Odds and ends

[Ebiris]

Just houserule ninjas to get sneak attack. Or go with spellthief?

Honestly I'd just rather see an NPC do something that isn't already being done by two PCs. We're all monked out.

[Anastasia]

No to spellthief, don't wanna deal with what that class entails.

Ninja looks mediocre even if I change it to sneak attack, but it's not an abyss of suck or anything.

Maybe Savant from Dragon Compendium?

[Ebiris]

Sure why not? Hell, she's going to be PrCing into that Exemplar thing you've mentioned so I guess it hardly matters at this stage if she tosses more monk levels onto the fire. Starting something new for 2 levels is pretty pointless unless it's a good dip.

[Anastasia]

Exemplar is late entry, so she has a bunch of levels to play with.

[Corwin]

How about something like an urban ranger, then? She can take the archery feat and be competent at range, just like a monk's flurry does for her in melee. It's not particularly good for her, but she's a jack of all trades so it sorta works?

[Anastasia]

What's Urban Ranger in?

[Corwin]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rangerVariantUrbanRanger

It's basically a variant that allows Sylvie to excel at what she does best (local knowledge, etc), gain some useful skills/feats tailored for her job and the spells, if she gets that far, are also thematically fitting IMO. As an extra bonus, favored enemies could, along with that scout/ranger feat, allow her to do precision damage to enemies normally exempt from it, if she ever cares for that sort of thing.

[Anastasia]

Mmm, maybe. I'll think about it and decide if she branches out or stays the course or what. Lots to consider now.

[Anastasia]

Okay, let's talk about loot. We have a lot of discussion about this and disagreement, so I want a consensus on how you guys wish to deal with loot in the future.  This entire argument wasn't fun for me and at least a few other people. If we're going to argue and not have fun, we're doing this whole gaming for fun thing way wrong.

First of all, the ki straps issue is closed, dead, done. It stands as decided.

Second of all, I'd like you guys to figure out some sort of system for loot. I don't care what it is as long as it's consistent and everyone can live with it. It doesn't need to be the same as the precedent so far if that's your choice. Consider this your instructions to post and get a loot system devised. If you guys can't agree on one, I reserve the right to decide myself. I really don't want to, but it's infinitely better than arguments.

Third of all, I know at least a few people were upset here. I'll leave it to each of you to comment on this and present what you're feeling, but I'd like you guys to talk this out. If we're going to get into a situation where there are hard feelings, it's simply not acceptable. I dunno about the rest of you, but I'm running this game to have fun. Hurt feelings and unhappiness are not a part of that. We're supposed to be adults who can communicate clearly, so let's act like it, okay?

Fourth of all, I was not happy about this entire affair, if that wasn't clear. If someone's upset about something another player does, I'd like for that person to take a breath and then talk to the other player in a mature fashion to work out their issues. We're all friends here.

[Merc]

To be honest, I really didn't think it was that big a deal you're making it out to be.

Eb just happened to do the loot this time with the more familiar method we usually use in past games, and Yuth pointed out that wasn't the system we'd been using up to now, and that really is a fair argument. And while we argued over which method to use, I didn't really get the impression anybody was as upset as you're pointing it out (except perhaps Yuth over getting shafted), just arguing over the merits of the systems.

Eb and I both were of the opinion that while we prefer the even split method, we didn't really care enough to argue and would be willing to stick with the precendent, if only until someone was willing to take a hit. If someone's willing to take a hit, we can switch, if not, we'll stick it out and try to make this work.

I'd pointed out in chat that most of the work with this method is honestly on you to not give something particularly unbalanced to us. The loot in this case was pretty balanced I think. We each took what, a 175gp hit to make sure Wayland's not 3k gp in debt? Josa took the most at about 1000gp, and really, by this system he'll almost always be the one taking the brunt of it when we get loot.

When we gave Frozen Oath to Branna, nobody really went "Oh no, we gave the expensive magic sword to the NPC, now we're down money we should have for this level! Unfair!" We just went along, and some adventures later we got the red feather sword and the blood thing, and we've had other adventures where we probably got more money than we might have if say I'd kept Frozen Oath for my own use.

