[Haruhi] In Your Dreams

[thepanda]

And glad you liked the dream! I didn't really have anything specific in mind when setting up the dreamscape for this one; just stuff that Haruhi would find fun/weird/appropriately epic as needed.

Heh. I've been playing Fate/Extra again, and there is a dungeon pretty much exactly like the beginning of the dream.

[alethiophile]

Rather than waste my breath on a reply, I move in to attack! The fight is actually pretty uneven, though; he's got a lot longer reach with that giant axe, but I can move a lot quicker than he can since my sword's a lot smaller - so after I duck under his first swing, I jump in close and start slashing away at him.

As a general rule, don't use exclamation marks in narration. This...might actually work, given that it's first-person and Haruhi's POV, but it's a thing to generally avoid; it sounds like someone trying to generate excitement via punctuation rather than by actually making the scene exciting.

The fight scene looks quite good. It's not quite how I usually do it, since my fights are usually actually real and deadly serious, but the tone of it fits in just nicely with the dream. And Haruhi's typically over-the-top methods of winning are wonderful.

[Oroboro]

Loved it! The fight scene was good; light heated and silly. If you think it's lacking, or wanted to add more, I'd suggest ramping up the sword-fight a bit. Put more emphasis on the massive swings of the axe, crashing into the ground and splitting the earth. Let Haruhi catch one dead on with her shield, struggling before finally throwing him back. Something like that.

It's fine the way it is really, but if you wanted more, that's just a suggestion.


I can't really see technical stuff to point out, but one thing did stand out to me.

"S...sorry," I manage. "I wasn't-- You never told me this was your plan, was all," I manage, almost mumbling, her fists still full of my coat, resting on my chest. The surprisingly clear worry on her face fades somewhat, though she doesn't move away.

I just can't hear Kyon stuttering. Maybe I need to go re-watch the anime (And in Japanese instead of English - I've noticed my idea of Kyon's voice is slightly different than yours due to that.) or re-read the novels, but Kyon stumbling over his words seems a bit off to me. (I noticed this in the epilogue of Sympathy as well, but Kyon was really, really shaken up at that point.)

Anyway, great work over all, and I can't wait to see how the story unfolds.

[sarsaparilla]

Taking the two chapters together, there is a lot of interesting development going on. Kyon's and Haruhi's interactions feel natural, though there seem to be some PoV changes where things are left vague, e.g., what was Haruhi's PoV concerning the first disconnection, or how during the last dream sequence Kyon -- and to a lesser extent Haruhi -- seems to be completely unconcerned about what happened on the previous time.

The amount of fan service and its on-your-face quality was more than I could find comfortable, and affected my ability to enjoy the story.

Killing another person in a dream, especially for entertainment, is something that I simply cannot see in a positive light, because it suggests that the dreamer actually derives pleasure from the act. Furthermore, the way it is portrayed here makes me believe that the reader is also supposed to find the act satisfying, but it only horrified me and made me question Haruhi's mental sanity. This single issue is in stark contrast with the rest of the story. I know that the few occasions when I haven't been in full control of my dream and gotten into a situation where I have to kill somebody to defend myself have reduced me to a nervous wreck for the rest of the night, unable to sleep ... but here the issue is portrayed as if it were some kind of a sport.

[Brian]

I'm not going to touch the Haruhi-specific issues, much, since Hal is writing her PoV.

Taking the two chapters together, there is a lot of interesting development going on. Kyon's and Haruhi's interactions feel natural, though there seem to be some PoV changes where things are left vague, e.g., what was Haruhi's PoV concerning the first disconnection, or how during the last dream sequence Kyon -- and to a lesser extent Haruhi -- seems to be completely unconcerned about what happened on the previous time.

Oh?  I thought I'd touched on it with Kyon -- he's concerned about why Haruhi left and that keeps him from playing around and doing anything 'fun' in his dream.  I think I can bring it more into his thoughts that he's worried about it ... there's no reason to play with him thinking that it's not 'real', given his past experiences and Yuki's explanation.

Yeah -- I can see that this is a spot that can use a bit of refinement; the circumstances of Haruhi's disappearnace from the dream should weigh on him a bit more until he goes to make the phone call.  I'll revise my part on that later tonight.

Killing another person in a dream, especially for entertainment, is something that I simply cannot see in a positive light, because it suggests that the dreamer actually derives pleasure from the act. Furthermore, the way it is portrayed here makes me believe that the reader is also supposed to find the act satisfying, but it only horrified me and made me question Haruhi's mental sanity. This single issue is in stark contrast with the rest of the story. I know that the few occasions when I haven't been in full control of my dream and gotten into a situation where I have to kill somebody to defend myself have reduced me to a nervous wreck for the rest of the night, unable to sleep ... but here the issue is portrayed as if it were some kind of a sport.

