[Haruhi] Sympathy

[Brian]

I get the pity.  It's just that, maybe it's Haruhi's percpetions or maybe it's the text itself, but Asahina comes off hostile or sneaky when she's not pitying Haruhi.  For example:

[stuff]

To me, these lines paint the picture of a manipulative person who dismisses Haruhi because the latter can't see the truth that's in front of her face.  I definitely like the moment where Haruhi is sickened by just how jarring Asahina's act of being cute is compared to the base of her personality, but going back to the original question (why Asahina bothers to tell Haruhi anything), I guess a feeling of it not doing any harm because Haruhi won't believe is fine.  That is what she says, and I got caught up looking for a more complicated answer.  That said, I do like the idea of Asahina pitying Haruhi and, perhaps, genuinely wanting to support her in what ways she can.  It's just that those moments are somewhat spaced out, I guess.

Okay--  I'll reign Mikuru's manipulativeness in a little bit.  Or at least, her overt disdain/contempt as compared to her, "You really don't understand what you're doing wrong?  That's so sad..." tone.  It needs to be enough that Haruhi feels justified (to the reader) in snapping at Mikuru later--  So she can't be too supportive.

Yeah, Haruhi knew Asahina wasn't totally genuine before this chapter.  I was just wondering, would Haruhi really take that?  She suspected before and she knows now that Asahina is not what she thinks, is manipulative and may even have more power over Kyon and than Haruhi herself thanks to this ruse, but then I saw she went into the clumsiness bit, and it was her way of paying Asahina back, of getting revenge in a small way or trying to reclaim power--that's what I meant, is that I thought Haruhi would fight back and she did, just on her own time and and in her own way.

Okay.  I think the revisions I have in mind to keep Mikuru a bit more consistent should help with that a little--  Then I can focus on Haruhi being off balance until she loses her temper and play those aspects up a bit.

[Muphrid]

Okay--  I'll reign Mikuru's manipulativeness in a little bit.  Or at least, her overt disdain/contempt as compared to her, "You really don't understand what you're doing wrong?  That's so sad..." tone.  It needs to be enough that Haruhi feels justified (to the reader) in snapping at Mikuru later--  So she can't be too supportive.

Yeah, I think I see what you're doing and that there's necessarily a lot of nuance involved.  I don't know if this is an angle you'd want to pursue, but because Asahina can pretend and act here, it could be Haruhi would interpret any genuine sadness and pity as just being part of the act, as demeaning her.  Again, not sure if that's something you'd want to do, but just a thought.

[Brian]

Maybe.  I've got some minor changes that I think tweak the scene appropriately; if they don't work out when I post the revision tonight, I'll take another crack at it. :)

I feel a bit bad for both you and Arakawa that you're offering suggestions, and I'm mostly dismissing them. >_>;;

It's not because they're bad suggestions (from either of you), as much as I'm so sensitive to this coming across wrong I've already got multiple 'fixes' in mind for any scenes that fall short in advance. -_-

Hope for the best!  ...but plan for what actually happens most of the time.  >_<

[Arakawa]

I feel a bit bad for both you and Arakawa that you're offering suggestions, and I'm mostly dismissing them. >_>;;

It's not because they're bad suggestions (from either of you), as much as I'm so sensitive to this coming across wrong I've already got multiple 'fixes' in mind for any scenes that fall short in advance. -_-

From my perspective, giving feedback and having it dismissed because you know what you're doing, is by far preferable to giving the kind of feedback that causes you to consider dropping the story >_<

Besides which, there is this constant gap in style and outlook between my own writing and others' which I can't quite bridge. For instance, I probably tend to overcomplicate things (*looks over my own half-finished outlines for various fics*) and I'm unsurprised that you went with a fix for "mostly nonplussed" which is simpler than any of my suggestions -- and, incidentally, it fixes things just fine.

[sarsaparilla]

I'm sorry for the late feedback, but I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm not sure what I should say, or even if I shouldn't say anything at all. My problem is that the latest chapter made me feel apprehensive. I couldn't figure out the reason for some time until I realized that I'm afraid that this fiction might be heading to the same direction as AAG. Specifically, the thing that made me worry was that while I find the moeness of the canon Asahina somewhere between barely tolerable and annoying, this Asahina here I find outright unlikeable. Having such a character pity Haruhi suggests that Asahina is supposed to be seen as a character that is more 'correct' or likeable than Haruhi, which makes me fear the possibility that instead of sympathy the goal of the story might be to break Haruhi and beat her into submission. I haven't read the outline and don't know whether I'm imagining things. Once again, I'm sorry that I can't give any constructive feedback, as I'm having mental blocks that prevent me from looking at the story closely enough.

