Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

I must begin by apologizing that this isn't new. The truth is that I've been struggling to find the proper motivation to write a fic that's been on my mind for quite some time, but before I move forward I want some solid advice on the only multichapter work I ever attempted.

The Severance of Haruhi Suzumiya (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5226177/1/The_Severance_of_Haruhi_Suzumiya)

Admittedly, it's about a year and a half old at this point and I'd always thought of it as completed although I'm not discounting that if there is enough feedback to warrant some major alterations that a rewrite could be in order (of what magnitude I know not). Since I do have some distance from the work though thanks to time I'm able to perceive at least a few of the shortcomings that I wasn't aware of at the time, and also taken into consideration some of the more helpful commentary I got at the time.

I know that this is a strange step, but I'm going to outline the faults that I know are in there, but spoiler them so that people don't have any preconceptions going in; whether you agree, disagree, think the list should be twice as long, or whatever, I believe it's at least useful to have this as a baseline:



There's likely more, but that's why I'm asking for feedback here. I admit that I had a wonderful beta in Arty D'Arc and that it would have been markedly worse without her presence, but even in spite of that I know that there's a lot that leaves something to be desired. I hope that it's still an enjoyable story despite this, but before I can move on I need to know where my weaknesses and strengths are, and the only way to do that is to have a group that knows what they're talking about look at it. Thank you in advance for any help or advice you can give.

Are you rewriting this, or just sounding out the general quality of writing in general to prepare yourself for the next story you're thinking about?

The difference between these will determine the depth of my own comments, since (no offense), I'll probably discuss the vagaries more than the specifics in the case of the latter case.

Quote from: Brian on January 11, 2012, 10:38:44 PM
The difference between these will determine the depth of my own comments, since (no offense), I'll probably discuss the vagaries more than the specifics in the case of the latter case.

No offence taken. After all if there's not going to be any changes then I'd be quite rude to ask for an in depth breakdown of everything. I also know that my grammar is kind of horrible all things considered, so there would probably be a lot to fix in that regard as well.

At the moment I'm not planning on rewriting it. Frankly though if enough people (yourself included of course) think that there's enough issues and things to be improved to merit a rewrite then I certainly would.

All things told a chapter by chapter rewrite might also be just the thing to actually get me to move from a static state.

Well--  I'll take a look tomorrow, then.  It's been a long while since I've read this....

Anyway, don't let other people determine if you need a rewrite; that's your decision.  If you're happy with the story, then that should be fine, right? ;)

I'd been meaning to give some thoughts on this piece even before this post, but now I really have the impetus to do so.  I'll try to focus on broad things and only point out specifics as things that may be improved in the future if you wish.

So, I think (I think) I've read this before, though I can't say when or if it was even completed at the time.  Hence, this will be a bit of rediscovery for me as well.


Chapter One

I like the opening, love in many different languages.  It's a good, literary sort of way to start.

The first few lines of a story are pretty critical.  Something I notice right away with the second paragraph:

QuoteI found both things out the hard way, and now I'm not so sure what to do about it. My name is... well, my name's not important, everyone just calls me Kyon anyways, so I guess it's what I'll go by. Anyways, this is the story of a girl I know, a self-centered, egotistical brat, but also paradoxically a talented and uniquely wonderful girl named Haruhi Suzumiya, and plain old boring me. This is a story about how we broke each others hearts.

Kyon is a bit self-effacing here and his words a bit casual.  Given his feelings later on, this isn't a bad tone to set, though.  It's just what I take out of it.

I think overall in this chapter your sense of Kyon is good.  He has the sort of reactions I'd expect--a slightly restrained sense of thinking on his feet and reacting honestly to what he sees.  Haruhi's admission that she loves him and that he's helped her see things in a new light is sweet, and the idea that she would still want to find John Smith is logical.  There are no problems there.

What I realized at the end of this chapter is that it's direct.  It gets right to the point, so to speak, and doesn't spend much time dilly-dallying on the way.  There are pros and cons to this approach.  At the beginning of a story, I do think getting to the central premise quickly is a smart thing to do.  On the other hand, Koizumi and Nagato (and even Asahina, to an extent) are used her to inform Kyon of oncoming trouble.  Kyon informs us he's been seeing Haruhi for several months, and we don't really see them for any length of time as boyfriend and girlfriend.  These are efficient techniques for getting to the point right away, but the cost, I feel, is that they build anticipation and suspense mostly on just an intellectual level.

Nevertheless, I feel like Kyon's reactions to Haruhi and the profound sense of irony are good, and since all the other stuff above is not really the focus, I imagine, it's not a bad thing to give them less time and get to the central conflict right away.  I wouldn't worry about that, then, though I'll keep an eye on such points in future chapters, nibbling away at this in chunks as I can.

