Another fic already, I'm as shocked as anyone else. The basic premise here is that through a series of conversations between the Brigade members and Sakanaka, Haruhi gets the idea to look into the premise of lucid dreaming. First chapter is done (and attached), second chapter will be along in a bit but I probably won't publish on ff.net until it's done.
C&C as always is welcomed.
I think your download is busted. I'm getting an index.php when I try and download with a size of -1 bytes.
Not sure what the issue with the attachment is; I'll have to reupload it once I get home.
Odd. I got the attachment successfully. (I notice you've taken it down for the moment.)
Is the version I have still valid for C&C purposes, or are you going to change things in the reupload?
No, nothing should be changed - it's the same file. Brian's gotten it reattached for me at this point in any case. (Thanks!)
Abusing moderator powers for questionable good, go. >.>
Should have asked if it was okay to edit the post.... I tested the attachment and it's working fine for me, but Hal noted that it could be a browser issue with the forum.
Dune: You can probably get Hal to DCC it to you (or I can). But using another browser might also fix it.
Edit: Should probably follow up on this; really liked the chapter, Hal, found it very inspirational. :)
I got the file and it seems valid; please find below my thoughts based on that version. The standard disclaimers apply (I'm not qualified to comment on the use of language, my interpretations of characters may not coincide with actual ones other than by accident).
The premise is interesting and has great potential. Being somebody to whom lucid dreaming comes naturally (and having conducted a lot of experiments while in that state to discover its possibilities), I am personally interested in seeing how this develops.
The beginning was a bit vague; it took me a while to put the events on the proper timeline and context; this may be addressed by the disclaimer/foreword in the final version. Specifically, I wasn't sure whether this was somehow related to 'Review' or not until the interactions made it clear.
A canon issue: The SOS Brigade is supposed to attend a formal flower viewing event on Tsuruya premises during the Golden Week (most likely on May 4, the Greenery Day), and give a theatrical presentation; this seems to conflict with the events of the fic.
A second canon issue: the SOS anniversary will be soon after the Golden Week, and Kyon is supposed to be working on getting Haruhi a proper gift, I don't know whether the hinted B plot (first Kyon then Asahina being late) is related.
When the characters first talked about a dream trip, I had some difficulties trying to figure out whether it was supposed to be a literal or figurative use of the word; most likely a problem on my side.
Kyon telling Haruhi about the closed space incident was very unexpected. Kyon knows that it wasn't a dream, and mentioning it to Haruhi can only be seen as a conscious effort to break the masquerade; however, we aren't given any reason for why Kyon would want to do that.
Overall, Haruhi comes through as surprisingly aggressive for the given situation. I tried to find a reason for that but couldn't.
That's all I could find on one reading; other than (IMHO) starting a bit abruptly, it flows well.
Should probably include that it's set after book 8, in that case. 9-11 don't really sit well with me, so likely very little of what I do is going to include that in the continuity. I do need to fix the time when this is occurring a little more solidly, though.
QuoteEven I made some mistakes ther
there
QuoteMikuru is looking at the book with a wide eyes now
Drop the a.
Okay, I went way overboard with my prose-stylistic suggestions. As always, glean what helps, ignore what doesn't, and don't stub a toe on the carborundum! I went through it inline (see attachment).
My only beef with the actual story is this:
Haruhi goes to sleep and wakes up no less than (goes to count) three times during the chapter, and it all happens off-screen during scene transitions. Given that this is first-person narration, and she's evidently preoccupied with the notion of dreaming (eagerness to read the book / suddenly redirecting the topic from a "dream trip" to literal dreaming / eventual interest in shared dreams specifically), it's effectively like she doesn't bother to notice whether or not she had dreams each time. This would be perfectly fine in any other fic, but the more she reads about the topic of lucid dreaming and the more enthusiasm she develops, the more ridiculous it gets that there's practically no mention of how she slept!
(sample mention of how she slept - very rough, just to give you an idea of the sort of information I'd kept expecting and never getting:
Quote from: possible initial chapter dreaming mentionI wake up the next day, and I don't even think to remember whether I had any dreams last night until I'm already brushing my teeth in front of the mirror. Nope, I was out like a log after all that late-night studying.
That kind of sucks; one website had these wild-eyed claims that even reading about the possibility of lucid dreaming can trigger some people to have a lucid dream the following night, and frankly it's making me a bit suspicious. It sounds too good to be true, and I don't like that. Well, I guess I'll wait to read that book before I form a definite opinion on the matter.
Arriving at school {... etc ...}
As a subtle point, the approach I'd prefer is to only explicitly mention Haruhi waking up, and avoid explicitly mentioning when she goes to bed.
It's specifically a problem with the first person narration. Given the fact that Haruhi's focused on exploring her dreams, it ends up feeling strangely like actual dreaming is absent from her psyche and she just pretends that she has dreams.
Slightly less vehement beef is that you share almost precisely nothing about what Haruhi's found out on the topic of lucid dreaming. This seems to mask the prior problem somewhat, but only for people who aren't already familiar with the notion! (And people who clicked on the fic because they are curious but unfamiliar about lucid dreaming may be disappointed that there hasn't been any attempt to explain lucid dreaming so far.)
There are a number of ways to handle this problem, depending on your intentions for the fic, so I'm not sure what to suggest at this stage.
Anyhow, the lack of clear information on Haruhi's sleep/wakeup made me half-expect that you were setting up for some kind of mindscrew (enabled by the use of present tense) where one of the scenes happens in a dream and Haruhi almost-but-not-quite notices the fact, then wakes up the next morning having forgotten all about it... that would, to me, probably be the only justification for leaving out this portion of events. And even that could still work if we only mention how Haruhi wakes up.
As always, I'm probably overstating my vehemence. The chapter already works great as a character piece, if I make the effort to suppress what I know about lucid dreaming and treat it as mostly an Informed MacGuffin to drive character interaction rather than as the presumable major setpiece of the fic. That might well be your intent throughout the rest of the fic, although in that case I'd have to say it is going to leave me a bit disappointed.
Anyhow, thanks for brightening my day with this! The premise
is making my head explode with possibilities as to what might happen next.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 15, 2011, 02:49:26 PM
When the characters first talked about a dream trip, I had some difficulties trying to figure out whether it was supposed to be a literal or figurative use of the word; most likely a problem on my side.
I caught that. Kyon uses the notion of a "dream trip" figuratively, but Haruhi (since she keeps thinking about dreaming) seizes on the opportunity to change the subject to literal "dream trips".
So Kyon uses it figuratively and Haruhi twists the meaning into a literal one, so to speak. I think it's one of the particularly clever moments in the chapter, and it works well to establish how interested Haruhi really is in the subject :-)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 15, 2011, 05:19:39 PM
Haruhi goes to sleep and wakes up no less than (goes to count) three times during the chapter, and it all happens off-screen during scene transitions. Given that this is first-person narration, and she's evidently preoccupied with the notion of dreaming (eagerness to read the book / suddenly redirecting the topic from a "dream trip" to literal dreaming / eventual interest in shared dreams specifically), it's effectively like she doesn't bother to notice whether or not she had dreams each time. This would be perfectly fine in any other fic, but the more she reads about the topic of lucid dreaming and the more enthusiasm she develops, the more ridiculous it gets that there's practically no mention of how she slept!
That is a good observation; When I first saw the basic concept of lucid dreaming mentioned somewhere I found it interesting, and without being aware of any guide books or exercises spent the next night exploring my inner space in that state (and the next, and the next ... until about a week later I had to relax a bit, as apparently lucid dreaming doesn't really count as sleep, and eventually sleep deprivation symptoms appear). One would expect Haruhi to need even less of a trigger to accomplish the same, as I'm not half as excitable as she is.
In terms of that, I can best relate Haruhi to my own experience. As someone who rarely (if ever) remembers more than a passing fragment of a dream, the idea of 'exploring' your dreams is definitely appealing, but the problem is that I wouldn't even know where to begin. I haven't deeply researched lucid dreaming, but from my understanding the first step to the process is making you more aware of your dreams, including dream logging, to make you more aware of having dreamed at all. From there, you work on techniques to increase your awareness inside the dream. If you don't even remember that you have dreamed most of the time, you don't really have any footing to start from - which is basically where Haruhi is starting as well.
She's not really showing more than a passing interest in the idea until after her talk with Kyon about the Melancholy dream, either, so she doesn't really have a reason to push things before that point. She finds the idea intriguing, but not really worth the full force of her attention until then. She'll definitely be paying a lot more attention to it from this point forward, but the chapter ends before she sleeps again. I'll add a little something in, but early in the chapter it's just not something she's devoting a lot of attention to (yet).
In regards to sharing details about lucid dreaming, I'm not an expert and I don't really intend for the story to turn into an instruction manual on how it works or how to do it. It's interesting, sure, but this isn't meant to be a scientific exploration of lucid dreaming techniques - the name should be enough to get readers that are interested a direction to start looking if they want to find out more themselves. I'm also not capable of doing it myself (it'd be fun, but too much effort to be worth it for me), and I'd rather leave the details vague than get something blatantly wrong. I'm sure there'll be plenty of 'that's not even possible in a dream!' from informed readers later on (hi, sarsaparilla!) but I'll plead artistic license at that point. =P It's mainly a device to tell a broader story, and one that's barely even started.
Okay. Artistic license is perfectly fine, especially given that Haruhi is involved. ('Adding a little bit' is precisely how I'd describe the changes I'm hoping for you to make in this chapter specifically.) The only thing I would caution is that, given how actually central lucid dreaming is to your story, you should know approximately as much about it as your characters. Otherwise there's a serious risk that the fic will feel seriously unnatural (see: Hollywood hacking) to those familiar with the topic and frustratingly uninformative to those who were unfamiliar and hoping to find out about the topic over the course of the fic.
EDIT: This may be excessively harsh, but I think what you're saying is that you're trying to avoid inaccuracies by being vague about the details. But the way I see it is that your fic ends up feeling inaccurate because it's so vague; it risks completely omitting mention of important things that Haruhi would be paying attention to, even at this stage.
Regarding the risk of turning the fic into an encyclopedia entry on lucid dreaming, I'm well aware of it. That's the challenge of a fic like this: make the set piece both accurate and relevant to the story. That you're only willing to go for one out of two (relevance) is sort of disappointing.
There's not that much you need to know, even... You could probably write a fic that didn't raise any complaints with me, and gave a fairly accurate picture of things, just by incorporating the following knowledge: what a reality check is, what a false awakening is, and the basic techniques of staying lucid once you gain lucidity (and what sorts of things happen when you fail to stay lucid). As to what might happen once you are successfully lucid, I'm afraid sarsaparilla has much more extensive experience than I do ;_;
You don't have to summarize the information in this chapter, just make sure to explain what Haruhi's doing when she actually starts doing it... and again, mention the moments when she wakes up...
(If I were to add one more thing to that list, I'd suggest that Haruhi would be very impatient to get started, and thus likely to go straight to one of the more challenging methods of lucid dream induction like WILD (Wake induced lucid dreaming). I can't really see her foregoing the chance to go straight into a lucid dream in favour of methodically spending a week tediously journaling and doing reality checks until she's tried the "instant but not guaranteed to work" approach.)
I'd write a longer and politer explanation, but I'm on the go and typing from a smartphone :-(
Hmm, to reprise my traditional role and add a dissenting opinion:
I think that the plot device exists to serve the story, not the other way around.
Furthermore, I'm of the opinion (this is, admittedly, just me) that accuracy is irrelevant compared to internal consistency.
Admittedly, I always do (sometimes way too much) research on everything I write, but as Hal says, this is storytelling, not an instruction manual. The most important point is that it hold together. Anyway, it's up to Hal, but Haruhi's probably not the best vehicle to explore those minutia anyway -- maybe it can be addressed in a future chapter, since it seems Kyon's supposed to be getting into it, too?
It does seem entirely plausible to me that Haruhi might skim the literature and just get into lucid dreaming intuitively similarly to how sars described her own experience, whereas Kyon might have to work really hard at it (or just get a boost of some sort from Haruhi attempting to enter his dream); anyhow, please look on what I say as a resource and ignore what isn't useful :-|
EDIT: And I'd also like to add that I'm growing to like the notion that Haruhi has the sort of focused mind that she doesn't remember any dreams,
until she explicitly decides to pay attention to them. It's actually worth having the slightly weird (she remembers closed space dreams with blue giants, but no ordinary dreams) moment to get it across.
I've given my criticism a bit of second consideration, and I'm sorry if it was a bit too abrasive. (I guess that made me seem a bit dismissive of your primary focus, which the dreaming stuff is just a means to attain.)
As mentioned, I think incorporating just two or three concepts would suffice to make the fic seem true-to-life, without needing to explain things in needlessly gory detail. Much more than that, given your lack of personal experience with the topic, you're probably justified in wanting to avoid as research overkill.
In an effort to be more encouraging: here's what I enjoyed about the chapter as it stands.
- To repeat myself: the transition from 'dream trip' (actual waking-life trip) to the topic of dreaming in their conversation was a treat.
- As always, you do a very good Haruhi and I'm watching carefully to see what I can learn for myself <ω<. The cognitive gap between how Kyon sees Haruhi (in canon) and how Haruhi sees herself is bridged surprisingly well, without having to portray Haruhi as being excessively nice as compared to canon, or as being oblivious to her own somewhat domineering persona.
- The fact that both Yuki and Mikuru seem to be pushing Haruhi in the same direction. It might be unintentional, but it makes me very interested to see whether my guess that this is an intentional subplot is correct :-)
- Kyon wants to tell Haruhi about their earlier shared "dream", but also doesn't want to force the revelation on her. This makes for a very nice dynamic, and (taking a wild guess as to what lies ahead) this is probably the actual setup of the fic: Haruhi and Kyon communicate through their dreams and, since the risks and consequences of revealing too much information are much looser that way, they can try to reach a better mutual understanding than they would in a waking-life situation. However, to get the fic to that point, or whatever other point you want to get it to, requires you to either research or somehow gloss over a bunch of details relating to lucid dreaming, which makes me feel bad about trying to push you to make the technical aspect of things a bit more true-to-life. (But not too bad, I just wish I could do it without being discouragingly abrasive, or.. well... pushy.)
Anyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you. The only experience I'd be able to share that sars may not have had, is what it's like to be frustrated in
attempting to attain lucid dreaming. I've had a bunch of almost-but-not-quite lucid dreams, lucid dreams that ended in silly beginner mistakes, and attempts ending in downright complete failure. Got that aspect of things extensively covered :-)
I can understand the reluctance to use lucid dreaming as anything beyond a plot device if one doesn't have personal experiences; however, in my opinion that takes away most of the potential of the premise, as there are direct parallels to the philosophical underpinnings of the series. At the risk of sounding too pushy, I'd like to tell about my own experiences. If they provide any inspiration for what you want to do then that's great; if not, feel free to ignore them.
There are several levels of lucidity, starting from a situation not unlike watching a movie while awake -- if specifically asked, you can confirm that "yes, this is a dream" but it doesn't matter, as you're willing to suspend your disbelief and just watch the show as long as it's interesting. On the high end there is a state where you're in full control of all your senses and faculties while inside the dream, and the experience is profound, unlike anything else you'll ever encounter. Quite literally, you're the god(dess) of a world of your own making, but it's a paradoxical existence as you're neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and the slightest mistake may shatter the illusion.
This maximal state of lucidity is exactly like a virtual world where you can do (almost) what you want. I had had dreams of various levels of lucidity all the way from infancy, but only after learning about the phenomenon I found that particular state. That discovery is probably one of the most vivid memories of my entire life. I found myself on the lawn of the sports field of the school and realized that it was a dream. I wanted to check my senses and walked over to the building where the locker rooms were. I touched the red brick wall with my hand; it was a sunny day and I could feel the warmth stored in the wall. I moved my hand over the bricks and could feel the coarseness of the surface, every tiny ridge and groove under my fingertips; I heard the rasping sound caused by my fingers and I could even smell the faint smell of mortar. All my senses told me that it was a real brick wall, its tangible, unyielding solidity was overwhelming, and at the same time I knew with absolute certainty that it didn't exist beyond my own imagination. The feeling was transcendental.
I spent the next minutes learning how to walk through the wall. It was quite tricky until I found the proper technique to subvert the subconsciousness.
Later, I did all kinds of experiments to find out what works and what doesn't. This probably depends on the person in question, but personally I have problems with complex machines -- e.g., guns rarely work as they should and in a pinch it's easier to use telekinetic 'force' to push the attacker away. Also, no matter what I do I can't control other people, or even prove to them that they don't exist (they suffer from selective obliviousness and will explain away any clearly impossible feats that I show them). Transmutation is easier than making something just appear or disappear. Books don't hold information well, don't bother writing things down. All kinds of things, too many to mention, really. But on the whole, it's very educative.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 16, 2011, 08:59:33 AMDetailed stuff about lucid dreaming
Awesome info, this will be useful in chapters to come. Probably won't stick to the limitations you've found religiously, but some of the details will be handy in developing some of the plot points I've got planned.
In a broader response to the C&C in general at this point, my main objective in writing a story is not to explore a philosophical or psychological principle; the main thing I'm trying to do is tell a story that I think (hope) (pray) will be interesting for folks to read, showing characters they like doing things that they might not have thought about before.
If I can explore deeper concepts in the process, then great; however, the narrative is what comes first. If a more thorough examination of principles or concepts (such as lucid dreaming, in this case) will detract from (or add nothing to) the story, I'm not going to spend that much time on it. It's certainly not my intention to mangle the concept, and I'll stick to rendering it accurately as far as the narrative will allow, but when it comes down to accuracy vs. keeping the story interesting, I'll stick to the latter - possibly with an author's note in appropriate areas to verify that no, lucid dreaming doesn't actually work this way, if the divergence is great enough.
Keep in mind, too, that this is the first chapter of a story that will likely be as long as (or longer than) Under Review. Almost everything in this first chapter is simply laying groundwork for things to come; if there are things missing it may be by design, as there's a lot more of the story to tell yet - it certainly doesn't end here. When offering C&C, remember to judge it on that basis.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 16, 2011, 12:45:09 AMAnyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you.
Generally, I try not to call out specific comments, but this one I can't let pass. You spend a good deal of time in your post saying that you're trying to avoid being pushy and abrasive, Arakawa, and then in the same sentence here you do exactly that - the implication here is that I need to listen to what you had to say to do things 'realistically'. I think the fic is quite capable of standing up as a realistic story without sticking to straight scientific accuracy, especially given the presence of a completely unrealistic reality warper in it, and I rather resent the implication that it won't be unless I'm following your recommendations.
I'm not just calling this out to rail on you; by your own admission, you acknowledge that you have a tendency to come across as rude and abrasive at times. By that token, if this is an area you intend to improve, it's rather difficult to do so if you don't know what it is that's being viewed that way. Take this as my C&C of that aspect of your feedback.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 16, 2011, 12:50:36 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 16, 2011, 12:45:09 AMAnyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you.
Generally, I try not to call out specific comments, but this one I can't let pass. You spend a good deal of time in your post saying that you're trying to avoid being pushy and abrasive, Arakawa, and then in the same sentence here you do exactly that - the implication here is that I need to listen to what you had to say to do things 'realistically'.
*squints at own writing*
In that specific sentence? Nuts, I'm worse than I thought.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 16, 2011, 12:50:36 PM
I think the fic is quite capable of standing up as a realistic story without sticking to straight scientific accuracy, especially given the presence of a completely unrealistic reality warper in it, and I rather resent the implication that it won't be unless I'm following your recommendations.
I'm not just calling this out to rail on you; by your own admission, you acknowledge that you have a tendency to come across as rude and abrasive at times. By that token, if this is an area you intend to improve, it's rather difficult to do so if you don't know what it is that's being viewed that way. Take this as my C&C of that aspect of your feedback.
Okay, to clarify: I personally thought there was an issue with the chapter. Not knowing how other people see the same issue, and wanting to be a bit more specific with my feedback, I just tried to explain what sorts of things would alter my own personal response to it. Phrasing it in such absolute terms seems to have saved some grammar, but caused me to completely fail the 'coming across as respectful' issue.
(silly excuses you may not care about)
My fundamental problem seems to be that I don't particularly mind whether the feedback I receive is supportive, or condescending, or hypocritical, or indifferent -- that seems to me secondary to the question of whether or not it's making a valid point. But that's an awful basis for interacting with other people :-( -- the thing is, since I can't gauge the acceptability of what I'm writing based on my own emotional response to similar feedback, I have to assess it intellectually for these faux pas.
So, I'd like to thank you for... well, tolerating my presence while I try to work through this problem, for one thing; and pointing out that I'm still way off the mark, for another. And I want to apologize since this interaction has probably been for you a distraction from the main purpose of the fic :-|
Quote"Well, that's a bit better, then," Sakanaka says, smiling a bit as we head towards the stairwell leading off the roof. "If that's the way it is, I could see it being fun, if you're looking forward to getting to make the world the way you want it to be. That's the fun part of dreams, at least to me - getting to see all the totally impossible things that can't happen in the real world.
"Oh- not that they can't happen at all!" She catches herself, blushing a little. "I know that's the kind of thing you're looking for in your club, I just meant-"
Since it's Sakanaka still speaking, I'm not sure a paragraph break is warranted--or, for more clarity, end the first paragraph during her dialogue, so it can be clear she's still speaking by the lack of a trailing quotation mark?
QuoteI just snort in reply, putting my head down on my desk as the first teacher for the afternoon comes in. At least I've got the assignment pattern worked out for now, so maybe I can get some 'dreaming time' in before the Brigade meeting after school.
Pattern meaning when or which days she's likely to get an assignment?
Quote"All right, it's time to get serious about finding something unusual!" I slam my hand down on my desk, startling the rest of the Brigade - who, as usual, are reverting to their everyday, boring routine without me pushing them. Kyon and Koizumi just finished setting up the Othello board, Yuki is messing around with one of the club's laptops, and Mikuru is just starting to serve the tea when I make my announcement.
I find the break here and the start of this scene to be a bit sudden. There is, in my mind, a lack of explanation of Haruhi's thought process. Has she had this planned for some time? Is it spurred by her conversation with Sakanaka?
QuoteThe next day after class, I end up hauling Kyon behind me to the club room. He's got an assignment, after all, and I'm not letting him slack off on this one! Of course, we end up making it there before anyone else does and we have to wait anyway, but better that than having to deal with excuses if he was late.
Repetition of "end up" here.
QuoteI scowl at that - Kyoto's just so normal - but he does have a point about the money, I don't have a lot saved up either. "How lame," I grouse. "Still, though, if that's all you can afford, I suppose it can't be helped. We can check out the old ruins for ghosts or youkai, I guess." That does remind me of a weekend trip I'd thought of myself, though. "If we're just doing day trips, though, we could scout out Himeji Castle too - there's a pretty famous ghost story associated with it."
Perhaps "money;" instead of comma?
QuoteThe others don't really show any unexpected reactions to the suggestion. Koizumi seems pleased enough with it (although he generally seems to be okay with most things; there isn't much I've seen that will get him upset.) Yuki just glances up from her book to look at Kyon for a moment, and Mikuru has that somewhat lost look she almost always has. Kyon himself still seems a bit dissatisfied, though - what's the story there, it's not like I said it was the worst idea in the world or something!
While I agree with Haruhi that these reactions aren't particularly unusual, Asahina "always" looking lost gives the idea that Haruhi thinks she's perpetually overwhelmed. Also, perhaps "there?" and start a new sentence with "it's"? Otherwise the question seems to get lost.
QuoteOf course, this is Kyon we're talking about. "A dream trip, huh?" While I'll privately admit to being impressed, there's no <i>way</i> I'm telling him that - he'd just take it as an excuse to get even more complacent, and he's lazy enough as it is. Then I remember talking with Sakanaka at lunch, and I know just how to spin this. "Dreams are supposed to be full of wild and impossible things, and that's the best you can come up with?"
This is lunch the day
before that she had that conversation, yeah?
The way Haruhi's thought processes digress here--turning "dream" from a figurative sense into something more literal--feels a bit off, like it's too much of a leap. It's set up, but I have a hard time convincing myself she would think that way naturally. As a purposeful diversion, which I think is what you were going for, I think it can work. If so, I think that angle could stand to be played up a little more.
QuoteMikuru starts a bit at the question, looking embarrassed for some reason - what, it's not <i>that</i> strange a question! She fumbles with the skirt of her uniform for a minute before replying, not meeting anyone's eyes. "It... I... um... it's something I learned about before I, um, came to Kitago."
This is interesting. While Asahina volunteering that information comes as a surprise, having it connect with her background makes a lot of sense. I like this notion quite a bit.
QuoteKyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I don't really pay her too much attention as I get the computer shut down, but I do notice that she lingers for a minute before she leaves. Normally I wouldn't think anything of it, except that when I collect my own bag, I notice that there's a book in my chair - about lucid dreaming, of all things! Maybe Yuki noticed what I was reading and had a book she wanted to offer me?
This feels a bit tell-y instead of show-y. I hope not to be too obnoxious at this juncture, but let me elaborate with a possible way it could be rewritten:
Quote from: possibilityKyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I press the power button on the tower, and the monitor flickers off, but as I rise from my chair, I look out the doorway and spot the tip of an indoor shoe. When I peer around to get a better angle, the owner of the shoe moves, her footfalls totally silent. Only Yuki walks that quietly, but why would she wait for me to lock up?
I collect my bag, and that's when I find it: a blue paperback with a surreal drawing of a human head in profile on the cover. "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming," reads the title. Yuki must've noticed I was interested. Strange that she'd have something so topical on hand, though.
There are several things I'm trying to impart with that, which you can feel free to accept or discard as you feel appropriate, of course. I tend to put a heavy emphasis on sensory information--Haruhi doesn't just turn the computer off, she
presses the power button and the monitor
flickers as a result. Nagato doesn't just wait at the doorway, but Haruhi knows she's there from the tip of her shoe. Specificity, I feel, is important, too: don't just say "a book" but give it a name, a title, authors, and a curious cover graphic. I found this one just googling "lucid dreaming books" and found it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X).
QuoteI don't have much opportunity for reading it that night, though; homework assignments for the vacation week ahead are starting to get issued, and since I don't want to waste any of my time off doing it, that means taking more time than usual to finish it up at home. I don't bother to take the book out of my bag before school the next day, though; if nothing else, I might be able to start in on it at lunchtime.
Is it equivalent to stay just "start it" instead of "start in on it"?
QuoteAfter class ends, I head off to the club room like I normally do; there's nothing pressing today, so I don't bother to wait up for Kyon. Yuki's the only one in the room - unsurprisingly - and so I go through my usual routine while I wait for the others to arrive: checking the club's email address and website to see how many visitors we've had, scanning through a few 'news of the weird' websites to see if anything interesting has happened nearby that's worth checking out. Nothing on any front today, though, but that's not really that big a deal - this is mostly just to kill time while the slowpokes take their time getting here.
And, similarly, "head to" instead of "head off to"?
Quote"Better you than me," I aver. "Anyway, since it looks like things aren't going to go anywhere today, and Koizumi called out anyway, club is dismissed. Mikuru-chan, Yuki, keep looking into stuff we can do nearby - Kyon may not be coming along, but that doesn't mean we're canceling our Golden Week plans!"
Despite the broad range of philosophy and science that Tanigawa likes to invoke, I'm not sure if I can really buy Haruhi using the word "aver" if she were speaking English.
QuoteI toss around a couple of other ideas as I finish the trip home, but can't come up with anything solid. Since the Brigade meeting broke up early I'm home quite a bit earlier than usual, and to top that off Mom texted me to let me know she'd be working late tonight, too, so I've got an empty house to keep me company for most of the night - not something I particularly enjoy all that much.
Question: I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts
per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail. Is that not the case?
General remark: Haruhi's decision to give Kyon this assignment is well thought out. I think more passages like that would give the story a better feel and pacing.
QuoteI'm feeling impatient the next day, so I actually head back to the classroom after picking up my lunch to talk to Kyon. Unsurprisingly, he's occupied when I get back to the room - as usual, Kunikida and that halfwit Taniguchi. The fifteen minute wonder catches sight of me coming back in right away, though, so by the time I make it back to my desk they've already fled to their own side of the classroom. Honestly, I don't even know why I agreed to go out with him in middle school - it's not like I didn't know exactly how it was going to turn out.
"actually" can be cut. "head back" and "get back" feel repetitious. You can replace the latter with "get there" and lose no meaning.
Quote"What's with that look?" I challenge him. "Let me guess, it's something perverted that you don't want to tell me." I don't really think that's it, though - he doesn't look even slightly embarrassed, and if it really was something weird like that I imagine he'd be red in the face or fidgety.
Mind, this is a guy who told Haruhi he had to leave because he didn't want to misplace a borrowed porn magazine.
Quote"You were..." Kyon sighs. "You were excited about the blue things clearing everything away to make way for something new and better, and I was afraid that we'd end up losing everything we already had if that happened."
Okay, Kyon, I look forward to hearing why you choose to say this. You didn't think she forgot, did you?
At any rate, my general feeling throughout was that, while the plot was reasonable to follow, the flow of events feels a bit fast. That's not a problem with the plot so much as how it's depicted. With a touch more narrative glue--like the scene mentioned above where Haruhi decides on Kyon's assignment or at the end where she settles on trying to share Kyon's dreams--I think this would be about perfect. As far as my pacing concerns, some of that may be inevitable considering that several days are covered here, so perhaps that shouldn't be too concerning, either.
Regarding some other comments: I did feel that the interest Haruhi expressed in lucid dreaming was merely distant curiosity until Kyon told her about the end of
Melancholy, so the ramp up in her interest at that point seemed appropriate. That said, a passing mention that she wakes up remembering nothing of what happened while she slept may not be unjustified, either--she might, at this point, not quite get what all the fuss is about.
Quote from: MuphridQuestion: I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail. Is that not the case?
Japanese phones use something based on email, with a few proprietary additions such as emoji. (What I don't remember is to what extent the service interoperates with regular email -- but I think it does so reasonably well.) Unrelated: I remember seeing brochures for Japanese phones which specifically have screenshots demonstrating how many characters of email fit on the screen at various font size settings... it seems to be treated as a crucial feature, perhaps even more so than texting on Western phones.
Hm, personally I often see fanfiction writers use 'texting' as a synonym for 'email' with respect to Japanese cell phones. It all amounts to the same thing anyways - sending bits of text back and forth from cell phone to cell phone. Since the primary difference these days is in technological implementation on the back end, (well, and probably pricing structure,) I don't really find myself stumbling over either usage. As far as Americanisms in fanfiction go, this one strikes me as entirely harmless...
I'm sort of conflicted over whether to second Murphid's suggestion to give the title of some specific book. That seems to open a whole can of worms as to which book is most likely to be floating around in Japanese translation, for one thing, and there's a risk that it would strengthen any misplaced expectations people have that the fic is going to present a more 'realistic' picture of lucid dreaming. (EDIT: i.e. not naming the book is a valid choice for what Hal wants to be doing and *annoyed at myself* should have probably been a giveaway for me not to harp on the issue so much; conversely, naming some specific book could easily be taken to imply that the mechanics of lucid dreaming in the fic are going to be based off that book.)
Yeah, as far as texting goes, I don't have a big problem with it, but it was something I noticed because I'd made a conscious decision to avoid it out of caution.
The title thing may have been a bit too specific on my part. To me, just the visual description of the cover is as important, if not more. What kind of book is it? Hardback? Paperback? New? Old and worn on the corners? Is it thick or thin? Does it have unique art on the cover? Maybe that's all veering into personal preference. I mean, it's not like I can't imagine a typical book in Haruhi's hands as she examines it, but the details can't hurt to build an image of it--to make it feel real even when it isn't.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 17, 2011, 12:47:43 AMYeah, as far as texting goes, I don't have a big problem with it, but it was something I noticed because I'd made a conscious decision to avoid it out of caution.
Oh? You can get around that by simply calling it a 'message'. If you can't do the research, be vague. ;)
Edit: Hmm, that came across a bit dismissively. :x
Sometimes it's hard to find good research information on what's ultimately a triviality. If the important element is that a text message or e-mail gets through, being vague about which is fine (unless that detail happens to be critical to your plot).
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Since it's Sakanaka still speaking, I'm not sure a paragraph break is warranted--or, for more clarity, end the first paragraph during her dialogue, so it can be clear she's still speaking by the lack of a trailing quotation mark?
That's... actually what happens there? Look again at the section you quoted.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Pattern meaning when or which days she's likely to get an assignment?
...
I find the break here and the start of this scene to be a bit sudden. There is, in my mind, a lack of explanation of Haruhi's thought process. Has she had this planned for some time? Is it spurred by her conversation with Sakanaka?
Added a paragraph at the end of the classroom scene to address both points.
QuoteOr at least that was the plan - which failed miserably, thanks to Kyon... although I should probably be thankful to him for that. While I had the regular assignments right, what I forgot to take into account was that Golden Week is coming up next week, and the teachers are handing out extra homework to be done over the holiday. Which reminds me, I haven't made any plans for the time off yet myself...
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Repetition of "end up" here.
Changed the first instance around to "make sure to haul Kyon with me".
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
While I agree with Haruhi that these reactions aren't particularly unusual, Asahina "always" looking lost gives the idea that Haruhi thinks she's perpetually overwhelmed. Also, perhaps "there?" and start a new sentence with "it's"? Otherwise the question seems to get lost.
That actually -is- Haruhi's perception of Mikuru at this point; someone always waiting for the other shoe to drop, or waiting to see what Haruhi is going to do to her next. Haruhi really hasn't had much occasion to see Mikuru acting in any other way, although I'll add in 'when something's happening' since she likely wouldn't be so apprehensive on a normal, quiet day.
Sentence break also noted and added.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
This is lunch the day before that she had that conversation, yeah?
Yes.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PMThe way Haruhi's thought processes digress here--turning "dream" from a figurative sense into something more literal--feels a bit off, like it's too much of a leap. It's set up, but I have a hard time convincing myself she would think that way naturally. As a purposeful diversion, which I think is what you were going for, I think it can work. If so, I think that angle could stand to be played up a little more.
QuoteI don't want to come down on it as lame, since it actually isn't, but I need something to use to spin my response... then I remember talking with Sakanaka at lunch yesterday, and I know just what to do.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
This feels a bit tell-y instead of show-y. I hope not to be too obnoxious at this juncture, but let me elaborate with a possible way it could be rewritten:
Quote from: possibilityKyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I press the power button on the tower, and the monitor flickers off, but as I rise from my chair, I look out the doorway and spot the tip of an indoor shoe. When I peer around to get a better angle, the owner of the shoe moves, her footfalls totally silent. Only Yuki walks that quietly, but why would she wait for me to lock up?
I collect my bag, and that's when I find it: a blue paperback with a surreal drawing of a human head in profile on the cover. "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming," reads the title. Yuki must've noticed I was interested. Strange that she'd have something so topical on hand, though.
There are several things I'm trying to impart with that, which you can feel free to accept or discard as you feel appropriate, of course. I tend to put a heavy emphasis on sensory information--Haruhi doesn't just turn the computer off, she presses the power button and the monitor flickers as a result. Nagato doesn't just wait at the doorway, but Haruhi knows she's there from the tip of her shoe. Specificity, I feel, is important, too: don't just say "a book" but give it a name, a title, authors, and a curious cover graphic. I found this one just googling "lucid dreaming books" and found it on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X).
Several points to address here, and I'll probably wander all over the place so bear with me. Starting at the last point, I specifically want to avoid providing any book titles; while I'm not so full of myself as to think that people are going to read this and take what it says as a suggestion to run out and buy a book, I've also had it drilled into my head that you never recommend anything by a third party without a damn good reason, either. (I write tech support emails for a living.)
As far as expanding the description goes, I've done some of that, but part of it too is that Haruhi is a very direct person in my view - she's not going to spend a ton of time describing her observations, she's going to cut straight to the chase and say what she thinks happened; what you have there as a suggestion for the first paragraph is more of a Kyon-like approach. She's not really like Kyon at all in that regard; he might futz around the point and describe what he's seeing obliquely to hint at what's going on, but in all honesty I'd see her finding that kind of description to be a waste of time and energy.
QuoteKyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I don't really pay her too much attention as I get the computer shut down, but I do notice that she lingers next to the table for a minute before she leaves, while I'm waiting for the computer to finish powering off. Normally I wouldn't think anything of it, except that when I collect my own bag, I notice that there's a book on the end of the table - kind of an aqua green color, about the size of a textbook; it doesn't look like the novels that Yuki usually reads, or that are all over the shelves in here. It's a little odd, since Yuki almost never leaves her books laying around, but when I turn it over, I notice that it seems to be about lucid dreaming, of all things! Maybe she noticed what I was reading and had a book she wanted to offer me?
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Is it equivalent to stay just "start it" instead of "start in on it"?
And, similarly, "head to" instead of "head off to"?
Both are idioms; there's no functional difference between them, and I prefer to keep Haruhi's narrative a bit more colloquial.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Despite the broad range of philosophy and science that Tanigawa likes to invoke, I'm not sure if I can really buy Haruhi using the word "aver" if she were speaking English.
A point to disagree on, I suppose. 'aver' is probably best defined as 'crossword puzzle bait' in English, and given Haruhi's propensity for finding interesting ways of doing things, I could easily see her using crosswords as a vocabulary expander. I don't see her being a fanatic over them or anything, but I suspect as an English speaker she'd tear through the NY Times Sunday crossword every now and then to keep herself sharp.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PMQuestion: I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail. Is that not the case?
