Musings of the Players

[Merc]

Reviving this old thread to comment on things following last session.

I talked a bit about some of this with Rat and Drac, mostly with Drac since we were both in the same situation. If you want the log of my chat with Drac, I'm willing to put it up.

Some of the stuff I'm waiting to see what else you give awards on tomorrow morning before mentioning it, but here's most of it. I'm falling asleep as I wrote this, and Drac was falling asleep as we talked, so some of it might seem very rant-ish (or hell it might just -be- rantish, screw 'might seem'):

1) (posted in house rules thread too) Would be nice if Saul could do heals somewhat like in 3E, in that he can convert cleric spells into heals. To fit with mythos of Waukeen, he could pay a hefty toll for doing so, so he'd probably carry some cure spells off hand, but still be able to change spells on an emergency.

2) Criticals: On attacks, it's kind of ridiculous how often we've been getting those 1's and 20's. Those 1's and 20's make the game to a crazy degree, and probably having something like 3E would help, especially if we're seasoned adventurers, where chance of a crit fail is something like 1/400 (roll 1 twice of a d20), and a crit pass is better than 1/400, but still not 1/20 (must hit twice to get the crit effect, which is easier as we level, when we also have more HP and can take them better from opponents who get those crits against us).

3) Success vs Failure EXP: Right now, we seem to get exp in a way that if you succeed at something, you get a lot of exp, if you fail at it, you get very little or no exp. To quote Drac: "<SirGavin> Good RPing is good RPing, whether or not you get screwed by the dice."

Would want more encouragement for exp to be given placed on the action taken, not the dice rolled.

Not to say that Darius didn't deserve exp for stumbling onto thieves's den, and a fair bit for it. (Still, did he deserve -that- much? Jeez... see last comment of point 4)

4) Bonus Exp: I know you said in the first exp post you didn't want arguments over it, but it seems to have gotten somewhat unbalanced lately.

<SirGavin> Really, what gets me is that some of the players can be jailed up, in bed diseased and wounded, and still get 10-20 percent more xp than I manage on those sessions.

<SirGavin> It's not so much that stuff isn't done so much as dune is hypersensitive to a couple characters doing stuff.
Example: Elaine and Seryf get exp for talking, but no exp is given for Elaine and Gavin training/sparring?

Also: Skills that used and actions taken were getting from 10-150 exp in the beginning of the game...but are now getting 100-500 exp? What the heck happened that caused the jump?

I also don't know if Iddy's just good at pushing your buttons effectively or what, but he's getting 300-400 points for using class skills (primarily using Serith well), while others are getting 50-100 for their class skills, and this is with Serith being a -bonus- to a bare bones fighter kit essentially.

He doesn't need exp as much to keep up with others, yet is getting quite a bit for using something that's definitely a boon to his class and thus something he -is- going to use a heck of a lot of.

This is sort of a balancing thing to some degree, but it is weird to see him getting so many points for a kit bonus when the rest of us don't do nearly as well with our class skills when we use them. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve points for using Serith well, but like I said, it is weird that he seems to advance so much on Serith exp points.

He's currently about 3000 experience points over the next player, despite missing on that whole last session's combat exp, which balanced out with exp for finding guild admittedly, but still, 3k exp over the next player? Hell, he's -6k- over the lowest exp player.

To be honest, both Drac and I are sorta at this opinion on bonus exp:
* SirGavin is starting to wish we just had team xp. Would rather focus on role playing rather than have a counter in the back of his head of "well, now I'm another 500 behind."

While it's nice being rewarded for roleplaying, the inbalance on it that seems to have taken hold since the first couple of adventures is kinda making it more of an annoyance. It worked okay when the bonus exp awards were small, but with them as huge as they are...like drac said, I'm also starting to wish we just had team xp, and I'll roleplay for my own sake, not trying to get points to stay even with everyone else.

5) Sessions: We call the game weekly, and meet once a week. Occassionally, like today, we have everyone around and we meet and continue the game session. That's good. Occassionally, however, other players get individualized sessions, which rack up exp from actions and RP'ing...and screws up those who don't get those sessions.

