed. I stalled. At breakfast, I mulled over every grain of rice like I'd choke if I didn't. In the end, rushed me out the door with her so she could get going, too, but I made it a point to drag my feet, to look at my phone as the minutes ticked by until, at last, I could dally no longer. I wished myself to my shoe locker, changed my footwear, and was outside our classroom in another blink of an eye.
So, to highlight how blasé Haruhi is about her prior actions in 'Sigh' we then see her *genuinely* beat herself up... over the fact that she was impatient enough to go see an alien planet without Kyon. Yes, gut-punch, but it's not in the same ballpark as actively tormenting someone and then feeding the reader this half-assed half-explanation. It might be possible to rewrite this, though, to make it clear that Haruhi failing to take Kyon along, prompted her to think about the events of 'Sigh', and worry that she might be spiraling towards doing something even worse to lose his trust.
This is essentially why I said what I said about your Haruhi vs. Sigh!Haruhi: it's as though Haruhi was calmly talking about the actions of some completely different person in this flashback. This effect might sort of proceed from the writer thinking of the two as slightly different characters (at different stages in Haruhi's development, with a significantly different outlook on things), but since the reader knows they're the same character, the demeanor is all wrong. It suggests that Haruhi hasn't really learned anything, she's just slightly pompous and all "look at me! I acknowledge that I did stuff wrong!"
Many more damning problems lie in what Haruhi
doesn't think about in this flashback. Obviously she
doesn't want to remember her behaviour, but obviously she needs to since the incident has something to teach her. (Hence the flashback.) Shouldn't there be a fear that she hasn't escaped the problem? Maybe in turn assuaged with an acknowledgment that she's been trying to act better? Maybe there's a slight worry that -- Haruhi was genuinely afraid Kyon was going to leave -- these flaws, if ignored, are going to lead Haruhi to destroy her own brigade? Again, the notion that Haruhi certainly deserved to have no clue about her own powers, if she refused to have a clue about her brigade members' feelings? These are just suggestions, but there's a general lack of reflection on Haruhi's part that might well be fixed by adding
something of the sort.
Ultimately a good benchmark would be -- say, imagine Kyon, I dunno, listening in on this retelling. Would he be particularly impressed that Haruhi is examining her own problems? Would Haruhi blush / shudder to realize Kyon had just heard all that and knew what she thought of her own actions? In a good way, or in a bad way?
Quote from: Anastasia on November 22, 2011, 03:23:48 PM
It's a fine scene. I liked what it did for Koizumi quite a lot.
...
My first thought was that [Mikuru(big)] was faking it and manipulating Haruhi. It fit with how the entire chapter framed her character, and I could completely see her doing that.
I can honestly see it as being a bit of both. It's not that Koizumi's sentiment about treasuring his status as an esper is insincere; it's just that his motivation in voicing it is because it's the right thing to say that stops Haruhi, not because he wants to level with her. He's in the sort of tight spot where, if the correct thing to say to rein Haruhi in would instead have been some purely facetious BS, he would deliver purely facetious BS without hesitation. From his perspective, it's either that or the end of the universe.
So, this fic raises some thought provoking issues about how sincere the Brigade members are about belonging to it, vs. how much staying in the Brigade is just a matter of necessity for them. Ultimately, besides Haruhi, Kyon is the only one who's there purely because he wants to be (half the point of 'Disappearance' seems to be to establish this fact by showing that he was even willing to reject a 'sane' universe not ruled by Haruhi, just so he could stay with the Brigade).
In light of both your and Ana's earlier comments, I'd already committed to a considerable revisit of that first scene (which...maybe I can finish tonight). Nevertheless, this gives me a better concrete idea of what doesn't work.
I don't think I'll respond in depth to this criticism, as I don't see any good coming of it when in posts, my first instinct will be to defend my intentions rather than, in the writing, to act on those criticisms and improve. I will say that your specific comments, Arakawa, have given me a much clearer idea of what needs adjusting, and I thank you for that.
I do have one question, though: basically, why Haruhi would hit Asahina (to make her contact come out) has always bothered me. It almost stresses my own suspension of disbelief just to write it and acknowledge the canonical fact. I can play it straight, as I did here, with Haruhi realizing that she was willfully blind and that she seized on an opportunity to needle Kyon, or I can take it one step further and have her know for a fact that those contacts won't fly out (which, while making the act even more monstrous, at least doesn't require a massive failure of basic knowledge on Haruhi's part). I guess I'm curious what either of you (or anyone else) thinks of the different consequences that result from those interpretations. I know that's a bit open-ended.
Given how much attention this opening scene has attracted, I'm also not sure if that means it's just too much of a lightning rod to be included--trying to reconcile a character at her objectively lowest point seems inherently...difficult. I'm not sure all the extra effort to get that right is worth the focus that will be drawn from the rest of the chapter. That said, I'd hoped that this introductory scene would serve to set the tone for the rest of the chapter, without which the intended message may no longer be clear (not that it's very clear right now to begin with). So I guess I'm of two minds on that matter, as well.
Regarding Koizumi, I think this really depends on how sincere we judge him. Haruhi's fear should (again, in theory, in principle) be that Koizumi has convinced himself he wants to stay even when he doesn't. Koizumi may actually be lying and has only regained his composure after an outburst put him in a very precarious spot; I can definitely see that interpretation, but I do think that undercuts what little growth's he's had--from being this mysterious, conspiratorial dude to actually, maybe, possibly feeling like the brigade is his home and something he's actually loyal to. Of course, all that talk may have been BS. You can't really know with Koizumi. Or I guess that's how I see things.
At any rate, I'm working on incorporating your specific remarks, Arakawa, into revising that opening scene, so thanks again for having the patience to do so despite an obviously flawed effort on my part.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 23, 2011, 11:57:12 PM
I do have one question, though: basically, why Haruhi would hit Asahina (to make her contact come out) has always bothered me. It almost stresses my own suspension of disbelief just to write it and acknowledge the canonical fact. I can play it straight, as I did here, with Haruhi realizing that she was willfully blind and that she seized on an opportunity to needle Kyon, or I can take it one step further and have her know for a fact that those contacts won't fly out (which, while making the act even more monstrous, at least doesn't require a massive failure of basic knowledge on Haruhi's part). I guess I'm curious what either of you (or anyone else) thinks of the different consequences that result from those interpretations.
The way I see it is that at that point Haruhi was genuinely losing her ability to tell the difference between reality and fiction; this was well substantiated by other movie related incidents. Being a genre savvy character, she started to act like
every trope she had ever seen was suddenly truth in television, and directed the movie accordingly.
I'm assuming that Haruhi had seen some slapstick comedy where a person was hit on the head so that his/her contact lens fell out, and failed to understand the side effects of such actions; the amount of things she fails to notice while directing the movie is truly staggering. So, while she keeps hitting Asahina there aren't any ulterior motives, she genuinely believes that she's invoking a valid trope and wonders why it doesn't work as intended.
When Kyon confronts her over this, she still doesn't see the real reason for Kyon's action, and replies without thinking, based on the perceived (emotional) issue that Kyon is defying her will. If Kyon had said: "Pigs don't fly", Haruhi would've replied: "I've decided that they do!" It's only when Kyon is about to hit her when she suddenly realizes that she has stepped out of the line, but she's still too proud to admit it, and instead gets angry. Brian analyzed this very aptly in
The Apology.
I believe that this is the most benign possible interpretation of the event, and still leaves room for introspection if Haruhi makes a serious effort on recognizing her flaws.
Apologies for the lateness of this response. Going elsewhere for holidays, especially where internet likes to be down more than up, isn't cool. On the flip side, it's given me some time to ponder this a bit and come up with a tweaked approach.
I think, in large part, I agree with the preceding interpretation. I can only believe that Haruhi really thought the contact would fly out like in a cartoon. Anything else paints her in a very, very negative light. Responding to Kyon as a challenge to her authority seems largely consistent as well. The approach that seemed to mirror what Haruhi'd already done was for her to think she'd subconsciously put Asahina in compromised and revealing positions to needle Kyon, in doing so making the whole movie project become something incredibly mean-spirited and fake. On balance, I don't know if I consider that the most likely possibility for
how Haruhi would realize she'd done wrong, but it seemed to fit with the idea from last chapter, where Haruhi realizes she's deceived herself in going to the Piggy planet alone and not taking Kyon implicitly at his word.
So, thanks for that tidbit of insight (...was that a rimshot?). It definitely helps me to see what elements of my approach are valid.
Anyway, here attached is a new revision, with the opening scene rewritten to some extent. I tried to have Haruhi be more critical of herself in real time, as opposed to offloading that to the end of the passage. In addition, I tried to change some emphasis throughout based on Arakawa's comment:
QuoteSo, this fic raises some thought provoking issues about how sincere the Brigade members are about belonging to it, vs. how much staying in the Brigade is just a matter of necessity for them. Ultimately, besides Haruhi, Kyon is the only one who's there purely because he wants to be (half the point of 'Disappearance' seems to be to establish this fact by showing that he was even willing to reject a 'sane' universe not ruled by Haruhi, just so he could stay with the Brigade).
Indeed, this is basically what I've tried to keep coming back to, but the way you phrase it--as a
necessity for them to stick around--is a particular detail of that issue that I'd neglected, and i found it very attractive when you mentioned it, so to an extent, I've tried to play that up here as a unifying theme.
Finally, there is one last issue I'd like to pick the brains of willing parties about: the end of the story is fast approaching (really, I only expect two more chapters and an epilogue or thereabouts, though I know that the even the best-laid plans can be changed). There are details in this chapter, in particular, that must be settled firmly as this is a point of no return. So, I would welcome opinions on the following point, which regards some particulars about the ending.
This actually came up also due to Arakawa's comment. I realized that, as long as Haruhi has powers, the others in the brigade (outside of Kyon) will be compelled in some way to stick around, and their freedom to choose is weakened. This is by no means the only way they can be so freed, but it struck me as exceptionally simple.
With that in mind, for the ending I see three choices:
1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff. Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.
2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented. It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act. A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along. I'm not sure I want to stay that. Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.
3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future. This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless. But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on. Hence, I thought it worth considering..
I realize it may be difficult to evaluate the pros and cons of those choices without a more detailed view of what the ending is--that is, the circumstances surrounding these choices--and if needed, I can provide those details. Alternatively, I can understand if asking this sort of open-ended question is not viewed well. To me, the ending of a story is critically important. I almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way. Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.
Anyway, regardless of input or lack thereof on the topic above, let me thank you all again for what input you felt you could provide. I know I've made mistakes with this story, so I'm very appreciative of people's patience.
Okay, of course, I can't choose your ending for you. I can only say that Haruhi giving up her powers would be unsatisfying, probably because I've seen it done several times already. The other alternatives depend a lot more heavily on what your ending actually is. But in general, this seems a reasonable dilemma to be exploring, so I'm no longer worried that the ending is going to throw some unpleasant surprise my way...
EDIT: I guess the point is that Haruhi's choice is such a deep and personal interpretation issue, that it's hard to say much about it beyond "well, X resonates with me personally, Y doesn't". So your ending is going to have to be one which... hopefully... is the one that comes closest to satisfying you on a deep and personal level. It's hard to offer good advice on such a matter.
