[Haruhi] Sympathy

[Arakawa]

*slaps forehead* I guess my lesson is that "brutal" doesn't need to be "heavily display assumptions made about the premise and then show how it doesn't live up to them". Still, I hope its helpful for you to know exactly what sorts of assumptions I'd formed based on reading the actual fic and... yeah, more or less completely ignoring any commentary you or the other C&Cers made previously on it.

So, inferring from the commentary posted after I wrote that rant, it seems this is in essence a Kyon~ism fic. (Putting the 'sympathy' setup aside for a second.) Haruhi is deputized by Kyon to form a Brigade, which explains how she can simultaneously be so callous while feeling like she's at the mercy of the events. If we start in Kyon~ism and work forward, then yeah, it makes more sense.

So, in that sense, Mikuru doesn't resist because it's a show put on for Kyon's benefit? See, in that case Mikuru's actions make sense, but Haruhi's... it still makes her more despicable than original!Haruhi to be aware that what she's doing is wrong and do it anyways.

I can plausibly see an actual Year1!Haruhi (minus the powers) being manipulated by the organizations to put on a show for warper!Kyon's benefit... and then finding out just how many flaws she has and how she was playing straight into the scenario. That's very clearly not the sort of thing you intend to write, though. EDIT: wait, or is it?

Now I have somewhat greater appreciation for what you seem to be trying to do. It's just that things do seem to have meandered on the way there. Again: the obvious thing to point out is that a Haruhi with the level of self-awareness she displays here, would have to act differently in order to not come across as mostly pathetic.

The only way I see her playing into the scenario while retaining my sympathy is if she eases into the role of terrorizing Mikuru gradually, as her attempts to interest Kyon (which she seems to have an impulse to do) get more and more desperate. EDIT: and I mean, even that is really wrong on some level, since it's difficult to imagine her being that desperate for Kyon's attention.

Sorry if this isn't quite the quality of feedback you were expecting :-(

[Brian]

Arakawa, I'm sorry; your response was very frustrating to me.  There's a difference between 'brutal honesty' and 'and also be mean for kicks' -- and in my mind....  Or maybe the one goes into the other for you; I have to admit, much of your commentary felt significantly more critical than constructive, and there were quite a few places where you just said I did something bad -- and offered no suggestions.  Sorry; that frustrated me.  That and the amazing chasm that represents our cognitive disconnect here....  Just, wow.

The practical upshot: I now know to never use anything implying 'feel free to be harsh/critical' when asking you for advice again (or commenting anywhere you can reply).

Now moving on to this second chapter. Verdict: I think with the standards you've set for a sympathetic narrator it's going to be impossible to justify the blackmail scene, even if Mikuru does go along (her submissiveness is a divergence, correct?); I guess it's a great writing exercise to frustrate yourself with, but it makes for awful reading.

Not tryimg to make the event sympathetic; just the character.

And yes, Mikuri is divergent.  After all, what does she care about Haruhi, a typical (if eccentric) highschooler?  (This same holds true for the others, naturally.)

If I were writing this, I'd be tempted to diverge by letting Mikuru undress herself. (Reason why this comes to my mind: I had a vague genderflip fic idea kicking around where only one character is flipped, namely Kyon-->Kyonko. Kyonko is much more assertive about curbing some of Haruhi's excesses, not by saying "no", but by suggesting "yes, but it would be even better for everyone if...". Yes, it's a stupid idea right now, but it should give you the idea of the basic dynamic by which some of the more squicky interactions could be avoided.

Yes, see -- as I've stated elsewhere, sympathy is a two way street.  At the same time the story is being told from Haruhi's PoV, not Kyon's. 

Spoiler: ShowHide

Having someone step up here comes across (to me) as saying, "the world would be flat out better if Kyon were the reality warper," which may have been Kyon's initial expectation, but this story aims to deconstruct that (while also playing with Kyoniism).

It might be even better if Sympathy!Kyon also figures out some constructive way to improve on his character's flaws, making the fic much less of a waste of air.)

Eh ... heh.  waste of air

Again: your idea of sympathy seems to be that everything everyone does has a perfectly good reason, even as Novel 1 plays out almost exactly as before (thus far in your fic). You seem to be trying to write sympathetic characters, who completely fail to undertake sympathetic actions. And who are thus even less sympathetic than they were previously. Original Year1!Haruhi was an opaque entity who was oblivious to the existence of ordinary humans as human beings, and her actions are perfectly justified by the fact that she failed to give a damn about anyone's feelings. That was her primary flaw.

So, to summarize your explanation: The major flaw of chapter two is that it's a logical progression of chapter one/the prologue.

I don't see Haruhi as being oblivious to other people's feelings -- just indifferent.  Okay, nevermind.

I have a flawed idea of what sympathy is, and you're not the first person to criticize me so.  Let's close this discussion. -_-

This Haruhi does all of the same horrible things, but in addition we get to listen to her whiny rationalizations ("but Kyon could've stopped me! but Mikuru doesn't resist when I molest her! etc etc").