This, and to a slightly lesser extent the previous point, both fall under the heading of 'localization' to me. While the term might not be strictly accurate to Japanese speakers, those aren't the primary audience here, either. Using 'mail' would open up room for confusion, since it wouldn't be readily apparent to non-informed English speakers what it was referring to, but 'texting' refers to the exact same practice and leaves far less of an opportunity for misunderstanding.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PM
Mind, this is a guy who told Haruhi he had to leave because he didn't want to misplace a borrowed porn magazine.
There's a slight difference between admitting to looking at an ero manga (which in Japan is honestly not that big a deal) and admitting to a person that you've had erotic dreams about them specifically.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PMAt any rate, my general feeling throughout was that, while the plot was reasonable to follow, the flow of events feels a bit fast. That's not a problem with the plot so much as how it's depicted. With a touch more narrative glue--like the scene mentioned above where Haruhi decides on Kyon's assignment or at the end where she settles on trying to share Kyon's dreams--I think this would be about perfect. As far as my pacing concerns, some of that may be inevitable considering that several days are covered here, so perhaps that shouldn't be too concerning, either.
That's largely the case here; as the first chapter, the main focus is on setting up what the narrative will cover more as the story unfolds. The pacing is a bit quick, admittedly, but I also don't want to spend a huge amount of time going over events and setup that will end up being largely irrelevant to the story as a whole.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 16, 2011, 07:07:26 PMRegarding some other comments: I did feel that the interest Haruhi expressed in lucid dreaming was merely distant curiosity until Kyon told her about the end of Melancholy, so the ramp up in her interest at that point seemed appropriate. That said, a passing mention that she wakes up remembering nothing of what happened while she slept may not be unjustified, either--she might, at this point, not quite get what all the fuss is about.
In response to this and the other points on the same topic, this is what I'm going with. While she's aware of the existence of lucid dreaming and some of the basic concepts behind it (more or less what you could pick up in an hour or two of browsing online), she's also aware at this point that she has what amounts to an instruction manual on how to do it. Couple that with the fact that she doesn't have more than a mild interest in it (until Kyon's mention of the Melancholy dream) and she's basically just content to wait until she's had a chance to read about how it actually works and how to do it before she tries to force the issue.
Then suddenly:
A surprise chapter two!
Oh yeah, I think I might have forgotten to mention. Brian's going to be co-authoring this one with me. =) I'll be doing chapters from Haruhi's perspective, while he handles Kyon's side of things.
Hm, well that was an interesting surprise... prior to actual C&C, I guess I'll share one particular thought on the story as a whole.
The contrast between the level of detail on Brian's and Hal's chapters made me rethink Hal's chapter a bit. (In Brian's chapter Kyon seemed to be paying more or less the amount of attention to what he was doing that I'd expect a normal person trying this stuff to pay. This makes it a bit more clear that what Hal was trying to do was deliberate.)
To me, Haruhi's approach (when placed next to Kyon's) seemed to be showing some of the same traits that made her such an atrocious film director; that is, her interest in the field doesn't actually lead her to pay much attention to some crucial aspects of it, since she assumes she can just jump in and pick up the necessary details at the last minute (and in the case of this fic she certainly can). This is how I justify to myself the fact that, after doing quite a bit of reading on the topic of lucid dreaming, she doesn't bother to bring up a single detail of what she's read in her narration. Of course, since with a reality warper the laws of physics are far
more malleable than the laws of good storytelling, Haruhi is of course a much better lucid dreamer than she is a film director.
So the lack of detail makes perfect sense to me now, but since I'm not sure whether mine is a charitable interpretation or a treasonous one, or if it's at all possible to either support or disprove it within the context of Haruhi-PoV... it just shows how much I was jumping the gun with my comments, I guess?
It does occur to me that Hal justifies his style in large part by saying that Haruhi only gets serious about the dream project about six-sevenths of the way through the chapter (when she considers the possibility of a shared dream with Kyon). Entirely reasonable, but then this line:
Quote
I shake my head, stuffing it in my bag before I head out and lock up the club room. However it got there, I can certainly put it to good use - after what I was reading about online, I want to try it myself now!
... really worked against that, and my resulting assumption of Haruhi's enthusiasm drove a large portion of my original feedback insisting that she pay more attention to the actual details of the subject. Would it be an unreasonably drastic change to weaken that one line a little by changing the "want to try it now" to something more in the ballpark of "wouldn't mind trying it myself"?
It seems given all the commentary on this thread that it's just meant to express that Haruhi thinks it's a cool idea, but as the line stands it's extremely tempting to take Haruhi at face value and think (prematurely) that she literally wants to try lucid dreaming herself now, by that point in the chapter, when it's actually something she has yet to decide.
(Also, the paragraph seems to say she stuffs her head in the bag. I... knew there was something off about all the 'it's when I C&Ced it, even *after* my attempt to edit down the 'it' quotient (see my attachment). How did I miss that going through the first time around? I guess I see it now because I ripped it out of context into a quote box...
Okay, no big deal. Just something I missed the first time 'round.)
That aside, Hal was doing something extremely valid and I definitely overreacted. (As I said to Brian: I seem to have a general problem with giving story feedback prematurely.) As I noted, I
really like the particular implication created by Hal's approach that Haruhi doesn't bother remembering her dreams when she doesn't have any reason to, but once she's consciously focusing on the matter, she has absolutely no trouble doing it :-)
gonna admit, kinda sad that no one's commented on chapter two
Maybe no one noticed it there because I thought it would be 'funny' and 'clever' to not mention I was co-authoring until this chapter? Anyway....
Fixed some minor continuity errors and a whole host of repetition issues. Pathetic bump, somewhat hoping people just didn't notice, and that's why the lack of comments. :\
Corrections directly on the HTML, as usual.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AM
Corrections directly on the HTML, as usual.
Yaay! Thanks, Hal. :)
As always, unless otherwise commented, I used your suggestions.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMRepetition of cocoon here.
Second changed to 'back into my bedding'.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AM>> I'm not sure of the connection between these two paragraphs. Is it because it's not so cold, so the loss of blankets isn't so big a deal?
Yes, to both.
Will expand on that to clarify.
Quote from: revisionThen, naturally, my little sister uses the less lethal blanket-strip-away maneuver. I get up before she can follow it with a more martial technique, and she giggles and runs away, leaving me in the cool morning air. At least it's not as frigid as it was just a few short months ago.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMYuki never answers this question, although whether that's intentional or not I'm not sure (or if Kyon's too lost in thought to pay attention to it.)
Intentional, yeah. Hm, actually -- I don't like the implication Kyon's not paying attention to her after his resolve to try and treat her better; I'll revise that.
QuoteWell.... "Did you have anything planned for your day off, before the Brigade's trips start?" I prompt.
"Not really," is her quiet response.
"Hmm." I can't really like the thought of not participating, somehow. It's strange, but I think I've been involved in more activities with that group than Haruhi has. Given that, why should it bother me that I'm the one excluded this time?
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMOnce we make it to my Aunt Mion's house, Uncle Keiichi escorts us inside, my little sister waking up enough to fumble her way into a futon in one of the guest bedrooms.
Ah-- 'My aunt' is not a proper noun, actually, so the title is not capitalized. But then it looks odd. Dropping the 'my' to use your correction and make it fit in better.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMRepetition of 'vantage' here. Maybe replace the first one with view?
Good call.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMLast sentence here is a bit awkward - not sure what it's trying to say.
Euch. Yeah; okay. I was trying to describe the dam for later -- will break this out a bit and expand on it, then:
Quote from: revisionThe cousins, of course, like to pretend it's much more severe, and we're a group of bold adventurers forging into the unknown depths of a primeval forest. I can't help but think that Haruhi might be pleased by that thought.
For an 'untouched wilderness', there's one significant structure, which the children quickly dub 'the evil fortress'. The unattended dam doesn't quite loom, but is still several meters tall, aged concrete with rust stains marring its surface regularly. Perhaps implying a gate or other entrance, there's an even rustier metal grate, centered like gritted teeth at the bottom, frothing with the river's outflow.
Once the blankets and bentos are all set out, there's no real free time for me to relax. Observing my 'troops', I need to keep an eye on Shutaro especially -- if he toddles too close to the river, that could be trouble. Certainly, I don't want any of the cousins trying to break into the 'fortress' through that grate in the river.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMSuggestion: maybe "on either side of an uncomfortable-looking Naota,"
Good call -- went with that. :)
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMThis is, after all, the natural place to build the dam, but that cuts the expedition short. -> I'd replace 'that' with 'the weather', since it's a bit unclear here.
Okay, and then changed 'the expedition' to 'our expedition' to try and avoid repetition there.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AM"She pouts, putting her hands on my arm and trying to tug me away from the small chair she can't squeeze in next to me in." - I understand what you're saying here, but "she can't squeeze in next to me in" is really odd-looking. Maybe "small chair in which she's unable to squeeze in next to me"?
When in doubt, restate:
Quote from: revisionShe pouts, putting her hands on my arm and trying to tug me away from my seat. I had intentionally chosen a chair small enough that she couldn't squeeze in next to me.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMI really like the verbal sound effects for Rika; merely a suggestion, but if you want to use 'real' onomatopoeia, try the listing at http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2485
Only a suggestion, though; there's no reason Rika wouldn't just make up her own as she goes, either.
Ah, a quick check shows that the sound-effect related to Kyon's name is on that list -- or close enough for her to take some liberties. I'll go with it; the rain becomes 'saaa, saaa', and chopping will be 'choki, choki'. Later, if the rain increases, it'll totally be 'zaaa, zaaa', ni-pah~!
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMMay just be a dumb moment on my part, but has Nagato ever tried to change the weather before?
She hasn't. Reference to the baseball game; it's not that she failed, it's that there were potential side-effects. I can expand on this a bit and make it clearer:
Quote from: revisionI expect that if Nagato can't do it without side-effects, Hinamizawa's kami aren't about to change the weather, either. Despite that, I show Shutaro how to stuff and bundle the cloth, then help him tie the string off on his own 'shine shine monk'.
And a bonus Higurashi reference!
Hanyuu: Hauuuu~!
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMReptition of 'own' between these two lines. Maybe more specific for the second - "helping Eiko tie a string on her teruterubouzu"?
It's worse than you thought-- Repetition on four lines. Revised, greatly:
Quote from: revisionDespite that, I show Shutaro how to stuff and bundle the cloth, then help him tie the string off on his little 'shine shine monk'.
"Why's it called that?" he asks, while the other cousins labor away at their own.
"You remember, right, Kyon-kun?" Aunt Rika prompts, helping Eiko with her project.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMSFX here too, just to point it out if you're making changes.
Will do. I should also consistently offset her SFX with an em-dash, to make them (incomphrehensible, fragmentary) sentences.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMI'd combine the previous two paragraphs myself.
Then I'll do that.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMI wouldn't hyphenate the last sentence here, just bridge it - "; meanwhile, my sister" etc.
Done.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMHe was reading the book in the dream?
I'll rework this; he was dreaming about reading the book. He'll realize/suspect he's dreaming because the words keep shifting around.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMI'd suggest 'unbuttoned long black coat'.
Oh, wow, implications, otherwise. O_O CHANG'D.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMMight be worth pointing out here that Haruhi doesn't change out of the maid uniform, although if you want to skip it I can point it up in the next chapter.
I revised to add a passing mention, but I think you'll want to have it come up in Haruhi's PoV anyway.
Quote from: Halbarad on November 20, 2011, 10:03:25 AMCombine previous two paragraphs here also.
Done.
Alright! Thanks a ton for the feedback, Hal.
So ... when's the next chapter gonna be out, anyway? ;)
It'll be a while. I have a blue-haired yandere that's waving a knife at me first.
Please find below my uncensored thoughts.
I don't know anything about Higurashi, which probably affects my impression.
The first section is in past tense, after that the story continues in present tense.
I still can't see where Kyon's decision to talk about the Melancholy incident comes from. He knows that it wasn't a dream, so the issue shouldn't even come to his mind when asked about dreams, that link only makes sense from Haruhi's POV. The given rationale does not appear convincing.
References to Greek and Roman mythology, wouldn't Kyon prefer Japanese mythology instead? Even then, I wonder whether Kyon would use the real name Heracles instead of its Roman derivative (as it isn't a Roman myth)?
Arriving at the vacation place, there are way too many new people for me. A personal problem, I can handle maybe one or two new persons at a time, anything beyond that becomes a blur. I can't get anything out of the middle part of the chapter.
Specific points related to lucid dreaming: waking up and closing eyes.
Waking up from a lucid dream is a completely different experience than waking up from a normal dream, and that is not properly presented. When in a lucid dream, you will usually get a short moment of warning when you are about to wake up, and during that time you'll experience a very peculiar, disorienting sensation as your internal body image has to adjust to the differences in posture between your dream and real body. If you don't have enough time for that, you'll have to readjust while already awake, and that's just as disorienting. Finding yourself in a sitting position by the end of the dream is extremely unlikely.
Closing your eyes in a lucid dream doesn't work for the exactly same reason why you can breathe with your mouth closed. Even if you managed to disconnect yourself from the visual stream, you'd most likely just wake up. However, looking elsewhere works. One of my standard tests is to open a book from a random place, read and remember some sentence from there, look away for a moment and then check whether the sentence is still there. Also, walking through walls is easiest when you turn your back against the wall and walk backward through it without looking.
And then, toward the end of the chapter, without any warning -- squick. Involuntary adjustment of mental processes? To me, that is the definition of mind rape, a violation of mental integrity and a fate worse than death.
By the way, how does Nagato know about it?
I got the shakes and want to scream.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMPlease find below my uncensored thoughts.
I don't know anything about Higurashi, which probably affects my impression.
You don't need to; those characters are mostly background. The only important ones get the most attention -- the ... two that are within your threshold.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMThe first section is in past tense, after that the story continues in present tense.
Oops. I'll fix that, then.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMI still can't see where Kyon's decision to talk about the Melancholy incident comes from. He knows that it wasn't a dream, so the issue shouldn't even come to his mind when asked about dreams, that link only makes sense from Haruhi's POV. The given rationale does not appear convincing.
He sees it as an opportunity to test if she remembers. I might have been a bit unclear about that; actually, the idea was Hal's. :p
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMReferences to Greek and Roman mythology, wouldn't Kyon prefer Japanese mythology instead? Even then, I wonder whether Kyon would use the real name Heracles instead of its Roman derivative (as it isn't a Roman myth)?
Ah, should be using the Greek ones specifically, but that was all from memory and hence jumbled. And, in canon, Kyon refers to foreign mythology as much as others. I'll fix them to the proper Greek names consistently.
I'm almost positive you'll stop reading here, so
this chapter was going to be Greek, next chapter Egyptian, culminating in a joke about the rosetta stone and understanding Haruhi (yeah, stupid, I know).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMArriving at the vacation place, there are way too many new people for me. A personal problem, I can handle maybe one or two new persons at a time, anything beyond that becomes a blur. I can't get anything out of the middle part of the chapter.
It's all a backdrop to show where Kyon is and showcase that he misses Haruhi; I wanted to give the cousins some character to avoid them being flat. They're not that critical to the story, mostly flavor and a bonus for people who are familiar with Higurashi. The important ones get more screen-time -- Matsuri, Yurie, and Rika.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMA lucid dreamer's intense dissapointment with the representation of it by someone who remembers dreams incredibly rarely.
Uh ... that's.... Okay, fine. I'll try and adjust to that. A bit of work, but hopefully I can manage to not offend genuine lucid dreamers with my presentation.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMAnd then, toward the end of the chapter, without any warning -- squick. Involuntary adjustment of mental processes? To me, that is the definition of mind rape, a violation of mental integrity and a fate worse than death.
*twitch*
I can't write
anything without it squicking you, huh?
Sars, I hate to do this, but-- Do you actually have an issue with
me? If so, that's fine. I can accept that.
Just don't read anything I write; I am prepared to accept that. In the meantime, I'm going to assume
everything I write horrifies and disturbs you at this point, since the most innocent attempt to try and say, "Haruhi's giving Kyon a boost in learning something difficult for normal people" is going to lead to:
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMI got the shakes and want to scream.
Sorry; taking this personally since it's, what, instance number four? Five?
Not going to bother trying to defend the story or explain that you're reading something into it that's not there-- Just giving up and backing away because I'm really, really, tired of every discussion ending with you being horrifically squicked/screaming/crying -- maybe it's unintentional, but you're making me feel like a real jerk since this is your reaction to absolutely everything I write now. Absolutely, you're making me hate myself over a single innocuous, well-intentioned line of text.
Cripes.
Excised the damn thing -- that entire scene is gone. Now Kyon just has miracle lucid-dream-learning abilities and the scene that was supposed to show Kyon missing Haruhi and hoping she would call is entirely axed.
just can't %@$&ing winQuote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMBy the way, how does Nagato know about it?
I can't imagine you actually care at this point, but through TFEI magic. *gives up*
That scene was removed to satisfy you anyway--
That being said, I honestly believe that anything I try and write is going to end up doing this to you. As much as I value your feedback, I really, really can't handle you being crushed/squicked at every little innocent thing. It's an awful lot for me, and I think you will be much, much happier by not forcing yourself to read things that evidently are so disturbing and horrifying to you. Certainly,
I'll be happy without thinking, "Well, another day to post a story to SR and see how I unintentionally hurt Sarsaparilla this time!"
Thanks for the feedback; I'm crushed to have
yet again, upset you. Please stop hurting yourself like this. My stories can't be worth it.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 01:40:21 PM
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 12:43:55 PMI still can't see where Kyon's decision to talk about the Melancholy incident comes from. He knows that it wasn't a dream, so the issue shouldn't even come to his mind when asked about dreams, that link only makes sense from Haruhi's POV. The given rationale does not appear convincing.
He sees it as an opportunity to test if she remembers. I might have been a bit unclear about that; actually, the idea was Hal's. :p
Since it was my idea there, I'll clarify a bit. The idea I had was that since Kyon rarely if ever remembers his dreams, this is one of the few things he could actually use for talking about a dream. Add in the fact that Haruhi really didn't say a lot about it at the time (just that she had a nightmare and she was wearing a ponytail), and that it's been nearly a year since it happened, he actually wondered to an extent whether she'd even remember it now.
Before I go to get some rest, a hopefully less squicky version of the chapter.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 01:40:21 PM
Sars, I hate to do this, but-- Do you actually have an issue with me? If so, that's fine. I can accept that.
No, I don't have any issues with you, but the passage in question doesn't leave any room for interpretation. If somebody's inside me without permission, then it doesn't matter what they do in there, it's still a rape. There's nothing innocent in violating mental integrity, I'd rather have my body violated six ways to Sunday than let somebody alter my mind, the actual core of myself, without permission.
As a simile, it's like somebody breaking in your home without permission and making changes, it permanently defiles the place.
In such a situation, I'd probably kill myself as fast as I could, while still in control of my faculties.
Considering this whole situation, I don't know what would be an acceptable solution. I see things the way I see them, and that cannot be changed. If you don't want me to tell about things that disturb me, then I can comply with that, though I may become unable to give any feedback.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 02:15:28 PMIn such a situation, I'd probably kill myself as fast as I could, while still in control of my faculties.
Wow, I didn't think you could make me feel any lower. Nope-- There's my threshold, all of my emotions just shut off.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 02:15:28 PMConsidering this whole situation, I don't know what would be an acceptable solution. I see things the way I see them, and that cannot be changed. If you don't want me to tell about things that disturb me, then I can comply with that, though I may become unable to give any feedback.
Apologies if you've been upset by my responses. While my general suggestion is that you should avoid hurting yourself, if you still want to comment, the most constructive means I can think of would be to not just say something squicks you, but to try and analyze the intent.
If this is beyond you, I'm totally open to reading, "This squicked me; what did you mean to do?" And then I could answer-- My design being that you would look at the intent and then be able to propose a solution that does not squick you. A happy compromise, if such is possible.
In short, the goal would be:
Quote from: A possibilityBrian: "Haruhi rewires Kyon to be able to learn LD faster than a normal human would be able to."
Sarsaparilla: *squicked* "'Rewiring' is a violation; that disturbs me. What is your goal here? Can't see it through all the mind-rape."
Brian: "Suggestions for how else Haruhi can help Kyon learn LD faster than normal, to properly lampshade the effect that do not squick you?"
Sarsaparilla: "Instead of rewiring, how about optimizing environmental factors? Maybe the sound of rain+other cues in the area help him out without invading his mind."
Brian: "Fascinating. I can work with that. Do you have further suggestions or recomendations for sites that I could read that would clarify this to me?"
Instead of:
Quote from: the realityBrian: "Haruhi helps Kyon learn lucid dreaming, and Yuki explicitly states it will have no bearing on his personality/freedom of thought."
Sarsaparilla: "SO SQUICKED!"
Brian: "And now I hate myself. Again." *sulks for a week*
One feels more productive than the other.
I should say that while I'm in this detached state, I recognize my inability to feel empathy (or anything else). I don't intend it to be rude or dismissive; this is my absolutely coldly logical attempt at a compromise that will help us both and also continue to serve the story. I am not certain, but I believe this system of perception-checking could actually assist other people reading other works, as in retrospect, I have done the same in the past.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 02:57:43 PM
Suggestions for how else Haruhi can help Kyon learn LD faster than normal, to properly lampshade the effect that do not squick you?
A fair approach.
Lucid dreaming is all about motivation. You see dreams every night, even if you don't remember them afterwards. Turning them lucid requires quite a lot of extra effort, just like it takes much more effort to write a story than to read one. Hence, a person like Kyon who is naturally reluctant to work more than absolutely necessary will have a very hard time achieving lucidity, just because he's not certain that the rewards are worth the effort.
The point of the exercises mentioned in guide books is just to help one build that motivation through repetition of simple tasks, but as long as the person doesn't have a strong interest in achieving lucidity, it won't happen. Poking around in Kyon's brain will not help the basic issue, without turning him into a different person (as lucid dreaming is a mental state, not magic).
So, what can be used, then? Anything that gives Kyon a strong motivation to succeed with the task. That can even happen while
inside a dream, some people have found lucidity when confronted by a threatening situation in a dream, then realizing the fact and subverting the threat by taking control of the dream. In the end it doesn't matter what it is as long as Kyon really, really wants to succeed.
I will note that for later, when I start the next revision. One component of this idea was that Haruhi in some way 'helps' Kyon (beyond simply giving him the book/instructions). Are there any openings for this to happen that do not come across as a violation?
As planned, Haruhi actually meeting him in dreams should not happen until after Kyon at least starts to grasp the basics and is able to control his dreams (or the joke there falls short -- to say nothing of disrupting Hal's chapter).
It would help narrative flow to also salvage the scene where Kyon hopes that Haruhi's calling him, and it's actually Yuki.
Those factors basically equate into wondering if it is possible to have Haruhi 'help' Kyon in a way that's not a violation, and Yuki also has a chance to observe (and hence call Kyon about it later). I can devise scenes involving nightmares etc. -- other things that might motivate Kyon. It would be counter to the goal of the story if it casts Haruhi in a negative/invasive light, however, so while I have some ideas, I must ask for additional guidance to ensure that this is on a path that is in keeping with our original plans and also not squicky to you. It seems to be a very delicate area.
From the top of my head ... a personal message from Haruhi to Kyon written directly somewhere in the book (or on a separate note between the pages) that makes Kyon realize that it's not just some random task that Haruhi dropped on him to keep him busy, combined with Kyon genuinely missing her, to give him motivation to succeed?
Nagato observing the mental processes of Kyon from across the country sounds implausible to me; that would kind of negate the need to have alien interfaces at North High in the first place. I would try to find an angle where Nagato is observing Haruhi's attempts to establish connection with Kyon and ask/tell him something about that.
On the whole, there should probably be more instances of Kyon doing the exercises during the normal events of the day, to show that he's motivated and working on it.
Kinda late for this (two word explanation: kinda hoping to sit out this round of forum drama), but a very small bit of C&C for Brian nevertheless...
QuoteIt's not like Haruhi hasn't shown increasing maturity as time has gone on -- really, I have to confess that my greater annoyance is that I finally established a plan for a Brigade activity that wasn't crazy, only to find out I couldn't even participate. It's fairly rare when my ideas provide much for the Brigade, but not even being there to see the results?
There's... something just a bit off about that one, stylistically. It's in no way necessary to reword, but it seems to me like "established a plan for" and "provide much for the Brigade" might be reworded to use some different words.
I can sort of put my finger on one interesting possibility for what Tsuruya-san was about to say in her scene, but not quite. Curious to see if my guess is going to be correct. (It probably won't, it's already established that I have a talent for reading things out of other people's stuff that they never intended.)
QuoteConsidering the annoyance of our transfers....
I assume that refers to transferring from train to train (to bus)? Anyhow, it could be clarified along the lines of "annoyance of having to {transfer / transfer to a different train / change trains} every so often" / "annoyance of having to transfer every so often, dragging our luggage onto a different train"... (it just took me a second to parse your original version which just said 'transfers', making me pause and have to think 'what transfers?').
Note: my rewordings are quite possibly rubbish. I'm throwing out five of them at a time in an attempt to be constructive, while still making it clear that I'm not actually insisting you do anything with my comment if you don't want to.
QuoteBeing aware of it being a dream while I'm in it -- I'm so stunned by my success that I exclaim, "I did it!" just like an ancient Grecian philosopher leaping naked from his bath in realization.
I'm as humiliated as I suspect he should have been to then almost immediately find myself tangled in my bedding, feeling an odd sense of almost complete disorientation, my limbs feeling out of place from where I feel they should have been. By the time I manage to get things sorted out and fumble my way to a sitting position, I see Aunt Mion peering around the door frame in consternation.
Yet another dissection to the waking-up process, based on some personal experience (I've spent more time typing all of the thoughts after this point than I have editing them, so feel free to glean whatever you find useful/interesting/suitable and completely ignore the rest):
- Stunned by his success, Kyon makes some sudden movement...
- ... then suddenly finds that he's moving his actual hand. (This is extremely confusing, as for a brief moment he is going to be aware of both his dream body and his actual body, in different positions, subject to different directions of gravity.)
- The moment he pays attention to his actual body, having no experience with this situation (the proper thing to do: pay attention to the dream body and go back into the dream!), the entire dream fades away and he finds himself awake in bed. When this happens to me, I'm finished waking by the time I've moved my hand more than there inches. But Kyon could easily have extremely mild sleepwalker tendencies (not saying he's actually a sleepwalker; as far as I remember there's a sort of gradual spectrum of physiologies, with people who actually sleepwalk on one extreme, and people who frequently experience sleep-paralysis on the other, and I'm firmly on the sleep paralysis end of the spectrum; so there's absolutely no reason Kyon couldn't be much closer to the other end). Thus Kyon winds up sitting up in his bed before he's fully oriented.
Oddly, in contradiction to what other people have said, I have no problem closing my eyes in a dream and then opening them again. (Although, that said, the five -- six if you count balance -- senses aren't the only way to perceive something in a dream; sometimes three-dimensional awareness of whatever I'm looking at is still present, sometimes not, but it's always very obvious that my eyes are closed and I'm not actually
seeing anything.) Probably this is because I have a large amount of mostly non-lucid (strangely enough) dreams where I'm able to arbitrarily make
anything I want appear, by closing my eyes tight, wishing for it, and then opening my eyes. I just don't realize that I'm dreaming while I do this stuff.
Another point I'd note (that I seem to be aware of, but not sufficiently to master it) is how you cause things to happen in a lucid dream. The dream is (I can only assume) happening in the same part of my brain that is used for mental imagery when I'm awake. Thus the proper way by which things appear in my dream is simply by picturing the modified situation (exactly the way you would picture a table if I asked you to picture a table) to the extent that the picture replaces whatever I was dreaming about previously. Making an effort to actually
change one thing into another never works for me because the process of changing involves picturing the initial state of the thing, then picturing it gradually changing, then the initial state comes to mind again, which causes the change to revert, then I get frustrated and lose lucidity...
Regarding the heightened realism of a lucid dream state, the one or two times I've actually been lucid enough to experience it... it's
very odd. Essentially, the dream created an object which is exactly what I would
expect such an object to look like. (And because you expect it to be incredibly detailed and realistic... well, you perceive it as incredibly detailed and realistic.) However, once I wake up and actually look around, it becomes obvious that my brain's memory of whatever I was looking at... well, it wasn't exactly inaccurate, but on some level it wasn't anything like my waking perception. The trope I would invoke to describe it is Reality is Unrealistic (i.e. to put it in other words, a lucid dream, if you allow it to, seems able to trigger your brain's
what I'm looking at is real response far more intensely than waking life; conversely, a lucid or non-lucid dream could just as easily be perceived as low-fidelity and obviously just built of faded mental images of real experiences).
(This -- extremely personal -- view of mine is slightly at odds with Haruhi deciding that
this Kyon is real because he did the maid costume trick. No problem, because there's another determining factor given how you've written the scene -- given her comments, Haruhi is apparently able to control the actions of those characters which are just figments of her imagination, but obviously unable to control Kyon.)
sarsaparilla may well disagree with my assessments.
As noted, I
suck at lucid dreaming, and this is the perspective my comments above come from. This is just my personal experience with the matter, which may be somehow unusual/inaccurate/otherwise not useful, but I hope you find it interesting.
This is where I'd put a list of encouraging notes on what I liked about this chapter, but unfortunately I'd have to take sides in the whole "Kyon's mental processes were adjusted by Haruhi" thing. I liked this chapter, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next (even with the Hinamizawa stuff the pacing -- prior to Brian's hasty edit, see below -- works well at getting the plot to the point where things start to get really interesting), but I think you can understand why I want to
carefully consider the issue before I can say something meaningful about it.
I would caution that, given the above discussion, it might be good to sort out what the rules are regarding how Kyon and Haruhi are able to affect each other's experience in the shared dream. (Fortunately, the whole "what sort of reality would the contents of a shared dream even possess?" issue strikes me as a very interesting and legitimate philosophical question worth raising in a story, rather than some minefield of squick potential.)
*sees sarsaparilla post a comment*
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 03:22:59 PM
So, what can be used, then? Anything that gives Kyon a strong motivation to succeed with the task. That can even happen while inside a dream, some people have found lucidity when confronted by a threatening situation in a dream, then realizing the fact and subverting the threat by taking control of the dream. In the end it doesn't matter what it is as long as Kyon really, really wants to succeed.
Okay, so regarding this comment and Brian's pacing after the edit. Given what sars has said, I really can't see how Kyon would have trouble staying lucid once he knows Haruhi is there in the dream with him. I also see no problem with Kyon becoming lucid on his own, repeatedly, and then making some stupid mistake because he, as noted, isn't actually motivated enough to do anything in the dream. ("Okay... I'm lucid... this is weird... yeah, whatever, I don't really care all that much.") I can see how the final version of the chapter might become some complicated dance such as:
- Kyon dreams he's in Hinamizawa with Koizumi, becomes lucid, accidentally wakes up.
- Kyon goes back to sleep, dreams he's in the clubroom, becomes lucid again, creates tea for himself, gets bored (exactly like in the real-life clubroom) as he can't follow through with his excessively complex idea of causing Asahina to appear and can't think of anything else to try, loses lucidity and spends the rest of the night dreaming about some nonsense. (Happened to me dozens of times.) Maybe (not at all essential) Haruhi could even show up, start shouting at him that he's dreaming, but he isn't able to comprehend her (Haruhi could show up in some garbled fashion).
- Maybe some scene of waking-life stuff to get Kyon to the following night -- this paces things out a little with all the dreaming that's going on. (If we go with the "Haruhi contacted Kyon while he wasn't lucid", and you figure out a reasonable way for Haruhi to help Kyon, this would be the logical point for Haruhi's powers to activate.) EDIT: and given sars' second comment, this would probably be the point for Kyon to get serious about doing his exercises. Previously he might have been just mildly curious/slightly exasperated at his assignment.
- The next night, Kyon goes to sleep, becomes lucid in the clubroom again. Realizing he's dreaming, he doesn't try anything ambitious and just attempts the simple "rub your hands to stabilize the dream" stuff, and just as he's about to try creating the tea again... Haruhi bursts in, and as he realizes that Haruhi has been trying to get into his dream all along, he now has plenty of motivation to pay attention. (And there's that much more righteous justification in dressing Haruhi in the maid uniform since she's the one who interrupted him from making tea :-)
So, this is just one possible way to structure things, though. (One upside is that it ends the chapter in exactly the same state as the existing version.) In this outline, Kyon becomes lucid twice in one night... completely on his own (which is more-or-less plausible if he doesn't have any preconceived notion that he
can't do it), and once the next night (possibly with some as-yet-undefined assistance from Haruhi; possibly due to the exercises he's been doing).
Anyhow, I hope you can mine the above feedback for a useful thought or two...
To Sarsaparilla:
Which exercises?
I only have the reality-check and recording his dreams included (which I do not see how he could work on through the day). Please remember that you are an experienced lucid dreamer, and the rest of us do not have your experience/familiarity. If you have ideas of things that Kyon can actually work on throughout the day, then they can be worked into the narrative while Kyon is watching over the children.
Regarding Haruhi leaving a note/Yuki commenting on Haruhi's behaviors, that's dependent on Hal's approval, since he's handling that half of the story. I will ask him his thoughts.
I don't personally know that the idea of a note telling him to do it would genuinely motivate Kyon that much. She told him in person, so it's difficult to see how she could have even more bearing.
Perhaps the obliquely referenced 'important files' on Kyon's phone will actually suffice for the final step. I can portray him with mild interest, and then genuine motivation once he recovers it and checks that his images are still intact (a false reveal that it's actually not a copy of the Mikuru folder, but pictures of the brigade/Haruhi). That would tie in with him recovering it from his cousins and hiding it from their reach, and also allow me to try and allude to his motivation without directly stating it (despite his denials in the final scene).
Arakawa: I will reply to your comments shortly.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 04:05:03 PM
I only have the reality-check and recording his dreams included (which I do not see how he could work on through the day). Please remember that you are an experienced lucid dreamer, and the rest of us do not have your experience/familiarity. If you have ideas of things that Kyon can actually work on throughout the day, then they can be worked into the narrative while Kyon is watching over the children.
Actually, you
already have something in your chapter that ties into the lucid dreaming thing
brilliantly:
Quote
My blank stare speaks volumes, so the woman clicks her tongue and clarifies, "Mindfulness in all things, Kyon-kun!"
I can't even begin to guess what that's supposed to mean. I suppose I'll have plenty of time to think about it, though.
"Mindfulness in all things," Aunt Rika reiterates. "When you get to Rena-chan's, after she and Yurie-chan have made you tea, be sure to ask for her for a real axe -- not that billhook she's always trying to use. That makes it easier to chop -- choki, choki!" she concludes, making a 'chopping' sound, either in excitement or to be cute.
It's slightly unconventional, but Kyon trying to just work on his mindfulness (and there's dozens of well-known exercises to do that) would quite plausibly help with the lucid dreaming aspect of things. Given that you don't specify which book he's reading (so it could easily be made out to contain similar advice), and you're free to take liberties with the specific details of the subject... well, I'd be tempted.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 04:05:03 PM
Which exercises?
I'm not an expert on that aspect in particular as I don't need anything like that, but I believe that the recommended way to approach lucid dreaming (past keeping a dream diary, whose purpose is again motivation, to make you pay attention to your dreams) is to take some particular reality check, like that 'closing mouth and breathing' (although I might choose another one), and then repeat it at regular intervals throughout the day. If you don't condition your mind to do that regularly during your waking hours, it certainly won't remember to do it while you're dreaming.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PM
a lucid dream, if you allow it to, seems able to trigger your brain's what I'm looking at is real response far more intensely than waking life; conversely, a lucid or non-lucid dream could just as easily be perceived as low-fidelity and obviously just built of faded mental images of real experiences
The 'more real than reality' effect is something that I have noticed myself. However, there's more to it than just recycled real experiences. In a lucid dream I'm able to experience emotions and sensations that are permanently locked away from me while awake; thus, I don't have any real world experience on which to base those sensations, and they're still available, sometimes with intensity that gets close to sensory overload.
But on the whole, comparing your experiences with mine makes one thing clear -- lucid dreams reflect the mind of the dreamer, and the rules of one person don't apply to another. You find creating easier than transmutating, for me it's the opposite. You can close your eyes and not see anything; I can't, and trying to do that is one of my two most basic reality checks (the other is flying which I can always do in a dream just by stretching my arms on the sides like wings).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 04:17:30 PMI'm not an expert on that aspect in particular as I don't need anything like that, but I believe that the recommended way to approach lucid dreaming (past keeping a dream diary, whose purpose is again motivation, to make you pay attention to your dreams) is to take some particular reality check, like that 'closing mouth and breathing' (although I might choose another one), and then repeat it at regular intervals throughout the day. If you don't condition your mind to do that regularly during your waking hours, it certainly won't remember to do it while you're dreaming.
I think I'll continue using it.
I may be blunt due to the aforementioned lack of empathy I am experiencing at the moment:
It does come out that there is a lot of pressure from both you and Arakawa to ensure that Hal and I present lucid dreaming to your expectations. This is influencing the story substantially-- There may come a point where we simply choose to break with reality in favor of keeping the story a story, instead of thinly veiled research.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:10:31 PMActually, you already have something in your chapter that ties into the lucid dreaming thing brilliantly:
QuoteMy blank stare speaks volumes, so the woman clicks her tongue and clarifies, "Mindfulness in all things, Kyon-kun!"
It's slightly unconventional, but Kyon trying to just work on his mindfulness (and there's dozens of well-known exercises to do that) would quite plausibly help with the lucid dreaming aspect of things. Given that you don't specify which book he's reading (so it could easily be made out to contain similar advice), and you're free to take liberties with the specific details of the subject... well, I'd be tempted.
