Musings of the Players

[Dracos]

3)
Tagging this quick.  Success based is a bad way to do bonuses.  It doesn't really encouage good behavior (Which, if anything, is one of the main reasons for bonuses in the first  place).   At least how I play generally, I eventually start following the behavior that is encouraged.  Called shots  for instance?  I no longer do those at all because they're strongly discouraged both on the system side and on the zero reward for playing it side, even if they're significantly more fun to do.

Called shots are a particularly ick point. I don't want to discourage them as much as I want to discourage them from being used to easily disable or defeat opponents in a single shot or two. You are right about the D and D base system not encouraging them.

There's just a lot of room for advantages  frankly abuse if they're too easy, but I don't want them to be impossible, either. If you have a better suggestion, I'm all ears.

The way they handle it in D&D is lazy.  My philosophy of it wraps on the simple premise; The GM is in charge of all resolutions.  The GM gets to decide whether a blow to the arm is disabling or just stunning and dangerous.  Called shots, in an idea case, should just be standard handling of descriptive prose "Is he going for a difficult strike?  Yes, no?, +1 ac, or -1 ac, or etc."

A blow to the head can be fatal.  It can be frightening and painful.  It could be dehabilitating.  I think the important thing is that the GM decides which of these it actually is.  The GM also decides relevance.  Is a penality relevant against a troll which generally has oversized arms and regeneration?  Probably not, it might even be easier than normal strikes.  Is a penalty relevant striking against against a swift moving thief's foot?  Yeah, certainly since it's a lot harder to hit and if it hits, the gm should probably consider whether or not its a maiming blow.

I'd suggest just doing on the fly rulings.  Use a limit of -2 bonus to +4 penalty.  Decide based on whether it barely hit or was an easy strike how devestating it'll be in your head.  Decide the bonus or penalty based on how easy the blow is, how well its RPed, etc.  In other words, use it as something to encourage active fighting rather than roll based ones.

Rewarding on success basically encourages not taking risks with things you know you can't do and twinking in few areas to ensure theres things you have a good success chance on.  Instead of encouraging overall just trying things and being creative, ideas are instead asked "Do I have a very good chance to succeed?  Because if not, this'll not only hurt me in game, but will also garner no reward for trying something exciting".  Rewards based on creativity or general addition to play result in more of that.

Yeah. That's another point, one that I've started to notice recently as well. It's one of the big strikes against the whole bonus EXP messiness. A good deal my fault, too - the person that does the idea to find the hidden doors should get the award, not whom finds them(Unless said finding was intelligent and ingenious as well.). The roleplaying awards are a stab in that direction, I suppose.

If two players both say "hey, I should search for secret doors here", one shouldn't get more xp than the other in a bonus because one rolled high and one rolled low.  They should both get the bonus  (if there's one at all) because they both said "hey, let's search for secret doors here" and used their skills to do so.

Yep.

That is of course under the assumption it's given at all.  Basically, this is a 'think about what you want to encourage, because I promise you, we notice and pay attention'.

Dracos

I'm noticing that. <_<

>_> <_<

Stealthy learn powers? =P

Dracos

[Merc]

Going to post two sets of logs here for discussion. First log set is the discussion over Beast Rider's EXP Progression Table from this morning in #mk. Second log set is a PM between me and Iddy commenting on that. Some slight edits taking unimportant conversation out might occur.