Saul+Darius got one session, Darius+Seryf got a separate session. They got combat exp in addition to RP exp. Where were Gavin and Elaine? Doing RP stuff...that didn't seem to garner them much RP exp either, really. Well, that or doing nothing too and just sleeping or whatever. Dunno really. Time seems to have flown by with no development from that time.

Not so much that I'm bitching about not getting exp, as much as that it doesn't seem fair that Drac and I are getting less exp for getting less gaming sessions. Hrm...actually, I suppose that is bitching. Still!

<SirGavin> Really, the other sessions thing is a problem not just for experience, but also for cooperativeness.
* Elaine nods.
<SirGavin> I mean, it's a definite feeling that the GM pays much more attention to those clammoring for extra sessions.

So to be honest, both Drac and I want to 'clammor for an extra session' for just the two of us (or individualized sessions, whatever). Pay us attention! >_>

[Asrana]

Really? I can't add much to this...simply that I brought the Serith exp thing up with Dune right after the session.

I actually thought I was wandering out alone on this in a bad mood of sorts. >_>;;

Since it is 2:30, I'll just throw in the fact I'm sorta in agreeance with the points brought up.

I guess it stings a bit more with Drac and I (Drac more than me, I guess) sitting waaaay behind...with the hardest exp tables next to Saul. Still yeah, it seems like Darius can drag an awful lot of exp straight from Serith, when she's basically a bonus in exchange for equipment, but is turning into a bonus that created an XP gap and is widening it.

Honestly? For all that I seem to have benefited from it, I wouldn't mind cutting bonus exp to a much mroe secondary position. Currently it accounts for...1/4-1/2 of our total? I'd preffer the group stay relatively on the level with each other more than anything else.

[Carthrat]

Just a few comments of my own! I typed up something big and long, but it's gone. (Secretly, I blame May, for distracting me.)

1) I like this. Um. I talked about it in the house page, but yeah.

:D

2) I like the idea of reducing critical failures. Crit fails are gay, even when enemies do them. I can't reconcile myself with the way you seem to have 1/30 chance of hitting your ally by accident, even if you're a level 5 fighter (which is puportedly pretty awesome). I'd rather reduce their frequency or reduce their effect. 1/400 sounds good.

Critical hits I'd actually like to leave as-is. Combat is supposed to be pretty lethal, remember, and damage-wise, we can all take a few sword blows before going down. A little silly visually. So I think critical hits increase the tension in combat- especially for us, as we get attacked far more often than enemies do.

Yes, this skews the odds against us, but I like combat being dangerous, because it makes victory all the more sweet.

3/4) Bonus XP? I won't say much here, because Elaine did most of it, but yeah. Everyone tends to think they're doing a decent job, but I'll admit I've been thinking, "Hmm, if I do THIS, will I get bonus XP for it?"

It's partially because of the keep-up-with-the-jonses thing, and partially due to the awards being large enough that we're always going to want to claw them ahead. I figure you've been raising them higher because it takes more XP to level, but I'm not entirely against levelling taking longer in and of itself, either.

Just some thoughts.

5) Individual sessions are actually pretty cool. Just gotta try and give people as much screen time as they want, y'know? I'm personally quite pro-active about this, honestly, so I'm the most likely one to actually ask for extra sessions along these lines. Dunno about just giving them to people, but hey.

[Anastasia]

1) - Mmm. I read it and I'll rule on it today. I don't really have any objection per se.

2) - Honestly?  This group has had crazy luck with criticals. I don't know what to make of it; I've never seen a group like this for dicing. On one hand I'm hesitant to mess with these - I do like it this way and it's simplistic. On the other? Mmmm. Darius and Gavin, do you have any opinion on this?

3-4) - Mmm. The jump in experience is purely to offset leveling up, so that said bonuses don't become pointless. But mm, reading this over, you do raise valid points. I'll freely admit I've probably been erratic giving out awards - they tend to be fiat based, and thus varies with my mood and how things strike me.

Off the cuff thoughts and suggestions:

- Simply nuke bonus EXP. Brute force method and I don't really like it.