I'm happy enough leaving the loot balance issues to you and just enjoying the game. I'm of the opinion you've been taking these things into consideration, and if you haven't, you certainly would now.

That said, if the consensus after all this is that we do want to switch, Eb's the only one that hasn't really gotten something that I can recall, so if loot comes up where something would go to him I don't think the hit should come from him. I'm willing to take the hit if it's something Andrea wants.

[Anastasia]

To be honest, I really didn't think it was that big a deal you're making it out to be.

When I get PMs of people being unhappy, it is. To be fair I know you aren't aware of those.

I'd pointed out in chat that most of the work with this method is honestly on you to not give something particularly unbalanced to us. The loot in this case was pretty balanced I think. We each took what, a 175gp hit to make sure Wayland's not 3k gp in debt? Josa took the most at about 1000gp, and really, by this system he'll almost always be the one taking the brunt of it when we get loot.

Josa brings up a tangential point. I'm surprised you guys have stuck with his arrangement so far. I figured by now you'd have wanted to renegotiate.

I don't have a lot to say to yours, sorry. <_<

[Yuthirin]

I've talked about this a bit with Dune, and thought I would share with you my reasoning on just why I freaked out so much.

In the ten years I've been playing this game, for all of the rules we changed, twisted, or outright ignored, one thing we could always agree on was loot. If we came across something and nobody wanted it, we would sell it. If someone did want it, it was theirs, no questions asked. This was done for the betterment of the group as a whole.

When I was told that taking the ki straps would put me some 3,560.71 marks into debt, I was thunderstruck. I don't use that word lightly; I was literally frozen for nearly half a minute in absolute shock. Not by the amount of debt, but by the level of greed I felt was shown by those who are supposed to be my friends. I was being penalized so they could still make their paychecks. The more it was discussed, the angrier I grew. It felt very much to me that the players around me had decided to set a precedent of paying for goods found in our adventures, and had decided to use me as a sacrificial lamb. The level of greed astounded me. It would be one thing if one of you had volunteered to do this, I really wouldn't be so upset, but you volunteered me for it instead. It's not your money, it's mine...and you seem to be fine with that. "We want a change, but we don't want to suffer the consequences of that change right now. We'll use this guy, he's much more convenient."

If that is to apply, let it apply to everyone.

Merc's feather was a gift, as was the blood that Aaeru drank, so the rule does not apply, but I insist that Branna receive a resurrection so that he can pay his debt for Frozen Oath, an artifact that we received from Lady Moongal as part of payment for services rendered. I asked Dune about the value of the blade, even suggested a price of 10 or 15,000, he said it cost "a lot." On further analysis, the value is anywhere from 15-22,000 gold, due to its historic nature.

If you want my opinion on how to work with loot, we should stop looking at each individual piece as a paycheck, and start looking at what the gear can do for us. I expect to buy gear from a merchant, an enchanter, a weaponsmith. Not from the pool of items that we just stole from a tomb or whathaveyou. After all, money spends very poorly when you are dead.

[Anastasia]

In the ten years I've been playing this game, for all of the rules we changed, twisted, or outright ignored, one thing we could always agree on was loot. If we came across something and nobody wanted it, we would sell it. If someone did want it, it was theirs, no questions asked. This was done for the betterment of the group as a whole.

I think it needs to be highlighted that there's a culture difference between that group and this group and we all ran afoul of that.

Merc's feather was a gift, as was the blood that Aaeru drank, so the rule does not apply, but I insist that Branna receive a resurrection so that he can pay his debt for Frozen Oath, an artifact that we received from Lady Moongal as part of payment for services rendered. I asked Dune about the value of the blade, even suggested a price of 10 or 15,000, he said it cost "a lot." On further analysis, the value is anywhere from 15-22,000 gold, due to its historic nature.