First log set:
[11:12] <Dracos> Ana,re: xp tables as an opening thought: How it's been playing?  I'm not seeing Darius at any significant disadvantage compared to the other two fighters.
[11:14] <Dracos> So maybe he should be on our xp tables, or us on his as the benefits/penalities its meant to encompass aren't really showing up.  But mmm,  I don't really think that's necessary.
[11:14] <Merc> I think Iddy should be on yours, not the other way around. You're all a lot more powerful thank Saul and I at same level. >_>;
[11:15] <Merc> than*
[11:15] <Dracos> Merc: Agreed.
[11:15] * Hotaru-chan nods.
[11:15] <Dracos> Which is why I proposed the knight kit be  on that xp table to begin with.
[11:16] <Ana-away> I'd prefer not to muck with the EXP tables, but that's a suggestion. (For God's sake, talk to Iddy about it before you post much on it. Just as a cortesy if anything else.) Anyway, BRB
[11:16] <Dracos> I figured it was too powerful relative to a normal fighter with an organization alliance, a couple proficiencies, and such.
[11:17] <Dracos> anyhow, I think I'm with Dune there only in "If xp was neutral, it wouldn't matter"
[11:17] <Dracos> Him leveling an adventure early wouldn't be a big deal.
[11:17] <Dracos> It's when it starts getting 2-3 adventures early that it does.
[11:17] <Hotaru-chan> As the gap widens, though...
[11:17] * Merc nods.
[11:17] <Merc> Right now it's more controlling what could be a serious problem than an immidiate problem
[11:18] * Hotaru-chan put it in terms of fractions to really get it across: Darius requires 1/7 his current XP to level. Elaine, Gavin, and Seryf? We all need a little under 1/2.
[11:18] <Dracos> The gap, if anything, needs to be in may and my favor
[11:18] <Dracos> since by level 20 we'll need 600000 xp more than him.
[11:19] <Dracos> His level 20 is where our level 18 is.
[11:19] <Dracos> His level 11 where our level 10 is.
[11:20] <Dracos> Basically, even in neutral, he'll get a ways ahead without any help there.
[11:20] <Dracos> The extra pushes just make it significantly more apparent earlier.
[11:23] <Hotaru-chan> Which...is kinda the other thing. He comes off as the balance of Gavin and I (HP between us, AC between us, Damage between us) leaning slightly on the high end, plus Serith, just from a power stand point.
[11:23] * Ana-away nods to Drac. Mmm. EXP tuning.
[11:24] <Ana-away> For the moment, let's wait for Iddy and talk with him about it, I think. Do you think hiking up his EXP table would be the best solution? I'll do if everyone feels it's needed, I'm just loathe to fiddle with them mid game.
[11:24] <Dracos> ANa: I dunno.
[11:25] <Dracos> If xp rewards continue at all like they are, with playtime being a strong facet, it'll need to be in order to keep it sane.
[11:25] <Dracos> I'd rather have the balance though more be reflected in my and hotaru's backstuff coming into play.
[11:25] * Hotaru-chan doesn't really either. The feeling just is that he has boost after boost after boost to put him noticeably above Drac and I for less exp.
[11:25] <Merc> If you hike it up and it tosses him back a level, keep him on his current level, but just for him to progress, he'd have to follow new exp table. But yeah, right now Hotaru has a point that his abilities are something between Drac's and her's while still having Serith as a bonus.
[11:25] <Merc> And yet he's got a much easier exp table
[11:25] <Dracos> It's not a problem being a level below if that level is balanced with infrastructure and such.
[11:26] * Ana-away nods.
[11:26] <Ana-away> Mmm.
[11:26] <Dracos> There's supposed to be other things in play to help balance
[11:26] <Dracos> that aren't so much.
[11:26] <Ana-away> I'm almost certainly going to fuck with bonus EXP in some fashion now, to be fair.
[11:26] <Ana-away> Yes, that's what I was thinking, Drac. He wouldn't lose al evle, just need a ton to level up again.
[11:27] <Dracos> I'd wait on modifying Iddy's tables and more relevantly, just work in stuff for us.  It's okay if he levels fast but gets no other bonuses.  Rangers get allies, folks who'd call to them for help, etc.  Same with knights who, in this country at least, should be providing a huge infrastructure bonus, allies, aid, etc that acount for some of the benefit balancing.
[11:28] <Hotaru-chan> I'm not a ranger, I don't think I even get allies. >_>;;
[11:28] <Merc> Fiera!
[11:28] <Merc> She'll follow you around with hearts in her eyes
[11:28] <Dracos> I thought you were, or a varient on ranger.
[11:28] * Ana-away nods to Drac.
[11:29] <Hotaru-chan> Stalker, I can't remember if my follower thing got yanked.
[11:29] * Ana-away chuckles at Merc.
[11:29] <Dracos> I don't mean that these are followers =p.
[11:29] <Merc> I thought follower thing was yanked for everyone.
[11:29] <Hotaru-chan> Oh.
[11:29] <Hotaru-chan> >_>;
[11:29] <Dracos> I spoke pretty strongly against followers and I'm pretty sure they got yanked for all.
[11:29] <Dracos> since they crowd the scene.
[11:29] <Dracos> and the scene is crowded enough.
[11:29] <Dracos> I think it would've been more neat, lets say, last session if the knights and elves had joined in.
[11:30] <Dracos> Not coming through the same door as us
[11:30] <Dracos> but just sort of a knowledge that 'look, here's your allies working for you'
[11:30] <Hotaru-chan> But something like a coordinated attack from all directions on the whole guild.
[11:30] <Dracos> exactly
[11:30] <Dracos> they could've been entirely off camera after  the initial bit.
[11:30] <Dracos> But it did really feel weak being in the power center of the knights and having them have to hold back there.