QuoteWhat I realized at the end of this chapter is that it's direct.  It gets right to the point, so to speak, and doesn't spend much time dilly-dallying on the way.  There are pros and cons to this approach.  At the beginning of a story, I do think getting to the central premise quickly is a smart thing to do.  On the other hand, Koizumi and Nagato (and even Asahina, to an extent) are used her to inform Kyon of oncoming trouble.  Kyon informs us he's been seeing Haruhi for several months, and we don't really see them for any length of time as boyfriend and girlfriend.  These are efficient techniques for getting to the point right away, but the cost, I feel, is that they build anticipation and suspense mostly on just an intellectual level.

Actually, you've just made me remember a very important point: this story was actually originally written as a one shot. The premise occurred to me one day after watching yet another episode of Endless Eight and I wrote it as a single chapter "what if" story, never intending to actually continue it from the end. That's why there's no build up and the relationship was just taken as a given. I don't think it really excuses anything, but it might frame the first chapter in a somewhat different light.

Thank you for the input so far!

I definitely understand the urge to write something after a particular experience; I feel like such pieces tend to be more cathartic as a train-of-thought experience than something that's planned and shaped on a strong, conscious level.  It serves a different purpose from other writing, or I imagine it so.


Anyway, some remarks about chapter two:

QuoteEven after being passed out for so long, I was able to get out of the school before they locked it up. Good thing too; I didn't feel like explaining the situation to an irate or nosy janitor, and it wasn't like I could make heads or tails of what had just happened anyway. Haruhi was in love with me; but she was in love with John Smith—who is me—more. Of course she didn't know it was me, so being with me must have reminded her of what John Smith was like ...

Kyon was passed out?  He fainted?  He fell asleep after Haruhi broke up with him?

QuoteEveryone has always considered me as some anchor, some rock, some person to turn to in the time of crisis. But I'm not the Rock of Gibraltar. I can't hold off every enemy, I can't succeed in every situation. I couldn't do anything but watch in horror as Asahina-san was kidnapped, and I was powerless when Nagato fell ill not once, but twice (well, okay, the second time I made a difference, but only in the nick of time). I'm not cut out to be a leader, especially not of a merry band like this! Even Robin Hood would have flipped his cap if he had to deal with an alien, a time traveler, an esper, and on top of that, a girl who could alter reality on a whim but didn't know it.

This is an interesting perspective on Kyon--that in a time of crisis and stress he can see himself as a powerless dwarf among giants.  This feels like a good extension of what might stick at the back of Kyon's mind most of the time, for that powerlessness would surely play into what he's feeling now.

Quote"That is all I ask. I realize that you must be aware of Haruhi's intentions."

This is Koizumi's dialogue, so it should naturally be "Suzumiya-san's" intentions.


The conversation with Koizumi in the courtyard is...somewhat puzzling to me.  I went over it a few times to make sure I got it properly.  Koizumi is asking Kyon not to reveal that he's John Smith to Haruhi, and Kyon says he won't live with the guilt of withholding information from her, but this is what he's already done in canon.  What about this situation has changed?  That Haruhi is now actively seeking John Smith?  If so, Kyon should recognize that and, in my opinion, say this is why he's willing to do things differently.  It need not be a totally rational decision--he clearly doesn't care about any possible consequences, and that emphasizes his state of mind.  Nevertheless, I feel there's a small point of logic that's going unsaid.

...or, maybe it's just said in the next chapter.


Koizumi's stance seems slightly impenetrable to me, too.  He says at one point that Kyon is asking Koizumi to choose between him or Haruhi, and while in the context of Kyon refusing to rekindle a relationship with Haruhi I can understand that.  In the context of Kyon keeping or not keeping the truth from her, I'm not sure I follow.


In keeping with what I said about the first chapter, there does strike me as some missed opportunity for depth and background.  Kyon is quite visibly stunned throughout the chapter and reeling, but it all feels a little nonspecific.  This is a chance to puctuate his emotional state with something personal--a fond memory from during their relationship, say.  I definitely sympathize with Kyon in this chapter; I just want to feel a little more of how he's twisted up inside as well, if that makes sense.

I also noticed Kyon's references to Greek mythology--a nice, literary touch.  It can also emphasize that Kyon is well-read in using mythological figures from around the world, not just local ones.

QuoteKyon was passed out?  He fainted?  He fell asleep after Haruhi broke up with him?

Being struck into a stupor is what I was probably trying to go for there, but it didn't quite work out.

QuoteThe conversation with Koizumi in the courtyard is...somewhat puzzling to me.  I went over it a few times to make sure I got it properly.  Koizumi is asking Kyon not to reveal that he's John Smith to Haruhi, and Kyon says he won't live with the guilt of withholding information from her, but this is what he's already done in canon.  What about this situation has changed?  That Haruhi is now actively seeking John Smith?  If so, Kyon should recognize that and, in my opinion, say this is why he's willing to do things differently.  It need not be a totally rational decision--he clearly doesn't care about any possible consequences, and that emphasizes his state of mind.  Nevertheless, I feel there's a small point of logic that's going unsaid.