A few relevant points here. First of all, about Frozen Oath:

> I don't have the price handy offhand is what that meant. Hold on a sec and I'll dig it up.
<Wayland> ok
> Frozen Oath: Longsword+1. Frozen Oath deals 1d2 points of cold damage on each strike. In addition on any successful strike with Frozen Oath that deals damage to a target in combat, the wielder heals 1d8+1 hit points. 4,000 GP.
> To be fair it's criminally underpriced, that was the price I gave it when I started DMing in Balmuria 1 for 3.5.
<Wayland> That's it?
<Wayland> Yeesh
> I'd put it as a +2/+3 weapon.
<Wayland> At least!
> Realistically, which is 8k to...15k? 16k? I'd have to check.
> Go ahead and just paste these relevant lines into your reply if you like.
<Wayland> That's not counting the fact that it was used in the liberation of Balmuria from Devils, yes?
> Yeah. There's a lotta history with that blade. Shamal made it from some ambient magical energies back in the day, Lyselle used it and eventually retired with it when her player left the game.
<Wayland> So, it's 15-16k, plus the fact that it's a great historical artifact
<Wayland> so
> Ballpark. Lemme check how vampiric is priced in the MIC.
<Wayland> I'd put the value at 22k
<Wayland> because history can't be quantified in the book
> Vampiric is an extra 1d6 healing and it's a +2 modifier.

To be fair, I was about 99.99% sure you guys wouldn't sell it so I didn't care much about the price anyway. Second of all, a resurrection isn't a sure thing IC. It's been over a week since Branna passed, which means he's through the Well of Souls. Andrea's running into the same thing with Brent...but I digress. To quote from the world info post:

It is known that mortals are easier to revive while they are within the Well of Souls. The reasoning is not entirely clear, but speculation is that they still have some ties to the mortal world, making reaching them less difficult. Resurrection magics are changing in account of this, but these spells are still adapting.  But attempts are clear in that mortal souls within the Well of Souls do not usually appear opposed to coming back.

Once a mortal soul passes to it's afterlife, it is far harder to resurrect. Souls that have reached the Outer Planes are seldom willing to leave the Heavens, or able to freely leave the Realms Below.  Further, the souls that pass into a divine realm very rarely revive unless it is the will of their patron doing so, usually through a cleric or other agent seeing to the revival. Calls from other divinities are usually ignored. In more detail, a soul that has been absorbed into an Outer Plane  can be revived. A petitioner can be revived as well, as can outsiders with no memory of their past life. Those who transcend mortality or retain their self after death cannot be revived; they have become something different and left behind their mortal shell.

Anyway, reviving Branna isn't a sure thing by any means. A nice idea to be certain, but not one that's automatic.

[Ebiris]

Okay, I have shit to do today so I'll post later, but all this crap about being greedy and forcing Branna to pay his debt? Fuck off. Branna works for Wayland - he goes where Yuth says and does what Yuth says, so that sword belonged to you as much as if Wayland had been carrying it himself. So don't act like you haven't benefitted.

Yeah, civil tone, talk like adults, but I'm offended by that and I'm not going to pretend like I'm not. The loot system isn't worth fighting about for me, but that sort of attitude is.

[Merc]

I think it needs to be highlighted that there's a culture difference between that group and this group and we all ran afoul of that.

I actually discussed this with Dune in PM after I posted back, but one thing I noted was that I have played with both loot systems before, but by far I'm most used to the one Eb used for loot and I honestly hadn't even noticed we'd switched until you said anything.

Also, I do think you're making us out to look greedier than we really were. Almost immediately after you pointed out what we'd done, I chimed in that you were right and Eb said he was going to adjust the loot because we'd set a precedent of a different loot system. The argument that followed was specifically over the loot system, NOT Wayland and the ki straps, and again, it was mentioned that if we switched, we'd do so when someone was willing to take the hit.

Finally, again keep in mind that you didn't really chime in anything earlier when we were mentioning loot or Eb did the calculation, you just gave the accusation, and you vanished right after. I really don't think it's fair to judge us based on that if you didn't really pay attention to anything besides "Hey! They're cheating me out of my money! I'm going to tell them off and walk off in a huff!" and then ignore the discussion that followed as a consideration on our behalf.