This keeps circling around to the fact that I have to do damage to the presentation of Haruhi's character (as I set it out in chapter one) to satisfy you -- effectively, though you don't come out and say it, the chapter one presentation of Haruhi that you tolerate can't be carried into chapter two.  I have to rewrite the entire story to make this work.

This fic would be so much better if this were an avenue for Kyon and Haruhi to step into each other's shoes and realize that there were obvious things each could have done differently. Not that there were perfect inevitable reasons as to why Haruhi needed to do the blackmail scenario, which lends the whole thing a squicky Greek tragedy flavor where the Gods have decreed Oedipus to do a bunch of awful stuff and there was no way to avert it. If you're going for that effect -- that Novel 1 was inevitable and not just a product of character flaws that might not have existed -- at least make the horror intentional.

frustrated

This fic would be better if it were EXACTLY WHAT I PLANNED ON IT BEING?

Ugh.  No, events need to map to--

Bah.  Nevermind.

It's like... you know one of those arguments where each person refuses to admit the other was wrong? Your fic is like that, even with the swap. They're incredibly tedious to listen to. If you want that dynamic, I'd say have sympathetic-Haruhi change something significant first, then be unconsciously shocked by the idea that she might have done things wrong the first time around, and then put up some (ultimately futile) resistance to admitting even more of her faults.

*sigh*  This really just can't fit into my original plans.

Again, you say the fic is going to diverge. I'd say now (molesting Mikuru) would be a good point for it to do so.

It ... HAS diverged.  Just certain events would have been in keeping.

Canon!Kyon also does things which are difficult to sympathize with e.g. physical violence in 'Sigh'. These make him more difficult to sympathize with, and create extra work for the reader.

...YMMV, Sir.  I was more annoyed that Kyon didn't do anything UNTIL THAT POINT.  Was he going too far?  Possibly.  But I don't feel he was wrong, and in no way did his desire to protect someone else make him unsympathetic to me.  (In fact, everyone else I know regarded that as a moment for HARUHI to be unsympathetic, so this is ... bordering on mind-boggling, actually.)  I begin to see why we're utterly failing to communicate, however.

In general, Mikuru and Yuki's behavior suggests that they know what happened, while Koizumi apparently doesn't. You even have the option of Mikuru knowing that this Haruhi is much more Kyon-like and can be pushed to accommodate Mikuru's point of view a little more, thus driving the divergence. That option would require you to figure out what Mikuru looks like when she's a shade more confident about the situation.

It feels like the story you're commenting on isn't the one I wrote.  You know what?  Here's the summary of what I planned to write:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Kyon gets Haruhi's powers.
Redo melancholy, only Haruhi doesn't have the awesome fringe benefits of having her powers, and Kyon does; try to make Haruhi sympathetic.
Introduce the esper, time traveler, and alien, but subtly introduce the idea that since Haruhi doesn't have the powers, she's really not going to be treated the same way at all.
Mikuru: Manipulative, doesn't really care about Haruhi, doesn't mind being blunt and explaining to Haruhi that the whole 'molestation' angle makes her job (manipulating Kyon, if required) easier.  The subtext here is that this actually ultimately is Mikuru manipulating Haruhi to get closer to Kyon.
Koizumi: He's linked to Kyon instead of Haruhi.  Instead of saying that 'Kyon is the better reality warper', explain that Kyon is more stable, but because he's also generally placid, there's a lot of danger in letting Haruhi get him too worked up about crazy stuff.  Flat-out rejects Haruhi when he tells her he's an esper, and explains why.
Yuki: Pretty much exactly like in canon, except Haruhi doesn't take her to the library or actually try and befriend Nagato, once she finds out that Yuki's not going to be 'fun', and seems more interested in Kyon.
Leading to Haruhi getting frustrated, Kyon not believing her 'wild stories', but 'willing to play along for the club'.
Ryouko makes her appearance and offers to help Haruhi 'make things more interesting'.  Haruhi accepts at first, provided Ryouko's changes are pretty subtle, but it never works out the way Haruhi wants -- she gives up on the plan and decides not to work with Ryouko as she keeps aiming for more disruptive things.  Ryouko decides to engage her, "Then I'll just kill you," plan, only Haruhi never got close to Yuki, so Yuki doesn't come to her rescue.
Kyon's failsafe kicks in and he gets awoken to all of his memories from that point in the prologue, saves Haruhi, and then hates himself for letting everything get to that point over such a petty motivation.
They talk things out.

That's incredibly rough, but that's the gist of the idea I had when this started.

I would also suggest rethinking Koizumi. The guy opening his mouth and spouting something about video games was, to me, slightly confusing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the original character, and I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with the swap. Maybe the espers are the only faction that has been reset due to their link to Haruhi?? (Maybe Koizumi and Kyon are having traits swapped too, as a sort of bonus?????) I don't know.