- Nuke bonus EXP, give out one group award for overall RPing/playing, per session. Feels a little too communist for my tastes, but it does encourage good groupsmanship.

- One overall award for each player. This takes in the totality of what everyone did, not just successes. (I do tend to reward successes well, but Elaine had a point about that, too.)

5) It is a Weekly game, but some side things are best done alone. Taking the entire group along for these sort of things tends to be horridly impractical time and effort wise. If you want sessions and have ideas of things to do or want little things from the GM, by all means say so. I don't mind at all.

---

As another note, by all means bring these issues up. If you feel you have something to say about Serith or bonus EXP or whatever, I'd rather hear it than not. I appreciate the feedback, I really do.

[Carthrat]

I think the thing with bonus XP is to remember that it's bonus XP. I don't feel that it should encompass the lions share of our take, and giving huge rewards for technically small actions doesn't sit right with me. At the end of a quest, sure, but how much do you really learn, overall, just from OHKO'ing one guy?

(<Thrall> 100xp!)

Anyway, I think the things we need to remember are what we're giving out bonus XP for, and the quantity we're doling out.

What is sort of debatable. I like XP to reflect genuine experience and learning. Theoretically, you learn by doing cool things as much as anything, but this also encompasses realising something new about the world, learning something about a friend, etc. These awards aren't big, but they're all part of the adventurers repetoire. i.e., this XP should reflect what you as a player learn as well as what your character should learn.

Of course, 'doing cool shit' is plenty awesome enough, too.

The other thing is quantity. I think bonus XP should be more like sprinkles on top of the cake, rather than the cake itself, so while we should get an amount that does give us incentive, it shouldn't be so great that we get silly about it. I figure, maybe just looking at the quest/monster XP you've given out, and figuring bonus XP should equate to about 10-20% of that?

[Iron Dragoon]

Hmm.. For crits.. Eh.. I'm sorta leery of messing with them..

I understand what Rat was saying with them being sorta gay, but... At the same time I sorta like having them around..

I dunno, maybe some kind of extra rule? Something where if you crit fail, you have a chance to cover your ass based on your level/skill at the task?

Like, for each level of proficiency with a weapon, you get one chance to recover from a critical failure? So, with basic proficency, you get one 'save', at specilization you two, mastery threee, ect.

Dunno, really just kinda tossing stuff around.. I will say this, though, I've done a number of things in real life that could count as 'critical failures,' especially in the Marines and firing my rifle, and the better I got with my rifle, the more I *was* able to keep from looking like a retard =p

[Dracos]

Well, let's see, lots off things said.

2)Crit's first.  On the realism thing that Iddy brought in:
10:09] <Dracos> Darius, aren't you supposed to be a master at this point?
[10:09] <Iddy> Yeah.
[10:10] <Iddy> I've got Scimitar Mastery.
[10:10] <Dracos> Shouldn't that be at least equivilent to where you are now in expertise with rifles in real life?  Do you fuck up once a day with those?
[10:10] <Iddy> Ahhahahahhaahhahahah.
[10:10] <Dracos> =p
[10:11] * Dracos is the funnyman.
[10:11] <Iddy> My fuck up with rifles are few and *very* far between.
[10:11] <Iddy> And I'm not a master with it, yet.
[10:11] <Saul> Well, the counter-argument to that is 'yeah but it's easier to fuck up mid-combat'.
[10:11] <Iddy> I'm a step below it.
[10:11] <Iddy> No, its not.
[10:11] <Saul> I guess you'd know!
[10:12] <Iddy> Trust me, people fuck up more in training than they do in combat.
[10:12] <Iddy> I've seen people fuck up using a *grenade* in training, and then do it perfectly in combat every time.
[10:12] <Dracos> The whole 'you can get killed if you screw  up' is great incentive,, I'm sure.

The overwhelming majority of us fighting are supposed to have years and years of training with their given weapons.  I think this sort of thing points if we're trying for realism, the fuckups are way too common.

I think the model is way too simple.  Yes, it's nice to have  it that way.  But it's going to lead to more and more insanity as you have both myself and Iddy heading towards being a grandmaster with our given weapons.