Very well. I will rework that scene to include his reflections on applying it to what he has so far learned. I believe that, plus the idea of him recovering his pictures of Haruhi should be sufficient to cover his learning the proper mindset and some motivation.
To address Arakawa's lengthier reply:
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMKinda late for this (two word explanation: kinda hoping to sit out this round of forum drama), but a very small bit of C&C for Brian nevertheless...
One wonders at the forum that does not contain drama.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMThere's... something just a bit off about that one, stylistically. It's in no way necessary to reword, but it seems to me like "established a plan for" and "provide much for the Brigade" might be reworded to use some different words.
Will reword, then.
Quote from: revisionIt's fairly rare when my ideas make it to being genuinely considered by our chief, so achieving another 'win', and not even being there to see the results?
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMI can sort of put my finger on one interesting possibility for what Tsuruya-san was about to say in her scene, but not quite. Curious to see if my guess is going to be correct. (It probably won't, it's already established that I have a talent for reading things out of other people's stuff that they never intended.)
Tsuruya said exactly what she had intended to.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMQuoteConsidering the annoyance of our transfers....
I assume that refers to transferring from train to train (to bus)? Anyhow, it could be clarified along the lines of "annoyance of having to {transfer / transfer to a different train / change trains} every so often" / "annoyance of having to transfer every so often, dragging our luggage onto a different train"... (it just took me a second to parse your original version which just said 'transfers', making me pause and have to think 'what transfers?').
Yes; this is clumsy. Will reword again:
Quote from: revisionConsidering the annoyance of our transfers, moving from train to train....
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMNote: my rewordings are quite possibly rubbish. I'm throwing out five of them at a time in an attempt to be constructive, while still making it clear that I'm not actually insisting you do anything with my comment if you don't want to.
Yes; in a different state, I would appreciate this effort from you. I realize I should encourage this, because it is a constructive behavior on your part; I am simply not able to properly respect it for what it should be at this precise moment. The shortcoming is with my current perceptions, not your suggestions.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMYet another dissection to the waking-up process, based on some personal experience (I've spent more time typing all of the thoughts after this point than I have editing them, so feel free to glean whatever you find useful/interesting/suitable and completely ignore the rest):
As an interjection, that is actually drawn from what I believed to be a lucid dream of my own. Quite probably, given the explanations I am seeing here, I was mistaken, and it was merely dream. I have already revised it as per Sarsaparilla's objections.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMList of details about LD and how they could be worked into the story.
This level of detail becomes too technical and detracts from telling the story. While the information is interesting, and probably useful elsewhere, I cannot find a place for it here.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMThis is where I'd put a list of encouraging notes on what I liked about this chapter, but unfortunately I'd have to take sides in the whole "Kyon's mental processes were adjusted by Haruhi" thing. I liked this chapter, and I'm looking forward to seeing what happens next (even with the Hinamizawa stuff the pacing -- prior to Brian's hasty edit, see below -- works well at getting the plot to the point where things start to get really interesting), but I think you can understand why I want to carefully consider the issue before I can say something meaningful about it.
This is a lot of hulaballoo. The original intent was just to lampshade the fact that it's not reasonable to expect a normal person to pick things up this fast. It just happened that the excuse homed in on one of the things that squicked Sarsaparilla.
The detail is not at all important to the story beyond explaining that Kyon is capable now. In the revision, he achieves this on his own, because no form of mental 'assistance' can be provided without squick.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMI would caution that, given the above discussion, it might be good to sort out what the rules are regarding how Kyon and Haruhi are able to affect each other's experience in the shared dream. (Fortunately, the whole "what sort of reality would the contents of a shared dream even possess?" issue strikes me as a very interesting and legitimate philosophical question worth raising in a story, rather than some minefield of squick potential.)
Hal and I have been discussing this for several months at this point; we have a fairly solid plan, and my personal suspicion is that it will very, very quickly jump the rails and leave both you and Sarsaparilla very disappointed that we are not 'accurate' enough, in favor of actually telling the story we set out to. I only mention this to properly set expectations.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 20, 2011, 04:01:58 PMSo, this is just one possible way to structure things, though. (One upside is that it ends the chapter in exactly the same state as the existing version.) In this outline, Kyon becomes lucid twice in one night... completely on his own (which is more-or-less plausible if he doesn't have any preconceived notion that he can't do it), and once the next night (possibly with some as-yet-undefined assistance from Haruhi; possibly due to the exercises he's been doing).
Unfortunately, I'm actually quite satisfied with the final scene. Those are more extensive revisions than I believe the story actually needs.
I don't believe in offering gratitude when it's not genuine, but I do recognize and respect the effort that you and Sarsaparilla have put into your replies. I will most likely give you genuine thanks when I am capable of feeling such, as I believe you deserve it, despite my current incapability. But I won't pretend something I cannot currently feel.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 04:42:46 PM
But on the whole, comparing your experiences with mine makes one thing clear -- lucid dreams reflect the mind of the dreamer, and the rules of one person don't apply to another.
This point bears emphasis, I guess. While it's possible to write the way in which Haruhi and Kyon get to their dream in a more or a less "realistic" fashion (namely, there's a number of objective facts as to what sort of information they're likely to encounter on the topic, and to a much smaller extent there are a few issues of the actual physiology of sleeping and waking -- which vary from person to person to such an extent that it's sort of difficult to even be unrealistic about them), but once they're in the dream it's a question of psychology, and so more or less anything goes, independently of what other people claim is or isn't supposed to happen in a dream. And that's even before you bring Haruhi into the picture...
Thus anything to do with the mechanics of their dream, you can easily use as (an apparently slightly dangerous, but) a potentially extremely effective storytelling tool, since these mechanics can easily be considered to reflect their psychology and worldview on a very deep level.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 20, 2011, 04:42:46 PMYou find creating easier than transmutating, for me it's the opposite. You can close your eyes and not see anything; I can't, and trying to do that is one of my two most basic reality checks (the other is flying which I can always do in a dream just by stretching my arms on the sides like wings).
The mechanics of flying are for me so different from dream to dream that basing a reality check on them is essentially impossible :-(
The other divergence I have from sources which try to explain to me how my dreams 'should' work, is that in general I seem to have a working mental model of machines, computers, &c. Thus the famous "light switches don't work" reality check... doesn't ever apply to me. And far too many of my dreams involve sitting in front of a computer doing something, which requires the computer to behave in a consistent manner. In general, I find that even printed text works well if I defocus from seeing the actual letters and words and just perceive the meaning on the page directly. (*recalls a number of extremely surreal dreams where I dreamt that I was holding my smartphone, reading replies to my stuff from people on various forums*)
Now for Brian's response...
Quote
It does come out that there is a lot of pressure from both you and Arakawa to ensure that Hal and I present lucid dreaming to your expectations. This is influencing the story substantially-- There may come a point where we simply choose to break with reality in favor of keeping the story a story, instead of thinly veiled research.
In general, a bunch of what was brought up by me and sars seemed like it might strike you as vaguely neat to incorporate, if it didn't require such complicated changes to the story as planned. I'll keep bringing things up as they occur to me, though, since there's a slight chance that something might be both simple enough to include and apropos to the story.
As noted, your approach to things is perfectly valid. I'm slightly disappointed with myself for being unable to present my share of the feedback with the correct emphasis -- as just a pile of information which I thought might be relevant given the direction I thought the story was taking, that you and Hal are free to glean or ignore as you prefer.
Quote
Yes; in a different state, I would appreciate this effort from you. I realize I should encourage this, because it is a constructive behavior on your part; I am simply not able to properly respect it for what it should be at this precise moment. The shortcoming is with my current perceptions, not your suggestions.
...
I don't believe in offering gratitude when it's not genuine, but I do recognize and respect the effort that you and Sarsaparilla have put into your replies. I will most likely give you genuine thanks when I am capable of feeling such, as I believe you deserve it, despite my current incapability. But I won't pretend something I cannot currently feel.
As I think I said earlier, my emotions are to some extent permanently cut off from my psyche in a manner somewhat similar to what you describe, so for once I can relate to your state of mind directly as opposed to intellectually... and (skipping a lot of useless psychological ramblings on the matter) I'll just accept your thanks as being genuine, and wish you good luck with recovering into a more pleasant state of mind...
EDIT:
QuoteAs an interjection, that is actually drawn from what I believed to be a lucid dream of my own. Quite probably, given the explanations I am seeing here, I was mistaken, and it was merely dream. I have already revised it as per Sarsaparilla's objections.
The boundary between a lucid and an ordinary dream is extremely blurry, so convincing yourself that your experience was one or the other kind of thing based on our comments is probably unnecessary... Moreover, if you have a personal experience, that is far more solid as a starting point than research or forum advice, simply because you'll be aware of details in
your experience at a level such that we wouldn't ever be able to get across to you with respect to
our experiences... the part where Kyon sits up is entirely plausible (as explained, I believe that it's actually an issue of physiology relative to the sleepwalking...sleep-paralysis spectrum), and the fact that I have a completely contrasting experience, in the end, probably only highlights how much liberty you have with the matter.
Changelog:
Revised scene with Nagato on the phone; ideally this will not be squicky, as it no longer involves mental manipulation of any kind.
Revisted scene with Kyon cutting wood and carrying water; on Arakawa's suggestion turned it from a throwaway reference to philosophy into genuine insight into improving the habit of reality-checking.
Revised the scene with Kyon's missing phone to show Kyon's motivation/confidence in the process improving.
Revised Kyon waking up from lucid dream; he's now confused and tangled in his sheets, giving his aunt possibly more reasons to be amused when she looks at him.
Added a few bits to the final scene to try and make it a bit 'cuter'.
Will sleep now.
Edit: Attached old version accidentally. This is the correct one.
One last thing to add.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 04:54:21 PM
Hal and I have been discussing this for several months at this point; we have a fairly solid plan, and my personal suspicion is that it will very, very quickly jump the rails and leave both you and Sarsaparilla very disappointed that we are not 'accurate' enough, in favor of actually telling the story we set out to. I only mention this to properly set expectations.
In general, the further the story progresses, the less need there is to conform to real-world mechanics given Haruhi's involvement. Prior to their actually starting to work on the topic, there was a bunch of information I thought the characters might be likely to be aware of if they've researched the topic, so I pointed that out since it's fairly objective what sorts of
claims are commonly made about lucid dreaming. Until Haruhi shows up, we could conceivably argue back and forth about whether Kyon is experiencing a
realistic lucid dream or not given who he is as a person, since he's presumably dreaming independently of anything Haruhi is doing. But once Haruhi shows up, given that the content of a
shared dream somehow exists neither completely in Kyon's mind nor completely in Haruhi's, it's almost like they're just in some pocket universe which might follow lucid-dream-like rules because Haruhi wants it to (*looks at revised chapter*, in fact, in the latest revised version you basically lampshade the notion via Nagato actually being able to detect the space hosting the dream), but not necessarily be exactly like a lucid dream, or in some respects it might well be nothing like a lucid dream. I'd consider what happens after this chapter to depend much more on Haruhi's intent in starting this whole exercise than on research or anything like that.
I don't have any remarks to that version other than it seems to work in all respects. There's nothing to make me feel apprehensive. You may have taken some of my suggestions even more literally than I expected; as mentioned several times by now, this is an issue where there's a lot of personal variation.
At the moment I honestly don't know whether I should apologize for causing so much unnecessary work, and possibly having undue influence. I'm probably having an emotional lockdown as well; that's not unusual and will go away after a while anyway.
Umph. It occured to me during my nap why we have such a disconnect on this, Sarsaparilla. When one of my shards takes conscious control away from me-- That thing that squicks you is actually a constant fact of my mental state, and that's probably part of why I am not able to see it as 'squick' when it really disturbs you (and trying to would lead me to hating myself). Also why I include such things incidentally, and the concept of gestalting strikes me as 'neat' (it is in fact, a personal aspiration) instead of 'creepy'. I simply don't have that mental privacy that you so value.
Take now, when I 'wake up' after an episode and feel like an ass at what I did when my emotions were suppressed. I guess I was relatively constructive, but I wish I had been much, much more polite about it. Unfortunately, I have to accept what happens during these periods as my responsibility, since those are all parts of me.... Yes; not constructive to hate parts of myself. -_-
So, now that I'm capable, let me assure you both (Arakawa, Sarsaparilla) that I'm feeling guilty, and grateful beyond words that you both stuck with it and offered constructive criticism anyway.
Arakawa: Your detailed suggestions were welcome, and I wish I had been better able to receive them.
Sarsaparilla: Your insight into the details of lucid dreaming is fascinating, even if I may not have a use for them all. In this instance, your influence has not yet been undue, as it all revolved around what was intended to be a trivial detail (and somehow, was not at all trivial).
I don't speak for Hal, naturally; I expect he's gleaned an idea or two from this as well.
Anyway. Thank you again for both your comments and forbearance.
Edit: Clarifying.
Hmm... I've been thinking personally as to why I don't share sarsaparilla's squick regarding mental modification. Obviously it's not at all for the same reasons as Brian... but in the end, I see it as some very fine gradations of acceptability, where sars sees the issue as completely black and white.
/me ponders, of all things, a Touhou/Madoka fic to explore the question (whether mental modification is better seen as horrifying or empowering) in greater detail. Only marginally more likely to happen than a 'Spring of Drowned Man in Panda Suit' fic, though.
Unrelated question for Brian: not entirely sure (my Internet searches didn't bring anything up) -- by gestalting, I can only guess you mean the notion of two separate consciousnesses becoming integrated into one?
Or more than two -- but yes.
Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2011, 09:03:37 PM
Or more than two -- but yes.
Interesting. In the general sense of, say, two unrelated people combining into one, I'd say that might be vaguely squicky from my perspective, due to the fact that it might be extremely difficult to see how the process could be reversed. Certainly not a decision to be taken lightly. (Extremely shallow realizations of the notion such as the Fusion Dance in Dragonball aside.) When the shards being combined were originally the same person, though, such objections are probably beside the point...
EDIT:
I only just now realized that novels 10/11 had the latter case of gestalting applied to most of the cast, including Haruhi (whose awareness of the fact was somehow suppressed), with the merging of the alternate versions of each person from two timelines. Not to mention the whole "Haruhi exists as two people -- herself and Yasumi" bit, which is a can of worms the fanbase is probably going to be occupied with for a long time...
Why hello there! I apologize if i didn't present myself yet in the appropriate forum section, if this is necessary. I'll do it shortly, after deploying my payl- I mean, giving my bit of C&C. I came here specifically for this, after all.
First: Haruhi describes Closed Space in the first paragraph (ch1) like she knows it very well, and experiences it when she sleep, as a dream. This contradicts with canon - Not only she's scared and surprised because she never saw it before in Melancholy, but Koizumi, in many occasions (the start of Disappearance comes to mind because i watched it recently) states that Closed Spaces now occur only when she's scared by a nightmare. She never experiences them directly in canon, except for that one time with Kyon; she'd never say they're fun to watch during her dreams because they're fueled by bad dreams anyways.
Second: some lines seem taken verbatim from canon (for example, "If there's something on your mind, spit it out!" in ch1 looks very similar to a line in Live Alive, i think there was another one but i forgot to note it down) - It's probably to give a throwback to canon, to make it feel more familiar, but to me it just feels cheap. You could do without. Sorry if this sounds too harsh. "Kyon-kun, phone!" in ch2 was cutely awesome, tho.
Third: Haruhi's characterization feels a tad bit off in the first chapter, apart from what i mentioned already, she does start a bit harsh, reminding me of the earlier, less sociable Haruhi of Melancholy. We're between Indignation and Dissociation, so i'd expect her to be a bit less tsuntsun. The inner monologue is perfectly fine, it's the words she says to Kyon that sound too harsh. Maybe it's just me, that came to expect a leveler Haruhi after being accustomed with K:BDH. Damn cross-canon contamination!
Also, from the time spent with Kyon's little sister and her comment on the kid when she first met her, I can infer she likes kids. I'm not sure about babysitting, but for her to have a so negative opinion of it sounds weird.
Fourth: You sometimes repeat stuff that's quite obvious if you know the canon, and adds nothing to the narration. I'll try to track the instances of this down, but for now i remember only one: "The more mature girl (even though they are the same age)" when talking about Miyokichi in ch2 could be changed in "The more mature-looking girl", or something to that effect.
Fifth: Plain old fumbled phrase, ch2: "I'm sure my cousins probably can't read the more complex kanji of the title anyway". Either he's sure, or he thinks that they can't probably read that. You can't be "sure" "probably", at least not if you're Kyon. Maybe Haruhi could...
Now something that is not critique :D :
First: What if Haruhi actually succeeds in doing a dream shared with Kyon? Koizumi will have a field day. If his predictions are anything to go by (and i hope Kyon finds a way to patch it), that way, that supernatural aspect will surely become commonplace. The universe will be on the verge of being toast once again. Yare Yare...
Second: Can i consider this a prequel to K:BDH? Pretty Please? You swapped Mion with Rika as the official Kei-wife, is the change plot-important?
Edit:I just finished the second chapter.
Blazing hilarious. I can imagine the scene. I can't imagine Haruhi slack-jawed in surprise, tho.
Kyon's "No, " is the most epic piece of dialogue i read in a while. Thanks for the read.
Quote from: Agasa on November 21, 2011, 07:35:01 PMWhy hello there! I apologize if i didn't present myself yet in the appropriate forum section, if this is necessary. I'll do it shortly, after deploying my payl- I mean, giving my bit of C&C. I came here specifically for this, after all.
Welcome; Dracos will be around to
bitegreet you shortly.
Quote from: Agasa on November 21, 2011, 07:35:01 PMFourth: You sometimes repeat stuff that's quite obvious if you know the canon, and adds nothing to the narration. I'll try to track the instances of this down, but for now i remember only one: "The more mature girl (even though they are the same age)" when talking about Miyokichi in ch2 could be changed in "The more mature-looking girl", or something to that effect.
I think it's clear that Miyokichi actually is more mature, but that segment was slated for some minor revisions, so I will take another look at it when I get home tonight. I don't personally have an issue with restating the canon to a slight degree in the opening chapters, or when reintroducing an element from the novels that hasn't been brought on-screen yet. My major issue is that giving Miyokichi less attention right there makes her later involvement feel abrupt and out-of-the-blue.
Further, she doesn't have a greatly significant role in the story as planned, so it seemed fair enough. I'm not trying to dismiss this critique out of hand, though. Perhaps when I go over it again later, I will see that I've overdone it. If so, I can probably make the observations more relevant by using them to bring Kyon's thoughts back around to Haruhi, which makes the last-minute remembering-the-book part feel more integrated instead of tacked on.
That might be a good compromise.
Also, as a note to myself, I need to finish revising to address Kyon's reasons for bringing up 'that dream' with Haruhi in his PoV.
Quote from: Agasa on November 21, 2011, 07:35:01 PMFifth: Plain old fumbled phrase, ch2: "I'm sure my cousins probably can't read the more complex kanji of the title anyway". Either he's sure, or he thinks that they can't probably read that. You can't be "sure" "probably", at least not if you're Kyon. Maybe Haruhi could...
Oops. I can see how this got missed; I will make a note to address that, too; thanks for catching that error.
Quote from: Agasa on November 21, 2011, 07:35:01 PMSecond: Can i consider this a prequel to K:BDH? Pretty Please? You swapped Mion with Rika as the official Kei-wife, is the change plot-important?
I guess you could? I can't say I would, but I won't stop you -- there's no intentional ties between this story and K:BDH beyond the personalities of the cousins; there's no polyamory here because it would not serve the plot. In fact, chapter two does specifically state that Kyon's 'aunts' all have their own husbands, so it'd take some doing (I think). The main thing is, because they're more normalized, Kyon's mother also has a less antagonistic relationship with Keiichi (note the 'An-chan' she greets him with).
Right; thanks for the commentary. I need to take another look at the chapter over all and make sure my last round of revisions are smoothly/organically integrated, so I'll probably have yet another revision out later today. (This is a bad habit I've gotten from work, where the engineers will give us as many as 27 revisions of the same software before it's 'done'.) I greatly appreciate the time you took to leave these comments.
And the robots you faced. ;)
I'll reply to the points that apply to my chapter:
1) She actually -isn't- frightened during the Melancholy dream; Kyon even comments on it directly: "How come you don't look anxious at all?" The primary thing she shows in the Melancholy dream is curiosity and a measure of excitement - although whether that's simply because of the nature of the dream, the fact that she's conscious to experience it, or because Kyon is there to share it with her is open to debate.
And as far as further closed space formation goes, Koizumi does mention that it occurs mostly during the hours where she's asleep in Disappearance, but that doesn't rule out the possibility of her glimpsing the spaces in her dreams anyway. Most people have several dreams in a single night, so it's possible that a nightmare might spawn a closed space that she then sees in a later dream on the same night.
I'm not even going to try to argue that it's canon that Haruhi would be aware of closed spaces through her dreams, but canon certainly doesn't rule out the possibility that it could happen.
2) If this is the case, it's purely unintentional; I usually have to look back at the novels to get specific wording in scenes that I'm trying to reference. That being said, I'm not particularly concerned if there's some overlap here.
3) Haruhi is a bit harder-edged than might be expected, but she's also nowhere near as severe as she is early in the novels. Part of the goal of the story is to show her growing, and she needs a point to grow -from- as well as a point to grow -to-. And yes, K:BDH!Haruhi may be coloring perceptions a bit there; while she's a fun character, she's a long way from (and a lot softer than) her canon counterpart.
4) and 5) are more related to chapter 2, so I'll let Brian tackle those as appropriate.
Some belated remarks:
QuoteIt's not like Haruhi hasn't shown increasing maturity as time has gone on -- really, I have to confess that my greater annoyance is that I finally established a plan for a Brigade activity that wasn't crazy, only to find out I couldn't even participate. It's fairly rare when my ideas make it to being genuinely considered by our chief, so achieving another 'win', and not even being there to see the results?
Does the closing apostrophe on "win" go inside the comma?
Quote"T-Tsuruya-san," Asahina-san protests, her face flushing crimson.
Aha, very brilliant.
Quote"True story!" Tsuruya-san adds, waggling her eyebrows. Then, releasing the other girl's arm, she leans closer to me and in a conspiratorial whisper adds, "Mikuru-chan stole my pillows in her sleep~!"
Mikuru.
QuoteA morose sigh escapes my lips instead of a triumphant cry when we crest the hill, and the school gates appear before us. Yuki blinks at me, but says nothing -- so I offer her a mild smile and a shrug.
Nagato.
QuoteAunt Mion pokes her head through the doorway as I blearily sit up and blink the sleep from my eyes. She can't help but chuckle at the sight of her children -- the twins, Naota and Makoto -- as they manage to drag my unresisting form clear of the futon. Matsuri, Aunt Rika's daughter, is the one who's glomped onto my leg with her best attempt at a death-grip, her dusty purple hair shadowing her eyes as she looks up at me.
Oh god, the twins both have twins. What is wrong with this town?
I admit, the passages with all the cousins about are a bit difficult to parse, if only because I'm not as intimately familiar with them. Being dumped with all the kids certainly seems fitting, but it also means that the unfamiliar reader should make notes, or a family tree, to make sure they can keep track of the children.
QuoteShaking my head, I listen to the sounds of the other cousins in the distant reaches of Aunt Mion's home-- It's huge, but still nothing compared to Tsuruya-san's home. The thump of approaching steps warns me of an imminent attack, so I brace myself.
Repetition of "home".
Overall, while the chapter is quite readable and logically constructed, I'm a bit concerned with how well the Hinamizawa crowd tie in with dreaming. They form a backdrop for Kyon's efforts---a detailed, engaging backdrop---but as yet, they don't contribute anything of value to his efforts save to give Kyon a reason not to be in Haruhi's proximity. The contribution is functional but not thematic, if that makes sense.
That said, I can see how trying to give them a thematic contribution might feel shoehorned and not be worth the effort to pull off. Nevertheless, knowing the diverse and varied
Higurashi cast, I can't help but wonder what insights they would have into dreaming. Kyon isn't the type to ask for that much help, but he
is lugging this book around. He's already been noticed trying to do a reality check.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PM
Some belated remarks:
Always appreciated!
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMDoes the closing apostrophe on "win" go inside the comma?
Y...yes, it does. That's right; I checked this with the Chicago Manual of Style last time.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMQuote"T-Tsuruya-san," Asahina-san protests, her face flushing crimson.
Aha, very brilliant.
Excellent. :)
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PM
Mikuru.
[...]
Nagato.
Oops-- Thanks for catching those.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMOh god, the twins both have twins. What is wrong with this town?
In a nutshell, I'm poking fun at this anime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futakoi_Alternative
And otherwise having a laugh at fictional genetics in general. >_>
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMI admit, the passages with all the cousins about are a bit difficult to parse, if only because I'm not as intimately familiar with them. Being dumped with all the kids certainly seems fitting, but it also means that the unfamiliar reader should make notes, or a family tree, to make sure they can keep track of the children.
Okay, this is partially intentional. I want it to be daunting to a new reader, but not enough that they give up. I want Matsuri, Rika, and Yurie to stand out and the rest to pretty much jumble together. Shutaro gets his 'girls are icky' jokes, and Mion's a presense, too, but only those first three are really going to be important.
If someone's familiar with Higurashi, then that's a bonus -- but I also don't want it to get to the point where this is more crossover than cameo. Thus, Yurie and Matsuri's screentime is most important; I'll touch on the goal I'm aiming for with Rika's character shortly. Extra bonus for anyone familiar with the cousins from other stories, too -- but not required reading for this story.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMQuoteShaking my head, I listen to the sounds of the other cousins in the distant reaches of Aunt Mion's home-- It's huge, but still nothing compared to Tsuruya-san's home. The thump of approaching steps warns me of an imminent attack, so I brace myself.
Repetition of "home".
Second will be 'house'.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMOverall, while the chapter is quite readable and logically constructed, I'm a bit concerned with how well the Hinamizawa crowd tie in with dreaming. They form a backdrop for Kyon's efforts---a detailed, engaging backdrop---but as yet, they don't contribute anything of value to his efforts save to give Kyon a reason not to be in Haruhi's proximity. The contribution is functional but not thematic, if that makes sense.
Right-- I'm okay with that for now; at this point, they're just his family on vacation, and are there mostly to provide the afformentioned backdrop. Some background elements may move to the fore in later scenes.
Quote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMThat said, I can see how trying to give them a thematic contribution might feel shoehorned and not be worth the effort to pull off. Nevertheless, knowing the diverse and varied Higurashi cast, I can't help but wonder what insights they would have into dreaming. Kyon isn't the type to ask for that much help, but he is lugging this book around. He's already been noticed trying to do a reality check.
Well, it wasn't my original intent, but Rika can serve as a mentor role for Kyon; the bit where she reinforces his reality checks seems to map to that pretty well, and it's also fitting considering her training, etc.
My greater worry about giving the Hinamizawa crew (and the Higurashi cast, specifically) more screen-time is that it moves it from 'bonus material' to 'required reading'. However, if I use just Rika, since I think her insight should be the most profound anyway ... that may work, and already be foreshadowed just by the 'wise shrine-maiden' bit. I'm not sure; I'll have to see where I am in chapter four, which I'm not even worried about outlining at this point. :p
Thanks for the feedback; I'll try and get those other revisions I was looking at yesterday (courtesy of Agasa) finished soon. :)
One of those two "home" could be a "mansion" instead. I'm curious too about if the Higurashi characters are just to give a cozy friendly backdrop and a reason for Kyon to be separated from the Brigade, or have a more organic role in the plot. I can bring to mind two of them that have experience with dreaming, in a sense, (Satoshi and Satoko) but there's the risk of major squick even for me, and i'm not easy to squick.
Quote from: Brian on November 22, 2011, 03:06:29 PM
Okay, this is partially intentional. I want it to be daunting to a new reader, but not enough that they give up. I want Matsuri, Rika, and Yurie to stand out and the rest to pretty much jumble together. Shutaro gets his 'girls are icky' jokes, and Mion's a presense, too, but only those first three are really going to be important.
After one full and one cursory re-read the only new name that I even recognize is Matsuri, but that's just because of my specific disability (I need a
lot of time before I have a sufficiently detailed mental model of a person so that s/he stops being part of the impersonal background). So, you shouldn't use this as an overall measure of success, but as a single point of observation that Matsuri is indeed standing out to a sufficient degree (so that even I could pick it up). If you want, I can keep track of when other non-Haruhiverse characters cross my recognition threshold, and it can be used as the worst-case scenario for somebody who's very slow on the intake in this respect (and not familiar with Higurashi).
By the way, congrats on posting the first chapter to ffn, guys!
... although I'm not sure how ironic it is that Brian is being led to (indirectly) put material on that site again.
I remember mentioning to someone in real life I was trying out the fanfiction thing.
"Wait, on ff.net? Ugh."
"Well, true, it is like the YouTube of fanfiction, the quality's all over the place."
*person shakes head and points out the large proportion of Harry Potter slashfics -- i.e. it's worse than YouTube in their opinion*
"Meh, I'm too lazy to get actual hosting."
Anyhow, digressions aside, I noticed that the revised first chapter is up on ffn, and I felt like pointing it out.
(And, Hal, remember that my yandere criticism is always hugely overblown; the awesomeness quotient in all revisions of the chapter was pretty awesome. Yeah, not sure if I could phrase that better. Consider this post to be in the style of an ffn review.)
Quote from: Brian on November 22, 2011, 03:06:29 PMQuote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMI admit, the passages with all the cousins about are a bit difficult to parse, if only because I'm not as intimately familiar with them. Being dumped with all the kids certainly seems fitting, but it also means that the unfamiliar reader should make notes, or a family tree, to make sure they can keep track of the children.
Okay, this is partially intentional. I want it to be daunting to a new reader, but not enough that they give up. I want Matsuri, Rika, and Yurie to stand out and the rest to pretty much jumble together. Shutaro gets his 'girls are icky' jokes, and Mion's a presense, too, but only those first three are really going to be important.
If someone's familiar with Higurashi, then that's a bonus -- but I also don't want it to get to the point where this is more crossover than cameo. Thus, Yurie and Matsuri's screentime is most important; I'll touch on the goal I'm aiming for with Rika's character shortly. Extra bonus for anyone familiar with the cousins from other stories, too -- but not required reading for this story.
Experiment successful in that respect, then; Matsuri in particular just refused to be ignored.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on November 21, 2011, 08:09:59 PMThat said, I can see how trying to give them a thematic contribution might feel shoehorned and not be worth the effort to pull off. Nevertheless, knowing the diverse and varied Higurashi cast, I can't help but wonder what insights they would have into dreaming. Kyon isn't the type to ask for that much help, but he is lugging this book around. He's already been noticed trying to do a reality check.
Well, it wasn't my original intent, but Rika can serve as a mentor role for Kyon; the bit where she reinforces his reality checks seems to map to that pretty well, and it's also fitting considering her training, etc.
My greater worry about giving the Hinamizawa crew (and the Higurashi cast, specifically) more screen-time is that it moves it from 'bonus material' to 'required reading'. However, if I use just Rika, since I think her insight should be the most profound anyway ... that may work, and already be foreshadowed just by the 'wise shrine-maiden' bit. I'm not sure; I'll have to see where I am in chapter four, which I'm not even worried about outlining at this point. :p
Thanks for the feedback; I'll try and get those other revisions I was looking at yesterday (courtesy of Agasa) finished soon. :)
That's a fair point and a fair solution if you choose to pursue it. Rika definitely seems to be in the right position to give, er, some unconventional guidance.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 22, 2011, 04:02:58 PMAfter one full and one cursory re-read the only new name that I even recognize is Matsuri, but that's just because of my specific disability (I need a lot of time before I have a sufficiently detailed mental model of a person so that s/he stops being part of the impersonal background). So, you shouldn't use this as an overall measure of success, but as a single point of observation that Matsuri is indeed standing out to a sufficient degree (so that even I could pick it up). If you want, I can keep track of when other non-Haruhiverse characters cross my recognition threshold, and it can be used as the worst-case scenario for somebody who's very slow on the intake in this respect (and not familiar with Higurashi).
Okay, that works fine for me; I'd like to know when (and if) these characters have an impact/register. Certainly, I don't want to overplay the importance of the ones who don't have significant roles.... Thank you; I appreciate that. :)
Quote from: Muphrid on November 22, 2011, 05:34:19 PMExperiment successful in that respect, then; Matsuri in particular just refused to be ignored.
Matsuri is potentially annoying, but she's meant to be (in a somewhat endearing, very childish way). I do want to make sure I don't go overboard and have readers gritting their teeth in exasperation when she's onscreen, though, so if she's fine where she is, that'll work too.
...she's not too annoying, is she? :x
Quote from: Muphrid on November 22, 2011, 05:34:19 PMThat's a fair point and a fair solution if you choose to pursue it. Rika definitely seems to be in the right position to give, er, some unconventional guidance.
I'll try and use that in future chapters, then; glad it seems to be working. Thanks greatly, Muphrid.
To me, Matsuri's fine. Probably annoying or uncomfortable to Kyon, but funny to read because she's ultimately harmless.
Quick follow up (and thanks, by the way, Muprhid, for that feedback); on the offhand chance anyone is taking grammar notes from this thread, I typoed a response to Muphrid on his question of the proper placement of commas with regard to single-quotes.
The correct usage should put the comma inside quotation, not outside; I corrected it and then gave the wrong response in-thread; mea culpa. >.<
And after the joy that holiday insanity provides, a third chapter is ready for perusal.
A major concern here is length; the chapter ended up running a lot longer than expected, and while I don't think there's a lot of fat to be trimmed (it's just covering a lot of ground), please point out anything that you think could be snipped without losing too much.
Little typo: "I leWt out a sharp sigh at that" should probably be "I let out a sharp sigh at that".
Nothing else, either you're a good typist or i'm an awful proofreader.
Quote from: Halbarad on January 14, 2012, 04:41:34 PM
And after the joy that holiday insanity provides, a third chapter is ready for perusal.
A major concern here is length; the chapter ended up running a lot longer than expected, and while I don't think there's a lot of fat to be trimmed (it's just covering a lot of ground), please point out anything that you think could be snipped without losing too much.
It is pretty long. I like long chapters, but this one really seemed to go on and on and on and on. I don't think there's much that can be cut, it's just the way it worked out. Otherwise I liked it and didn't see any particular typos. Haruhi's internal musings are interesting, a little more interesting than Kyon's so far. Maybe it's because I'm missing the crossover references, dunno.
If you felt you had to cut anything I'd suggest Haruhi talking about the second day out. You even have her say that it almost isn't worth talking about, it kind of just boils down to "Koizumi is being a killjoy, Yuki was in a hurry about something, and I'm bored and wonder how Kyon is doing." and it just seems a little oddly verbose in getting that information across. I did think that the Haruhi wanting to try and cross the nightingale floor was cute though.
The dreams are of course the bread and butter here and I can't see where you'd be able to cut any out without lessening the overall impact. Sorry I can't offer anything other than that.
I didn't find the chapter the least bit too long, as the scenes were interesting enough to hold my attention all the way through. Two passages that I found especially engaging were the interaction between Haruhi and Yuki on the first trip, starting with the humorous contrast between their personalities and then getting progressively more serious and significant; and the variations on the dream SOS Brigade where Haruhi processed her hidden fears and desires through several retakes of the same basic premise.
I got a feeling that there must have been references to something (and probably many different somethings) all over the chapter, but I couldn't recognize any.
Some specific observations:
Haruhi going to the train station but not revealing herself to Kyon feels slightly OOC, as I'm used to seeing her charge into each situation head on regardless of circumstances. I would have expected her to either consider going there but deciding against it, or going there and be seen, coming up with some excuse for it.
Concerning leaving one's body in a lucid dream, my own experience is that it's rather easy to leave the body, essentially becoming a disembodied point-of-view and even seeing your body from the outside; but at the same time it's impossible to return back to the same body. You can forcibly occupy the same space that the body does but it doesn't merge the two of you any more than locating yourself inside a brick wall makes you become the wall. Thus, I've found it much easier to create myself a new body when needed. Though, as already mentioned several times, your mileage may vary a lot, depending on the mind of the person dreaming. (Edit: on the whole, the lucid dream sequences were very well done and felt completely plausible, this OOB thing was the only (and very minor) detail that I even felt a need to comment on, so kudos for doing the research even if you've said that it's largely beside the point of the story!)
Do people really say "crossing my arms under my breasts"? To me, it comes through as an odd and awkward way to express the issue when just "crossing my arms" would suffice, unless the person in question has so saggy breasts that it's indeed feasible to put stuff 'under' them. This phrase is used twice in the chapter.
Quote from: Grahf on January 15, 2012, 03:53:09 AM
If you felt you had to cut anything I'd suggest Haruhi talking about the second day out. You even have her say that it almost isn't worth talking about, it kind of just boils down to "Koizumi is being a killjoy, Yuki was in a hurry about something, and I'm bored and wonder how Kyon is doing." and it just seems a little oddly verbose in getting that information across. I did think that the Haruhi wanting to try and cross the nightingale floor was cute though.
I tried to keep this relatively short, but it seemed like cutting this down to an aside at the beginning of a dream sequence would interrupt the flow of the chapter - it'd basically be skipping from one dream directly into another, with a small aside between.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 15, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
I didn't find the chapter the least bit too long, as the scenes were interesting enough to hold my attention all the way through. Two passages that I found especially engaging were the interaction between Haruhi and Yuki on the first trip, starting with the humorous contrast between their personalities and then getting progressively more serious and significant; and the variations on the dream SOS Brigade where Haruhi processed her hidden fears and desires through several retakes of the same basic premise.
