Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

QuoteThe later books have underlined a growing discrepancy between the actions of these two Haruhis. Where the student!Haruhi is kind, caring and considerate, the leader!Haruhi can be competitive, ruthless and manipulative like the most hardball CEO of a kaisha.

QuoteOn day 6 (Rome II) Kyon is still ruminating his options when he is suddenly visited by adult!Asahina who doesn't want that Kyon tells Haruhi about her powers (too early for this timeline),

QuoteThat night, during the horror play in the Catacombs of Domitilla IDSE overrides and takes direct control of Nagato and unbeknownst to the rest of the brigade she delivers Kyon to Asakura for safekeeping while IDSE deploys a false Kyon to join the brigade.

QuoteHaruhi exorcises her power and the unbound energy makes all hell break loose (this is where the nearby volcano, suitably foreshadowed by a visit to Pompei before the arrival at Capri, enters the equation).

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AM

QuoteThe later books have underlined a growing discrepancy between the actions of these two Haruhis. Where the student!Haruhi is kind, caring and considerate, the leader!Haruhi can be competitive, ruthless and manipulative like the most hardball CEO of a kaisha.

I'm not quite so sure that this divide is so sharp. Certainly, the idea that she can't find a happy medium from which to relate to Kyon works, but I suspect it's more because she's still somewhat lacking in empathy - not to the point where she doesn't care about other people, but in trying to see things from others' perspectives and relate to them with that in mind? Yeah, she'll likely always have trouble with that.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AM

QuoteThat night, during the horror play in the Catacombs of Domitilla IDSE overrides and takes direct control of Nagato and unbeknownst to the rest of the brigade she delivers Kyon to Asakura for safekeeping while IDSE deploys a false Kyon to join the brigade.

Ties in with the above; it's still quite doable, I'd just consider very carefully how to approach it. The IDSE is already concerned about the possibility of a reveal to Haruhi due to the existence of the trump card, and they obviously take it seriously since they haven't tried to remove Yuki since then. Having them assume direct control of Yuki strikes me as far too risky for them; incapacitating her or keeping her from interfering in some manner seems more likely. The rest of the setup with Asakura sounds fine, as long as we get the cheerful ax crazy going with it.

Honestly, this is partly character interpretation (not -directly- supported by canon), but the impression I've always gotten is that after Disappearance, Yuki's first allegiance is now to Kyon and by extension the rest of the brigade, given that he's effectively saved her life. I'd see her actually being supportive of Kyon's efforts, but explicitly told not to interfere by the IDSE.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 04:41:12 AMPlease be kind, this project means a lot to me (^_^')

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 04:41:12 AMHowever, eventually the dynamic of the situation becomes so obvious that even Kyon recognizes it and on the evening of day 5 (Rome I) Kyon and Haruhi have their first serious discussion (after a toga party arranged by Haruhi (When in Rome...)) where both of them know what is on the table. Kyon acknowledges that it's a package deal – he can't cherry-pick just the Haruhi that he wants, and is actually willing to consider a relationship, but then realizes that he can't have one in the current situation because Haruhi must know about her powers (and that Kyon knows about them as well, it's a trust issue for Kyon) before such a crucial decision. Kyon needs more time to reflect on it and the discussion ends in a stalemate. This is where the second part of the main story kicks in.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 04:41:12 AMHowever, Kyon doesn't particularly like his future self and realizes that if he blindly obeys what others say then that is what kind of a person he will eventually become.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 04:41:12 AMHowever, Yasumi arrives to free Kyon and agrees with his intent. Before disappearing Yasumi creates a spacetime 'bubble' that shields the brigade members from their respective factions for the rest of the trip, but with the caveat that if things go wrong this particular branch of the timeline will disappear by the end of the trip and instead the default one where Kyon spent the last two days as an involuntary guest of IDSE will become the real one. After Kyon returns to the rest of the brigade Kyon, Nagato, Asahina and Koizumi hold an emergency meeting where Kyon gets a non-interference pledge from (the now released) Nagato, and while Asahina and Koizumi are against Kyon's plan they realize that they can't force Kyon into abandoning it.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 04:41:12 AMAt that point, and based on poor communication and inadequate understanding of the situation, Haruhi is alone and decides that if her powers stand between him and Kyon, and that they are not doing anything good for her in any case, then what she wants is Kyon. Haruhi exorcises her power and the unbound energy makes all hell break loose (this is where the nearby volcano, suitably foreshadowed by a visit to Pompei before the arrival at Capri, enters the equation). Nagato, Asahina, Koizumi and Yasumi disappear (because without a personified power there aren't aliens, time travelers, espers, or indeed avatars of the said power) and Kyon must convince (by now completely terrified) Haruhi into reversing her decision before all the power has escaped. After the misunderstandings are corrected Haruhi is still not certain because she now also sees all the consequences of her powers (on the surface it looks like the responsibilities are far greater than the benefits). Kyon asks Haruhi to reach into his mind for a particular memory and they visit the Disappearance universe and witness a heartbroken alternate!Haruhi dump alternate!Koizumi on Christmas day. When Kyon tells Haruhi that everything that is better in the real world than the drab alternate world is a direct consequence of Haruhi's powers, Haruhi finally understands the whole situation and absorbs the power back. WAFF ensues.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMWith the setting being in Rome, I'd address some of the natural concerns in taking that kind of trip - communication difficulties, and at least for Koizumi, the fact that he's going to be separated from his power base would likely be a concern.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMIf you want to seed doubts or points of curiosity with Haruhi, you might also note that Yuki seems to be completely fluent in Italian, etc.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMThe idea of Mikuru at any age being manipulative is a really common (and personally irritating) interpretation of her; she never really shows much inclination towards this in the novels

