[Naruto] Motivation chapter 10

[Brian]

I'm stuck and need help.  >_<

Probably at least the last half of this chapter is just horrible and needs to be rewritten entirely, but I'm kind of trying to figure out how it _should_ work.  So ... special, "Extra rough and terrible draft" warning on this one. ;_;

Edit: v2 (now with less suck!)

[alethiophile]

Spoiler: ShowHide

"It...." Shikamaru trailed off and looked at Sakura with a frown. The blonde girl had gone white as a sheet at that nickname for some reason. "What? You know that name?" he asked, frowning.

Sakura shouldn't be blonde, should she?

"We'll keep getting stronger," Naruto said with solemn confidence. "Some day, I'll be Hokage. And when I am, and we're strong enough, I'll authorize your mission to handle care of that person."

'handle care of' should probably be 'handle' or 'take care of'.

It doesn't look bad to me at all. But then, I'm easily pleased by Naruto/Hinata interactions.

[Dracos]

*sleepily finishes a read*

*will give feedback later in his slow meandering way*

I agree with your view.  It feels rough.  Some scenes are sharp, but mmm...  *ponders sleepily and will put things into words later*

[Empyrean]

Spoiler: ShowHide

"I'm only an A-rank missing bitch; I gotta admit she's out of my league. Us lesser bastards and whatnot have to stick together, right?"

Probably works better without the "missing" part, since Anko's not missing.

Well, that earned the Toad Sannin some credit, in Kakashi's mind;

I had to double check this one. "Toad Sennin" or "Toad Sage" would be the typical use.

"Don't even finish that sentence," she said flatly, with a lot less of the heated anger than Kakashi would have expected. Then again, they had been teammates at one point, hadn't they?

This is a little awkward. Could lose "of the" from the first sentence and leave it as is, or rewrite it. "Don't even finish that sentence," she said flatly. Kakashi would have expected some heated anger, but then again, they had been teammates at one point, hadn't they?"

Waving a hand to forestall his former teammate, Sarutobi overrode him. "Danzo, we will speak later. You didn't want my time before Jiraya arrived, so I can't think it's that urgent. In the meantime, Tsunade's contract is evidently about to expire, so if it's all the same, I'll speak to my students in private.

Koharu and Homura are Sarutobi's former teammates and both are present, but they aren't described as doing anything, so in context it looks like the narration is referring to Danzo (not a teammate). If one of his teammates was about to speak up and the Hokage waved them off, that could bear mentioning to avoid confusion.

"Mission successful, so unless you encountered something unexpected, not really. I trust your judgement,"

Not necessarily an error, but "Judgement" is the British spelling.

"Suit yourself," Shikaku agreed, shrugging before he fell to lean against the door to the Hokage's office, studying his fingernails.

"Fell to lean against the door" is kind of an odd phrase. I'd probably just go with "leaned back against the door" here.

Hinata formed a seal Sakura didn't recognize right away, but the shadow-user was faster, managing to snare her with his kagemanu-jutsu.

Shunshin just uses the Ram seal. The Ram is really common and it's used in Henge, so all of the genin should recognize it on sight.

She'd threatened Shikamaru and Shino -- and Hinata -- with the fact that they were up to something behind Naruto's back, but it was only then that it really sunk in.

I'm not quite sure on this, but I think this would be "had really sunk in" at the end. Or possibly leave it as it is except to replace 'sunk' with 'sank.' Again, I'm not positive on this one.

"I have to get to the library," she said, breaking into a run toward Konoha, without waiting for a reply from either of the boys.

The last comma is superfluous.

"Some day, I'll be Hokage. And when I am, and we're strong enough, I'll authorize your mission to handle care of that person."

Just "handle" or "take care of" here.

I liked Naruto and Sasuke having their little almost-cry out.

"S...stupid kyuubey...."

Kyuubi.

Also, go Hinata. :)

[Ristridin]

Spoiler: ShowHide

"Tsunade wasn't going to come, so be bribed her to appear by paying off her gambling debts."

... so he bribed ...

Jiraya is officially Jiraiya, I think.

The story wasn't his best work, but it got the job done. "This copy is signed, too -- a special gift from me to you, Sensei! One of my proudest creations, no doubt about it!"

Advertising his work to eavesdroppers, then admitting the truth when they were behind a privacy seal. I like it.

Shikaku made a sympathetic noise and cocked his head to one side in thought. "Ah," he said, nodding. "Why not find a room for tonight, and file a D-rank mission to have the estate cleaned?" he suggested.

If only Jiraiya had planned/known about this...  This could have been the perfect way to introduce Naruto to Tsunade. Can still be, but it relies on Naruto happening to get this D-rank rather than planning.

Mitarishi Anko

Mitarashi

She glanced to what he'd retrieved as he unrolled it -- storage seal.

Not sure if it's actually wrong, but I'd have expected to see 'She glanced at ...'.

"Well ... if Hinata was right, for some reason Akimichi-san wanted Hinata to figure this out," Sakura said slowly. "But why?"

"Because he and my father are on the same team," Shikamaru returned blandly. "They've been friends since the academy; it means I thought I was being clever, and my father wanted to warn me, 'You're just a dumb kid, no matter how smart you think you are.' It means he was saying, 'You should trust your teammate, and not dig around.' It means ... that I fucked up and didn't do the right thing. So if it's all the same, I'm just going to lie here and feel like a shitty friend for a while. Naruto-kun deserved better than that, didn't he?"

Shouldn't Shikamaru be able to realize that his father would not be able to know that Sakura had read a poetry book mentioning the red hot habanero? If not for that, they wouldn't have found any S-class secret, and only finding out about Kushina doesn't seem to imply any of Shikamaru's conclusions.

That's the second time Sakura found a book she wasn't supposed to know by the way (see chapter 4 regarding Uzushiogakure).

"Because right now, all we have to tell him is that we know something that we can't explain without admitting we didn't trust him. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel like an ass.

Why can't they just say they thought he might have a bloodline limit he didn't know about, and by chance found out an S-rank secret? I don't really see what this has to do with trust...