Glad to hear it! The Brigades were mostly a fun idea of "what would happen if the 'real' Haruhi (or as close as I can come to representing her, at least) ran into some of the more common fanfic flanderizations of the Brigade?"
The Yuki thing was basically an accident; I didn't really expect or plan for that little discussion to happen, and was kind of the first warning sign that the chapter was going to wind up a doozy. Really liked the way it went though, so I didn't want to cut it down or remove it.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 15, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
I got a feeling that there must have been references to something (and probably many different somethings) all over the chapter, but I couldn't recognize any.
The biggest one that I think people might pick up on is the opening of the first dream. I doubt these will see much speculation, so I'll go ahead and spoil them here.
The first dream landscape (with the floating islands) is basically the Kingdom of Zeal from the game Chrono Trigger.
The staircase leading up to a circle of pillars from the same scene is a really obscure reference that I'd be shocked to see anyone but Brian or myself recognize - it's from a forum RPG that he ran a few years ago called "The Day After Tomorrow". Those curious about it can find it down among the old games forums. =P
The rainforest scene afterwards was mostly inspired by the Pixar movie "Up".
And another obvious one, the morphing landscapes (and particularly the 'folding up skyscrapers' scene) were inspired by "Inception".
At least for Haruhi's side, I'll probably continue to include some video game references in some of her crazier dream landscapes - it ended up getting cut due to a misunderstanding about which day Haruhi and Kyon met in the dream, but there was also a dream opening where Haruhi was on one of the symphonic towers from the Ar tonelico series. I'd expect to see this one pop up again later.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 15, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
Some specific observations:
Haruhi going to the train station but not revealing herself to Kyon feels slightly OOC, as I'm used to seeing her charge into each situation head on regardless of circumstances. I would have expected her to either consider going there but deciding against it, or going there and be seen, coming up with some excuse for it.
If this is too jarring it can be removed. The original thought was that Haruhi would go to the station fully intending to harass Kyon and say goodbye, but after seeing him and his dad struggling with luggage, she actually stopped and just watched instead. With the way the chapter 2 scene is written it'd be easy enough to get rid of, and we can just imply that Nonoko caught sight of one of the other Brigade members doing the same thing.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 15, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
Concerning leaving one's body in a lucid dream, my own experience is that it's rather easy to leave the body, essentially becoming a disembodied point-of-view and even seeing your body from the outside; but at the same time it's impossible to return back to the same body. You can forcibly occupy the same space that the body does but it doesn't merge the two of you any more than locating yourself inside a brick wall makes you become the wall. Thus, I've found it much easier to create myself a new body when needed. Though, as already mentioned several times, your mileage may vary a lot, depending on the mind of the person dreaming. (Edit: on the whole, the lucid dream sequences were very well done and felt completely plausible, this OOB thing was the only (and very minor) detail that I even felt a need to comment on, so kudos for doing the research even if you've said that it's largely beside the point of the story!)
I'll... probably just leave that as is if it's fairly minor, overall. Glad to hear that it was mostly accurate, though! =D On that note, however, I might disclaim this chapter as starting to show some divergence between real lucid dreaming and what's in the story, as the differences are probably going to become more pronounced from here.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 15, 2012, 07:26:09 AM
Do people really say "crossing my arms under my breasts"? To me, it comes through as an odd and awkward way to express the issue when just "crossing my arms" would suffice, unless the person in question has so saggy breasts that it's indeed feasible to put stuff 'under' them. This phrase is used twice in the chapter.
I'm going to chalk this up to an artifact of my gender. >.> As a guy, the eye tends to be drawn to that part of a woman's body already, and when said woman crosses their arms, it tends to have something of a framing effect on that area, drawing the eye even more. Haruhi likely wouldn't give it a second thought though, and since this is her narration, these will be removed.
QuoteFollowing the deaths, the dam design was complemented with a series of levees intended to prevent the dam's waters from submerging most of the villages that would have been destroyed by the original design. With these modifications in place, the protests from the villagers were mostly silenced, and the construction of the dam was resumed.
Suggest "construction of the dam resumed" to avoid passive voice.
QuoteI rub my eyes a bit, closing the laptop and settling back in my chair - it's getting pretty late. There hasn't been much going on since Kyon left for Hinamizawa yesterday; I ended up heading over to the station to see him off, but it looked like they were having enough trouble with his little sister and all their luggage. Rather than barge into the middle of all that, I just waited around until their train left the station. I'm not sure, but I think Kyon's little sister might have seen me. If she did, though, she didn't say anything to Kyon or her parents about it that I could see.
Suggest cutting "though" in the last sentence somehow; it doesn't strike me as necessary.
QuoteSo without anything better to do, I decided to read up on this Hinamizawa place. Kyon wasn't kidding when he said the place was out in the middle of nowhere; the closest major city looks like it's Aomori, and just the train trip out <i>that</i> far is something like six hours at least. The big hydroelectric dam seems to be the only major thing anywhere near the village itself, but reading up on it did at least turn up a few links to some pretty wild local legends - a demon god that punishes sins by killing the villagers, and an old human sacrifice ritual that they still perform (in a way) today?
Repetition of "place" is underlined. The second could be replaced by, say, "village" or something similar.
QuoteAs far as the dreaming stuff goes, I've made a little bit of progress, but not much. I'd only gotten through the first couple of chapters by Friday night, so I didn't get to try much out at that point; I don't even remember anything about my dreams from that night. Last night I at least remembered part of my dream, but only a few fragments of it - I was walking around on the ceiling while everyone else was on the ground, but past that I can't remember any details. I think I'll have better luck tonight, though - I finished up the rest of the book earlier today and I've been doing those reality checks all day, so I should be ready.
Reptition of "night" is underlined. I think the third one is the only one I'd consider tweaking--perhaps "last night" -> "yesterday"? I think you can cut "at least" also, as well as "though".
QuoteThe first indication I have that things aren't completely normal is the silence. I'm used to tuning out all the noise of people around me to concentrate on what I've got on my mind, but this time there's absolutely nothing to ignore: no voices, no footsteps, not even birds or insects. Other than that, though, things seem fairly normal. I'm at the shopping arcade near Kitaguchi station, and everything looks like what I remember aside from the deathly quiet and the blank gray sky. It's not quite like an overcast sky, since there's no sign of any clouds, but just a blank featureless gray.
"This time" -> "Here"? I feel like "this time" means to contrast against some other specific time or place which it doesn't.
There's another "though" in this paragraph that I don't think is necessary. To give you an idea, you seem to use "though" around 70 times in this chapter. In contrast, I use it in
The Coin chapter seven (which is about 2000 words shorter) less than 15 times. I'm not saying you should use it as little as that, but you may wish to review each usage and decide if you like them or not. I'll not remark on them further.
"station" -> "Station", suggest "It's not quite like an overcast sky" -> "It's not quite overcast"
QuoteNow that I recognize it as a dream, though, I take stock of where I am a little more closely. It's definitely the shopping district downtown, but when I look closer a lot of the details just aren't there - the signs are blurry, and some of the stuff on display in shop windows are indistinct blobs - and when I think about it, most of those shops are places I've never been or paid attention to before, so it kind of makes sense that I wouldn't be able to get any details right about them in my dreams.
I suggest replacing "look closer" somehow to avoid repeating from "closely". There's some fuzzy subject-verb agreement in "some of the stuff ... are indistinct blobs".
QuoteThat aside, though... this place seems really dull, at least for a dream. There are no people, no noises, not even the air moving - at least, there's nothing moving until I spot a few points of red light crossing the sky. Maybe they're airplanes? But then, why would those be moving when I'm not seeing any people, or bicycles or cars or trains or any other kinds of vehicles? Just as I've made up my mind to take a closer look, though, they seem to vanish into the horizon - and I'm not so interested that I want to spend the entire time running around this grey world trying to find them again.
Suggest removing, uh, at least one of those "at least"s, if only for proximity.
Here you spell "grey" but elsewhere you spell "gray"?
QuoteThe longer I spend here, though, the more I feel like this place is here <i>waiting</i> for something, basically. It's hard to describe, but the impression I get is that this is like a blank canvas, waiting to be painted over with something more interesting. I consider trying to change it, but then I figure I'd better get an idea of what I'm working with first, before I try to alter it.
I don't think the "here" I've underlined is necessary.
QuoteI let my mind wander, literally; I get the impression I could make myself fly here, but I decide to try something different - leaving my body where it is and sending my perceptions out to explore, sort of an out-of-body experience. It's sort of like what you see in the movies, where the camera just zooms out and pans across the landscape - it doesn't really feel like I'm flying, just that my view is changing. As I come to the edge of Nishinomiya, though, the world just seems to stop; it's like there's a border between the grey space I'm in and what's outside of it. Just as an experiment, I try moving it - and sure enough, I can feel the space getting larger as I push at it. I decide not to go crazy with it, though; with most of Nishinomiya already in here, I've got plenty of room to play around in.
I have no particular vendetta against "here," but I think the underlined one could be better replaced by "in this place" to make more clear it's that instead of flying "here" from somewhere else.
QuoteOnce I let my awareness return to my body, I decide to try a few things out, just to see what I can do. Flying is the obvious thing - the book mentioned it as one of the most common things to do in a lucid dream - but I sort of just did that, and I'm more interested in seeing what else I can do. With as empty as this place is, there's one obvious thing to start with, and so I do it, closing my eyes to concentrate for a moment. When I open them, Kyon is standing in front of me with a completely neutral expression on his face, dressed in his usual school uniform. I can't help but smirk as I walk around him, checking out my own handiwork; the 'Kyon' doesn't react to me at all, though, standing there more or less like a mannequin - although he isn't one, as he feels warm when I touch his face. A moment of concentration and I'm able to make him put on his usual sour look and cross his arms, although I have to specifically think about it to get him to move at all - it's like controlling a puppet in a way.
"the 'Kyon'" -> "this 'Kyon'"?
Quote"All right, the guided tour starts in an hour! Koizumi, Mikuru-chan, you two are a group; look for anything particularly unusual and report back here in 45 minutes!" I point at the two Brigade members in question, who just nod in reply. "We'll need to be prepared so we can dig for details on some of the less well-known things about the castle! I'll be doing the same with Yuki - so don't be late meeting back up!"
Koizumi-
kun.
QuoteThe answer, when it comes, gives me the urge to facepalm - Yuki just holds up a travel guide for Himeji Castle, something I should not only have guessed but expected from our resident bookworm. I shake my head in reply, hiding a smile; it's nice to see people being predictable, even if I'm not paying enough attention to realize it.
Very clever, Nagato. Very clever.
Quote"Hey, Yuki-chan," I start off, looking over at the light-haired girl. Her only response is to look me in the eyes, the vaguest hint of expectation - or maybe curiosity? - in her stare. Score one for the model so far.
"Yuki-chan" is a deliberate deviation from Haruhi's normal mode of addressing her ("Yuki")? If not, there are at least two other instances of it.
QuoteShe shakes her head. "Additional knowledge makes relying on the simpler model unsatisfactory, as it may obviously contradict results predicted by that model."
"It" being "additional knowledge"? If it is, then I understand.
Quote"Like, for example, when we were making the movie," I start out hesitantly, looking away from Yuki. "When I got Mikuru-chan drunk at Tsuruya's house - I completely didn't expect Kyon to get that upset about it." I look up at the leaves of the tree above me, the words feeling like they're coming from someone else. "I knew he was upset - I was trying to push his buttons, so it's not like I didn't expect that - but I had no idea he was <i>that</i> angry."
Tsuruya-
san.
Quote"So maybe you're not an alien or an esper like I've been looking for, but that doesn't mean you can't be amazing in other ways! Even normal humans can be inventors or visionaries or geniuses and change the way the world works - that could be you, too!" It feels a little weird to be echoing something Kyon said to me, even if he was taking it in a totally different direction. "With all the thought you've put into this mental model thing, maybe you <i>can</i> come up with a better picture of how the mind works - how we get from nerve cells firing off in our heads to the Mona Lisa or Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Or maybe since you like sci-fi books a lot, you could become a writer, and take those ideas and give them your own spin and then inspire other people to try to make the things you write become real!
This is a nice moment on the whole between Haruhi and Nagato. It's positive for Haruhi's improved view on the world and to show that she genuinely cares about other people.
QuoteI'm curious about what Mikuru was talking about, but we've got a tour to catch up with - I definitely want to look into this, but it'll have to wait for now!
I do hope Haruhi does follow up on this--it would take at least a cursory excuse from Asahina to explain this away.
QuoteThe end of the trip is a huge letdown. It takes us a lot longer than expected to catch up with the tour; since we didn't see it leave, no one is quite sure which direction they went to start with, although Yuki managed to guess pretty well - or maybe she had an idea from the travel guide she read; I'm not sure. We don't actually reach the tour group until they get to Okiku's Well itself, and the tour guide is just finishing up the story of how her ghost can be heard counting dishes at night. I'm familiar with the story, so there's nothing really new there, but one thing I'd always wanted to do was try coming here at night to see if I could hear the ghost.
It may be useful to do "her ghost" -> "Okiku's ghost" if I'm reading this right.
QuoteWhile this is an amazing place, and one I <i>definitely</i> want to take more time to explore, it's also not the main thing I want to concentrate on here right this minute - and that's finding Kyon's dreams. There's a stone bench next to the path here; I'm not quite sure whether it was here when I started walking or whether it just showed up now when I stopped to look, but either way I guess it doesn't really matter - it gives me a place to sit down and think about what I'm doing.
Suggest removing the underlined "here".
QuoteI really don't feel like getting into it, though, so I more or less just blow him off - but it kind of takes the wind out of my sails on trying to sneak around to see the off-limits part of the castle, too, since just about every time I make up my mind to try something he seems to notice that I'm upset and asks me about it - and won't take the hint to just leave me alone either. Whatever, it's not like it's all that important anyway.
Since you only use it twice, it's not criminal, but I do notice that this is the second time you've used the "wind out of my sails" saying.
QuoteI don't really look around the house yet, though; what's more interesting is seeing the butler here at all. While I really doubt this is the <i>real</i> Arakawa-san, it's still the first example I've had of another person acting independently from me.
Careful; you haven't had honorifics in narration all chapter.
Quote"Asahina!" Koizumi barks, sounding far more angry than I did. I'll admit to being seriously annoyed at her acting like that, but Koizumi... if I didn't know better, I'd say he was on the verge of throwing her out bodily. "Kyon-kun has duties to the Brigade, and as such they supersede anything you have in mind!"
Asahina-
san.
QuoteI snatch it away almost immediately, though. "Koizumi, what the hell?"
Koizumi-
kun.
I like that Haruhi feels a bit guilty for losing her temper over a dream Kyon's insubordination and recognizes that he was similar enough that her feelings were real even if he wasn't.
QuoteAfter a long, sleepless night, stuck listening to rain patter against the windows, I manage to struggle out of bed. I feel like hell, and with the rain showing no signs of letting up I'm not particularly inclined to go out and do anything today. Even before I bother to wash my face, I get text messages sent to the rest of the Brigade to cancel the trip for today. I don't even bother checking for replies for now; it's still early enough that they shouldn't have left for the station yet anyway. Probably a good thing, too, since I'm really having to struggle to get moving this morning.
Suggest "I get text messages sent" -> "I send text messages" because before "sent" is processed, the image is that of Haruhi receiving messages.
I'll be interested to see what exactly Asahina and her people were trying to do. Influencing Haruhi's feelings toward dissatisfaction with the castle visits and more time in dreams seems pretty straightforward, but the reason for doing so is still a mystery. Now the narratives are at the same point again, so we can see what Kyon has in store.
I'll take a leaf from Brian's book here: if I don't comment on something directly, assume I used it.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PM
QuoteAs far as the dreaming stuff goes, I've made a little bit of progress, but not much. I'd only gotten through the first couple of chapters by Friday night, so I didn't get to try much out at that point; I don't even remember anything about my dreams from that night. Last night I at least remembered part of my dream, but only a few fragments of it - I was walking around on the ceiling while everyone else was on the ground, but past that I can't remember any details. I think I'll have better luck tonight, though - I finished up the rest of the book earlier today and I've been doing those reality checks all day, so I should be ready.
Reptition of "night" is underlined. I think the third one is the only one I'd consider tweaking--perhaps "last night" -> "yesterday"? I think you can cut "at least" also, as well as "though".
The 'night' reference was updated, but 'at least' needs to stay - she's not completely satisfied that she didn't have a lucid dream, but she's admitting that there was a small degree of progress regardless. Got rid of the 'though', however.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteThe first indication I have that things aren't completely normal is the silence. I'm used to tuning out all the noise of people around me to concentrate on what I've got on my mind, but this time there's absolutely nothing to ignore: no voices, no footsteps, not even birds or insects. Other than that, though, things seem fairly normal. I'm at the shopping arcade near Kitaguchi station, and everything looks like what I remember aside from the deathly quiet and the blank gray sky. It's not quite like an overcast sky, since there's no sign of any clouds, but just a blank featureless gray.
"This time" -> "Here"? I feel like "this time" means to contrast against some other specific time or place which it doesn't.
Switched this to 'in this case'. She's not specifically referring to another dream situation, but other situations where she's been at the station.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMThere's another "though" in this paragraph that I don't think is necessary. To give you an idea, you seem to use "though" around 70 times in this chapter. In contrast, I use it in The Coin chapter seven (which is about 2000 words shorter) less than 15 times. I'm not saying you should use it as little as that, but you may wish to review each usage and decide if you like them or not. I'll not remark on them further.
Ugh. Guilty as charged; I've noted it myself at times (and had deleted a few before I even tossed the chapter up). I'll be reviewing and clearing out some of the unnecessary usage. At least the word can usually be deleted without having to restructure a sentence.
EDIT: After revision, cut this down to 26 uses - which in a chapter this length, doesn't seem too unreasonable.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PM"station" -> "Station", suggest "It's not quite like an overcast sky" -> "It's not quite overcast"
Station changed (I thought I had capitalized it, odd). The sky comment needs to stay as is, although I'll clarify it - the sky isn't cloudy, just gray. The suggestion implies that it's cloudy, just not quite to the point of being overcast.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteOnce I let my awareness return to my body, I decide to try a few things out, just to see what I can do. Flying is the obvious thing - the book mentioned it as one of the most common things to do in a lucid dream - but I sort of just did that, and I'm more interested in seeing what else I can do. With as empty as this place is, there's one obvious thing to start with, and so I do it, closing my eyes to concentrate for a moment. When I open them, Kyon is standing in front of me with a completely neutral expression on his face, dressed in his usual school uniform. I can't help but smirk as I walk around him, checking out my own handiwork; the 'Kyon' doesn't react to me at all, though, standing there more or less like a mannequin - although he isn't one, as he feels warm when I touch his face. A moment of concentration and I'm able to make him put on his usual sour look and cross his arms, although I have to specifically think about it to get him to move at all - it's like controlling a puppet in a way.
"the 'Kyon'" -> "this 'Kyon'"?
With the quotes, I don't really need to specify 'the' or 'this' at all, really. Haruhi knows he's fake, and there aren't multiple of him.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuote"Hey, Yuki-chan," I start off, looking over at the light-haired girl. Her only response is to look me in the eyes, the vaguest hint of expectation - or maybe curiosity? - in her stare. Score one for the model so far.
"Yuki-chan" is a deliberate deviation from Haruhi's normal mode of addressing her ("Yuki")? If not, there are at least two other instances of it.
Modified for now. I get the sneaking suspicion that Yuki and Haruhi are going to become closer over the course of this story, but the groundwork for that's only just been laid here. Time to get there later.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteShe shakes her head. "Additional knowledge makes relying on the simpler model unsatisfactory, as it may obviously contradict results predicted by that model."
"It" being "additional knowledge"? If it is, then I understand.
You are correct - I thought it was clear since I refer to the model specifically, so the only logical thing for 'it' to be is the additional knowledge. If it's fuzzy I can clarify further.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteI'm curious about what Mikuru was talking about, but we've got a tour to catch up with - I definitely want to look into this, but it'll have to wait for now!
I do hope Haruhi does follow up on this--it would take at least a cursory excuse from Asahina to explain this away.
There are some plans in this direction, but I shall say no more!
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteThe end of the trip is a huge letdown. It takes us a lot longer than expected to catch up with the tour; since we didn't see it leave, no one is quite sure which direction they went to start with, although Yuki managed to guess pretty well - or maybe she had an idea from the travel guide she read; I'm not sure. We don't actually reach the tour group until they get to Okiku's Well itself, and the tour guide is just finishing up the story of how her ghost can be heard counting dishes at night. I'm familiar with the story, so there's nothing really new there, but one thing I'd always wanted to do was try coming here at night to see if I could hear the ghost.
It may be useful to do "her ghost" -> "Okiku's ghost" if I'm reading this right.
I went with 'the servant girl Okiku's ghost' - because obviously this chapter isn't long enough and I need more words. But it gives more info on the story without actually telling it.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuoteI really don't feel like getting into it, though, so I more or less just blow him off - but it kind of takes the wind out of my sails on trying to sneak around to see the off-limits part of the castle, too, since just about every time I make up my mind to try something he seems to notice that I'm upset and asks me about it - and won't take the hint to just leave me alone either. Whatever, it's not like it's all that important anyway.
Since you only use it twice, it's not criminal, but I do notice that this is the second time you've used the "wind out of my sails" saying.
I recall noting this during the writing, but I couldn't come up with anything better to get the same sentiment across. Open to suggestions, certainly.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMQuote"Asahina!" Koizumi barks, sounding far more angry than I did. I'll admit to being seriously annoyed at her acting like that, but Koizumi... if I didn't know better, I'd say he was on the verge of throwing her out bodily. "Kyon-kun has duties to the Brigade, and as such they supersede anything you have in mind!"
Asahina-san.
QuoteI snatch it away almost immediately, though. "Koizumi, what the hell?"
Koizumi-kun.
The earlier references to the lack of honorifics were fully justified (and corrected), but in these cases the Brigade members aren't acting like their normal selves, and the lack of honorifics is intentional. Koizumi in the first sees Mikuru more or less as a mortal enemy (and thus undeserving of respect), and in the second Haruhi is shocked as hell by what Koizumi just did, so she's being sharp with him.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMI like that Haruhi feels a bit guilty for losing her temper over a dream Kyon's insubordination and recognizes that he was similar enough that her feelings were real even if he wasn't.
Glad you liked! Seemed that a lot of folks liked the dream Brigades and the chat with Yuki, which is always good to know - if I got something right with these, it gives me something to emulate later on.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMI'll be interested to see what exactly Asahina and her people were trying to do. Influencing Haruhi's feelings toward dissatisfaction with the castle visits and more time in dreams seems pretty straightforward, but the reason for doing so is still a mystery.
I don't mind sharing the castle orders now, since it's a relatively minor point. The main objective there was just to try not to get Haruhi -too- upset; Mikuru's superiors were aware that Haruhi would come looking, and she'd find Mikuru and Koizumi faster if they weren't wandering around the castle grounds trying to find Haruhi as well. The timing of her relaying that to Koizumi was just poor, and Haruhi overheard it.
Quote from: Halbarad on January 16, 2012, 11:47:03 AMQuote from: Muphrid on January 15, 2012, 10:19:55 PMSince you only use it twice, it's not criminal, but I do notice that this is the second time you've used the "wind out of my sails" saying.
I recall noting this during the writing, but I couldn't come up with anything better to get the same sentiment across. Open to suggestions, certainly.
Muphrid: 'Idiom'.
Halbarad: I think I remarked on the repetition, too-- It's not the use of the phrase, it's the proximity. My suggestion is to either lampshade it ("And once again, the wind is taken from my sails!") or find an alternative. I can't come up with a good alternative -- so how about in one instance, instead of using the idiom, just describe exactly what Haruhi's feeling?
Otherwise ... oh-- Maybe something like, "can't help but feel like I was beaten to the punch"?
Also, I realize I disagree with Sarsaparilla on this one-- But I don't think it's really OOC of Haruhi to not say anything to Kyon/show herself at the train station. I can see her arguments for Haruhi
intending to be her brash self, but I can also see the Haruhi that's always behaved in front of Kyon's mother (at least, according to the implications of the novels) and in front of other figures in public (Sakanaka's mother, at the very least)-- If that's not enough, there's also the tiny bit of tsundereness that I feel does fit into Haruhi's character that would make it hard for her to actually reveal herself.
The compromise is probably to have her intend to show herself to him, 'just to check that he really was going,' but convince herself that he was having a family moment (or something along those lines)-- Maybe, she could even think that Kyon's sister would reveal that she had been there to Kyon and that'd be enough; she just didn't want to deal with Kyon's parents?
Personally, I think Haruhi going to watch him off is cute.
Sarsaparilla, if the goal was to preserve that scene, what changes would you suggest?
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2012, 12:39:32 PMif the goal was to preserve that scene, what changes would you suggest?
I'm not sure that I can offer anything specific. I can certainly see the angle that Haruhi wants to respect Kyon's family by not forcibly intruding during the scene, but shouldn't she know in advance that Kyon won't be alone? The most plausible approach would be to use Haruhi's tendency to act before she has figured out the details (Haruhi: "Of course one should always take the initiative! The details will sort themselves out, somehow.") and more obviously underline her change of mind when the situation doesn't warrant the approach she had planned. Personally, I'd try to write in some trigger condition (something that Kyon/his family does) to elicit the desired reaction, but as the scene is already pretty much fixed on that side, it would have to be Haruhi's thought process that is highlighted.
I guess that as long as it's obvious that Haruhi didn't arrive at the station just to watch from afar it should be okay, and even show a bit of Haruhi's considerate side.
Added a bit to clarify this.
Quote from: Revision
There hasn't been much going on since Kyon left for Hinamizawa yesterday; I ended up heading over to the station to see him off, but I didn't think about the fact that his entire family would be there - and it looked like they were having enough trouble trying to manage his little sister and all their luggage.
Well, this chapter was worth the wait.
Usual disclaimer: below C&C is meant as easily-ignorable data point. May be redundant with what other people have said.
QuoteHinamizawa Dam was completed in 1981, following several years of protests by local residents concerned about the destruction of their homes by the lake that would be formed to power the hydroelectric dam. The initial construction project was halted in 1979, following the death of the project foreman and the disappearance of one of the men allegedly involved with his murder. Some residents associated the deaths with the local legends of the demon god Oyashiro, which intensified the protests.
Perhaps just "associated the deaths with local legends of the demon god Oyashiro". (No "the"?)
Quote
Following the deaths, the dam design was complemented with a series of levees intended to prevent the dam's waters from submerging most of the villages that would have been destroyed by the original design. With these modifications in place, the protests from the villagers were mostly silenced, and the construction of the dam was resumed.
"most of the villages"..."mostly silenced" repetition. Alternatives:
Also, might consider "would have been destroyed with the original design".
QuoteI'm not sure, but I think Kyon's little sister might have seen me. If she did, though, she didn't say anything to Kyon or her parents about it that I could see.
"that I could see" is a bit awkward. EDIT: I see you corrected this.
Quotethe closest major city looks like it's Aomori, and just the train trip out <i>that</i> far is something like six hours at least.
"looks like" is awkward. "seems to be Aomori"?
Quotea demon god that punishes sins by killing the villagers, and an old human sacrifice ritual that they still perform (in a way) today?
"(in a way)" could stand to be clarified since Haruhi, the narrator, is reading about it for the first time. (Not familiar with Higurashi -- I assume it's a symbolic sacrifice nowadays?)
Quotehe's sure to know more about those legends than just the simple stuff I was able to find online.
Suggest rephrasing "simple stuff".... somehow. Not sure.
Speculation: the first lucid dream seems to take place in a closed space, so it seems to follow vastly different rules -- even compared to the subsequent dream. I'd assume this is sort of an intermediate stage of Haruhi figuring out how to project dreams into a closed space in order to share them.
QuoteI haven't exactly been trying to pace myself, and she doesn't really look all that athletic so she might not have been able to keep up
I seem to remember Yuki running ridiculously fast in a relay race at the beginning of Novel 2 with Haruhi present, which would seem to contradict this.. unless you want to argue that Haruhi has forgotten about it.
Quote"There are ten gates remaining," Yuki replies, barely on the edge of my hearing - which startles me a bit, I wasn't expecting an answer at all. "Only 21 of the original 84 gates remain."
Bit stilted and confusing, since (I assume?) the first 'remain' refers to how many gates they have to go through before the castle, and the second refers to how many of the gates are still standing since the castle was constructed. Yuki is at least precise with her language, so you might want to vary one of the 'remains' and change it to something else.
QuoteI don't get an answer though; Yuki just stares back at me with that same non-expression she usually wears. Whatever, it's probably not that important. We're wasting time though -
Repetition "don't get an answer though"...."wasting time though"
In terms of ways to shorten the chapter... my best bet would be to try to rework the dialogue between Haruhi and Yuki about predicting the behaviour of other people. (Not that it's too long as it is, but it does take its time.) It seems like the same ideas and interaction could be expressed in fewer words. This would take a lot more thinking, though, than just cutting pieces of it out, but it seems possible.
That's assuming you really think the chapter is too long. I think the length should be fine as is.
Especially since for some reason I really liked seeing this take on how Haruhi and Yuki interact when Kyon isn't around.
Quotewe got back to the entrance where we were supposed to meet back up with Koizumi and Mikuru, we're already ten minutes behind
Tense mismatch: "we were ... we're". Suggest "we were"..."we'd fallen an entire ten minutes behind schedule" or similar (to avoid repetition of "we were")
QuoteGuess she was paying more attention when we parted ways - although if she hadn't we'd just be wandering blindly anyway.
I assume this means that if Yuki hadn't paid attention, Haruhi should still follow her since they'll be wandering blind whether she follows her or not?
Quotethe path leading over towards the outbuildings winds back and forth almost as much as the trip up to the keep proper, although there are no gates here, just a stone-walled path that winds back and forth, with what look like arrow-slits in all kinds of geometric shapes.
Very obvious repetition of "winds back and forth". Maybe the first phrase could be replaced by something like "the path leading over towards the outbuildings is nearly as convoluted as the way up to the keep proper".
QuoteWith as twisty and confusing as the paths are that I've seen here, we could probably wander around all day trying to find each other and never meet.
Awkward. Maybe something like "As twisty and confusing as the paths that I've seen here are" / "With the paths that I've seen here as twisty as confusing as they are"...
Quote"You guys are <i>really</i> late, you know," I start off, crossing my arms under my breasts as I scowl at the pair.
QuoteI cross my arms under my breasts and scowl - I'm not sure I like this particular representation of Koizumi.
Sarsaparilla already pointed out "arms under breasts" as being slightly strange, but it might be good to remind that it occurs no less than two times in the story, on the off chance one of the usages is missed.
Quote(regarding Mikuru) The problem with it is that seeing that actually makes me <i>feel</i> like some terrible ogre, and gets me even more angry. Not a good feedback loop to get caught in.
(regarding Kyon) In <i>his</i> case, at least, he pushes back when I carp at him - which usually leads to me yelling at him even more - but after all's said and done, I feel better for having gotten all of it out. He's never seemed to hold much of a grudge or gotten too upset about anything - with one notable exception, but I've been through that already.
It's a bit odd how Haruhi presents her reasoning here. In Mikuru's case she gets caught in a feedback loop... and in Kyon's case she also gets caught in a feedback loop... except in Kyon's case it's worth it to let off steam. It's obvious that the difference is because Kyon doesn't ever take it to heart, just the way Haruhi says it skips a step somewhere. Maybe add in the next sentence something like
"I always feel safe {speaking my mind in front of him / whathaveyou} because he never seems to hold much of a grudge or get too upset about anything - with one notable exception, but I've been through that already. "
Quoteand one I <i>definitely</i> want to take more time to explore,
<_< .... >_>
/me is furtively curious whether sarsaparilla has ever visited the same non-real-world location twice in a dream.
Quoteso more likely he'll be in someplace a lot more mundane.
Seems awkward. How about
"so most likely he'll be in someplace a lot more mundane" or
"so it's more likely he'll be someplace a lot more mundane".
Question for Hal: I'm not sure, do you find this sort of nitpicking useful? I keep reaching to tweak something almost every second paragraph, but then stop myself when I realize that Haruhi's narration style is just more conversational and informal; conversational language tends to vary a lot regionally; which would mean I don't even have a good grasp on what's natural in this style and what's awkward.
Anyhow, for now I'll just give suggestions for what strikes me as obviously odd.
Aside: the page-turning trick is believable enough that I actually want to try it someday.QuoteRather than turning a page in a book, I decide to close the entire book itself so I can open a new one.
Later...
Haruhi (slaps forehead in irritation at herself): "Why didn't I think to just look up 'Kyon' in the index?"
(Interestingly, 'goddamn it, why didn't I do X??' is the primary thought I tend to have as an inexperienced dreamer on waking up from a lucid dream.)
QuoteAnd I sit bolt upright in bed,
You use this exact phrase twice in the chapter. I'd get rid of this usage, and keep the one after the Brigades dreams. That way it underscores the impact (since it only happens after a seriously shocking nightmare), whereas as written, using "bolt upright" just generically for when Haruhi wakes up feels like a cliche.
... which I used myself not five days ago in that RPG Drac is running. D'oh! The irony!Quotealthough it's always hard to tell
Considering "although as always it's hard to tell". Not sure, though.
Quoteabout every time I make up my mind to try something he seems to notice that I'm upset and asks me about it
It feels like there should be a comma in there: "... to try something, he seems to notice ...".
Quotein a bit of a hurry for something,
Okay, this feels odd. Normally I'd expect "in a bit of a hurry to be somewhere".
QuoteSeems like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass,
Maybe "Feels like giving" or "It feels like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass"?
It's just that starting with "seems" makes me expect a sentence along the lines of "seems like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass would result in so-and-so".
Quoteto warn him to work on his assignment
Not sure about "warn". 'Pester' or 'remind' or similar? Maybe even 'remind him not to slack off on his assignment'?
The only thing I can think of where 'warn' would work to describe the situation is if she's thinking to make a stereotypical threat of punishing Kyon when he gets back unless her works hard on the assignment. (And thus she's warning him of the punishment.) Which, given the fact that having a shared dream isn't guaranteed (and isn't even in the assignment as Haruhi specified it to Kyon), and beyond that there isn't a clear definition of what sort of lucid dream experience would be 'successful' for Kyon to achieve in that period of time... essentially, if that phone call did happen it would be like she was threatening to punish Kyon for not living up to some undefined standard... which, yeah, there's a problem with that.
So, if you use 'warn' and the reader stops to think about it in this sort of detail (admittedly unlikely), it comes across that Haruhi is
considering acting like a total jerk, but then decides not to. Which... feels a bit odd, and if so should be presented differently in any case.
Take advice with a spoonful of salt.
Quotethe butler doesn't seem to have been bothered in the slightest by my clothes just spontaneously changing during this whole process, so it's more evidence that this probably isn't the real one - I imagine he'd at least have said something while all that was going on.
<_< ... >_>
*envy*
Why can't
my DC's be as polite and well behaved as Arakawa-san? O_o;;
If this was one of my dreams, he'd probably have come up with some frightening psychoanalytical deconstruction of the situation in that time interval!
(After reading the Brigades scenes, however, I am conversely glad I don't have Haruhi's dreams. I mean... at least the characters in my dreams don't push my buttons
quite so efficiently.)
{/peanut gallery mode off}
QuoteThe last warning I have that things are not going well is a blue glow from outside the clubroom, then the room explodes-
And I sit bolt upright in bed,
This is the second use of "bolt upright" in the chapter (the one I would agree is well-justified by the context).
(I remember I gave Brian grief about this in Chapter 2 as well. For some reason "sitting bolt upright in bed" is used as an image associated with waking up suddenly so often -- probably
far more often than it happens in real life -- that outside of special circumstances like this
really serious nightmare it comes across as a cliche, much like "waking up in a cold sweat". Even if some people actually genuinely wake up like that.
I guess it's just an easy-to-use symbolism in filmmaking. Where it also feels like a cliche.)
QuoteEven before I bother to wash my face, I get text messages sent to the rest of the Brigade to cancel the trip for today.
After seeing that Muphrid took issue with this, I would also throw out something like "I get text messages out to the rest of the Brigade" / "I get some text messages out to the rest of the Brigade".
Gyuh... and my battery is dying. By your leave, I'll finish the C&C later today. Just a small bit left in any case.
EDIT to the above: ... and I missed a bunch of TODOs! Gyuh! 7% battery remaining... fixed!
*runs to find a wall socket*
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM(I remember I gave Brian grief about this in Chapter 2 as well. For some reason "sitting bolt upright in bed" is used as an image associated with waking up suddenly so often -- probably far more often than it happens in real life -- that outside of special circumstances like this really serious nightmare it comes across as a cliche, much like "waking up in a cold sweat". Even if some people actually genuinely wake up like that.
I guess it's just an easy-to-use symbolism in filmmaking. Where it also feels like a cliche.)
I literally leap out of bed and wake up on my feet (prepared to try and defend myself) if someone unfamiliar comes into my room while I'm sleeping. It's never happened before, but I expect if I had a nightmare that involved something I could punch (instead of the typical sanity/agency-devouring ...
things I recall from the three nightmares I remember), I'd probably wake up from them the same way.
Then again -- I realize I'm a rarity here. I recall a specific instance (about a decade ago) when I broke up with an ex-girlfriend but we had to awkwardly live together for a week; she got a little freaked out that I'd wake up like that when she came into the room. And it happened every time, too....