I'm keen with one of two things:  Thing the first: Doing it as 3rd ed does it.  Yes, this was a smart change for the better.  A crit fail is a definite miss, but is it a crit fail?  Roll again to see and only a double crit fail is it.  This would certainly drop us from (between us AND the enemies) having 2-5 crit fails every session and practically guarenteed for our fighters to have at least one every prolonged fight simply by the odds.  Same with crit hits.  A crit is definitely a hit, but need it always be a hit that was savagely deadly?  I don't think so, and yes, I am biased by the fact many enemies need that 18-20 to hit me anyway, so one third of their actual hits are going to be brutal criticals.  The 3rd ed 'roll, if you 20, roll  and if you hit again its a crit' actually makes defenses relevant to crits.  A mage in soft robes is far easier to do critical damage to than a knight in fullplate.

Thing the second: Giving a 1 roll recovery per 1 or 2 ranks of battle skill.  Simple, but takes more and more rolls when it happens and either encourages you to make high and grand mastery meaningless by giving it to random enemies or gives our fighter team a huge advantage.  I'd rather not use this, but at least it'd be sensible and saying "You guys have like 10 years of fighting with this blade.  Crit failures are something you should be accostumed to recovering from".  Saul suggests a dex check here or such.  I dunno about that.

Either way, I'd like us to actually acknowledge that this isn't strange behavior.  I've seen it frequently enough and simple game mechanics knowledge says thhis is how it's likely to happen.  We do about 20+ rolls a session.  Crit fails are going to happen each session and often more than once with that.  A single round of combat these days can involve easily 10-11 attack rolls.   Meaning pretty much there's about a 50 percent chance of having a crit fail every other round of combat.  If we want to keep the dicing this way, that's what's going to happen.  More, it'll get worse as it goes on.  When several of us start hitting the 4-5 attacks a round, we'll be seeing 12-16 rolls just from us each battle round or so since we have 3 people dual wielding.  If we got 5-10 enemies out there with 2 attacks each (fairly sensible around level 8-10), we're going to be seeing more attacks per round than their are faces on the dice.  A crit fail per round would not be odd to see in that case.  Do we want to get to that point where one of us (enemy or hero) is crit failing every round or two of combat?

I think I'll do each as separate posts >_> <_<

Dracos

[Dracos]

1)

Said what I said over in house rules.  I do think it should be kept in mind that this is something far more for the other players than it is for rat.

[Dracos]

5) Individual sessions.

I well understand the 'handling small things in solo bits' type deal.  But...

Fairness does come into play here.  we signed on for a weekly deal.  Not all of us have time even if we want to for this kind of stuff.  It's not a question of being proactive or not, but I have 3 games I'm in each week for about a total of 11 hours.  That's about the max I can guarentee myself weekly without damaging other obligations.  It's simply not possible to keep up sidequest wise with folks yammering for extra sessions every session.  Even more so, when I can, doesn't mean Dune is free.  I've sat there sometimes all day ready and having poked that I am up for gaming an open solo session and watching the moonkingdom game getting run (which is run perpetually in effect and hard to compete with for time).  It's a two way street here that's pretty clogged in my perception and I wouldn't mind much at all if it wasn't for two things...

 I don't have hard numbers because I know it's often melded right into the 'adventure' xp, but Merc brought up (and I think he's right) that this is part of what's creating the xp gap.  Merc and I have played  in the least extra sessions and are coincidentally the furthest behind.  Is it cause and effect?  I can't tell because the stuff is melded together so I don't know if it's other things or folks steadily gaining that extra few hundred each week from side sessions.  That's though a minor thing.  It's annoying and should be balanced out, but it's minor.

 The more major thing is it does feel like those that clamor for the extra sessions and get them are getting a steady advantage.  This is a cooperative venture for all of us, and in effect it's like there's private sessions going on and we come back each week with the GMs eyes far more on the people he just had a session with yesterday.  It might be me observing stuff that isn't there, but it sure feels like there's a disconnect in that area.  It's not intentional or unexpected.  Dune has a reason to be more comfortable with people he's gaming 10-15 hours a week with over people he's gaming 5.  Moreso, it often leads to solo things that are dragging on during the weekly.  I know I've sat there a considerable number of hours waiting for these solo carry ons to be resolved and generally finding sticking my nose into said solo carry ons to be negatively responded to in the 'huh, there's someone else here?  I'm not expecting that!' kind of way.