See above, re: you thinking I was writing a totally different (and to me utterly uninteresting) fic.  You're welcome to write those ideas, but I don't see most of them having anything to do with the story I was trying to tell.  Sorry, your suggestions here all discard everything I have planned, and are as such unworkable.

There, since you've invited me to be brutal, I can give my slightly-exaggerated honest opinion on this. (Whereas before I was just hoping you might work it out for yourself.) This fic doesn't piss me off, so much as fails to engage my interest. I don't have very much... sympathy for the specific target you seem to be trying to hit with it, and I think you should be aiming a little more to the right. Hope that didn't hurt too much, burn salve is on the second shelf from the top :-)

exaggerated!=honest

I think I will write more of the story, but I'll ask you not to comment on this one any further; I wanted help to improve my story, not a very long message telling me I shouldn't write it/need to start entirely over from the ground up.  If that's what it takes and others agree, well, I can abandon this project -- but I rather get the impression from everyone else that the story is more salvagable than that.  You are, of course, free to write your own take on it (and likewise, I have no interest in commenting on that take).

You've written interesting characters, and then proceeded to make them do things that are largely *in-character* for the original Kyon and Haruhi, but vehemently *out-of-character* for the adjusted ones.

If I've completely misconstrued what you're trying to do here, that fact in and of itself should be valuable feedback as well, actually.

I've mentioned the same.

I'm seriously debating even bothering continuing writing this one, given how upsetting it is to me that absolutely nothing of what I intended got across.

No.  I think I can continue, but honestly....  I can't give your commentary any weight, because I don't feel you understand what I was trying well enough to offer an informed opinion -- beyond the fact that you don't want to read the story I'm trying to write (if I read between the lines correctly).  An important lesson was learned here, for me.  I'm really unhappy that it worked out this way -- and I think I'll avoid commenting on your Haruhi/Dr. Who fic because I don't trust myself to be equally unkind in return.

incredibly frustrated

[Muphrid]

I know there's been a bit of hullabaloo here.  Let me comment on this:

Here's the summary of what I planned to write:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Kyon gets Haruhi's powers.
Redo melancholy, only Haruhi doesn't have the awesome fringe benefits of having her powers, and Kyon does; try to make Haruhi sympathetic.
Introduce the esper, time traveler, and alien, but subtly introduce the idea that since Haruhi doesn't have the powers, she's really not going to be treated the same way at all.
Mikuru: Manipulative, doesn't really care about Haruhi, doesn't mind being blunt and explaining to Haruhi that the whole 'molestation' angle makes her job (manipulating Kyon, if required) easier.  The subtext here is that this actually ultimately is Mikuru manipulating Haruhi to get closer to Kyon.
Koizumi: He's linked to Kyon instead of Haruhi.  Instead of saying that 'Kyon is the better reality warper', explain that Kyon is more stable, but because he's also generally placid, there's a lot of danger in letting Haruhi get him too worked up about crazy stuff.  Flat-out rejects Haruhi when he tells her he's an esper, and explains why.
Yuki: Pretty much exactly like in canon, except Haruhi doesn't take her to the library or actually try and befriend Nagato, once she finds out that Yuki's not going to be 'fun', and seems more interested in Kyon.
Leading to Haruhi getting frustrated, Kyon not believing her 'wild stories', but 'willing to play along for the club'.
Ryouko makes her appearance and offers to help Haruhi 'make things more interesting'.  Haruhi accepts at first, provided Ryouko's changes are pretty subtle, but it never works out the way Haruhi wants -- she gives up on the plan and decides not to work with Ryouko as she keeps aiming for more disruptive things.  Ryouko decides to engage her, "Then I'll just kill you," plan, only Haruhi never got close to Yuki, so Yuki doesn't come to her rescue.
Kyon's failsafe kicks in and he gets awoken to all of his memories from that point in the prologue, saves Haruhi, and then hates himself for letting everything get to that point over such a petty motivation.
They talk things out.

That's incredibly rough, but that's the gist of the idea I had when this started.

I tend to be cautious about reading outlines and thus losing the perspective an average reader would have, but, I did want to comment on this.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I generally think this outline makes sense.  The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point?  This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has.  She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different.  I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too.  It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi?  Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late?  That sort of thing, really.

I think what bugs me about this second chapter is that things seem to run together a bit.  There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue.  Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina.  She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish.  This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind.  Is it just to give the brigade a cute character?  Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations?  I think there's tremendous potential there to paint Haruhi sympathetically, to give her an ultimately reasonable goal, even if she goes about it in an unreasonable way, and for her to be denied her real objective of emotional or intellectual satisfaction even while she outwardly seems to get what she wants.  I'm not sure if that's a valid criticism versus a personal preference, though, so take it with a hefty grain of salt.  Like I said, I think the basic framework of this story is reasonable.

[sarsaparilla]

There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue.  Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina.  She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish.  This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind.  Is it just to give the brigade a cute character?  Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations?