(Of course, I'm bumping up against the same sort of question with my own fic. To the point that the standard modus operandi of every single antagonist boils down to attempting to Hannibal Lecture Haruhi into misusing her powers. Well... what else can they do, really? In the end, my context for the question seems to be very different... but I'm certainly curious to see how it will be answered in your fic since it may very well give me an idea I hadn't considered previously.)
Although, personally, if I were in Haruhi's position in this particular fic?
I'd procrastinate, procrastinate, and eventually to get rid of the immediate pressure on me from the various Brigade factions freaking out, I'd be extremely tempted to cook up some convoluted fake crisis (you know the standard fanfiction drill -- I think 'Blunt Force Trauma' or maybe 'The Melancholy of Shinigami Ryuk' would probably both be straightforward examples -- Haruhi loses control of her powers and does something weird, situation comes to a crisis, the loose ends are tied up via the ever-convenient Haruhi Gets Amnesia thing... except nothing is actually at risk and Haruhi doesn't lose control of her powers and only pretends to get amnesia). Then the masquerade runs both ways, amusingly enough, and Haruhi has a, maybe, remote possibility of getting along with the faction members on the somewhat more even terms that had been developing prior to this whole 'Haruhi is now aware of her own powers' detour. Maybe there's a wink and a nudge to Kyon that Haruhi is still self-aware, or maybe she fully confides in him what she's doing and what she hopes to accomplish.
I don't know, that's a really weird and potentially squicky idea -- Haruhi deciding to hide behind the masquerade might be sort of unsympathetic depending on how it's justified. (It's sort of a deconstruction of the 'Haruhi fanfiction must always reset to status quo via increasingly implausible methods' thing, since it's only the appearance of status quo that's produced here). Maybe it's weird enough to nudge you into having some other idea you would not have had.
Quote(Of course, I'm bumping up against the same sort of question with my own fic. To the point that the standard modus operandi of every single antagonist boils down to attempting to Hannibal Lecture Haruhi into misusing her powers. Well... what else can they do, really? In the end, my context for the question seems to be very different... but I'm certainly curious to see how it will be answered in your fic since it may very well give me an idea I hadn't considered previously.)
Seriously. I was just thinking the other day about how much more difficult it is to write a
Haruhi story with a serious antagonist without running into the trump card of Haruhi's powers and how to get around them. Say you wanted a slider to be the principal enemy; you could, in principle, say that Haruhi's powers don't apply to matter from other universes, but that'd be an awfully convenient distinction. Everything else requires subterfuge and deception and, well, at some point it just doesn't make sense to think that Haruhi will always be so vulnerable to such methods. Eventually, she's going to catch on.
Regarding (spoiler) idea,
I do think that runs into good intentions versus the fridge horror of deceiving the rest of the brigade (whether Kyon is included in that or not). But that could definitely be done with the setup I have in place. I think the basic sentiment is sound--Haruhi should do something to relieve the members of the brigade of their obligations. I think that's what I'll try to keep in mind.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 01:52:29 AM
Seriously. I was just thinking the other day about how much more difficult it is to write a Haruhi story with a serious antagonist without running into the trump card of Haruhi's powers and how to get around them. Say you wanted a slider to be the principal enemy; you could, in principle, say that Haruhi's powers don't apply to matter from other universes, but that'd be an awfully convenient distinction. Everything else requires subterfuge and deception and, well, at some point it just doesn't make sense to think that Haruhi will always be so vulnerable to such methods. Eventually, she's going to catch on.
Ah, thinking about it on the Slider Yutaka level? I guess the difficulty with that character is that the very idea requires her to be repeatedly successful in what she attempts, across multiple universes. When you remove that constraint, though, an antagonist no longer has to display magical aptitude for playing on Haruhi's negative aspects to be remotely plausible in their role. The fact that Haruhi is a force of reality not subject to anyone's control, doesn't mean that proud and foolish people aren't going to attempt to gain control of her anyways. Or to spar with her for even more petty reasons.
And when it's incredibly obvious that Haruhi is going to get what she wants sooner or later, the only way to stop her (whether or not you're an antagonist) becomes to make her question whether what she wants is really the right thing. The deception presented to Haruhi can have enough truth mixed into it that meaningful tension is created...
Or at least that's my medium-term line of thinking. Right now I still have to find the time to deal with my C&C backlog, then wrap up the convolutions of getting Mikuru that ice cream sandwich...
QuoteAh, thinking about it on the Slider Yutaka level?
More or less. I was thinking how much the recent trend of things seems to be to focus on the internal dynamics of the brigade in isolation as opposed to, say, how they respond to an external force. Whether it's a slider or someone else, if it's brigade vs. (blank), the practical issues to challenging Haruhi's power are ever-present. It may be that any solution other than deception is contrived, and it's just the level of specificity, of how creative we as authors get to make such a method make sense, that makes the contrivance acceptable. So really, I was thinking it's okay to give Haruhi absolute control over anything in this universe, but she can be threatened by things that are, er, outside this universe?
Eh, it's probably splitting hairs a bit too thin. Any other physicist I know would probably say that such power violates the notion that matter and energy ought to be indistinguishable regardless of universe or some such. You know, if stuff could travel between universes.
Hum. I'm going to take a shot at this, but I still don't read this story (sorry); feel free to throw out all my commentary if it doesn't serve you.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff. Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.
I think it can happen easily enough; Haruhi simply needs to learn the power of compromise over force (something I don't really recall you having Haruhi do/demonstrate a capacity for in this story as far as I read). With that, she can use her powers to help her friends in ways they approve of/actually want.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented. It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act. A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along. I'm not sure I want to stay that. Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.
My gut reaction (considering, admittedly, my VERY biased perception on how you presented Haruhi, and the reason I had to step back) is to say that this is the best answer. But that's incredibly biased.
Anyway. There was a rant here, but I caught myself and deleted it. bleah
Okay: I can't help but feel that Haruhi's powers honestly deny her any chance for adventure now that she has mastery over it. There's nothing to challenge her, and she'll incredibly quickly grow bored, _especially_ with humanity.
Having her learn to curb herself (from your presentation of her) may also work in this front; she needs to assign herself arbitrary limitations in order to have any challenges to overcome. Actually, I think Greg Zerich portrayed this pretty well in his Severance (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5226177/1/The_Severance_of_Haruhi_Suzumiya) (though, I had some issues with Haruhi's behavior before that point; that's just me).
Looking for the stormclouds is great, and awesome. I don't feel (again, personally), that Haruhi's behavior in your story actually demonstrates this well. Instead of exploration, her approach tends to feel like escapism. There's a compromise between these ideals, and I think she needs to find it if you don't want to go with this ending.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future. This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless. But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on. Hence, I thought it worth considering..
I can actually see
this working phenomenally. In order for it to really work off, Haruhi has to judge herself incapable/irresponsible with her own powers, and set conditions that she has to meet in order to get them restored to her. That way, she can tell her friends, "Yeah, the Yasumi-protocol will kick in if we're threatened, but I've locked away intentional access to my powers until I can handle them better, and they're not something that makes you terrified of things. Let's talk things out on the level." or the like.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AMI almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way. Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.
I think the only reason you're not sure what the ending is going to be is because I ranted at you one time too many. -_-
I apologize for that again Muphrid. :\
Anyway; you shouldn't feel bad about asking for help ... that's kind of what this section of SR is all about. :)
So. I hope this is in some way helpful to you. :)
Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2011, 07:30:29 PM
Hum. I'm going to take a shot at this, but I still don't read this story (sorry); feel free to throw out all my commentary if it doesn't serve you.
By all means, I'm very appreciative.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM1) Haruhi keeps her powers but tries to do better by her friends through, uh, general agreement instead of independent action and wanton use of powers...stuff. Even in this box, I don't want to give too much away, but this is the originally envisioned content of the ending.
I think it can happen easily enough; Haruhi simply needs to learn the power of compromise over force (something I don't really recall you having Haruhi do/demonstrate a capacity for in this story as far as I read). With that, she can use her powers to help her friends in ways they approve of/actually want.
Right, so, thinking about this more, I realize that this option is very execution dependent, even though it's the one I always intended (yes, even before the chapter four fiasco). The allure of this scenario is that, if done correctly, it would be the ultimate uplifting ending: Haruhi will have learned that these friendships and nurturing them are more important to her and that all the adventures and strange things in the world mean nothing if she doesn't have other people around her to share in them. Keeping her powers and using them wisely is a mechanism to do that. I say it's all execution dependent because it will take a very nuanced and precise approach to pull off. It would be easy to get wrong. That's my perception, at least.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM2) Haruhi relinquishes her powers, determined to have friendships that aren't colored by the implicit coercion her powers presented. It's definitive and final for this reason, but I do wonder if it makes sense for Haruhi to take such a bold step, to finally stop looking for storm clouds on the horizon or to throw away that coin as a symbolic act. A concern I'd have about this is that it says Haruhi's enthusiasm for the unusual was invalid or unimportant all along. I'm not sure I want to stay that. Maybe it can be mitigated through spinning the events the right way, but it puts me off an otherwise attractive idea.
My gut reaction (considering, admittedly, my VERY biased perception on how you presented Haruhi, and the reason I had to step back) is to say that this is the best answer. But that's incredibly biased.
Anyway. There was a rant here, but I caught myself and deleted it. bleah
Okay: I can't help but feel that Haruhi's powers honestly deny her any chance for adventure now that she has mastery over it. There's nothing to challenge her, and she'll incredibly quickly grow bored, _especially_ with humanity.
Having her learn to curb herself (from your presentation of her) may also work in this front; she needs to assign herself arbitrary limitations in order to have any challenges to overcome. Actually, I think Greg Zerich portrayed this pretty well in his Severance (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5226177/1/The_Severance_of_Haruhi_Suzumiya) (though, I had some issues with Haruhi's behavior before that point; that's just me).
Looking for the stormclouds is great, and awesome. I don't feel (again, personally), that Haruhi's behavior in your story actually demonstrates this well. Instead of exploration, her approach tends to feel like escapism. There's a compromise between these ideals, and I think she needs to find it if you don't want to go with this ending.
Right, so the appeal I perceive here is that Haruhi comes to a more definitive conclusion: her powers are ultimately meaningless compred to the value of those friendships (which she should've valued more all along). You hit on something very pertinent: a total depowering leaves the group at the mercy of outside forces. Certainly, even if the Entity is no longer interested in Haruhi, they may decide to have Nagato "repurposed" or some such for efficiency and Haruhi would be in no position to stop it. Imposing a limitation would require some nuance, I guess.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AM3) Haruhi relinquishes her powers in the present but can regain them at some unspecified point in the future. This is a "have your cake and eat it too" solution, and for that element in itself I'm wary, as it threatens to make the choice utterly pointless. But, it does let me keep some established ideas about what Haruhi would do with her powers later on. Hence, I thought it worth considering..
I can actually see this working phenomenally. In order for it to really work off, Haruhi has to judge herself incapable/irresponsible with her own powers, and set conditions that she has to meet in order to get them restored to her. That way, she can tell her friends, "Yeah, the Yasumi-protocol will kick in if we're threatened, but I've locked away intentional access to my powers until I can handle them better, and they're not something that makes you terrified of things. Let's talk things out on the level." or the like.
So, in this sense, what's necessary for (2) not to leave the brigade open starts running together with (3). I think I have a pretty clear idea of how this can be pulled off, too. A Haruhi depowered but with some sort of emergency button in place gives her the chance to renew these friendships under totally open and honest terms, where the threat she poses doesn't compel Nagato, Asahina, and Koizumi to stick around out of necessity. I guess I just want to make sure the decision isn't undercut by the stopgap in any way.