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMI understand that you're shooting for the brigade members to oppose what Kyon needs to do, but I'd tend to vote towards using Koizumi here more.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMThe IDSE is already concerned about the possibility of a reveal to Haruhi due to the existence of the trump card, and they obviously take it seriously since they haven't tried to remove Yuki since then. Having them assume direct control of Yuki strikes me as far too risky for them; incapacitating her or keeping her from interfering in some manner seems more likely. The rest of the setup with Asakura sounds fine, as long as we get the cheerful ax crazy going with it.

Honestly, this is partly character interpretation (not -directly- supported by canon), but the impression I've always gotten is that after Disappearance, Yuki's first allegiance is now to Kyon and by extension the rest of the brigade, given that he's effectively saved her life. I'd see her actually being supportive of Kyon's efforts, but explicitly told not to interfere by the IDSE.

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AM

QuoteHaruhi exorcises her power and the unbound energy makes all hell break loose (this is where the nearby volcano, suitably foreshadowed by a visit to Pompei before the arrival at Capri, enters the equation).

Uh, one issue with that. You've made a point of stating here that Haruhi's use of her powers is more or less forced to be unconscious. How then can she consciously remove them?

Quote from: Halbarad on September 21, 2011, 11:50:26 AMOverall, the idea looks like it's got a lot of potential; the tripping hazards I can see are in setting up the brigade members as too antagonistic (leaving Kyon without any support to deal with a destabilizing and panicking Haruhi), and overshooting Haruhi's accidental use of her powers and setting up some fridge horror with it.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI actually saw that behavior as Haruhi being (non-violently) tsundere about the issue; she's not ... quite just going about it the wrong way and accidentally slipping into her leadership role; she's actually trying to use the guize of leadership as a pretense to press Kyon romantically (but also has to be ... somewhat subtle about this, because of what she's trying to do).

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMThat's somewhat also reflected (I think) in the way that Haruhi tries to get Kyon to study with her at her house in book 8, and in book 9 actually uses the 'should show up late to make an impression' excuse to spend time with Kyon (and help him study).

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI pretty much agree with Hal that this approach could use a bit of refinement.  I'm ... not sure the IDSE can just hijack Yuki, and if they could, they'd be really careful that, considering Kyon (and that he's pretty close to effectively playing the trump card anyway).  If they have the power to isolate Kyon, replace him with a double, and override Yuki....

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMRather than make a long speech, I'll leave this link here, though, as it may be something to consider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae

Which, incidentally, could be applied to Kyon's narration through the novels, but, hey....

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI ... think that this will require a time-quake at some point in your story to justify/resolve the paradox, and be consistant with how the stories explain time travel.  But that's a minor detail, probably almost easily concealed in all of the other explosions (and the space-time bubbles) that are going to be set up.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI do like that you're using Yasumi, as that's an interesting angle that can get some development.  I also note that it seems that Haruhi (in this story) maybe uses Yasumi, a little bit, to channel frustrations that her Shinjin can't handle, by being more callous than Haruhi will allow herself to be around others?