This was Hal's more than mine, but....

After thinking about it, I can see an argument for Haruhi subjegating rather than destroying.  As I understand, this is the kind of change that's harder to bring into a dream than just getting rid of an unwanted element, but I suspect that wouldn't stop Haruhi, would it?  Yeah, I can see a case for her wanting to lord her victory over the defeated more than just pushing him off the screen and out-of-mind.

Anyway.  Sorry the fanservice is bothering you (incidentally, the idiom is 'in-your-face' :p).  In my research on lucid dreams, it turns out that 'fanservice' (to put it mildly) is one of the most popular things for people to actually do there, though.  I was a bit surprised at first, but then, well ... human nature being what it is....

* Brian shrugs.

Anyway -- Hal also suggested you might want to join the IRC channel to discuss this (or other things in more detail), so I thought I'd pass that message along as well.  In the meantime, I'll see what I can do for Kyon's seeming lack of concern for Haruhi (didn't want it to come across that way).

[Oroboro]

If the violence / killing is a problem, just have Haruhi blast him into the sky Team Rocket style as he swears revenge. =P

[Brian]

Actually, we talked about that -- he's going to be recurring (more likely than not) so I like the idea of him not being particularly perturbed, and showcasing that the 'fight' really is just a game.  Something like, "Next time, Gadget!" or "I'll be back!" as he falls, so there's no ambiguity, while still fitting into the trope of ... can't recall off the top of my head.  Ambiguous off-screen demise?  Something like that? :p

Edit: Oh, yeah.  "This was merely a setback!"  Round two needs to be in the Computer Research Society's Terrace.

[Halbarad]

Yeah, the fight scene is meant to be more cartoonish/shonen-style in terms of scope; there's no blood, the 'death' is meant to be fairly ambiguous (he's falling off the cliff into a fogbank, basically), and the over-the-top nature of the 'deathblow' is meant to show that this isn't really anything serious. I'll probably change it up by having the prez screaming defiance even while he's falling, and having him as a recurring villain is not terribly unlikely.

In regards to the fanservice, that note regarding lucid dreams frequently involving sex is something I've been considering. I don't really envision taking this in any kind of lemon/lime/other-citrus-of-your-choice direction, but it does touch on an issue that isn't really brought up much in Haruhi fiction, at least; the characters are in their late teens here, and they're definitely becoming more aware of their sexuality in general.

The vehicle of sharing dreams gives them an opportunity to play around with this a bit more without much more risk than just embarrassment in front of the other (and I think they're both comfortable enough with each other to risk that at this point). It'll likely come across in the fic in the form of a lot of fanservice and teasing, just to see how much they can get a reaction out of each other.

[sarsaparilla]

The issue is, this is a lucid dream we are talking about, not a game nor a TV show. Lucid as in "for all practical purposes and what your senses are telling you, just like reality -- except slightly more real". So, when you kill another person, you experience it in the most personal possible way. You can feel how the knife cuts the flesh, how the hot blood and intestines spill between your fingers and make them slippery, you can smell the breath of your victim as he struggles, convulses and eventually stops moving; you are right there ... all the way until you wake up, screaming. Personally, I find the experience even worse than dying myself, or getting raped when it comes to that, because it directly assaults my self-image.

Finding some outlandish, completely unrealistic way to get rid of the villain should work -- anything that doesn't invoke actual, violent killing. Launching him to an orbit while he screams "I'll be back!" should be acceptable.

After Haruhi's first disappearance, Kyon does act as one would expect. It's more about Haruhi not mentioning the issue in any way, as when we see her the next time she's only thinking about the possible phone call, and we don't know what she actually tried to do and why it failed, as seen from her own perspective.

During the final dream sequence it's more about Kyon being, apparently, completely unconcerned about Haruhi's coercion during the previous time, and unwary of what she may have done/learned after that.

When people do ... unusual things in lucid dreams, it's a combination of them being able and the complete privacy provided by the environment, and this story is mostly lacking the privacy part. I certainly haven't been a prude, especially after finding out that in my dreams I can experience feelings that the real world denies me, though my adventures have been tempered by the fact that I cannot control other people in my dreams. But yes ... in the dreams I shamelessly accept anything that is offered. It still doesn't mean that I'd be particularly eager to entertain myself with mental images of Haruhi in a french maid uniform as seen from below.

