[Haruhi] In Your Dreams

[Arakawa]

It does seem entirely plausible to me that Haruhi might skim the literature and just get into lucid dreaming intuitively similarly to how sars described her own experience, whereas Kyon might have to work really hard at it (or just get a boost of some sort from Haruhi attempting to enter his dream); anyhow, please look on what I say as a resource and ignore what isn't useful :-|

EDIT: And I'd also like to add that I'm growing to like the notion that Haruhi has the sort of focused mind that she doesn't remember any dreams, until she explicitly decides to pay attention to them. It's actually worth having the slightly weird (she remembers closed space dreams with blue giants, but no ordinary dreams) moment to get it across.

I've given my criticism a bit of second consideration, and I'm sorry if it was a bit too abrasive. (I guess that made me seem a bit dismissive of your primary focus, which the dreaming stuff is just a means to attain.)

As mentioned, I think incorporating just two or three concepts would suffice to make the fic seem true-to-life, without needing to explain things in needlessly gory detail. Much more than that, given your lack of personal experience with the topic, you're probably justified in wanting to avoid as research overkill.

In an effort to be more encouraging: here's what I enjoyed about the chapter as it stands.

Spoiler: ShowHide

• To repeat myself: the transition from 'dream trip' (actual waking-life trip) to the topic of dreaming in their conversation was a treat.
• As always, you do a very good Haruhi and I'm watching carefully to see what I can learn for myself <ω<. The cognitive gap between how Kyon sees Haruhi (in canon) and how Haruhi sees herself is bridged surprisingly well, without having to portray Haruhi as being excessively nice as compared to canon, or as being oblivious to her own somewhat domineering persona.
• The fact that both Yuki and Mikuru seem to be pushing Haruhi in the same direction. It might be unintentional, but it makes me very interested to see whether my guess that this is an intentional subplot is correct :-)
• Kyon wants to tell Haruhi about their earlier shared "dream", but also doesn't want to force the revelation on her. This makes for a very nice dynamic, and (taking a wild guess as to what lies ahead) this is probably the actual setup of the fic: Haruhi and Kyon communicate through their dreams and, since the risks and consequences of revealing too much information are much looser that way, they can try to reach a better mutual understanding than they would in a waking-life situation. However, to get the fic to that point, or whatever other point you want to get it to, requires you to either research or somehow gloss over a bunch of details relating to lucid dreaming, which makes me feel bad about trying to push you to make the technical aspect of things a bit more true-to-life. (But not too bad, I just wish I could do it without being discouragingly abrasive, or.. well... pushy.)

Anyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you. The only experience I'd be able to share that sars may not have had, is what it's like to be frustrated in attempting to attain lucid dreaming. I've had a bunch of almost-but-not-quite lucid dreams, lucid dreams that ended in silly beginner mistakes, and attempts ending in downright complete failure. Got that aspect of things extensively covered :-)

[sarsaparilla]

I can understand the reluctance to use lucid dreaming as anything beyond a plot device if one doesn't have personal experiences; however, in my opinion that takes away most of the potential of the premise, as there are direct parallels to the philosophical underpinnings of the series. At the risk of sounding too pushy, I'd like to tell about my own experiences. If they provide any inspiration for what you want to do then that's great; if not, feel free to ignore them.

There are several levels of lucidity, starting from a situation not unlike watching a movie while awake -- if specifically asked, you can confirm that "yes, this is a dream" but it doesn't matter, as you're willing to suspend your disbelief and just watch the show as long as it's interesting. On the high end there is a state where you're in full control of all your senses and faculties while inside the dream, and the experience is profound, unlike anything else you'll ever encounter. Quite literally, you're the god(dess) of a world of your own making, but it's a paradoxical existence as you're neither omnipotent nor omniscient, and the slightest mistake may shatter the illusion.

This maximal state of lucidity is exactly like a virtual world where you can do (almost) what you want. I had had dreams of various levels of lucidity all the way from infancy, but only after learning about the phenomenon I found that particular state. That discovery is probably one of the most vivid memories of my entire life. I found myself on the lawn of the sports field of the school and realized that it was a dream. I wanted to check my senses and walked over to the building where the locker rooms were. I touched the red brick wall with my hand; it was a sunny day and I could feel the warmth stored in the wall. I moved my hand over the bricks and could feel the coarseness of the surface, every tiny ridge and groove under my fingertips; I heard the rasping sound caused by my fingers and I could even smell the faint smell of mortar. All my senses told me that it was a real brick wall, its tangible, unyielding solidity was overwhelming, and at the same time I knew with absolute certainty that it didn't exist beyond my own imagination. The feeling was transcendental.

I spent the next minutes learning how to walk through the wall. It was quite tricky until I found the proper technique to subvert the subconsciousness.