I see these sorts of things as sort of an issue.  Not a huge one, but something that the effect is there and it's kind of disheartening.  I wouldn't have brought it up if Merc hadn't poked me noticing the precise same kind of stuff and suggesting we ambush Dune to try and 'keep pace'.

Basically, I'd be keen seeing these moved back to 'resolving things that need a little more resolution' and less 'here's a big side adventure complete with hundreds of xp and added storyline that'll be dragged into the next three weeks of sessions!'

Anyhow, more  on that in bonuses.

Dracos

[Dracos]

3)
Tagging this quick.  Success based is a bad way to do bonuses.  It doesn't really encouage good behavior (Which, if anything, is one of the main reasons for bonuses in the first  place).   At least how I play generally, I eventually start following the behavior that is encouraged.  Called shots  for instance?  I no longer do those at all because they're strongly discouraged both on the system side and on the zero reward for playing it side, even if they're significantly more fun to do.

Rewarding on success basically encourages not taking risks with things you know you can't do and twinking in few areas to ensure theres things you have a good success chance on.  Instead of encouraging overall just trying things and being creative, ideas are instead asked "Do I have a very good chance to succeed?  Because if not, this'll not only hurt me in game, but will also garner no reward for trying something exciting".  Rewards based on creativity or general addition to play result in more of that.

If two players both say "hey, I should search for secret doors here", one shouldn't get more xp than the other in a bonus because one rolled high and one rolled low.  They should both get the bonus  (if there's one at all) because they both said "hey, let's search for secret doors here" and used their skills to do so.

That is of course under the assumption it's given at all.  Basically, this is a 'think about what you want to encourage, because I promise you, we notice and pay attention'.

Dracos

[Dracos]

4) The biggie issue, eh?

erratic is a good way to put it, but in my case, they've actively become discouraging rather than encouraging.  Some of it is unconscious things, your 'buttons' to put it simply.

Darius for example, hits your buttons frequently.  Serith, already a reward, has become a perpetual xp machine for him on top of being a big bonus to seizing center stage in a crowded group of players.  On top of that, personality wise he just meshes with you better than the rest of us, so he tends to get xp awards significantly more easily, no matter what he does.  That's at least the trend I've been witnessing the last 4 adventures or so.

Seryf is a bit similar.  You like the girl-girl interplay, and thus everything she does with Elaine is worthy of reward and usually significant reward.

These likes wouldn't be a problem at all if they weren't discouragingly representing themselves in significant increases almost oddly separate from events.  Merc brought up his discussion with Seryf and the realization hit that his character got more xp for having girl talk than for training to kill things with a sword.

Moreso, certain behaviors are shown as favored as well.  I'm playing a conservative fighter.  I don't think I've seen a 'yeah, good job being conservative' once where I've seen several 'way to run ahead of the group'  thumbs up xp to playing a berserker.  Could I play that/  yeah, but then I'd be altering Gavin just to hunt the xp rewards for certain kinds of behavior.

Philosophically?  I don't have a problem with them being there and being small and reasonably spread among us.  So far though?  I can spend two hours playing out with characters from my backstory including sparring and get nothing while Serith can look cute and get Darius 300 xp.  It's discouraging to play under such as I really don't believe I'm doing a horrible job of playing Gavin, but bonus wise, it feels like it.  Last adventure Gavin had a scene with knight leadership, had to tell the rest of the party the calvery wasn't coming, and as usually perpetually played his overprotective self, particularly with elaine who he's gotten a habit of that with, listened and followed the advice of his commander and then proceeded to play shock at the accidental results.  But when you look at the bonuses, nothing without doubly poking.  That's really discouraging when I don't see myself as having played those scenes poorly and don't think it should result in me falling hundreds back compared  to 'yeah, I'm an elf I search, ooh 300 xp!'.  That sort of stuff is discouraging.