This would be the next concern on my list as well. I am avoiding the spoilers at this point, hoping to be able to provide an 'uninformed' view as the story progresses.

[Arakawa]

My conclusion for the moment: Brian seems to know what he's doing, I seem to have trouble understanding it, and in terms of my lack of sympathy for the fic, I should have stuck with my initial attitude of "don't barge in where I can't even find my way around the author's intent, instead wait for the finished product and see if I can understand that".

By the same principle, I understand why Brian wants to ignore my own C&C and writing at the moment; Brian, I get the sense you were turned off even earlier during our discussion on 'Anywhere in this World', for reasons which I find perfectly understandable (you were bewildered by my thought process and you were unlikely to enjoy wasting your time on a fic which might prove similarly bewildering). Is my impression of that correct?

Withdrawing from further commentary on "Sympathy", as requested. Disappointed with myself that I was unable to contribute to this process constructively :-( In general, it's unnecessary for Brian to avoid issuing calls for harsh criticism; I'll make sure not to answer invitations for being brutal in my commentary in future, from anyone, since I now know that what I'm capable of in that regard is unlikely to be helpful to the other person.

My apologies to everyone whose time was wasted by having to read / participate in / otherwise deal with my lack of tact.

[Brian]

Urg.  Arakawa, I have to apologize; I just get incredibly frustrated when it feels like I've failed to communicate something correctly.  I calmed down on the drive in to work, and my reaction was too harsh, in retrospect.  Sorry; I had this same thing happen with Henry Cobb, of all people--  That was what prompted the rewrite of Later. >_<

By the same principle, I understand why Brian wants to ignore my own C&C and writing at the moment; Brian, I get the sense you were turned off even earlier during our discussion on 'Anywhere in this World', for reasons which I find perfectly understandable (you were bewildered by my thought process and you were unlikely to enjoy wasting your time on a fic which might prove similarly bewildering). Is my impression of that correct?

Somewhat.  I also confess to being a Kyon fanboy, so the idea of reading a fic where he not only isn't around, but probably won't be is dramatically lessened; those are both actually signifcant factors for my reluctance.  Beyond that, while "Dr. Haruhi" is a likable (enough) and interesting character, she doesn't feel like she has much of anything to do with ... well ... Haruhi.  Maybe you got the same feeling from her in NG+.  Bitter irony.

Withdrawing from further commentary on "Sympathy", as requested. Disappointed with myself that I was unable to contribute to this process constructively :-( In general, it's unnecessary for Brian to avoid issuing calls for harsh criticism; I'll make sure not to answer invitations for being brutal in my commentary in future, from anyone, since I now know that what I'm capable of in that regard is unlikely to be helpful to the other person.

Again, my reaction to the almost-on-target commentary intent frustrated me enough to overstate my reaction (a not unfamiliar site around here, tragically -_-).  Even then, enough of it was valid that you shouldn't doubt yourself or ability; we can place this squarely on me.

Looking back, some of what you wrote can be applied to the story I'm writing, and much of it is still very valid with regards to what's gone before, especially the prologue.  I think I need to fix that before I can move on, but I have a more solid picture of where that needs to be picked up.

*slaps forehead* I guess my lesson is that "brutal" doesn't need to be "heavily display assumptions made about the premise and then show how it doesn't live up to them". Still, I hope its helpful for you to know exactly what sorts of assumptions I'd formed based on reading the actual fic and... yeah, more or less completely ignoring any commentary you or the other C&Cers made previously on it.

And once again, I should have been clearer (and probably take an extra thirty minutes to consider my responses; just because I'm almost always connected...).  You shouldn't have to read all the other commentary (though, admittedly, the ability to do so is one of the reasons for using a forum) and still have your opinions have weight.  Really, the burden is on me for not revising the prologue first. >_<

So, inferring from the commentary posted after I wrote that rant, it seems this is in essence a Kyon~ism fic. (Putting the 'sympathy' setup aside for a second.) Haruhi is deputized by Kyon to form a Brigade, which explains how she can simultaneously be so callous while feeling like she's at the mercy of the events. If we start in Kyon~ism and work forward, then yeah, it makes more sense.

Mostly -- however, there's no deputizing.  Haruhi is still Haruhi, even with the Kyoniism take.  Hmm, debating ... yeah,
I'd better:

Spoiler: ShowHide

  She just doesn't get a supernatural bonus to her 'awesome' pool anymore; my main goal is actually to show that it's a lot harder for her to be Haruhi without that bonus.  Kyon gets it -- and does nothing with it (which makes him less sympathetic to the readers, since they know the situation in the prologue, which no one in the story does.

So, in that sense, Mikuru doesn't resist because it's a show put on for Kyon's benefit? See, in that case Mikuru's actions make sense, but Haruhi's... it still makes her more despicable than original!Haruhi to be aware that what she's doing is wrong and do it anyways.