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMOn the angle of Mikuru -- since her older self already pressured Kyon, this would actually be a good chance for you to (counter to Hal's suggestion of not making the older one manipulative (Hal and I do, unfortunately, tend to reinforce one-another's opinions maybe a bit too much, so I'm going to try and play devil's advocate here)) have this Mikuru defy her orders and support Kyon making his own decisions.  Mikuru's last real mentioned goal for character growth was to 'some day be the Mikuru that rescues Kyon'.  That may not happen here, but it'd be a nice nod to her character-growth goal to see her become more supportive and confident anyway.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMThis does leave Koizumi as the 'odd man out' in terms of opposing Kyon, but since I (personally) tend to be too harsh on Koizumi, let me go against myself and suggest that Koizumi can be thrown a bone here, too; he can present the opposition to Kyon as the Organization's goal, not his.  "My superiors have pressured me to relate things to you, though, what you do with this information is up to you...." etc.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMSince you have them realizing they're not going to change Kyon's mind anyway, letting them explain the agendas of their superiors without actually approving them gives all three of them the same chance that is otherwise only given to Nagato: to state their own opinions and feelings on the subject and who they are, not just the goals of their organizations.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI'm mostly only throwing this out because you were saying it was a longer story, and while your Haruhi/Kyon interactions are well mapped out, there's chances for the other characters to get some growth, too.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI'm not a big fan of poor communication kills, but it's used as dramatic tension, not to compound other things, so I think I'll be okay with it here.

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI like the idea that Kyon sees Haruhi's influence as beneficial to reality as a whole.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMActually, if we talk about tsundere then I'd tend to say that if anything, Haruhi is an inverse tsundere. She shows both typical deredere and tsuntsun behaviors (and of course, much more), but in the opposite sense than an actual tsundere.

But of course, she doesn't have split personality or anything, the labels that I made up are just a mental aid in trying to map her main modes of operation.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMYes, the 'study aid' was actually one of Haruhi's tactics that worked as intended (I think), and showed how Haruhi is slowly learning what works with Kyon and what doesn't.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMAs a part of the play, Nagato already takes Kyon to a separate place in the catacombs, and that is where IDSE intervenes.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMThanks, will keep in mind.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PM

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI do like that you're using Yasumi, as that's an interesting angle that can get some development.  I also note that it seems that Haruhi (in this story) maybe uses Yasumi, a little bit, to channel frustrations that her Shinjin can't handle, by being more callous than Haruhi will allow herself to be around others?

I love the window into Haruhi's mind that Yasumi provides, and intend to use her to the full effect ^^

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMOk, I'll seriously have to reconsider the angle I'll be using for her. I want it to look like she's doing her best to help, but also that at the end she will find the situation better than before.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMI assume that the Organization was not aware of Kyon's intentions until they were pre-emptively sealed out, leaving Koizumi free to act as he sees best. Furthermore, because Yasumi is working with Kyon for a common goal (at least until the endgame) and is happy with that, Koizumi is puzzled when Haruhi is enraged but it doesn't cause closed space.

I think that I'll have to add one more discussion between Kyon and Yasumi at some earlier point in the story. It could be one of the triggers for day 5, and make the time when she's needed for saving Kyon less of a Deus Ex Machina.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMI was hoping to be able to have a closer look at the rest of the brigade members during their respective themed activities.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PM

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI like the idea that Kyon sees Haruhi's influence as beneficial to reality as a whole.

I believe that Kyon's point is ultimately valid -- the difference between the two worlds is exactly that Haruhi doesn't have powers in the alternate one. If I can play it right it will be at the same time the crowning moment of heartbreaking and heartwarming for the story.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMAgain, thanks for the feedback!

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 03:11:28 PMThere's also the idea that if Yasumi can get (at times) to be an independant person, does she want to do things that Haruhi can't/won't, too?  Possibly even moreso, because Haruhi is supressing herself at the moment?

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 03:11:28 PM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PMI think that I'll have to add one more discussion between Kyon and Yasumi at some earlier point in the story. It could be one of the triggers for day 5, and make the time when she's needed for saving Kyon less of a Deus Ex Machina.

It sounds like these interactions could very well be some of the most critical in the story (as well as interesting ... Kyon having frank discussions with the manifestation of Haruhi's psyche is a pretty engaging idea!).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 21, 2011, 02:48:16 PM

Quote from: Brian on September 21, 2011, 01:42:18 PMI ... think that this will require a time-quake at some point in your story to justify/resolve the paradox, and be consistant with how the stories explain time travel.  But that's a minor detail, probably almost easily concealed in all of the other explosions (and the space-time bubbles) that are going to be set up.

The 'bubble' acts as one. While in effect, it is a kind of a pocket universe and it is implied that somewhere outside the 'larger' universe without Yasumi's intervention is proceeding at its own pace, and depending on what happens in the bubble it will either vanish without trace or replace the default universe at the time of expiration, thus causing a time quake.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 25, 2011, 11:36:03 PMI'm still trying to understand how you're planning to present the nature of Haruhi's power. It seems to stray a bit close to "Haruhi was initially a warper, but most of her abilities have passed to Yasumi". That's... a bit creepy, actually, since Yasumi is self-aware and childlike/amoral and she presumably has privileged access to the contents of Haruhi's mind.