Second post log:
[14:06] <Iddy> I'll PM Dune about it.
[14:07] <Ami-chan> Was around 11am
[14:07] <Ami-chan> that talk went by
[14:07] <Ami-chan> and Ana is probably going to put you off for now
[14:07] <Ami-chan> since he's distracted with SM gaming
[14:08] <Iddy> Eh, well, at least it'll get it into his brain and mine to pick it up later.
[14:08] <Ami-chan> heh
[14:09] <Iddy> >.> I don't even consider XP for that stuff, really <.<;
[14:11] <Iddy> I feel like I'm about to get beat down here =p
[14:11] <Ami-chan> Mostly, the commentary right now is that as a warrior, you're essentially between Drac and May in terms of damage, AC, speed, etc, or maybe a little better than average. However, you also have Serith as a bonus to you, but are also racking up XP for using a bonus, when your character's XP table is faster than Drac's and May's. Essentially, if you were levelling equally, at level 18 for them, you'd already be level 20.
[14:12] <Ami-chan> And yet you're not levelling equally, so we want to see more balanced bonus exp, and maybe seeing your exp table matching Drac's and May's.
[14:12] <Ami-chan> Though since you weren't included in that discussion, we didn't post it in the musings thread yet.
[14:12] <Ami-chan> As we wanted to see your thoughts on it first.
[14:13] <Iddy> Well, I know I've been racking up XP like I'm standing under a waterfall of it..
[14:13] <Ami-chan> Right now it's not a problem if you're like a level ahead, but if it continues, and you start being 2-3 classes ahead of everyone?
[14:13] <Iddy> I just never really paid any attention to it.
[14:14] <Ami-chan> Everyone's going to start being obsolete around you
[14:14] <Iddy> Well, yeah, I can see that, and I didn't even know how far ahead I was until last night, though. I knew I was way ahead of Rat, but I didn't know how far ahead of everyone else.
[14:15] <Iddy> And to be honest, I haven't really done much side-story stuff. And all the side story stuff I've done has always led to some kind of medium to big combat situation.
[14:16] <Iddy> Where as you and Seryf do side RP stuff all the time, so I never really paid attention to it.
[14:16] <Ami-chan> You're at 28,022, Then is Rat at 24,959, then Seryf at 24,610, then Gavin at 24,315, then me at 22,989
[14:16] <Ami-chan> I haven't done side RP stuff at all. >_>;
[14:16] <Ami-chan> besides meeting with Elaine's mother and uncle
[14:16] <Ami-chan> everything else has involved pretty much everyone else.
[14:18] <Iddy> Well, yeah, but you and Seryf score XP for RPing stuff, I don't really get the chance to do that all that often.. I think the biggest problem was that Dune really like the Beast Rider idea and once I got into it and started playing it solidly, he kinda went off the deep end.
[14:19] <Ami-chan> I was scoring XP for RPing stuff a lot more in the beginning. Now not so much, to be honest.
[14:19] <Ami-chan> I actually got the -least- XP for RPing during the bardic show
[14:20] <Ami-chan> Which didn't really make sense to me, really.
[14:20] <Iddy> Yeah, but I never really did at all. The only side stuff I've ever scored was that hunting thing waaaaayyy in the begining, and then the one I split with rat, and the one I split with Seryf.
[14:21] <Ami-chan> You actually consistently get the highest RP awards during the RP sessions. If you look at the two EXP threads for downtime, you'll see you got the highest RP exp.
[14:21] <Iddy> Now, I'll agree I been scoring XP crazy-like, you guys are making it sound like its *my* fault >.>;
[14:21] <Ami-chan> no, it's not your fault
[14:21] <Iddy> Yeah, I know I do.
[14:21] <Ami-chan> Dune is overdoing the bonus awards
[14:21] <Ami-chan> you've actually done -good- to get RP bonuses
[14:21] <Ami-chan> you do deserve them
[14:21] <Ami-chan> it's just that they're crazy high
[14:21] <Ami-chan> and the exp table thing is starting to become apparent now
[14:22] <Ami-chan> even though it didn't use to be, so nobody thought about it earlier.
[14:22] <Iddy> But that's *Dune's* deal. I've never once said anything about wanting XP.
[14:22] * Ami-chan nods.
[14:22] <Ami-chan> I know, he's handling the bonus exp thing
[14:22] <Ami-chan> What he wants -your- input on, is the exp table thing
[14:22] <Ami-chan> where essentially, you'd be levelling less fast.
[14:22] <Iddy> Yeah, but now you guys are talking about slamming me with a penalty to make up for it. I wouldn't mind if he went back and modified (subtracted) xp to even out.
[14:22] <Ami-chan> Since you'd be using something like Drac's or May's table
[14:22] <Ami-chan> instead of base fighter's