As you may have noticed, I'm still kind of talking this out to myself, too.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 12:33:24 AMI almost always have an image of how a story ends perhaps even before I know the beginning, so to have elements of that still be in flux at this late time is troubling to me and, possibly, something that shouldn't be exposed to a wide set of opinions in this way. Nevertheless, I know I've made missteps with this story, so I felt asking first couldn't do harm.
I think the only reason you're not sure what the ending is going to be is because I ranted at you one time too many. -_-
I apologize for that again Muphrid. :\
Anyway; you shouldn't feel bad about asking for help ... that's kind of what this section of SR is all about. :)
No worries. As I said, it's something I should've considered before, and Arakawa's comment really got me thinking about it. I know you've been soured on this story, and I'm just hoping to learn enough and be more analytical and critical of myself to avoid that with future stories.
QuoteSo. I hope this is in some way helpful to you. :)
Indeed, thanks for the help, Brian. I think, thanks to you and Arakawa, I'm getting a better idea of what I want to do going forward, but it may still take some hard thinking.
Here we are again. I've still been a bit concerned about how everything fits together in chapter seven, but I didn't want to let that hold me up as far as getting along, so here is a draft of chapter eight. I will probably end up writing chapter nine and the epilogue together, since there's a lot of interaction there with how things play out. Thanks again for all the help and input folks were able to provide on seven and the greater issues incurred there.
I read it, any comments back will be a bit. I need some time to process that chapter.
I'm in a low-C&C-time period, still, but let me just say that the improvements to Chapter 7 are substantial. Any nitpicks I'd have with the rewritten scene are just minor questions of how to convey the remorse without being quite so vehement with the self-castigation, but at that point anything I suggest has to do with differing character interpretations.
Chapter 8 is pretty heavy, but it justifies the work needed to make the character sympathetic beforehand, since Haruhi makes some clear and evident mistakes in it, which are justified in terms of how the story is playing out.
Still, there could probably be tweaks you might consider making to either the outcome or the things leading up to it that cause Haruhi to act that way. Fundamentally, Haruhi decides to destroy the IDSE based on knowing that two of its representatives are bad eggs, and one of its representatives was treated badly to the point of nervous breakdown. Want me to make a similar argument about the human race?
And obliterating Kimidori first is necessary to the structure of the chapter, but also kind of nonsensical. If I needed to convey the flavour of serious damage being done, I'd have gone with something like "both of the hostile interfaces are now trapped in a pocket universe five metres in diameter, and it'll reach maximum entropy in fifteen minutes. They'd better start talking now if they want to convince Haruhi not to obliterate the both of them, and she's seriously thinking of erasing the entire IDSE since they insist on being too dangerous to coexist with." But this is assuming a more calculating sort of Haruhi. The point in general being -- she has omnipotence, and an extremely creative mind, but for some reason she reaches straight for the cosmic sledgehammer.
The only way to nullify that is if Asakura tries to bluff her into thinking the IDSE has her stolen her power and she has to act now and destroy it (if that's actually the case, it didn't come across too well; it feels like the situation is open to interpretation). If Haruhi's actions really are due to panic, I can definitely see how "Haruhi renounces her powers in some temporary fashion" would be the right note to end this story on.
(The scene with Taniguchi, on the other hand, comes across well. I assume you intentionally wanted to demonstrate Haruhi's lack of foresight on how he'd react. If Haruhi had foreseen that Taniguchi wouldn't take it well, she'd have probably left, reversed the subconscious-memory-erasing thing, given Taniguchi a few hours to come to grips with the situation, then come back. He might still want to hit her, but at that point it would be a more honest context for the sentiment, and there'd be a bit more chance that Haruhi'd be able to convince him to hear her out.)
Also the whole bit with Rooter is presented a bit confusingly. It made me think at first that they didn't notice the Haruhi had granted him powers, but then it turned out that was the whole point of the IDSE messing around with the Piggies in the first place, so I assume the explanation is that they couldn't duplicate his abilities in the replacement? Or is it that they know Haruhi did something, but they didn't manage to figure out what it was based on just the dissection? Colour me confused.
Don't know when I'll be able to do more detailed C&C :-(
Muphrid, I feel really bad about this at such a late hour, but I was chatting with Dunefar last night when I suddenly fridged on something major (in my opinion):
Back in chapter three (I think), why does Taniguchi throw a fit and consider violence vs. a known reality warper over a drink spilled on his uniform? For reference, he only groused when he was thrown into a lake entirely and
didn't know Haruhi had powers (and, incidentally, had much better justification to hold her responsible).
I realize if Taniguchi didn't do this, then your entire plot point of 'Haruhi angsts over hurting someone with her powers' falls short ... but in reflection, it's one of those factors that had me saying 'idiot ball'.
Anyway. There's another comment here, but considering I can't read this first-hand, my advice is worth less than garbage; be prepared to ignore this comment with a vengeance. I was given a brief summary of the events I hadn't read, and I wanted to point out something that (I feel) comes across as another unintentional, 'Haruhi is willing to trust complete strangers more than the Brigade' element. Unless there was a miscommunication:
Haruhi goes on her exotic space journey because you really liked that arc and wanted to include it. Evidently, she also gives some piece of her power to Rooter. (Er ... straining things, IMNSHO.) She then comes back and based on Arakawa's comments, angsts about not taking Kyon on that journey.
This feels like a huge issue-- She feels bad about not including Kyon, and yet Kyon never enters considerations to 'have a piece of Haruhi's power'? She's concerned about the imbalance, and she'll give some alien she's known for less than a day a chunk of omnipotence, but not Kyon? Another instance of the solution being right in front of her, and Haruhi simply not going for it.
This is before Haruhi is evidently required to kill Kimidori/Asakura (which, also feels very, very wrong; I wouldn't be able to sympathize with an omnipotent murderer). I can think of a dozen better ways for Haruhi to deal with the situation, right up to and including replacing the Rooter they dissected with a very convincing dummy and pulling him out of a convenient time paradox (yay, Crono Trigger!). As I understand it, Haruhi has carte blanch with her powers, so there's no reason she can't have her cake and eat it too in this instance.
I feel that the 'alien planet' framework would be better for her to do things she couldn't get away with on Earth because her friends would freak out, including blaise violations of causality to prevent the space psychos from dicing up her alien friend.
I think based on your comments in thread that I get what you're going for, and I suspect it's:
[spoiler]Either because she 'had' to annihilate those two (or more likely, the reactions from the Brigade to it) that she comes to the 'can't be trusted with her powers' conclusion. Let me just say for the record:
Someone who can figure it out without needing to use omnipotence as (in Arakawa's words) a Cosmic Sledgehammer is far more sympathetic, and Haruhi should be intelligent enough to go for that conclusion, and not just accept what was done and then do something worse.
IE., I don't see why Haruhi can't fix it, can't then also just 'ban' the IDSE from interfering with Rooter's home system, warn them that something bad will happen if they screw with things again (and leave it vague), and then come to the conclusion that 'playing with powers even with the best of intentions is dangerous because there are real jerks out there'. Really, using this to have Haruhi figure things out when she didn't over nuking Taniguchi actually would cost me sympathy, not win it.
Let's not even go into the vague, poorly understood (on my part) mental violation issues that are referenced elsewhere, and how certain others in this forum would respond to that; I don't have enough of an image of how that's supposed to work to comment on it.
Anyway. Haruhi throwing a temper tantrum and summoning Asakura/Kimidori (after she's finished fixing things, thereby preventing their opportunity to observe) to tell them, "And now I'm going to make it so you can _never_ observe my powers, because your approach sucked!" feels like it would be truer to her character.
I think that an entire chapter of recrimination over the reactions of the Brigade to her more-than-just-murder of Asakura/Kimidori would probably take this fic into wangst as I understand it; give Haruhi more credit than that and let her grow without those anvils being dropped on her. If you feel this is beyond Haruhi ... then make her sympathetic by not knowing what to do about it and running back to the Brigade for help/advice.
Just my, well, probably way more than two cents at this point. :x
[/spoiler]
Um ... yes. Going to leave it at that, sorry. Can't think of anything else. Best of luck, and I really, really hope this helps. :\
Edit: One of the difficulties here is that while I am difficult to squick,
'utter and irrevocable destruction' (especially of sentient beings) is
one of the things that does it. So having Haruhi pull that on someone(s) for things that she does have the power to reverse.... Yeah, sorry. :/
This chapter's tough to review since the ending was one hell of a punch. Spoilers beyond this point.
I thought the chapter started strong with Haruhi talking to her classmate. It was a good simple talk that helped her focus. I liked it and felt it did what it should do. The calm, reasonable classmate was a good counter-point to everything else that happened.
The club meeting afterwards was nice, as she tried to do right by her friends. I liked that her approach, and in particular how she got past Kyon's objection. That was a much needed high note after the last chapter or two, and it shows Haruhi trying to do better as best she can.
From there her meeting with Taniguchi is shakier. I understand why she did it and it makes sense from her PoV to try and make amends and take responsibility, but the fallout is considerable. I feel it's a fair mistake for her to make, but at the same time it was painful to read. The scene after with Kyon was much nicer, though, and a good counter-point again. This chapter had a good rhythm of up and down, on that note.
As for the last bits, I agree with Arakawa Seijio. I feel it's ultimately meant to be the final ingredient to what propels her end-story choice. In particular, I get the feeling the reaction of her friends to what she did is going to make Haruhi do something. Maybe she'll give up her powers or limit them, I'm not sure.
One idea did come to mind. If she's trying to do better by her friends and can split up her power, why not give everyone in the club some of it? If she comes to the conclusion they're her friends and what keeps her grounded, it makes a certain sense. A sort of Captain Planet approach, almost.
Okay, so there's a lot going on here. First, for Arakawa, I think you hit upon something that had given me some trouble, so it doesn't surprise me that it puzzled you, either, in retrospect:
QuoteAlso the whole bit with Rooter is presented a bit confusingly. It made me think at first that they didn't notice the Haruhi had granted him powers, but then it turned out that was the whole point of the IDSE messing around with the Piggies in the first place, so I assume the explanation is that they couldn't duplicate his abilities in the replacement? Or is it that they know Haruhi did something, but they didn't manage to figure out what it was based on just the dissection? Colour me confused.
So, originally, I didn't plan for Asakura and the Entity to actually gain powers by cutting up Rooter, but then I realized if they didn't, then they still pose no significant threat to Haruhi--that's not just a problem for making things happen, but it felt like there would be no real tension, either. In addition, the part where Asakura suddenly
moves when time is supposed to be stopped was, uh, very appealing to me (like something out of a horror film; I really wanted to get some punch on that part). I couldn't see her defying Haruhi's powers in such a manner without having a piece or fraction of them herself.
At the same time, though, that was at odds with the original idea--that something about the facsimile of Rooter is imperfect and Haruhi picks up on it. I think at first I wanted that to be that Rooter would no longer understand Haruhi, but then I realized the Entity already understands human speech well enough and should be able to put that into any construct it creates. So, fake-Rooter has no powers because (hand-wavingly?) the Entity couldn't create something else with powers, only "absorb" or learn them itself.
...I do realize how unsatisfying that may sound, so some additional wordage to get some of those details across (or a rethinking of how that all works) is almost certainly required.
I'm going a bit out of order here.