[Dracos]

Motivation C&C:

Spoiler: ShowHide

So we chattered a bit offline.  Definitely, the last two scenes together don't work well and Sasuke's seem feels like it comes too early, both from a time perspective and from a how soon the rivalry was.  Chapter 7 gave the request, chapter 8 was him first acting on it and chapter 9 had a solid acknowledgement of him recognizing it had value.  Chapter 10 having the gap in his heart closed feels too soon (effectively 3 scenes among the chapters), so would be something better to hold off on until later.  Basically, succeeding in bonding to that level before they're even doing d-ranks seems too fast.  At least I'm pretty sure we're still in discussion of their first d-rank to be done.

Was hoping to complete a full reread so I could catch any of the tone mismatches, but it didn't happen and it's getting late for a reply, so going through the chapter right now.  I remember my first impression is it felt rough, and slightly off tone, but that was over a week ago, so let's roll and see how it feels on the second read.  This'll be my first really sharp look through of a chapter, so apologies if I note things I hadn't even noticed before.

Scene 1:
Kekkei Genkai gets used a bunch throughout the work and seems to switch spellings between Kekkei Genkai and Kekei Genkai.  You've got a couple of uses of the latter in 8 and 9, which is what caught my eye to something being strange there.  There's a slightly different problem though in that you also use blood limit, which is the english translation of the same?  Or at least, as far as I know.  Is there some guideline you're using to switch between the English and Japanese usages of the concept?  My kneejerk recommendation is to just do a find/replace on Kekkei Genkai and Kekei Genkai to be bloodline limit or blood limit (or do the reverse if you want to keep that a Japanese term, but I think it doesn't benefit the work).

Seems almost a missed opportunity to show off Sakura having a strength of observation when Shino and Shikimaru are asking what gave them away.  Sure, Hinata gave it away, but twice now in her presence Shikimaru has given an excuse for why 'not' to hang out with Naruto.  She's watched him have hundreds of clones out while focusing, so she could easily be mentally thinking of that, or even slyly note they're not as subtle as they think they are.  I mention mainly because as a thinker, Sakura has few enough opportunities to look good, and its a good lead in for the later part of the scene.  They really weren't as subtle as they thought they were being, being genin, and its a good learning opportunity too.

"His henge is off, and he's got a ton of chakra, for one,"

This is something that Sakura has realized and Hinata probably knows, but should actually be news to the rest of them and interesting news too.  Shikimaru should probably ask how his Henge is off, since at this point it probably appears like he has the best henge of the team...  but unless someone else was touching him henged, they wouldn't know it was actually solid like it was.  A simple probe that shouldn't get much screen time, but is strange in its absence.

In any case, if Naruto does not know of this place, he would not have intentionally chosen the design."

This is actually a challenge I think you're inheriting from canon.  It's a really good question why Naruto has any sign of Uzushiogakure on him or anywhere in his residence.  It's certainly not very ninjaly to have him marked with that detail and he's not an educated enough individual to think about it.  A lot of work did go into making him a non-obvious person to target, so in the context of this more competent Konoha, it's a hard question: Why is he marked with a seal.  Perhaps unknown to them, it's a simple sense of sentiment by the Hokage.  He knows its the wrong action, but he gives him some things with the seal to give him some sense of greater cultural belonging.  I dunno, that might not be the right answer, but it's probably important to think on what one might be as it may influence how folks interact with it.  Or I might be overthinking it.

"Um, no, there was no husband listed.... Um, she wasn't married, she had a nickname,

Hinata makes an interesting logic leap.  "she wasn't married".  I suppose its easy enough to make, but is it a worthwhile one to have?  Isn't it enough to have the first and third statements?  Or maybe its reflecting a cultural thing: Husband would be listed on death certificate?  Strange to picture at least.  Oh, you cover it in a few lines with Surviving Family.  Nevermind~.

"It...." Shikamaru trailed off and looked at Sakura with a frown. The blonde girl had gone white as a sheet at that nickname for some reason. "

Oh noes, Ino is posessing Sakura!  Run everybody.  ...I mean, Sakura's hair is pink.  There are no blonde girls there :)

undoubtedly he was reconsidering his previous classification of the girl's abilities.

This is stunning.  Library nerd is useful!  ...wait.  No she isn't~. :3  That's just a bunshin.  Naruuuto~. :)  Silliness.  Skip comment.

Chapter opens fine.  It's sort of strange read on its own, being that its a sharp continuation of scene from the last one and has no context within the chapter.  Nominally a fine technique, though a little weird in that it's the first chapter to do that, instead of starting with a fresh scene.  I wonder vaguely if it might not be more interesting to swap the first and second scenes.  Make us wait a touch.  But then it becomes awkward since the scene is taking just a continuation of the last.  Mmm, dunno, but I point out its difference.

Scene 2:

Someone already commented on Jiraiya's name.  Stupid names.  :P

I like the opener on this scene.  I also really like competent Jiraiya and body-guard protected Hokage.  Strongest ninja in the village or not, it's strange that they generally don't have official bodyguard crews that do not leave them.  I understand it from an animation point, but from a narrative point, it was always silly that there was ever a case where the village leader could end up fighting on his own.  *eyes the chuunin exam*  Ever.

Hum.  Still, something feels odd, and I think I'll comment about it in scene 3.  Scene 2's only real lack is the lack of well...awareness on the very last moment.  What's the point of a privacy seal that can be violated so easily by just shoving oneself through an entrance?  Mmm.  I know it's supposed to fold quick so we can get onto it...  hmm.  And I see it gives a false display of what's going on...or stops when the seal was activated?  It's both a cool thing up Jiraiya's style, and feels like it needs more.  It's set up early that sealwork is a very estoric art these days and the existing examples are pretty awesome, so it seems like it should've required something more (Possibly even just Jiraiya deciding he needed to dismiss it since Tsunade was RIGHT THERE, WATCHING THE FAKE SCENE AND LOOKING PISSED OFF).
TL;DR: Jiraiya should get even cooler sealwork because he's Jiraiya :3

Scene 3:

Until meeting Tsunade personally, Kakashi had never taken Anko for the 'cute and cuddly' type. When he mentioned it in a grumbling observation, carefully well outside of the sannin's earshot, Anko's snorted reply was to explain, "I'm only an A-rank missing bitch; I gotta admit she's out of my league. Us lesser bastards and whatnot have to stick together, right?"