Most of these problems can probably be solved if you make it more that Yasumi isn't a separate person, so much as a projection of Haruhi's inner frustrations/desires.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 25, 2011, 11:36:03 PMAlso, if you want to develop a theory where Haruhi's powers are purely subconscious/superconscious but she can still exert some measure of control over them in the story, one possible suggestion is familiarizing yourself with Steve Pavlina's take on Intention-Manifestation

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/manifesting-intentions/ (this is probably the most Haruhi-like take on the subject on his blog, but you can of course click around to related articles which use a different metaphor to explain the notion)

and assume that Haruhi's powers are more or less a supercharged version of I-M. So obviously she would have extreme difficulty controlling her powers consciously even if she knew about them, just like reading that blog article wouldn't instantly turn you into a reality warper :-)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on September 25, 2011, 11:36:03 PMNot sure whose terminology for Yasumi's space-time bubble / closed space I like better here, yours or mine.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 26, 2011, 01:48:57 AM
(On a somewhat unrelated note, the blogger fails Popper, or specifically the concept of falsifiability.)

Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 26, 2011, 01:48:57 AM
It isn't a closed space in the conventional sense (because otherwise Koizumi could use his powers)

QuoteAlthough spring is my favorite season, summer comes right behind, and not just literally speaking. Like peasants enduring through the hardship of the rice planting season, knowing that the arduous toiling will soon be over and there will be a short respite before the fruits of the invested labor can be collected, students had been working hard ever since the beginning of the new school year and now the long awaited summer vacation was finally so close that it was turning from a distant reverie into a tangible possibility. Although summer shousho was still ahead, the weather had been fair with ever increasing temperatures for two weeks already, and to teachers' eternal exasperation, the persistent sunshine was slowly but surely wearing down students' last shreds of determination to sit quietly inside, reading about mind-numbing topics like function theory, verb conjugation or the power struggles of the Kamakura period.

QuoteThis was my second summer as a high school student, but in a sense it was the first one when I actually felt more or less like an actual student, enjoying the steady and predictable schedule of school activities with normal, everyday thoughts in my mind. Mostly normal thoughts, and those thoughts that went beyond what any average person could possibly categorize as normal weren't that unwelcome either. I realized, to my own mild astonishment, that on the whole I was more satisfied with the current situation than perhaps ever since entering high school and meeting the person who would turn my entire world upside down like an irresistible force of nature.

QuoteAs long as I live I'll never be able to forget that name, and one of the reasons for that was exactly that I had spent a large part of the last summer in a constant state of emergency, trying to avert an impending end-of-the-world disaster that always seemed to be just one poorly chosen word or inadvertent action away. Since that time things had gotten better, so much better in fact that right now I could sit here on the school premises and enjoy the agreeable atmosphere of an early afternoon in the joujun of July, completely confident of the fact that any sudden disturbances couldn't take it away from me. For most people it might be a sign of foolishness to express excessive confidence in future events, but I had a very specific reason for my seemingly bold statement.

QuoteHaving originally been the direct threat to the world as we knew it, Haruhi's ability to subconsciously alter reality had later become a source of stability instead. The last time when an external force had tried to divert the course of history from its proper path had been in April, and the attempt had been swiftly and decisively thwarted, in a manner that underlined the fact that the scheme hadn't had any chance of succeeding in the first place. Maybe such an overwhelming show of force was acting as a preventive measure, making any potential antagonists think twice before they pushed forward with their futile plans. Whichever way it was, the SOS Brigade had been enjoying an extended period of relatively peaceful and untroubled existence for over two months already, and I wasn't going to be the one to complain about it.

QuoteHowever, the largest change could be seen in Haruhi herself if one knew where to look. She was still just as energetic and excitable as ever, and would on occasion get some new idea that temporarily turned her immediate surroundings into a hotbed of more or less questionable activities, but anybody who observed it on a merely superficial level would miss the most important development. As much as it strains the definition of the word to say this, Haruhi was undeniably becoming more normal.

QuoteThe few city-wide mystery searches that we had had after the SOS Brigade anniversary in May had turned into poorly concealed excuses for window shopping, and Haruhi had apparently been completely content with that. Beyond the brigade activities, she was also interacting with other people on a daily basis, and I was pretty certain that these days she was genuinely enjoying the company of perfectly ordinary students like Sakanaka-san. Actually, when Haruhi was not using her position as the leader of the brigade to push issues in the direction she wanted, she could present an entirely engaging and sociable aspect of herself to others.