Yes; you were right to surmise that I was wasting my time by endlessly revising that one scene -- or really letting myself get caught up on it so badly.  I should have aimed for something with a smoother narrative flow, or a better characterization take.  Bashing my head against that was a source of frustration, too, and you're entirely correct to have identified it as such. >_<

I can't make that sympathetic, the way Haruhi was established in chapter one.  (Fortunately, Sarsaparilla has suggested what looks like the ideal compromise at a glance; more on that later.)

I can plausibly see an actual Year1!Haruhi (minus the powers) being manipulated by the organizations to put on a show for warper!Kyon's benefit... and then finding out just how many flaws she has and how she was playing straight into the scenario. That's very clearly not the sort of thing you intend to write, though. EDIT: wait, or is it?

It would be touched on, somewhat. 

Spoiler: ShowHide

The Agency/Organization doesn't need to work hard to keep Kyon satisfied -- in fact, quite the contrary.  They only are reacting to Haruhi's presence and disruption in the first place.  Remember that Broizumi's main interest is now Kyon, not Haruhi.  Really, he needs to deal with Haruhi much the same way he did with Kyon (downplayed to minimize the creep factor, since Kyon's generally more mellow anyway).  He would probably break the masquerade because Kyon wouldn't believe her, and then by that same token, they wouldn't really want to work with her because if she had the ability to pull the thread, she probably would.

So, hooray unintentional gender-biased squick. -_-

Now I have somewhat greater appreciation for what you seem to be trying to do. It's just that things do seem to have meandered on the way there. Again: the obvious thing to point out is that a Haruhi with the level of self-awareness she displays here, would have to act differently in order to not come across as mostly pathetic.

Or horrifying; I agree with you on this entirely.

The only way I see her playing into the scenario while retaining my sympathy is if she eases into the role of terrorizing Mikuru gradually, as her attempts to interest Kyon (which she seems to have an impulse to do) get more and more desperate. EDIT: and I mean, even that is really wrong on some level, since it's difficult to imagine her being that desperate for Kyon's attention.

Sorry if this isn't quite the quality of feedback you were expecting :-(

My response was lacking in quality.  I think calling your comments off by about 361 degrees was accurate, if you think about it.  I was far too frustrated over the single degree of misaiming, when I should have been more appreciative of the fact that you were doing exactly as I had requested.  My apologies for that. -_-

Having gone through it again, I have taken a list of brief characterization notes from your commentary that I agree with, which will be useful in covering the rewrite this chapter will need.

It looks like the fundamental problem with this second chapter is that Haruhi is way too conscious of the less flattering aspects of her behavior. The canon Haruhi of the time period could be (kind of) forgiven her persistent effort to check every possible symptom of Antisocial Personality Disorder as defined by DSM-IV because she was genuinely oblivious. She didn't rationalize away any moral issues because she wasn't aware of them in the first place. This Haruhi, however, knows that she's doing something that she shouldn't, but does it anyway, which doesn't really make her more sympathetic.

Yes, this is true.  I can only make it more sympathetic by making it the symptom of some worse dysfunction or depression on her part.  I can still actually see that characterization, but I think it requires a significantly (as Arakawa says) more pathetic Haruhi than she needs to be.

I can think of two different approaches to change the situation. Either remove all second thoughts and show how she gets utterly confused and despondent when people chide her for something that she thinks is a great idea, or at least a necessary idea for the given objective; or make the story diverge faster when, instead of succeeding, Haruhi's plans consistently backfire and land her into trouble (as she doesn't have unlimited wishes to make everything work out the way she wants any more), which can also be played for sympathy if she genuinely believes that she had good intentions. I don't know what is the target of the story, but one of those two might fit.

Actually, a little bit of both would work, too.  If she's just too hurried to properly think things through, or if, maybe in her excitement....

Beyond that, there is an interesting question about the exact nature of this swap, namely, what the other SOS members know about it. If the other brigade members retained their memories there might be some unfortunate implications waiting down the road ... I think.

There were some lower priority issues as well, but I guess that we'll get a chance to return to them once you've decided how you want to proceed from here.

Alright -- understood.

While I don't know which angle you want to use, the two approaches that I mentioned could be more or less combined by playing up the woobie aspect. If you throw in a good bit of Yasumi and make her sooo genki that her feet barely touch the ground, then you can have situations where Haruhi is only able to think how fun, fun, fun everything will be once she manages to do this and that; once her actions backfire the reader can actually share the experience that from her own point of view it's Haruhi who's getting dog-kicked (but unlike Haruhi, also understand the flip side of the coin, which would, at least in my opinion, make her more sympathetic).

...exactly.  That's brilliant -- her enthusiasm makes a good veil here.  I think that makes the ideal lead-in, followed by her disappointment and confusion when it didn't play out.  I don't want to diverge until I get past ... well, the next chapter.  This is something that I'm not terribly good at portraying, but I believe much more workable than what I was trying.  An interesting challenge.