Once when sleeping on a bunk-bed I got up so fast I smashed my head into the ceiling and knocked myself out because my roommate at the time walked in. -_-
...so, yeah, probably most people don't do that. :\
Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2012, 03:18:58 PM
I literally leap out of bed and wake up on my feet (prepared to try and defend myself) if someone unfamiliar comes into my room while I'm sleeping. It's never happened before, but I expect if I had a nightmare that involved something I could punch (instead of the typical sanity/agency-devouring ... things I recall from the three nightmares I remember), I'd probably wake up from them the same way.
*finds power plug*
Actually, that jogged my memory back to the rosy days of going through driver's ed, where our instructor (a former sleep-deprived trucker) regaled us with stories of how, for several years after quitting the trucking job, he would majorly freak out his wife up to several times a night by bolting upright and reaching for the non-existent steering wheel.
So yeah, anecdotal evidence indicates that even if a person doesn't innately tend to bolt awake, the behaviour could even be conditioned. And I could point out that I'd agree Haruhi, being generally energetic, comes across as more likely to leap upright when she wakes up than Kyon, who attempts to sleep through being bodily dragged out of bed by his sister.
Okay, and the rest of it.
Quoteand it might help to distract me out of some of the darker thoughts that have been running through my head today.
"distract me out of" seems odd. "distract me from" / "distract me away from"?
QuoteI put dinner together and retreat to my room to finish up.
Maybe consider "I put some dinner together" / "I throw some dinner together" / "I slap some dinner together"?
Quotethe fact that I'm in the ouendan coat and tank top seems to tell the story, although with the gloves on my usual reality check doesn't work - simply taking one off for a moment solves that problem though.
Aside: my most frequent lucid dreaming annoyance is that the first thing I want to do is struggle to adjust my 'look' in a similar fashion. However, frequently the dream is over by the time I finish doing it.
*sigh* I should learn to stop doing that until my dreams get longer.
Quotereversing his personal gravity,
/me vainly resists making a 'reverse the polarity' joke.
Anyhow, not much I can find wrong with the remaining portion of the fic. In general, this is turning out to be a thought provoking fic. Enjoyed: Haruhi/Yuki interaction, the general mechanics of the dreaming. (In general, the divergences from my own experience are justified since they fit Haruhi's personality.) The Brigades bit was a fairly strong gutpunch, for what it's worth.
First set of comments for Arakawa.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
QuoteHinamizawa Dam was completed in 1981, following several years of protests by local residents concerned about the destruction of their homes by the lake that would be formed to power the hydroelectric dam. The initial construction project was halted in 1979, following the death of the project foreman and the disappearance of one of the men allegedly involved with his murder. Some residents associated the deaths with the local legends of the demon god Oyashiro, which intensified the protests.
Perhaps just "associated the deaths with local legends of the demon god Oyashiro". (No "the"?)
Don't really see a need to change this; it doesn't really add or take away from the clarity of the statement.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quote
Following the deaths, the dam design was complemented with a series of levees intended to prevent the dam's waters from submerging most of the villages that would have been destroyed by the original design. With these modifications in place, the protests from the villagers were mostly silenced, and the construction of the dam was resumed.
"most of the villages"..."mostly silenced" repetition. Alternatives:
Also, might consider "would have been destroyed with the original design".
Changed 'mostly' to 'largely'.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quotethe closest major city looks like it's Aomori, and just the train trip out <i>that</i> far is something like six hours at least.
"looks like" is awkward. "seems to be Aomori"?
Inclined to hang onto this; it's more colloquial as written, if not quite as concise or technically accurate, and I'd like to keep that tone.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quotea demon god that punishes sins by killing the villagers, and an old human sacrifice ritual that they still perform (in a way) today?
"(in a way)" could stand to be clarified since Haruhi, the narrator, is reading about it for the first time. (Not familiar with Higurashi -- I assume it's a symbolic sacrifice nowadays?)
I don't really want to bog down in a long description of the Watanagashi ritual; the chapter is already too long, and it's not going to have any real significance in this story as it stands.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quotehe's sure to know more about those legends than just the simple stuff I was able to find online.
Suggest rephrasing "simple stuff".... somehow. Not sure.
The only thing I could really see replacing it with is 'basic stuff', which is essentially no different. =\
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
QuoteI haven't exactly been trying to pace myself, and she doesn't really look all that athletic so she might not have been able to keep up
I seem to remember Yuki running ridiculously fast in a relay race at the beginning of Novel 2 with Haruhi present, which would seem to contradict this.. unless you want to argue that Haruhi has forgotten about it.
Brian mentioned this as well; my inclination was that if it was minor enough that *I* didn't remember it off the top of my head, it's about as likely that Haruhi would have forgotten too. It's not like Yuki's made a regular practice of showing physical abilities beyond her appearance.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quote"There are ten gates remaining," Yuki replies, barely on the edge of my hearing - which startles me a bit, I wasn't expecting an answer at all. "Only 21 of the original 84 gates remain."
Bit stilted and confusing, since (I assume?) the first 'remain' refers to how many gates they have to go through before the castle, and the second refers to how many of the gates are still standing since the castle was constructed. Yuki is at least precise with her language, so you might want to vary one of the 'remains' and change it to something else.
Quote from: Revision
"There are ten gates left to pass before reaching the keep," Yuki replies, barely on the edge of my hearing - which startles me a bit, I wasn't expecting an answer at all. "Only 21 of the castle's original 84 gates remain."
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
QuoteI don't get an answer though; Yuki just stares back at me with that same non-expression she usually wears. Whatever, it's probably not that important. We're wasting time though -
Repetition "don't get an answer though"...."wasting time though"
A lot of this was corrected as a result of Muphrid's observation.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
QuoteGuess she was paying more attention when we parted ways - although if she hadn't we'd just be wandering blindly anyway.
I assume this means that if Yuki hadn't paid attention, Haruhi should still follow her since they'll be wandering blind whether she follows her or not?
No, Haruhi would be taking the lead in that case, and she knows she'd be only guessing at where to go.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quotethe path leading over towards the outbuildings winds back and forth almost as much as the trip up to the keep proper, although there are no gates here, just a stone-walled path that winds back and forth, with what look like arrow-slits in all kinds of geometric shapes.
Very obvious repetition of "winds back and forth". Maybe the first phrase could be replaced by something like "the path leading over towards the outbuildings is nearly as convoluted as the way up to the keep proper".
Just removed the second one. It's not actually needed at all.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
QuoteWith as twisty and confusing as the paths are that I've seen here, we could probably wander around all day trying to find each other and never meet.
Awkward. Maybe something like "As twisty and confusing as the paths that I've seen here are" / "With the paths that I've seen here as twisty as confusing as they are"...
Just cut down in general. "With as twisty and confusing as these paths are, ..."
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Quote(regarding Mikuru) The problem with it is that seeing that actually makes me <i>feel</i> like some terrible ogre, and gets me even more angry. Not a good feedback loop to get caught in.
(regarding Kyon) In <i>his</i> case, at least, he pushes back when I carp at him - which usually leads to me yelling at him even more - but after all's said and done, I feel better for having gotten all of it out. He's never seemed to hold much of a grudge or gotten too upset about anything - with one notable exception, but I've been through that already.
It's a bit odd how Haruhi presents her reasoning here. In Mikuru's case she gets caught in a feedback loop... and in Kyon's case she also gets caught in a feedback loop... except in Kyon's case it's worth it to let off steam. It's obvious that the difference is because Kyon doesn't ever take it to heart, just the way Haruhi says it skips a step somewhere. Maybe add in the next sentence something like
"I always feel safe {speaking my mind in front of him / whathaveyou} because he never seems to hold much of a grudge or get too upset about anything - with one notable exception, but I've been through that already. "
The difference is that what she's describing with Kyon is not a feedback loop. Specifically, that refers to a situation where the output of the system affects the input, and implies some form of infinite recursion - you tend not to break out of one without specific effort. With Kyon she explicitly states that it has a definite breakpoint, at which point she feels better.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Question for Hal: I'm not sure, do you find this sort of nitpicking useful? I keep reaching to tweak something almost every second paragraph, but then stop myself when I realize that Haruhi's narration style is just more conversational and informal; conversational language tends to vary a lot regionally; which would mean I don't even have a good grasp on what's natural in this style and what's awkward.
If I'm speaking bluntly, a lot of the awkward wording comments tend to strike me as hitting points that don't need to be changed. What I'm looking for (ideally) are things that are blatantly wrong or are confusing enough not to make any sense - in those cases, I need to make a correction. If it makes sense but simply looks awkward, that's not as much of a concern, since that's likely just a stylistic difference.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 03:05:48 PM
Anyhow, for now I'll just give suggestions for what strikes me as obviously odd.
Quotealthough it's always hard to tell
Considering "although as always it's hard to tell". Not sure, though.
Quoteabout every time I make up my mind to try something he seems to notice that I'm upset and asks me about it
It feels like there should be a comma in there: "... to try something, he seems to notice ...".
Quotein a bit of a hurry for something,
Okay, this feels odd. Normally I'd expect "in a bit of a hurry to be somewhere".
QuoteSeems like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass,
Maybe "Feels like giving" or "It feels like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass"?
It's just that starting with "seems" makes me expect a sentence along the lines of "seems like giving the rest of the Brigade a pass would result in so-and-so".
Quoteto warn him to work on his assignment
Not sure about "warn". 'Pester' or 'remind' or similar? Maybe even 'remind him not to slack off on his assignment'?
Pretty much all of these strike me as stylistic differences; I don't really see much issue with most of this phrasing myself. In particular, she uses 'warn' because she -would- hit Kyon with a stiff penalty if he slacked off on his assignment. That's not even her considering being a jerk; she gave him an assignment, he accepted it, and if he's not going to do it, he deserves a penalty.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 04:21:52 PM
Quoteand it might help to distract me out of some of the darker thoughts that have been running through my head today.
"distract me out of" seems odd. "distract me from" / "distract me away from"?
This one I'll use, the other two I'm chalking up to stylistic differences as well.
Okay. Stylistic differences basically describes it -- I don't really have a good grasp of the easygoing conversational style you're using for Haruhi. (Although I sort of wish I did...) What I posted is in fact about one half of all the things I was tempted to point out, but I'm certain the feedback I omitted would be even less interesting to you.
Hopefully, knowing what you found useful, the next time I C&C I'll be able to produce a better signal to noise ratio.
Well.
This was originally going to be chapter 4, but when we got to the end and saw 100k+ of text in the rearview mirror, we decided that perhaps releasing two chapters might be a better idea. Enjoy, and we'll look forward to the C&C. =3
Quote...actually, a chance to get out of the house for a bit would be nice-- And this time it'd be with my uncle instead of to chop wood for Aunt Rena. "Sure thing," I agree, nodding.
Sounds awkward. Maye replace 'to chop' with 'chopping'.
Quoteand I don't need to spend the rest of the afternoon at her irritated for doing either one.
Should that be 'irritated at her'? Also, you use use irritated again in the next sentence. Maybe change the second to annoyed.
QuoteThe whole Haruhi-Mikuru shopping scene
All I could hear was This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAf4bnzUbKg&feature=related)
QuoteThinking that, as I trudge toward the table where my cousins are mostly done eating.
Oddly incomplete thought. Either drop the 'as' or fold it into the next sentence.
Quote from: thepanda on February 12, 2012, 09:29:20 PMQuote...actually, a chance to get out of the house for a bit would be nice-- And this time it'd be with my uncle instead of to chop wood for Aunt Rena. "Sure thing," I agree, nodding.
Sounds awkward. Maye replace 'to chop' with 'chopping'.
Something about that feels off to me. Will re-word instead:
Quote from: revisionAnd this time it'd be spending time with my uncle instead of doing more menial labor for my aunts.
Quote from: thepanda on February 12, 2012, 09:29:20 PMQuoteThinking that, as I trudge toward the table where my cousins are mostly done eating.
Oddly incomplete thought. Either drop the 'as' or fold it into the next sentence.
Huh. Can't remember what happened here.
Yeah, drop the as.
Thanks for the comments, Panda. :)
Chapter 5
QuoteI square off with him, settling the shield on my arm; the nice thing about this being a dream is that all this armor doesn't actually wear more than a regular set of clothes would - I expect this kind of getup in the real world would weigh a ton!
actually weigh more
And that's about all I see for my quick sweep. I loved the dream in chapter five. Was that the Chimeric Lunar Sea? And the chariot chase-- my imagination keeps seeing it with Ben-Hur spliced in-between. And then the computer club president falls with a Wilhelm scream.
Thanks for the catches. Reworded:
QuoteShould that be 'irritated at her'? Also, you use use irritated again in the next sentence. Maybe change the second to annoyed.
Used annoyed the first time, and fixed the word order.
Quotethe nice thing about this being a dream is that all this armor isn't any heavier than a regular set of clothes - I expect this kind of getup in the real world would weigh a ton!
Straight correction would get a short repetition of 'weigh'.
And glad you liked the dream! I didn't really have anything specific in mind when setting up the dreamscape for this one; just stuff that Haruhi would find fun/weird/appropriately epic as needed.
Quote from: Halbarad on February 12, 2012, 10:21:19 PM
And glad you liked the dream! I didn't really have anything specific in mind when setting up the dreamscape for this one; just stuff that Haruhi would find fun/weird/appropriately epic as needed.
Heh. I've been playing Fate/Extra again, and there is a dungeon pretty much exactly like the beginning of the dream.
QuoteRather than waste my breath on a reply, I move in to attack! The fight is actually pretty uneven, though; he's got a lot longer reach with that giant axe, but I can move a lot quicker than he can since my sword's a lot smaller - so after I duck under his first swing, I jump in close and start slashing away at him.
As a general rule, don't use exclamation marks in narration. This...might actually work, given that it's first-person and Haruhi's POV, but it's a thing to generally avoid; it sounds like someone trying to generate excitement via punctuation rather than by actually making the scene exciting.
The fight scene looks quite good. It's not quite how I usually do it, since my fights are usually actually real and deadly serious, but the tone of it fits in just nicely with the dream. And Haruhi's typically over-the-top methods of winning are wonderful.
Loved it! The fight scene was good; light heated and silly. If you think it's lacking, or wanted to add more, I'd suggest ramping up the sword-fight a bit. Put more emphasis on the massive swings of the axe, crashing into the ground and splitting the earth. Let Haruhi catch one dead on with her shield, struggling before finally throwing him back. Something like that.
It's fine the way it is really, but if you wanted more, that's just a suggestion.
I can't really see technical stuff to point out, but one thing did stand out to me.
Quote"S...sorry," I manage. "I wasn't-- You never told me this was your plan, was all," I manage, almost mumbling, her fists still full of my coat, resting on my chest. The surprisingly clear worry on her face fades somewhat, though she doesn't move away.
I just can't hear Kyon stuttering. Maybe I need to go re-watch the anime (And in Japanese instead of English - I've noticed my idea of Kyon's voice is slightly different than yours due to that.) or re-read the novels, but Kyon stumbling over his words seems a bit off to me. (I noticed this in the epilogue of Sympathy as well, but Kyon was really, really shaken up at that point.)
Anyway, great work over all, and I can't wait to see how the story unfolds.
Taking the two chapters together, there is a lot of interesting development going on. Kyon's and Haruhi's interactions feel natural, though there seem to be some PoV changes where things are left vague, e.g., what was Haruhi's PoV concerning the first disconnection, or how during the last dream sequence Kyon -- and to a lesser extent Haruhi -- seems to be completely unconcerned about what happened on the previous time.
The amount of fan service and its on-your-face quality was more than I could find comfortable, and affected my ability to enjoy the story.
Killing another person in a dream, especially for entertainment, is something that I simply cannot see in a positive light, because it suggests that the dreamer actually derives pleasure from the act. Furthermore, the way it is portrayed here makes me believe that the reader is also supposed to find the act satisfying, but it only horrified me and made me question Haruhi's mental sanity. This single issue is in stark contrast with the rest of the story. I know that the few occasions when I haven't been in full control of my dream and gotten into a situation where I have to kill somebody to defend myself have reduced me to a nervous wreck for the rest of the night, unable to sleep ... but here the issue is portrayed as if it were some kind of a sport.
I'm not going to touch the Haruhi-specific issues, much, since Hal is writing her PoV.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 01:54:40 PMTaking the two chapters together, there is a lot of interesting development going on. Kyon's and Haruhi's interactions feel natural, though there seem to be some PoV changes where things are left vague, e.g., what was Haruhi's PoV concerning the first disconnection, or how during the last dream sequence Kyon -- and to a lesser extent Haruhi -- seems to be completely unconcerned about what happened on the previous time.
Oh? I thought I'd touched on it with Kyon -- he's concerned about why Haruhi left and that keeps him from playing around and doing anything 'fun' in his dream. I think I can bring it more into his thoughts that he's worried about it ... there's no reason to play with him thinking that it's not 'real', given his past experiences and Yuki's explanation.
Yeah -- I can see that this is a spot that can use a bit of refinement; the circumstances of Haruhi's disappearnace from the dream should weigh on him a bit more until he goes to make the phone call. I'll revise my part on that later tonight.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 01:54:40 PMKilling another person in a dream, especially for entertainment, is something that I simply cannot see in a positive light, because it suggests that the dreamer actually derives pleasure from the act. Furthermore, the way it is portrayed here makes me believe that the reader is also supposed to find the act satisfying, but it only horrified me and made me question Haruhi's mental sanity. This single issue is in stark contrast with the rest of the story. I know that the few occasions when I haven't been in full control of my dream and gotten into a situation where I have to kill somebody to defend myself have reduced me to a nervous wreck for the rest of the night, unable to sleep ... but here the issue is portrayed as if it were some kind of a sport.
This was Hal's more than mine, but....
After thinking about it, I can see an argument for Haruhi subjegating rather than destroying. As I understand, this is the kind of change that's harder to bring into a dream than just getting rid of an unwanted element, but I suspect that wouldn't stop Haruhi, would it? Yeah, I can see a case for her wanting to lord her victory over the defeated more than just pushing him off the screen and out-of-mind.
Anyway. Sorry the fanservice is bothering you (incidentally, the idiom is '
in-your-face' :p). In my research on lucid dreams, it turns out that 'fanservice' (to put it mildly) is one of the most popular things for people to actually do there, though. I was a bit surprised at first, but then, well ... human nature being what it is....
/me shrugs.
Anyway -- Hal also suggested you might want to join the IRC channel to discuss this (or other things in more detail), so I thought I'd pass that message along as well. In the meantime, I'll see what I can do for Kyon's seeming lack of concern for Haruhi (didn't want it to come across that way).
If the violence / killing is a problem, just have Haruhi blast him into the sky Team Rocket style as he swears revenge. =P
Actually, we talked about that -- he's going to be recurring (more likely than not) so I like the idea of him not being particularly perturbed, and showcasing that the 'fight' really is just a game. Something like, "Next time, Gadget!" or "I'll be back!" as he falls, so there's no ambiguity, while still fitting into the trope of ... can't recall off the top of my head. Ambiguous off-screen demise? Something like that? :p
Edit: Oh, yeah. "This was merely a setback!" Round two needs to be in the Computer Research Society's Terrace.
Yeah, the fight scene is meant to be more cartoonish/shonen-style in terms of scope; there's no blood, the 'death' is meant to be fairly ambiguous (he's falling off the cliff into a fogbank, basically), and the over-the-top nature of the 'deathblow' is meant to show that this isn't really anything serious. I'll probably change it up by having the prez screaming defiance even while he's falling, and having him as a recurring villain is not terribly unlikely.
In regards to the fanservice, that note regarding lucid dreams frequently involving sex is something I've been considering. I don't really envision taking this in any kind of lemon/lime/other-citrus-of-your-choice direction, but it does touch on an issue that isn't really brought up much in Haruhi fiction, at least; the characters are in their late teens here, and they're definitely becoming more aware of their sexuality in general.
The vehicle of sharing dreams gives them an opportunity to play around with this a bit more without much more risk than just embarrassment in front of the other (and I think they're both comfortable enough with each other to risk that at this point). It'll likely come across in the fic in the form of a lot of fanservice and teasing, just to see how much they can get a reaction out of each other.
The issue is, this is a lucid dream we are talking about, not a game nor a TV show. Lucid as in "for all practical purposes and what your senses are telling you, just like reality -- except slightly more real". So, when you kill another person, you experience it in the most personal possible way. You can feel how the knife cuts the flesh, how the hot blood and intestines spill between your fingers and make them slippery, you can smell the breath of your victim as he struggles, convulses and eventually stops moving; you are right there ... all the way until you wake up, screaming. Personally, I find the experience even worse than dying myself, or getting raped when it comes to that, because it directly assaults my self-image.
Finding some outlandish, completely unrealistic way to get rid of the villain should work -- anything that doesn't invoke actual, violent killing. Launching him to an orbit while he screams "I'll be back!" should be acceptable.
After Haruhi's first disappearance, Kyon does act as one would expect. It's more about Haruhi not mentioning the issue in any way, as when we see her the next time she's only thinking about the possible phone call, and we don't know what she actually tried to do and why it failed, as seen from her own perspective.
During the final dream sequence it's more about Kyon being, apparently, completely unconcerned about Haruhi's coercion during the previous time, and unwary of what she may have done/learned after that.
When people do ... unusual things in lucid dreams, it's a combination of them being able and the complete privacy provided by the environment, and this story is mostly lacking the privacy part. I certainly haven't been a prude, especially after finding out that in my dreams I can experience feelings that the real world denies me, though my adventures have been tempered by the fact that I cannot control other people in my dreams. But yes ... in the dreams I shamelessly accept anything that is offered. It still doesn't mean that I'd be particularly eager to entertain myself with mental images of Haruhi in a french maid uniform as seen from below.
If you don't mind, I would prefer to stay away from IRC. I have never used it but I've understood that it's a real-time communication channel, and that would be very stressful to use.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 03:13:27 PMFinding some outlandish, completely unrealistic way to get rid of the villain should work -- anything that doesn't invoke actual, violent killing. Launching him to an orbit while he screams "I'll be back!" should be acceptable.
I'm singling this out as a fairly good example of a constructive comment. Can I ask that you be a bit more forthcoming with suggestions in the future, instead of waiting for a reply or two to spring them? Suggestions are very welcome, and the 'you're doing it wrong!' feedback without suggestions is a bit harder to use.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 03:13:27 PMDuring the final dream sequence it's more about Kyon being, apparently, completely unconcerned about Haruhi's coercion during the previous time, and unwary of what she may have done/learned after that.
Sorry -- what coercion? You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 03:13:27 PMIt still doesn't mean that I'd be particularly eager to entertain myself with mental images of Haruhi in a french maid uniform as seen from below.
I'm ... not clear on what the issue or suggestion on this one is? In story at least, that whole thing was an accident (as Haruhi's thoughts should make it clear later). I'm pretty sure Haruhi wearing that outfit was also explained to be accidental on Haruhi's part (but she's got too much pride to admit it and put on something less revealing). Sorry -- is this a suggestion on something we could change to improve the story, or just a complaint? If it's the former, I'd like to hear more about it.
If it's the latter, I can only apologize.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 03:13:27 PMI have never used it but I've understood that it's a real-time communication channel, and that would be very stressful to use.
I thought that would be the case; it's why I never suggested it myself. >_>;;
That's understandable, so no worries about that.
Then again, maybe I should bow out of this discussion -- all of it seems to center around Hal's scenes instead of mine, for once.
The notion of Kyon involuntarily shrinking in response to Haruhi's questioning, I would say, just works. It encapsulates much of the difficulty of the whole situation. And it justifies the use of lucid dreaming specifically, for the purpose of character development and not just as a neat gimmick, since it gives Haruhi a basis on which to sympathize with Kyon's situation and his inability to reveal more information.
So, mad props on that one.
However.
QuoteShe looks irritated, though I'm not sure if it's at me or the whole situation. She stands up, giving me a perfect, unintentional view of--
Thinking about this part gives me a bit of a headache.
The mental image -- specifically of what a skirt looks like from underneath -- has to originate in
someone's mind. Given than Kyon's mental image is Haruhi as a threatening giant towering over him (which doesn't really make one think immediately "he would logically be looking up her skirt", and would probably instead result in some kind of Magic Skirt illusion when he was looking from below), and given Haruhi's subsequent musings, I can only assume that Haruhi was the one to (perhaps involuntarily) originate the notion, which is... almost okay... I guess... but it seems useful to track what sorts of impressions these moments are revealing. To me the implication is that Haruhi is accidentally flashing Kyon. In and of itself that would be fine, but given that dreams are extremely malleable, when reading this I have to keep putting aside the obvious background thought that, two or three seconds of picturing the wrong thing and they could wind up in an extremely awkward situation of the "let us
never speak of this again" variety. This results in a lot of tension I'm reading out of this that just isn't there in the narrative, according to its own premises.
This is less of an issue in situations like the fight scene or exploring the castle or in Hinamizawa, where they're caught up in an implicit narrative, and more of an issue when they're specifically confronting one another
and you deliberately bring fanservice (and thus awkward/sexual overtones) into the picture. Then it becomes like that joke about asking someone not to think of a monkey, except with a very unpleasant implied punchline.
I'm guessing this has some overlap with what sarsaparilla found distracting about the fanservice portions? Anyhow, that's what struck me personally as distracting.
I would go so far as to strongly suggest invoking Magic Skirt during the shrinking scene; perhaps lampshaded
later when Haruhi wakes up and realizes that, logically, he would have been able to see up her skirt, but it somehow didn't actually happen in the dream. This could have the benefit of firmly establishing that they're not going to get into any situation they don't explicitly
wish to get into (which is a rule that the skirt incident actually violates; it's...
someone's stray thought which neither one was intending to enter the dream), which fully mitigates the squick factor of fanservice situations being a stray thought away from inadvertent physical intimacy; and also, really, the skirt incident is a bit too much, piled onto an already tense scene which had been working well up to that point.
Actually, the more I think about this the less I like the implications of the skirt incident as written, and the less I can explain it. I think the key issue is that control of a dream is accomplished by mental imagery rather than physical actions, in a way that's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it, and so an incident where an awkward situation is produced without either of the characters specifically intending it to happen, throws the door to the idea that any sort of stray thought has a chance of manifesting in a manner fully visible to the other person. Even if nothing like that winds up happening, it makes the characters
feel like they're both in a vulnerable and risky situation by going into each other's dreams.
Wow, judging by how I can't seem to organize my thought process on that one, that really seems to have touched a nerve with my emotional side. Fascinating. (Again, I'm usually disconnected from my emotions; however, the emotions still exist and can make themselves known by affecting my ability to focus my mind properly on an emotional subject.) Just... it's not
such a big deal since I didn't find the implications until I went through the fic intending to C&C and thought about it carefully, moreover, I'm not about to waste time bringing my emotions online just so I can feel distressed by this. It's more like "oh, so this is what genuine squick is like. Fascinating."
(The above sounds kind of bitter. That's mostly because it's touching on my own issues, not the issues in the fic.)Uhm, anyhow. I just kind of feel bad now that this is an issue since so many of the other things in these chapters have been done right. The overall outcome that Kyon and Haruhi are communicating, the subplot where Haruhi tries to follow up on Kyon's clue... this is overall a far more substantial and interesting fic than what I'd been looking forward to (based specifically on this idea) even in my wildest, uhm, dreams.
Regarding killing dream characters -- actually, probably biased to remark on this in detail. My mind is probably in a similar place to sarsaparilla in that it apparently accords dream characters with an independent existence. It didn't occur to me that this is an issue in the chapter, since the dream characters even earlier work so obviously differently. Making the situation and the details of the fight even more cartoony and nonthreatening is certainly a safe bet.
One thing to keep in mind (echoing sars' latest comment on this): dreams are more realistic because they can recreate any combination of impressions, and that includes emotional content. Imagine if you could write video games, say, in which you could explicitly give the monsters a 'scary' attribute, and that would not only cause the player to
see the monster on screen, but actually
feel fear (independently of how scary or ridiculous it actually looks). That's
sort of the issue that you might start running into as you develop further dream sequences.
Overall: really good job, the fic is hitting its stride, feeling bad that one little thing is causing unpleasant implications and distracting me from the 95% that's excellent about this. It's not even going to prevent me from following the fic as you develop it further, but looking at the commentary I've offered above I'm
really not sure if it's going to be at all useful or not >_<
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2012, 03:51:50 PM
Sorry -- what coercion? You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?
Yes, Haruhi's behavior feels rather coercive (as it does while she's out 'shopping' with Mikuru, too).
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2012, 03:51:50 PMI'm ... not clear on what the issue or suggestion on this one is? In story at least, that whole thing was an accident (as Haruhi's thoughts should make it clear later). I'm pretty sure Haruhi wearing that outfit was also explained to be accidental on Haruhi's part (but she's got too much pride to admit it and put on something less revealing). Sorry -- is this a suggestion on something we could change to improve the story, or just a complaint?
It's more of a meta-fictional concern; unlike with the anime where I can decided by myself where to look, in a written work I have to share the point of view and the focus of the narrator, even when I'd rather look elsewhere, and that can be ... disagreeable, if I don't happen to also share the preferences of the narrator.
Basically, there's too much teasing / convenient accidents to my liking, but since it's just me, you can dismiss the issue as being irrelevant. The canon has some of that as well and I've tried to ignore it when present.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 04:17:52 PMQuote from: Brian on February 13, 2012, 03:51:50 PMSorry -- what coercion? You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?
Yes, Haruhi's behavior feels rather coercive (as it does while she's out 'shopping' with Mikuru, too).
Hmmm.... I can round out Kyon's conversation with Rika with his apprehension over things going wrong with Haruhi's investigation. That might work to help address that -- and then follow it up with him realizing they were so distracted by the nonsense-battle against the CRSP that it didn't cross his mind until he woke up to more bad news.
Chapter 5 is short in general, and especially Kyon's scenes -- so that suits me well. Does this sound like it might help address things?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 13, 2012, 04:17:52 PMIt's more of a meta-fictional concern; unlike with the anime where I can decided by myself where to look, in a written work I have to share the point of view and the focus of the narrator, even when I'd rather look elsewhere, and that can be ... disagreeable, if I don't happen to also share the preferences of the narrator.
Basically, there's too much teasing / convenient accidents to my liking, but since it's just me, you can dismiss the issue as being irrelevant. The canon has some of that as well and I've tried to ignore it when present.
Arakawa stated some very eloquent reasons why it could cause problems.
My issue is that I'm not familiar enough with lucid dreaming to grasp things like that intuitively; I forgot that nothing can happen if one of them doesn't want (or at least expect) it to on some level, which suddenly puts a layer of 'intent' into what was supposed to be an accident -- or else we need to lampshade that the shared space follows different rules. Hmm. It might actually be somewhat funny if Haruhi thinks Kyon did see up her skirt, but the reality of the situation is that that he wasn't thinking about it, and so the 'magic skirt' effect kicked in.
That'd also allow for the unexpectedness of the CRSP battle as being something both of them find amusing. Kyon just to tease Haruhi, and Haruhi for the really convenient change of subject.
To add a counterpoint in regards to the skirt issue -
I think the shrinking scene has a sort of interesting dualism going on. On one hand, there's a very serious discussion as Kyon struggle to come up with an explanation. At the same time, he's also struggling with the view.
Kyon is a bit of a perv. In both the anime and novels he absolutely cannot keep his eyes to himself, even though he tries to pretend otherwise. If anything, I'd say Kyon should draw a bit more attention to it. Maybe in the middle of his attempts to explain himself he blurts out with "Could you put some freaking pants on!"
At least in my experience, dreams are far more likely to reflect the logic of television, anime, and video games, so the magic skirt might be a decent option anyway.
QuoteI try very hard not to think about the idea I had briefly of summoning a Mikuru of some sort-- "Nothing at all!"
Asahina?
QuoteThough her grin doesn't diminish in the slightest, Haruhi's outfit remains.
If her mirth isn't diminished, is it unusual that Haruhi's outfit would remain?
Quote"My other aunts are Fuurude Rika, Houjou Shion, Houjou Satoko and Ryuugu Rena," I answer. "They've been visiting with my parents while I watch over the cousins, mostly."
Is it not (going by wiki) "Furude" and "Ryuuguu"?
QuoteI'm not about to tell anyone I had a dream that ended in a way that reminded me of an uncomfortable set of days last December! Aside from which, my family remember those same days very, very differently from me. A whole different set of things I don't want to talk about with them.
Is there some way to improve the "that ended in a way that" part? It feels like one of the "that"s could be cut with a restructuring.
QuoteYurie, providing a better behaved example, helps my little sister drag the exciteable little blue-haired girl to the gaming table with the rest of the cousins.
Excitable.
Quote"I sure didn't call you last night! How else would I have given you orders?"
Man, Haruhi's really gonna make him work for it. Good times.
Quote"I'm- I..." she splutters briefly, then shakes her head. "Okay, I can admit that I've thought about something like that, but there's no way it would ever go any further than that!"
For this moment, Asahina slips into tone and phrasing that is rather frank. "Okay, I can admit..." That approach seems like a deviation from how she usually acts. I think Asahina would be more reluctant while she admits such a flight of fancy unless it's intended as a glimpse of some inner personality we've yet to see. And despite my concern about the first half of the sentence, "there's no way it would ever go any further than that!" seems entirely appropriate.
In general, this scene with Asahina does do well to have Haruhi forge a better relationship there, to consider Asahina's feelings about being shown as a mascot. Very positive all around.
I like that Kyon justifies the thought of telling Haruhi the truth by thinking that Asahina deserves his protection as much as Nagato does. Not wanting to spill the beans unilaterally also makes sense, and trying to split the difference by telling her to seek out Nagato seems reasonable.
Quote"Friendship is important," she says solemly, even though I can see the hints of a smile in her eyes. "I'm sorry Kyon-kun has to be away from his friends. Even if they aren't close, keep them in your heart, doki doki!"
Solmenly.
QuoteThis is somehow more embarassing than shrinking in front of Haruhi in our dream!
Embarrassing.
QuoteI almost ask about Aunt Mion and Aunt Rika before remembering that as a community leaders, both of them are going to be occupied helping with the relief efforts. "You can count on me," I say, climbing up out of my futon and recieving a solemn clap on the shoulder from my uncle before he joins my father in the hall, both of them rushing towards the door.
Receiving.
Well then, an interesting couple of chapters. Things seem to be moving along at a good clip. Nagato having such a profound reaction to Haruhi's suspicions seems to slow things down and give them space to develop, which isn't bad, but we'll have to see what her explanation is for having such a reaction.
Finally, regarding IRC: though it is a real-time medium, one can enter the channel and refrain from sending any messages to it just to listen and get an idea of the pace of it, to become more acclimated to the notion if one chooses. Something to think about, sarsaparilla (or anyone else reluctant to venture in there), if at some point you wish to reconsider.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMQuoteI try very hard not to think about the idea I had briefly of summoning a Mikuru of some sort-- "Nothing at all!"
Asahina?
Ugh. I _keep doing this_. >_<
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMQuoteThough her grin doesn't diminish in the slightest, Haruhi's outfit remains.
If her mirth isn't diminished, is it unusual that Haruhi's outfit would remain?
No, another instance of my incorrect reflexive word usage. I am in a rut. @_@
Quote from: revisionHer grin not diminishing in the slightest, the rest of Haruhi's outfit remains as I changed it.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMIs it not (going by wiki) "Furude" and "Ryuuguu"?
Going with the corrections Hal made for K:BDH, actually. >_>;
Well -- consistency trumps accuracy, and all that. >_<
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMQuoteI'm not about to tell anyone I had a dream that ended in a way that reminded me of an uncomfortable set of days last December! Aside from which, my family remember those same days very, very differently from me. A whole different set of things I don't want to talk about with them.
Is there some way to improve the "that ended in a way that" part? It feels like one of the "that"s could be cut with a restructuring.
Ah ... hmm. Didn't really jar for me, but 'that' is a word which can get rather a lot of use. Either replace it with 'which' or 'that ended' becomes 'ending'. I ... think I'll go with the former.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMExcitable.
Eep-- I failed my spellcheck again. >_<
Unless mentioned, used all of your spelling/grammar corrections.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PMI like that Kyon justifies the thought of telling Haruhi the truth by thinking that Asahina deserves his protection as much as Nagato does. Not wanting to spill the beans unilaterally also makes sense, and trying to split the difference by telling her to seek out Nagato seems reasonable.
Excellent; glad to hear this aspect seems to be working. :D
Thanks for the feedback, Muphrid; naturally, I'll let Hal respond to comments on his scenes himself. :)
Quote from: Muphrid on February 13, 2012, 05:13:07 PM
Quote"I'm- I..." she splutters briefly, then shakes her head. "Okay, I can admit that I've thought about something like that, but there's no way it would ever go any further than that!"
For this moment, Asahina slips into tone and phrasing that is rather frank. "Okay, I can admit..." That approach seems like a deviation from how she usually acts. I think Asahina would be more reluctant while she admits such a flight of fancy unless it's intended as a glimpse of some inner personality we've yet to see. And despite my concern about the first half of the sentence, "there's no way it would ever go any further than that!" seems entirely appropriate.
In general, this scene with Asahina does do well to have Haruhi forge a better relationship there, to consider Asahina's feelings about being shown as a mascot. Very positive all around.
I can see the disconnect here, but I'm not entirely sure how to address it better. I do want to work on building a better relationship between Haruhi and Mikuru, and to do that Mikuru's -also- going to have to stretch beyond her usual frame of reference when relating to Haruhi; I figured this spot would work for it, since Haruhi isn't actually asking her something she has to skirt around.
I do tend to think there's a more inner personality that we haven't seen much of for Mikuru; not necessarily something drastically different than who we -have- seen, but so much of her personality as presented is her reacting to Haruhi or other events that I think it's just naturally obscured most of the time.