Later, I did all kinds of experiments to find out what works and what doesn't. This probably depends on the person in question, but personally I have problems with complex machines -- e.g., guns rarely work as they should and in a pinch it's easier to use telekinetic 'force' to push the attacker away. Also, no matter what I do I can't control other people, or even prove to them that they don't exist (they suffer from selective obliviousness and will explain away any clearly impossible feats that I show them). Transmutation is easier than making something just appear or disappear. Books don't hold information well, don't bother writing things down. All kinds of things, too many to mention, really. But on the whole, it's very educative.

[Halbarad]

Detailed stuff about lucid dreaming

Awesome info, this will be useful in chapters to come. Probably won't stick to the limitations you've found religiously, but some of the details will be handy in developing some of the plot points I've got planned.

In a broader response to the C&C in general at this point, my main objective in writing a story is not to explore a philosophical or psychological principle; the main thing I'm trying to do is tell a story that I think (hope) (pray) will be interesting for folks to read, showing characters they like doing things that they might not have thought about before.

If I can explore deeper concepts in the process, then great; however, the narrative is what comes first. If a more thorough examination of principles or concepts (such as lucid dreaming, in this case) will detract from (or add nothing to) the story, I'm not going to spend that much time on it. It's certainly not my intention to mangle the concept, and I'll stick to rendering it accurately as far as the narrative will allow, but when it comes down to accuracy vs. keeping the story interesting, I'll stick to the latter - possibly with an author's note in appropriate areas to verify that no, lucid dreaming doesn't actually work this way, if the divergence is great enough.

Keep in mind, too, that this is the first chapter of a story that will likely be as long as (or longer than) Under Review. Almost everything in this first chapter is simply laying groundwork for things to come; if there are things missing it may be by design, as there's a lot more of the story to tell yet - it certainly doesn't end here. When offering C&C, remember to judge it on that basis.

Anyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you.

Generally, I try not to call out specific comments, but this one I can't let pass. You spend a good deal of time in your post saying that you're trying to avoid being pushy and abrasive, Arakawa, and then in the same sentence here you do exactly that - the implication here is that I need to listen to what you had to say to do things 'realistically'. I think the fic is quite capable of standing up as a realistic story without sticking to straight scientific accuracy, especially given the presence of a completely unrealistic reality warper in it, and I rather resent the implication that it won't be unless I'm following your recommendations.

I'm not just calling this out to rail on you; by your own admission, you acknowledge that you have a tendency to come across as rude and abrasive at times. By that token, if this is an area you intend to improve, it's rather difficult to do so if you don't know what it is that's being viewed that way. Take this as my C&C of that aspect of your feedback.

[Arakawa]

Anyhow, I've said what I felt needed saying. Right now I've finished with being hard on you, Hal; at this point you can either ignore my previous loud opinion on the lucid dreaming question and figure the best way to gloss over the subject, or you can try to use the knowledge other people on this forum have to try to craft a more realistic fic, up to you.

Generally, I try not to call out specific comments, but this one I can't let pass. You spend a good deal of time in your post saying that you're trying to avoid being pushy and abrasive, Arakawa, and then in the same sentence here you do exactly that - the implication here is that I need to listen to what you had to say to do things 'realistically'.

*squints at own writing*

In that specific sentence? Nuts, I'm worse than I thought.

I think the fic is quite capable of standing up as a realistic story without sticking to straight scientific accuracy, especially given the presence of a completely unrealistic reality warper in it, and I rather resent the implication that it won't be unless I'm following your recommendations.

I'm not just calling this out to rail on you; by your own admission, you acknowledge that you have a tendency to come across as rude and abrasive at times. By that token, if this is an area you intend to improve, it's rather difficult to do so if you don't know what it is that's being viewed that way. Take this as my C&C of that aspect of your feedback.

Okay, to clarify: I personally thought there was an issue with the chapter. Not knowing how other people see the same issue, and wanting to be a bit more specific with my feedback, I just tried to explain what sorts of things would alter my own personal response to it. Phrasing it in such absolute terms seems to have saved some grammar, but caused me to completely fail the 'coming across as respectful' issue.

(silly excuses you may not care about)

Spoiler: ShowHide

My fundamental problem seems to be that I don't particularly mind whether the feedback I receive is supportive, or condescending, or hypocritical, or indifferent -- that seems to me secondary to the question of whether or not it's making a valid point. But that's an awful basis for interacting with other people :-( -- the thing is, since I can't gauge the acceptability of what I'm writing based on my own emotional response to similar feedback, I have to assess it intellectually for these faux pas.

So, I'd like to thank you for... well, tolerating my presence while I try to work through this problem, for one thing; and pointing out that I'm still way off the mark, for another. And I want to apologize since this interaction has probably been for you a distraction from the main purpose of the fic :-|

[Muphrid]

"Well, that's a bit better, then," Sakanaka says, smiling a bit as we head towards the stairwell leading off the roof. "If that's the way it is, I could see it being fun, if you're looking forward to getting to make the world the way you want it to be. That's the fun part of dreams, at least to me - getting to see all the totally impossible things that can't happen in the real world.

