Chargen Guidelines / House Rules

[Jon]

We're going to be using the gestalt class rules. Make a level-6 gestalt character (Use the elite array on DMG 169 for the level-1 ability scores). One "half" of the gestalt must be a Tome of Battle class. The other should be a core (see below) class, but I would be willing to consider expansion classes. This is higher-powered than a conventional level-6 character, but rest assured, your opponents will be tougher to compensate.

For purposes of the above, a "core" class is, anything in the PHB, Artificer, Favored Soul, or Divine Bard. Or Psionic classes, including ones from Complete Psionics.

You may take PrCs on either side of the gestalt, but only on one side at a time. In addition, PrC requirements that are class levels, features, or other class-granted attributes must be met by the classes you've taken on that "side". (I.E. you couldn't take 6 levels of swordsage and cleric, then take a cleric PRC and another level of Cleric at level 7; the cleric PrC has to follow from the cleric side of things.)

starting gold as per DMG. Don't spend it all in one place. (No, seriously, I mean it.)

Alignment: NE and CE are forbidden

Favored classes and multiclassing penalties do not exist.

HP:
Level 1: full
Level 2-6: 3/4 of die size (round up one level, then round down the next, and so on) plus the modifiers you have
Level 7+: roll in channel. After you roll, you may choose to take that roll, or have me roll the same die size. If you choose my roll, you must take it, even if it's lower. Then, add the modifiers you have.

We're using the Defense Bonus rules. This gives you some free AC if you want it. May react unfavorably with warforged, due to 3.5e warforged being a bit lame. Notify me if this is a concern for you and I will come up with something. If your class is not listed in the table, check its armor proficiencies and compare to the classes listed to find where it goes. Note: you only get the higher of the two bonuses for your classes, just like the rest of gestalt rules. Not both.

If anyone wants to make a crafter, consult Craft Points rules.

Skills/Feats:
All classes gain an extra +2 skill points per level. Feats every 2nd instead of 3rd level.
Languages are as in the Eberron book.

Improved Toughness no longer exists as a feat.
Toughness is altered to give 1 hp per level rather than +3 hp as a one time thing.  It can still only be taken once.

Magic Items do not require a +1 enhantment modifier before applying a special effect.  They do still require masterwork.  Therefore it is okay to have a Holy Sword that is not a +1 Holy Sword.

Racial substitution class levels allowed.

Hands waved:
I handwave material components (Everyone gets the benefit of Eschew Materials for free, with a ceiling of 50gp instead of 1gp. this ceiling will go up over time as you level. By level 20, you won't need the 5000gp diamonds for raise dead.)
Food can likewise be handwaved; you'd be expense-accounting it anyway, and this isn't Spreadsheets and Sycophants. In fact, if you can feasibly carry the stuff, you can basically buy a "handwave any of the cheap mundane items (30 gp or less in cost, not including alchemical items)" kit for 100 gp. A Handy Haversack is probably a good idea.
HP will be healed if you take what 4e calls an "extended rest". We'll handwave this as the result of healthy living and the Cleric spontaneously casting healing with any spells he has left at the end of the day. Death can happen and will need to be resolved according to the rules. (TPK would be retconned, though.)

Eberron splatbooks and other provided splatbook fragments are allowed.

Other splatbooks: (1st-party, v3.5 only)
Use of splatbooks will be evaluated for brokenness. If you use a splatbook, it's more likely I will too. I also want to make sure one player doesn't feel obligated to read through a lot of splatbooks just because another player does.

Dracos has asked for Vexing flanker from PHB2. It is allowed.
Navi has asked for Versatile Performer and Lingering Song from Complete Adventurer. It is allowed.
Navi has asked for the Lyric Thaumaturge PrC from Complete Mage. It is allowed.

Loot house rule: http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php?topic=100784.msg1013264#msg1013264

[Dracos]

Alright.

Improved Toughness no longer exists as a feat.
Toughness is altered to give 1 hp per level rather than +3 hp as a one time thing.  It can still only be taken once.

Magic Items do not require a +1 enhantment modifier before applying a special effect.  They do still require masterwork.  Therefore it is okay to have a Holy Sword that is not a +1 Holy Sword.

[Dracos]

Randomly:

I encourage magic items from as many places as possible for both us and our enemies.  :)  Neat weird things are cool.

[Jon]

Navi actually asked this in PM, but there's nothing private about it, so I'm moving it here.

Quick question for my Wizard (decided to go ahead and do that in lieu of my bard):

Can I buy scrolls with my starting gold and have them scribed into my spellbook?  And, if so, I presume there is the 100gp scribing fee attached?  Danke!