I'm also a numbers guy.  At the moment?  I'm nearly 10000 xp behind Darius on the route to level 6.  That's several adventures worth and kind of disheartening in context of the fact it feels like I can't really get any side thing to catch that up.  I don't have a problem being slightly behind from my xp table, but I don't feel I'm doing less work in the party or less RPing than Darius and definitely not that much.  I worry, as a player, of my own impending obseleteness if he continues getting farther ahead of me.  One level makes it tough.  Two or three levels?  It'd be brutal since in effect we're both fighters, with the difference being that way on in the end I get a couple of cure lights and supposedly some support from being aligned with a big organization while he gets a big xp generating tiger that helps him out perpetually.

I'd rather have team xp at this point than bonuses at all.  They haven't been encouraging in my eyes since very early and for some cases, they almost seem like an open smack in the face.  Example of note being Merc's performance, which while slow, was a fair bit of writing for him and in turn resulted in him getting the low man on the totem pole for that scene.  Or, alternatively, hotaru's mention of  the '1000 xp' for darius after a long scene.  This has gotten more pronounced as adventures spread full months now, and it's particularly disheartening to look at a month of gaming and get tiny bonus reward while watching everyone else in the party tons.  I think how they stand now they just generate hostility and there's several folks who've commented that they have no idea why they're getting such huge rewards.

Dracos

[Anastasia]

5) Individual sessions.

I well understand the 'handling small things in solo bits' type deal.  But...

Fairness does come into play here.  we signed on for a weekly deal.  Not all of us have time even if we want to for this kind of stuff.  It's not a question of being proactive or not, but I have 3 games I'm in each week for about a total of 11 hours.  That's about the max I can guarentee myself weekly without damaging other obligations.  It's simply not possible to keep up sidequest wise with folks yammering for extra sessions every session.  Even more so, when I can, doesn't mean Dune is free.  I've sat there sometimes all day ready and having poked that I am up for gaming an open solo session and watching the moonkingdom game getting run (which is run perpetually in effect and hard to compete with for time).  It's a two way street here that's pretty clogged in my perception and I wouldn't mind much at all if it wasn't for two things...

True, true. Part of it is gaming enthuasm. People want to play and I want to run sessions with these characters since we all seem to be having fun.

I don't have hard numbers because I know it's often melded right into the 'adventure' xp, but Merc brought up (and I think he's right) that this is part of what's creating the xp gap.  Merc and I have played  in the least extra sessions and are coincidentally the furthest behind.  Is it cause and effect?  I can't tell because the stuff is melded together so I don't know if it's other things or folks steadily gaining that extra few hundred each week from side sessions.  That's though a minor thing.  It's annoying and should be balanced out, but it's minor.

Mmm. This is partly true, yes. I still maintain that Darius and his swoop and sprint into the tomb action got him a grand or two extra. But anyway, that's probably a good point. More playing time and more chances for EXP and bonuses=gap. Seems logical enough.

You're probably right in some way, but I'll mull this over in conjunction with other related issues.

The more major thing is it does feel like those that clamor for the extra sessions and get them are getting a steady advantage.  This is a cooperative venture for all of us, and in effect it's like there's private sessions going on and we come back each week with the GMs eyes far more on the people he just had a session with yesterday.  It might be me observing stuff that isn't there, but it sure feels like there's a disconnect in that area.  It's not intentional or unexpected.  Dune has a reason to be more comfortable with people he's gaming 10-15 hours a week with over people he's gaming 5.  Moreso, it often leads to solo things that are dragging on during the weekly.  I know I've sat there a considerable number of hours waiting for these solo carry ons to be resolved and generally finding sticking my nose into said solo carry ons to be negatively responded to in the 'huh, there's someone else here?  I'm not expecting that!' kind of way.

Yeah. I've been starting to notice this, Drac. To be honest, you deserve an apology for it. I felt bad that day where you pretty much waited the entire day away for me to get my shit in order, not to mention things like this. While it is a cooperative venture, herein lies the crux. I'm getting attached to the characters and I know others are as well, and we -want- to do things when we can. Sometimes it spills over(Darius here comes to bleeding edge mind), sometimes it doesn't.