...or, maybe it's just said in the next chapter.


Koizumi's stance seems slightly impenetrable to me, too.  He says at one point that Kyon is asking Koizumi to choose between him or Haruhi, and while in the context of Kyon refusing to rekindle a relationship with Haruhi I can understand that.  In the context of Kyon keeping or not keeping the truth from her, I'm not sure I follow.

I'll try to answer these to the best of my ability. I've somewhat felt that Kyon has been avoiding thinking about what he has and has not told Haruhi. Since both times he admitted anything that could break the masquerade -- telling her the true origins of the other members and phoning her when Mikuru was kidnapped -- were both played as Cassandra Truth. I'm not honestly sure that a relationship between them could survive with him actively thinking about just what he can and cannot tell her since it clearly bothers him to be dishonest with her as such. You're correct in saying some elaboration on the whole background of them actually being in a relationship would have helped here, as I probably would have portrayed Kyon as trying his damnedest just not to think about it, but sort of knowing that it looms large in the background.

Koizumi here seems more interested in maintaining the status quo; that being a relatively happy and stable Haruhi. His stance and statements are sort of an underhanded way of Koizumi showing both a little selfishness and jealousy over the situation. He does have conflicts of interest, and as I've written him here he's not entirely disinterested in Haruhi, but of course to him pursuing her would generally be absolutely out of the question, so her relationship with Kyon is convenient for him because it renders her unavailable. If I do address all these issues with a rewrite I'll probably have Koizumi be more confused about the entire thing since he doesn't understand the circumstances -- is anyone beside Yuki actually in on the whole John Smith thing? -- and he's genuinely worried on a lot of fronts and thinks this is the simplest solution.

Quote
I'll try to answer these to the best of my ability. I've somewhat felt that Kyon has been avoiding thinking about what he has and has not told Haruhi. Since both times he admitted anything that could break the masquerade -- telling her the true origins of the other members and phoning her when Mikuru was kidnapped -- were both played as Cassandra Truth. I'm not honestly sure that a relationship between them could survive with him actively thinking about just what he can and cannot tell her since it clearly bothers him to be dishonest with her as such. You're correct in saying some elaboration on the whole background of them actually being in a relationship would have helped here, as I probably would have portrayed Kyon as trying his damnedest just not to think about it, but sort of knowing that it looms large in the background.

I think this is a very fair assessment of where Kyon is coming from.

QuoteKoizumi here seems more interested in maintaining the status quo; that being a relatively happy and stable Haruhi. His stance and statements are sort of an underhanded way of Koizumi showing both a little selfishness and jealousy over the situation. He does have conflicts of interest, and as I've written him here he's not entirely disinterested in Haruhi, but of course to him pursuing her would generally be absolutely out of the question, so her relationship with Kyon is convenient for him because it renders her unavailable. If I do address all these issues with a rewrite I'll probably have Koizumi be more confused about the entire thing since he doesn't understand the circumstances -- is anyone beside Yuki actually in on the whole John Smith thing? -- and he's genuinely worried on a lot of fronts and thinks this is the simplest solution.

Even Nagato may not know about "John Smith who will shake the world."  I guess that's one thing (and maybe I just missed it) that bothered me also:  Koizumi seems, psychically (pardon the pun), to know why Haruhi broke up with Kyon.  It could be he suspected all along that something like this could happen, but still.  I definitely like the conflict of interest vibe that does come across, the notion that Koizumi is indeed smitten with Haruhi in his own way.  I think it adds to the inherent friction between him and Kyon.  Koizumi may present himself as the voice of reason--urging Kyon not to tell Haruhi the truth for fear of the consequences, but he doesn't have high ground in terms of talking about selfish actions if he knows that keeping Kyon out of the picture gives an opening for himself.  Kyon, on the other hand, can reasonably be worried about what could happen if he told Haruhi the truth yet still want to do so, consequences be damned.  The predicament is good because both sides are reasonable depending on what the characters want more.

In my mind, Kyon is able to maintain the relationship initially because there's a disconnect to him between Haruhi's powers and her relationship with him. When she reveals that she's really interested in John Smith, I think it forces the powers aspect of her into the relationship aspect of her, making it un-ignorable and therefore Kyon can't gloss over not telling her about her power.

At this point, my only other question is:

Quote from: JonBob on January 13, 2012, 03:17:05 PM
At this point, my only other question is:

Spoiler: ShowHide

 if Asakura knew about Kyon before, wasn't she worried about a time paradox if classroom!Kyon got killed before showing up in the past?

Sorry to be late to the party; I'm starting to go through this now with a critical eye. Been pushing to get my own project done so I haven't been keeping up as well as I should.

Since it doesn't sound like your intention is a rewrite, I'll keep the review fairly high-level; I won't spend a lot of time nitpicking grammar or sentence structure here - more looking at the overall story premise and characterization.