QuoteIn my opinion, it was not as much a matter of her growing up into a better person, as it was one of her once again becoming the nice person she had originally been, and I had several good reasons for believing so after all the things that I had learned during the incident in April.

QuoteThis completely unnecessary comment was provided by the person currently sitting idly next to me on the stairs leading down to the baseball field where the all stars team of North High was having a match against a visiting team from another school. Other than whatever meager pride we could muster to support the home team, neither of us had any personal interest in the current match, and thus we sat there listlessly like two old cormorant fishers, content with the opportunity to just enjoy the scenery and let others do the hard work. A moment of silent indulgence would have suited me perfectly, but the official mysterious transfer student and vice president of the SOS Brigade felt compelled to keep talking without any further encouragement to do so.

Quote"My current smile is completely genuine and heartfelt. There has not been a single instance of closed space forming after that incident in April, which means that the first time in four years I get to sleep through the night unperturbed. I was not even fully aware of how large a burden the eternal vigilance had become until this reprieve. Quite honestly, I am feeling refreshed, almost like a different person, and I sincerely hope for things to stay this way."

QuoteKoizumi paused momentarily to watch as a fortuitously placed line drive brought a run for the home team, and chuckled before continuing.

Quote"Still, there has been some minor consternation within the Organization concerning the current situation. From a certain point of view, right now we are essentially an agency without a purpose. Speaking of which, I must say that I can completely sympathize with the situation Tachibana-san is facing. I have understood that she has been having a hard time after she left her respective faction, and it looks like their whole organization might be on the verge of collapse."

Quote"Then, you know as much about the whereabouts of the other members of the anti-SOS Brigade as I do. Ever since the joining of the timelines in April there has not been a single sighting of the person known as Fujiwara, so we might have gotten permanently rid of him, although it goes without saying that one can never be completely certain when it comes to time travelers. On the other hand, that alien interface of the Sky Canopy Dominion is still attending Kouyouen and does not seem to be interested in communicating with us at the moment. Of course, I am not privy to whatever communications the two alien factions might be having with each other. That is the current situation, and there are not any discernible forces acting toward destabilizing it."

QuoteI must give you credit for not counting Sasaki among the members of the anti-SOS Brigade.

QuoteKoizumi stopped talking and I spent some time watching other students at the perimeter of the field before concentrating on the game again. It looked like the match was wrapping up, and unless the visiting team would make an unexpected comeback the home team would take an easy win after the last inning. Because of that I wasn't particularly interested in waiting until the game was over, so I stood up and headed back to the main building. Koizumi was not in a hurry and was determined to stay until the end of the match, so as I walked away he just reminded that we'd be seeing each other after the school hours again.

QuoteIn July it was already way too late to catch May sickness, and in any case Haruhi was never sick in the first place, but I was almost certain that there was something in her mind that she was holding back. On occasion, she would abruptly stop talking, even in the middle of a sentence, and stay silent for a good while before continuing with some other, completely unrelated topic. Or, she might suddenly lose all interest in a particular idea that she had only a moment ago pursued like it was her entire raison d'etre, and just sit still for ages, contemplating some inner vision she wasn't willing to share with others. I had previously seen what Haruhi looked like when she was bored, annoyed or just dispirited, and this spell was none of those. It wasn't even the muted aura of a Haruhi who was secretly hatching a new plan for making the world a more interesting place. No, there was something else, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was and there wouldn't be any point in asking, anyway.

QuoteIt wasn't exactly a regular or a particularly systematic curriculum, as Haruhi followed her own interests and lines of thought that were as unfathomable as the migration patterns of bluefin tuna in the uncharted depths of the ocean, sometimes pressing a certain topic for two or three days in a row and then forgetting the whole thing for several days, so that I already started to suspect that she had lost all interest in the project until she picked up the books again.

QuoteWhatever I thought in general about being the focus of Haruhi's sporadic efforts of making the world a more learned place, even if only by a vanishingly small amount in total, I had to admit that her approach was working. After a long, depressing downward slope that had dominated my performance record for the entire first year there had recently been a definite turn for the better, and although I wasn't anywhere near the top of the list like Haruhi, it had started to look less likely that I would be doomed to spend time as a ronin after the high school.

QuoteBesides having my own grades on the rise, I had also gradually started to understand how Haruhi could always get top scores in every exam without seemingly doing any work at all. It wasn't so much a matter of being able to rapidly pick up new facts, as it was about picking up the right facts and ignoring everything else, something that Haruhi seemed to be able to do intuitively, without even realizing that it was a feat beyond the abilities of most students, myself including. If anything, I felt that on my own I somehow always managed to pick up the exactly wrong facts on any topic, providing me with an endless supply of utterly useless information.