The missing-nin style adjective of course doesn't fit, but it works without it.  The cute and cuddly bit...I'm not sure was set up?  Ah, I guess its just a minor mention :)  I just waver a bit since it seems like Telling over Showing.  In none of the scenes do we really get to see this going on yet, and Anko's last scene was her having a bitch-off with Tsunade.  And winning, because that was awesome. :3

Hmm, giving that there's no tsunade perspective, we the readers lack awareness that she's spotted something important from superfar away.  It'd kind of would be nice to have a foreshadow, but I guess it gets covered pretty soon anyway.

As I grumbled a bit, it just seemed too...non-aware to deal with the seal.  Maybe it is to accent Tsunade's competence, but it just feels a bit weird given the lead up that Jiraiya's privacy seal basically fell over against a kick to the door.  I guess I'm saying the high level ninja play going on here is almost too subtle?

Anko obligingly offered, "Tsunade wasn't going to come, so be bribed her to appear by paying off her gambling debts."

we or he instead of 'be bribed'.

I like how Sarutobi shoots down Danzo in this scene.

Scene 4:

Danzo, the whining sigher.  Still, I can't blame him.  Rereading Tsunade's section really is sort of a messed up tale with lots of stupid problems with it.

Good setup for later scenes :)  Though, admittingly, it is a bit odd that Danzo AND the other two both managed to show up so soon.  Danzo doing it I get (Root member notices Jiraiya coming in and then Danzo gets in place for spying with faux urgent business), but why would he have brought them along?  Cover?

Scene 5:

So while I give points for having Tsunade speak in an educated form, I wasn't educated enough to follow her diagonosis without googling it. The main problem here is that Tsunade requires no motion whatsoever to diagonosis it.  So the reader who doesn't know what that is doesn't have anything to guess with.  You could handle with a post-script, but wouldn't it be more communicative to have her eyes do the talking?  Narrowedly focusing on his chest to help communicate where the problem is?

A lot of the reasoning off of false assumptions on this scene is good stuff.  Especially taking the strategist out of the picture so it's mostly being done by intrigue/technical specialists, the types to not turn the assumptions around.

It makes for a strange tone to the scene, but very much communicates a competent ninja society that even under two layers of secrecy and with all experts there, they are still subtle about what they're communicating, specifically on identities.

Scene 6:

Mmm.  Actually, really I think this set of scenes is unique, in as much as it's the only time so far that a continuous time event has been broken up in motivation so far.  Perhaps that makes it feel different?  Mmm, dunno.  The breaks seem sound for anticipation and technically it seems right.  But maybe that's what feels rough?  I feel that's a wrong guess, but just trying to put my finger on it.

Shikamaru looked singularly unimpressed.

So both Shino and Hinata looked impressed?  Mmm, I dunno, just seemed an odd turn of phrase there.

"We need to be rational about this," he warned, frowning intently. "Look-- We just said Naruto knows an S-rank secret that's not supposed to get out. So unless he's somehow got two of them on him, he already knows."

Shikimaru and Shino both actually have enough information to reasonably deduce that this is the case based on what they've seen on screen.  Namingly, the very first thing that drew them to knowing there was an S-Rank secret: Saizo acting strangely unfriendly to Naruto.  Taking the assumption that the S-rank secret is his heritage, then that doesn't make sense that Saizo would act that way knowing that.  Minato was the hero of the village after all.  This would actually be a very cool bit of deducation, and also discarded information since they realize: What they did was Wrong, they don't act on figuring out that there's another one.  But they do figure it out.

Hinata's reaction is good to the details.  Shikimaru's feels...delayed.  I like what you have going on: "Shit, I didn't trust my friend and now 4 of us know a secret we shouldn't that could cause him to be hunted or killed."  It feels like this could use an earlier facial expression in the scene.  Shino might not have looped to the deeper play, but Shikimaru is clearly already doing it, even if he hasn't explained it to his friends.  If he hadn't realized at least that depth, he wouldn't be stopping Hinata's rush to share.

"Well ... if Hinata was right, for some reason Akimichi-san wanted Hinata to figure this out," Sakura said slowly. "But why?"

Actually, it seems right that they'd see this as strange.  It is an S-rank secret, or at least they have reason to buy it'd be that level of secret.  No one comments that it was mere chance of Sakura knowing an extremely obscure fact that just happened to be listed that let them make that leap.  So not only had they done something wrong, but managed to learn something dangerous with it too.  Shikimaru might not notice, given a reasonable belief that his dad is super awesome that way, but it'd be a nice insight for Shino to make.

Scene 7:

Nice continuation of Competent Jonins.  I like.

he made a note to discuss that with Kurenai later

On one hand, I agree with what Anko said earlier.  On the other hand, they're trying to raise elite ninjas.  Having them not regularly learning new techniques always seemed a very wasteful thing in canon, and what else was Kurenai supposed to do there?  "I see you have already mastered my lesson plan for the next week or two, so...sit there and watch?"  Shunshin really seems to more and more be a canon basic move, if past the academy level.  If anything, it really is a good opening for a discussion on: Okay, what side lessons can we have prepared when people move past the current class point.  It's delivered that all of the teachers are capable of doing more than one lesson at once through kage bunshin.  Holding folks excelling in an area back is no more a good result for their goals as is having one or two leap far ahead of where they should be.

"There really is more than one big secret on him," Shikamaru sighed.

I complain and since I'm doing a fresh read, I forget that you have already had them puzzle it out.  Mmm.  At the same time, it seems like it'd be better to have the kids section as one scene and the jonin response as another.  I guess its splitting because Sakura was the main 'voice' for the last scene, and now its Asuma.  Still, seems like it'd be smoother without the realization split in half across a scene marker.

Shikimaru's emotional reaction seems spot on but his actual insight into events seems...weird.  The whole Trust banked thing seems strange.  I'd almost suggest removing this line entirely:

"So no matter what ... even if it's not soon, some day we're going to have to tell him the truth. I just want to stay on his good side, and have enough trust banked that he'll forgive me for it when it happens."

