[Ranma 1/2] A Man Among Women

[DB]

And here we come to the second of my 'misrepresented fics'.  (DNR/DNU is the first since it's not a continuation fic') by Vince Seifert. It's 'A Man Among Women' at

http://www.csus.edu/indiv/s/seifertv/toth/amaw.htm

Within is a tale which is supposedly a realistic (ha!) 'Ranma Gets All the Girls' fic. It's neither.  Vince fails completely and utterly in the one thing the fic was supposed to accomplish (it does succeed at its unstated goal, though), which seemed to go over the head of, oh, everyone that read it.

It's a number of years after the manga, and it turns out Ranma is sleeping with just about anything female. I'm pretty sure the water ladle lady is in there somewhere. And that girl in the background of vol 12, panal 8. I think Genma does keep Ranma from trying to reaquaint himself with Nodoka's womb, but that's all about it. Technically Ranma's married to Kasumi, but really, what does that mean except he's *supposed* to sleep with her? He has a side deal with Shampoo, and Ukyou's knocking boots with them as well. At some point he had a tryst with Kiima He's knocked up several of them as well. Litters of little Ranma's dotting across the landscape.

Vince works up some contrivance for each, poorly explained and not realistic in the slightest. Then again, it doesn't really matter because none of the girls really matter.  Vince... err, Ranma, makes that clear because he's happily banging Akane, whose happily banging him right back.  In fact,  she's the only one he really likes banging. He even tells her outright that if she wants, he'll ditch everyone for her, since the only reason they didn't get together was because they were tempermental and made some stupid mistakes which both eternally regret.

Okay, right then and there we have the *real* motive behind the fic, and what this fic really is  This is not a 'Ranma Gets All the Girls Fic'. He has no more interest in them then he did in the canon series, even after fathering a number of children with them. This is a Ranma and Akane WAFF fic. In fact, this fic is centered around this one idea. It *proves* (Derisivesnort) that no matter who Ranma sleeps with, he could only madly truly deeply care about his OneTrueLove, Akane. No matter how many kids he might have with other girls, Akane is the only one he loves. It's a Ranma/Akane match up from start to finish.  The only thing missing is a song and dance routine of them declaring their love for one another. Perhaps Eric Hallstrom could ghostwrite a scene for Vince.

The fact this is obviously a verbose defense of the idea that it can ever be anything other than Ranma and Akane is the most likely reason this fic was so fawned over and claimed by many to be a great work. It's not. If anything it's a less honest version of 'A Real Man'. At least there Ranma admitted he was (and correctly portrayed as) a misogynist pig. Here we're supposed to have some sympathy for poor downtrodden Ranma, who tried his absolute bestest in the world to satisfy all the girls in his life, sacrificing the happiness he could have had with Akane. *sniffle sniffle*

Whoops, gotta throw up. Be right back.

It should be noted that Akane, bastion of kindness, understanding and empathy, refuses Ranma's offer: it might make Kasumi look bad.

I find it ironic that in an effort to make a character sympathetic, he makes her look like a complete and total bitch.

You know, this fic made me actually hate both the characters for this story. I think it's partially because Vince is trying to invoke sympathy through, well, deplorable actions and behavior, and trying to disguise it under false pretenses to boot.

Then again, considering who the author is, it isn't really surprising. He has one theme and plot in all of his Ranma works (Ranma and Akane are OneTrueLoves.) Everything else is window dressing, Cliched, overdone window dressing.  Don't get me wrong. Vince is an okay guy. Terrible at discussing a point, and has the typical tunnel vision that comes with fanatical devotion to an idea (Unlike me. I don't have tunnel vision at all. Mutsumi really is a Goddess), but an okay guy.

It should be noted Vince wrote a follow-up/prelude to AMAW, 'Ranma and the Heart of the Pheonix' which entailed Kiima's seduction. It was a complete waste of time, since AMAW already established Ranma only loved Akane, and that only reenforces something a one shot already did.

The grammar is coherent, but because the fic is a failure of its stated goal, completely misrepresents itself, and invokes the complete opposite of its intended effect (feeling intense dislike for R+A instead of sympathy the author wanted)  it gets a 1 out of 5.

[Brian]

I kind of liked the subtle metafiction qualities involved.  Some (two -- guess which ones!) of the characters were characters.  Some of them were cardboard cutouts.  If you read the interaction between Ranma, Nodoka, and Genma, it's almost like the dear old panda is channeling everything Vincent disagrees with about the community who goes for the 'Ranma gets all the girls' agenda.