[Arakawa]

Hmgh.  Thinking about what sarsaparilla said... canon!Mikuru (at least initially) says things that imply her to be a very low-level technician who did not have any instructions to get that close to Haruhi. However, Haruhi (bein the Ace) picks her out as the most suitable time traveler for the club, and Kyon develops genuine sympathy for her situation, Mikuru being truly out of her depth. If there are deeper reasons for Mikuru's presence, she was still chosen so as to be clueless about them, on the principle that you can't give away anything that you yourself have no idea about.

Now, sympathy!Asahina has specific instructions to act appealing to Kyon, so she's a completely different sort of time agent, who has to be able to do her 'job' with complete and utter indifference and cynicism. 'Not likeable' (as a person, not as a facade) is basically a requirement of her job description. I can't suggest anything regarding whether she could be adjusted to avoid raising apprehension

but

the specific thing I don't know regarding this story is, what is the ultimate goal of the 'job' that Haruhi's presence is 'making easy' for Asahina? In general, the rule of thumb seems to be that Kyon is by-default stable and Haruhi is an unplanned disruption which the factions would prefer not to have; so if Haruhi hadn't shown up, what would Asahina's job have entailed? What do the time travelers get out of Asahina having Kyon's attention, anyways?

It's not a question I was worrying about before, but it strikes me as important to settle if you do want to consider ways that Haruhi's interactions with Asahina might have gone differently.

Legitimately speaking, Haruhi seems to have even fewer good reasons to get along with Asahina than Kyon ever did with Koizumi. Kyon suspects Koizumi might be putting up an act to get into the warper's confidence, Haruhi knows Asahina is putting up an act. I get the impression that this is the basic parallel being followed in developing Asahina's character.

sarsaparilla, what would you say was different between the Haruhi/Yuki chapter, and this one, that made you apprehensive specifically at this point? (Actually, I'm not sure which fic AAG is, so maybe knowing that would answer the question somewhat.)

[Brian]

I'm sorry for the late feedback, but I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm not sure what I should say, or even if I shouldn't say anything at all. My problem is that the latest chapter made me feel apprehensive. I couldn't figure out the reason for some time until I realized that I'm afraid that this fiction might be heading to the same direction as AAG. Specifically, the thing that made me worry was that while I find the moeness of the canon Asahina somewhere between barely tolerable and annoying, this Asahina here I find outright unlikeable. Having such a character pity Haruhi suggests that Asahina is supposed to be seen as a character that is more 'correct' or likeable than Haruhi, which makes me fear the possibility that instead of sympathy the goal of the story might be to break Haruhi and beat her into submission. I haven't read the outline and don't know whether I'm imagining things. Once again, I'm sorry that I can't give any constructive feedback, as I'm having mental blocks that prevent me from looking at the story closely enough.

I would like to think that for all of my failings, I've learned enough from our discussions to not blindly make that mistake again.  I really wish you could see AAG as I intended it; someone choosing to learn from their mistakes and bettering themselves when they realize the world is larger than them; not the cruel manipulation you see it as--  I've been agonizing over how to bridge that gap for over a month by now.

But I don't know how to do that yet.

To be clear, the thing you're afraid of is not the intended plan.  I can see how the structure is similar enough that you might see, "This is just heading towards being mean to Haruhi and forcing her to change."  That's not where the story is going; I just have a habit of trying to make even antagonists as somewhat sympathetic (or really, more identifiable).  The goal was not in any way to hint that Mikuru's behavior was more 'good' or moral--  She is, to put it plainly, a manipulative bitch, and her 'pity' for Haruhi makes her (in my eyes) condescending and cruel.

I'd like to reassure you and say that yes, you are imagining things ... but this really backs up my theory that (even if it's subconscious), you don't like my writing because it's just done wrong by you one-time-too-many.  And that's fine!  I've made myself come to grips with the idea that I only occasionally manage to write things that don't bother you a few months ago -- so please don't push yourself further on my account.

Thank you for your feedback anyway; I hope the next story I write will be one of the few that manages not to upset you, and appreciate the feedback that you did offer.  :)

(Actually, I'm not sure which fic AAG is, so maybe knowing that would answer the question somewhat.)

At A Glance.  Let's try not to discuss that fic here; it's still kind of soulcrushing for me that something I intended to be uplifting manages to come across as it does to Sarsaparilla.  Huhu--

I just realized; I have a sixth sense.  Whenever I'm really, really confident about something and I post it, Sarsaparilla doesn't like it.  The correlation is 100%.

...how depressing; my half-hearted joke is actually true in retrospect.  I'll label this new sense 'common' and wish I'd developed it years ago.