"Oh- not that they can't happen at all!" She catches herself, blushing a little. "I know that's the kind of thing you're looking for in your club, I just meant-"

Since it's Sakanaka still speaking, I'm not sure a paragraph break is warranted--or, for more clarity, end the first paragraph during her dialogue, so it can be clear she's still speaking by the lack of a trailing quotation mark?

I just snort in reply, putting my head down on my desk as the first teacher for the afternoon comes in. At least I've got the assignment pattern worked out for now, so maybe I can get some 'dreaming time' in before the Brigade meeting after school.

Pattern meaning when or which days she's likely to get an assignment?

"All right, it's time to get serious about finding something unusual!" I slam my hand down on my desk, startling the rest of the Brigade - who, as usual, are reverting to their everyday, boring routine without me pushing them. Kyon and Koizumi just finished setting up the Othello board, Yuki is messing around with one of the club's laptops, and Mikuru is just starting to serve the tea when I make my announcement.

I find the break here and the start of this scene to be a bit sudden.  There is, in my mind, a lack of explanation of Haruhi's thought process.  Has she had this planned for some time?  Is it spurred by her conversation with Sakanaka?

The next day after class, I end up hauling Kyon behind me to the club room. He's got an assignment, after all, and I'm not letting him slack off on this one! Of course, we end up making it there before anyone else does and we have to wait anyway, but better that than having to deal with excuses if he was late.

Repetition of "end up" here.

I scowl at that - Kyoto's just so normal - but he does have a point about the money, I don't have a lot saved up either. "How lame," I grouse. "Still, though, if that's all you can afford, I suppose it can't be helped. We can check out the old ruins for ghosts or youkai, I guess." That does remind me of a weekend trip I'd thought of myself, though. "If we're just doing day trips, though, we could scout out Himeji Castle too - there's a pretty famous ghost story associated with it."

Perhaps "money;" instead of comma?

The others don't really show any unexpected reactions to the suggestion.  Koizumi seems pleased enough with it (although he generally seems to be okay with most things; there isn't much I've seen that will get him upset.) Yuki just glances up from her book to look at Kyon for a moment, and Mikuru has that somewhat lost look she almost always has. Kyon himself still seems a bit dissatisfied, though - what's the story there, it's not like I said it was the worst idea in the world or something!

While I agree with Haruhi that these reactions aren't particularly unusual, Asahina "always" looking lost gives the idea that Haruhi thinks she's perpetually overwhelmed.  Also, perhaps "there?" and start a new sentence with "it's"?  Otherwise the question seems to get lost.

Of course, this is Kyon we're talking about. "A dream trip, huh?" While I'll privately admit to being impressed, there's no <i>way</i> I'm telling him that - he'd just take it as an excuse to get even more complacent, and he's lazy enough as it is. Then I remember talking with Sakanaka at lunch, and I know just how to spin this. "Dreams are supposed to be full of wild and impossible things, and that's the best you can come up with?"

This is lunch the day before that she had that conversation, yeah?


The way Haruhi's thought processes digress here--turning "dream" from a figurative sense into something more literal--feels a bit off, like it's too much of a leap.  It's set up, but I have a hard time convincing myself she would think that way naturally.  As a purposeful diversion, which I think is what you were going for, I think it can work.  If so, I think that angle could stand to be played up a little more.

Mikuru starts a bit at the question, looking embarrassed for some reason - what, it's not <i>that</i> strange a question! She fumbles with the skirt of her uniform for a minute before replying, not meeting anyone's eyes. "It... I... um... it's something I learned about before I, um, came to Kitago."

This is interesting.  While Asahina volunteering that information comes as a surprise, having it connect with her background makes a lot of sense.  I like this notion quite a bit.

Kyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I don't really pay her too much attention as I get the computer shut down, but I do notice that she lingers for a minute before she leaves. Normally I wouldn't think anything of it, except that when I collect my own bag, I notice that there's a book in my chair - about lucid dreaming, of all things! Maybe Yuki noticed what I was reading and had a book she wanted to offer me?

This feels a bit tell-y instead of show-y.  I hope not to be too obnoxious at this juncture, but let me elaborate with a possible way it could be rewritten:

Kyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki.  I press the power button on the tower, and the monitor flickers off, but as I rise from my chair, I look out the doorway and spot the tip of an indoor shoe.  When I peer around to get a better angle, the owner of the shoe moves, her footfalls totally silent.  Only Yuki walks that quietly, but why would she wait for me to lock up?

I collect my bag, and that's when I find it:  a blue paperback with a surreal drawing of a human head in profile on the cover.  "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming," reads the title.  Yuki must've noticed I was interested.  Strange that she'd have something so topical on hand, though.