I have mixed feelings about this.  In general, stories that go through the formation of the brigade with the changes needed from a new premise don't tend to hold my attention.  That said, I think this can work.  What's important is how the character dynamics have changed for this scenario.

Look at Asahina:  ...

Nagato is basically the same, and when Haruhi mentions Kyon to her, that's enough.  Koizumi is...different.  I'm not sure how Koizumi as a video game enthusiast makes him that much more interesting to Kyon, but I can see how that archetype would put Kyon at ease more than the one we know from canon.  The downside is that it threatens to make Koizumi feel so different, but I guess that emphasizes his chameleonic nature.

They're all different, it's just degrees of obviousness at this point; they're introduced in this chapter, but it's still exploration of Haruhi's PoV and some (limited) insight into Kyon.  Actually.  I should play that up at bit more in the rewrite; there's very much a void in insight into him.

I know there's been a bit of hullabaloo here.  Let me comment on this:

[stuff]

I tend to be cautious about reading outlines and thus losing the perspective an average reader would have, but, I did want to comment on this.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I generally think this outline makes sense.  The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point?  This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has.  She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different.  I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too.  It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi?  Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late?  That sort of thing, really.

To that (very spoilery):

Spoiler: ShowHide

The masquerade will be broken by Mikuru, who is openly planning to manipulate Kyon (actually manipulating Haruhi to gravitate to Kyon by overplaying her moe weaknesses, to the point that Haruhi's leery of exploiting Mikuru because of the sympathy it generates for her).  In a contrast to Kyon telling Haruhi all of the reveals at the end over coffee, they're shorter scenes where she tells him (on consecutive days, naturally) about the latest reveal, which is a good deal of why she's frustrated by Kyon's indifference by the time Yuki rolls around.

I think what bugs me about this second chapter is that things seem to run together a bit.  There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue.  Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina.  She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish.  This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind.  Is it just to give the brigade a cute character?  Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations?  I think there's tremendous potential there to paint Haruhi sympathetically, to give her an ultimately reasonable goal, even if she goes about it in an unreasonable way, and for her to be denied her real objective of emotional or intellectual satisfaction even while she outwardly seems to get what she wants.  I'm not sure if that's a valid criticism versus a personal preference, though, so take it with a hefty grain of salt.  Like I said, I think the basic framework of this story is reasonable.

(and)

This would be the next concern on my list as well. I am avoiding the spoilers at this point, hoping to be able to provide an 'uninformed' view as the story progresses.

Yeah, I....  Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy.  I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom.  I guess I can go with that ... or, more likely, all considered, this Mikuru actually putting herself somewhere Haruhi would be more likely to find her.  That would probably work; Haruhi's first thought is for headcount, the excitement of mascot abilities kick in later, after she's already hauling Mikuru off.

Also lets me evade the 'if Haruhi was 'special' to find Mikuru, how does a 'normal' Haruhi grab her just as easily' question a bit.

Gratified to hear you think the story's worth telling, Muphrid; I may have to work at it quite a bit to get to that point, though....  >_<

Alright -- thanks for the commentary!  Unfortunately, I have no idea when I'll have a new draft of this chapter up. :x

[sarsaparilla]

Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy.  I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom.

In canon, the given, overt reason for Haruhi's abduction of Mikuru was that Haruhi was a particular kind of genre-savvy, and had very specific ideas about the required members for a 'mysterious' club. When it comes to covert reasons ... I've always wondered how conscious Haruhi is of her own motives, but I wouldn't preclude the idea that -- at least on some level -- Haruhi was doing what she thought Kyon would want her to do, as in, she was afraid of Kyon not finding the new club interesting enough to stay as a member, so she did things that she believed would make Kyon more inclined to stay. Some times when Haruhi harasses Mikuru she's very obviously telling Kyon "You'd like to do this yourself, wouldn't you?" and in Charmed at First Sight Lover she actually says it out loud.

[Brian]

Hmm, that's an interesting observation.

I'd never considered that Haruhi might actually think Kyon wants her to behave that way--  I thought she was just being ... kinda mean and maybe jealous over the attention Kyon gave her -- really, at least on some level rubbing his nose in the fact that he couldn't/wouldn't get away with it himself (and at the same time maybe hint to him that if he were a little braver he might get away with it with Haruhi).  Actually, just 'interesting' is an understatement on this one. o_o

I can't honestly say I can't see elements of both being potentially valid, but I like your interpretation a bit more....  That ties in quite well to Haruhi getting excited about it, but I think the approach of Mikuru putting herself in Haruhi's path will also work.  I think I can actually use all of that without it being too busy, and those differences let it stand out from being yet-more-rehash as well.

Excellent; thanks again for the commentary.

[thepanda]

Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy.  I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom.