[14:23] <Ami-chan> no, the penalty of the exp table isn't to lower your exp. It's to balance your levelling so you level on the same table as Drac and May
[14:23] <Ami-chan> it's a class balance, not a penalty on you for Dune's exp giving
[14:24] <Ami-chan> but if you don't -think- it's a class balance, that's what Dune wants you to comment on
[14:24] <Ami-chan> because he understands that switching to a harder exp table might be seen as a penalty and not a class balance thing.
[14:25] <Iddy> Like I said, if its just to balance out, it'd be easier if he just went back and looked over everything he's given me and be like 'Okay, yeah, I went overboard.. Adjust -200xp' or whatever.. I don't really have a problem with the xp table getting changed around, though..
[14:25] <Iddy> It just feels like my class is getting changed around to suit the pace of the game, when its the pace of the game that's fucked up, not my class.
[14:28] <Ami-chan> Well, that's sort of why I was pointing out that level 18/20 comparison thing. If we were all getting exp equally, when Drac and May are hitting level 18, you'd be hitting level 20. It's kind of weird that your class would level faster when it doesn't exactly have negative features to make up for its bonuses. Drac's class has a lot of features as a knight (like the armor/weapon proficiencies), but is balanced by the slow progression table.
[14:28] <Ami-chan> May's class also has features that are balanced by slow progression table
[14:28] <Ami-chan> Your class features which are bonuses to bare fighter, much like May's and Drac's, still uses bare boned fighter's progression table
[14:28] <Ami-chan> which is faster.
[14:29] <Ami-chan> The problem would have cropped up even if Dune wasn't overdoing the XP thing.
[14:29] <Iddy> I talked to Dune about that before this game ever started. I told him I'd be leveling faster because of Serith, because she increases my combat ability, and suggested the XP be split evenly between the two of us.
[14:29] <Ami-chan> It's just that it became more obvious now rather than later because of it.
[14:30] <Ami-chan> Hrm...I think that's a bit too harsh instead.
[14:30] <Iddy> Actually, no. Think about it.
[14:30] <Iddy> All those 300xp bonuses that I've gotten from Serith would instead go straight to her, with only a small portion going to me.
[14:31] <Ami-chan> I suppose. Plus she does give you more attacks, so it is sort of like Saul's dual class thing.
[14:31] <Iddy> Like, 275xp to Serith, 25 to me.
[14:31] <Ami-chan> I'm still not sure if that's a little too harsh compared to the slower progression table of a paladin's.
[14:32] <Iddy> It wouldn't fix it if you changed the table, just slow it down.
[14:32] <Ami-chan> Hrm...
[14:32] <Iddy> The problem is I'm scoring a shit-ton more XP than you guys are because of bonuses.
[14:32] <Iddy> You making my leveling take more xp than before wouldn't change that. Just make it take a little longer.
[14:32] * Ami-chan nods
[14:33] <Iddy> It'd still add up, and I'd still get ahead of you guys. Just not as quickly.
[14:33] <Ami-chan> So essentially, you're treating it as if you were multi-classing (like Saul), just in two fighter classes, one for you and one for Serith?
[14:34] <Iddy> Not quite.
[14:34] <Iddy> Serith is a seperate character. She should be getting XP seperately from me.
[14:34] <Ami-chan> So just RP XP gets split then?
[14:34] <Iddy> I should just be getting a few small bonuses for her extra work. Like a commander.
[14:35] <Iddy> The problem is I'm getting XP bonuses from *two* characters instead of just one.
[14:35] * Ami-chan nods.
[14:36] <Iddy> My class progression isn't the problem. Its how XP is being awarded to *both* Serith and me.
[14:36] <Iddy> It's like..
[14:36] <Iddy> I'm her supervisor, you know?
[14:36] <Iddy> I give her orders, she does the work, and I get the recognition for it.
[14:37] * Ami-chan nods
[14:37] <Iddy> She should be getting the bulk of XP from that work, with only a little from me for being smart enough to give her orders.
[14:37] <Ami-chan> I don't know exactly how easy it would be for Ana to split that XP though. I guess it's a suggestion on how to balance the class's levelling.
[14:38] <Iddy> Well, just have an even scale.
[14:38] <Iddy> Like, I get 25% of whatever bonus XP she gets awarded, and she gets 25% of my bonus.
[14:38] <Iddy> So, if Serith is awarded 100 XP for whatever action I told her to make, I get 25.
[14:39] <Iddy> And if I get 100 XP bonus for an action or RP, she gets 25 from it.
[14:39] <Ami-chan> Hrm...
[14:39] <Iddy> Well, as long as we are both involved in it.