There are several things I'm trying to impart with that, which you can feel free to accept or discard as you feel appropriate, of course.  I tend to put a heavy emphasis on sensory information--Haruhi doesn't just turn the computer off, she presses the power button and the monitor flickers as a result.  Nagato doesn't just wait at the doorway, but Haruhi knows she's there from the tip of her shoe.  Specificity, I feel, is important, too:  don't just say "a book" but give it a name, a title, authors, and a curious cover graphic. I found this one just googling "lucid dreaming books" and found it on Amazon.

I don't have much opportunity for reading it that night, though; homework assignments for the vacation week ahead are starting to get issued, and since I don't want to waste any of my time off doing it, that means taking more time than usual to finish it up at home. I don't bother to take the book out of my bag before school the next day, though; if nothing else, I might be able to start in on it at lunchtime.

Is it equivalent to stay just "start it" instead of "start in on it"?

After class ends, I head off to the club room like I normally do; there's nothing pressing today, so I don't bother to wait up for Kyon. Yuki's the only one in the room - unsurprisingly - and so I go through my usual routine while I wait for the others to arrive: checking the club's email address and website to see how many visitors we've had, scanning through a few 'news of the weird' websites to see if anything interesting has happened nearby that's worth checking out. Nothing on any front today, though, but that's not really that big a deal - this is mostly just to kill time while the slowpokes take their time getting here.

And, similarly, "head to" instead of "head off to"?

"Better you than me," I aver. "Anyway, since it looks like things aren't going to go anywhere today, and Koizumi called out anyway, club is dismissed. Mikuru-chan, Yuki, keep looking into stuff we can do nearby - Kyon may not be coming along, but that doesn't mean we're canceling our Golden Week plans!"

Despite the broad range of philosophy and science that Tanigawa likes to invoke, I'm not sure if I can really buy Haruhi using the word "aver" if she were speaking English.

I toss around a couple of other ideas as I finish the trip home, but can't come up with anything solid. Since the Brigade meeting broke up early I'm home quite a bit earlier than usual, and to top that off Mom texted me to let me know she'd be working late tonight, too, so I've got an empty house to keep me company for most of the night - not something I particularly enjoy all that much.

Question:  I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail.  Is that not the case?


General remark:  Haruhi's decision to give Kyon this assignment is well thought out.  I think more passages like that would give the story a better feel and pacing.

I'm feeling impatient the next day, so I actually head back to the classroom after picking up my lunch to talk to Kyon. Unsurprisingly, he's occupied when I get back to the room - as usual, Kunikida and that halfwit Taniguchi. The fifteen minute wonder catches sight of me coming back in right away, though, so by the time I make it back to my desk they've already fled to their own side of the classroom. Honestly, I don't even know why I agreed to go out with him in middle school - it's not like I didn't know exactly how it was going to turn out.

"actually" can be cut.  "head back" and "get back" feel repetitious.  You can replace the latter with "get there" and lose no meaning.

"What's with that look?" I challenge him. "Let me guess, it's something perverted that you don't want to tell me." I don't really think that's it, though - he doesn't look even slightly embarrassed, and if it really was something weird like that I imagine he'd be red in the face or fidgety.

Mind, this is a guy who told Haruhi he had to leave because he didn't want to misplace a borrowed porn magazine.

"You were..." Kyon sighs. "You were excited about the blue things clearing everything away to make way for something new and better, and I was afraid that we'd end up losing everything we already had if that happened."

Okay, Kyon, I look forward to hearing why you choose to say this.  You didn't think she forgot, did you?


At any rate, my general feeling throughout was that, while the plot was reasonable to follow, the flow of events feels a bit fast.  That's not a problem with the plot so much as how it's depicted.  With a touch more narrative glue--like the scene mentioned above where Haruhi decides on Kyon's assignment or at the end where she settles on trying to share Kyon's dreams--I think this would be about perfect.  As far as my pacing concerns, some of that may be inevitable considering that several days are covered here, so perhaps that shouldn't be too concerning, either.

Regarding some other comments:  I did feel that the interest Haruhi expressed in lucid dreaming was merely distant curiosity until Kyon told her about the end of Melancholy, so the ramp up in her interest at that point seemed appropriate.  That said, a passing mention that she wakes up remembering nothing of what happened while she slept may not be unjustified, either--she might, at this point, not quite get what all the fuss is about.

[Arakawa]

Question:  I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail.  Is that not the case?

Japanese phones use something based on email, with a few proprietary additions such as emoji. (What I don't remember is to what extent the service interoperates with regular email -- but I think it does so reasonably well.) Unrelated: I remember seeing brochures for Japanese phones which specifically have screenshots demonstrating how many characters of email fit on the screen at various font size settings... it seems to be treated as a crucial feature, perhaps even more so than texting on Western phones.