I could be biased.

I think what made the fic not work for me is that even though Ranma's with (in some sense) all these girls, he doesn't care about any of them at all (except Akane), and just like Mr. Sommer, that doesn't really sit well with me.  It was kind of amusing, but....

[Edward]

I find it ironic that in an effort to make a character sympathetic, he makes her look like a complete and total bitch.

Actually, there are a fair number of fics that manage the same thing, though not always with Akane.

Thanks for the warning, though, it sounds like the standard pointless harem-fic is better than this.

[thepanda]

I remember this fic. I felt so very sorry for Kasumi.

[Bjorn]

Okay.  I'm going to disagree very strongly with DB's review here.  I think his review is biased by what he perceives the "point" of the story as being, to the point of actually distorting the story details themselves.  Let's be honest here:  all stories are pure, utter garbage if you only consider them as "proofs" of character motivations (unless, of course, you happen to agree with those positions ahead of time).  But even though the Chronicles of Narnia may be the most blatant piece of Christian propaganda this side of the Bible, that shouldn't keep the Buddhist from enjoying it as a story.

To me, this story is fundamentally about the importance of honesty in love.  Throughout the manga, Ranma and Akane always deny their feelings for each other; aMaW is a poignant look at what could happen if that kept up.  Ranma is portrayed as an empty man, who gave up his love out of a misunderstanding; there is a bittersweet romance between Ranma and Akane, who were honest with each other too late; and you have the true victim of the story, Kasumi.  As much as Ranma and Akane suffer, there is the implicit awareness that it is Kasumi who is truly hurt by the situation; that the original lack of honesty between Ranma and Akane has become an entrenched lie spreading throughout their lives and their interactions with others. It's a depressing story with no chance of a truly happy ending; and that's really the point.

This is not to say the story is perfect.  The harem aspect of it is utter garbage.  Having Ranma knock boots with just about every female in the cast is pointless.  The premise seems to be that if Ranma hadn't been forced to be unfaithful to resolve the fiancee mess, he wouldn't have been unfaithful to Kasumi at all, but it mostly comes off as a Ranma-is-the-man! circlejerk.   As a part of this, and as Brian said, the majority of the characters are just, well, there.  Ranma and Akane are well-developed, and Kasumi is deliberately left enigmatic.  The other, and there are a lot of others, are set dressing.  The story would be much better off if the author hadn't felt obligated to adress the entire cast and had instead focussed on the core trinity of characters.

In the end, I can't say I'm really fond of the fic, but that's mostly because I'm not a fan of the mopey, our-love-was-never-meant-to-be genre.  If you are, and you can overlook the fact that the fundamental theme of the story requires that Ranma only be happy with one particular person, then give it a read -- it's not a great story, but it's one of the best of this type that you can find in fanfiction, as it avoids the urge to indulge in histrionics and melodrama.  That's damning with faint praise, however.

Now, DB knows Vince, and I don't.  So DB is most likely completely correct when he says that Vince wrote this story to "prove" that Ranma and Akane are One True Loves.  I just don't think that's relevant.  You can't write this sort of story if Ranma doesn't have a One True Love, and Akane works as well as anyone else.  So while I also think the story is flawed, to dismiss it because it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of Ranma falling in love with anyone else is unfair and frankly smacks of fanboyism.  No matter what prompted Vince to write it in the first place, it deserves to be judged on its merits as a story alone.

[Brian]

So while I also think the story is flawed, to dismiss it because it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of Ranma falling in love with anyone else is unfair and frankly smacks of fanboyism.  No matter what prompted Vince to write it in the first place, it deserves to be judged on its merits as a story alone.

Maybe I'm biased.  It's just that there's so much "Ranma/Akane love one-another to the exclusion of everything else" that the "even when they don't" rider doesn't make this work for me.

I can't get over that, and want to argue that you're correct.  It is fanboyism.

On Vince's part.

I mean, come on.  The author pretty much writes the story to say, "Ranma and Akane 2gether 4ever", and I didn't know Vince to make that analysis.  I got that just from reading it myself.  And I don't think you can judge a fanfic as a story alone -- the weight of the original canon should be considered.  I dunno.  I'm not saying that the story was badly written, or that I even really disliked it.  I just didn't care for it at all.

[DB]

"Bjorn" wrote:

]Okay.  I'm going to disagree very strongly with DB's review here.