After consideration, just changed the wording in the line itself; Haruhi's already doing a lot of wheedling here, so adding to it could drive the scene towards the ridiculous. =P
Quote from: revision"And why not?" Spotting something on one of the displays towards the back of the store, I grab Mikuru's wrist and pull her along with me as I head towards my target - and on arrival, I jerk the costume off the display and thrust it into her hands. I can't help but grin as her eyes go wide. "You can't imagine serving tea in a French maid outfit?"
"I'm- I..." she splutters briefly, then shakes her head. "Okay, maybe I could _imagine_ doing something like that, but there's no way it would ever go any further than that!"
I was able to go back and summarize my objection, which means apparently I'm over this now, emotionally speaking! ^_^;; Anyhow, I saw the posted chapter and it seems to work so far; the real thing I'm curious to see now is how it goes from Haruhi's side.
After finding that the vast majority of what I noticed is covered by previous C&C, there's not much for me to add, really, except for one thing I may have given an incorrect impression of:
Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2012, 04:29:44 PM
My issue is that I'm not familiar enough with lucid dreaming to grasp things like that intuitively; I forgot that nothing can happen if one of them doesn't want (or at least expect) it to on some level, which suddenly puts a layer of 'intent' into what was supposed to be an accident -- or else we need to lampshade that the shared space follows different rules.
Just to correct a possibly-misleading impression: my own experience shows that, until you find the right attitude, your unconscious mind
can and
will throw unpleasant or embarrassing things at you even in a lucid dream. So, this is more of a case where you specifically need to establish that your shared dreams
don't work the same way as (some people's) lucid dreams on this point -- because otherwise you run into the issue that shared dreams in real life are apt to be disastrous.
It shouldn't be too difficult to establish the distinction between Kyon and Haruhi's unconscious minds being free to throw unexpected and even unwanted things at them (a concept you can have a lot of fun with), versus crossing the line into actively betraying and embarrassing them in front of each other.
That's a sound point, but breaking entirely with realism for the sake of good and proper storytelling:
If it wasn't working for other reasons anyway, that element can be pulled. While it's interesting, and adds a subtext, if it's overwhelming or distasteful, there's no reason not to back off on it. It's flavor, and in this instance, seems a _bit_ overspiced.
Case in point, the revisions keep events largely the same, without the gratuity. That seems fine, to me. >_>;
Anyway, to the point of establishing the differences between what's going on in this story as opposed to yours and Sarsaparilla's experiences.... In order to do this properly, we have to actually educate all readers who aren't you (or otherwise don't already have an understanding/expectation of how 'proper' lucid dreaming should work), first. Anyway ... I personally think it should be clear that this doesn't follow all the normal rules just because Haruhi's involved. All the same, the goal is to adhere to the guidelines of what we can expect the typical reader to understand/know about the idea, and then lampshade our differences deliberately.
It's also possible that my lucid dreaming is very different from yours (and hers) because of my specific mental-compartmentalization; for example, I am able to fully and completely reject 'unwanted' elements, or just leave them behind and go elsewhere in those few lucid dream(like thing)s I've had, which seems to be something that Sarsaparilla is unable to do.
Our minds don't work the same way, and we're not always going to follow the same rules. I've somewhat mentioned this before, but at one point in a lucid dream (or what I thought of as one), I found myself reliving an unpleasant experience from my past -- and I rejected it, being completely unwilling to endure it again. While I couldn't change the environment or the aggressors, I could remove myself from that place -- and did so by flying away and through a window (and the window's screen and bars, like smoke). This ties into Sarsaparilla's note that sometimes escaping from a nightmare can be a trigger for lucid dreaming; I think that's what happened there. (I spent the rest of the dream flying around like I was swimming, able to breathe underwater and looking for ... I forget that part. I enjoyed the sensation of floating, though.)
At the same time, lampshading that what Haruhi and Kyon are sharing is different probably _is_ in order, if only to stop betraying improperly set expectations.
Man, I'm slow. Brian was done with chapter 7 two weeks ago!
But at least chapter 6 is longer, HA HA.
I am a terrible person.
Here's chapter 6 for now; as always, feedback is appreciated in advance. =)
QuoteBut I don't really think that's the case here,
Should end with a period.
QuoteWhatever the reason, I'm particularly inclined to kick myself out of the dream, at least not yet.
Maybe change to -
"Whatever the reason, I'm not particularly inclined to kick myself out of the dream just yet."
Thanks for the catches, Panda. =) Both corrected.
Haruhi reacts to the end of last chapter, thinking how she can bug Kyon more when he gets back. She sleeps in later than usual, receives a mysterious phone call, and resolves to pay Kyon back for taking control of something she'd set up for her dream.
QuoteWell, one way or another, he'll be back in a few days, and I'm sure he'll be back to his usual lazy self - he can catch up on his sleep in class. As long as he's not napping during Brigade meetings, I don't honestly care myself, and I guess I could help him keep up, at least for a while.
After he disappeared, the dream kept going for a while, but it wasn't all that much fun. Mikuru was totally startled by Kyon disappearing, but it didn't bother her for more than a few minutes. Still, having what amounts to a puppet cheering for me just wasn't the same at all. Getting out of the dream was actually easier than I thought; I just pictured a giant switch - like something out of an old Frankenstein movie - and yanked it. Just like that, I found myself groggily blinking awake.
Repetition.
QuoteI didn't really have anything planned for today, though, so it didn't really bother me that much - and thanks to that, I've pretty much taken it easy. The only minor interruption happened shortly after I woke up; my cell phone rang once, but by the time I got out of bed to check on it, it had already stopped - and the number wasn't anything I recognized, so I'm guessing it was just a wrong number that they realized after they'd let the phone ring. It was enough to get me out of bed, at least - and it was pretty late, anyway - so that's not a terrible thing.
More repetition.
Haruhi visits Nagato, thinking it best to check up on her. Haruhi says she remembers the way from Valentine's, but didn't she and the rest of the brigade spent New Year's there, too, playing games?
She finds Kimidori and thinks that the student council's presence must mean it's serious. Well, it is, but not the way she thinks. Kimidori strangely doesn't even notice Haruhi until she turns to leave. One can wonder if Haruhi's powers keep Kimidori from noticing; nevertheless, I feel like the reason this happens should be important. Certainly Haruhi hears a lot more than was meant for her ears.
Quote"Ah- Suzumiya-san! I... didn't expect to see you here!" She tries to give me a smile, but I'm not buying it after that... whatever it was she did to Yuki. A threat? A warning? I'm not even sure, but whatever it was, it didn't sound good!
Repetition.
QuoteI can't resist a parting shot, though. "Ever manage to find another boyfriend, at least?" I call out mockingly.
So now Haruhi
does make the connection between Kimidori the secretary and Kimidori the client. This actually seems a bit mean-spirited, not unjustly, but it doesn't follow unless Haruhi thinks the boyfriend thing was a sham all along.
Haruhi starts to question Nagato hard, who insists she can't relay any information on her own.
QuoteYuki nods. "The assistance I would offer would be contingent on your words to Kimidori Emiri - it may entail considerable risk for myself. If you are still willing to assist me at need, I will work to ensure that no other parties are able to interfere with your own investigation of the members of the SOS Brigade."
Perhaps "as needed"? Also, I notice you use reflexives (e.g. myself) quite often.
Haruhi reasons out her opinion of Nagato's trustworthiness, why she can't speak (hostage situation, good reason; brainwashing, heh), and that Kyon must've been told directly. Haruhi offers her support to Nagato, despite her doubts, and this seems to inspire some relief and confidence. I think that speech in particular is a highlight of this passage.
Haruhi reflects on what she's going to do next.
QuoteYuki... I don't know much more about her situation than I did before I talked to her, but I know she has a situation at least; I suppose the fact that neither she nor Mikuru can actually say anything about their situations directly is another good piece of information, since it does lend some real gravity to what's going on. I don't really think it can be some kind of silly prank if that's really true - and if it's not, Yuki and Kyon are both going to be in some serious hot water! But I don't really think that's the case here,
Repetitions of real and really and such.
Haruhi concludes that investigating Koizumi is safest, so she calls him up and invites him to meet at the station.
QuoteSurprisingly, it really doesn't take Koizumi long to arrive at all. Yuki's apartment is a few minutes' walk away from Kitaguchi Station, so by the time I've finished walking back to our usual meet-up location I only end up waiting a minute or two for him.
Given that Nagato asked Kyon to meet her at Kouyouen Station with the bookmark and that...there's other stuff that tells me her complex is nearer to Kouyouen, I suspect this may need adjustment?
Quote"Nope, I was just checking in on her - she came over to visit yesterday and ended up having to head home because she wasn't feeling well, so I was just checking in on her to make sure she was doing better," I explain.
Repetition.
Haruhi and Koizumi chat at a new and different cafe, and this is where Koizumi has to go into his conceit about the bookstore. Koizumi has to be prodded to even give a name to the place.
And Taniguchi is their server. Haruhi goes for the in-your-face route as far as intimidating him not to squeal about this meeting and misinterpret it. I did find myself wondering if Haruhi could've done something less overtly hostile to keep Taniguchi in line.
QuoteWith that, I push Taniguchi back out of the way and stalk out of the cafe. I can't help but cringe at the thought of having to tell Kyon about this - I can already see the smirk on his face - but really, better that I say something than he finds out from that pervert, which would be even worse.
I think the hypothetical nature of it makes it "than he find" without an
s.
Quote...well, I guess it's not entirely a loss. I did get more information about Koizumi's part time job, at least; that'll give me something new to look into tomorrow.
Most of the time you do "part-time," and I think there's at least one other place you forget the dash.
Haruhi finds herself in a lucid dream again.
QuoteThe last time I ended up in a lucid dream this many nights in a row, I could barely keep my eyes open - and really, I'd been feeling pretty tired even before then. Even so, this time it's the fourth night in a row that I've been in the dream like this - maybe I'm actually getting more used to sleeping like this?
Repetition.
QuoteI was expecting to see that I was in some kind of spaceship just leaving the atmosphere, but no - what's below me is some kind of ridiculously tall tower, made of this same weird blue metal. There are several odd protrusions and other structures popping out of the main tower itself, from what I can see, and a long way further down I can see a big ring of what looks like normal land surrounding the tower itself - but even that's above the clouds, and it keeps me from seeing whether the main shaft actually goes through the clouds or not - but I suspect it does even without seeing it.
Repetition.
I'm not sure where this dream fits in with the grand scheme of things, but I expect it must.
Haruhi doesn't relate any ill-effects from having visited lucid dreamland again; instead, she invites Asahina to meet and investigate Koizumi's job.
QuoteI shrug a bit; I can be honest about my original suspicions, even if they've changed a bit recently. "Honestly? It's just way too convenient the way he calls out of Brigade meetings on short notice sometimes - I've wondered a few times if it was just an easy excuse to skip when he didn't feel like it, but most times he's done it I haven't really been in any kind of mood to follow up on it."
QuoteThe Brigade mascot nods thoughtfully. "That makes sense... well, I can't see any harm in checking up on it then - although where exactly is it that he works?"
[...]
Mikuru nods thoughtfully as we get closer. As I can see more of the building, I can't help but notice how run-down it seems; the shop windows themselves seem pretty dirty, and while there are planters all around the building, most of the hedges planted in them are dead.
There's one paragraph between, but the constructions lead their respective paragraphs, so, again, repetition, times two.
The bookshop is run down with dead plants and dust. Haruhi comments on how the owner bears little resemblance to Koizumi (presumably, he's hired by the espers, if he isn't one himself, so no surprise).
QuoteI catch sight of what's got her attention and move a bit further along the back wall myself, just to be on the safe side - although pretty much all of these shelves look that sloppy. "As far as books go, nothing really - it's more about checking the place out, seeing if we can find out anything about Koizumi-kun working here." I can't help but speak in low tones myself - it may not be a library, but being among so many books makes it hard not to think that way.
This captures what I was talking about, regarding the overuse of reflexive pronouns.
Haruhi and Asahina find that the "used" books are practically new, but in replacing one on the shelf, a box falls and nearly hits Asahina. It's described simply enough that Haruhi could've done it without any supernatural assistance--just her own strength would be enough. Asahina seems very grateful, and Haruhi tries to make further progress in their relationship by encouraging Asahina to address her on a first-name basis.
Classes resume, but Kyon doesn't appear, and Haruhi calls his phone to no avail.
Quote"Well, that's just great," I huff, sitting down so forcefully in my seat that the chair bangs against the wall. "Nothing on his house phone either - I've thought about calling his aunt out in the country to find out if they got held up in the country, but I can't see that happening and them not calling the school office about it."
You know the drill by now.
QuoteI'm about to snap back at him in reply, then I stop - he does have a point. "Hmm, you're right - there's no way I'm going to leave things like this, but if things are that bad in the village where he's staying, then we're definitely going to have to be prepared if we're going to get him out!"
On repeat, on repeat...
QuoteShe cringes at that, but it's Koizumi that comes to her rescue this time. "I think what Asahina-san meant to imply is that from your description, it doesn't actually sound like he's in immediate danger - perhaps we can allow the JSDF and the Department of Public Works to take care of retrieving those that are stranded, and help in some other means?"
Is there actually a Department (and not, say, a ministry?) of Public Works?
QuoteI don't like it, to be honest; I don't disagree that giving donations to places like that is a good thing to do, but it doesn't actually do anything to help Kyon. I'm about to tell Koizumi just that, too, but then a sneaky idea works it way into my head. A fundraiser to help with the relief efforts is definitely a good idea... but the agency they'll be going to is the SOS Brigade! There's no way I'm going to get talked out of going up there to do something to help myself, but if we're going to do it - especially if it's more than just me that's going - we're going to need money for train tickets and other things to prepare. And we can turn it into a real relief trip too - but that means we need to buy supplies and other things to take with us when we go, and that means money, too.
Not all of these "going"s need to be axed, but pointed out for reference.
And Haruhi comes up with a clever plan.
QuoteMikuru looks startled at being called out, but gives me a hesitant nod; Koizumi's affirmation is more emphatic. "Right! Since everyone has their assignments, that's what we're going to be working on for the rest of today! Koizumi-kun, Mikuru-chan, you're dismissed - but I'll be checking in with you tomorrow at lunchtime for a progress report, since we're going to have to move fast on this!"
Because Koizumi is described right before dialogue, for a moment it gives the impression he's speaking, which is clearly not what's intended.
QuoteGiven her usual quiet demeanor, I don't wait for an affirmative reply before I press on. "For now, I want you to work on that part - it's probably not going to be easy for us to get up there if the roads are so bad or if it's still dangerous up there. What you'll need to do is figure out how we get up there - how far can we go safely, how dangerous you think it'll be after that, what kind of supplies we'll need for the trip, how much it'll cost - as many details as you think you can put together.
Repetition.
Naturally, one expects that the IDSE have something to do with this predicament, but since Nagato helped notify Kyon of how Haruhi had helped facilitate their lucid dreaming communication, do the IDSE (outside of Nagato) not know that Haruhi can contact him? If so, then trapping Kyon in a landslide is pointless, because they can't stop that line of communication short of making it impossible for him to dream. If only Nagato knows about the dreaming, that's fair then.
Overall, I like the progress Haruhi has made with Asahina and Nagato; with Nagato agreeing to back Haruhi's play, it's already paying off, even though Haruhi has yet to find the answers she's been looking for.
Thanks for the C&C. Spoilering to cut down on scrolling.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Haruhi reacts to the end of last chapter, thinking how she can bug Kyon more when he gets back. She sleeps in later than usual, receives a mysterious phone call, and resolves to pay Kyon back for taking control of something she'd set up for her dream.
QuoteWell, one way or another, he'll be back in a few days, and I'm sure he'll be back to his usual lazy self - he can catch up on his sleep in class. As long as he's not napping during Brigade meetings, I don't honestly care myself, and I guess I could help him keep up, at least for a while.
After he disappeared, the dream kept going for a while, but it wasn't all that much fun. Mikuru was totally startled by Kyon disappearing, but it didn't bother her for more than a few minutes. Still, having what amounts to a puppet cheering for me just wasn't the same at all. Getting out of the dream was actually easier than I thought; I just pictured a giant switch - like something out of an old Frankenstein movie - and yanked it. Just like that, I found myself groggily blinking awake.
Repetition.
Killed the second 'back' and the second 'for a while'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI didn't really have anything planned for today, though, so it didn't really bother me that much - and thanks to that, I've pretty much taken it easy. The only minor interruption happened shortly after I woke up; my cell phone rang once, but by the time I got out of bed to check on it, it had already stopped - and the number wasn't anything I recognized, so I'm guessing it was just a wrong number that they realized after they'd let the phone ring. It was enough to get me out of bed, at least - and it was pretty late, anyway - so that's not a terrible thing.
More repetition.
Killed the first one.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Quote"Ah- Suzumiya-san! I... didn't expect to see you here!" She tries to give me a smile, but I'm not buying it after that... whatever it was she did to Yuki. A threat? A warning? I'm not even sure, but whatever it was, it didn't sound good!
Repetition.
Killed the second one. I was bad about this in this chapter. ._.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteYuki nods. "The assistance I would offer would be contingent on your words to Kimidori Emiri - it may entail considerable risk for myself. If you are still willing to assist me at need, I will work to ensure that no other parties are able to interfere with your own investigation of the members of the SOS Brigade."
Perhaps "as needed"? Also, I notice you use reflexives (e.g. myself) quite often.
Actually, reasons to have both here. "As needed" has more of an implication that Yuki will periodically ask for assistance, where "at need" doesn't seem to carry that implication - it's more of an 'if I absolutely need your help, I'll ask for it', at least in my mind. I'll keep an eye out on the reflexives as well, but it's kind of needed in this case at least.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteYuki... I don't know much more about her situation than I did before I talked to her, but I know she has a situation at least; I suppose the fact that neither she nor Mikuru can actually say anything about their situations directly is another good piece of information, since it does lend some real gravity to what's going on. I don't really think it can be some kind of silly prank if that's really true - and if it's not, Yuki and Kyon are both going to be in some serious hot water! But I don't really think that's the case here,
Repetitions of real and really and such.
Went with nothing/'really'/'honestly' respectively.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Given that Nagato asked Kyon to meet her at Kouyouen Station with the bookmark and that...there's other stuff that tells me her complex is nearer to Kouyouen, I suspect this may need adjustment?
Thanks for the catch. I was under the impression that Yuki's apartment was closer to the downtown district than the school, but it's a minor point in the grand scheme of things. Updated to say she took the train as well for consistency.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Quote"Nope, I was just checking in on her - she came over to visit yesterday and ended up having to head home because she wasn't feeling well, so I was just checking in on her to make sure she was doing better," I explain.
Repetition.
Used 'stopping by' for the second.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
And Taniguchi is their server. Haruhi goes for the in-your-face route as far as intimidating him not to squeal about this meeting and misinterpret it. I did find myself wondering if Haruhi could've done something less overtly hostile to keep Taniguchi in line.
My line of thought here was mostly that Haruhi's had quite a long time to get to know how Taniguchi operates - they were in the same class in middle school, after all. The thinking was "he's going to blab no matter what I do, but he's already at least partly afraid of me - threatening him is probably the only real hope I've got to get him to keep his mouth shut." It's nothing she'd ever actually follow through on (mostly because it'd only make matters worse), but she doesn't have the patience or inclination to try a more positive method of persuasion with him when something a lot simpler is just as likely to work (or not, as the case may end up being).
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteWith that, I push Taniguchi back out of the way and stalk out of the cafe. I can't help but cringe at the thought of having to tell Kyon about this - I can already see the smirk on his face - but really, better that I say something than he finds out from that pervert, which would be even worse.
I think the hypothetical nature of it makes it "than he find" without an s.
Fixed.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Quote...well, I guess it's not entirely a loss. I did get more information about Koizumi's part time job, at least; that'll give me something new to look into tomorrow.
Most of the time you do "part-time," and I think there's at least one other place you forget the dash.
Fixed this one, the other place it isn't appropriate ("he works part time for his uncle doing...")
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteThe last time I ended up in a lucid dream this many nights in a row, I could barely keep my eyes open - and really, I'd been feeling pretty tired even before then. Even so, this time it's the fourth night in a row that I've been in the dream like this - maybe I'm actually getting more used to sleeping like this?
Repetition.
Ugh.
Replaced the first 'this [many]' with 'a few', took out 'this time' at the second occurrence of 'this', reworded at the second 'like this' (although I can't see a way to ditch a 'this' in there): "maybe I'm actually getting used to this kind of sleep?"
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI was expecting to see that I was in some kind of spaceship just leaving the atmosphere, but no - what's below me is some kind of ridiculously tall tower, made of this same weird blue metal. There are several odd protrusions and other structures popping out of the main tower itself, from what I can see, and a long way further down I can see a big ring of what looks like normal land surrounding the tower itself - but even that's above the clouds, and it keeps me from seeing whether the main shaft actually goes through the clouds or not - but I suspect it does even without seeing it.
Repetition.
Mrf. Replaced the second with 'central column'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
I'm not sure where this dream fits in with the grand scheme of things, but I expect it must.
Haruhi doesn't relate any ill-effects from having visited lucid dreamland again; instead, she invites Asahina to meet and investigate Koizumi's job.
This is actually an oversight; moved the line about repeated lucid dreaming to this point, since she'd be noticing it more in the morning than during the dream itself.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI shrug a bit; I can be honest about my original suspicions, even if they've changed a bit recently. "Honestly? It's just way too convenient the way he calls out of Brigade meetings on short notice sometimes - I've wondered a few times if it was just an easy excuse to skip when he didn't feel like it, but most times he's done it I haven't really been in any kind of mood to follow up on it."
QuoteThe Brigade mascot nods thoughtfully. "That makes sense... well, I can't see any harm in checking up on it then - although where exactly is it that he works?"
[...]
Mikuru nods thoughtfully as we get closer. As I can see more of the building, I can't help but notice how run-down it seems; the shop windows themselves seem pretty dirty, and while there are planters all around the building, most of the hedges planted in them are dead.
There's one paragraph between, but the constructions lead their respective paragraphs, so, again, repetition, times two.
=_=
First case: 'sometimes' stays, second time 'a few times' -> 'occasionally', left the third in (it's not a same-word repetition, and should hopefully stick out less against 'sometimes' by itself.)
Second case: Changed second to 'pensively'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI catch sight of what's got her attention and move a bit further along the back wall myself, just to be on the safe side - although pretty much all of these shelves look that sloppy. "As far as books go, nothing really - it's more about checking the place out, seeing if we can find out anything about Koizumi-kun working here." I can't help but speak in low tones myself - it may not be a library, but being among so many books makes it hard not to think that way.
This captures what I was talking about, regarding the overuse of reflexive pronouns.
This strikes me as more of a straight repetition issue; variations on '(my|your|him|her)self' only occur 25 times in the chapter overall, which doesn't strike me as unusual or out of line for a 10k word chapter. Definitely correcting the repetition here (removed the first 'myself'), but I'm not certain it's a wider issue, given that.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Quote"Well, that's just great," I huff, sitting down so forcefully in my seat that the chair bangs against the wall. "Nothing on his house phone either - I've thought about calling his aunt out in the country to find out if they got held up in the country, but I can't see that happening and them not calling the school office about it."
You know the drill by now.
Sadly, I do. Replaced the second with 'on the way back'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI'm about to snap back at him in reply, then I stop - he does have a point. "Hmm, you're right - there's no way I'm going to leave things like this, but if things are that bad in the village where he's staying, then we're definitely going to have to be prepared if we're going to get him out!"
On repeat, on repeat...
;_;
You also missed repetition of 'things' in the same line.
Quote from: Revision...there's no way we're going to sit back and do nothing, but if things are that bad in the village where he's staying, then we'll definitely need to be prepared if we're going to get him out!"
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Is there actually a Department (and not, say, a ministry?) of Public Works?
Looks like the actual agency in question is the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Land,_Infrastructure_and_Transport_%28Japan%29), but that's a hell of a mouthful, even for Koizumi. I can change it over to Ministry, but from the looks of the article 'Road Transport Bureau' might be the best (and least wordy) option there. Definitely interested in other opinions, though.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteI don't like it, to be honest; I don't disagree that giving donations to places like that is a good thing to do, but it doesn't actually do anything to help Kyon. I'm about to tell Koizumi just that, too, but then a sneaky idea works it way into my head. A fundraiser to help with the relief efforts is definitely a good idea... but the agency they'll be going to is the SOS Brigade! There's no way I'm going to get talked out of going up there to do something to help myself, but if we're going to do it - especially if it's more than just me that's going - we're going to need money for train tickets and other things to prepare. And we can turn it into a real relief trip too - but that means we need to buy supplies and other things to take with us when we go, and that means money, too.
Not all of these "going"s need to be axed, but pointed out for reference.
Quote from: RevisionI don't like it, to be honest; I don't disagree that giving donations to places like that is a good thing to do, but it doesn't actually do anything to help Kyon. I'm about to tell Koizumi just that, too, but then a sneaky idea works it way into my head. A fundraiser to help with the relief efforts is definitely a good idea... but the agency they'll be going to is the SOS Brigade! There's no way I'm getting talked out of heading up there to do something to help, but if we're doing that - especially if it's more than just me that's going - we'll need money for train tickets and other things to prepare. And we can turn it into a real relief trip too - but that means we need to buy supplies and other things to take with us when we go, and that means money, too.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
And Haruhi comes up with a clever plan.
QuoteMikuru looks startled at being called out, but gives me a hesitant nod; Koizumi's affirmation is more emphatic. "Right! Since everyone has their assignments, that's what we're going to be working on for the rest of today! Koizumi-kun, Mikuru-chan, you're dismissed - but I'll be checking in with you tomorrow at lunchtime for a progress report, since we're going to have to move fast on this!"
Because Koizumi is described right before dialogue, for a moment it gives the impression he's speaking, which is clearly not what's intended.
Just shifted Haruhi's dialogue to a new line.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
QuoteGiven her usual quiet demeanor, I don't wait for an affirmative reply before I press on. "For now, I want you to work on that part - it's probably not going to be easy for us to get up there if the roads are so bad or if it's still dangerous up there. What you'll need to do is figure out how we get up there - how far can we go safely, how dangerous you think it'll be after that, what kind of supplies we'll need for the trip, how much it'll cost - as many details as you think you can put together.
Repetition.
Replaced the first with 'make it into Hinamizawa'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 15, 2012, 03:11:15 AM
Overall, I like the progress Haruhi has made with Asahina and Nagato; with Nagato agreeing to back Haruhi's play, it's already paying off, even though Haruhi has yet to find the answers she's been looking for.
Good to hear that it worked for you. =) Haruhi will be finding out more about everyone, but Koizumi's the soft target for now.
Okay, standard disclaimers apply. I'm really lacking in confidence on this, even though I finished it a week or three ago. >_>;;
Hopefully I haven't scared all potential commentors away. :x
Amusingly, a lucid dream was triggered by the posting of this chapter. (I was going to take up winged sandals and a giant hammer and go on an over-the-top comedic rampage to blow off steam, but the hardware turned out to be trickier to operate than I'd expected.)
Quote from: Brian on March 21, 2012, 06:57:01 PM
Hopefully I haven't scared all potential commentors away. :x
Didn't really comment on the last chapter since everyone seems to have things well in hand and I had nonsense of my own to deal with :_^;;
That said,
QuoteThinking that, I pick up the reciever at Uncle Keiichi's desk and dial.
That would probably be 'receiver'.
Quotegranduer that Haruhi put into it is still lingering,
'grandeur'
Quote"Welcome to Tutoria!" he replies. "You're so fortunate! Today is our yearly celebration -- the annual Festival of the Pushable Cube!"
*hrk*
(It's always amusing when a dream decides to lampshade itself.)
QuoteI'm a bit less surprised when she turns to face me with an amused smirk, holding up the thing that I'd left for her as a message.
Already, I can tell by the spark in her eyes that this is something she will never, ever let me live down. I console myself with the fact that she's not upset -- my message got that much through to her, at least.
Really, the only quibble with the chapter so far is here. Namely, I assume what the message is (and what's so embarassing about it) will be revealed next chapter, but the way it's written made me feel like I'd missed something on the first reading, so I had to scroll up to check. (Nope, just says it's one of Shutaro's toys.) I'm not sure what to suggest to make this flow more smoothly, or if it's even a big enough deal to fix.
I... don't really see where the lack of confidence is coming from. There are enough story elements being done just right that, even if something does end up being weird/objectionable about future chapters, it probably won't require any major overhauls.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AMAmusingly, a lucid dream was triggered by the posting of this chapter. (I was going to take up winged sandals and a giant hammer and go on an over-the-top comedic rampage to blow off steam, but the hardware turned out to be trickier to operate than I'd expected.)
Think about the results more than the means to achieve it. :p
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AMDidn't really comment on the last chapter since everyone seems to have things well in hand and I had nonsense of my own to deal with :_^;;
Ah, well, hope those clear up for you. :x
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AM'grandeur'
Thanks for those catches. :D
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AM*hrk*
(It's always amusing when a dream decides to lampshade itself.)
Also a slight in-joke; I've used that term to describe the first arc of most games myself. :p
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AMReally, the only quibble with the chapter so far is here. Namely, I assume what the message is (and what's so embarassingabout it) will be revealed next chapter, but the way it's written made me feel like I'd missed something on the first reading, so I had to scroll up to check. (Nope, just says it's one of Shutaro's toys.) I'm not sure what to suggest to make this flow more smoothly, or if it's even a big enough deal to fix.
Well, setup for a joke I think is better delivered from Haruhi's PoV than Kyon's. >_>;;
My main concern is that Kyon's side of things is relatively dull. :x
I could have put more clues in for what Kyon left behind, but have decided it's better to leave things as-is for now. <_<;;
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AMI... don't really see where the lack of confidence is coming from. There are enough story elements being done just right that, even if something does end up being weird/objectionable about future chapters, it probably won't require any major overhauls.
Alrighty, that's reassuring. I'm just having poor confidence because of ... eh, yearly issues. The same things that always get to me; just a bad time. I'm sure it'll blow over soon.
Thanks for the comments, Arakawa.
Quote from: Brian on March 22, 2012, 03:23:50 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 06:36:45 AMAmusingly, a lucid dream was triggered by the posting of this chapter. (I was going to take up winged sandals and a giant hammer and go on an over-the-top comedic rampage to blow off steam, but the hardware turned out to be trickier to operate than I'd expected.)
Think about the results more than the means to achieve it. :p
The other issue is that I apparently have very good inhibitors against going on a rampage of any description. Even in a lucid dream against a Kafkaesque bureaucracy trying to jail me for credit card fraud...
I'm not sure that this chapter is particularly slow compared to other ones. I guess it felt that way because the only canon character in it is Kyon, so all of the interactions with the OCs are of secondary importance? It depends on how one feels about the cousins, among other things. Personally, I started to appreciate them about this chapter. The suggestion that they've found Kyon's book conjured the (probable red herring of a) mental image of them bursting into Kyon and Haruhi's dream at some inconvenient moment.
I think even people who caustically don't give a damn about the Hinamizawa subplot will last through it. There's a setup from the point Kyon leaves the message to the end of the chapter (where Haruhi finds it), which happens to give the bored reader something to skim forward to. If for some reason you're really concerned that they won't last through the first half, you could figure out some way to patch a similar setup/payoff into the first half (setup during the end of the last chapter, payoff around the point Kyon has the dream where he leaves the message?).
Or maybe you could work on making the setting (aftermath of storms and flooding) more interesting/palpable. Sure, Kyon isn't one to wax poetic about nature, but Hinamizawa during and after a storm has got to be more impressive to him than the suburbs of Osaka, on some level. That could be given the chance to come through a bit more, particularly since he spends the chapter trudging back and forth through the scenery in question.
I guess it might be necessary to find someone who is actively uninterested in the Hinamizawa portion of the fic and ask their opinion if you want to be absolutely sure, but I don't
think any such modifications are necessary -- the suggestions are more if you for some reason feel you have to change
something to be satisfied. In the end not everything has to be snappily paced drama.
Quote from: Brian on March 22, 2012, 03:23:50 PM
Alrighty, that's reassuring. I'm just having poor confidence because of ... eh, yearly issues. The same things that always get to me; just a bad time. I'm sure it'll blow over soon.
Personally, I just went through allergy season (not sure when/if that happens where you are). That explains most of my problem; fortunately environmental conditions have let up.
Thankfully, no eczema this year (so far). Just brain not working the way I need it to. Allergies can mess you up in really subtle ways :-/
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on March 22, 2012, 03:56:52 PMI guess it might be necessary to find someone who is actively uninterested in the Hinamizawa portion of the fic and ask their opinion if you want to be absolutely sure, but I don't think any such modifications are necessary -- the suggestions are more if you for some reason feel you have to change something to be satisfied. In the end not everything has to be snappily paced drama.
I'll keep my eyes peeled for the opinions of anyone less receptive to the original characters, then. That'll be good to know for balance.
Thanks again for the comments.
Edit: Based on comments from Hal, I went ahead and removed the very small final scene.
Kyon awakens from when last we saw him with Haruhi.
QuoteA glance at the clock reveals that it's shortly after one in the morning; properly, I'll need to wait until after sunrise before calling. That plan in mind, I feel like Sasaki Kojiro, waiting for Miyamoto Musashi to show up for the duel. And much like that historical figure, I expect I will be defeated in our encounter.
I'm not sure I understand the significance of "properly"?
Hearing a child's wail outside, he ventures into the rain.
QuoteBlue hair, sharply focused gaze, the glint of metal in one hand--
I can't help it; a scream of alarm escapes my throat and I almost fall over in my panic before the rest of her features absorb into my brain and I realize it's not.... Not her. I recognize my aunt Rika before the next flash of lightning; she's standing next to me, giving the flashlight a firm shake to get it working again. I keep from sprawling into the mud, ironically both comforted and physically supported when Matsuri -- wailing again -- emerges from the darkness and glomps onto my leg. A moment later, her younger brother follows suit, both of them shaking as the thunder rumbles through.
Hah. This is really clever.
Rika says she's going to the srhine and leaves Matsuri and Shutaro with Kyon. The three of them head inside, with Rena taking care of the younger children and taking them to the bath.
QuoteTaking stock of the shoes, Satoko and Shion (and their children) are the only ones missing. This time, I have the foresight to grab a flashlight before stepping outside -- though like Aunt Rika's, it needs a good shake before it lights up.
They are still his aunts, right?
QuoteProperly armed this time, I step into the darkness, looking down the road for a glimpse of their own flashlights as they hike through the onslaught to the relative safety of Aunt Mion's home.
Their and they refer to Satoko and Shion, right? The next paragraph goes straight to the two of them bringing their children in, which leads me to think that Kyon doesn't just look for a glimpse of their flashlights but actually sees them, which wasn't clear to me at first.
Kyon and Rena stand watch in the living room.
QuoteNeither myself or her mother begrudge the girl from curling up near Aunt Rena's side and falling asleep at the kotatsu with us. That does mean that I'm the one who has to go attend any of the children when they need help, but that little bit of activity is actually a welcome distraction on a night like this.
How do you feel about "nor" instead of "or"?
The sun comes up, and Kyon goes to call Haruhi, but the power goes out right as he's ringing her. Ouch, Kyon. Bad timing.
Rena tells Kyon' he's relieved, and he gets some sleep.
Kyon's mother wakes him, telling him how the village has been cut off from the outside thanks to a mudslide; they won't be going anywhere for a while.
QuoteBut what can I do? Of all the people I know, I can't but think all of them would be better able to handle this than I am. I don't have powers, or amazing abilities; there's really not anything I can do to help. If Haruhi were here, she'd....
Perhaps "I can't
help but think"?
Kyon convines himself to do something to help out instead of moping, so he takes an assignment from Mion to take tea to the school and bring back the short-wave radio. One thing I notice here is that Kyon's justification of his motivation--that he can't face Haruhi saying he shrank from a challenge or a task--seems a bit quickly given, but it also seems like a good follow-up on the last time he spoke with her.
Quote"Thank you, Kyon-kun," Aunt Mion says with a tired smile, giving me a nod before she yawns. "Ah-- I need to rest while I can; Satoko-chan should give you something to eat and show you where the tea is. Be very careful, now, alright?"
If it's not inconsistent with something already established, doesn't Mion refer to her as simply "Satoko"?
Kyon trudges out into the mud, a little beat still but otherwise intact. He makes it to the school, and Rika's there to take the tea and give him the radio. He starts heading back.
QuoteI might pause to rest for a bit if I weren't alone in a world of falling water and gusting winds. The idea of getting back into a warm house and drying off is ample motivation, and I think I have to aknowledge that the hill leading to school has hardened me quite a bit. This hike isn't nearly as bad, even if I do have the extra weight of the radio on my back!
Acknowledge.
QuoteThere's another battery-powered lantern in the changing room, so after I throw my wet clothes in a pile, I gladly move on to the washroom proper, hanging the light-source from a dangling overhead hook. Power-outages aren't that rare in bad weather here, so that spares me having to figure out where to put the lantern to keep it dry.
Maybe just "Power outages"?
QuoteAnother levee was reinforced somewhat, but only enough to buy the families that lived below it time to evacuate. The third, uncle Keiichi explains unhappily, was a lost cause. At least no one was hurt, and there may arguably be some good that there's a drain for the water building up in the lake, but that's small consolation to those who lost property.
Uncle capitalized?
QuoteThe sun set around the same time that they came back, so it's early enough to go to bed. Just a little bit, the rain is finally tapering off, as well. Hopefully in the morning, things will be a bit better. I remember before I turn in for the night to pass Aunt Rika's concern for her children on to them, which Shutaro accepts solemly, and Matsuri tries to pretend is from me instead of her mother.
Solemnly?