Hm, personally I often see fanfiction writers use 'texting' as a synonym for 'email' with respect to Japanese cell phones. It all amounts to the same thing anyways - sending bits of text back and forth from cell phone to cell phone. Since the primary difference these days is in technological implementation on the back end, (well, and probably pricing structure,) I don't really find myself stumbling over either usage. As far as Americanisms in fanfiction go, this one strikes me as entirely harmless...

I'm sort of conflicted over whether to second Murphid's suggestion to give the title of some specific book. That seems to open a whole can of worms as to which book is most likely to be floating around in Japanese translation, for one thing, and there's a risk that it would strengthen any misplaced expectations people have that the fic is going to present a more 'realistic' picture of lucid dreaming. (EDIT: i.e. not naming the book is a valid choice for what Hal wants to be doing and *annoyed at myself* should have probably been a giveaway for me not to harp on the issue so much; conversely, naming some specific book could easily be taken to imply that the mechanics of lucid dreaming in the fic are going to be based off that book.)

[Muphrid]

Yeah, as far as texting goes, I don't have a big problem with it, but it was something I noticed because I'd made a conscious decision to avoid it out of caution.

The title thing may have been a bit too specific on my part.  To me, just the visual description of the cover is as important, if not more.  What kind of book is it?  Hardback?  Paperback?  New?  Old and worn on the corners?  Is it thick or thin?  Does it have unique art on the cover?  Maybe that's all veering into personal preference.  I mean, it's not like I can't imagine a typical book in Haruhi's hands as she examines it, but the details can't hurt to build an image of it--to make it feel real even when it isn't.

[Brian]

Yeah, as far as texting goes, I don't have a big problem with it, but it was something I noticed because I'd made a conscious decision to avoid it out of caution.

Oh?  You can get around that by simply calling it a 'message'.  If you can't do the research, be vague. ;)

Edit: Hmm, that came across a bit dismissively. :x

Sometimes it's hard to find good research information on what's ultimately a triviality.  If the important element is that a text message or e-mail gets through, being vague about which is fine (unless that detail happens to be critical to your plot).

[Halbarad]

Since it's Sakanaka still speaking, I'm not sure a paragraph break is warranted--or, for more clarity, end the first paragraph during her dialogue, so it can be clear she's still speaking by the lack of a trailing quotation mark?

That's... actually what happens there? Look again at the section you quoted.

Pattern meaning when or which days she's likely to get an assignment?

...

I find the break here and the start of this scene to be a bit sudden.  There is, in my mind, a lack of explanation of Haruhi's thought process.  Has she had this planned for some time?  Is it spurred by her conversation with Sakanaka?

Added a paragraph at the end of the classroom scene to address both points.

Or at least that was the plan - which failed miserably, thanks to Kyon... although I should probably be thankful to him for that. While I had the regular assignments right, what I forgot to take into account was that Golden Week is coming up next week, and the teachers are handing out extra homework to be done over the holiday. Which reminds me, I haven't made any plans for the time off yet myself...

Repetition of "end up" here.

Changed the first instance around to "make sure to haul Kyon with me".

While I agree with Haruhi that these reactions aren't particularly unusual, Asahina "always" looking lost gives the idea that Haruhi thinks she's perpetually overwhelmed.  Also, perhaps "there?" and start a new sentence with "it's"?  Otherwise the question seems to get lost.

That actually -is- Haruhi's perception of Mikuru at this point; someone always waiting for the other shoe to drop, or waiting to see what Haruhi is going to do to her next. Haruhi really hasn't had much occasion to see Mikuru acting in any other way, although I'll add in 'when something's happening' since she likely wouldn't be so apprehensive on a normal, quiet day.

Sentence break also noted and added.

This is lunch the day before that she had that conversation, yeah?

Yes.

The way Haruhi's thought processes digress here--turning "dream" from a figurative sense into something more literal--feels a bit off, like it's too much of a leap.  It's set up, but I have a hard time convincing myself she would think that way naturally.  As a purposeful diversion, which I think is what you were going for, I think it can work.  If so, I think that angle could stand to be played up a little more.

I don't want to come down on it as lame, since it actually isn't, but I need something to use to spin my response... then I remember talking with Sakanaka at lunch yesterday, and I know just what to do.

This feels a bit tell-y instead of show-y.  I hope not to be too obnoxious at this juncture, but let me elaborate with a possible way it could be rewritten:

Kyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki.  I press the power button on the tower, and the monitor flickers off, but as I rise from my chair, I look out the doorway and spot the tip of an indoor shoe.  When I peer around to get a better angle, the owner of the shoe moves, her footfalls totally silent.  Only Yuki walks that quietly, but why would she wait for me to lock up?

I collect my bag, and that's when I find it:  a blue paperback with a surreal drawing of a human head in profile on the cover.  "Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming," reads the title.  Yuki must've noticed I was interested.  Strange that she'd have something so topical on hand, though.