If you don't mind, I would prefer to stay away from IRC. I have never used it but I've understood that it's a real-time communication channel, and that would be very stressful to use.

[Brian]

Finding some outlandish, completely unrealistic way to get rid of the villain should work -- anything that doesn't invoke actual, violent killing. Launching him to an orbit while he screams "I'll be back!" should be acceptable.

I'm singling this out as a fairly good example of a constructive comment.  Can I ask that you be a bit more forthcoming with suggestions in the future, instead of waiting for a reply or two to spring them?  Suggestions are very welcome, and the 'you're doing it wrong!' feedback without suggestions is a bit harder to use.

During the final dream sequence it's more about Kyon being, apparently, completely unconcerned about Haruhi's coercion during the previous time, and unwary of what she may have done/learned after that.

Sorry -- what coercion?  You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?

It still doesn't mean that I'd be particularly eager to entertain myself with mental images of Haruhi in a french maid uniform as seen from below.

I'm ... not clear on what the issue or suggestion on this one is?  In story at least, that whole thing was an accident (as Haruhi's thoughts should make it clear later).  I'm pretty sure Haruhi wearing that outfit was also explained to be accidental on Haruhi's part (but she's got too much pride to admit it and put on something less revealing).  Sorry -- is this a suggestion on something we could change to improve the story, or just a complaint?  If it's the former, I'd like to hear more about it.

If it's the latter, I can only apologize.

I have never used it but I've understood that it's a real-time communication channel, and that would be very stressful to use.

I thought that would be the case; it's why I never suggested it myself. >_>;;

That's understandable, so no worries about that.

Then again, maybe I should bow out of this discussion -- all of it seems to center around Hal's scenes instead of mine, for once.

[Arakawa]

The notion of Kyon involuntarily shrinking in response to Haruhi's questioning, I would say, just works. It encapsulates much of the difficulty of the whole situation. And it justifies the use of lucid dreaming specifically, for the purpose of character development and not just as a neat gimmick, since it gives Haruhi a basis on which to sympathize with Kyon's situation and his inability to reveal more information.

So, mad props on that one.

However.

She looks irritated, though I'm not sure if it's at me or the whole situation. She stands up, giving me a perfect, unintentional view of--

Thinking about this part gives me a bit of a headache.

The mental image -- specifically of what a skirt looks like from underneath -- has to originate in someone's mind. Given than Kyon's mental image is Haruhi as a threatening giant towering over him (which doesn't really make one think immediately "he would logically be looking up her skirt", and would probably instead result in some kind of Magic Skirt illusion when he was looking from below), and given Haruhi's subsequent musings, I can only assume that Haruhi was the one to (perhaps involuntarily) originate the notion, which is... almost okay... I guess... but it seems useful to track what sorts of impressions these moments are revealing. To me the implication is that Haruhi is accidentally flashing Kyon. In and of itself that would be fine, but given that dreams are extremely malleable, when reading this I have to keep putting aside the obvious background thought that, two or three seconds of picturing the wrong thing and they could wind up in an extremely awkward situation of the "let us never speak of this again" variety. This results in a lot of tension I'm reading out of this that just isn't there in the narrative, according to its own premises.

This is less of an issue in situations like the fight scene or exploring the castle or in Hinamizawa, where they're caught up in an implicit narrative, and more of an issue when they're specifically confronting one another and you deliberately bring fanservice (and thus awkward/sexual overtones) into the picture. Then it becomes like that joke about asking someone not to think of a monkey, except with a very unpleasant implied punchline.

I'm guessing this has some overlap with what sarsaparilla found distracting about the fanservice portions? Anyhow, that's what struck me personally as distracting.

I would go so far as to strongly suggest invoking Magic Skirt during the shrinking scene; perhaps lampshaded later when Haruhi wakes up and realizes that, logically, he would have been able to see up her skirt, but it somehow didn't actually happen in the dream. This could have the benefit of firmly establishing that they're not going to get into any situation they don't explicitly wish to get into (which is a rule that the skirt incident actually violates; it's... someone's stray thought which neither one was intending to enter the dream), which fully mitigates the squick factor of fanservice situations being a stray thought away from inadvertent physical intimacy; and also, really, the skirt incident is a bit too much, piled onto an already tense scene which had been working well up to that point.