QuoteEven though the eerie quiet tells me the weather's cleared, I still go to the window to check, but the overcast sky is rent in several places like a torn war-banner, letting streaks of blue sky show. More pleasantly, the bright light of the sun spears through one of the gaps, finally working to dispel some of the gloom that's settled from the storm damage.
"But" is suggesting a contrast to his expectations I don't see is really there. He thinks it's cleared, and to a degree, it has. Unless the emphasis is meant to be on the fact that there are still clouds after all.
After hearing that leaving the village is really out of the question, Kyon at last is rested enough to have a lucid dream.
QuoteI set it aside for later, concentrating on Haruhi -- the real one, not some copy with an imitation of her armband. The door next opens to empty sky. I almost take a step out, but a drop of height from what seems to be far, far too high up in the atmosphere for me. I'm sure Haruhi would be comfortable with an envrionment like this in her dreams! Edging as close to the door as I dare, I can peek out and make the edges of some blue metal surface -- so the door is evidently in something, but I can only really just glimpse the edge of a planet's curvature from my position.
Some letter transposition here.
QuoteThat's a bit much for me, and there's still no sign of Haruhi through the doorway, so I quickly shut it and back away again -- actually, as confusing as that was, I quickly turn it to something else. Haruhi's familiar with the Yonaguni Monument, so I think about that and open the door--
Repetition.
QuoteI could easily breathe underwater, or fly.... And if I'd thought about that earlier, I wouldn't have needed to be so frightened of that tower. Still, to make myself prove that it's true, I step through the doorway -- it's right before the fairly well known 'tutle' formation on the top of the massive stone structure.
Tutle?
QuoteI suppose it would have been fun.... Haruhi would probably have enjoyed it, and I could see us discussing the idea of it being natural or manmade while enjoying island cuizine afterward, too. Of course, if I wanted to know, I could just ask Nagato, but that would take all the fun out of it. Somehow, I like the idea of listening to one specific member of the Brigade muse on what she thinks it might really be.
Cuisine. "If I wanted to know" (I think this is about whether it's natural or manmade) seems a bit disconnected from Kyon thinking how he could ask Nagato about it because the thought of Haruhi and cuisine is in-between. I think this could benefit from a simple rearrangement of the thoughts.
QuoteMaybe I can bring Haruhi here later; somehow, this doesn't feel like a place she's been yet. At least, I can't see her here. I swim back to the doorway that's just sitting in the ocean, and float gently to the ground of the clifftop. I notice that I'm convienently completely dry, too.
Misspelling.
Kyon thinks that perhaps this space is persistent, residing in neither his nor Haruhi's mind, and goes back to Himeji Castle.
QuoteWhen I look through the door -- I'm taken aback. The scenery is a twisted jumble! The walls are all disproportionate and bowed out or in, like some surreal impressionist painting! The sense of granduer that Haruhi put into it is still lingering, and as I watch the scenery seems to slowly be twisting itself back into some semblance of proper shape. Even so, I think it's safe to surmise that it didn't precisely 'survive' that well since we'd seen it last.
Is it "grandeur?"
QuoteSo! Haruhi made an area of shared persistant dreams!
Persistent.
QuoteWhile the area is grand, it's also got a certain lack of real details.... I hope she doesn't mind, but by concentrating and looking away, I make the tiles of the floor form a grand mosaiac -- her Brigade logo from the website. The modified one, not her original, just in case that's a problem. The columns and pillars recieve some minor upgrades -- more ornate bases and some hooks higher up, holding small pans of burning oil for light. Some nearby urns are revised with images I think Haruhi would get a kick out of -- her most recent victory over the computer research society president primarily.
Mosaic, receive.
QuoteNow, that alone should send something of a message, but how do I explain the Hinamizawa situation? Even if I've refined the place by adding to what she's made, hopefully making it more solid and persistant....
Again, persistent.
Kyon makes a toy for Haruhi to represent his situation, but it's not immediately clear (to me) just what it might be yet.
Kyon takes a break to solve a puzzle game, showcasing more of the benefits of the dreams and how they give him a needed respite from the waking world.
Rika hints again that she knows or suspects more about Kyon and what he's doing than is apparent. Kyon reads the lucid dreaming book, evading most of his cousins' curiosity.
QuoteThat adds a lot of perspective; I haven't seen more than torrential rain, but it's my first visual cue of the flooding. A tree branch, with one limb thrust into the air, like a desparate hand reaching for help, shoots through the rapidly flowing water. With that measure of just how fast the water is flowing, I move away from the edge of the road, and to the right -- the side of the mountains that this road cuts through.
Desperate.
QuoteI hear the people working on it before I round the bend in the road, calling to one-another and chatting. There's no sounds of machinery, which makes me wonder what happened to the machinery that Uncle Keiichi mentioned was used to reinforce a levee. It must be on the Okinomiya side of the blockage, I guess.
May be able to eliminate this repetition if it strikes you as odd.
Overall, what strikes me from this chapter is that there's a lot of necessary stuff--documenting the disaster in Hinamizawa and such--but because there's so much focus on that, Kyon's dream in the middle of the chapter only feels like a small break from that. I don't get a great sense of how the disaster and Kyon's reactions to it tie into everything yet. In short, I'm not sure I see how this experience is changing Kyon; he just seems to go through it. For the most part, everything is technically good; I just feel that, while Haruhi had the driving spark of trying to unravel the mysteries around her, Kyon just had to roll with things here.
Alas, sorry I can't say something different in that respect. :/
Bah. Sorry about taking so long to get back to this, Muphrid. >_<
Not sure how I dropped the ball. :\
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMKyon awakens from when last we saw him with Haruhi.
QuoteA glance at the clock reveals that it's shortly after one in the morning; properly, I'll need to wait until after sunrise before calling. That plan in mind, I feel like Sasaki Kojiro, waiting for Miyamoto Musashi to show up for the duel. And much like that historical figure, I expect I will be defeated in our encounter.
I'm not sure I understand the significance of "properly"?
I think I meant it as a reference to polite behavior.
Quote from: revisionA glance at the clock reveals that it's shortly after one in the morning; I'll need to wait until after sunrise before calling to be properly respectful of our Brigade chief.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteBlue hair, sharply focused gaze, the glint of metal in one hand--
Hah. This is really clever.
If Rika were a bit older
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMThey are still his aunts, right?
Oops, I see. Guess that one jars too much. :x
Wish I'd never gone for mixed English/Japanese terms, now....
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteProperly armed this time, I step into the darkness, looking down the road for a glimpse of their own flashlights as they hike through the onslaught to the relative safety of Aunt Mion's home.
Their and they refer to Satoko and Shion, right? The next paragraph goes straight to the two of them bringing their children in, which leads me to think that Kyon doesn't just look for a glimpse of their flashlights but actually sees them, which wasn't clear to me at first.
It ... could go that way? There's some implied action, so it's kind of offscreen. I'll just put a scene break between those paragraphs.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteNeither myself or her mother begrudge the girl from curling up near Aunt Rena's side and falling asleep at the kotatsu with us. That does mean that I'm the one who has to go attend any of the children when they need help, but that little bit of activity is actually a welcome distraction on a night like this.
How do you feel about "nor" instead of "or"?
It feels a bit stiff? I'm not used to that word, really, so it's probably correct but since it's not one I typically use. Mm. Will change.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMPerhaps "I can't help but think"?
Huh-- Not sure how that got dropped!
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMKyon convines himself to do something to help out instead of moping, so he takes an assignment from Mion to take tea to the school and bring back the short-wave radio. One thing I notice here is that Kyon's justification of his motivation--that he can't face Haruhi saying he shrank from a challenge or a task--seems a bit quickly given, but it also seems like a good follow-up on the last time he spoke with her.
There's a small parallel with Kyon trying to also drive himself to do something because Haruhi's focusing on her investigation. I'm not sure how aware of it Kyon himself is, though. I could lampshade it better, or leave it as is....
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMIf it's not inconsistent with something already established, doesn't Mion refer to her as simply "Satoko"?
...I'm not sure. Mion will call her 'your aunt Satoko'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMMaybe just "Power outages"?
As always, if I don't comment on a suggestion it's because I've used it. >.>
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PM"But" is suggesting a contrast to his expectations I don't see is really there. He thinks it's cleared, and to a degree, it has. Unless the emphasis is meant to be on the fact that there are still clouds after all.
Will replace it with a semi-colon.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteI could easily breathe underwater, or fly.... And if I'd thought about that earlier, I wouldn't have needed to be so frightened of that tower. Still, to make myself prove that it's true, I step through the doorway -- it's right before the fairly well known 'tutle' formation on the top of the massive stone structure.
Tutle?
Oops -- should be 'turtle'.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteI suppose it would have been fun.... Haruhi would probably have enjoyed it, and I could see us discussing the idea of it being natural or manmade while enjoying island cuizine afterward, too. Of course, if I wanted to know, I could just ask Nagato, but that would take all the fun out of it. Somehow, I like the idea of listening to one specific member of the Brigade muse on what she thinks it might really be.
Cuisine. "If I wanted to know" (I think this is about whether it's natural or manmade) seems a bit disconnected from Kyon thinking how he could ask Nagato about it because the thought of Haruhi and cuisine is in-between. I think this could benefit from a simple rearrangement of the thoughts.
Maybe if I add an 'instead' to the end of the final sentence? The idea of this paragraph is to show Kyon's thoughts going, "my friends", "Haruhi", "Nagato--", "Nah, Haruhi."
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMKyon makes a toy for Haruhi to represent his situation, but it's not immediately clear (to me) just what it might be yet.
There haven't been any clues. If I'd thought about it, a toy would have shown up in chapter two, but we didn't have that part planned at that point, so it's just a mystery. >.>
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMQuoteI hear the people working on it before I round the bend in the road, calling to one-another and chatting. There's no sounds of machinery, which makes me wonder what happened to the machinery that Uncle Keiichi mentioned was used to reinforce a levee. It must be on the Okinomiya side of the blockage, I guess.
May be able to eliminate this repetition if it strikes you as odd.
Oh-- One can be equipment. Got it.
Quote from: Muphrid on March 23, 2012, 04:43:30 PMOverall, what strikes me from this chapter is that there's a lot of necessary stuff--documenting the disaster in Hinamizawa and such--but because there's so much focus on that, Kyon's dream in the middle of the chapter only feels like a small break from that. I don't get a great sense of how the disaster and Kyon's reactions to it tie into everything yet. In short, I'm not sure I see how this experience is changing Kyon; he just seems to go through it. For the most part, everything is technically good; I just feel that, while Haruhi had the driving spark of trying to unravel the mysteries around her, Kyon just had to roll with things here.
Alas, sorry I can't say something different in that respect. :/
Well -- Haruhi's actionary, Kyon's reactionary. >_>
Hopefully Kyon's next scenes will be a bit less dull. :x
Thanks for the comments, Muphrid, as always. :)
And a wild chapter 08 appears!
Exciting chapter!
QuoteThe next stop I make is what he showed me of Hinamizawa, although the landscape is blurred and indistinct, almost like I'm looking at it through fog - but the air is clear. I can only figure it's due to the fact that I don't know the place that well myself, but it does let me know that Kyon isn't here either -- it'd probably be a lot more normal-looking if he was.
Most of the dashes in and around this paragraph are single - instead of the double -- used at the end of this paragraph.
QuoteIt's enough to get me to stop and consider for a minute. Obviously Kyon isn't in any immediate danger if he was able to get into the dream after the last time we met up, which eases the pressure to find him immediately. It strikes me that if I keep flipping around looking for him, he could end up doing the same looking for me, and it'll take longer for us to find each other if we do - sort of like running around in circles after each other.
Repetition.
Quote"Well, I didn't ask it anything, so it at least seems to have the 'acting like you' thing down perfectly," I retort with a smirk - but then, like a thunderbolt, the reason why I'm here looking for him comes crashing back. I don't want him to see how worried I was, though, so I keep my face steady as I shout at him. "And you! You'd better have a really good explanation for missing the Brigade meeting today!"
I think it's cute that Haruhi puts on this air while being pretty sure she knows exactly why Kyon missed school.
QuoteHe heaves another sigh at that, his shoulders slumping. "Yeah, I suppose I've got a penalty for that too," he replies glumly. "My whole family got trapped up here in Hinamizawa - there was a big mudslide that took out the phone and power lines, and blocked the main road leading out of the village. My parents figured it was too risky for us to get out along the back roads, so we're staying put until they can get the main road cleared. We might be up here for another week or more."
Mind that that comma isn't strictly correct.
QuoteHe nods at that, looking slightly depressed. "Yeah, I haven't heard of anyone being hurt so far. My aunt Mion's house -- where we've been staying -- is up in the mountains, so there's no real danger of flooding here at least. My uncles have been working on reinforcing some of the levees, and seeing if they can clear the mudslide a little before the Department of Public Works arrives. Most of my aunts have come up here with the rest of my cousins, but one of them's staying in town at the school -- that's where the main shelter for the village residents is."
Note that at this point double dashes come back in.
Quote"Helping my aunts look after the cousins more, really," he answers, shaking his head. "No school, of course, since the actual school building is being used as a shelter, but we spent today working on their homework, mostly. I got a break to go visit my uncles at lunchtime, but even that was an errand, really - taking food down to the mudslide area. The JSDF actually airlifted some supplies in this afternoon, so we're not in any danger of running out of food or medical supplies any time soon, but it's still not much fun."
Repetition.
QuoteThe prospect doesn't seem to excite him much, not that I can actually blame him for that. "Yeah, I guess," he mumbles. "Just means my sister gets a free pass, since everyone else will have things they actually need to work on."
And again.
Quote"That's... probably true," Kyon says, sounding rather uncomfortable. "Anyway, I probably shouldn't say any more, just... as I said, I'd stick to looking into Koizumi, you've got better odds of finding things that look off about his situation than the others. The one other thing I'll say directly is that none of the others' secrets are anything bad, just things they don't want you to know about."
Here too.
Overall with this scene, it's surprising how much Kyon is able to confirm, yet he still can't provide "real" information. While Haruhi seems emboldened for it (and, notably, seems to treat their interactions as so real she forgets it's even a dream), I think were I her, my mind would be racing trying to figure out just what could be so complicated and hush-hush. Then again, she's already reached that point, hasn't she, and the only thing to do is keep pushing, which she's very, very good at.
QuoteInstead I resolved myself to keep doing my best. Haruhi had acknowledged that I was doing that, and she couldn't blame me for the rest, so what else was there?
Is that necessary?
QuoteWhile I should have a view of Nishinomiya, she's rolled back time. The surrounding area lets us see a small abandoned village, and an army of foes stretching all the way to the horizon. "Great Strategist Kyon!" Empress Haruhi declares imperiously. "The march of the Dread-cousins draws near! The fortress must be held until the light of the moon shines in the sky once more!"
"...Dreadcousins?" I can't help but ask, taken slightly aback.
Probably want consistent spelling here. And let me just say, I laughed out loud at "dread-cousins."
QuoteRealizing this, I remark, "Have the samurai stand ready to cover the archer's retreat once the first defenses are breached. When a breach seems imminent, pull the archers back immediately; the samurai can cover them until the next choke-point. We're going to conserve resources, which means the archers are going to be key. Let the enemy make progress until they reach the maze; we'll whittle them down slowly until that point. Then we'll spring every dirty trick this castle has on them!"
Archers'?
QuoteThen the messenger at my side tugs at my sleeve and says, "General Kyon-nii, you should either put on a horo, or move to the third floor's ishiuchidana!"
This combined with the earlier bits of untranslated stuff might be a bit much?
QuoteCoughing slightly, Haruhi adds, "And math-- Always with the math! Page forty seven and forty nine." She shakes her head, getting back into character, I guess, and says, "But now, brave hero, for your victory, you have earned a further reward."
Forty-seven and forty-nine.
QuoteOh, a kiss on the cheek? Well, that's fine, I think. As she draws closer, the entire world shakes incredibly violently, and just before she connects I realize I'm blinking up int Matsuri's face as she comes in for--
Into.
I think Haruhi's kiss on Kyon's cheek was the right speed for things to progress--affectionate, but not too fast. This entire battle sequence is imaginative and hilarious.
QuoteShe nods thoughtfully at that, while Mikuru finally takes a seat next to me and opens up her bento. "I see!" Tsuruya replies. "Shame to hears something like that happened to Kyon-kun, I'll definitely chip in!"
Maybe a semicolon?
QuoteThat startles the red-haired girl, almost making her drop her chopsticks. "Ah-- what for?"
Red or chestnut? You guys can make either choice in that regard.
Just addressing the parts related to my segments here. As usual, no comment = suggestion was used.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Most of the dashes in and around this paragraph are single - instead of the double -- used at the end of this paragraph.
Should be uniform with the double dash now.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
QuoteIt's enough to get me to stop and consider for a minute. Obviously Kyon isn't in any immediate danger if he was able to get into the dream after the last time we met up, which eases the pressure to find him immediately. It strikes me that if I keep flipping around looking for him, he could end up doing the same looking for me, and it'll take longer for us to find each other if we do - sort of like running around in circles after each other.
Repetition.
Replaced the second with 'right away'.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Quote"Helping my aunts look after the cousins more, really," he answers, shaking his head. "No school, of course, since the actual school building is being used as a shelter, but we spent today working on their homework, mostly. I got a break to go visit my uncles at lunchtime, but even that was an errand, really - taking food down to the mudslide area. The JSDF actually airlifted some supplies in this afternoon, so we're not in any danger of running out of food or medical supplies any time soon, but it's still not much fun."
Repetition.
Second instance was changed to "but even that was more of an errand --"
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
QuoteThe prospect doesn't seem to excite him much, not that I can actually blame him for that. "Yeah, I guess," he mumbles. "Just means my sister gets a free pass, since everyone else will have things they actually need to work on."
And again.
Second instance changed to 'really do'.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Quote"That's... probably true," Kyon says, sounding rather uncomfortable. "Anyway, I probably shouldn't say any more, just... as I said, I'd stick to looking into Koizumi, you've got better odds of finding things that look off about his situation than the others. The one other thing I'll say directly is that none of the others' secrets are anything bad, just things they don't want you to know about."
Here too.
Letting this one go as conversational, since it's all in dialogue. Less stringent about it there myself.
(Seriously, if you want to drive yourself nuts sometime? Try paying attention to your own everyday speech and notice how often you repeat words in proximity.)
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
Overall with this scene, it's surprising how much Kyon is able to confirm, yet he still can't provide "real" information. While Haruhi seems emboldened for it (and, notably, seems to treat their interactions as so real she forgets it's even a dream), I think were I her, my mind would be racing trying to figure out just what could be so complicated and hush-hush. Then again, she's already reached that point, hasn't she, and the only thing to do is keep pushing, which she's very, very good at.
Yeah. She's already determined that this is something really big given what Yuki said, she's just digging for clues. She's got a breakthrough coming soon, though.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
QuoteThat startles the red-haired girl, almost making her drop her chopsticks. "Ah-- what for?"
Red or chestnut? You guys can make either choice in that regard.
Will speak with Brian on this one, but I'm inclined to leave it as red myself.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PMQuoteInstead I resolved myself to keep doing my best. Haruhi had acknowledged that I was doing that, and she couldn't blame me for the rest, so what else was there?
Is that necessary?
I think it's not, actually.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PMProbably want consistent spelling here. And let me just say, I laughed out loud at "dread-cousins."
Glad that worked. :D
Okay, they should all be hyphenated, and only capitalized when used as the 'Dread-cousin Empire'. Also, Haruhi is only a princess here, to better fit with the samurai cheering, "Haruhi for Empress!"
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PMArchers'?
Yeah. :X
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PMThis combined with the earlier bits of untranslated stuff might be a bit much?
Yeah, the reference to the horo is a bit forced, so I dropped it.
Quote from: Muphrid on April 26, 2012, 07:07:33 PMI think Haruhi's kiss on Kyon's cheek was the right speed for things to progress--affectionate, but not too fast. This entire battle sequence is imaginative and hilarious.
Excellent; thanks for that feedback. I put a little work into the cousin-battle, especially Kyon's desire to not actually harm his cousins (even cartoonishly). It's also based off a game I GMed a long time ago (Hal was one of the players, though he wasn't in the seige ;)), so it was fun to reference that....
And Haruhi wanting to give him a kiss on the cheek felt natural, too -- so I'm glad that worked. :D
Thanks very much for taking the time to comment, as always!
A much delayed look at this chapter. All in all, from my vantage point is looks like the story is progressing smoothly -- I'm hoping the delay Hal mentioned on IRC isn't story-related, since I can't see any major problems with what's out so far...
The only significant issue is that Matsuri exploding when told off by Aunt Rika kind of came out of the blue for me. (Note that the actual event of her running off, to me, doesn't depend *that* heavily on her
immediate reaction to being scolded. I can easily see Matsuri becoming seething mad and distraught after being grounded for most of the day.) Not sure if it's because people unfamiliar with Higurashi aren't predisposed to pay attention to the pile of cousins and so I missed some development, or because it objectively comes out of the blue. I'll harp on it again when I get to it.
Anyhow, C&C by section, may be redundant with what other people have written:
QuoteThe first check I make - the clubroom - comes up empty, and completely unchanged as far as I can see. I spend a few minutes waiting, but I'm too antsy to simply sit back and do nothing while Kyon gets here, so after a brief bout of pacing the length of the clubroom I turn the page again.
"check" is a bit awkward as it's in a completely different sense from the previous paragraph ("reality check"). Maybe "the first place I look".
"clubroom" ... "the length of the clubroom" -- repetition. Maybe "clubroom" ... "the length of the room".
QuoteI can't help but burst out in a fit of the giggles at that - it's like the essence of Kyon, right there! I'm just about to pull the string again when I'm interrupted by a sigh from behind me; I whirl around to find the real Kyon standing there, a hand covering his face. "Kyon!" I bark out in surprise.
"hand covering his face"? I assume you mean the classic Kyon facepalm?
Maybe put a paragraph break before the exclamation.
QuoteI can't help but frown a bit at that. "Well, if you're just working on schoolwork anyway, I guess I can give you our assignments when we meet here. Not the most exciting thing in the world, but at least if you're able to keep up with them on your own you won't have a huge pile of make-up work to do when you finally do get back."
Repetition --> suggested fixes:
"if you're just working on schoolwork" --> "if you're doing schoolwork"
"make-up work to do when you finally do get back" --> "make-up work when you finally do get back" or (?) "make-up work to do when you finally get back" or "make-up work to do when you finally manage to get back"
QuoteHe just chuckles at that. "All right, I'll go with the 'thanks', then." He sighs, shaking his head. "Anyway, rather than dwelling on dull things are up here at the moment, what have you been up to?"
Seems like something is missing. Maybe "on how dull things are up here at the moment", or "on the dull things going on up here" / "on all the dull things going on here".
Quote"Not that big a deal, I just wasn't expecting it is all," I reply offhandedly. "You know, for a few minutes there I actually forgot that we were dreaming - sitting here and talking to you like this, it could be just like something we'd do in the real world. That," I add, pointing to the doorway, "is definitely not something that could show up for real."
Probably the last sentence needs something along the lines "that is definitely not something that could show up for real, though".
QuoteBefore I do the same, I look back at the door - still standing open to the Brigade room even though Kyon's gone. It might not be possible for him to just open a door and come back to Nishinomiya, but it would be really nice if he could. Spending time with him in dreams is fun, but I want him back in the real world too!
*cough*
hopefully as in "want to see him back in the real world"?
Now for Brian's part:
QuoteAfter meeting with Haruhi -- finally -- I was able to let myself drift into proper sleep. Morning came around, leaving me to be woken by my younger sister and her giggling.
Aunt Mion is in the doorway, looking amused as my sister dashes away, blanket trailing behind her. At least the gas heating keeps the house warm even without power.
Sudden switch from past tense "morning came around" to present tense "Aunt Mion is in the doorway" is kind of jarring.
QuoteThen again, I've managed to achieve lucid dreaming (or this new thing that Haruhi made up that's really like lucid dreaming), so I suppose there's not as much point? In any case, I make a note of the math assignments that Haruhi mentioned, so I can work on those during the 'school' session with my cousins.
Arbitrary rejiggering suggestion: "or a least this new thing Haruhi made up that's really similar to lucid dreaming".
QuoteInstead I resolved myself to keep doing my best. Haruhi had acknowledged that I was doing that, and she couldn't blame me for the rest, so what else was there?
And... back to past tense again. Probably going to be irritating to fix -_-;;
A bunch of repetition. Maybe something along the lines "Instead I resolved to just keep doing my best. Haruhi had acknowledged that I've been doing what I could, and she couldn't blame me for the rest, so what else was there?"
QuoteAnd that meant as soon as I was done bathing, helping keep the cousins in line, and more actively trying to help lead them to take their lessons.
This looks like a nasty sentence fragment (although I get the intended structure). Many ways to fix this, e.g.
"And that meant that as soon as I was done bathing, I'd have to help keep the cousins in line, and more actively try to help lead them to take their lessons."
Also, "trying to help lead them" is a wobbly, slightly weaselly phrase which detracts from the overall sense of resolve in the sentence. (Sounds like someone hedging their bets to pass the buck later: "don't look at me! I'm not in charge of this! I was just trying to help lead the initiative!") Anyhow, there's probably a way to collapse this.
Maybe just "more actively try to lead them to take their lessons", without the extra layer of indirection from "help"?
Sure, he's not the only authority figure doing this, but his authority in the matter of encouraging to is generally going to be complementary to that of the adults and... anyhow, he makes a unilateral leadership decision later on in this very chapter (to take the kid along in the rain to help search), that the adults would definitely disagree with, so why not have him be less wishy-washy at this point in a matter where you're trying to show his resolve, and he doesn't even have any reason to hesitate?
QuoteAh, Haruhi, what have you done to me? Made me realize I have to take initiative and finish my homework on its own?
This kind of exclamation seems (to me) would be more natural if you wrote something like "... what have you done to me? Making me realize I have to take initiative and finish my homework on my own?"
QuoteThe rain cuts off and resumes in fitful spates until I got out of the furo.
More tense confusion. "cuts off" ... "got" in the same sentence.
Quote"Today's assignment for me," I tell her, which gets the attention of the other cousins, and my mother to beam me a surprised, pleased smile.
The verb "gets" commanding two different kinds of subordinate clauses... anyhow, some confusing grammar mojo I can't really put my finger on makes this sentence flow awkwardly. I suggest fixing it either by biting the bullet and adding repetition
"which gets the attention of the other cousins, and gets my mother to beam me a surprised, pleased smile."
making it at least easier to comprehend, or fixing it any other way you like.
QuoteIt could be much worse then, couldn't it? Hopefully it doesn't rain so much it makes working on the mudslide dangerous, or else that little bit of exercise won't happen today....
Not sure what Kyon is worrying about exactly -- being cooped up indoors, or the work on the mudslide being for nothing, all plausible candidates. Anyhow, this isn't really in need of fixing, consider it a problem with my poor reading comprehension if you like :-)
Back to Hal's part:
QuoteI do my best to keep my cool, although I'd like nothing more than to reach over and slap that smug smirk off his face. "So, your words about student independence were completely empty, then? I've already gotten approval from the faculty to do this -- they even thought it was an excellent idea to raise awareness!"
"slap that smug smirk"... very nice XD
I still have a few tricks up my sleeve, though. As much as I'd like to use this to force recognition of the SOS Brigade by the student council, we don't have time to play tug-of-war over this - if the rest of my plans are going to succeed, we need to get this moving fast!
Repetition of this: "use this to force" ... "tug of war over this" ... "get this moving". Your choice whether / how to change the paragraph.
Suggest "if the rest of my plans are to succeed" as a (possible) alternate phrasing.
Quote"And, of course, the president of the Literature Club is fully behind me on this one," I add - although Yuki's more behind and off to the side of me at the moment; she adds her own nod to punctuate the point. If he was willing to attack the SOS Brigade through the old Literature Club... well, two can play at that game!
Or maaaaybe, "well, that strategy can work in the other direction too!" or something more concise/apt to that effect. She's not so much using the same tactics the president is, rather observing that by framing the situation that way he unwittingly handed her an advantage. Purely optional observation.
QuoteAt that, my smirk breaks into a full grin. "As the leader of the SOS Brigade, I fully accept!" I bark triumphantly, spinning on my heel and striding out of the clubroom, with Yuki trailing behind in my wake. It may not be official recognition of the Brigade, but by singling me out he's admitting that I'm more than just a member of the Literature Club - a small victory, but a victory all the same!
Student Council President: "... by singling you out I have in fact recognized you... as a singularly persistent source of annoyance."
Quote"Yeah, that part I imagine we won't be able to plan for very well - I'm guessing we either rent bicycles in Okinomiya or we hike. Ten kilometers should be manageable, though, as long as we don't go too crazy." I know I sure won't have any problems hiking that far, and I suspect Koizumi won't either - but we'll probably need to pace ourselves a bit to make sure Mikuru and Yuki can keep up. She doesn't seem to be bothered at all at the suggestion, though, which I'll take as a good sign for her.
I think I was burned by the "does Haruhi have any evidence Yuki is actually athletic, or not" question once before. My sense was, she does, but I might be horribly wrong.
Back to Brian's part:
QuoteShe nods smoothly, and from the enemy camp, a lone figure steps out. She's armored in gear that looks suspiciously like what a kindergartner or elementary schooler would wear. That is to say, the familiar tsuugaku-bou, or brightly colored yellow hats that children wear for road safety. It also looks slightly like armor, but at a guess, Haruhi was aiming for something silly instead of intimidating.
"kindergartner"? "kindergardener"?
Quote"Wait, wait-- I have to fight them?" I ask aghast, turning to where Haruhi ... was. In her place is a girl that looks an awful lot like my sister, just with the side-tail on the opposite side.
"Nope!" she chirps in Yurie's voice, dressed in a simple messenger's outfit. "General Kyon-nii just needs to lead the troops!"
*nods*
Ah yes, dream characters that are a composite of two people. I've had those.
Maybe "dressed in a simple messenger's outfit" should be moved to the description in the first paragraph. It's a bit odd to stick it there.
QuoteSure-- Like that, this could be fun!
"that, this" is odd. Maybe "Like that, it could actually be fun!"
Quote"Okay," I allow, placing a hand on the messenger's head. I'll leave the image of 'Matsuri' alone, but if Yurie's my ally.... I close my eyes, thinking of how I'd rather the weapons on both side to work, and when I open them, the messenger girl looks more like Yurie.
Observable ironies with regard to both Matsuri being Kyon's opponent, and the fact that Kyon winds up taking Yurie along to help for reals at the end of the chapter. Neat.
QuoteWell, not really-- With a few exceptions, I don't think motivational speeches are really my forte. Still, for this game, I'd better, hadn't I? And I'm sure Haruhi's hiding there, as a nearby archer or samurai -- no way would she miss out on watching me win ... or lose.
Right... win and he gets mobbed by Haruhi shadow clones, lose and he gets mobbed by small children's. Either way, Haruhi will have something to watch.
QuoteI lose a few minutes of command time hurrying to the new post, but it appears my strategy was good-- Multitudes of generic 'dread-cousins' are captured in warm caramel or smacked with pillow dropped from the angled chutes on the sides of the tower. Based on the numbers, our victory seems certain.
"Smacked with pillows"? Unless you're coining some uncountable noun for cushions used in ballistic combat, like "cannon"?
Quote"And you have done well," she says smoothly, neither of us trying to adopt the classic forms of speech. She rises smoothly and glides forward, producing a rolled scroll from her robes. "As promised, your reward, brave soul! From history, we're starting the coverage of events leading to the Battle of Sekigahara-- Chapter seventeen. Math, as usual, same problem numbers for the next two pages. English is starting chapter twelve, first two pages."
Right-- I try and commit that to memory, nodding.
"And," she says, smirking, "your sister's assignments for Monday and Tuesday. For science, chapter seven review is being reviewed, and she owes a full-page report on..." she trails off and winces, looking away in slight annoyance, "...her Golden Week vacation."
It occurs to me -- as an idle thought -- that a more serious-sounding variation on this (minus Haruhi clones and dread cousins) might have made for a neat "what the hell is going on"? in medias res prologue. Samurai!Kyon leading the troops on behalf of empress!Haruhi who congratulates him... then suddenly starts giving him math homework.
QuoteHer lips quirk in a smile, and she adds, "This is traditional for these games, right? You save the 'princess' and get a kiss?"
I stare, my mouth dropping open slightly-- Wait, wait! I'm not sure I'm prepared-- I mean, I guess I have this coming to me? When we first met in that dream that ... well, I reminded her of, I kissed her without even asking permission, so--
"E...er, okay," I cough out, mindful of her sharp gaze on mine. Her eyes narrow slightly, though she looks satisfied with herself for some reason. One hand rises to my chin, and to my surprise she turns my face slightly away, leaning in for--
Oh, a kiss on the cheek? Well, that's fine, I think. As she draws closer, the entire world shakes incredibly violently, and just before she connects I realize I'm blinking up int Matsuri's face as she comes in for--
That, I think, was very reasonably handled.
QuoteI stare dumbly as Matsuri raises her head and looks hurt, disoriented from the abrupt transition.
Maybe "hurt and disoriented"?
Quote"Mind your langu--" Aunt Rika starts, poking her head into the room. Wait, was that aloud?
Maybe "wait, I said that out loud" or similar?
Quote"Shut up!" Matsuri cries, tears streaming down her face as she hops to her feet. "I hate you!"
... wow. Maybe people I know just have high standards such that it's inconceivable for them to allow children to yell "shut up" at anyone under any circumstances, but... all I'm thinking on reading this is, girl has issues. I kind of missed it developing to *that* emotionally overwrought level. Then again, that might be because Kyon, the narrator, completely missed it developing to that level as well.
Maybe some thought might need to be put into a couple of shades of plausibility lacquer to this. I may have missed the development due to either being thick (which would be a problem with me), or not considering the cousins except as scenery (which might be a problem for other people who were skimming the cousin parts), or due to actual insufficient development. It came out of the blue for me, since the whole "Matsuri is into Kyon" thing struck me just as a minor bit of quirky comedy before.
Quote"Matsu--" Aunt Rika cuts off with an exasperated sigh as her daughter tears past her and down the hall. Not long after, a door slams with enough force to jar me, and prompt irritated grumbling from the other rooms next to mine. Aunt Rika closes her eyes and forces a deep breath. "Oh, that little..."
Suggest "and to prompt irritated grumbling" to avoid wobbly grammar. (Without it, my brain wants to classify 'prompt' as an adverb for some reason.)
Back to Hal's part:
QuoteCompletely silly, but then I guess if Kyon was thinking of it as his actual cousins invading, I can see not wanting to hurt them -- even if all of it's entirely imaginary anyway.
Maybe "I can see why he wouldn't want to hurt them."
QuoteI look up in surprise as the very person I had in mind bounces up, Mikuru trailing along a bit behind her. "Tsuruya-san! I was just thinking about you!"
"trailing along a bit behind" feels odd in that context, but I'm not really sure what the best way to fix it is... meh.
QuoteThe green-haired girl breaks into a wide grin at that, plopping down on the edge of the planter where I've made my own seat. "Ohohoho~! What's on your mind, nyoro?"
Something I wanted to ask that you and Brian both probably know better than I do -- I assume the coloured hair is really an anime thing, though it's considered reasonable by fanon to introduce the notion back into the book continuity?
QuoteMikuru hangs back a bit, looking a little uncertain, so I motion her over and pat the edge of the planter opposite to where Tsuruya's sitting. "Come take a seat, Mikuru-chan!" I order. "Anyway, Tsuruya-san, I don't know if Mikuru-chan's told you anything about it yet or not, but Kyon's gotten himself stuck in an actual natural disaster! He was visiting relatives up north for Golden Week, and while he was there the village where his family lives was cut off by mudslides!"
"about it yet or not" is a bit odd. I'd keep one -- either "about it yet" or "about it or not".
Quote"Yeah!" I confirm. "Anyway, from what I've been able to find out they think the village might be cut off for another week or more, and they're having to airlift supplies in while they work on getting the roads cleared and taking care of all the flooding going on up there. There's absolutely no way I'm going to sit back and do nothing while one of my Brigade members is stuck in a situation like that, though, so we're organizing a fundraiser to help out the relief efforts!"
I'd add a comma: "from what I've been able to find out, they think the village might be cut off for another week or more"...
QuoteIt's a little unusual for me to thank her for something, but Kyon did suggest that I might be able to get more information if I could be her friend more -- and honestly, I've got a good excuse. "For the flyers, of course! That design from yesterday looks great - we'll just need to fill out a little more information about what people can expect to see there and then we can get a ton of them printed up and posted all over the place!"
Peanut gallery regarding "be her friend more": I hope Haruhi doesn't ever learn about the Nanoha style of befriending, she'd like it way too much.
QuoteI throw the wrapper for my sanshoku bread away, then head back into the building, thinking about what I've still got to do today. I need to touch base with the light music club and get their help, and check with Sakanaka about the chorus... then there's seeing if Yuki's got any updates about the travel arrangements or supplies we should take in, and getting the flyers finished up and printed so we can start posting them. And then after I get home, I need to check with my neighbor - it was lucky that the neighbor I tutor every now and then actually goes to the same school as Kyon's little sister, so getting her assignments was actually really easy.
Suggest "take along" instead of "take in".
Back to Brian's part:
QuoteAfter breakfast we go straight into 'school' again -- Aunt Rika leads the lessons. Just when my sister seems content to goof off, I spread some of the good cheer that Haruhi lent me. I don't believe it would be possible for my mother to be any happier, considering, but she completely buys my line about thinking I can guess which assignments would be given out.