***

Sooo...discuss balance issues? Note that this is beast rider's progression specifically, not a bonus exp thing (though it does factor in). This is primarily for Iddy and Ana to start figuring on some things here.

[Iron Dragoon]

I get what you all are saying about the XP table, but that's not what the problem is. The problem is the way XP is being awarded.

I'm getting awarded XP bonuses for *two* characters, but I have both characters leveling off of *one* XP pool. That's the problem.

It's also what Drac/Rat were saying earlier. The use of skills, like searching for secret doors. If multiple characters think to do it, they should all get a bonus of some kind, regardless if they find it or not. The bonus may not be as big as if they find it, but they should still get something.

In the past, Dune's awarded Serith (Darius) like, 100 XP or whatever, for tracking or searching or something, while no one else gets XP for similar things... Granted part of this *is* because few of the other PC's actually take the time to even try anything of the sort, but the point is still there. Instead of being awarded 100 XP for it, I'm actually getting awarded 200 XP for it, because it applies to two diffrent characters.

The XP table for Beast Rider isn't the problem. It's the way XP is being shifted around and awarded. Extending my XP table isn't going to solve the problem, just delay it. Instead of me being 20 when you guys hit 18, I'll 30 when you hit 28.

[Anastasia]

I'm going to suggest a new bonus EXP system, feedback appreciated. After this I'll get to post by post comments.

Bonus EXP is dependant on how the group does - it has a base of 15% of the adventure EXP. So for an adventure EXP total of 100, you'd have 15 points as a base. From there the GM modifies depending on how the player played in this session(And any relevant side sessions, at the GM's discretion.). This covers roleplaying, effort, ideas and general contributions, both successful or not.

The range of bonus EXP for each character is from 0 to 2 times the base amount of bonus EXP. This feels like a far easier and balanced way to reward players without it turning messy.

As a note, I'm likely to give out a zero only if a PC is NPCed the entire session. I can't really reward you for good playing if you're not here! Ideally I'd like to keep the range of EXP given from .5 to 1.5 times the bonus EXP unless a player is exceptionally bad/not here or exceptionally good.

Thoughts?

[Dracos]

It's acceptable but...

I'd really like to push non-xp rewards.  As stated, I'm a big fan of it rather beiing 'you're doing a good job, keep it up' or vice versa commentary.  We're here to RP and that should be the reward, not the xp.  XP is a scale on our battle capabilities and such more than anything else and well, it's all well and good to go "Bad player, no biscuit" if they miss a session, it's sort of out of touch with your player base and just lessens the teams ability to do neat quests that might be possible with an extra hit die from a level gain and such.   At the same time, we don't want players getting far ahead of the crowd since it makes it harder to balance, they have more they can do, and then they keep getting the 1.5-2 bonus.  If iddy, for example, picks that up a few adventures  in a row, you'd get the same issue with him scaling quickly ahead of the pack.

if someone is being really good in game, they should end up getting in game rewards.  xp shouldn't be needed on top.  This can be reputation.  it can be friends that can later be called in.  it can be magic items.  It can be just the fun of playing well.

If someone is honestly being good, it's fine to just tell them that and the rest of us will likely chime in in agreement.

Problems with this model I suggest:  Means more xp needs to be  in plot or we progress slower.  No 'overtly clear' xp bonuses.

Benefits: Your players won't be arguing at each others throats, getting frustrated at being behind.  It won't seem like it's so whim based.  These are mature players so it'll keep the focus on the gaming and not  on the 'scoring'.  And maybe instead folks will update the scorecard or something with funny neat things that've been done instead of it having to be fulfilled by xp bonuses.

Dracos

[Iron Dragoon]

Yes, I for one would *fully* like to see rewards other than XP. Instead of getting a 100 XP from killing that Lich or whatever, it'd be most awesome if you walked into a town and people went, "hey! That's the guy who killed that lich! Awesome! Let me buy you and ale!" or something along those lines.

[Anastasia]

---

Okay, can we take a break in this topic. I'm going ask a simple question and I want simple answers. Feel free to elaborate if you want.