% Hey, this is a free country. But not when it comes to disagreeing with me. You're not allowed to do that. :)

I think his review is biased by what he perceives the "point" of the story as being,

% Not exactly. Read what I opened with. My primary gripe is that this fic is a 'misrepresentation'. This was *supposed* to be Vince's version of 'Ranma gets all the girls*' fic (that was his statement when he posted it, if he didn't mention it in the actual body of the story), and it's obviously not. In fact, you admit below that the harem aspect is utter garbage (and you're right) However that very premise is why Vince hooked Ranma up with everything with a vagina. My contention is that that's not true. Ranma doesn't 'have' the girls anymore than he does in the canon series in any real sense, hence Ranma's casual "I'd dump them all for you' bit.  They mean nothing to him. Sleeping with them in this fic is as unimportant as talking to them in the canon series.

% Either Vince is a terrible writer (and he's not), or there's some other point to the story. Given what he's said about it, what he's written before, and what was in the story itself, my conclusion is that the true point to the story is that it's an R+A fic which blasts the idea that they could ever love anyone else no matter what.  If Brian is right, Genma actually gives a speech which says much the same thing (disguised as dialogue) which only reenforces the idea of what Vince was really trying to accomplish vs   his stated goal

% So, let me restate had Vince's stated purpose of the fic not been that it was a Ranma Gets all the Girls (RGAtG) fic, I would have just ignored it as a poorly written piece. That's what raised the radar and made me sharply criticize the story.

ho agree with those positions ahead of time).  But even though the Chronicles of Narnia may be the most blatant piece of Christian propaganda this side of the Bible, that shouldn't keep the Buddhist from enjoying it as a story.

% Unless the author of Narnia tried claiming his story has nothing to do with Christianity, but is about furniture (hence the Wardrobe in the title). Then you can legimately say it's BS. Which is my real gripe with this  Had it not been a supposed 'RGAtG' fic, then it's just another story with R+A 2geth 4ever, which are a dime a dozen.

To me, this story is fundamentally about the importance of honesty in love.  Throughout the manga, Ranma and Akane always deny their feelings for each other; aMaW is a poignant look at what could happen if that kept up.  Ranma is portrayed as an empty man, who gave up his love out of a misunderstanding; there is a bittersweet romance between Ranma and Akane,

% I'll disagree with you there. It's not really bittersweet, not in the context of this story. But that is more a reaction thing that an objective matter.

who were honest with each other too late; and you have the true victim of the story, Kasumi.  As much as Ranma and Akane suffer,

% It's suffering that's less than all the others. Even if they can't be open about it, they have each other. None of the other girls in the story can say that about Ranma. In any real way, IMO.

there is the implicit awareness that it is Kasumi who is truly hurt by the situation; that the original lack of honesty between Ranma and Akane has become an entrenched lie spreading throughout their lives and their interactions with others. It's a depressing story with no chance of a truly happy ending; and that's really the point.

% But it *does* have a (mostly) happy ending for R+A. They confess their undying love for each other, they sleep together and it *means* something (unlike every other girl) and that they will continue to be together behind everyone's back.  Heck, it's a stronger love than ever in many ways because Ranma's 'tried' a bunch of other girls, but in the end they don't matter. He'd dump them all in a heartbeat. Only Akane matters and ever did.  And R+A are bascially cool with it.  The only way it would have been depressing is if one threw themselves at the other and the other rejected them on the premise it was too late. Now *that* would have made it bittersweet.

% But that's not what happened. They're merely keeping up appearances for one other's sake (Kasumi), which honestly means nothing in the big scheme of things, IMO. So if you are correct about  Vince trying to achieve a bittersweet feeling to their relationship, I feel he failed in it. If anything, it makes me dislike R+A all the more.

This is not to say the story is perfect.  The harem aspect of it is utter garbage.  Having Ranma knock boots with just about every female in the cast is pointless.

% Nonononono. That was *supposed* to the be the point. It's a RGAtG fic. That's why it's there. I find it interesting that you found what was supposedly the premise of the fic utter garbage. So you admit his attempt to make the fic RGAtG is a failure as well, yes? You're lauding it for different aspects in the story(R+A interactions and relationship)? We're not actually disagreeing as much as you think we are, then.

As a part of this, and as Brian said, the majority of the characters are just, well, there.  Ranma and Akane are well-developed,

% Because that's what it's really all about. R+A.

and Kasumi is deliberately left enigmatic.

% Nope. She's unimportant as well, just like the other girls.