It leaves the emotional sting and the acknowledgement that they screwed up without the awkward forward vision that feels strange.

Asuma feels back and forth on what he knows when talking with Kurenai.  He says he didn't know that, but the rest of the discussion seems to flow more smoothly if he did know that, and that was among the reasons he had a problem with Sarutobi's post-kyuubi handling of events.  Though I guess, it falls out of the other secret well enough.  Still, it feels... false?

Basically any ninja who's not in the know on secrets showing belated regret over how Naruto was treated who's not showing additional sympathy now comes across as "I was there and did nothing, and I realize this was wrong, and so I still do nothing."  Which seems weird given the characters? 

Eh I think I'm meandering and reading too much into the lines.  Feel free to ignore the blathering. 

Yay Kakashi's summons getting on screen time :)

Scene 8:

Nice canon note with the whole tea cermony thing.  So weird to get my head around, but quite canon.

I really like this scene.  It's sort of a world-building shame that there's a lack of other options in many of there areas though.  Kakashi, Danzo, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Shikaku make up the entire short list of hokage candidates and for what's supposed to be a powerful ninja village, that's a pretty short list.  But what can you do without adding in OCs?  It's just part of the lack of original kishimoto world building.  Frankly, you'd think in their environment, especially with the Hokage's age that there'd be a clear power transition set up.  Any number of people could legitimately suggest it without even knowing about the heart attack or other problems, just because aside from the Iwa kage, Sarutobi has like 30+ years on any of his contemporaries.

Having reread the original take, I also note I like the interplay better between Tsunade and Jiraiya here than in canon.  It was awkward and forced to plop down character traits in canon, whereas here it seems like an honest discussion on someone they both care about and should care about.

Scene 9:

As mentioned, it's a good scene, but it feels like it comes too soon.  I'd save it for a later chapter.  Possibly even after D-ranks get started.

Both are a little...clumsy with their "I'll give you x tech' type discussion.  Though I guess its Sasuke talking about it.  It's like discussing improving writing techniques by saying "Okay, I have a scroll of i after e except after c" instead of "I'll help you with grammar if you'll help me with emotional scenes."  It feels too low-level a trade form instead of going "I'll let you share in my library of cool shit, and we'll help each other learn them."


Scene 10:

"Oh," Naruto coughed out, as his eyes overflowed, tears streaming down his face. "S...stupid kyuubey...."

I see what you did there.  If a demon eats Naruto's head, I will be disappoint.

The reaction here, which seems quite plausible, makes Shikimaru's early suspicion that I suggested dropping seem even more weird.  Better that they feel like asses rather than verbalize how Naruto totally won't end up seeing them.

mmm, It does still feel a bit rough, but I like the hinata scene.  It's sort of overshadowed by the cool Jiraiya/Tsunade scenes earlier but it does seem like a good end point.

Additional Notes:

It seems like a pity that Naruto is minimally in this chapter and that his infiltration efforts are skipped over (mentioned once in sasuke scene).  Seems like that could be a fun scene to balance out the bam-bam-bam serious, serious, emotional, serious, serious type rhythm that most the chapter has.

I'm...not sure if I actually helped on the roughness.  Hope these can help.

[Empyrean]

Regarding the backup training plans for students who get a little ahead of the regular curriculum, instead of teaching them common techniques early they should go for something that's outside of the basic curriculum, preferably suited to their aptitudes. It's more efficient to teach the core techniques to everyone at once.

This isn't something that happens in canon, though. When somebody gets a technique faster than their teammates, they just move on to the next technique in the curriculum, which their teacher has to explain again once the others catch up to that point. I guess that would make sense if they were using an assembly line approach to produce ninjas to spec, but every ninja worth anything has a bunch of unique quirks and tricks. It would make more sense if this were reflected in the training program.

[Dracos]

In canon, water walking is good preparation for chuunin level.

So pathetic. :(

[Brian]

I ... thought I had replied to this. :x

I didn't!

Spoiler: ShowHide

"It...." Shikamaru trailed off and looked at Sakura with a frown. The blonde girl had gone white as a sheet at that nickname for some reason. "What? You know that name?" he asked, frowning.

Sakura shouldn't be blonde, should she?

"We'll keep getting stronger," Naruto said with solemn confidence. "Some day, I'll be Hokage. And when I am, and we're strong enough, I'll authorize your mission to handle care of that person."

'handle care of' should probably be 'handle' or 'take care of'.

Both of those are fixed!

It doesn't look bad to me at all. But then, I'm easily pleased by Naruto/Hinata interactions.

Thanks for the feedback, ale. :p

[Brian]

And for Pax:

Spoiler: ShowHide

"I'm only an A-rank missing bitch; I gotta admit she's out of my league. Us lesser bastards and whatnot have to stick together, right?"

Probably works better without the "missing" part, since Anko's not missing.

It was meant to be a joke on 'missing nin', but I guess that it doesn't need the missing part?  Might as well; they rate other things D through S.

Well, that earned the Toad Sannin some credit, in Kakashi's mind;

I had to double check this one. "Toad Sennin" or "Toad Sage" would be the typical use.

Yeah, got it confused with a different term. >_>;

"Don't even finish that sentence," she said flatly, with a lot less of the heated anger than Kakashi would have expected. Then again, they had been teammates at one point, hadn't they?

This is a little awkward. Could lose "of the" from the first sentence and leave it as is, or rewrite it. "Don't even finish that sentence," she said flatly. Kakashi would have expected some heated anger, but then again, they had been teammates at one point, hadn't they?"

Will revise.

Waving a hand to forestall his former teammate, Sarutobi overrode him. "Danzo, we will speak later. You didn't want my time before Jiraya arrived, so I can't think it's that urgent. In the meantime, Tsunade's contract is evidently about to expire, so if it's all the same, I'll speak to my students in private.

Koharu and Homura are Sarutobi's former teammates and both are present, but they aren't described as doing anything, so in context it looks like the narration is referring to Danzo (not a teammate). If one of his teammates was about to speak up and the Hokage waved them off, that could bear mentioning to avoid confusion.