There are several things I'm trying to impart with that, which you can feel free to accept or discard as you feel appropriate, of course.  I tend to put a heavy emphasis on sensory information--Haruhi doesn't just turn the computer off, she presses the power button and the monitor flickers as a result.  Nagato doesn't just wait at the doorway, but Haruhi knows she's there from the tip of her shoe.  Specificity, I feel, is important, too:  don't just say "a book" but give it a name, a title, authors, and a curious cover graphic. I found this one just googling "lucid dreaming books" and found it on Amazon.

Several points to address here, and I'll probably wander all over the place so bear with me. Starting at the last point, I specifically want to avoid providing any book titles; while I'm not so full of myself as to think that people are going to read this and take what it says as a suggestion to run out and buy a book, I've also had it drilled into my head that you never recommend anything by a third party without a damn good reason, either. (I write tech support emails for a living.)

As far as expanding the description goes, I've done some of that, but part of it too is that Haruhi is a very direct person in my view - she's not going to spend a ton of time describing her observations, she's going to cut straight to the chase and say what she thinks happened; what you have there as a suggestion for the first paragraph is more of a Kyon-like approach. She's not really like Kyon at all in that regard; he might futz around the point and describe what he's seeing obliquely to hint at what's going on, but in all honesty I'd see her finding that kind of description to be a waste of time and energy.

Kyon nods at that, and he heads out ahead of Yuki. I don't really pay her too much attention as I get the computer shut down, but I do notice that she lingers next to the table for a minute before she leaves, while I'm waiting for the computer to finish powering off. Normally I wouldn't think anything of it, except that when I collect my own bag, I notice that there's a book on the end of the table - kind of an aqua green color, about the size of a textbook; it doesn't look like the novels that Yuki usually reads, or that are all over the shelves in here. It's a little odd, since Yuki almost never leaves her books laying around, but when I turn it over, I notice that it seems to be about lucid dreaming, of all things! Maybe she noticed what I was reading and had a book she wanted to offer me?

Is it equivalent to stay just "start it" instead of "start in on it"?

And, similarly, "head to" instead of "head off to"?

Both are idioms; there's no functional difference between them, and I prefer to keep Haruhi's narrative a bit more colloquial.

Despite the broad range of philosophy and science that Tanigawa likes to invoke, I'm not sure if I can really buy Haruhi using the word "aver" if she were speaking English.

A point to disagree on, I suppose. 'aver' is probably best defined as 'crossword puzzle bait' in English, and given Haruhi's propensity for finding interesting ways of doing things, I could easily see her using crosswords as a vocabulary expander. I don't see her being a fanatic over them or anything, but I suspect as an English speaker she'd tear through the NY Times Sunday crossword every now and then to keep herself sharp.

Question:  I got the impression that in Japan, people don't send texts per se but their phones are linked to e-mail accounts of some kind, and hence they refer to such messages as mail.  Is that not the case?

This, and to a slightly lesser extent the previous point, both fall under the heading of 'localization' to me. While the term might not be strictly accurate to Japanese speakers, those aren't the primary audience here, either. Using 'mail' would open up room for confusion, since it wouldn't be readily apparent to non-informed English speakers what it was referring to, but 'texting' refers to the exact same practice and leaves far less of an opportunity for misunderstanding.

Mind, this is a guy who told Haruhi he had to leave because he didn't want to misplace a borrowed porn magazine.

There's a slight difference between admitting to looking at an ero manga (which in Japan is honestly not that big a deal) and admitting to a person that you've had erotic dreams about them specifically.

At any rate, my general feeling throughout was that, while the plot was reasonable to follow, the flow of events feels a bit fast.  That's not a problem with the plot so much as how it's depicted.  With a touch more narrative glue--like the scene mentioned above where Haruhi decides on Kyon's assignment or at the end where she settles on trying to share Kyon's dreams--I think this would be about perfect.  As far as my pacing concerns, some of that may be inevitable considering that several days are covered here, so perhaps that shouldn't be too concerning, either.

That's largely the case here; as the first chapter, the main focus is on setting up what the narrative will cover more as the story unfolds. The pacing is a bit quick, admittedly, but I also don't want to spend a huge amount of time going over events and setup that will end up being largely irrelevant to the story as a whole.

Regarding some other comments:  I did feel that the interest Haruhi expressed in lucid dreaming was merely distant curiosity until Kyon told her about the end of Melancholy, so the ramp up in her interest at that point seemed appropriate.  That said, a passing mention that she wakes up remembering nothing of what happened while she slept may not be unjustified, either--she might, at this point, not quite get what all the fuss is about.

In response to this and the other points on the same topic, this is what I'm going with. While she's aware of the existence of lucid dreaming and some of the basic concepts behind it (more or less what you could pick up in an hour or two of browsing online), she's also aware at this point that she has what amounts to an instruction manual on how to do it. Couple that with the fact that she doesn't have more than a mild interest in it (until Kyon's mention of the Melancholy dream) and she's basically just content to wait until she's had a chance to read about how it actually works and how to do it before she tries to force the issue.