Anyway:

the specific thing I don't know regarding this story is, what is the ultimate goal of the 'job' that Haruhi's presence is 'making easy' for Asahina? In general, the rule of thumb seems to be that Kyon is by-default stable and Haruhi is an unplanned disruption which the factions would prefer not to have; so if Haruhi hadn't shown up, what would Asahina's job have entailed? What do the time travelers get out of Asahina having Kyon's attention, anyways?

It's not a question I was worrying about before, but it strikes me as important to settle if you do want to consider ways that Haruhi's interactions with Asahina might have gone differently.

Oh, well:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Not sure I actually want to invest the time--  The thing about it is ... those details will never actually be relevant because of the planned climax.  Before it gets to the point where those questions could be answered, well, it won't matter.

[sarsaparilla]

The goal was not in any way to hint that Mikuru's behavior was more 'good' or moral--  She is, to put it plainly, a manipulative bitch, and her 'pity' for Haruhi makes her (in my eyes) condescending and cruel.

This is exactly the impression I got from the chapter which shows that you're right on the mark. Please forgive my speculation that was completely unjustified.

[Brian]

This is exactly the impression I got from the chapter which shows that you're right on the mark. Please forgive my speculation that was completely unjustified.

I don't think that's worthy of an apology, actually.  Speculation is fine -- asking questions to clarify things....  That's absolutely not something you should apologize for; you're trying to improve communication and understanding.  I'd rather you ask and allow the window for explanation and communication than otherwise!

So ... I must politely ignore the apology, because you didn't do anything to warrant it.  Instead, let me apologize that my delivery made you apprehensive.  I'm sorry I keep doing that.  >_<;

[Brian]

Hm.  I have little confidence in this chapter.

That's probably for the best.

Edit: Updated chapter four in the first post.

[Grahf]

I can't say much at the moment, but I seem to get the implication here that you want to portray Kyon's Shinjins as docile, or at least threatening to a much lesser degree than the ones Haruhi produced. I don't know if you'd want to have Haruhi comment on the fact that it doesn't seem to be doing anything and have that as a chance for Koizumi to expodump a little.

If I'm wrong then feel free to ignore this.

[Brian]

Mmm, yeah, they are relatively more docile, but mostly Haruhi had thrown Koizumi off by her demand.  It they were totally docile, the espers would probably have a different job.  The implications that it's 'harmless' aren't really great; makes the espers come across as bullies, and also delivers an unwanted message.

I was aiming for it to act more Kyonlike; where Haruhi's energetic and gung-ho (and her shinjin, too), Kyon's apathetic and lethargic (and so...).  The goal was more that Koizumi was distracted from pointing at it awakening by Haruhi's unexpected demand.

I'll revamp that so it at least destroys one building before it gets attacked -- and make Koizumi's distraction more obvious.  The exploding building can bring focus back to where it ought to be.

Thanks for the feedback; I'll have a cleaned draft posted as soon as I run out of inspiration for the next chapter. :D

[Brian]

Revision of chapter 5.

Also, I had insomnia, so instead of sleeping, I wrote chapter 6, too.

[JonBob]

Well, that was certainly unexpected. Kyon's knowledge and how he addresses Haruhi make the twist clear relatively fast, but it's not bad.

Is it bad that "inadequate bonding with secondary observation target" makes me think of visual novels where you don't trigger enough flags?

The transition in POVs is a bit abrupt and forces you to recall exactly what happened in the prologue. It certainly puts you in the correct "what the heck is going on here" mindset. On that same thought, the pacing and length of the time between the note and the meeting serves to mirror Haruhi's own impatience.

[sarsaparilla]

Chapter 5

This feels much, much better than the previous chapter. After Nagato's indifference and Asahina's hostility the inversion of Koizumi is actually a rather likeable person, and reverses the trend of Haruhi becoming progressively more isolated from the rest of the brigade. A welcome reassurance. Haruhi's excitement and impulsivity is well portrayed.

He's easier to talk to about it, but to cut a very, very long conversation into a more reasonable-length one, his stance is basically a rehash of the same bizarre Kyon-centric solipsism as the others.

This sentence comes through as somewhat abrupt. Maybe Haruhi could mention a couple of things that Koizumi speaks about and then give her verdict on the whole, to make it flow better?

Haruhi's interaction with her mother is a nice brick joke, and made me smile.

Chapter 6

An unexpected turn -- it feels like the story was building momentum in a different direction and then suddenly jumped right into the endgame. If I understand correctly, the story would appear to wrap itself up in the next chapter.

What is 'Nevada-tan'? A shout-out to some other series?

Continuity issue: Haruhi's unfreezing after Asakura is taken care of is not mentioned at all.

That person being what looks like a very slightly younger version of me!

Would it really be possible to tell that?

Several plot points are left open, so I can't comment them until the next chapter.