Totally my screwup.  Danzo and Hiruzen were on the same squad, briefly.  For some reason, I thought they were on the same team, but that would have the wrong number of people, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily an error, but "Judgement" is the British spelling.

Yeah ... my spellchecker on one of my computers is UK and it shouldn't be.  I'll be going through all of K:BDH and Motivation with a new dictionary to fix that. =_=

"Suit yourself," Shikaku agreed, shrugging before he fell to lean against the door to the Hokage's office, studying his fingernails.

"Fell to lean against the door" is kind of an odd phrase. I'd probably just go with "leaned back against the door" here.

'Fell back against'?  The idea is he's ... er ... being kinda lazy?

Hinata formed a seal Sakura didn't recognize right away, but the shadow-user was faster, managing to snare her with his kagemanu-jutsu.

Shunshin just uses the Ram seal. The Ram is really common and it's used in Henge, so all of the genin should recognize it on sight.

I did not know that.  I should have. >_>;

Fixed.

I liked Naruto and Sasuke having their little almost-cry out.

Yeah, that scene got pulled for use later.  I think it's a great scene, but a little too soon. >_>;;

Used the other fixes you suggested!

Also, go Hinata. :)

That scene, I will probably leave in the revision!

As always, thanks for the feedback, Paxly one. :D

[Brian]

To Ristridin:

Spoiler: ShowHide

"Tsunade wasn't going to come, so be bribed her to appear by paying off her gambling debts."

... so he bribed ...

Jiraya is officially Jiraiya, I think.

Okay, updated my dictionary.

Advertising his work to eavesdroppers, then admitting the truth when they were behind a privacy seal. I like it.

:D

If only Jiraiya had planned/known about this...  This could have been the perfect way to introduce Naruto to Tsunade. Can still be, but it relies on Naruto happening to get this D-rank rather than planning.

Jiraiya actually leaves the hints for Shizune to pick up later. :p

Mitarashi

Fixed that entry, too. >_>

Not sure if it's actually wrong, but I'd have expected to see 'She glanced at ...'.

Fixed.

Shouldn't Shikamaru be able to realize that his father would not be able to know that Sakura had read a poetry book mentioning the red hot habanero? If not for that, they wouldn't have found any S-class secret, and only finding out about Kushina doesn't seem to imply any of Shikamaru's conclusions.

That's the second time Sakura found a book she wasn't supposed to know by the way (see chapter 4 regarding Uzushiogakure).

Possibly.  Shikamaru's not completely correct in any case.  He's making the assumption that it's not as obscure knowledge as it actually is.

For the books, there's a joke (kind of) about the incident that got Naruto kicked out of the library due to a prank, and a reference to Sakura volunteering to work there, as well.  Long story short, he ended up causing a bunch of books that were supposed to be pulled to end up hidden behind shelves, where Sakura ultimately ended up finding them.

Not really sure how well that actually works ... I can probably change the conditions for the book not being around anymore, like it just being old, or still being there, but obscure.  That might work better for Shikamaru's assumption, actually.  Yeah, I'll go with that.

Why can't they just say they thought he might have a bloodline limit he didn't know about, and by chance found out an S-rank secret? I don't really see what this has to do with trust...

Well, yeah, they can say that, but Naruto mentioned he had an S-rank secret and didn't want to talk about it.  So Shikamaru feels bad about it and doesn't want to be misleading, because from what he can tell, Naruto's always been honest with him and Shino.  Shino feels similarly, because the three of them are cool like that.
[/quote]

Thanks for the feedback!

[Brian]

Motivation C&C:

hooray~!

Spoiler: ShowHide

[...]Basically, succeeding in bonding to that level before they're even doing d-ranks seems too fast.  At least I'm pretty sure we're still in discussion of their first d-rank to be done.

Yeah, for now, cutting the Sasuke scene.

Scene 1:
Kekkei Genkai gets used a bunch throughout the work and seems to switch spellings between Kekkei Genkai and Kekei Genkai.  You've got a couple of uses of the latter in 8 and 9, which is what caught my eye to something being strange there.  There's a slightly different problem though in that you also use blood limit, which is the english translation of the same?  Or at least, as far as I know.  Is there some guideline you're using to switch between the English and Japanese usages of the concept?  My kneejerk recommendation is to just do a find/replace on Kekkei Genkai and Kekei Genkai to be bloodline limit or blood limit (or do the reverse if you want to keep that a Japanese term, but I think it doesn't benefit the work).

Fixed it; went with kekkei since that was in the first sevenish chapters. x_x

It is being used interchangably with blood limit, though.

Seems almost a missed opportunity to show off Sakura having a strength of observation when Shino and Shikimaru are asking what gave them away.  Sure, Hinata gave it away, but twice now in her presence Shikimaru has given an excuse for why 'not' to hang out with Naruto.  She's watched him have hundreds of clones out while focusing, so she could easily be mentally thinking of that, or even slyly note they're not as subtle as they think they are.  I mention mainly because as a thinker, Sakura has few enough opportunities to look good, and its a good lead in for the later part of the scene.  They really weren't as subtle as they thought they were being, being genin, and its a good learning opportunity too.

Okay, I added a little bit to that; Sakura has more info than everyone else already, so just had her remark on Shikamaru/Shino being obvious (to her).

This is something that Sakura has realized and Hinata probably knows, but should actually be news to the rest of them and interesting news too.  Shikimaru should probably ask how his Henge is off, since at this point it probably appears like he has the best henge of the team...  but unless someone else was touching him henged, they wouldn't know it was actually solid like it was.  A simple probe that shouldn't get much screen time, but is strange in its absence.

Hmm.  That's true.  Will add a bit on that, too.

This is actually a challenge I think you're inheriting from canon.  It's a really good question why Naruto has any sign of Uzushiogakure on him or anywhere in his residence.  It's certainly not very ninjaly to have him marked with that detail and he's not an educated enough individual to think about it.  A lot of work did go into making him a non-obvious person to target, so in the context of this more competent Konoha, it's a hard question: Why is he marked with a seal.  Perhaps unknown to them, it's a simple sense of sentiment by the Hokage.  He knows its the wrong action, but he gives him some things with the seal to give him some sense of greater cultural belonging.  I dunno, that might not be the right answer, but it's probably important to think on what one might be as it may influence how folks interact with it.  Or I might be overthinking it.