Edit: Adding commentary for Chapter 1. I apologize in advance; since I'm not doing a line-by-line here, I'm more going through the chapter and writing down impressions as they come across. Feel free to internalize or disregard as you find appropriate or helpful, or if you'd like clarification just let me know. Since there's no specific rewrite planned, I also won't be offering alternatives in my initial comments (since they aren't really needed), although if you'd like me to suggest something for a point I'll be happy to do so.

• Kyon's voice seems a little too casual. Not a huge point, but canonically he's notable for his dry wit and tendency to ramble about unrelated topics; he feels a little bit too 'chummy' in the beginning here. Improves considerably as the chapter continues, though.
• The attitude towards Haruhi seems very appropriate for Kyon; the dichotomy is presented well (is she a menace to society or someone actually pleasant to be around? Or both?) Possibly a -little- on the harsh side if they're actually dating, but I suspect even with that in play Kyon would retain a healthy sense of caution around Haruhi.
• The dating drop is a bit too casual, I think. I understand it's a background point to the story (so you don't really want to spend a lot of focus or exposition on it), but even so it's a little too vague, especially given the shift it would have taken for either Haruhi or Kyon to come to the point of committing like that.
• The banter with Koizumi is quite good. =)
• Haruhi hiding her emotional state from the espers? If she was aware of them I could see that, but given that she has no idea the mental link to her is even there, this seems to be a bit of a stretch.
• "After all, how off can Haruhi be if she was still treating me like a lackey?" - This kind of points up the oddity of the dating situation; having that kind of shift in the relationship should affect the way they relate to each other on all levels, particularly if they're in private like this. Why -would- she treat him like a lackey if she's moved up to dating him - or more significantly, why would Kyon expect her to? It makes sense for her in context of what's coming - she's trying to put distance between them - but it should be something of a slap in the face for Kyon, I'd think.
• The usual fudging between inner monologue/actual dialogue with Kyon is something of a hindrance at the end of the chapter; it's not a hard and fast rule that he always 'speaks' that way, so having some lines more explicitly laid out as dialogue through the breakup scene could help to clarify it a bit more.

Chapter 2 impressions!

• Timing seems somewhat vague here, which could just be a research thing (on either side); my impression was that the school was locked up shortly after clubs ended, so it'd seem like Kyon wasn't a lot later than normal - thus making his parents' anger a bit weird.
• Kyon's 'screw the world' attitude at the end of the first scene is completely understandable, but it's not particularly well-telegraphed before that point, and so it jars a bit.
• Bit of a disconnect with Kyon referring to being 'the significant other of a person that some have even called God' - I can understand the need to find alternate phrasings to refer to people, but this seems like a poor choice here. He's made a point in canon never to attach any significance to that, so for him to phrase it this way makes it seem like he's more disappointed at being dumped by 'God' than by Haruhi. This might just be due to my personal view of Kyon, though, so take with a liberal dose of salt.
• To be honest, I'm not sure what the point of the scene with Taniguchi is. There's some point to having Kyon sort out his feelings before having to face Haruhi again, but once Taniguchi shows up the only thing that seems to be the result is coming up with a reinforced impression of Taniguchi as an idiot. If he was moderately perceptive here he could probably commiserate, since he was probably dumped by Haruhi himself in middle school, but otherwise there doesn't seem to be much gained from the interaction.
• "You and Suzumiya-san shared a connection that grew and matured over time into the relationship that the both of you shared" - This comes back to the point about the dating from chapter 1. The reader has no idea what kind of relationship Haruhi and Kyon actually had while they were dating, so this kind of rings hollow. Was it a relationship in name only? Doesn't really fit too well given that Kyon (and as far as we can tell, Haruhi) is rather broken up about it, but what kind of relationship -did- they have? Did Haruhi drag Kyon into plots to steal hot air balloons, or was it a more typical high-school romance, strange as that might be for her? How much did Kyon lose, and how much was Haruhi willing to give up?
• I'll echo a previous point that Koizumi knowing about the whole John Smith situation is a little fishy. I do like your voice for him otherwise, though, rings very true to the canon picture I have of him (and if I'm being honest, he's one of the people I have the hardest time writing myself.)
• The jump to threatening is jarring (as it was probably intended), but lumping Haruhi in with Kyon in the 'lack of protection' thing seems wrong. If they were going bad the Organization would certainly drop Kyon like a hot potato, but Haruhi's still the focus of the entire group's existence.

Most of what I'm seeing could probably be caught by earlier beta-ing. I have no idea how it was done when the story was originally written, but one thing that's been a massive help to me with the stories I've done so far (and while I can't speak for Brian, I'd like to think he gets the same benefit) is having someone to review ideas at the outline stage, not just after the chapter is written. A second set of eyes can help to spot actions that look odd, and the difference in perspective can be really helpful in finding alternative ways of dealing with the same situation. Catching this at the outline stage also means you can scrap and rearrange before you've spent time getting text down for the scene, which means you're likely less attached to that particular approach.