QuoteStill, there could probably be tweaks you might consider making to either the outcome or the things leading up to it that cause Haruhi to act that way. Fundamentally, Haruhi decides to destroy the IDSE based on knowing that two of its representatives are bad eggs, and one of its representatives was treated badly to the point of nervous breakdown. Want me to make a similar argument about the human race?
And obliterating Kimidori first is necessary to the structure of the chapter, but also kind of nonsensical. If I needed to convey the flavour of serious damage being done, I'd have gone with something like "both of the hostile interfaces are now trapped in a pocket universe five metres in diameter, and it'll reach maximum entropy in fifteen minutes. They'd better start talking now if they want to convince Haruhi not to obliterate the both of them, and she's seriously thinking of erasing the entire IDSE since they insist on being too dangerous to coexist with." But this is assuming a more calculating sort of Haruhi. The point in general being -- she has omnipotence, and an extremely creative mind, but for some reason she reaches straight for the cosmic sledgehammer.
The only way to nullify that is if Asakura tries to bluff her into thinking the IDSE has her stolen her power and she has to act now and destroy it (if that's actually the case, it didn't come across too well; it feels like the situation is open to interpretation). If Haruhi's actions really are due to panic, I can definitely see how "Haruhi renounces her powers in some temporary fashion" would be the right note to end this story on.
Several of you have remarked on the apparent overkill here. I admit, to an extent I was going for punch, but even without that concern, I suppose it's best for me to just spell out where that whole angle is going:
[spoiler]Haruhi
is omnipotent, and on further reflection, when the heat of the moment has passed, she will have the option to undo what she's done.
Granted, bringing people back from the dead is something I wanted to steer very clear of just for the moral and ethical mess I'd be walking into if I tackled it, but bringing a race of data creatures back from oblivion seems, in my mind, to avoid most of those concerns.
So, I don't want to completely deflect the criticism of the act: what Haruhi does here
is pretty extreme, but to me, the concern is whether her state of mind
at that moment makes it an act we can comprehen, rather than it being something in the long-run that irrevocably reflects negatively upon her (because bringing the Entity back from the recycle bin somewhat mitigates that part).
As for whether the
entire Entity should be subjected to that fate, that really goes to how you interpret "consensus to within one part in however zillion." Perhaps that line in itself is not enough to suggest clearly that nearly all of the Entity is in agreement with what's happening and so all of the Entity is liable for it.
[/spoiler]
Outside of spoiler territory for a moment, regarding fridge logic: I could say Taniguchi didn't fully appreciate or expect what Haruhi could do to retaliate against him back in chapter two, that the overall weirdness of what was happening really didn't sit well with him...but I admit I'm not wholly convinced by that line of reasoning, and
why Taniguchi did what he did is a valid question I'll have to ponder.
Back into fun boxes we go:
QuoteHaruhi goes on her exotic space journey because you really liked that arc and wanted to include it. Evidently, she also gives some piece of her power to Rooter. (Er ... straining things, IMNSHO.) She then comes back and based on Arakawa's comments, angsts about not taking Kyon on that journey.
This feels like a huge issue-- She feels bad about not including Kyon, and yet Kyon never enters considerations to 'have a piece of Haruhi's power'? She's concerned about the imbalance, and she'll give some alien she's known for less than a day a chunk of omnipotence, but not Kyon? Another instance of the solution being right in front of her, and Haruhi simply not going for it.
She gives Rooter the power to pull off exceedingly simple parlor tricks--moving pebbles, for instance. Enough to say there's something wild and mysterious going on but otherwise of little consequence. Why she doesn't give that to Kyon--I admit, that is something I had never considered. While I don't think Kyon would even want such a power, it's an idea that could cross Haruhi's mind, sure.
QuoteThis is before Haruhi is evidently required to kill Kimidori/Asakura (which, also feels very, very wrong; I wouldn't be able to sympathize with an omnipotent murderer). I can think of a dozen better ways for Haruhi to deal with the situation, right up to and including replacing the Rooter they dissected with a very convincing dummy and pulling him out of a convenient time paradox (yay, Crono Trigger!). As I understand it, Haruhi has carte blanch with her powers, so there's no reason she can't have her cake and eat it too in this instance.
Right, so this kind of connects with Arakawa's comments above. Really, I felt there was no reason for Haruhi to even feel threatened by Asakura unless she and the Entity managed to get a hold of the power Rooter had been given and learn from it.
...so I see there could be an apparent contradiction there, between what Haruhi giving Rooter being "inconsequential" and it needing to be dangerous enough that when Asakura and the Entity get it, that's grounds to go all-out and take the threat posed seriously.
The following speculation about what could happen next and how that plays into the ending possibilities I was considering is reasonable but not really the direction I was going to go for, so I'm not sure how much of it really applies to what's to come. Then again, with what Ana has suggested, these may be points I'll have to consider more carefully.
And finally, for Ana:
QuoteAs for the last bits, I agree with Arakawa Seijio. I feel it's ultimately meant to be the final ingredient to what propels her end-story choice. In particular, I get the feeling the reaction of her friends to what she did is going to make Haruhi do something. Maybe she'll give up her powers or limit them, I'm not sure.
Ultimately, while I didn't intend this incident to be the
final element that propels the end-story choice, this point does give me an idea on how to approach the beginning of the next chapter. I'm glad the chat with Sakanaka and Haruhi's effort to forge a new relationship with the brigade went over well, also.
Thank you all for your thoughts once again.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 07, 2011, 05:21:53 PMHaruhi is omnipotent, and on further reflection, when the heat of the moment has passed, she will have the option to undo what she's done.
[....]
So, I don't want to completely deflect the criticism of the act: what Haruhi does here is pretty extreme, but to me, the concern is whether her state of mind at that moment makes it an act we can comprehen, rather than it being something in the long-run that irrevocably reflects negatively upon her (because bringing the Entity back from the recycle bin somewhat mitigates that part).
Umph. I don't like to say this, but: We can only judge by what's written, not what you intend to write later. If someone is squicked/bothered by this chapter, retconnning it in a future chapter doesn't address it well if they /ragequit here.
I think that this is another instance of you wanting to convey something to the readers and not managing to actually do it in the narrative. Remember, only you know the blueprints for the entire story; we can only go by what's already written. Sorry to be so critical, but I think this is an element of writing in general you may wish to focus on.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 07, 2011, 05:21:53 PMOutside of spoiler territory for a moment, regarding fridge logic: I could say Taniguchi didn't fully appreciate or expect what Haruhi could do to retaliate against him back in chapter two, that the overall weirdness of what was happening really didn't sit well with him...but I admit I'm not wholly convinced by that line of reasoning, and why Taniguchi did what he did is a valid question I'll have to ponder.
Ech. This (and the 'why didn't Haruhi make the offer to Kyon?' question) really feels like it highlights my original 'characterization was a secondary/tertiary concern' issue (number one being 'Haruhi's powers', and two being 'style') on your priority list when you set out to write this story.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 07, 2011, 05:21:53 PMShe gives Rooter the power to pull off exceedingly simple parlor tricks--moving pebbles, for instance. Enough to say there's something wild and mysterious going on but otherwise of little consequence. Why she doesn't give that to Kyon--I admit, that is something I had never considered. While I don't think Kyon would even want such a power, it's an idea that could cross Haruhi's mind, sure.
The books actually point out that Kyon would have liked that specific power; he once spent an entire day trying to find out if he had it. Would he want it after watching Haruhi abuse her powers as she has? Maybe then he would refuse on the grounds of trying to provide a better example to Haruhi/lack of trust in his own restraint at that point.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 07, 2011, 05:21:53 PMRight, so this kind of connects with Arakawa's comments above. Really, I felt there was no reason for Haruhi to even feel threatened by Asakura unless she and the Entity managed to get a hold of the power Rooter had been given and learn from it.
...so I see there could be an apparent contradiction there, between what Haruhi giving Rooter being "inconsequential" and it needing to be dangerous enough that when Asakura and the Entity get it, that's grounds to go all-out and take the threat posed seriously.
Why does Haruhi need to be threatened? To justify the overkill? These all seem to point to 'plot element is being forced', which leads naturally to: 'this plot element is not a good match for the story thus far'. You didn't start this as a Cosmic horror story, and (going back to my last reply) I don't think it's served by abruptly becoming one; these things cost the narrator sympathy.
Just like how Haruhi's thoughts about bringing Taniguchi back from the dead if she absolutely have to -- these don't point to a capable, sympathetic character, but instead a being who sees all of creation (and all sentient beings in it) as toys to empower or dismantle as she sees fit for amusement. I realize it's difficult to describe an omnipotent character and make them sympathetic, but the solution to that isn't bypassing character growth to justify their actions, IMNSHO.
Being upset about what Asakura/Kimidori did should really be plenty for Haruhi, shouldn't it? Admittedly, all the way from your original prologue, and back to the issues with Taniguchi and Haruhi uncovered here, I have to admit ... I don't feel you have a very good grasp of the characters, and it really does feel (to me) that characterization's just not a priority for you in your writing, as opposed to exploring the actual mechanical limitations/potential of Haruhi's power. :(
I think, in retrospect, that's actually the root of all my issues with this story, as characterization is always the primary concern for me in this fandom. Certainly, it would explain our differing viewpoints on it. Well, knowing why we disagree, I can say with confidence that you can completely ignore almost everything I've said so far, because my priorities in writing obviously differ greatly from yours.
I think at this point, the best advice I can offer is not to bother trying to fix characterization issues, and just follow your own instincts on the story you want to tell. I really cannot see my advice having much positive bearing. If it helps you, I'm glad. If it doesn't ... well, ignore it.
Edit: Thought on the fridge issue -- at this point, it's a bandaid, but just say Ryouko pushed him to do that, too. If you've decided the story needs a villain, that'd neatly fold that into the main thread.
I have put in some tweaks on chapter seven (mostly diction, grammatical, so not worth any special attention, but presented for completeness), and I've revised chapter eight to be, well, less cosmic sledgehammery. My main concern there was to make sure the final scene still had dramatic impact while making the necessary and proper logical changes to the way the scene works, and I think this solution should be a step in the right direction.
I just realized.... You're not posting these to the FFML before ff.net, anymore?
No, I felt the extra complexity of trying to keep track of criticism from two different sources wasn't worth the hassle knowing what I could expect from Henry. I also felt that, if I would frequently end up with multiple versions and revisions, it would get quite spammy on the list.
In retrospect, I realize now I could've sent off a revision there after making most of the fixes that would come up here and at least avoided the latter issue.
That explains it.
...somewhat amused/relieved I'm not the only one with issues with Cobb. >_>;
This is the final chapter and the epilogue.
Chapter nine is somewhat technical in terms of stuff with powers, and while I do not find such matters inherently interesting, I felt some issues had to be addressed for logical consistency. Nevertheless, I am concerned that it is much more technical than the rest of the work, so I'd be interested in how that comes across.
Beyond that, these two chapters should make my intentions, even if imperfectly executed as I expect, somewhat clearer.
In order to be quicker with feedback, I'll throw down initial thoughts. We'll see if I have time for more detailed stuff, but overall it struck me as a great ending to a reasonable story. I'm not sure why you labeled the last chapter an 'epilogue' since Chapter Nine would just cut off abruptly and leave too much unresolved on its own. (In my possibly-arbitrary opinion.)