It being a gift from the Hokage works, but that's not something any of the kids would know at that point.  And I'll probably go with that.  The frog wallet, on the other hand, was clearly a gift from Naruto's godfather, even if Naruto didn't recognize it. :p

Hinata makes an interesting logic leap.  "she wasn't married".  I suppose its easy enough to make, but is it a worthwhile one to have?  Isn't it enough to have the first and third statements?  Or maybe its reflecting a cultural thing: Husband would be listed on death certificate?  Strange to picture at least.  Oh, you cover it in a few lines with Surviving Family.  Nevermind~.

Yeah, I believe that's a customary thing to mention.  Could be wrong. >_>;

Oh noes, Ino is posessing Sakura!  Run everybody.  ...I mean, Sakura's hair is pink.  There are no blonde girls there :)

Ino could actually do that ... but the hair color wouldn't change.  :p

Chapter opens fine.  It's sort of strange read on its own, being that its a sharp continuation of scene from the last one and has no context within the chapter.  Nominally a fine technique, though a little weird in that it's the first chapter to do that, instead of starting with a fresh scene.  I wonder vaguely if it might not be more interesting to swap the first and second scenes.  Make us wait a touch.  But then it becomes awkward since the scene is taking just a continuation of the last.  Mmm, dunno, but I point out its difference.

Huh.  That sounds like a good idea, actually.  Also adds a tiny bit of tension to the mini-cliffhanger of Tsunade barging in for the PoV shift.

Hum.  Still, something feels odd, and I think I'll comment about it in scene 3.  Scene 2's only real lack is the lack of well...awareness on the very last moment.  What's the point of a privacy seal that can be violated so easily by just shoving oneself through an entrance?  Mmm.  I know it's supposed to fold quick so we can get onto it...  hmm.  And I see it gives a false display of what's going on...or stops when the seal was activated?  It's both a cool thing up Jiraiya's style, and feels like it needs more.  It's set up early that sealwork is a very estoric art these days and the existing examples are pretty awesome, so it seems like it should've required something more (Possibly even just Jiraiya deciding he needed to dismiss it since Tsunade was RIGHT THERE, WATCHING THE FAKE SCENE AND LOOKING PISSED OFF).
TL;DR: Jiraiya should get even cooler sealwork because he's Jiraiya :3

Hmmm....  Well, the idea was more that the privacy seal doesn't absolutely prevent eavesdropping or interference, it just makes any of that very obvious, since dropping super illusions or sound dampening tends to be somewhat obvious on its own.  I can expand on that a bit.

The missing-nin style adjective of course doesn't fit, but it works without it.  The cute and cuddly bit...I'm not sure was set up?  Ah, I guess its just a minor mention :)  I just waver a bit since it seems like Telling over Showing.  In none of the scenes do we really get to see this going on yet, and Anko's last scene was her having a bitch-off with Tsunade.  And winning, because that was awesome. :3

That's true.  Revised Anko's line to reflect that she's already played her best card, though.

As I grumbled a bit, it just seemed too...non-aware to deal with the seal.  Maybe it is to accent Tsunade's competence, but it just feels a bit weird given the lead up that Jiraiya's privacy seal basically fell over against a kick to the door.  I guess I'm saying the high level ninja play going on here is almost too subtle?

Shouldn't be as much of a problem with the added emphasis that Jiraiya was going for subtlety, so the seal is easy to break down, but hard to sneak through.

Good setup for later scenes :)  Though, admittingly, it is a bit odd that Danzo AND the other two both managed to show up so soon.  Danzo doing it I get (Root member notices Jiraiya coming in and then Danzo gets in place for spying with faux urgent business), but why would he have brought them along?  Cover?

They make a good excuse to loiter and hear things that Danzo probably isn't supposed to; in theory they're leverage against the Hokage.  Ends up not working, though.

So while I give points for having Tsunade speak in an educated form, I wasn't educated enough to follow her diagonosis without googling it. The main problem here is that Tsunade requires no motion whatsoever to diagonosis it.  So the reader who doesn't know what that is doesn't have anything to guess with.  You could handle with a post-script, but wouldn't it be more communicative to have her eyes do the talking?  Narrowedly focusing on his chest to help communicate where the problem is?

Hmm, it would really follow her hands, more than anything else, but I can add to that.

It makes for a strange tone to the scene, but very much communicates a competent ninja society that even under two layers of secrecy and with all experts there, they are still subtle about what they're communicating, specifically on identities.

:D

So both Shino and Hinata looked impressed?  Mmm, I dunno, just seemed an odd turn of phrase there.

Revised.

Shikimaru and Shino both actually have enough information to reasonably deduce that this is the case based on what they've seen on screen.  Namingly, the very first thing that drew them to knowing there was an S-Rank secret: Saizo acting strangely unfriendly to Naruto.  Taking the assumption that the S-rank secret is his heritage, then that doesn't make sense that Saizo would act that way knowing that.  Minato was the hero of the village after all.  This would actually be a very cool bit of deducation, and also discarded information since they realize: What they did was Wrong, they don't act on figuring out that there's another one.  But they do figure it out.

Right.  Hmmm.  They also need to be quiet on the topic of a second secret from Sakura.  I revised that a little to have them not mention the second S-rank secret around Sakura, and also comment that Naruto probably only knows an edited version of the truth, or wasn't given any specifics.

Hinata's reaction is good to the details.  Shikimaru's feels...delayed.  I like what you have going on: "Shit, I didn't trust my friend and now 4 of us know a secret we shouldn't that could cause him to be hunted or killed."  It feels like this could use an earlier facial expression in the scene.  Shino might not have looped to the deeper play, but Shikimaru is clearly already doing it, even if he hasn't explained it to his friends.  If he hadn't realized at least that depth, he wouldn't be stopping Hinata's rush to share.