The other, and there are a lot of others, are set dressing.  The story would be much better off if the author hadn't felt obligated to adress the entire cast and had instead focussed on the core trinity of characters.

% You know, you're absolutely correct. The catch is that was not what Vince was supposed to be writing, which is why he couldn't do it and did what he did with the mass harem bit.

I
Now, DB knows Vince,

% realtively. We conversed for a while.

and I don't.  So DB is most likely completely correct when he says that Vince wrote this story to "prove" that Ranma and Akane are One True Loves.  I just don't think that's relevant.

% Heh. Now here we disagree. :)

You can't write this sort of story if Ranma doesn't have a One True Love,

% Well, my contention is that that is the very premise of the fic, so I agree with you, just for a different reasons.

and Akane works as well as anyone else.  So while I also think the story is flawed, to dismiss it because it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of Ranma falling in love with anyone else is unfair and frankly smacks of fanboyism.

% That's utterly ridiculous.  My primary gripe was the misrepresentation of the fic, which led into my contention of what Vince was really writing. had he not claimed it was a RGAtG fic, I would have just written it off. I don't see where fanboyism comes into it at all, espcially since I have done R+A stories and even a WAFF with them once.

% Out of curiosity let me reverse the accusation you make, The whole fic dimisses the idea of the possibility of Ranma falling in love with someone else. Why doesn't that make the story seem unfair and smack of fanboyism then?

No matter what prompted Vince to write it in the first place, it deserves to be judged on its merits as a story alone.[/quote]

% I'm pretty sure I stated those in the end. The stated goal failed. The fic misrepresented itself as something else. The story invoked the opposite of its intended effect. (It made me dislike these versions of Ranma and Akane, not feel sympathy for them). The plot was weak, the characterizations poor. If Brian is right about Genma, than Vince puts a pseudo rant in as well. I did give kudos to the grammar was coherent.  You can disagree with those assessement, but I honestly believe they are legitmate criticism.

% Anyway, I hope I cleared some points up, and pointed out that we do agree here and there.

DB Sommerl

[Bjorn]

% Hey, this is a free country. But not when it comes to disagreeing with me. You're not allowed to do that. :)

You're not the boss of me!

Okay.  "Strongly disagree" is obviously an overstatement, given that we both think the story has serious shortcomings.  Apparently, I just felt like unnecessary drama. :)  

But just as obviously, I disagree with the reasons you gave for the shortcomings of the story.  On some level, that makes this whole thing academic, but there ya go.

So, let me restate had Vince's stated purpose of the fic not been that it was a Ranma Gets all the Girls (RGAtG) fic, I would have just ignored it as a poorly written piece.

Well, and this is what it comes down to for me.  I don't think Vince's purpose, stated or otherwise, matters one whit.  Shakespeare meant to write schlocky stuff that would sell; Jack Chick wants to illustrate the importance of fundamentalist Christianity.  Criticism based on the author's intentions is of use to the author, but doesn't tell other people whether or not they're going to enjoy the story.

It's suffering that's less than all the others. Even if they can't be open about it, they have each other. None of the other girls in the story can say that about Ranma. In any real way, IMO.

Well, that was my point, actually, though (in retrospect) badly expressed.  Ranma and Akane's lack of honesty ends up hurting everyone around them, and in large part more than it hurts the two of them.

But it *does* have a (mostly) happy ending for R+A. They confess their undying love for each other, they sleep together and it *means* something (unlike every other girl) and that they will continue to be together behind everyone's back.

Well, like above, this is more reaction than objective.  To me, it's not a happy ending -- if anything, it's kind of pathetic.  Neither of them has the balls to do the right thing and cut things off, or to be open about their love.  Instead, they continue to sneak around behind Kasumi's back.

That was *supposed* to the be the point. It's a RGAtG fic. That's why it's there. I find it interesting that you found what was supposedly the premise of the fic utter garbage. So you admit his attempt to make the fic RGAtG is a failure as well, yes? You're lauding it for different aspects in the story(R+A interactions and relationship)?

Yep.  And if I were on the FFML, reviewing it to his face, I'd say the same things you were saying -- as a harem fic, it's a failure.  But here, reviewing it for other people to decide whether or not they want to read it, I don't think it's a valid criticism.

And to be confuddle the issue more, "laud" is an awfully strong word.  I'm describing the story as it actually seems to me.  Even in that context, the story could have been done better, IMO -- dropping the harem aspect, making the potential emotional damage to Kasumi more real, and playing up what effect the whole mess has had on Ranma's relationship with his parents, for example.

and Kasumi is deliberately left enigmatic.