Spoilery throughts:
I think Haruhi telling herself that she was going to take the slow path to the future violates one of the foremost unspoken rules for talking to your past self. What if she wouldn't have opted for it otherwise? Haruhi's options are (a) erase her own memory (if she's really creative) and be free to make the decision on her own, which however implies that she gets it into her head to go back and tell herself something she didn't remember telling herself in the first place, (b) resign herself to carrying out the future as her future self explained it would be (it could be fun, but it's not necessarily a decision she could have arrived at on her own), (c) do something else, go back and lie to herself, (d) figure out some entirely new way to rape causality in order to avoid getting trapped in a decision made for her by a closed timelike curve.
In short, as Miss Manners would say "going back in time to meet yourself and telling yourself decisions that you yourself were going to make is bound to result in you putting yourself in an awkward situation. And even if you're okay with it on both ends of the conversation, it looks fairly unsettling to any bystanders. Avoid if at all possible."
There's a number of ways to fix this; I'd personally opt to reduce the information transfer to a "don't ask a lady her age"-type wink and a nod to the effect that Haruhi might look twenty-five, but she's actually much, much older than that... it's up to you if you want to figure out some way to do a full reveal without making it look like Haruhi's future self is forcing her into a decision, or decide on some set of hints that tells enough of the story while leaving some details to the reader's imagination.
Note that you could conceivably trick the reader into imagining a future for Haruhi that is more exciting than you would have come up with explicitly.
(EDIT: It also occurs to me, though I'm not sure what the implications are - it's not clear how much of younger-Haruhi's personality and outlook Haruhi would retain after living for so long. Sure, she might still be Haruhi, but the differences might be great enough that older Haruhi might be forced to put on a bit of an act to be recognizable to the younger Haruhi as herself. I mean, Haruhi couldn't even predict how her four-years-younger self couldn't react to something... I don't know. Something I'll be thinking about.)
Let's see, what else.
The notion is that Haruhi's powers are a self-licking temporal paradox is simultaneously really logical and -- I think Haruhi would (later on) feel a bit disappointed that there wasn't a more fantastic explanation for it all in the end. (And it's actually simple enough that some of the technical speculation around it is kind of superfluous, although I found it interesting.) It also creates some pretty good tension in that I wasn't sure whether Haruhi might opt to give up her powers by transferring them to the younger self entirely -- you might actually want to acknowledge the existence of that alternative.
Anyhow, thank you for that fic. Besides the accidental nasty CTC, if there's any squick lurking in this phase, my nose is insufficiently attuned to sniff it out.
And now for some thread derailment!
Quote from: Brian on December 15, 2011, 02:48:00 PM
That explains it.
...somewhat amused/relieved I'm not the only one with issues with Cobb. >_>;
Confused as to what sorts of issues people have with Cobb. From looking at the FFML archives, he seems to start a lot of fics, I don't see the endings on FFML and I can't find a website, so I assume he loses interest in most of them and moves on to the next idea. His approach to characterization reminds me a bit of how I've seen some Lucky Star fic writers handle Lucky Star characters, by inserting them into a situation which has nothing to do with the original story (not that Lucky Star had a story...) and relying on the stereotyped interactions of the ensemble cast to produce an interesting and unexpected outcome out of the situation, which is fine with the Lucky Star girls who are precision-engineered to be cute and harmless, not so fine with the Haruhi cast who have significant personality flaws which benefit from a more careful treatment and seem to lose a lot if flanderized.
Though: don't get me started on his seitenkan stuff. (I
did read the sequel to the original Kyonko fic which to me helped elucidate where the original thing was coming from. One thing I noticed is that it hews a bit close to the stereotypes of how thoroughly dysfunctional (from my point of view) love can get in modern society. Which makes me think that the squick is unintentional on Cobb's part. Zillions of abusive boyfriends pull this crap, why not Haruki?)
I didn't see anything particularly egregious on Cobb's part in terms of C&C or other interaction, though I have to say I wasn't exactly looking for anything egregious, just browsing randomly. I assume that the advantage of FFML is that
most (some) of the drama gets confined to exchanges over personal email?
Why am I analyzing Cobb again? I haven't even read much of his stuff or interacted with him. I may be way off the mark. Meh.
*goes off to make time to work on own fic*
As far as the abruptness of the ending of nine goes, I can definitely see that. I'm not sure what to do there as ten (the "epilogue") doesn't strike me as structured right for me to consider it a chapter similar to the others.
Agreed completely on future-Haruhi not saying explicitly how she's going to live her life in the future. I could go with saying just the hat hasn't skipped around and not saying what Haruhi was doing.
As far as future-Haruhi's behavior, that did occur to me about personality. In that respect, oldest Asahina is somewhat more developed. Perhaps the moment future Haruhi starts talking about how the hat has survived a few centuries is the time for any mask of acting like her younger self to slip a little, if going for the idea above.
Hm, your thought process on acknowledging the possibility of giving powers and removing them from herself is the opposite thought process from mine. I thought by acknowledging that point, I would create an extra layer of complexity that I'd have to explain away--why Haruhi would choose to keep her powers. I didn't want to go there, but in retrospect, that's a question that likely does need answering. (My answer: Haruhi is no longer negative on her powers, and while she won't use them for sweeping changes in the world, she doesn't see the point in getting rid of them either, especially when they can protect her and the brigade from outside influences and harm...maybe?)
Does the CTC from future Haruhi telling Haruhi how she'll live her life feel palpably worse than the CTC formed by Haruhi giving powers to her younger self in 9? In that, there was something I also deliberately left out--the idea of Haruhi altering her younger self's memory or, possibly, her younger self doing that all on her own.
I suppose I'd be interested in more focused thoughts on 9 in general if you have the chance, though there's no particular hurry in this respect, as I still need to do a final diction/grammar pass on 8. In this, I really just hoped this ending had an air or kernel of believability and that it followed well enough to consider this whole back fourth of the story as having enough of a skeleton to stand on (that it didn't fall apart from the weight of what's come before, due to inconsistencies or what-have-you). In context of the discussion earlier about which ending to choose,
The ending written is more or less the ending I envisioned, as before. The alternative of Haruhi sealing away her powers permanently, while attractive from a symbolic standpoint, I couldn't see fit to do from a practical standpoint (again, thinking about what other things could jeopardize the brigade, not having powers just seemed very risky). The third option of Haruhi sealing her powers temporarily could've worked, but I felt it devalued her choice to liberate the Entity, as she would have to make the decision about her powers before freeing them. Then it'd be odd.
As far as Henry Cobb goes, I just didn't feel I could have truly productive interaction with him. His writing turned me off by the sheer flatness of it, making the process of critiquing his work a somewhat unpleasant for me, just for the effort needed to stay with it and not lose focus. Aside from that, I really struggled to find a greater point to his work (particularly with "Taniguchi and Kunikida Are Dead") and...couldn't. He could provide good catches on spelling and grammar and subtle logical errors of scene (when someone "sees" something that should be behind them, for instance)--useful stuff, but only so useful. That's why I felt I couldn't engage him properly and be engaged in return.
Anyway, thanks very much for your thoughts, Arakawa. Already I definitely see a couple things to be tweaked, but I'm happy that the overall gist seems to have worked.
Oh, on Cobb.... Spoilering it to minimize the screen-space this digression takes.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on December 19, 2011, 10:30:18 PMConfused as to what sorts of issues people have with Cobb. From looking at the FFML archives, he seems to start a lot of fics, I don't see the endings on FFML and I can't find a website, so I assume he loses interest in most of them and moves on to the next idea.
He does post somewhere. I don't care enough to find out where, but I recall him mentioning it. However -- you're not missing the ends of his fics. That's actually how they generally finish. He's currently doing some other story '
Score', I think-- But his characters seldom feel like the originals to me. His Kyon has a lot of Kyon-like behaviors, everyone else is always a caricature with little (if anything) to do with the original cast.
Beyond that he doesn't like the idea of Haruhi as a character at all -- so he always replaces her personality with something he thinks is more interesting. I wish I could disclaim that this was just my opinion, but he actually flat-out stated it in one of his e-mails. Because of this, in my view, he always manages to recreate Haruhi as some strain of horrific monster. When I asked him if he had some stance against making her likable, he basically told me: "If you want to read a likeable Haruhi, get into Ouran High School fanfic."
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on December 19, 2011, 10:30:18 PMThough: don't get me started on his seitenkan stuff. (I did read the sequel to the original Kyonko fic which to me helped elucidate where the original thing was coming from. One thing I noticed is that it hews a bit close to the stereotypes of how thoroughly dysfunctional (from my point of view) love can get in modern society. Which makes me think that the squick is unintentional on Cobb's part. Zillions of abusive boyfriends pull this crap, why not Haruki?)
It doesn't bother me that the squick is unintentional on his part. It does bother me that he doesn't care. Beyond that, urg. Don't get me started on how disgusted that whole thing made me. Hopefully that will be the last time an e-mail inspires me to use the 'enraged/flipping over a table' ascii bit: （╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on December 19, 2011, 10:30:18 PMI didn't see anything particularly egregious on Cobb's part in terms of C&C or other interaction, though I have to say I wasn't exactly looking for anything egregious, just browsing randomly. I assume that the advantage of FFML is that most (some) of the drama gets confined to exchanges over personal email?
He only ever sent me a single personal e-mail, and it was to ask me to co-write his 'Eclipse' fic, which was right when.... Come to think of it, I'm not positive, but I get a feeling he only really started posting Haruhi fiction because
I did. I wouldn't have any way to know about personal e-mails between other list members other than rumors that Lurker used to constantly flame people privately back in the day.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on December 19, 2011, 10:30:18 PMWhy am I analyzing Cobb again? I haven't even read much of his stuff or interacted with him. I may be way off the mark. Meh.
Not ... that far off at all, really.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 20, 2011, 12:08:48 AMAside from that, I really struggled to find a greater point to his work (particularly with "Taniguchi and Kunikida Are Dead") and...couldn't.
BAH. The 'then suddenly: Lesbian Sasaki/Haruhi matchup!' ending really ticked me off on that one. Made Sasaki come across as extremely unsympathetic for all of the Sasaki/Kyon shipping on her part before that travesty.
Bleah. Puts a bad taste in my mouth still. Almost everything he writes in the Haruhi fandom, I personally find distasteful. His suggestion that I set New Game+ to the genderflipped universe because he thought it would be 'funnier'.... And that was the entirety of his C&C on it, too. >_<
Well, that explained Cobb nicely. Personal conclusion: sort of an aggressive blandness (if you can call it that) that's fine from a distance, but irritating to work with up close.
Also, Muphrid, I forgot to mention it: the "Kyon writes 'The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya' novels, is therefore actually Nagaru Tanigawa" thing didn't really add anything, in my opinion. Not even bothering to spoiler tag it since I've only seen that done, um, two, maybe three times already and it didn't add much those times either. It's fine as a throwaway sort of thing, but is that really the right note to
end the entire fic on? Moreover, the other times I've seen it done were in NG+ (in a rewound timeline where the corresponding events never actually happened) and some fic I can't remember (where he went to an alternate universe to publish it). Here he did it right in Haruhi's home universe which gave me a headache just thinking about -- um, yeah, headache.