QuoteThus, the situation was slowly undermining my confidence in the entire educational system, if most of the material that we were required to go through was only there to make it harder to find the few important bits in the middle of all the chaff. Who knows, some day Haruhi might be in a position to revolutionize the entire learning process, and it would probably be something that she would do without even noticing it. It would be all in a day's work for her, considering all the other things that she had created inadvertently, like that brigade logo that attracted data beings, or the literature club editorial column that according to Asahina-san contained the founding principles of time traveling technology. Come to think about it, what hidden secrets might still be contained in the movie that we had made for the culture festival? Maybe in a hundred years' time people would be able to decrypt the ultimate answer to life, universe and everything from that movie? In a chance event like that, I wasn't quite certain whether I should feel proud or embarrassed about my part in it all.

QuoteAnyway, even my tender and eternally concerned mother who had raised me had already noticed the change, and had tried to find out the specific reason through circumspect and seemingly offhand questions. Evading my mother's inquiries made me feel somewhat conflicted. On one hand, I was receiving undue merit as long as she suspected that I had achieved the results through my own diligent effort, and on the other hand the situation would become even more complicated if I told her the real reason behind my improving grades. For all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly, so that my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, and since Haruhi wasn't really used to receiving praise for the things she did on her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

Quote"Hiyas, how are you? Saw you there and remembered that there's something that I must asks about the summer vacation. Are you still intending to come and visit that castle that we've talked about. I would need to know soon to have enough time for the arrangements."

QuoteI didn't see you around on the sports field. Have you been here for the whole time?

Quote"Kyon! Sometimes I really doubt whether you have what it takes to be a member of the SOS Brigade. You should be cheering for the home team, not jeering!"

QuoteHaruhi stared me with the unflinching focus of a martial artist who had just issued a formal challenge to an opponent of questionable prowess. So, humankind as a whole was still falling short of Haruhi's extremely rigorous standards, but there wasn't much I could do about it. On the other hand, Haruhi certainly could but she hadn't tried anything as drastic as completely rewriting the world after that one fateful night, the details of which I couldn't possibly think about too closely in the current situation. Since then a bit over a year had already passed, and while there had been several unpleasant and some truly dangerous incidents along the way, it was my steadfast opinion that on the average the change was for the better. In the end I made only one statement that was undeniably true.

QuoteI expected to be served a swift retort as I saw that Haruhi was already in full swing like a national league hitter, ready for driving my lazy pitch right out of the field, but then she suddenly stopped in her tracks. She looked me directly in the eyes for a fraction of a second, as if having second thoughts about her intended reply, before snapping her mouth shut without saying a word and turning her head to the side again. I could see that she was muttering something to her reflection in the window, but I couldn't hear what it was because of the general din caused by other students returning to the class.

QuoteSoon thereafter the teacher arrived and the normal afternoon schedule commenced.

QuoteDuring the third year of high school I might indeed have my hands full of work with the preparations for university exams but right now that milestone was still too far away to start worrying about, and I spent the afternoon hours in a state of halfhearted indolence, like an old, lazy dog basking in the shadow of the front porch of a country house, paying only a nominal amount of attention to the topic of each lesson. If her overall demeanor was anything to go by, Haruhi was probably even more absent-minded than me, but at least she didn't sleep during the classes as had been her habit during the first year. Then again, she didn't seem to be inclined to share her current thoughts with me either, and I willingly left it at that.

QuoteI remembered that Asahina-san had been depressed earlier this year. I had noticed it and we had discussed the issue, at least to the extent it was possible to have a meaningful conversation without causing some weird temporal paradox by accidentally revealing information that the other shouldn't have known at that point. I had thought that the situation had been more or less solved and as far as I could tell, right now Asahina-san looked like her usual self, or maybe even a bit more cheerful than before. If that was the case then why would Tsuruya suspect that Asahina-san was having some trouble related to the brigade? I couldn't find any apparent reason but there had to be one since Tsuruya wouldn't say such things unless she had noticed something. On the other hand, I couldn't possibly ask Asahina-san about it directly because Tsuruya had specifically told that I shouldn't do anything. I just had to keep my eyes open and wait for any further advancements.

QuoteIncidentally, that reminded me about the secret Mikuru folder on the club computer. I had finally gathered enough determination and permanently deleted the folder with its contents in late April. It hadn't been an easy decision but most certainly the right one. If Yasumi could find the folder so easily then it would be only a matter of time until Haruhi did the same by accident, and that wasn't a risk I was willing to take at this point. Now, after Tsuruya's remark, I actually felt relieved by the knowledge that the compromising photos couldn't be the cause of Asahina-san's trouble, whatever it was.