Thank you for your thoughts so far. I can say that in terms of beta-ing that I did write up a chapter first as opposed to sending an outline. I can say that Arty improved a lot, but I can see how dealing with a 'finished' product can result in some of the problems -- mostly the inconsistency -- getting through.

Chapter 3 stuff.

To note, I did see the points you noted yourself, but for me to actually comment, it's best if I do these more or less as stream-of-consciousness, so I'll likely hit some of these points again. Feel free to ignore if you're aware of them, although I'll at least try to offer some recommendations on how to avoid them (mostly characterization issues with Haruhi.)

• The fact that Haruhi is that quick to leap to distrust of Kyon is kind of disturbing, almost like she's looking for excuses to cut him off even further. Somewhat understandable if she's having a hard time coping, but actually playing up that angle from her side would tone her down slightly from 'rampaging bitch out for Kyon's head'. As it is, we see almost none of her motivation for lighting into Kyon like that, and while we're not going to see her internal motivations, it'd still be possible to give some non-verbal cues that can hint at her own conflict (and thus humanize her a bit more).
• Kyon napping through lunch seems a little weird. I can't see the students getting more than an hour for lunch at the most, so within this time period we have:
   
  • Koizumi dragging Kyon off and an esper nearly getting punched
  • Haruhi seeing this and Kyon nearly getting punched
  • Kyon falling asleep in the brigade room
  • Kyon getting awakened (from a pretty solid nap) by Tsuruya and having another conversation
  • Kyon still having half an hour left for lunch and trying to nap -again-
• Mikuru being recalled like this begs the question: "Why?" - i.e., why would her superiors choose this moment to do it, why would they do it so abruptly, what do they stand to gain from throwing a wrench in the works like this? Even if these questions are never addressed or answered directly in the story, you may find that having answers for them helps to form a more complete picture in your writing - you can use those justifications to explain further actions in the story, or build a more consistent image for Mikuru/her superiors.
• Haruhi classifying Mikuru's departure as 'unstoppable' specifically gives the impression that she -wants- to get rid of Mikuru, or that the entire setup is just a subconscious effort on Haruhi's part to actually remove Mikuru - which helps to build that image of Haruhi as selfish and manipulative again. If anything, simply leave it as something that happened that Haruhi hasn't affected one way or the other.

Quote from: Halbarad on January 15, 2012, 03:23:36 PM

• The fact that Haruhi is that quick to leap to distrust of Kyon is kind of disturbing, almost like she's looking for excuses to cut him off even further. Somewhat understandable if she's having a hard time coping, but actually playing up that angle from her side would tone her down slightly from 'rampaging bitch out for Kyon's head'. As it is, we see almost none of her motivation for lighting into Kyon like that, and while we're not going to see her internal motivations, it'd still be possible to give some non-verbal cues that can hint at her own conflict (and thus humanize her a bit more).
• Haruhi classifying Mikuru's departure as 'unstoppable' specifically gives the impression that she -wants- to get rid of Mikuru, or that the entire setup is just a subconscious effort on Haruhi's part to actually remove Mikuru - which helps to build that image of Haruhi as selfish and manipulative again. If anything, simply leave it as something that happened that Haruhi hasn't affected one way or the other.

I'm actually a little ashamed to admit that I never even considered that the latter point ended up reflecting so badly on Haruhi. I know I could write it off as a poor choice of wording, but with everything that's been pointed out so far I cannot dismiss it as such.

I'm honestly thinking at this point that my biggest flaw here might just be a lack of cohesive and consistent narrative for the sake of drama. Unfortunately I can't even promise that the next chapters will be better.

Lordy, the more I look at this the more and more I'm cringing. I'm beginning to think that a rewrite might not be a good idea, but an absolute necessity. It just seems that in order to do the premise justice it just needs a complete overhaul with some decent if not significant revisions to each chapter and the tone of the overall story.

To be honest, the most significant piece of advice I can offer is to act like an annoying five-year-old when looking over your outline and your writing: always ask 'why'. Why is Haruhi doing this, why would Mikuru's bosses take this risk, why is it in the Organization's best interest to threaten Kyon.

Like I said previously, you don't necessarily need to include the answers to all of those 'why's' in the narrative, but simply having the answers will make the entire story more cohesive - you'll find yourself in a position to include details at seemingly unrelated points that tie the story together better. Conversely, if you find yourself unable to come up with a good answer for 'why', it's a good indication that someone's carrying the idiot ball, or that you're wandering OOC or simply trying to force characters into an unrealistic situation to get the result you want - and because the situation was unrealistic, the result is equally so.

This kind of came up in a discussion on IRC earlier today; Brian and I both mentioned that we find some of the best scenes come out when you simply let the characters have their own head and take the story where it's going to go naturally. It may mean that you have to rework your outline or some story elements to allow those things to fit in the overall story, but it'll be a better story for it in the end.

Yeah, I've been ... slow to comment because Hal tends to hit most of the points I'd go for first.