Actually, the more I think about this the less I like the implications of the skirt incident as written, and the less I can explain it. I think the key issue is that control of a dream is accomplished by mental imagery rather than physical actions, in a way that's difficult to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it, and so an incident where an awkward situation is produced without either of the characters specifically intending it to happen, throws the door to the idea that any sort of stray thought has a chance of manifesting in a manner fully visible to the other person. Even if nothing like that winds up happening, it makes the characters feel like they're both in a vulnerable and risky situation by going into each other's dreams.

Wow, judging by how I can't seem to organize my thought process on that one, that really seems to have touched a nerve with my emotional side. Fascinating. (Again, I'm usually disconnected from my emotions; however, the emotions still exist and can make themselves known by affecting my ability to focus my mind properly on an emotional subject.) Just... it's not such a big deal since I didn't find the implications until I went through the fic intending to C&C and thought about it carefully, moreover, I'm not about to waste time bringing my emotions online just so I can feel distressed by this. It's more like "oh, so this is what genuine squick is like. Fascinating."

_{(The above sounds kind of bitter. That's mostly because it's touching on my own issues, not the issues in the fic.)}

Uhm, anyhow. I just kind of feel bad now that this is an issue since so many of the other things in these chapters have been done right. The overall outcome that Kyon and Haruhi are communicating, the subplot where Haruhi tries to follow up on Kyon's clue... this is overall a far more substantial and interesting fic than what I'd been looking forward to (based specifically on this idea) even in my wildest, uhm, dreams.

Regarding killing dream characters -- actually, probably biased to remark on this in detail. My mind is probably in a similar place to sarsaparilla in that it apparently accords dream characters with an independent existence. It didn't occur to me that this is an issue in the chapter, since the dream characters even earlier work so obviously differently. Making the situation and the details of the fight even more cartoony and nonthreatening is certainly a safe bet.

One thing to keep in mind (echoing sars' latest comment on this): dreams are more realistic because they can recreate any combination of impressions, and that includes emotional content. Imagine if you could write video games, say, in which you could explicitly give the monsters a 'scary' attribute, and that would not only cause the player to see the monster on screen, but actually feel fear (independently of how scary or ridiculous it actually looks). That's sort of the issue that you might start running into as you develop further dream sequences.

Overall: really good job, the fic is hitting its stride, feeling bad that one little thing is causing unpleasant implications and distracting me from the 95% that's excellent about this. It's not even going to prevent me from following the fic as you develop it further, but looking at the commentary I've offered above I'm really not sure if it's going to be at all useful or not >_<

[sarsaparilla]

Sorry -- what coercion?  You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?

Yes, Haruhi's behavior feels rather coercive (as it does while she's out 'shopping' with Mikuru, too).

I'm ... not clear on what the issue or suggestion on this one is?  In story at least, that whole thing was an accident (as Haruhi's thoughts should make it clear later).  I'm pretty sure Haruhi wearing that outfit was also explained to be accidental on Haruhi's part (but she's got too much pride to admit it and put on something less revealing).  Sorry -- is this a suggestion on something we could change to improve the story, or just a complaint?

It's more of a meta-fictional concern; unlike with the anime where I can decided by myself where to look, in a written work I have to share the point of view and the focus of the narrator, even when I'd rather look elsewhere, and that can be ... disagreeable, if I don't happen to also share the preferences of the narrator.

Basically, there's too much teasing / convenient accidents to my liking, but since it's just me, you can dismiss the issue as being irrelevant. The canon has some of that as well and I've tried to ignore it when present.

[Brian]

Sorry -- what coercion?  You mean the bit where she pressures Kyon to explain what he knows about Mikuru?

Yes, Haruhi's behavior feels rather coercive (as it does while she's out 'shopping' with Mikuru, too).

Hmmm....  I can round out Kyon's conversation with Rika with his apprehension over things going wrong with Haruhi's investigation.  That might work to help address that -- and then follow it up with him realizing they were so distracted by the nonsense-battle against the CRSP that it didn't cross his mind until he woke up to more bad news.

Chapter 5 is short in general, and especially Kyon's scenes -- so that suits me well.  Does this sound like it might help address things?

It's more of a meta-fictional concern; unlike with the anime where I can decided by myself where to look, in a written work I have to share the point of view and the focus of the narrator, even when I'd rather look elsewhere, and that can be ... disagreeable, if I don't happen to also share the preferences of the narrator.

Basically, there's too much teasing / convenient accidents to my liking, but since it's just me, you can dismiss the issue as being irrelevant. The canon has some of that as well and I've tried to ignore it when present.

Arakawa stated some very eloquent reasons why it could cause problems.