Not sure I've added enough to Shikamaru, and Shino is usually outwardly impassive anyway.  Hopefully those touch-ups help.  We will see. :x

Actually, it seems right that they'd see this as strange.  It is an S-rank secret, or at least they have reason to buy it'd be that level of secret.  No one comments that it was mere chance of Sakura knowing an extremely obscure fact that just happened to be listed that let them make that leap.  So not only had they done something wrong, but managed to learn something dangerous with it too.  Shikimaru might not notice, given a reasonable belief that his dad is super awesome that way, but it'd be a nice insight for Shino to make.

Well, the book was changed from 'lost' to 'obscure'.  Which Shino could easily see as a hint of a deeper message.  Shikamaru would probably read it as, 'trusting others behind his friend's back', which helps play to the overarching message.  I'll go with that.

On one hand, I agree with what Anko said earlier.  On the other hand, they're trying to raise elite ninjas.  Having them not regularly learning new techniques always seemed a very wasteful thing in canon, and what else was Kurenai supposed to do there?  "I see you have already mastered my lesson plan for the next week or two, so...sit there and watch?"  Shunshin really seems to more and more be a canon basic move, if past the academy level.  If anything, it really is a good opening for a discussion on: Okay, what side lessons can we have prepared when people move past the current class point.  It's delivered that all of the teachers are capable of doing more than one lesson at once through kage bunshin.  Holding folks excelling in an area back is no more a good result for their goals as is having one or two leap far ahead of where they should be.

Yeah, on reflection, I'll drop that line.

I complain and since I'm doing a fresh read, I forget that you have already had them puzzle it out.  Mmm.  At the same time, it seems like it'd be better to have the kids section as one scene and the jonin response as another.  I guess its splitting because Sakura was the main 'voice' for the last scene, and now its Asuma.  Still, seems like it'd be smoother without the realization split in half across a scene marker.

Part of it is keeping 'there's another secret on him' from Hinata and Sakura, so since the first half was Sakura's PoV, there has to be a shift.

Shikimaru's emotional reaction seems spot on but his actual insight into events seems...weird.  The whole Trust banked thing seems strange.  I'd almost suggest removing this line entirely:

"So no matter what ... even if it's not soon, some day we're going to have to tell him the truth. I just want to stay on his good side, and have enough trust banked that he'll forgive me for it when it happens."

It leaves the emotional sting and the acknowledgement that they screwed up without the awkward forward vision that feels strange.

Hmmm.  The idea is Shikamaru is saying they screwed up and he wants to make up for it somehow.  I'll poke at it a bit, see what I can come up with.

Asuma feels back and forth on what he knows when talking with Kurenai.  He says he didn't know that, but the rest of the discussion seems to flow more smoothly if he did know that, and that was among the reasons he had a problem with Sarutobi's post-kyuubi handling of events.  Though I guess, it falls out of the other secret well enough.  Still, it feels... false?

Basically any ninja who's not in the know on secrets showing belated regret over how Naruto was treated who's not showing additional sympathy now comes across as "I was there and did nothing, and I realize this was wrong, and so I still do nothing."  Which seems weird given the characters? 

Eh I think I'm meandering and reading too much into the lines.  Feel free to ignore the blathering.

Not sure how it's false?  Asuma has a problem with Kyuubi's container not being given adoptive parents etc., even not knowing who the parents were -- so he didn't just sit idle, but instead left the village because he wasn't allowed to do anything.  Might be attributing too much to Asuma, here, but was trying to play on a strong protective instinct, hence him becoming a Guardian Ninja for some years.

Yay Kakashi's summons getting on screen time :)

Practically offscreen. >_>;

I really like this scene.  It's sort of a world-building shame that there's a lack of other options in many of there areas though.  Kakashi, Danzo, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Shikaku make up the entire short list of hokage candidates and for what's supposed to be a powerful ninja village, that's a pretty short list.  But what can you do without adding in OCs?  It's just part of the lack of original kishimoto world building.  Frankly, you'd think in their environment, especially with the Hokage's age that there'd be a clear power transition set up.  Any number of people could legitimately suggest it without even knowing about the heart attack or other problems, just because aside from the Iwa kage, Sarutobi has like 30+ years on any of his contemporaries.

Having reread the original take, I also note I like the interplay better between Tsunade and Jiraiya here than in canon.  It was awkward and forced to plop down character traits in canon, whereas here it seems like an honest discussion on someone they both care about and should care about.

Aces! :D

I'm especially happy with that scene.

As mentioned, it's a good scene, but it feels like it comes too soon.  I'd save it for a later chapter.  Possibly even after D-ranks get started.

Both are a little...clumsy with their "I'll give you x tech' type discussion.  Though I guess its Sasuke talking about it.  It's like discussing improving writing techniques by saying "Okay, I have a scroll of i after e except after c" instead of "I'll help you with grammar if you'll help me with emotional scenes."  It feels too low-level a trade form instead of going "I'll let you share in my library of cool shit, and we'll help each other learn them."

Hmm.  Yeah, that'll need to be reworked, but it's already pulled for later use.

"Oh," Naruto coughed out, as his eyes overflowed, tears streaming down his face. "S...stupid kyuubey...."

I see what you did there.  If a demon eats Naruto's head, I will be disappoint.

He'd just grow it back.  (Fixed.)

The reaction here, which seems quite plausible, makes Shikimaru's early suspicion that I suggested dropping seem even more weird.  Better that they feel like asses rather than verbalize how Naruto totally won't end up seeing them.

He can still feel guilty for going behind Black Star's back like that! :p

It seems like a pity that Naruto is minimally in this chapter and that his infiltration efforts are skipped over (mentioned once in sasuke scene).  Seems like that could be a fun scene to balance out the bam-bam-bam serious, serious, emotional, serious, serious type rhythm that most the chapter has.

Hmmm.  That's a good point, but the question is where that scene would fit.  I could pad out the Naruto/Hinata scene toward the end with him telling her about his antics and stuff?  Not sure.

I'm...not sure if I actually helped on the roughness.  Hope these can help.

I think that was a huge help -- thanks. :D


Edit: Updated draft in first post.

[alethiophile]

In an attempt to assuage my vague feelings of guilt over being terrible at C&C.