Beyond that, I also know that your pre-reader of choice, erm.  She thinks 'Haruhi rewriting the world and taking away all of Kyon's friends/family, so she's the only familiar thing he knows' is 'romance.'  so....  >_>;;

The key is to try and get a balance in all things and not favor one character to the point that the other characters are just prizes/obstacles for the favored character to deal with.  Dreams of the Earthbound is an example of the author failing this spectacularly -- while we can forgive a lot for a ship....

*shrugs*

Anyway--  I owe commentary on this, so will get some out tonight.

Don't be concerned about apologizing for what's there, Grahf.  We're all interested in writing, and we all know that it's a process of learning.  Certainly there's no need to be ashamed of past work; simply recognize what could be improved in the future or, if you do decide to revise this piece, how you would go about those parts now.

And that's all we're here to do, really.

I must echo Hal's sentiment as well.  I know I've been guilty of trying to force what I see happening on characters in the past, but it is a wonderful surprise when you get into the heads of your characters and try to reason out their responses to situations and realize that the natural course is something different from what you envisioned.  I firmly believe every character has a motivation behind what they're doing.  It can be anything from a clear, rational goal to an unspecific feeling or something in-between.  On the morality scale of things, I feel that characters almost always do what they feel is just and good--their sense of morality can be defined in terms of the greater universe or be as narrow as what's good for themselves, but I feel every character had a moral code in this way.  It just might be immoral or amoral to the reader's point of view.

Anyway, some thoughts of my own on chapter three:

Quote"So then, Kyon. You better have a damn good explanation! Koizumi has been an upstanding member of this brigade, whereas you've never risen above the lowest rank!"

This seems a bit harsh considering they were in a relationship.  This scene in general feels that way.  What's going through Haruhi's mind right now?  Can she sincerely believe Kyon was trying to do something to break up the brigade?  If so, her response is to confront him aggressively--which isn't atypical for her, but the situation is atypical.  If anything's going to make Haruhi pause and ponder how best to approach the situation, I have to think this is it.  She could, for example, assume Kyon has taken things worse than she expected and try to give him an out to admit that's why he would be harsh with Koizumi... with Kyon still clueless as to why she'd saying such things.

This may be a matter of taste, though.  And Kyon taking heart that Haruhi is able to smile genuinely is good.


The scene with Tsuruya is a good breath of fresh air and hope, something to raise Kyon's spirits.  I think this is functionally good, too.

Quote"It was her 'last request'. A request I see fit to honour." With that, the pressure on my shoulder was released. Realizing that it was far too late now, I slumped back into the seat beneath me.

It seems strange for Nagato to justify following Asahina's request by resorting to honor.  It seems more fitting if she too doesn't want to see Kyon pained by running after Asahina only to watch her disappear in the blink of an eye.

On the whole, the ending of this chapter emphasizes Kyon's helplessness.  For this reason, it's passive.  I can't help but think what if it emphasized Kyon's determination to cut the knot instead?  He knows Asahina (big) must be up to something, that it involves Haruhi's breakup with him and taking her younger self back to the future.  There's something they gain by doing this, by setting these events into motion, and Kyon's only path--the only path back to Haruhi and to getting Asahina (small) back--is by finding out, whatever it takes.  Determination, despite his weariness, his sense of loss.  And it makes the ending feel more active, I think.

It's an alternative to consider, at any rate, if you do choose to revisit this piece.  Or, of course, I may find that you've put that thought process in the start of the next chapter, and all that is moot.


For the most part, there are still threads in play, so I have to reserve judgment on them until they come to fruition.

Chapter one--  Going to try and focus a bit more on technical aspects:

Quote from: GrahfAsahina-san was in her maid outfit, brewing tea as usual; Koizumi was losing yet another strange game that he brought in to specifically challenge me; and Nagato was sitting on her chair, reading the latest in what must have surely been the most impressive literature collection accumulated in the history of mankind.

Semicolons to separate list items should be reserved for list items that contain commas.  For example:

New York, New York; Wilmington, Ohio; Houston, Texas; and San Francisco, California.

The usage you have almost qualifies, but the entries don't feel consistent enough to be connected with semicolons because Koizumi's entry lacks a comma, and Nagato's entry is half of the length of the sentence.  Moreover, the preceding sentence isn't used as a beginning of the 'comma-containing entries separated by semi-colon' -- it's just a separate sentence.  This usage of punctuation may be a bit overkill; generally, the idea of using semicolons as a supercomma is rare enough that most readers will find that punctuation a bit jarring.

...though, no one else commented on it, so it may just be me....

Quote from: GrahfOne might have attributed it to the lack of our ever over-energetic leader Haruhi being nowhere to be seen, but she had told me she'd be running late so that wasn't the cause of this mood.

Double-negative--  Watch for those.  As written, 'lack' of 'being nowhere to be seen' means Haruhi's everywhere in the room.