It seems reasonable that you be allowed to do this. Do note the Spellcraft roll (DC 15 + spell level) attached to this process; you'll have to take 10 for these rolls, given the penalty for failure. In addition, since each spell takes 24 hours to scribe, you can't have been doing this too often. You can purchase a maximum of 15 spells per caster level in this manner (and they must be ones that your taking 10 on your Spellcraft roll could have succeeded at; no buying level 9 scrolls at first level!)

However, since you've just turned level 6, you can't have had time to do this for level 6 yet. So, maximum of 75 spells in this manner. That ought to be enough. (Why yes, wizards are amazingly versatile, why do you ask?)

[Navilee]

Navi actually asked this in PM, but there's nothing private about it, so I'm moving it here.

Quick question for my Wizard (decided to go ahead and do that in lieu of my bard):

Can I buy scrolls with my starting gold and have them scribed into my spellbook?  And, if so, I presume there is the 100gp scribing fee attached?  Danke!

It seems reasonable that you be allowed to do this. Do note the Spellcraft roll (DC 15 + spell level) attached to this process; you'll have to take 10 for these rolls, given the penalty for failure. In addition, since each spell takes 24 hours to scribe, you can't have been doing this too often. You can purchase a maximum of 15 spells per caster level in this manner (and they must be ones that your taking 10 on your Spellcraft roll could have succeeded at; no buying level 9 scrolls at first level!)

Okii.  Was asking to try and expand my repertoire beyond 6 spells of 2nd and 3rd level

[Dracos]

I believe I am done.  Whee.

btw: long off, but it'd be total win if the requirements for master of nine were a bit lighter.  I'm going for it anyway as merc has given cleverness to reduce it to only 4 feats and I've taken one along that line already (2/5ths there~) but yeah, 5 feats, 40 skill points, and six manuevers for a 5 level class prestige class is rough.  And its not like its a tree of feats, but unrelated stuff like dodge or blind fight.  It's way over the reqs for any other prestige class in the book and while cool and powerful, it's really just saying 'swordsages only and with a high feat cost.  Mastery of Nine is really powerful (especially for multiattack strikes) and the dual stance thing is super neat, but the entry cost is ridiculously high in basically specing out most of 7 levels of options to enter (longer for me because I've chosen some other options).

I could totally go for less feats, or maybe just 'five martial feats' instead rather than 5 specific feats, 40 skill ranks, and 6 manuvers.   :3

[Merc]

Well, to be fair, you're not -meant- to access it before level 9-10 because it's good, at least that was the design intended, I feel.

However, Improved Unarmed Strike and Blind-Fight are really funky choice selections. Blind-Fight sort of makes sense if you consider that it's a bonus feat for warblades (and it's really stupid there still. Why the hell don't they get Martial Study or Martial Stance?), which is one of the better entry points into the PrC.

Generally though, you can't access it until level 10 without multiclassing. Swordsages can't go in until level 13 (unless they're human or strongheart halfling, in which case they can enter at level 10). If you play a monksage, you can go in 3 levels earlier still since you'd get improved unarmed strike there. They still suffer from lacking feats as they must purely dedicate feat selections to go in there, leaving nothing open.

Warblades, on the other hand, can get in at level 10 with a feat to spare. They get two bonus feats that let them grab Improved Initiative and Blind-Fight by level 9, spend feats 1,3,6 on the other feats, and have a leftover feat to play with. This is without even having to be human or strongheart halfling.

Quickest path is usually Fighter 2/X 4, where X can be either swordsage or warblade. Warblade has a bonus in that if you take it to 5, going a level later, you have one feat to play with, but you can enter by level 7 with that multiclassing.

You've technically punished yourself by grabbing 3 feats that aren't connected and swordsage path, and not having a racial feat, despite the extra feats available in this game, since you couldn't multiclass on the ToB side.

My recommendation? Give up Shadow Blade feat. It gives you, what? +5 damage? When you're doing...1d3+6d6 damage before dex/str effects? Is it really worth it? You could always get it later, after you've gotten into Mo9. Right now you can't get in until level 13. Giving it up, you can get in 2 levels earlier.

Other idea: Give up weapon finesse, get Jon to let you dip into swashbuckler 1 (C.Adv) for weapon finesse. You can get in by level 9 then, with fighter 7/swashbuckler 1 // monksage 8 as your entry.

Oh, and obvious: Being human (or strongheart halfling if Jon allows that variant despite being Faerun), gets you in at 7.