Now, about the CTCs:
I have no problems with "Haruhi is the one who granted herself powers." My problem was specifically with the "Haruhi tells herself what she's going to decide to do in the future", which runs into nasty free will issues. Memory-erasing is, to me, not a problem, nor is the "Mikuru(big) was forced to hide the fact that she was working with older-Haruhi all along to maintain the consistency of the timeline, so much of her interaction with younger-Haruhi is a charade". Yes, it kinda sucks, but it turns out well enough in the end and all parties understand what was at stake. Haruhi basically made the right choice here; if she made the wrong choice she would discover that there was nothing behind Mikuru(big)'s mask, and that was just the person she was dealing with, which would be a far more tragic outcome. (If I understand your logic correctly.)
(Brian should probably whack me if I'm wrong about this being basically fine.)
A completely different aspect you're not highlighting of Haruhi's choice to be the source of her own powers: from her perspective she's choosing between two different worlds: one in which her powers are a result of her own powers, and are thus fully understood (and known to be basically safe), and one in which (if she doesn't ever go back and grant the powers to herself) some other unknown factor did, for whatever reason, which would mean there was a definite mystery to explore, but there might be a nasty and unexpected surprise waiting in that world.
Haruhi might not realize this until after the fact, if at all, but it struck me as an interesting tradeoff.
Another way to convey Haruhi's decision to take the slow path without giving it away might be for older-Haruhi to start talking excitedly about the kinds of things she's going to see (with implication that they were observed in such detail via the slow path)... younger-Haruhi might join in the excitement without realizing the implication... and then older-Haruhi cuts herself off as she realizes she's about to give too much away, deflecting the conversation into a different subject. Not at all sure how workable that is, but just to throw another idea out.
Note: would like to nuance what I said about "Kyon is Nagaru Tanigawa". To me it didn't add anything, didn't really take much away either. To me personally it feels like a cliche, which now that I think about it I've seen in some Harry Potter fic as well, (of the "JK Rowling is actually a bored Squib with a typewriter" variety -- don't remember how that worked exactly given the Statute of Secrecy), and probably it pops up in other fanfiction as well where the main crux of the original story is that stuff is happening which could plausibly happen out of sight of the real world.
In terms of canonical works, I think Diana Wynne Jones did something basically-similar in one of the Chrestomanci books which... kinda... sorta worked? I dunno, probably I'm unconsciously biased against reality and fantasy mixing in this fashion.
So it's just a personal eye roll to see it again; you could keep it in if you're inclined, since it doesn't diminish my opinion of the actual story.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on December 20, 2011, 12:29:20 PM
some fic I can't remember (where he went to an alternate universe to publish it)
That would be The Death of Haruhi Suzumiya (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3413734/1/) by Turbanator.
Emph, perhaps.
Now that I recall, that was just generally an odd little fic. The 'Kyon wrote "Melancholy" and went to an alternate universe to publish it' ends up being a footnote that fits in with the overall insanity.
I can see how it would feel a bit cliche, yeah. At the moment, nothing quite jumps out at me as a clearly superior note to end on, but it would be nice not to resort to something everyone's seen before. I'll have to give that some thought, too. Really the only thing I can think of that would split the difference is, say, Kyon knows Tanigawa as a struggling writer and thinks they could give him the idea. That may be no better, though.
As for Death, that was a bit, uh, "different," wasn't it? I'll give credit for being exactly what it said on the tin, though.
I reviewed it on TVTropes. Took a very whiskey-tango-foxtrot turn near the end.
Yeah, if I recall, it was giving the vibe, "Oh, he' s not really going to do it; he's not really going to kill her," and then he did, and it made no sense as a result. I could be horribly misremembering, though.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 20, 2011, 01:33:30 PM
Yeah, if I recall, it was giving the vibe, "Oh, he' s not really going to do it; he's not really going to kill her," and then he did, and it made no sense as a result. I could be horribly misremembering, though.
O_o
The only 'Kyon-kills-Haruhi' fics I know of *shudder* are
The Jealousy... and
Press Escape to Execute. Both of which are terrible, just in different ways.
Ah, meaning the author. Whoops. Like, and it's been a long time since I read this one, I felt at first the author just had an attention-grabbing title that he wouldn't really follow through with, and that was kinda backed up throughout until, well, yeah. Like I said, been a long time, and I may not be remembering correctly.
Kyon killing Haruhi would just be just...uh, what.
Wow. The real irony?
One of those other two fics is by the same author. o_o
Edit: Man, was beaten to the punch and then some on IDing the fic. :p
So I was doing my second passes on 9 and 10, attempting to fix in particular, the CTC problem Arakawa mentioned:
It occurs to me that older Haruhi gives a good deal of advice to Haruhi, and even just affirming her presence and influence on the oldest Asahina is a transfer of information. Should I stop just at older Haruhi's existence being affirmed, with all other details about her outlook and advice being cagey hints at best that don't really imply any firm action? Since Arakawa's comments were confined largely to older Haruhi telling point-blank how she lived her life, it may be the other parts are sufficiently vague to avoid causality issues, but even so, I wanted to look at the problem.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 03:59:24 PM
So I was doing my second passes on 9 and 10, attempting to fix in particular, the CTC problem Arakawa mentioned:
Some thoughts (which, as always, you should freely ignore if they don't help (aside: you can totally tell me to STFU, if you like; I don't want to be pushy):
Not surprised to see my chapter three/four guess on older!Haruhi was correct; does explain why you didn't respond to that joke. ;)
Anyway. This is still coming from a basis of weak understanding, but let me throw out this idea:
Haruhi getting any kind of 'help' from a future version of her undermines her already shaky/limited character growth. If you're throwing out the 'compromise ideals' ending and going with this anyway, I think the strongest way to do it is to have Haruhi grow/reach her own conclusions, and not have older!Haruhi reveal anything. Younger!Haruhi can then ask older!Haruhi and receive a validating confirmation, instead of less uplifting alternatives.
(Admittedly, I still think the 'willing to set aside powers long enough to legitimately earn the trust/respect of her Brigade after her screwups' ending would salvage a lot from my complaints -- but that's just me and my biased viewpoint. Then the future reveal would be a confirmation she's chosen to do the right thing ... after she's made the decisions, instead of giving her an easy way out. Especially moving if she doesn't know for certain that she gets her powers back until she realizes it's her future self.)
Eh, if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, there's a slight misconception here:
The old woman in the red yukata from chapter three is an "oldest" Asahina, and the role she plays is to encourage Haruhi to go back in time to the moment Haruhi gained her powers. This is the ultimate paradox, for Haruhi realizes the only way to ensure things turn out the same way is to close the loop by granting powers to her younger self. This she does, after some doubt and contemplation--in particular, Kyon absolutely rejects the idea of opening the door for an alternative past and future, and the younger Haruhi points out that making such changes arbitrarily ("with a snap of two fingers") is meaningless. Based on that, Haruhi comes to terms with what she's done and make things better by working at them, not by using powers.
The older Haruhi mentioned looks about 25 and yet is oldest Asahina's friend, and hence, there are several things that come up when our Haruhi meets her older self. Why, at no point in the future, did Haruhi not tell Asahina what would happen? How is Haruhi going to live her life? The explicit text in these drafts was that Haruhi would continue living past her natural lifespan and thought it would be unfair to leave Asahina all alone in the future, away from the rest of the brigade. Arakawa objected at minimum to the idea of older Haruhi saying point-blank that she would "take the slow path" and not just skip around time and space arbitrarily.
Taking that logic, I thought everything older Haruhi said in that scene could be problematic.
Whew. That's a mouthful. It may be more than you wanted to know at this point, and if so I apologize. That's really the minimum I can come up with to be at least somewhat clear.
Regarding the other mechanics of the ending:
So, regardless of whether the Entity was erased before or merely imprisoned as I have in the published version now, my plan was for Haruhi to bring them back or release them in the epilogue. With Haruhi keeping her powers, she can do this herself. If instead she gave up those powers, it would fall on someone else (again, future Haruhi) to do it for her. Not revealing who future Haruhi is until the deed is done could work. As it is, though, I think I prefer Haruhi keeping her powers continuously, as it makes the message more, "I can be who I am, and I know I won't change the world because I'm content with the way it is" versus, if she shut them away, "I'm willing to learn how to be in this interesting world without the ability to change it" sort of thing. To me, the first is more final, while the latter relies on more growth that we won't see because, well, the story's ending.
Admittedly, the difference between those is pretty fine.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 04:51:45 PM
Eh, if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, there's a slight misconception here:
Okay. That clears up. It was the depressing alternative to my first guess. :|
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 04:51:45 PMThe old woman in the red yukata from chapter three is an "oldest" Asahina, and the role she plays is to encourage Haruhi to go back in time to the moment Haruhi gained her powers. This is the ultimate paradox, for Haruhi realizes the only way to ensure things turn out the same way is to close the loop by granting powers to her younger self. This she does, after some doubt and contemplation--in particular, Kyon absolutely rejects the idea of opening the door for an alternative past and future, and the younger Haruhi points out that making such changes arbitrarily ("with a snap of two fingers") is meaningless. Based on that, Haruhi comes to terms with what she's done and make things better by working at them, not by using powers.
Oh.
I'm not sure how Kyon has bearing on this? I don't understand why Haruhi chooses to keep and then not use her powers, either, and ... eh....
Anyway. She keeps them and doesn't use them? Then why keep them? In this vein:
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 04:51:45 PMThe older Haruhi mentioned looks about 25 and yet is oldest Asahina's friend, and hence, there are several things that come up when our Haruhi meets her older self. Why, at no point in the future, did Haruhi not tell Asahina what would happen? How is Haruhi going to live her life? The explicit text in these drafts was that Haruhi would continue living past her natural lifespan and thought it would be unfair to leave Asahina all alone in the future, away from the rest of the brigade. Arakawa objected at minimum to the idea of older Haruhi saying point-blank that she would "take the slow path" and not just skip around time and space arbitrarily.
Taking that logic, I thought everything older Haruhi said in that scene could be problematic.
Y...es.
I still think that there may be a risk of spoilers undermining the value of Haruhi's decisions.
Also, not sure exactly how to word this. I'll apologize in advance if it's unclear or muddled. I'm not sure about introducing questions like this into the story? For wrapping things up, raising potentially open-ended questions which could have (if left vague) some negative interpretations may make things a bit confusing. More than needed, at least; (Example: the PMMM anime ending). Basically: Are you asking questions that need to be asked within the scope of the story, and is the pacing right for 'winding down', since the epilogue shouldn't really have major action/huge reveals?
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 04:51:45 PMWhew. That's a mouthful. It may be more than you wanted to know at this point, and if so I apologize. That's really the minimum I can come up with to be at least somewhat clear.
That made enough sense. Sorry you feel the need to try and abstract this so much. >_<
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 04:51:45 PMRegarding the other mechanics of the ending:
So, regardless of whether the Entity was erased before or merely imprisoned as I have in the published version now, my plan was for Haruhi to bring them back or release them in the epilogue. With Haruhi keeping her powers, she can do this herself. If instead she gave up those powers, it would fall on someone else (again, future Haruhi) to do it for her. Not revealing who future Haruhi is until the deed is done could work. As it is, though, I think I prefer Haruhi keeping her powers continuously, as it makes the message more, "I can be who I am, and I know I won't change the world because I'm content with the way it is" versus, if she shut them away, "I'm willing to learn how to be in this interesting world without the ability to change it" sort of thing. To me, the first is more final, while the latter relies on more growth that we won't see because, well, the story's ending.
Admittedly, the difference between those is pretty fine.