My issue is that I'm not familiar enough with lucid dreaming to grasp things like that intuitively; I forgot that nothing can happen if one of them doesn't want (or at least expect) it to on some level, which suddenly puts a layer of 'intent' into what was supposed to be an accident -- or else we need to lampshade that the shared space follows different rules.  Hmm.  It might actually be somewhat funny if Haruhi thinks Kyon did see up her skirt, but the reality of the situation is that that he wasn't thinking about it, and so the 'magic skirt' effect kicked in.

That'd also allow for the unexpectedness of the CRSP battle as being something both of them find amusing.  Kyon just to tease Haruhi, and Haruhi for the really convenient change of subject.

[Oroboro]

To add a counterpoint in regards to the skirt issue -

I think the shrinking scene has a sort of interesting dualism going on. On one hand, there's a very serious discussion as Kyon struggle to come up with an explanation. At the same time, he's also struggling with the view.

Kyon is a bit of a perv. In both the anime and novels he absolutely cannot keep his eyes to himself, even though he tries to pretend otherwise. If anything, I'd say Kyon should draw a bit more attention to it. Maybe in the middle of his attempts to explain himself he blurts out with "Could you put some freaking pants on!"

At least in my experience, dreams are far more likely to reflect the logic of television, anime, and video games, so the magic skirt might be a decent option anyway.

[Muphrid]

I try very hard not to think about the idea I had briefly of summoning a Mikuru of some sort--  "Nothing at all!"

Asahina?

Though her grin doesn't diminish in the slightest, Haruhi's outfit remains.

If her mirth isn't diminished, is it unusual that Haruhi's outfit would remain?

"My other aunts are Fuurude Rika, Houjou Shion, Houjou Satoko and Ryuugu Rena," I answer.  "They've been visiting with my parents while I watch over the cousins, mostly."

Is it not (going by wiki) "Furude" and "Ryuuguu"?

I'm not about to tell anyone I had a dream that ended in a way that reminded me of an uncomfortable set of days last December!  Aside from which, my family remember those same days very, very differently from me.  A whole different set of things I don't want to talk about with them.

Is there some way to improve the "that ended in a way that" part?  It feels like one of the "that"s could be cut with a restructuring.

Yurie, providing a better behaved example, helps my little sister drag the exciteable little blue-haired girl to the gaming table with the rest of the cousins.

Excitable.

"I sure didn't call you last night! How else would I have given you orders?"

Man, Haruhi's really gonna make him work for it.  Good times.

"I'm- I..." she splutters briefly, then shakes her head. "Okay, I can admit that I've thought about something like that, but there's no way it would ever go any further than that!"

For this moment, Asahina slips into tone and phrasing that is rather frank.  "Okay, I can admit..."  That approach seems like a deviation from how she usually acts.  I think Asahina would be more reluctant while she admits such a flight of fancy unless it's intended as a glimpse of some inner personality we've yet to see.  And despite my concern about the first half of the sentence, "there's no way it would ever go any further than that!" seems entirely appropriate.


In general, this scene with Asahina does do well to have Haruhi forge a better relationship there, to consider Asahina's feelings about being shown as a mascot.  Very positive all around.


I like that Kyon justifies the thought of telling Haruhi the truth by thinking that Asahina deserves his protection as much as Nagato does.  Not wanting to spill the beans unilaterally also makes sense, and trying to split the difference by telling her to seek out Nagato seems reasonable.

"Friendship is important," she says solemly, even though I can see the hints of a smile in her eyes.  "I'm sorry Kyon-kun has to be away from his friends.  Even if they aren't close, keep them in your heart, doki doki!"

Solmenly.

This is somehow more embarassing than shrinking in front of Haruhi in our dream!

Embarrassing.

I almost ask about Aunt Mion and Aunt Rika before remembering that as a community leaders, both of them are going to be occupied helping with the relief efforts.  "You can count on me," I say, climbing up out of my futon and recieving a solemn clap on the shoulder from my uncle before he joins my father in the hall, both of them rushing towards the door.

Receiving.


Well then, an interesting couple of chapters.  Things seem to be moving along at a good clip.  Nagato having such a profound reaction to Haruhi's suspicions seems to slow things down and give them space to develop, which isn't bad, but we'll have to see what her explanation is for having such a reaction.


Finally, regarding IRC:  though it is a real-time medium, one can enter the channel and refrain from sending any messages to it just to listen and get an idea of the pace of it, to become more acclimated to the notion if one chooses.  Something to think about, sarsaparilla (or anyone else reluctant to venture in there), if at some point you wish to reconsider.