[Brian]

Then suddenly:

A surprise chapter two!

[Halbarad]

Oh yeah, I think I might have forgotten to mention. Brian's going to be co-authoring this one with me. =) I'll be doing chapters from Haruhi's perspective, while he handles Kyon's side of things.

[Arakawa]

Hm, well that was an interesting surprise... prior to actual C&C, I guess I'll share one particular thought on the story as a whole.

The contrast between the level of detail on Brian's and Hal's chapters made me rethink Hal's chapter a bit. (In Brian's chapter Kyon seemed to be paying more or less the amount of attention to what he was doing that I'd expect a normal person trying this stuff to pay. This makes it a bit more clear that what Hal was trying to do was deliberate.)

To me, Haruhi's approach (when placed next to Kyon's) seemed to be showing some of the same traits that made her such an atrocious film director; that is, her interest in the field doesn't actually lead her to pay much attention to some crucial aspects of it, since she assumes she can just jump in and pick up the necessary details at the last minute (and in the case of this fic she certainly can). This is how I justify to myself the fact that, after doing quite a bit of reading on the topic of lucid dreaming, she doesn't bother to bring up a single detail of what she's read in her narration. Of course, since with a reality warper the laws of physics are far more malleable than the laws of good storytelling, Haruhi is of course a much better lucid dreamer than she is a film director.

So the lack of detail makes perfect sense to me now, but since I'm not sure whether mine is a charitable interpretation or a treasonous one, or if it's at all possible to either support or disprove it within the context of Haruhi-PoV... it just shows how much I was jumping the gun with my comments, I guess?

It does occur to me that Hal justifies his style in large part by saying that Haruhi only gets serious about the dream project about six-sevenths of the way through the chapter (when she considers the possibility of a shared dream with Kyon). Entirely reasonable, but then this line:

I shake my head, stuffing it in my bag before I head out and lock up the club room. However it got there, I can certainly put it to good use - after what I was reading about online, I want to try it myself now!

... really worked against that, and my resulting assumption of Haruhi's enthusiasm drove a large portion of my original feedback insisting that she pay more attention to the actual details of the subject. Would it be an unreasonably drastic change to weaken that one line a little by changing the "want to try it now" to something more in the ballpark of "wouldn't mind trying it myself"?

It seems given all the commentary on this thread that it's just meant to express that Haruhi thinks it's a cool idea, but as the line stands it's extremely tempting to take Haruhi at face value and think (prematurely) that she literally wants to try lucid dreaming herself now, by that point in the chapter, when it's actually something she has yet to decide.

(Also, the paragraph seems to say she stuffs her head in the bag. I... knew there was something off about all the 'it's when I C&Ced it, even *after* my attempt to edit down the 'it' quotient (see my attachment). How did I miss that going through the first time around? I guess I see it now because I ripped it out of context into a quote box...

Okay, no big deal. Just something I missed the first time 'round.)

That aside, Hal was doing something extremely valid and I definitely overreacted. (As I said to Brian: I seem to have a general problem with giving story feedback prematurely.) As I noted, I really like the particular implication created by Hal's approach that Haruhi doesn't bother remembering her dreams when she doesn't have any reason to, but once she's consciously focusing on the matter, she has absolutely no trouble doing it :-)

[Brian]

gonna admit, kinda sad that no one's commented on chapter two

Maybe no one noticed it there because I thought it would be 'funny' and 'clever' to not mention I was co-authoring until this chapter?  Anyway....

Fixed some minor continuity errors and a whole host of repetition issues.  Pathetic bump, somewhat hoping people just didn't notice, and that's why the lack of comments. :\

[Halbarad]

Corrections directly on the HTML, as usual.

[Brian]

Corrections directly on the HTML, as usual.

Yaay!  Thanks, Hal. :)

Spoiler: ShowHide

As always, unless otherwise commented, I used your suggestions.

Repetition of cocoon here.

Second changed to 'back into my bedding'.

>> I'm not sure of the connection between these two paragraphs. Is it because it's not so cold, so the loss of blankets isn't so big a deal?

Yes, to both.

Will expand on that to clarify.

Then, naturally, my little sister uses the less lethal blanket-strip-away maneuver.  I get up before she can follow it with a more martial technique, and she giggles and runs away, leaving me in the cool morning air.  At least it's not as frigid as it was just a few short months ago.

Yuki never answers this question, although whether that's intentional or not I'm not sure (or if Kyon's too lost in thought to pay attention to it.)

Intentional, yeah.  Hm, actually -- I don't like the implication Kyon's not paying attention to her after his resolve to try and treat her better; I'll revise that.

Well....  "Did you have anything planned for your day off, before the Brigade's trips start?" I prompt.

     "Not really," is her quiet response.