Anyhow, asking for a 'less feat requirement' is sucky, because Improved Unarmed Strike is the worst one thematically for Master of Nine...and that's the one you get by level 1 due to monksage.

[Dracos]

I disagree on a few reads of things.

Level 7 is the expected, based on the skill reqs.  If it was higher, they'd be higher, not the number of feats or manuevers.  The example Master of nine is a level 7 human swordsage/3 master of nine.  It is almost valid (It shouldn't be wearing armor), using the monk version of swordsage and placing every feat toward it.  I feel this backs again the expected level being 7, but its also pretty standard wizards crapola.

Warblades can't even do it without taking an extra feat, making their requirement 6 feats in (and of course, a manuver in every school they have).  Ouch.  If your math is right, then warblades can get in by right after their last bonus feat, but again, I'm just generally booing PRCs that have such stringent entry reqs that the entire lead up is built around them.

Martial study or martial stance or other martial feats would be a way better entry point given its all about lots of manuevers.  They'd be totally more cool than blindfight or dodge.

The basic is I'd like to get into it, but I don't want to wrap my entire character around the PRC.  I'd sooner ignore it was there.  If you hadn't suggested the monksage bit, I really would've gone on ignoring that it was there, and that was before I even noticed it also had manuever requirements.  Your logic with grabbing swashbuckler is clever and giving up a d6 there of sneak attack would probably help me avoid being too far above in damage dealing from the party, though that's really 'yet another twink' (I become a level back in sneak attack, but its every other level anyway.  I get higher fort and another feat for it).  And you're right, I make it harder by selecting two feats that are unrelated...other than that they let me hit at all and have a chance to do damage at all when not sneak attacking (1d3+3 versus 1d3-2 against the numerous enemies that don't let it).  I make it even harder by playing a halfling.  But again, I'd rather play my character concept more than I'd play a master of nine.  If push comes to shove, I'll just stay straight both.

I'll navigate through more later, but going through C Adv and C Warr and the first 31 pages of the Crystal Keep Prestige list, nothing is on level with Master of Nine's requirements.  Most cap out at only 4 feats and a few skills (and when they do, they don't require any spell or special class feature listings).  The average 5 or 10 level PrC takes 2-3 feats, and 10 skill points.  My problem isn't spending some buy in (Hey, all PRCs have it), but that the buy in is excessive for a 5 level PrC and is thematically related around a master monk rather than anything the PrC actually does (It's more a midstep between Warblade and Swordsage).  It's possible they errata'd to fix it, but we'll never know, and their forums seem to say no, that it's just the furthest example of 'thematic' buy that exists in 3.5.  That I can do some advanced twinkery to get around it doesn't actually make it more pleasant especially as I feel like I'm already doing a sickening amount.

[Jon]

Still need to look at it. I'd probably be willing to swap out some monk-directed feats for more generic ones, though.

[Dracos]

heh, edited my post. ;P

Anyhow, no rush Jon.  I did ask that as long term type.

[Merc]

Thoughts on reworking Master of Nine prerequesites:

Skills: 10 ranks in four key discipline skills.
Feats: Adaptive Style, Improved Initiative, Sudden Recovery, and One tactical feat that requires maneuvers.
Martial Maneuvers: Must know at least one maneuver from six different disciplines.

Feels more thematic, and represents a master of 9 who starts by mastering one school (by gaining a tactical feat from that school). Since one of the Mo9 class abilities is based around counters (level 4), having a defensive type feat might be wise, so Dodge or Vital Recovery could be better than Sudden Recovery. The main idea is to remove Blind-Fight (which really doesn't have to do much with most of the maneuver schools) and Improved Unarmed Strike (right, so how many people are going to -use- this if they're not a monk or monksage? Almost none, which makes it a very odd requirement).

[Jon]

Late-breaking house rule! Psionic classes are allowed, including the ones in Complete Psionics.

[Dracos]

I'd still encourage 3 feats rather than four, especially given tactical feats are complex and have never been a prereq for any PrC.  The Skill ranks should be how the class level is limited (7 presently, raise if Jon wants higher, I hope not.  I so rarely get to play PrCs :P)>

[Jon]

Oh, one more thing. Artificer scrolls are stated to be neither divine nor arcane, and it's not entirely clear what that's meant to mean, but general wisdom has it that this means divine casters and arcane casters can't use them without UMD checks. This is clearly annoying. Therefore, I rule that artificer-crafted scrolls are sufficiently weird that, while other casters can cast from them just fine, they cannot use them to add spells to their repertoire permanently. No cheap scrolls for the spellbook, sorry.

[Merc]

Edit: I blame shenanigans on Drac!