Do you want bonus EXP? If so, in what form. If not, do you favor Drac's suggestion or just not worrying about it? This is turning into a larger headache than it's worth, honestly, and turning something we're having fun with into something that distinctly is unfun.

I'll withhold my opinion for now, as I'm willing to go in whatever direction you guys want with this.

[Merc]

To Iddy: You certainly like your god's piss ale, don't you? ^_^

To Ana: Bonus EXP is fine so long as it's smaller than the plot/battle exp. Getting other rewards, like in-game effects, items, sheet bonuses, reputation, etc, however, are also neat. I'd be happy with either, or a combination of both.

You did that with adventure 4, with Saul getting a lot of bonus exp, but no power-up, Seryf getting less overall exp but good powerups, and the rest of us getting some bonus exp with a small powerup too, and then all of us being treated by the elven villagers to talk about trials and stuff.

[Asrana]

To build off of the 'non-xp' bent right at the moment, I'd kind of like to pull something up:

Yes, NPCs are a hassle...NPCs however, form most of what makes Drac and I notable withour difficult XP tables. It's our connections to political and paramilitary powers that even us out. And we kind of had those neatly tugged out from under us. =/

It was brought up this morning that we could've been using them indirectly: Have elves and knights crashing other thief parties, narrowing down the places Jeras could run to, and perhaps even cornering him in our own way.

Likewise, in sequence, Saul and Elaine could've been applying street pressure or spreading some coins around, picking up where Jeras might go next...

It just seemed like we got narrowed down simply because it turned messy, rather than the GM pausing a moment and turning the mess on its head.

[Iron Dragoon]

I've got no real problem with bonus XP, its good to promote character use all around. Bonuses for being inventive enough to use skills/abilities where handy or otherwise would have been unthought of, inventiveness, ect..

However, bonuses shouldn't be limited to -just- XP, either. Like, for example, my fire resist, and Sun/Moon, ect. Extra spells for Saul, whatever.

[Merc]

On the critical system modification, my suggestion is:

Failure - A roll of 1 is a definite miss. If you roll a 1, you then roll another d20, and if you get another 1, it's a critical failure and only then demands the bad effects of such a roll. Probability goes from 1/20 to 1/400.

Success - A roll of 20 is a definite hit. You then roll again and attempt to make your thac0 against enemy's AC. If you hit them with second roll, you get the x2 damage multiplier. Probability varies based on character's thac0 and enemy's AC.

This isn't quite 3E's system where my understanding is that if you roll a 20, you have to roll another 20 to get the crit pass (or a 19-20 or a 18-20 based on the weapon you hold).

Instead, if you're at a high level, you have more chance of getting a crit pass than if you were at a low level, because you're more capable with your weapons. If your enemy has little armor with a dex of 8, you're more likely to do extra damage than if your enemy was wearing plate mail and had a dex of 20 while carrying a shield. If you're a warrior, you're also going to be more capable of hitting someone with your weapon than the wizard with a staff.

Chances are much better than 1/400, but not quite as good as 1/20, though they do get closer to that as we level.

[Dracos]

Preliminary Revised Critical System

There are two types of criticals.  Critical failure and Critical success.

A critical success chance is created by rolling the highest on the 'try' attempt.  This is a 20 for purposes of to hit or a 1 for skill usage.  A critical success chance is always a success but, to succeed critically, another roll must be made.  If this roll is also a success, then it is a critical success.

Example case:  Iddy rolls a 20 on his to hit and then a 1 after it.  This is a hit, but not a critical hit.  Iddy rolls a 20 with his other blade and then a 16.  Because he's fighting an unarmored wizard, it's a hit and its a critical hit.  Next Seryf goes and rolls a 20 (good rolls!) followed by a 10.  Since her 10 isn't good enough to hit again, she just  succeeds  in hitting instead of doing double damage.


A critical failure chance is created by the opposite.  It involves rolling the worst possible roll on a try attempt.  This is a 1 for purposes of to hit or a 20 for skill attempts.  As critical failures are significantly more disruptive than critical successes, they should happen less often, and thus a second maximum failure (another 1 or 20, respectively) should be rolled to see if its a critical failure.

Current status: Iddy, merc, and myself have rung in 'Yea' on this.


Alternatives:

That with addition:

19-20 threat range for speciaiization
18-20 threat range for high mastery.

That with addition:

19-20 slashing weapons.

+2 to confirm for piercing weapons.

I favor alternative 1, but am good for either.

Dracos