     "Hmm."  I can't really like the thought of not participating, somehow.  It's strange, but I think I've been involved in more activities with that group than Haruhi has.  Given that, why should it bother me that I'm the one excluded this time?

Once we make it to my Aunt Mion's house, Uncle Keiichi escorts us inside, my little sister waking up enough to fumble her way into a futon in one of the guest bedrooms.

Ah--  'My aunt' is not a proper noun, actually, so the title is not capitalized.  But then it looks odd.  Dropping the 'my' to use your correction and make it fit in better.

Repetition of 'vantage' here. Maybe replace the first one with view?

Good call.

Last sentence here is a bit awkward - not sure what it's trying to say.

Euch.  Yeah; okay.  I was trying to describe the dam for later -- will break this out a bit and expand on it, then:

The cousins, of course, like to pretend it's much more severe, and we're a group of bold adventurers forging into the unknown depths of a primeval forest.  I can't help but think that Haruhi might be pleased by that thought.

     For an 'untouched wilderness', there's one significant structure, which the children quickly dub 'the evil fortress'.  The unattended dam doesn't quite loom, but is still several meters tall, aged concrete with rust stains marring its surface regularly.  Perhaps implying a gate or other entrance, there's an even rustier metal grate, centered like gritted teeth at the bottom, frothing with the river's outflow.

     Once the blankets and bentos are all set out, there's no real free time for me to relax.  Observing my 'troops', I need to keep an eye on Shutaro especially -- if he toddles too close to the river, that could be trouble.  Certainly, I don't want any of the cousins trying to break into the 'fortress' through that grate in the river.

Suggestion: maybe "on either side of an uncomfortable-looking Naota,"

Good call -- went with that. :)

This is, after all, the natural place to build the dam, but that cuts the expedition short. -> I'd replace 'that' with 'the weather', since it's a bit unclear here.

Okay, and then changed 'the expedition' to 'our expedition' to try and avoid repetition there.

"She pouts, putting her hands on my arm and trying to tug me away from the small chair she can't squeeze in next to me in." - I understand what you're saying here, but "she can't squeeze in next to me in" is really odd-looking. Maybe "small chair in which she's unable to squeeze in next to me"?

When in doubt, restate:

She pouts, putting her hands on my arm and trying to tug me away from my seat.  I had intentionally chosen a chair small enough that she couldn't squeeze in next to me.

I really like the verbal sound effects for Rika; merely a suggestion, but if you want to use 'real' onomatopoeia, try the listing at http://www.baka-tsuki.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2485

Only a suggestion, though; there's no reason Rika wouldn't just make up her own as she goes, either.

Ah, a quick check shows that the sound-effect related to Kyon's name is on that list -- or close enough for her to take some liberties.  I'll go with it; the rain becomes 'saaa, saaa', and chopping will be 'choki, choki'.  Later, if the rain increases, it'll totally be 'zaaa, zaaa', ni-pah~!

May just be a dumb moment on my part, but has Nagato ever tried to change the weather before?

She hasn't.  Reference to the baseball game; it's not that she failed, it's that there were potential side-effects.  I can expand on this a bit and make it clearer:

I expect that if Nagato can't do it without side-effects, Hinamizawa's kami aren't about to change the weather, either.  Despite that, I show Shutaro how to stuff and bundle the cloth, then help him tie the string off on his own 'shine shine monk'.

And a bonus Higurashi reference!

Hanyuu: Hauuuu~!

Reptition of 'own' between these two lines. Maybe more specific for the second - "helping Eiko tie a string on her teruterubouzu"?

It's worse than you thought--  Repetition on four lines.  Revised, greatly:

Despite that, I show Shutaro how to stuff and bundle the cloth, then help him tie the string off on his little 'shine shine monk'.

     "Why's it called that?" he asks, while the other cousins labor away at their own.

     "You remember, right, Kyon-kun?" Aunt Rika prompts, helping Eiko with her project.

SFX here too, just to point it out if you're making changes.

Will do.  I should also consistently offset her SFX with an em-dash, to make them (incomphrehensible, fragmentary) sentences.

I'd combine the previous two paragraphs myself.

Then I'll do that.

I wouldn't hyphenate the last sentence here, just bridge it - "; meanwhile, my sister" etc.

Done.

He was reading the book in the dream?

I'll rework this; he was dreaming about reading the book.  He'll realize/suspect he's dreaming because the words keep shifting around.

I'd suggest 'unbuttoned long black coat'.

Oh, wow, implications, otherwise.  O_O  CHANG'D.

Might be worth pointing out here that Haruhi doesn't change out of the maid uniform, although if you want to skip it I can point it up in the next chapter.

I revised to add a passing mention, but I think you'll want to have it come up in Haruhi's PoV anyway.

Combine previous two paragraphs here also.

Done.

Alright!  Thanks a ton for the feedback, Hal.

So ... when's the next chapter gonna be out, anyway? ;)