Alright. Not trying to harp on that same point, and more of (at this point) an observation on storytelling in general, which may not apply here anymore:
In the same way as spoilers to herself, Haruhi allowing herself a retcon undermines the meaning of her decision. Here, it's to try and ... mmm ... remove some stigma from Haruhi on making such a permanent decision. Having her undo it later is, as I understand things, very jarring when she won't do the same for Rooter. I'm guessing there may be implications there you're trying to shy away from?
But you also kind of then directly walk into them with the IDSE (some could argue an entire species)?
That ties in directly with the 'she's locked into keeping her powers because, well, who else will be able to eventually free the IDSE?' angle.... That aspect feels a bit rough, somehow. Maybe it's just because this is an area that discomfits me -- the 'permanent destruction' (even with the 'retcon' proviso). Hanging on a justification to keep her powers just so she can 'undo' anything she does 'wrong'.... That's not an option anyway else has, so ... also seems to be going against her
'deal with things without using your powers' angle....
It still seems to me that the best way to handle it is better initial handling of Asakura/the IDSE (which, also, makes me wonder at their 'transcend time' ability; maybe they saw it was going to be temporary, and felt obligated to put themselves through it for the stability of the timestream?)
Regarding powers:
QuoteI'm not sure how Kyon has bearing on this? I don't understand why Haruhi chooses to keep and then not use her powers, either, and ... eh....
Anyway. She keeps them and doesn't use them? Then why keep them? In this vein:
Haruhi knows she's not qualified to make the decision she makes on her own, so she brings him along with the explicit purpose of wanting his opinion before making a choice of such magnitude.
As for powers, why not keep them? They're still amazing to have when one can use them in a non-damaging way. To me, there's an appeal in saying Haruhi can have fun with these powers without needing them to justify her life.
It may be more correct to say that Haruhi won't use them to alter the human condition or the makeup of the universe. Granted, you can make an argument that using her powers
at all, for any reason, changes the universe. But then everything we do changes the universe. Not saying that justifies anything she could theoretically do, but I don't see the harm in her zipping across galaxies to visit new life and new civilizations, for instance.
And again, I felt Haruhi stripping herself to be frankly risky and dangerous in the face of unknown threats. The middle ground, an inherent limitation but not total stripping of power, might work in that stead, but there are aspects of that I dislike. Such a choice feels like it would lack impact. Knowing she's unsafe, Haruhi makes herself safe. She uses powers to fix herself. I don't know about that.
Regarding the Entity, big questions:
QuoteIn the same way as spoilers to herself, Haruhi allowing herself a retcon undermines the meaning of her decision. Here, it's to try and ... mmm ... remove some stigma from Haruhi on making such a permanent decision. Having her undo it later is, as I understand things, very jarring when she won't do the same for Rooter. I'm guessing there may be implications there you're trying to shy away from?
But you also kind of then directly walk into them with the IDSE (some could argue an entire species)?
That ties in directly with the 'she's locked into keeping her powers because, well, who else will be able to eventually free the IDSE?' angle.... That aspect feels a bit rough, somehow. Maybe it's just because this is an area that discomfits me -- the 'permanent destruction' (even with the 'retcon' proviso). Hanging on a justification to keep her powers just so she can 'undo' anything she does 'wrong'.... That's not an option anyway else has, so ... also seems to be going against her
'deal with things without using your powers' angle....
It still seems to me that the best way to handle it is better initial handling of Asakura/the IDSE (which, also, makes me wonder at their 'transcend time' ability; maybe they saw it was going to be temporary, and felt obligated to put themselves through it for the stability of the timestream?)
Right, so this is one of the reasons why I changed to having Haruhi imprison the Entity rather than outright erase them. Unerasing the Entity is more similar to reviving the dead than opening a cage. At the risk of an inapt analogy, it's like a prime directive thing: if you're Haruhi and your powers aren't already involved in something "big," you don't use them if you can help it. Haruhi already used her powers to cage the Entity. Letting them go is her prerogative.
One of the things in the draft is older Haruhi telling our Haruhi not to worry about "big" questions because she has time to consider them and make an educated judgment about what the right thing to do is. I know there are lots of these questions: Rooter is dead, after all. Does she leave him dead even though that resulted directly from something involving her? If so, why not keep anyone from dying? If not, then you let everyone perish with time, even when death is the result of evil, when it's unfair. Or maybe there's a middle ground, who knows. It's not a question I think anyone would want Haruhi to answer quickly or without due reflection and consideration and thought. Maybe that's what she ends up spending the rest of her life doing--trying to puzzle out what's right and what's not right to do with her powers.
Anyway, in the draft, Haruhi doesn't directly acknowledge what those questions are, which is something I'd earmarked for revision. Maybe that's too heavy to get into for an epilogue, but I did think leaving all that unsaid was leaving the door open for serious fridge logic.
As far as whether this reveal of older Haruhi is needed at all, that's...well, I could excise it, but I would want to excise a lot of hints in the process. The hat is the thing. In chapter...oy, six? In chapter six, Asahina (big) in the future is at first not surprised to see Haruhi; she asks Haruhi if the latter is feeling nostalgic. This is one of the indications that Asahina is friends with Haruhi even in the future. Now, that work in itself is not sufficient justification for the plot point, but to me, the idea of the older Haruhi still a friend to Asahina and still around in the future was meant to be a moment of encouragement, a validation of Haruhi's choice to tell her that it is indeed all going to turn out well.
On the whole, though, I'm pretty comfortable with what's there. In the end, Haruhi should feel energized and encouraged and ready to face the world's challenges, the challenge of opening people's minds to the possibilities of the universe, just without using powers to do it. Ultimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into
even more boxes). Naturally, I want to avoid any implication of taking away Haruhi's freedom to choose her destiny or anything like that. At this point, I may go with an approach where contact between Haruhi and
that person is minimal, yet Haruhi can walk away with the right messages by inference all the same.
Either way, I'm hoping to clear this off my desk rather soon and bring some
Ranma stuff here in short order, maybe? Eh, we'll see.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 07:22:45 PMRegarding powers:
As for powers, why not keep them? They're still amazing to have when one can use them in a non-damaging way. To me, there's an appeal in saying Haruhi can have fun with these powers without needing them to justify her life.
It may be more correct to say that Haruhi won't use them to alter the human condition or the makeup of the universe. Granted, you can make an argument that using her powers at all, for any reason, changes the universe. But then everything we do changes the universe. Not saying that justifies anything she could theoretically do, but I don't see the harm in her zipping across galaxies to visit new life and new civilizations, for instance.
And again, I felt Haruhi stripping herself to be frankly risky and dangerous in the face of unknown threats. The middle ground, an inherent limitation but not total stripping of power, might work in that stead, but there are aspects of that I dislike. Such a choice feels like it would lack impact. Knowing she's unsafe, Haruhi makes herself safe. She uses powers to fix herself. I don't know about that.
I see.
I wouldn't go so far as to say 'any use of powers is inflicting a negative change.' But in regards to that last bit, I can't personally see how that last clause is any worse (or, honestly even different) from: 'She has her powers because she gave herself her powers.' Maybe it's just me. >_>;;
I have to admit -- as big as this seemed in scope from the begining that reveal is kinda.... I dunno how else to say it? Makes Haruhi's powers feel somehow kind of bratty themselves, if that makes any sense? 'Powers exist because they want to,' and 'Haruhi has to keep her powers to undo the things she's done'. Even 'to protect herself' is kind of sketchy as an excuse, since she could just permanently turn them into some auto state and give up her conscious control -- just have her powers work to protect her and the brigade in the background. (I think this is exactly the thing that you don't like, though it seems on the same level as the other ideas above, IMO.)
The main reason I even point this is out ... well, veering towards the K:BDH interpetation -- Haruhi wanting to keep her powers and have fun with them absolutely rings true. Wouldn't have used that interpetation if I didn't think it wasn't on some level entirely plausible. Wanting to keep them even after everything that's happened in your fic? That can work, too.
But from a character growth angle, instead of using the time travel elements at all, why can't you ignore the question of where her power came from &cetera -- and just have her have an earnest heart-to-heart with Kyon about what she should do with them?
And he can honestly tell her that he thinks if she listens to her friends, and is careful, things will work out. It lets you get that same 'future spoiler' effect, since Kyon has explicit memories that suggest that's exactly right (future Haruhi in college) -- and gives you a nice callback to the book. How much of it he tells her, or if it's only made clear to the reader.... Just a thought.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 07:22:45 PMRegarding the Entity, big questions:
Right, so this is one of the reasons why I changed to having Haruhi imprison the Entity rather than outright erase them. Unerasing the Entity is more similar to reviving the dead than opening a cage. At the risk of an inapt analogy, it's like a prime directive thing: if you're Haruhi and your powers aren't already involved in something "big," you don't use them if you can help it. Haruhi already used her powers to cage the Entity. Letting them go is her prerogative.
One of the things in the draft is older Haruhi telling our Haruhi not to worry about "big" questions because she has time to consider them and make an educated judgment about what the right thing to do is. I know there are lots of these questions: Rooter is dead, after all. Does she leave him dead even though that resulted directly from something involving her? If so, why not keep anyone from dying? If not, then you let everyone perish with time, even when death is the result of evil, when it's unfair. Or maybe there's a middle ground, who knows. It's not a question I think anyone would want Haruhi to answer quickly or without due reflection and consideration and thought. Maybe that's what she ends up spending the rest of her life doing--trying to puzzle out what's right and what's not right to do with her powers.
It doesn't feel consistent to me that Haruhi misses such basic lessons in the chapters I read -- and suddenly manages to get this much bigger one later on. I get that you're trying to avoid it, but it doesn't also feel true to Haruhi's character. To quote a renowned film director of the Nishinomiya area:
"I hate those movies where the hero dies at the end! So nothing like that in ours." (Somewhat paraphrased -- but how does she handle the Story of Rooter in this context?)
And the issues can be sidestepped with all kinds of temporal cheating; I believe Haruhi would be able to make this exception to herself, at the very least. And she could also find a way to make it work with Kyon's (evident) insistence that time not be tampered with unduly, re: the Chrono Trigger plan. It may feel like it undermines other points, but if played right, and in the 'taking responsibility' angle, also might tie into the 'and will also release the IDSE at some point' ending.
Part of it, on reflection, may be that you needed Haruhi to witness the death of a character in order to motivate her to positive change -- even after the Mori conversation. Somehow, this feels like it's an awful lot to have her reach that turning point; maybe I'm just searching for a way to mitigate that effect.
That could easily be entirely on me. >_<
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 07:22:45 PMAs far as whether this reveal of older Haruhi is needed at all, that's...well, I could excise it, but I would want to excise a lot of hints in the process. The hat is the thing. In chapter...oy, six? In chapter six, Asahina (big) in the future is at first not surprised to see Haruhi; she asks Haruhi if the latter is feeling nostalgic. This is one of the indications that Asahina is friends with Haruhi even in the future. Now, that work in itself is not sufficient justification for the plot point, but to me, the idea of the older Haruhi still a friend to Asahina and still around in the future was meant to be a moment of encouragement, a validation of Haruhi's choice to tell her that it is indeed all going to turn out well.
In this case, this runs the risk of being too subtle; is there a good call-back to this in chapter nine?