Nope. She's unimportant as well, just like the other girls.

Well, here I disagree.  Kasumi is a central element of this story.  She's the reason that Ranma and Akane can't be together in the end.  Her character isn't well fleshed-out, and whether or not that was deliberate, I think it actually ends up working well.  Does she know about Ranma and the other girls? Did she marry Ranma out of love, or obligation, or a selfish desire to be a wife and mother?  

An intrepretation you could place on the story is that Ranma could love any of the girls, but chooses not to, because he won't let go of his love for Akane.  That's why Kasumi is so poorly fleshed out -- we see this story from Ranma's perspective, and he doesn't understand Kasumi because he doesn't want to.  Of course, this interpretation is pushing it a lot, because the story wasn't written well enough to truly support it.  I'm just throwing it out because it would have made for a much better story. ;)

So while I also think the story is flawed, to dismiss it because it doesn't acknowledge the possibility of Ranma falling in love with anyone else is unfair and frankly smacks of fanboyism.

That's utterly ridiculous.

It is, and I apologize.  I was trying to write that post in the middle of doing four other things, and I didn't spend anywhere near enough time trying to say things the right way.

The point I was trying to make is this.  There are two grounds on which to criticize a story: whether it accomplishes the author's goals, and on its literary merits.  In the end, the first is really only of interest to the author himself.  AMaW could have been a truly well-written, compelling, and fascinating story that still failed to be a real "Ranma Gets All The Girls" story.  The fact that it really ends up just being an R+A story doesn't tell a reader whether or not they're going to enjoy it.

Or, to put it another way, there's a lot more important things to be critical of in this fic that the fact that it's not really a harem story. ;)

The problem is that in fanfiction there's a third ground of criticism, and that's fanboyism -- you can love or hate a story because of the characters it has and how it portrays them, ignoring the issue of literary merit.  While I know this isn't what you were doing, because your fundamental criticism boils down to "the story is R+A and not R+Harem", it's easy to miscontrue your reason for offering that criticism as fanboyism.  I did not mean to accuse you of being a fanboy, as I'm fairly confident that you have written Ranma paired together with about three quarters of the female characters in literary history and are just lurking there, snickering, waiting for the opportunity to bust out your "Ranma+Miss Havisham" fusion on an unsuspecting audience.

Out of curiosity let me reverse the accusation you make, The whole fic dimisses the idea of the possibility of Ranma falling in love with someone else. Why doesn't that make the story seem unfair and smack of fanboyism then?

By this chain of logic, the fact that Shampoo 1/2 only leaves open the options for R+A and R+S pairings dismisses the idea that Ranma could be paired with Ukyou, and hence it smacks of fanboyism. :P

To answer more seriously:  in my eyes, no matter what story Vince meant to write, this is best taken as a story about how there should be no dishonesty in love.  To accomplish this, the story, like most when it comes down to it, depends on the concept of True Love.  So what it really dismisses is the idea that True Love, even unfulfilled, can ever die, and that doesn't have anything to do with fanboyism.

If you consider Vince's intentions, then yes, it's very much a fanboy story.  But that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.

I'm pretty sure I stated those in the end. The stated goal failed. The fic misrepresented itself as something else. The story invoked the opposite of its intended effect. (It made me dislike these versions of Ranma and Akane, not feel sympathy for them). The plot was weak, the characterizations poor. If Brian is right about Genma, than Vince puts a pseudo rant in as well. I did give kudos to the grammar was coherent.  You can disagree with those assessement, but I honestly believe they are legitmate criticism.

Basically what I'm saying (and I hope that I've cleared up) is that the first three points aren't really relevant.  (In fact, I'd say that Ranma and Akane coming across as relatively unsympathetic and selfish is a point in the fic's favour.)

As for the plot and characterizations -- well, I agree.  They're weak.  I would just liked to have seen you discuss them independent of Vince's intentions. :D

Anyways, reading it over while not in a rush, it's clear to me that some of what I said probably comes off as offensive.  That isn't what I meant, by any means, and so my apologies again.

And I don't think you can judge a fanfic as a story alone -- the weight of the original canon should be considered.

That's true, but that's not really my point.  All I'm trying to say is that what the author meant to do is somewhat irrelvant to the question of "is the story good?" (With the exception of metafiction, but let's not get into this.)