I see these sorts of things as sort of an issue.  Not a huge one, but something that the effect is there and it's kind of disheartening.  I wouldn't have brought it up if Merc hadn't poked me noticing the precise same kind of stuff and suggesting we ambush Dune to try and 'keep pace'.

No, no, no. By all means bring it up. I'd rather see you say something than not. I insist, as a matter of fact.

Basically, I'd be keen seeing these moved back to 'resolving things that need a little more resolution' and less 'here's a big side adventure complete with hundreds of xp and added storyline that'll be dragged into the next three weeks of sessions!'

Anyhow, more  on that in bonuses.

Dracos

Mmm. At the very least notably cut back any EXP from these minor side trips. Keep them more isolated and non directly interfering with the main game, perhaps?

[Anastasia]

1)

Said what I said over in house rules.  I do think it should be kept in mind that this is something far more for the other players than it is for rat.

Okay. Not much of note to say here, we've been hashing this over in other places.

[Anastasia]

3)
Tagging this quick.  Success based is a bad way to do bonuses.  It doesn't really encouage good behavior (Which, if anything, is one of the main reasons for bonuses in the first  place).   At least how I play generally, I eventually start following the behavior that is encouraged.  Called shots  for instance?  I no longer do those at all because they're strongly discouraged both on the system side and on the zero reward for playing it side, even if they're significantly more fun to do.

Called shots are a particularly ick point. I don't want to discourage them as much as I want to discourage them from being used to easily disable or defeat opponents in a single shot or two. You are right about the D and D base system not encouraging them.

There's just a lot of room for advantages and frankly abuse if they're too easy, but I don't want them to be impossible, either. If you have a better suggestion, I'm all ears.

Rewarding on success basically encourages not taking risks with things you know you can't do and twinking in few areas to ensure theres things you have a good success chance on.  Instead of encouraging overall just trying things and being creative, ideas are instead asked "Do I have a very good chance to succeed?  Because if not, this'll not only hurt me in game, but will also garner no reward for trying something exciting".  Rewards based on creativity or general addition to play result in more of that.

Yeah. That's another point, one that I've started to notice recently as well. It's one of the big strikes against the whole bonus EXP messiness. A good deal my fault, too - the person that does the idea to find the hidden doors should get the award, not whom finds them(Unless said finding was intelligent and ingenious as well.). The roleplaying awards are a stab in that direction, I suppose.

If two players both say "hey, I should search for secret doors here", one shouldn't get more xp than the other in a bonus because one rolled high and one rolled low.  They should both get the bonus  (if there's one at all) because they both said "hey, let's search for secret doors here" and used their skills to do so.

Yep.

That is of course under the assumption it's given at all.  Basically, this is a 'think about what you want to encourage, because I promise you, we notice and pay attention'.

Dracos

I'm noticing that. <_<

[Dracos]

5) Individual sessions.

I well understand the 'handling small things in solo bits' type deal.  But...

Fairness does come into play here.  we signed on for a weekly deal.  Not all of us have time even if we want to for this kind of stuff.  It's not a question of being proactive or not, but I have 3 games I'm in each week for about a total of 11 hours.  That's about the max I can guarentee myself weekly without damaging other obligations.  It's simply not possible to keep up sidequest wise with folks yammering for extra sessions every session.  Even more so, when I can, doesn't mean Dune is free.  I've sat there sometimes all day ready and having poked that I am up for gaming an open solo session and watching the moonkingdom game getting run (which is run perpetually in effect and hard to compete with for time).  It's a two way street here that's pretty clogged in my perception and I wouldn't mind much at all if it wasn't for two things...

True, true. Part of it is gaming enthuasm. People want to play and I want to run sessions with these characters since we all seem to be having fun.

Yup and it goes for all of us, but some of us have greater time limitations than others.  Ideally, we don't want the game to be an all encompassing thing to stay even.  It gets frustrating otherwise.