Quote"This is Hakase-san, the estate gardener. He already knows what you're looking for and will show you around. I must go and change clothes but if you need anything else just let me know. Laters!"

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMThe use of shousho is not entirely clear to me.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMActually...why would a high school have an all-star team?  Do they do that there?

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMIt seems odd for Koizumi to refer to them as an "anti-SOS Brigade".

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PM

QuoteThus, the situation was slowly undermining my confidence in the entire educational system, if most of the material that we were required to go through was only there to make it harder to find the few important bits in the middle of all the chaff. Who knows, some day Haruhi might be in a position to revolutionize the entire learning process, and it would probably be something that she would do without even noticing it. It would be all in a day's work for her, considering all the other things that she had created inadvertently, like that brigade logo that attracted data beings, or the literature club editorial column that according to Asahina-san contained the founding principles of time traveling technology. Come to think about it, what hidden secrets might still be contained in the movie that we had made for the culture festival? Maybe in a hundred years' time people would be able to decrypt the ultimate answer to life, universe and everything from that movie? In a chance event like that, I wasn't quite certain whether I should feel proud or embarrassed about my part in it all.

This paragraph works, but I fear it may fall victim to a tendency to be too referential.  A hurricane of canon references is something I try to avoid (and probably don't always succeed) because it's all information we already know.  Your mileage may vary, though.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMNational League.  Or perhaps one of the NPB leagues?

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PM

QuoteSoon thereafter the teacher arrived and the normal afternoon schedule commenced.

You could plausibly end the prologue at this break.  It's not complete by any stretch, and perhaps it would need a bit more of a conclusive line to act as a real hook, but it could be done.  Otherwise, from a literary standpoint, Tanigawa had no problem with crazy-long prologues, so I don't see why there should be a problem here.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMWhy, Hakase-san, you seem very familiar...

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMI feel like this might be a bit slow to develop, but not unduly so.

QuoteTo be quite honest, I know absolutely nothing about baseball. Never played it myself, never seen it played (other than in anime). So, anything that sounds off is a research failure on my behalf.

QuoteActually, my original plan was to label the first three chapters (altogether around 40k words) as Prologue I, II and III, and start the main story after that ... somebody might see that as a bit excessive, though....

But to meet the minimal requirements for a prologue, I'll have to carry it at least to the end of the second half of Chapter I.

• It filters the target audience, which might be a good thing if you keep in mind that readers who make it to the later chapters are going to have a high tolerance for detail. You can spend less time worrying about whether the later chapters move too slowly when you need to get involved with the psychological elements, and more time actually exploring what you want to explore. Seeing as the major set piece (that I personally am looking forward to) of the fic looks to be Yasumi's recurring visits and conversations, even more so than the supernatural elements, this might be something to consider.
• It lets the audience familiarize itself with your particular take on the characters, before they start doing anything. This might be good or bad.

Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2011, 10:33:02 PMSo, I may be unsettled for no reason, just because that was evoked by a similar opening (second year summer vacation, things are ostensibly improving between Kyon/Haruhi but it's not really reflected well in their 'onscreen' interactions, ...snip...

Though, I suppose that you're both Finnish authors.  Is there some cultural appeal to the concept/setup I'm unaware of, perhaps?  ...

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 25, 2011, 11:56:29 PM
And another thing I noted:

Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2011, 10:33:02 PMSo, I may be unsettled for no reason, just because that was evoked by a similar opening (second year summer vacation, things are ostensibly improving between Kyon/Haruhi but it's not really reflected well in their 'onscreen' interactions, ...snip...

Though, I suppose that you're both Finnish authors.  Is there some cultural appeal to the concept/setup I'm unaware of, perhaps?  ...

Ooh... my initial reaction to that comment was 'again with the stereotypes?'

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:04:48 AM
I'm highly disconcerted to think that I stereotype.  When did I do this before?  This is something I want to be aware of to prevent in myself; that is in no way a positive behavior, and I'm pretty unhappy to think I've fallen into it. :(

Ugh.  Had been so positive throughout the day....

Erm, in retrospect, since it seems my commentary may have been too callous, I've pulled it down until I can figure out what's wrong with me.

Vast apologies, Sarsaparilla!  I seem to have inadvertently done something very wrong. >_<

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 01:13:34 AMBrian, I did not wish to express any implication that you are an intolerant person. Having met a large number of genuinely intolerant people (and perhaps having had a few of their habits rub off on me :-/), it unfortunately did not occur to me that my comment would cause you to see yourself this way. In fact, all I meant to express was that at first I thought there was no basis for drawing that particular connection based on two fics of very different quality, and so I'd tuned the comment out, but then I noticed a few slight parallels which made me think a little. Guhh... to think it was so easy for me to poison the atmosphere without meaning to...