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 07:22:45 PMOn the whole, though, I'm pretty comfortable with what's there. In the end, Haruhi should feel energized and encouraged and ready to face the world's challenges, the challenge of opening people's minds to the possibilities of the universe, just without using powers to do it. Ultimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into even more boxes). Naturally, I want to avoid any implication of taking away Haruhi's freedom to choose her destiny or anything like that. At this point, I may go with an approach where contact between Haruhi and that person is minimal, yet Haruhi can walk away with the right messages by inference all the same.
Well -- that's the critical thing; that it works for you. Reading between the lines -- other than presentation, we actually seem to be aligned in a lot of ideals; as mentioned, your goals for Haruhi's character growth are remarkably in-line with K:BDH -- especially in the line of how she should use her powers. So I had some positive takeaway here; I hope my commentary was in any way helpful and not just pointless whining.
Quote from: Muphrid on December 27, 2011, 07:22:45 PMEither way, I'm hoping to clear this off my desk rather soon and bring some Ranma stuff here in short order, maybe? Eh, we'll see.
Well, sure-- I wouldn't mind that. I just hope my feedback hasn't soured you on writing Haruhi stuff. :\
Anyway; thank you for the thought-provoking discussion, and putting up with my ill-informed approach to things.
Edit: Oh, man, fridged again:
Unfortunate Implications, this time: What does Mikuru's 'Haven't seen you in so long!'/hug for Kyon mean if she's still friends with Haruhi in the future?
Regarding the choice of keeping vs. rejecting omnipotence, I personally think Haruhi has an obligation to keep her powers (not just putting them on some kind of irreversible
auto mode),
provided that she can trust herself not to do things she'll later regret and can't reverse without violating even more ethical taboos. (Doing something like erasing the Entity would in fact prove that she can't trust herself, and she'd instead have an obligation to relinquish her powers.)
It's a fairly simple ethical calculation: assuming that you can trust yourself to decide correctly in the future, why would you arbitrarily deprive yourself of options? (If you can't trust yourself, that's a different story, of course.)
QuoteUltimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into even more boxes).
Right, but if I read the story correctly they're trying to make the word aware of the existence of aliens, time-travelers, and espers, without cheating? Publishing a fictionalized version of their experiences is... I still don't get how that accomplishes that. EDIT: I mean, I'm just still generally confused at how the reader was intended to understand it.
Anyhow, it's been a very interesting ride. Thank you for your work... I'm sorry again that for the last couple of chapters some unrelated RL nonsense broke me out of my C&Cing mood. (Hopefully I'll get back into it in time...) Having the ending clear, however, has put the story on a much more solid footing.
Quote from: Brian on December 27, 2011, 07:55:28 PMEdit: Oh, man, fridged again:
Unfortunate Implications, this time: What does Mikuru's 'Haven't seen you in so long!'/hug for Kyon mean if she's still friends with Haruhi in the future?
[spoiler]
I assumed it was referring to current time Kyon, who is probably fairly different than any future Kyon. Going back to visit him is different to her than visiting a future Kyon? Just my take.
Man, today is fridgey. An answer to my own fridge logic on Taniguchi. You may already have far better plans than this, but:
Going back to the themes you want to explore (I think), something that connects 'Haruhi needs her powers to protect her friends' angle to both the 'but she has to use her powers responsibly' subject and Taniguchi's weird motivations for picking a fight with Haruhi. As a bonus, it can even make Haruhi more sympathetic and still tie to Mori's speech.
What if instead of picking a fight with Haruhi, he just wants to grouse/vent at her, but it's Kyon who escalates things? Taniguchi getting zapped for (almost) throwing a punch at Kyon would then fit, and also help justify Kyon's silence in the following scenes, since he's now also partially responsible. Plus, it puts an early, clear indication that yes, she really does care/desire to protect her friends.
WRT Taniguchi's frustrations, there's also an easy window for him to actually call back to his last dunking snd complain about Kyon not istening last time, or maybe just that 'Haruhi didn't have to listen to it this time, and she sure as hell should this time!' or the like?
Just something that occured to me on the drive home; hope that at least sparks off an idea for you.
Edit: Bah, softkeys.
I think I'm just going to go with one big spoiler box now.
QuoteI wouldn't go so far as to say 'any use of powers is inflicting a negative change.' But in regards to that last bit, I can't personally see how that last clause is any worse (or, honestly even different) from: 'She has her powers because she gave herself her powers.' Maybe it's just me. >_>;;
I have to admit -- as big as this seemed in scope from the begining that reveal is kinda.... I dunno how else to say it? Makes Haruhi's powers feel somehow kind of bratty themselves, if that makes any sense? 'Powers exist because they want to,' and 'Haruhi has to keep her powers to undo the things she's done'. Even 'to protect herself' is kind of sketchy as an excuse, since she could just permanently turn them into some auto state and give up her conscious control -- just have her powers work to protect her and the brigade in the background. (I think this is exactly the thing that you don't like, though it seems on the same level as the other ideas above, IMO.)
The main reason I even point this is out ... well, veering towards the K:BDH interpetation -- Haruhi wanting to keep her powers and have fun with them absolutely rings true. Wouldn't have used that interpetation if I didn't think it wasn't on some level entirely plausible. Wanting to keep them even after everything that's happened in your fic? That can work, too.
But from a character growth angle, instead of using the time travel elements at all, why can't you ignore the question of where her power came from &cetera -- and just have her have an earnest heart-to-heart with Kyon about what she should do with them?
And he can honestly tell her that he thinks if she listens to her friends, and is careful, things will work out. It lets you get that same 'future spoiler' effect, since Kyon has explicit memories that suggest that's exactly right (future Haruhi in college) -- and gives you a nice callback to the book. How much of it he tells her, or if it's only made clear to the reader.... Just a thought.
So I'll be honest here: when I conceived of this story, really before I had any other ideas about what it was or what it was about, I had the idea for what's now the concluding scene of 9: Haruhi in the past, with Kyon at her side as the voice of reason, facing her younger self and realizing, to her surprise, that in growing up from that middle school girl, she forgot something. She got wound up in finding interesting things and people so much that she forgot it was about the journey, so to speak. I clung to that scene even after the massive outline restructuring as a result of (principally) your criticism of chapter four. If I had to say the story is about one thing, it's that scene. The dressing is a bit different--there's a strong angle about fixing the brigade's regrets through powers and rejecting that notion, too--but the core is the same.
I expect this is strange sort of "system". To borrow from my physics background, you could call it "boundary condition" writing, where the story "solution" is constructed to match the scenes that are already known. If I had to assess the way that thought process works, it lets me work toward well-defined, known powerful moments, but sometimes the logic and reasoning that bridges the gaps can be...lacking. That's my guess, anyway.
The time travel elements are difficult to extricate aside from that, though. In 9 and 10, Asahina (bigger) reveals herself, and she explains that since realizing the intrinsic horror of meddling in past people's lives (which happened in 7 with Asahina (big) ), she's dedicated her life to trying to undo that damage and give Haruhi in particular the ability to make a meaningful choice again. While I like this element because it suggests a stronger bond between Haruhi and Asahina in the future (which
is hinted at, even if Haruhi existing in the future isn't
per se), I do see how the time travel stuff adds a bit of complexity. I was thinking just that when writing this--that eight chapters of the story aren't really concerned with any of that, but nine
is and could feel weird because of that.
I don't mean to dismiss the notion of a simpler resolution (Haruhi and Kyon talking and working things out) out of hand, but there would be some systematic changes involved.
Makes me think maybe writing the whole thing at once would be better, so such changes wouldn't have to fight the inertia of what's come before.
QuoteIt doesn't feel consistent to me that Haruhi misses such basic lessons in the chapters I read -- and suddenly manages to get this much bigger one later on. I get that you're trying to avoid it, but it doesn't also feel true to Haruhi's character. To quote a renowned film director of the Nishinomiya area:
"I hate those movies where the hero dies at the end! So nothing like that in ours." (Somewhat paraphrased -- but how does she handle the Story of Rooter in this context?)
And the issues can be sidestepped with all kinds of temporal cheating; I believe Haruhi would be able to make this exception to herself, at the very least. And she could also find a way to make it work with Kyon's (evident) insistence that time not be tampered with unduly, re: the Chrono Trigger plan. It may feel like it undermines other points, but if played right, and in the 'taking responsibility' angle, also might tie into the 'and will also release the IDSE at some point' ending.
Part of it, on reflection, may be that you needed Haruhi to witness the death of a character in order to motivate her to positive change -- even after the Mori conversation. Somehow, this feels like it's an awful lot to have her reach that turning point; maybe I'm just searching for a way to mitigate that effect.
Honestly, yeah, an exception for stuff Haruhi's already involved in with powers was something I initially wanted to do. At least, before trying to side-step the issue entirely.
Quote
Right, but if I read the story correctly they're trying to make the word aware of the existence of aliens, time-travelers, and espers, without cheating? Publishing a fictionalized version of their experiences is... I still don't get how that accomplishes that. EDIT: I mean, I'm just still generally confused at how the reader was intended to understand it.
I saw it as a slow, deliberate way to get the general populace comfortable with the idea of aliens, time-travelers, and espers among them. Admittedly, that can't possibly get across in what's written. Is that something that could work if there were more text there to explain the reasoning (like what I just said)? Because on thinking about that, I can't imagine any other action that would do that, and ending with no action (just a resolution of what goal to shoot for) might seem anticlimactic. I think.
Regarding Taniguchi:
QuoteGoing back to the themes you want to explore (I think), something that connects 'Haruhi needs her powers to protect her friends' angle to both the 'but she has to use her powers responsibly' subject and Taniguchi's weird motivations for picking a fight with Haruhi. As a bonus, it can even make Haruhi more sympathetic and still tie to Mori's speech.
What if instead of picking a fight with Haruhi, he just wants to grouse/vent at her, but it's Kyon who escalates things? Taniguchi getting zapped for (almost) throwing a punch at Kyon would then fit, and also help justify Kyon's silence in the following scenes, since he's now also partially responsible. Plus, it puts an early, clear indication that yes, she really does care/desire to protect her friends.
WRT Taniguchi's frustrations, there's also an easy window for him to actually call back to his last dunking snd complain about Kyon not istening last time, or maybe just that 'Haruhi didn't have to listen to it this time, and she sure as hell should this time!' or the like?
I like this quite a bit, and Kyon coming to Haruhi's defense strongly makes a lot of sense.
Finally,
Quote
Well, sure-- I wouldn't mind that. I just hope my feedback hasn't soured you on writing Haruhi stuff. :\
I have a couple ideas still, but I always planned to go back to
Ranma after finishing
Before and After and writing this piece. After
Identity, my ideas pile is only about four or five stories deep, and two of those are
Haruhi. It's just that
Identity could take three or four years of working on it non-stop to finish...
But anyway, I am very thankful for all the help and ideas and discussion sparked here. Were it not for that, this story would be very different and much worse for it. Thank you all again.
Okay, I've cut down on the epilogue somewhat, making changes about the CTC problem and the lack of impact the Kyon as Tanigawa thing had. Nine is only minimally changed, so if the alterations to the epilogue work, these should be pretty close to the final versions. Thanks again, all.
Using a callback to the end of Melancholy resonates a lot better in my opinion. In general, with a bit less revelation and a few more questions kept open the epilogue feels to me a lot more like an epilogue.
QuoteWe were in no hurry to reveal those truths, for the world would be just as spectacular all the same, and though we'd planned to see a movie later that day, we kept chatting at the café until well after dark.
Hmm... maybe "we just kept chatting"?
Done and done.
Complete pdf and an archive of html versions are in the main post now.