I don't have hard numbers because I know it's often melded right into the 'adventure' xp, but Merc brought up (and I think he's right) that this is part of what's creating the xp gap.  Merc and I have played  in the least extra sessions and are coincidentally the furthest behind.  Is it cause and effect?  I can't tell because the stuff is melded together so I don't know if it's other things or folks steadily gaining that extra few hundred each week from side sessions.  That's though a minor thing.  It's annoying and should be balanced out, but it's minor.

Mmm. This is partly true, yes. I still maintain that Darius and his swoop and sprint into the tomb action got him a grand or two extra. But anyway, that's probably a good point. More playing time and more chances for EXP and bonuses=gap. Seems logical enough.

You're probably right in some way, but I'll mull this over in conjunction with other related issues.

This is what I mentally noted as 'rewarding berserker behavior'.  I looked at that and had to mentally remind myself "Gavin is a knight.  He does not rush off like that, even if it's behaviour getting rewarded in context".

Anyhow yeah.  Mull mull, we're certainly burying you in it ^^;

The more major thing is it does feel like those that clamor for the extra sessions and get them are getting a steady advantage.  This is a cooperative venture for all of us, and in effect it's like there's private sessions going on and we come back each week with the GMs eyes far more on the people he just had a session with yesterday.  It might be me observing stuff that isn't there, but it sure feels like there's a disconnect in that area.  It's not intentional or unexpected.  Dune has a reason to be more comfortable with people he's gaming 10-15 hours a week with over people he's gaming 5.  Moreso, it often leads to solo things that are dragging on during the weekly.  I know I've sat there a considerable number of hours waiting for these solo carry ons to be resolved and generally finding sticking my nose into said solo carry ons to be negatively responded to in the 'huh, there's someone else here?  I'm not expecting that!' kind of way.

Yeah. I've been starting to notice this, Drac. To be honest, you deserve an apology for it. I felt bad that day where you pretty much waited the entire day away for me to get my shit in order, not to mention things like this. While it is a cooperative venture, herein lies the crux. I'm getting attached to the characters and I know others are as well, and we -want- to do things when we can. Sometimes it spills over(Darius here comes to bleeding edge mind), sometimes it doesn't.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with attachment, as long as it's with all of us.  Basically, when the extra effort is placed on attachments already formed strong, it can feel really hard to participate effectively.  When folks that don't need any extra at the moment are getting the extra thought/inspiration time, it tends to push the rest of us further from center stage rather than dragging us together into center stage.

I fully understand the whole thing.  I know I'd generally be thrilled with more time playing Gavin.  It's just if we have it how it's been going, it becomes isolating into groups that have 'x' hours consistant with you each week.

I see these sorts of things as sort of an issue.  Not a huge one, but something that the effect is there and it's kind of disheartening.  I wouldn't have brought it up if Merc hadn't poked me noticing the precise same kind of stuff and suggesting we ambush Dune to try and 'keep pace'.

No, no, no. By all means bring it up. I'd rather see you say something than not. I insist, as a matter of fact.

I understand, but I still try and restrain unless others are seeing these too.  I know well my ability and tendancy to argue things into the ground as well as my tendancy to hyperfocus on numbers and thus if it's a minor thing, I wait a bit to see if it resolves itself.  trust in the gm and all that =P  I know things do lopside from time to time if a campaign is to be exciting at all.  This has gone on a bit and others saw it, so it got discussed and then elaborated on.

Basically, I'd be keen seeing these moved back to 'resolving things that need a little more resolution' and less 'here's a big side adventure complete with hundreds of xp and added storyline that'll be dragged into the next three weeks of sessions!'

Anyhow, more  on that in bonuses.

Dracos

Mmm. At the very least notably cut back any EXP from these minor side trips. Keep them more isolated and non directly interfering with the main game, perhaps?

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Sounds good enough as a fix to try for starters =)  That and keep an eye open for where others can be worked in.  I'm not blind to the fact that sometimes they carry over.  But if they carry over, it's no longer solo and should be open to drag the others into it.  Yes, it disrupts the one on oneness of the sidegame, but more importantly, it keeps the 'this is a living world we're in' experience and keeps everyone engaged.

Dracos