Kyon: "Never should have let her commission the creation of her own figurine line." -_-

Hmm.  Kyon's criticisms of Haruhi feel off; 'at times dangerously socially inept' isn't very true by the later books--  And additional months beyond that, he still feels that's the right label for her?

Quote from: Grahf"It's true that you and Suzumiya-san have gotten very close over the last few months, and that things have been going quite well." Koizumi said behind that fox-like grin of his.

Technically, this second sentence is incomplete; you should link the dialog into the narration like so:

well," Koizumi

Conversely:

Quote from: GrahfHe shook his head and gave a shrug, "No, no, you needn't worry about that.

This first sentence is complete, and lacks a speech-indicator (shrug doesn't suggest speaking), so should not be linked:

shrug.  "No

Never liked, "And the entire brigade sans Haruhi tells Kyon he's screwing up; unifies to give him grief," aspects that are unintentionally evoked in this scene.  Also, Yuki feels too mechanical--  Really, too wordy for her.  The 'way too detailed time' gag isn't something she ever pulls; to try and capture her voice, think about how to relate something in as few words as possible.  Moroever, she's _not_ given to specifics when vagaries suffice--  Just look at her answer to Kyon when he asks how many interfaces there are out there in Melancholy.  (Which is, BTW, "Many.")

...suicide?  That kind of hammers home how much Kyon's friends are unsettling him without giving him useful information.  I admit, I'd forgotten this part.

Quote from: Grahf"How long have we been going out?" Is that what she wanted to ask me? Her tone was so... neutral—none of the energy, none of the passion; hell, I would have even taken anger. But even her next statement, ("Answer, or it'll be a punishment.") fell flat.

Haruhi's response dialog should not be in parenthesis.  That parenthetical can be set off with emdashes instead of parenthesis.  Actual dialog shouldn't really ever be double-nested like that outside of instances where the parenthetical dialog is something being referred to in narration that happened at a different point chronologically, or isn't said:

Quote from: exampleAlice glared at Bob, grumbling, "Why the hell can't you cancel your dinner plans with Carol, anyway?"

The answer ("Carol's mother Diane passed away last week!") would have shocked her into silence, if Bob could have found his voice; in that moment he had nothing to say, and so hung his head in shame.

Noting that it sounds from the way things are written, Haruhi and Kyon didn't realize that their relationship was failing until Nagato fell ill -- which is exactly the opposite of what I recall happening.

I have no idea why Kyon thinks something so illogical and confusing should have been obvious.

A contradiction here; Haruhi states outright she knows she's breaking Kyon's heart, while previously he says, neither of them understood what was going on until afterwards.


I have to apologize; I overestimated my ability to deal with that one aspect I complained most bitterly about.  Looking back at this with the hindsight that Haruhi knows Kyon is John Smith, I am completely unable to sympathize with her; I can only feel she's being cruel for reasons I can't understand and don't care to learn.

I know that's not the case--  My biases blind me to your intent.  Ironically, this is the same exact issue that prevented me from being able to handle the Coin -- destroying the trump card and saying that Kyon, really, was an idiot to think that Haruhi would accept it and trust him when he opened up about it. -_-

...also, keep in mind my feedback has been biased, so may require judiciously ignoring some or all of it.

QuoteI have to apologize; I overestimated my ability to deal with that one aspect I complained most bitterly about.  Looking back at this with the hindsight that Haruhi knows Kyon is John Smith, I am completely unable to sympathize with her; I can only feel she's being cruel for reasons I can't understand and don't care to learn.

Frankly if I don't have to apologize for the errors I've made I don't think you should have to apologize for having foreknowledge from having read it before. Again, I think that it really comes across that I didn't have a cohesive plan going from chapter to chapter.

Certainly I had a vague idea in some cases, but I mostly bungled around and I readily admit that I didn't even come up with the point that sours you on it until I was almost done -- admittedly I'd been wracking my brain trying to figure out something, anything that could have been material for an ending. I'd even considered leaving it open ended, but the way I had it planned would have been something that I despite: a completely ambiguous "and you decide what happens next" ending.

At this point, the question I'm going to ask is: Do you want/need myself or others to continue through the entire length of the fic? If you're planning a rewrite at this point, I suspect it's going to be one from the ground up - not just an edit of the existing story. As such, I think you've got enough feedback for the lead-off in the story, and some general advice to help you rework the plot from there; most of what would probably come out of later chapters (at least for my part) will be pointing out and reiterating some of the points I've already hit.

If you'd like to discuss further, you're also welcome to hit me up on IM or IRC (the latter is a more reliable way to reach me, as I tend to skip using IM services while I'm at home. IRC details are irc.lunarnet.org:#kitago (just set up today for this and other reasons!), you'll find me there as Yukari-sama.) The board is fine, it just tends to be slow if you want someone to bounce things like outline details around.