In canon, the given, overt reason for Haruhi's abduction of Mikuru was that Haruhi was a particular kind of genre-savvy, and had very specific ideas about the required members for a 'mysterious' club. When it comes to covert reasons ... I've always wondered how conscious Haruhi is of her own motives, but I wouldn't preclude the idea that -- at least on some level -- Haruhi was doing what she thought Kyon would want her to do, as in, she was afraid of Kyon not finding the new club interesting enough to stay as a member, so she did things that she believed would make Kyon more inclined to stay. Some times when Haruhi harasses Mikuru she's very obviously telling Kyon "You'd like to do this yourself, wouldn't you?" and in Charmed at First Sight Lover she actually says it out loud.

I thought Haruhi might have had a bit of a girl crush, and since Mikuru doesn't exactly fight back took it to mean she liked it.

[Brian]

urg

Well, that's another possibility, one reinforced quite a bit Haruhi's commentary in Sigh.  But that's a disrespectful, covetous sort of crush; more of a 'I like her, so no one else can have her' thing.  I ... actually can't think of much of a positive spin to that one.

[Halbarad]

Blargh, behind the curve this time. Been lazy about doing C&C lately, maybe this will get me back into shape.

On the recent commentary about Mikuru: While the thought that Haruhi is hunting for hooks (beyond herself) to try to keep Kyon in the club might be interesting, trying to turn this into a sympathetic moment may actually do more harm than good. No one is perfectly sympathetic all the time, and the events around Mikuru's press-ganging are some of Haruhi's worst around that time. Spinning it so that she catches on just how badly she's crossed lines is about the most I'd try here; to me, anything more and you risk overdoing it and turning Haruhi into a caricature, where everything she does -is- actually justified. No one is sympathetic all the time, and you're already setting Mikuru up to be a pitfall for her, so making a terrible miscalculation with her to begin with is actually decent setup on its own.

And for Haruhi acting vicariously for Kyon in doing things with/to Mikuru that he'd like to? Canonically I don't think she gives enough consideration to other people's desires or feelings for that (especially this early in the game), and That Way Lies Squick in any kind of Kyoniism setup, such as we have here.

To be honest, I think Haruhi's motives here probably -are- rather creepy to some extent; Panda's hit on a major aspect of it. She states flat-out that she's interested in the unusual whether male or female, which is usually played into her being open to the idea of other girls at least, and given Mikuru's appearance and nature it's likely that she did something to attract that interest even more - probably when Haruhi was reviewing clubs and she visited the calligraphy club. Showing this might require revising the first chapter, though, to give Mikuru a minor intro for the event that caught Haruhi's interest.

The other half of the motive for grabbing Mikuru probably lies in Sigh, which I can understand trying to avoid or downplay as much as possible - seeing Mikuru as a living doll for her to play dress-up with. I understand that with the attempt to give Haruhi a sympathetic portrayal here you can't really get into that, but I suspect that it's a large part of the reason for getting Mikuru in the club in canon - one that twists when Kyon starts showing too much interest in Mikuru.

As far as the Brigade members having less interest in Haruhi-as-normal than they did in Kyon, the difference here I think is that they'd need her in on the masquerade to try to rein her in. Kyon in either incarnation is pretty inert by himself; Haruhi is going to be the motive force behind things happening, no matter what - whether she's causing things to happen herself or inciting reactions from Kyon that cause things to happen. The Brigade itself would never have formed if not for her, regardless of who the reality warper is; Kyon just doesn't have the motivation to set things up himself, nor does he get the exposure to the others that Haruhi gets in order to get the right people into it.

Showing Haruhi directly that the paranormal really does exist and is right there next to her might be a way of taking her manic edge off, so she's not as likely to do the really wild and crazy stuff that would set Kyon off - and it'd be easy enough to presume that warper!Kyon is just as likely to blow off Haruhi's claims as warper!Haruhi did with canon!Kyon. Once that's done, I could actually see the others (definitely Koizumi, and possibly Yuki) actually trying to engineer weird events to keep Haruhi's attention away from Kyon as much as possible, complicated when Kyon starts distracting her out of them directly.

Anyway, on to the direct C&C!

like she were listening to something I couldn't hear

were -> was. Unless Haruhi found more than one of her.

I didn't have to use any chlorophorm

chlorophorm -> chloroform

I want to use Mikuru-chan's charms to draw in more interesting people.  I'll need to be careful to avoid the wrong crowd paying too much attention, but I figure I can use the guy who sits behind me as the barometer for that.  When he gets too interested, it's too far, right?
Something about that...
It feels right that I should keep him from getting too interested in her -- or Yuki.  I'm ... not sure why I think that, though.  I guess it's because he's so boring and average, if I'm careless, he'll sink into the same boring relationships as everyone else?

This... is probably a bit too direct. I'd think she'd be less concerned about Kyon being in a boring relationship; it's showing that she cares about him too much, really, if she's worried about him getting pulled into something 'less than worthy'. She'd likely justify it as something to inconvenience her, although some mental fumbling for the justification would show that that's certainly not all there is to it, and that she may be taking consideration for things outside herself.