Incidentally, I always get the unfortunate impression that Kyon's parents must be gullible from the fact that they let Haruhi drag him away on questionable exclusions.
Quote from: I mean, it would go something like this
"Mom, dad, I'm going to go away for a week with my club to a remote island in the Pacific."
"What??"
"I mean, there's a mansion on it, so it's not like a completely deserted island."
"Wait, whose mansion? What?"
"Umm.... some guy with some biotechnology startup or something."
"How the hell do you know him?"
"Umm... I don't. Koizumi knows him. I think he's a rich uncle of Koizumi's or something."
"Look, can you the explain why you're so obsessed with going to some deserted island owned by some guy's rich uncle? Can't you just stay home?"
"Umm..."
"Okay, you can go!"
Either that or Kyon has to actively mislead his parents / show advanced skill in framing the issue to them that he doesn't seem to demonstrate, or most likely this is just something that Tanigawa never needed to think through.
QuoteWhen we break for lunch, I stretch, wondering if I'll be running food down to the school, since the mudslide is being left alone. That job is taken by Aunt Mion and Aunt Shion, insisting that they want to help show support for the community.
Suggest "But that job is taken by..."
QuoteThe only other thing I have to do is read the lucid dreaming book, and I think I've reached the end of what I could learn from that.
Wait... I think there was a paragraph expressing this exact same thought earlier in the chapter. Maybe rephrase this instance as something like:
"The only other thing I could do is read the lucid dreaming book again, but that just feels like too much of a blatant excuse to kill time."
QuoteAs if to underscore that thought, Yurie darts out of the hall at top speed, skidding to a halt and nearly stumbling into the couch, eyes wide. "Kyon-nii!" she cries. "Matsu-chan is missing!"
Given the dire nature of the news, not sure if "underscore" is the right word. Maybe "as if to prove me wrong" or something else (not sure) with the point being that having nothing to do is not really the worst problem Kyon could be having... as Yurie's news immediately proves.
QuoteWell ... this isn't what I would have wanted by a long shot, but enough is enough.
The thought feels a bit muddled as it is now. I assume this isn't what Kyon wanted when he was looking for something to do, but it is something he *has* to do... not sure how to express that suitably.
QuoteI don't see leading two little girls back up this trail.
"I don't see myself leading", maybe?
QuoteIn fact, considering how much we're stumbling and sliding as it is, I doubt I could get up just by myself!
Maybe something like "I doubt I could even make it back up alone!"
... though as a rule, I notice your action scenes often feel more tightly written than the general scenes.
QuoteWe spend the next few minutes trudging through the rain at a pace slightly slower than a jog -- and faster and we might slip in a muddy patch.
"any faster"?
QuoteThe ritual storage shed by the shrine? Thinking that, I increase our pace slightly; the shed isn't that far from the river, and with the dam overflowing already, and all this extra rain....
I don't know that I've ever made as fast a trip between Aunt Mion's house and the shrine grounds.
The last sentence doesn't really fit factually with "I increase our pace
slightly". I guess edit the first part to remove the 'slightly'?
QuoteWhat occupies my attention is the fact that the river has risen, waters lapping at the muddy soil between us and the shed already. "Matsuri!" I yell, over the storm.
"waters already lapping"?
QuoteBarely audible, I can hear Matsuri's pitiable cry for help. So -- Yurie was right. I think that as I reach the door, realizing I've waded through a few meters of ankle-deep and rising water. When I reach the shed's door, the first thing that I notice is that the shed itself seems to be shifted slightly. I'm not sure ... is it sinking into the mud? The foundation slipping?
Redundant "that". Suggest "the first thing I notice".
QuoteAn unfamiliar statue in the back of the shed shifted, and she's pinned under it, floundering--
Suggest "has shifted".
QuoteIt takes only a glimpse of her terrified face to goad me into action. Some part of my mind distantly notes that the shed isn't as well constructed as I thought; the floor is earth, not stone. And that means that right now, it's more mud. Likely, that same distant part of my mind observes, it really is just sinking into the mud, and that's what all of the problems we're facing are for.
"are for"? Maybe "and that's the cause of all of the problems we're facing" or similar?
Anyhow, that was a monster of a chapter. Nice work -- sorry I didn't get around to it for so long... I'll see what other C&C I can muster up in the next little while...
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteAfter meeting with Haruhi -- finally -- I was able to let myself drift into proper sleep. Morning came around, leaving me to be woken by my younger sister and her giggling.
Aunt Mion is in the doorway, looking amused as my sister dashes away, blanket trailing behind her. At least the gas heating keeps the house warm even without power.
Sudden switch from past tense "morning came around" to present tense "Aunt Mion is in the doorway" is kind of jarring.
Bah. No one likes my tense switching.
I'll get rid of all of the past-tense stuff, though it'll require minor expansion of every scene to step away from the 'summary' lead-in.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteThen again, I've managed to achieve lucid dreaming (or this new thing that Haruhi made up that's really like lucid dreaming), so I suppose there's not as much point? In any case, I make a note of the math assignments that Haruhi mentioned, so I can work on those during the 'school' session with my cousins.
Arbitrary rejiggering suggestion: "or a least this new thing Haruhi made up that's really similar to lucid dreaming".
I'm not going to just ignore it out of hand, but ... why?
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteInstead I resolved myself to keep doing my best. Haruhi had acknowledged that I was doing that, and she couldn't blame me for the rest, so what else was there?
And... back to past tense again. Probably going to be irritating to fix -_-;;
Just changed 'resolved' to 'resolve'.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteAnd that meant as soon as I was done bathing, helping keep the cousins in line, and more actively trying to help lead them to take their lessons.
This looks like a nasty sentence fragment (although I get the intended structure). Many ways to fix this, e.g.
"And that meant that as soon as I was done bathing, I'd have to help keep the cousins in line, and more actively try to help lead them to take their lessons."
Also, "trying to help lead them" is a wobbly, slightly weaselly phrase which detracts from the overall sense of resolve in the sentence. (Sounds like someone hedging their bets to pass the buck later: "don't look at me! I'm not in charge of this! I was just trying to help lead the initiative!") Anyhow, there's probably a way to collapse this.
Maybe just "more actively try to lead them to take their lessons", without the extra layer of indirection from "help"?
That kind of connotates that the aunts are abandoning Kyon to handle that by himself. He's a role-model, but the aunts are actually leading the lessons. I'll expand to make it clearer:
Quote from: revisionAnd that meant as soon as I was done bathing, joining the effort to keep the cousins in line. This, naturally, would be by helping my aunts lead the unruly children to take their lessons more seriously.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMSure, he's not the only authority figure doing this, but his authority in the matter of encouraging to is generally going to be complementary to that of the adults and... anyhow, he makes a unilateral leadership decision later on in this very chapter (to take the kid along in the rain to help search), that the adults would definitely disagree with, so why not have him be less wishy-washy at this point in a matter where you're trying to show his resolve, and he doesn't even have any reason to hesitate?
I ... don't have a constructive response for this.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMThis kind of exclamation seems (to me) would be more natural if you wrote something like "... what have you done to me? Making me realize I have to take initiative and finish my homework on my own?"
Suggestion: When changing a very small number of minor details, maybe do something to provide emphasis on your changes, so they're more visible. I had to re-read it several times to realize you had suggested changing two words.
(I also disagree with the first one; the realization is present tense, but the actual event is past.)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuote"Today's assignment for me," I tell her, which gets the attention of the other cousins, and my mother to beam me a surprised, pleased smile.
The verb "gets" commanding two different kinds of subordinate clauses... anyhow, some confusing grammar mojo I can't really put my finger on makes this sentence flow awkwardly. I suggest fixing it either by biting the bullet and adding repetition
"which gets the attention of the other cousins, and gets my mother to beam me a surprised, pleased smile."
making it at least easier to comprehend, or fixing it any other way you like.
Quote from: revision"Today's assignment for me," I tell her, which gets the attention of the other cousins. Even my mother looks in from the kitchen to beam me a surprised, pleased smile!
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMBack to Brian's part:
QuoteShe nods smoothly, and from the enemy camp, a lone figure steps out. She's armored in gear that looks suspiciously like what a kindergartner or elementary schooler would wear. That is to say, the familiar tsuugaku-bou, or brightly colored yellow hats that children wear for road safety. It also looks slightly like armor, but at a guess, Haruhi was aiming for something silly instead of intimidating.
"kindergartner"? "kindergardener"?
Everything I can find indicates the former.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMAh yes, dream characters that are a composite of two people. I've had those.
More like, Haruhi created the entity, but hadn't ever met Yurie, so just uses Kyon's sister as a template. She _had_ heard Yurie's voice, though, so....
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMMaybe "dressed in a simple messenger's outfit" should be moved to the description in the first paragraph. It's a bit odd to stick it there.
Sure.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuote"Okay," I allow, placing a hand on the messenger's head. I'll leave the image of 'Matsuri' alone, but if Yurie's my ally.... I close my eyes, thinking of how I'd rather the weapons on both side to work, and when I open them, the messenger girl looks more like Yurie.
Observable ironies with regard to both Matsuri being Kyon's opponent, and the fact that Kyon winds up taking Yurie along to help for reals at the end of the chapter. Neat.
[*FORESHADOWING*]
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteI lose a few minutes of command time hurrying to the new post, but it appears my strategy was good-- Multitudes of generic 'dread-cousins' are captured in warm caramel or smacked with pillow dropped from the angled chutes on the sides of the tower. Based on the numbers, our victory seems certain.
"Smacked with pillows"? Unless you're coining some uncountable noun for cushions used in ballistic combat, like "cannon"?
I can't understand what you're trying to convey here. You feel 'smacked' is too gentle? Too rough?
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMIt occurs to me -- as an idle thought -- that a more serious-sounding variation on this (minus Haruhi clones and dread cousins) might have made for a neat "what the hell is going on"? in medias res prologue. Samurai!Kyon leading the troops on behalf of empress!Haruhi who congratulates him... then suddenly starts giving him math homework.
That sounds like the game tropers play with 'Better Than it Sounds' where they typically try and come up with nonsense deliveries that make whatever sound bizzare. Sometimes it's legit; Planetes really IS 'Janitors ... IN SPACE!' and sometimes they stretch. Here, it'd be a bit of a stretch.
As an in medias res opening, it'd work, but on chapter eight, well ... that train has sailed.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteOh, a kiss on the cheek? Well, that's fine, I think. As she draws closer, the entire world shakes incredibly violently, and just before she connects I realize I'm blinking up int Matsuri's face as she comes in for--
That, I think, was very reasonably handled.
I really enjoyed writing that sequence.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteI stare dumbly as Matsuri raises her head and looks hurt, disoriented from the abrupt transition.
Maybe "hurt and disoriented"?
Er. No.
Quote from: revisionI stare dumbly as Matsuri raises her head and looks hurt, but I'm still too disoriented from the abrupt transition to react much further yet.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuote"Shut up!" Matsuri cries, tears streaming down her face as she hops to her feet. "I hate you!"
... wow. Maybe people I know just have high standards such that it's inconceivable for them to allow children to yell "shut up" at anyone under any circumstances, but... all I'm thinking on reading this is, girl has issues. I kind of missed it developing to *that* emotionally overwrought level. Then again, that might be because Kyon, the narrator, completely missed it developing to that level as well.
Maybe some thought might need to be put into a couple of shades of plausibility lacquer to this. I may have missed the development due to either being thick (which would be a problem with me), or not considering the cousins except as scenery (which might be a problem for other people who were skimming the cousin parts), or due to actual insufficient development. It came out of the blue for me, since the whole "Matsuri is into Kyon" thing struck me just as a minor bit of quirky comedy before.
So, her other temper tantrum didn't register? Her trying to get Kyon to take a bath with her (more than once)? The temper tantrum she throws over the suggestion that he's 'on the phone with his girlfriend' when Yuki calls? The fact that she was the ringleader in hiding Kyon's schoolbooks to force him to 'play' with the cousins by finding them? The scene where she grabs the phone and yells at Haruhi for 'seducing' Kyon when he calls _her_, and hangs up the phone on her (which, incidentally, is where Yurie speaks with Haruhi)? The part where -- following that -- she throws another tantrum over being restricted from bothering Kyon in the morning for the rest of the golden week vacation?
Though, it squicked Sars as well, which is a pity; if she hadn't given up on reading the story already, I think she might have enjoyed the 'siege of the dread-cousin army' bit.
Perhaps us Americans are culturally biased to just expect children to be annoying little monsters the vast majority of the time. It's meant to show that Matsuri's being a brat, and while it may at times be annoying, also makes her a bit obvious as a character to foreshadow and pressage actual character growth as she gets over it.
Well -- I'm sorry it didn't work for you.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMIncidentally, I always get the unfortunate impression that Kyon's parents must be gullible from the fact that they let Haruhi drag him away on questionable exclusions.
And their near indifference to the circumstances leading to Kyon being in a coma. That's what prompted
Retrograde, actually; I was trying to deconstruct that.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteAs if to underscore that thought, Yurie darts out of the hall at top speed, skidding to a halt and nearly stumbling into the couch, eyes wide. "Kyon-nii!" she cries. "Matsu-chan is missing!"
Given the dire nature of the news, not sure if "underscore" is the right word. Maybe "as if to prove me wrong" or something else (not sure) with the point being that having nothing to do is not really the worst problem Kyon could be having... as Yurie's news immediately proves.
Changed to 'counter'.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteWell ... this isn't what I would have wanted by a long shot, but enough is enough.
The thought feels a bit muddled as it is now. I assume this isn't what Kyon wanted when he was looking for something to do, but it is something he *has* to do... not sure how to express that suitably.
Kyon: "I'm bored. I wish there were something interesting happening."
Plot: "YOUR COUSIN IS IN IMPLIED MORTAL DANGER."
Kyon: "I really wish I was still just bored, but can hardly sit around in the face of that!"
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteI don't see leading two little girls back up this trail.
"I don't see myself leading", maybe?
Sure.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PM... though as a rule, I notice your action scenes often feel more tightly written than the general scenes.
I've been told that's my strength in writing. Gotta work on the non-action bits. :x
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteWe spend the next few minutes trudging through the rain at a pace slightly slower than a jog -- and faster and we might slip in a muddy patch.
"any faster"?
Yep.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteThe ritual storage shed by the shrine? Thinking that, I increase our pace slightly; the shed isn't that far from the river, and with the dam overflowing already, and all this extra rain....
I don't know that I've ever made as fast a trip between Aunt Mion's house and the shrine grounds.
The last sentence doesn't really fit factually with "I increase our pace slightly". I guess edit the first part to remove the 'slightly'?
'slightly increase' meaning 'faster'. I guess it's possible to connotate that it's not very fast, but the pace was established as nearly jogging, so faster than that....
Since it bothers you, I just dropped the 'slightly'. It was repetition to a few lines above anyway.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMRedundant "that". Suggest "the first thing I notice".
Sure.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteAn unfamiliar statue in the back of the shed shifted, and she's pinned under it, floundering--
Suggest "has shifted".
"had", since it already happened. This was implied, but added specifically for clarity.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteIt takes only a glimpse of her terrified face to goad me into action. Some part of my mind distantly notes that the shed isn't as well constructed as I thought; the floor is earth, not stone. And that means that right now, it's more mud. Likely, that same distant part of my mind observes, it really is just sinking into the mud, and that's what all of the problems we're facing are for.
"are for"? Maybe "and that's the cause of all of the problems we're facing" or similar?
Alright.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMAnyhow, that was a monster of a chapter. Nice work -- sorry I didn't get around to it for so long... I'll see what other C&C I can muster up in the next little while...
Thanks for the feedback, Arakawa.
Again, it seems I was being more irritating than I have need to be ._.
I'll clarify my comments when I get home, but regarding Matsuri: I guess I failed to get across where exactly she crosses a line. It's realistic that she would throw a tantrum over this or any other silly thing, it was just a stretch to imagine a child saying outright "I hate you!" to an adult. It strikes me as associated with the context of the child being a horrible brat, or being a ordinary child subjected to some abuse that would genuinely drive her to hatred. Neither is really the case here.
That, in the end, is very possibly a failure of imagination on my part due to having been lucky in the range of children I had to deal with....
I think you're giving Matsuri too much credit in thinking she really understands the significance of what she's saying. For what it's worth, translators seem to take any degree of 'dislike' to equate to 'hate'. If it bothers you so much, I'll try and come up with something else a bratty child might shout at a heated moment.
I think "You suck!" doesn't sound IC or convey enough hurt for what follows.
The amount of times I basically lost track of my own point shows I'm out of practice at this C&C thing :-P
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMQuoteThen again, I've managed to achieve lucid dreaming (or this new thing that Haruhi made up that's really like lucid dreaming), so I suppose there's not as much point? In any case, I make a note of the math assignments that Haruhi mentioned, so I can work on those during the 'school' session with my cousins.
Arbitrary rejiggering suggestion: "or at least this new thing Haruhi made up that's really similar to lucid dreaming".
I'm not going to just ignore it out of hand, but ... why?
I think what I didn't like about the original sentence was repeated 'that': "thing
that Haruhi made up
that's really like". Then removing the that inspired me to rejigger the entire sentence... anyhow, there are probably other rejiggerings that get rid of the extra 'that'. Up to you if you want to bother.
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
That kind of connotates that the aunts are abandoning Kyon to handle that by himself. He's a role-model, but the aunts are actually leading the lessons. I'll expand to make it clearer:
Quote from: revisionAnd that meant as soon as I was done bathing, joining the effort to keep the cousins in line. This, naturally, would be by helping my aunts lead the unruly children to take their lessons more seriously.
That will probably work.
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PM<blah blah blah>
I ... don't have a constructive response for this.
Well, since it was all an attempt to justify the preceding suggestion... and you wound up clarifying what you meant... not sure a constructive response is necessary.
What non-constructive response did you have in mind?
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
Suggestion: When changing a very small number of minor details, maybe do something to provide emphasis on your changes, so they're more visible. I had to re-read it several times to realize you had suggested changing two words.
(I also disagree with the first one; the realization is present tense, but the actual event is past.)
Okay, I'll keep that in mind. I make the same mistake later on ^_^;; observe:
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PM"Smacked with pillows"? Unless you're coining some uncountable noun for cushions used in ballistic combat, like "cannon"?
I can't understand what you're trying to convey here. You feel 'smacked' is too gentle? Too rough?
... here the comment had nothing to do with 'smacked'; I was actually pointing out that you wrote "pillow" instead of "pillows" in your version:
Quote from: what you had
Multitudes of generic 'dread-cousins' are captured in warm caramel or smacked with pillow...
As you can see, that suggestion of yours to be more clear is indeed necessary.
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:15:49 PM
That sounds like the game tropers play with 'Better Than it Sounds' where they typically try and come up with nonsense deliveries that make whatever sound bizzare. Sometimes it's legit; Planetes really IS 'Janitors ... IN SPACE!' and sometimes they stretch. Here, it'd be a bit of a stretch.
Yeah, that was more of a peanut gallery observation... not surprised that tropers like to play that game.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 04, 2012, 05:34:16 PMAs an in medias res opening, it'd work, but on chapter eight, well ... that train has sailed.
Mixed metaphors are maximum fun!
Quote from: Brian on June 05, 2012, 06:48:41 PM
I think you're giving Matsuri too much credit in thinking she really understands the significance of what she's saying. For what it's worth, translators seem to take any degree of 'dislike' to equate to 'hate'. If it bothers you so much, I'll try and come up with something else a bratty child might shout at a heated moment.
I think "You suck!" doesn't sound IC or convey enough hurt for what follows.
Yeah, I'm not sure what to suggest... one other plausible alternative for what could happen is that Matsuri
could be frustrated enough by that point to react like that, but Aunt Rika would probably call that out as even more unacceptable behaviour. I can't see how to convey that without disrupting the way the rest of the scene plays out, though.
You're right, you might want to just ignore me on this. (I'll just imagine Aunt Rika going and telling Matsuri off, offscreen.) Since -- again, to be clear -- it's this one thing Matsuri does that seems out of place, not the general sequence of 'she keeps chasing Kyon, throws a tantrum, gets grounded, wanders off'. And I certainly didn't get squicked by it, it just... stood out as being way outside what I thought would be acceptable behaviour; either Matsuri wouldn't say that in the first place, or Aunt Rika would be fairly livid to see her crossing that line, not just sigh it off.
Anyways...
Other than that, I hope the C&C was helpful.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 05, 2012, 08:06:25 PM... here the comment had nothing to do with 'smacked'; I was actually pointing out that you wrote "pillow" instead of "pillows" in your version:
Yeah, that wasn't clear. It also didn't help that it had already been corrected, so I couldn't find that typo in the master file. >_>;
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 05, 2012, 08:06:25 PMYeah, that was more of a peanut gallery observation... not surprised that tropers like to play that game.
By 'game' I meant "actually shoehorning in everything they like into the 'Better Than it Sounds' page." >_>
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 05, 2012, 08:06:25 PMYeah, I'm not sure what to suggest... one other plausible alternative for what could happen is that Matsuri could be frustrated enough by that point to react like that, but Aunt Rika would probably call that out as even more unacceptable behaviour. I can't see how to convey that without disrupting the way the rest of the scene plays out, though.
You're right, you might want to just ignore me on this. (I'll just imagine Aunt Rika going and telling Matsuri off, offscreen.) Since -- again, to be clear -- it's this one thing Matsuri does that seems out of place, not the general sequence of 'she keeps chasing Kyon, throws a tantrum, gets grounded, wanders off'. And I certainly didn't get squicked by it, it just... stood out as being way outside what I thought would be acceptable behaviour; either Matsuri wouldn't say that in the first place, or Aunt Rika would be fairly livid to see her crossing that line, not just sigh it off.
Well, in Rika's case specifically, she has *beat* ungodly patience.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on June 05, 2012, 08:06:25 PMOther than that, I hope the C&C was helpful.
Thanks for the feedback.
It's bad when it takes you a full minute just to find your own thread.
Anyway, after a long hiatus due to work insanity and author laziness, chapter 9 is ready. Comments welcomed - I'm a little worried about this seeming disjointed since it was written in snips over several months.
The secret's out!
Not much to say for a first impression, but Haruhi is remarkably calm about finding out Mikuur's true secret, but I suppose she's been prepped for it well. Also, i find it very interesting that Atlantis is persistent even into the future. Seems like their work is better constructed than they thought!
I've been lurking on these forums for awhile, mainly for reading KBDH, IYD, and looking for recommendations. Thought this time I would make some comments:
QuoteHer real apartment is fairly plain, but feminine where there's something to be noticed -- flowers, lots of pink and pastels, that kind of thing
Although this can be hand-waved, I don't ever recall Haruhi ever being at Mikuru's place before. Also, if this is Mikuru's home in the far future, I would think that there would be some futuristic gizmos around the dream apartment that Haruhi couldn't identify that would further key Haruhi into thinking that the rooms were out of place for Mikuru's dream.
Quote"C'mon, Mikuru-chan, it's a _dream_. You couldn't fall off that thing if you didn't want to! At least as long as you remember that it's a dream, anyway."
QuoteI can feel the sweat starting to bead on my forehead before she finally gives up, shaking her head as she heads back out to the main room of the apartment with a sigh.
Silly Haruhi. You should remember your own advice. You can't involuntarily show signs of nervousness if you don't want to.
Quote"I'm not... very good at doing things this way, so... sorry in advance if I come across as pushy or mean here -- I'm really trying _not_ to."
When I say this aloud to myself, putting emphasis on the word "not" sounds out of place to me. I suggest not italicizing or boldfacing "not" here.
Quote"Going forward, though, keep coming to the dream! Actually... be _really_ sure to come tomorrow night - Kyon's definitely going to need to be brought in for this!"
I wonder if Kyon will put two and two together and realize that Mikuru was told to introduce Haruhi to lucid dreaming because it was time to let the secret out. "Big" Mikuru already knows the secret is out. Otherwise, I doubt "dreamtime" would be possible in the future since Haruhi would not have created it.
Fun chapter and excelent storytelling. Hope to see more soon.
Great chapter. Just a couple of observations:
Quotebut it's so unexpected you're just kind of dumbfounded until what's happening really kicks in.
Really not sure about this use of the expression 'kicks in'. Maybe if 'the realization of what's happening' or something was 'kicking in', rather than just the actual event. Or maybe 'until your mind adjusts to what's happening' or similar.
QuoteThe kitchen's fully stocked with everything I need, although it takes me a bit of hunting and fumbling through cabinets to actually find all the equipment I need and get the hot water going.
It bears observing that Haruhi could probably have just materialized hot freshly brewed tea >_>;;
Oh well, her mind is clearly on other things right now.
QuoteSure enough, she's got her hair up in a ponytail today, to which I give an approving nod.
This is probably a bit late for Haruhi to be checking that, since Mikuru appears earlier:
QuoteThe answer is a bit of a surprise when it comes, although it shouldn't have been. Sakanaka is waiting outside expectantly, looking a bit nervous as Tsuruya and Mikuru come to a halt behind her.
Given that Mikuru's ponytail would be at the front of Haruhi's mind, it feels a bit odd at that moment that she doesn't even mention glancing towards her to see if she's followed the instruction at this point.
(Of course, if Mikuru is facing Haruhi head-on (... well... and not moving her head around at all during the entire ensuing conversation...), whether or not she has a ponytail wouldn't be visible, which complicates things... I don't know. It just feels like this huge concern has temporarily dropped from Haruhi's mind if it's not even mentioned until several paragraphs down.)
Given all that, probably the most natural point to mention the ponytail would be when Mikuru follows Sakanaka into the room.
Quote"I'll get right on it," Koizumi nods, heading back out the door -- and passing Mikuru on her way in.
EDIT: now that I've taken another look, doesn't the above contradict this earlier:
QuoteShe nods, heading inside along with the two upperclassmen [i.e. Tsuruya and Mikuru]. "Um... sorry if I'm intruding on your meeting," she starts off.
The whole scene seems inconsistent on when Mikuru is in the room, when she's entering the room, and when Haruhi would logically glance to see if she's wearing a ponytail.
Quote from: oso on September 10, 2012, 06:33:18 AM
I've been lurking on these forums for awhile, mainly for reading KBDH, IYD, and looking for recommendations. Thought this time I would make some comments:
Thanks for delurking, and for the feedback!
Quote from: oso on September 10, 2012, 06:33:18 AM
Although this can be hand-waved, I don't ever recall Haruhi ever being at Mikuru's place before.
Actually she has. She dragged Mikuru out of her apartment when she was trying to hide there during the shooting of the movie.
Quote from: oso on September 10, 2012, 06:33:18 AMAlso, if this is Mikuru's home in the far future, I would think that there would be some futuristic gizmos around the dream apartment that Haruhi couldn't identify that would further key Haruhi into thinking that the rooms were out of place for Mikuru's dream.
Well, the main tipoff is that Mikuru is in an arcology-style building - probably several hundred stories tall, and far larger than anything that exists in the real world now, particularly for residential space.
As far as futuristic gadgets go, think about the modern era - how many things have been introduced (as household objects that you'd keep for decoration or what have you) in the past 30 years that someone from before then wouldn't recognize? About the only thing is a desktop computer, and those are even falling out of vogue for more portable devices. Everything trends towards miniaturization and being unobtrusive (at least with modern tech), so extrapolating that to Mikuru's time you wouldn't even -see- the really futuristic stuff they have, which fits with the cybernetic implants concept pretty well. So the gadgets are probably there somewhere, but not in a way that they'd pop out and scream at Haruhi that they're from some far-flung future.
Quote from: oso on September 10, 2012, 06:33:18 AMSilly Haruhi. You should remember your own advice. You can't involuntarily show signs of nervousness if you don't want to.
Case of easier said than done. None of them are exactly expert at this (yet, anyway.)
Quote from: oso on September 10, 2012, 06:33:18 AM
When I say this aloud to myself, putting emphasis on the word "not" sounds out of place to me. I suggest not italicizing or boldfacing "not" here.
Kind of inclined to leave this in; it seems natural enough to me. YMMV case, I think.
Thanks for the input, though!
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 13, 2012, 09:27:17 PM
Really not sure about this use of the expression 'kicks in'. Maybe if 'the realization of what's happening' or something was 'kicking in', rather than just the actual event. Or maybe 'until your mind adjusts to what's happening' or similar.
Missing some words. Should be "the realization of what's happening" etc, corrected now.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 13, 2012, 09:27:17 PM
It bears observing that Haruhi could probably have just materialized hot freshly brewed tea >_>;;
Oh well, her mind is clearly on other things right now.
Partly that and partly she doesn't know what Mikuru has in mind for her to do. If Mikuru's asking her (or her double) to make tea, it makes sense that she'd literally need to
make the tea. If she just wanted it materialized, she could have done that herself. Not to say that it couldn't happen, but Haruhi hasn't seen any of
her puppets manipulate the dream directly, so why would Mikuru's?
QuoteSure enough, she's got her hair up in a ponytail today, to which I give an approving nod.
This is probably a bit late for Haruhi to be checking that, since Mikuru appears earlier:
QuoteThe answer is a bit of a surprise when it comes, although it shouldn't have been. Sakanaka is waiting outside expectantly, looking a bit nervous as Tsuruya and Mikuru come to a halt behind her.
Given that Mikuru's ponytail would be at the front of Haruhi's mind, it feels a bit odd at that moment that she doesn't even mention glancing towards her to see if she's followed the instruction at this point.
(Of course, if Mikuru is facing Haruhi head-on (... well... and not moving her head around at all during the entire ensuing conversation...), whether or not she has a ponytail wouldn't be visible, which complicates things... I don't know. It just feels like this huge concern has temporarily dropped from Haruhi's mind if it's not even mentioned until several paragraphs down.)
Given all that, probably the most natural point to mention the ponytail would be when Mikuru follows Sakanaka into the room.
Quote"I'll get right on it," Koizumi nods, heading back out the door -- and passing Mikuru on her way in.
EDIT: now that I've taken another look, doesn't the above contradict this earlier:
QuoteShe nods, heading inside along with the two upperclassmen [i.e. Tsuruya and Mikuru]. "Um... sorry if I'm intruding on your meeting," she starts off.
The whole scene seems inconsistent on when Mikuru is in the room, when she's entering the room, and when Haruhi would logically glance to see if she's wearing a ponytail.
[/quote][/quote]
Did some considerable reworking of the scene, although pasting it would involve repasting the whole thing. Tsuruya's no longer present - she never does anything in the scene anyway, so there's no point to having her there. Mikuru still comes in right after Sakanaka, and so Koizumi doesn't pass her on the way in - but Haruhi does focus on Mikuru after he does.
As far as not paying attention to the ponytail early, Haruhi is a very focused person in general, so I can see her avoiding the distraction of checking out Mikuru while she's talking to Sakanaka. She's been distracted thinking about her all day anyway, and putting off the moment of truth isn't that big a stretch (to me at least).
As always, thanks for the feedback!
And chapter 10 is ready for review. The end is in sight!
Not much to correct:
QuoteI can't really be thrilled about that, but honest is what we were searching for, so I guess I'll have to hope that's for the best.
honesty
Other than that, just some nice family moments, some cute Haruhi/Kyon moments, and some interesting Mikuru moments.
Thanks for the correction, JonBob. :)
Just the one typo ("bee down"):
QuoteI know the phone lines have bee down, so it's not entirely his fault he couldn't call, but still.
Something I found implausible. We discussed this on IRC, just putting it up for posterity.
Not sure, but it seems to me that what Kyon shows them from the end of Disappearance and the subsequent conversation should be more than enough for Mikuru to piece things together about there being an older version of herself involved. If that's intentional, then the next bit of Kyon narration could be tweaked to make it a bit more easy to determine that it's a relief for him not to have worried about letting slip that information. Not understanding that point led to a lot of confusing speculation for me about how the memory transmission mechanism works and how they understand it to work... editing that bit is not particularly essential, though.
Hmmm.
I think Kyon's thoughts about Haruhi handling what he's not supposed to really covers that angle already, personally.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone.
Aaand ... a chapter eleven. Drawing very close to the, er, close of this one. :p
No errors that popped out at me, so... comments!
QuoteI could just imagine her leaping into the middle of the pack, flinging oversized goons in every direction with incredible martial arts...
I like this shoutout to BDH
Hmmm, so that's how Koizumi sees the brigade (through the lens of a gangster movie)? Mikuru is the wicked vixen, Yuki has powers but is predictable, and Kyon is the one in charge, but doesn't really know what's going on. That would make him mostly powerless and Haruhi the train itself?
Cliffhanger! Imma guess... Ryouko!
Edit:
Oh right, there is one thing that caught my eye, Haruhi's dream and pre-dream. It just feels out of place in the fic, since the transition is a bit abrupt. I had to stop and re-read a bit to establish whose PoV it was. Also, since that part was fairly abrupt, it caused me to have to evaluate where I was at for each subsequent scene change, even though the rest are just Kyon.
Quote"I guess that might be," I admit. Without my phone to check the time, I've got no real idea how long I've spent -- but surely aunt Yurie is done by now? "Alright -- I'll clean up here, then."
Aunt Rena maybe?
Oops, thanks for the catch Ristridin. :)
Quotebut Matsuri is still her more quietly reformed self. They share a side of the kotatsu while their mothers parcel out food.\
Got a weird random backslash at the end there. Also seeing it in the HTML source as a raw backslash, so should be straightforward to figure out where that came from.
QuoteShe did tell me that she wouldn't be able to make it to the dream tonight due to some other business she needed to take care of.
Umm... I'm curious how Mikuru managed to tell Haruhi that, in waking life. If they're under a sufficient degree of surveillance that Haruhi displaying knowledge that Mikuru is a time traveler would lead to trouble, wouldn't explicit mention of making it to a dream be enough to give things away to the time agency as well?
And if she communicates that in coded form, what was the nature of the code?
I may be misremembering how things went in the last chapter, but this strikes me as a plot hole.Post-IRC discussion: realistically speaking, Mikuru would not say in in so many words. However, it still
sounds like a plot hole the way it's phrased. Maybe
QuoteShe did manage to let me know that
or
QuoteShe did manage to warn me
Other than that, things seem to be coming along. With the way the fic is laid out, far too little has been revealed so far to comment on how it's looking to wrap up as a whole. Looking forward to the next chapter.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 31, 2012, 08:27:04 PM
Got a weird random backslash at the end there. Also seeing it in the HTML source as a raw backslash, so should be straightforward to figure out where that came from.
Easily fixed.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 31, 2012, 08:27:04 PM
Post-IRC discussion: realistically speaking, Mikuru would not say in in so many words. However, it still sounds like a plot hole the way it's phrased.
Changed to:
QuoteShe didn't say it outright, but she implied that she wouldn't be able to make it to the dream tonight due to some other business she needed to take care of.
Thanks again for the commentary, and I'll probably get this chapter posted later today.
Penultimate chapter! Thought this would be the last one, but it ended up running a little longer than expected.
Not a whole lot of feedback, but here area couple of things I noticed. I probably missed some things because I was distracted by reading the chapter itself. :)
QuoteEight hours by train from Nishinomiya to Aomori, then another two hours on a local line from Aomori to Okinomiya -- the closest city we could reach via public transportation, where we spent the night last night.
This seems a little odd because the clarification is opened with an em dash, but closed with a comma. I'd use an em dash to open and close.
Quote"I should make her put her proper pajamas off, but I don't want to make her stay up any longer if she's so worn out,"
s/off/on
Quote from: Empyrean on December 31, 2012, 09:33:36 PM
Not a whole lot of feedback, but here area couple of things I noticed. I probably missed some things because I was distracted by reading the chapter itself. :)
Thanks regardless. Feedback's been kind of light in general of late. =P
Quote from: Empyrean on December 31, 2012, 09:33:36 PM
QuoteEight hours by train from Nishinomiya to Aomori, then another two hours on a local line from Aomori to Okinomiya -- the closest city we could reach via public transportation, where we spent the night last night.
This seems a little odd because the clarification is opened with an em dash, but closed with a comma. I'd use an em dash to open and close.
This was... I was...
You know, I don't think I have any idea what I was thinking when I wrote this? o_o
QuoteEight hours by train from Nishinomiya to Aomori, then another two hours on a local line from Aomori to Okinomiya -- the closest city we could reach via public transportation -- which is where we spent the night last night.
Other note is fixed as well, but I'm too lazy to quote it out. =P
And last chapter done and (finally) posted. Thanks to everyone that's been following and feeding back!
Amazing job. Thanks a lot for the story!
Just two typos to report:
Quote
most ofour friends' bosses really are jerks
"ofour" -> "of our"
Quote
"Come on, doens't anyone else have anything to say?"
"doens't" -> "doesn't"
C&C cartridges loaded!
QuoteSeem like they like you to me,
Seems to me that they like you?
QuoteWe were only hardly introduced last night, right?"
We were barely introduced last night, right?
Quotehis cousins have all been cooped up inside almost the entire last week straight
A bit awkward, a lot of modifications (inside, almost, entire, last week, straight)
Quotethere's no teasing in this, now, and I swallow at the serious gaze she's giving me
Maybe remove the first comma?
QuoteThere are plenty of places nearby, but in the rain....
Wait, is it raining or are you referring to since it's been raining?
QuoteWell, she'd figured out Asahina-san, so steel myself.
Missing an "I"?
QuoteBut I've learned to not let what I've learned
Repeat of learned
This chapter feels a little incomplete, like there's no additional fallout from the revelations or shifts in the group dynamic (sequel? epilogue?). Also the talk with Rika seems to have been brought up, but nothing really done with it. Other than that, pretty enjoyable.
Thanks for the feedback. Not calling out line-by-line since a. most of them are straight typo fixes and b. I forgot to record the changes as I made them. =P