Wow, I was such a jerk here I had a bad dream about it.  Hooray first dream I can recall enough to record in detail. :\

Grahf, I forgot to mention this; I found the way you handled the ending to be very good.  Even though (in my opinion -- not reality, just the way I see things) I was irked by the fact that Haruhi knew, I found the ending to be well done.  The theme of Haruhi rejecting her powers because they made things 'too easy' felt in-keeping with her character, to me.  (Okay, she didn't entirely willingly reject them--  But thematically....)

I feel that the story ends more strongly than it started; like you got a real vision for the ending in the last few chapters and executed it well.

Quote from: Brian on January 16, 2012, 04:08:19 AM
Looking back at this with the hindsight that Haruhi knows Kyon is John Smith, I am completely unable to sympathize with her; I can only feel she's being cruel for reasons I can't understand and don't care to learn.

Sorry, the below is a bit confused and meant to inspire independent thought, not so much present a coherent thought on its own. (I tend to give stupid / irrelevant / generally bad advice on occasion, so please take the below as anything other than straight-up advice.)

I think it's worth pointing out that at least some of the whiplash is due to the fact that this is a Wham Reveal most of the way through the fic, requiring the reader to rethink the motivations of Haruhi's behaviour throughout the entire fic as well as the entirety of prior canon, so that any points at which Haruhi was even slightly cruel or incongruent (assuming her additional knowledge) jump out all at once and produce something on the spectrum of vague disappointment through all-out fic-dropping squick, depending on the reader.

If this kind of reveal occurred, say, in Chapter 1, the premise would still clash conceptually with some of the canon, but arguably there would be some leeway in terms of (carefully) indicating that the details and emphasis of the backstory diverge from canon enough to make it plausible -- something you don't have the chance to do at all with respect to details of the fic itself. (EDIT: Well, besides writing the fic to be self-consistent in the first place. The fic can contradict canon, but not itself.)

So, a "Haruhi knew Kyon was John Smith all along" would work better as a more obviously indicated AU, rather than a divergence. And it might also work better as an initial premise rather than a final reveal. Not sure.

_{(Aside: given the level of detail in all of the commentary, I'd suggest -- especially given that this is a fairly prominent already-published fic we're discussing -- someone edit the thread subject to add a [Spoilers] tag.)}

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 16, 2012, 01:35:41 PM_{(Aside: given the level of detail in all of the commentary, I'd suggest -- especially given that this is a fairly prominent already-published fic we're discussing -- someone edit the thread subject to add a [Spoilers] tag.)}

Done. Couldn't hurt.

QuoteAt this point, the question I'm going to ask is: Do you want/need myself or others to continue through the entire length of the fic? If you're planning a rewrite at this point, I suspect it's going to be one from the ground up - not just an edit of the existing story. As such, I think you've got enough feedback for the lead-off in the story, and some general advice to help you rework the plot from there; most of what would probably come out of later chapters (at least for my part) will be pointing out and reiterating some of the points I've already hit.

I think at this point that I'm ready to commit to a rewrite. I just have to sort some stuff out first. I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea to rewrite this before or after committing to a new project. Likewise if I do start to rewrite should I just do it in this thread or create a completely new one; I'm not sure what the correct stance would be in this situation. I do know that I'll start out with an outline of what I want to change as well as asking for some thoughts on the more drastic changes I plan to implement.

QuoteGrahf, I forgot to mention this; I found the way you handled the ending to be very good.  Even though (in my opinion -- not reality, just the way I see things) I was irked by the fact that Haruhi knew, I found the ending to be well done.  The theme of Haruhi rejecting her powers because they made things 'too easy' felt in-keeping with her character, to me.  (Okay, she didn't entirely willingly reject them--  But thematically....)

Thank you, I'm glad you thought it worked. I truly think that if Haruhi found out about her powers in canon that this might be one of the ways she reacts. She's always struck me as a person who cares as much about the journey as the destination.

Quote
I think at this point that I'm ready to commit to a rewrite. I just have to sort some stuff out first. I'm wondering whether it would be a good idea to rewrite this before or after committing to a new project. Likewise if I do start to rewrite should I just do it in this thread or create a completely new one; I'm not sure what the correct stance would be in this situation.

From my observations, it should be fine if you start a new thread and tag the subject with [Rewrite] (or [Rewrite of 'Severance of Haruhi Suzumiya'] if you decide to give the rewrite a different title.)

One of the old-timers correct me if I'm wrong.

By all means, start a new thread. If it's a rewrite it's probably best to start afresh anyway.

I have no idea when I'm going to be starting anything. Hopefully soon, but for now I guess it would be best to consider this entire thing on hold. I'll just make a new thread, so should this one be locked?

Sure. If you want it unlocked, just shoot me or another mod/admin a PM.

Pretending I got in before the lock:

Just want to suggest you leave the old version up when you do rewrite--  At least until both are done.  If there are substantial differences in the rewrite, it might be a shame to lose the old story.  And it's by no means bad, even if you do want to make it better (an admirable goal!). :)