Having her start to show her character growth this early is definitely a way to make her more sympathetic, but she's still coming out of a phase of her life where she basically didn't care a bit what other people thought - her own opinion was the only one that mattered. Snapping her out of that is good, but it's not going to happen fast, and she'll try to revert back to it given the chance.

(Sorry, I'm commenting as I read, so sometimes I miss things when I break in the middle of a scene.) I do see that you address some of this directly after that point, but I think a part of it's still there - she's focusing on people outside herself too much. I can still see her showing that concern as an afterthought ('yeah, it'll be good for them too') but I suspect she'd still fall into the pattern of putting her own desires and concerns first.

that won't work if I don't know that the latest and greatest is

that -> what

Anyway....  I'd like to try and reassure Mikuru-chan, too, but that's impossible without making myself look less confident as a leader -- and that's unacceptable.

This may be getting into 'too sympathetic' territory again. If she's already suspecting something's fishy about Mikuru, I'm not so sure she'd leap that quickly to wanting to reassure her - and after Kyon's 'rescue' I'm not sure she'd jump to that conclusion at all, if she's irritated at him for it. I understand that you don't want to leap too quickly to Haruhi being jealous, since if she is she avoids the bunny suits, but she could start in on that here and use the bunny suits as a 'final test' of sorts, to see what Mikuru and Kyon do with it.

the way she sounds so distraight

distraight -> distraught. Could also use 'distrait' if you want to be archaic. =P

I know I've pushed the limits in things before

in things -> on things

Damnit

Probably want either 'damn it' or 'dammit'. Don't usually see this run together with both words spelled correctly.

without my oponents

oponents -> opponents

---

Overall, I think the biggest issue is the one I've hit a couple of times - trying to make Haruhi a little too sensitive to others around her when that's really not who she'd be at this point. She's still starting off as someone remarkably self-centered, although the fact that she's no longer the Ace (and that role has been filled by someone else close to her) is going to get rid of the armor she had canonically that let her stay that way for a long time - but that said, her consideration at this point will still be for herself first and other people second.

She can still be selfish and sympathetic, I think; the essence is that she's basically given up on other people since she's been disappointed so many times, and Kyon is just starting to break through that and give her a bit of hope in 'normal' humans again. It's only a start, though, and she's still going to tend to fall back on old patterns without a good reason otherwise - and I suspect Mikuru will cause that to come out in spades, since (at least on the surface) she seems to embody all the worst aspects of normal humans to Haruhi. She's weak-willed, she plays into all the stereotypical damsel-in-distress tropes, and she seems to have absolutely nothing other than her looks to make her stand out from the crowd. The most positive spin I can honestly see Haruhi giving her is attempting to mold her into something more interesting than what she is now, since she's so generally featureless personality-wise (whee moeblob), but I suspect this will again be an afterthought - Haruhi's first reaction is going to be irritation.

[Brian]

Thanks for the comments, Hal -- (for the benefit of everyone else, we discussed it in IRC :p).

I agree with what you said, though most of it echos what's been mentioned before.  I think I have a clear idea of where I want to go with this one, now.   As with what the others have offered, this is very helpful; I feel a bit bad that I think I've generated more commentary than content. >_<

...will try and get my systems back online to where I can write again this week. :x

[Brian]

Spoiler: ShowHide

I generally think this outline makes sense.  The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point?  This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has.  She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different.  I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too.  It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi?  Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late?  That sort of thing, really.

Missed this:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Yeah, was going to go with the 'seconds too late' bit there.  I don't want it to be 'Nagato doesn't care' as much as 'If she had cared a little more...'.  I'll have to handle that one carefully, of course. -_-

[Muphrid]

Then I think ultimately this is going to work out.  The story may just need a bit more time to percolate.  The second chapter right now reminds me a lot of when I struggle at writing, too, honestly.  When motivations and thought processes are jumbled together in your mind in a soup that stubbornly refuses to clear, it's so much easier just to get the actions you see happening on the page because it's something and it might make things fall into place?

Well, that's kind of what I thought, anyway, when you said you'd had some trouble with this.

[JonBob]

So, knowing myself (being a completionist) I really shouldn't have started this but since I'm here....

Really not sure what to say about this. I think the characters are just dissonant from my mental image of them, which until the story works itself out won't go away.

Kyon used to humor Haruhi from a position of weakness and a little interest/affection; here he's humoring her (and that's it) from a position of strength.

Mikuru more timid around Haruhi, but she didn't have a huge personality change around Kyon; here she's actively manipulative.

Yuki's about the same, as is Koizumi who in this case is a yes-man to Kyon. What's interesting about that is potentially it'll grate less on Kyon, giving them a better relationship and more possibilities to do some Kyon/Koizumi shipping.

The most noticeable difference in Haruhi is her lack of complete confidence. She still has a lot, but it's not the force of nature it was before.

Waiting on more plot before commenting on that.

And... that's about it for my thoughts. Got nuttin' else.