Spoiler: ShowHide

He was ... well ... old. The signs weren't nearly as obvious, the last time the Toad Sage had seen him

If the narrative in general is in past tense, shouldn't this be in past perfect, i.e. 'hadn't been' rather than 'weren't'?

Even though the ANBU kept his mask in place and said nothing, Jiraiya got a distinct sensation of him sending the old man a flat stare from behind the 'bear' symbol.

Maybe 'impression' rather than 'sensation'? The latter suggests an actual sensory input, to me, as opposed to an inference from context.

The other girl just nodded in agreement. "I've heard that takes either tons of practice, or some sort of inhereted ability," she added.

'inhereted' -> 'inherited'

When he mentioned it in a grumbling observation, carefully well outside of the sennin's earshot, Anko's snorted reply was to explain, "I'm only an A-rank bitch; I gotta admit she's out of my league, since I already played my best card. Us lesser bastards and whatnot have to stick together, right?"

I'm honestly not sure what's correct here. It's common among the fandom to confuse 'sennin' with 'sannin', but I don't know if 'sennin' can be applied to Tsunade; I recall something about it referring to a person who knows the Sage Mode, and Tsunade is never mentioned as doing that. On the other hand, ISTR some reference in somewhat authoritative materials to Orochimaru as 'sennin', and he doesn't apparently know Sage Mode either. On the gripping hand, using 'sannin' in the same context might also be incorrect, since it's a proper noun/title for those three specifically, and I don't know if 'the sannin' works. So in retrospect this point is probably entirely useless, but it's something to think about.

Well, she was one of the sennin, so they made good time, thanks to Shizune carrying the pig.

This one, though, seems as if it should be 'sannin', since it's refering to 'one of them'.

It was not an order, but was at least standard practice to walk through slowly enough that the guards could confirm identification before entering the village.

'Order' seems a bit odd to use here, since I associate that with a single command rather than an ongoing policy. 'Standing order', maybe.

Unbidden, the ANBU in the corner -- almost having passed from Tsunade's mind -- offered, "Mizuki attempted to steal a forbidden scroll containing the sealing information for the kyuubi, and also attempted to kill its container."

The phrasing 'almost having passed from Tsunade's mind' seems a bit odd, but I don't know why. Also, I've usually seen 'kyuubi' capitalized, which I think makes sense, since in the absence of anyone who knows its actual name it's pretty much a proper noun here.

Grimacing, she said, "I'm sure it's just a coincidence ... but.... Well, okay. I've read every book the yondaime wrote, alright? He's got a good writing style and makes for easy study."

I'd also be inclined to capitalize 'yondaime', but that's a stylistic decision.

"Ninja from other villagers were ordered to flee on the sight of him," Shino added,

'at the sight', maybe?

And even if I wouldn't read a book on poetry, everyone knows Sakura volunteers at the library and reads it all.

'book of poetry'? 'on' works as well, but that seems more like some sort of literary analysis of it, rather than actual poems.

She'd agreed, making some offhand comment about 'meeting all three of the sennin.'

This should probably also be 'sannin'.

In the meantime, he was still pretty pissed about his sensei not thinking it was worth telling him that someone had gotten close enough to trying to kill Naruto that a chunin instructor died in his place.

'close enough to trying to kill' -> 'close enough to killing', maybe? The former makes me think of someone who was close to resolving to make an attempt, but eventually decided against it.

"If you're looking for a legendary sennin, there's two right here!" he exclaimed.

I'm guessing 'sennin' -> 'sannin', since 'legendary'.

"If you're so good at learning, can't you figure out how to explain thing better?" Sasuke finally growled.

'explain things'

[Ristridin]

Spoiler: ShowHide

 

Jiraiya actually leaves the hints for Shizune to pick up later. :p

The whole thing did seem like it could be a good set-up; Shizune being persuaded to get a D-rank and Tsunade being persuaded to talk to Naruto if she happened to meet him on some D-rank mission. There are a few problems with it though (or at least, things that are unclear to me).

1. Jiraiya likely did not know Tsunade would be in Konoha until she barged into the room (there was no real need to let him know, and he could not have known of the success of the retrieval mission). This basically means no plan has been set up before then.
2. Shikaku was the one who persuaded Shizune to get a D-rank, before having had the time to communicate with Jiraiya. Jiraiya went straight to the Hokage after all. Cave-at to this problem: Shikaku might not yet be in on the plan (in fact, at the point of the conversation with Shizune, there should not yet be a plan), so this might simply be an accident that happens to fit nicely in a plan Jiraiya sets up later.
3. No on-screen communication between Jiraiya and Shikaku means that Jiraiya might not know about Shizune's D-rank mission. If he has not heard about it, he cannot pull strings to have Naruto on that particular mission. Cave-at: He might have heard it from Shikaku after the meeting; this leaves only the question why Shikaku would have mentioned it.
4. Jiraiya mentions Naruto to Tsunade only. Shizune only arrives later (and did not overhear because of the frog). If Shizune has to pick up the hints (and make sure Tsunade arrives during the D-rank rather than after, I suppose), Tsunade must tell her about Naruto before tomorrow (AND Shizune needs to somehow conclude that Naruto is likely to be on this D-rank). This seems like a rather big assumption on his part, though the part between brackets might not be too hard if Shizune is used to picking up very subtle clues. Shizune did get a 'calculating glint lighting in her eyes' that I can't really explain, but I don't actually see any communication happening (very simple hand signs maybe? But Tsunade might be able to pick those up).

Points 1 doesn't need to be fixed; point 2 can just be chalked up to coincidence and used later. Point 3 is my biggest issue if this is indeed a set-up; Jiraiya needs some way to know that Shizune placed a D-rank mission to clean up Tsunade's ancestral home. Point 4 can be fixed in a subtle way (if it isn't already there in a way that I'm missing), for example, by having Jiraiya mention 'the kid' with a minor emphasis in Shizune's direction before leaving. This could prompt Shizune to ask Tsunade what he was talking about afterwards and draw the right conclusion.

Apart from this, no further comments on the revised version.

Edit: Other than the fact that Shikamaru's reasoning seems much more sound now.

[Dracos]

Unfinished, but liking the new touches.

Will comment once finished reading.