Quote from: BrianThe longer I think about it, the more I realize that novels 9-11 (really, 10-11) just don't really sit well with me....  And I can't help but notice a marked downturn in new Haruhi fanfics corresponding with the release of the translations in English. :/

Quote from: Brian

Quote from: sarsaparilla"And remember, this is just for today. Failing to be present tomorrow is totally unacceptable and will incur a heavy penalty without exceptions!"

Well, this certainly wasn't something that happened every day. On my way to the club room I wondered whether it was the time to start worrying. Probably not. After all, didn't I have my own personal interests to attend to, as well?

What?  Sure it is -- Haruhi tosses the 'death penalty' around constantly.  Unless she's been letting off, in which case Kyon should probably note that it's been a long time since she's done it (seeing as she doesn't seem to have employed that tactic against Kyon to get him to study).

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMActually...why would a high school have an all-star team?  Do they do that there?

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PM

QuoteAnyway, even my tender and eternally concerned mother who had raised me had already noticed the change, and had tried to find out the specific reason through circumspect and seemingly offhand questions. Evading my mother's inquiries made me feel somewhat conflicted. On one hand, I was receiving undue merit as long as she suspected that I had achieved the results through my own diligent effort, and on the other hand the situation would become even more complicated if I told her the real reason behind my improving grades. For all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly, so that my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, and since Haruhi wasn't really used to receiving praise for the things she did on her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

"who had raised me" can be cut.  Otherwise, this line of reasoning seems like a very plausible Haruhi-esque reaction.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PM

Quote"Kyon! Sometimes I really doubt whether you have what it takes to be a member of the SOS Brigade. You should be cheering for the home team, not jeering!"

This is a great line.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 25, 2011, 01:06:05 PMOverall:  the narration seems very natural.  It sounds like Kyon, and that's the most important thing.  All the nit-picking above over style and stuff is really quite minor compared to that.  I'd avoided to some extent the outline and other information you had before, but I know the basic thrust of what's to come.  In that respect, I feel like this might be a bit slow to develop, but not unduly so.  On finishing this part, it does seem like dividing at the first break might be inappropriate, as it doesn't catch what Kyon's done here in going to the Tsuruya estate, so that question may still take some thought.

On the whole, though, you should be very happy with this piece so far.  It's very good.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 02:28:28 PMAgain what I said above ... I really shouldn't use baseball metaphors but the temptation was too strong. >_>

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 02:28:28 PMActually, my original plan was to label the first three chapters (altogether around 40k words) as Prologue I, II and III, and start the main story after that ... somebody might see that as a bit excessive, though....

But to meet the minimal requirements for a prologue, I'll have to carry it at least to the end of the second half of Chapter I.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 25, 2011, 05:03:03 PMIt filters the target audience, which might be a good thing if you keep in mind that readers who make it to the later chapters are going to have a high tolerance for detail. You can spend less time worrying about whether the later chapters move too slowly when you need to get involved with the psychological elements, and more time actually exploring what you want to explore.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 25, 2011, 11:56:29 PM

QuoteIn my opinion, it was not as much a matter of her growing up into a better person, as it was one of her once again becoming the nice person she had originally been, and I had several good reasons for believing so after all the things that I had learned during the incident in April.

Ooh... I'm guessing this refers to an implication (via the happy-face pin that Haruhi used to wear) that Yasumi is something akin to Haruhi in her elementary school days, personality-wise? I assume this will get explored further.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 25, 2011, 11:56:29 PMSeems to suggest that Haruhi actually stops tutoring Kyon completely for two-three days in a row.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 25, 2011, 11:56:29 PMIncidentally, the Kaurismäki trilogy is highly recommended as a... unique experience. Not necessarily as a good way to understand Finland, maybe? I'm not sure how those movies are viewed domestically (curious to hear sarsaparilla's opinion on this)... to me it looks like a directing style that deliberately tries to make Finns look alien and opaque.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI hadn't heard the Japanese meaning of 'shosho' before, only the slang Spanish one, which is....  Erm.  Anyway!  >_>;;

The literal Japanese definition seems to be 'here and there', which I gather from context must mean something about 'vacation', but this is not (I believe) a commonly known loanword.  I'd go with the clearer word

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI would suggest an em-dash in place of the comma in the second sentence

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMHeh, even Kyon wonders where the dramatic tension went. =_=

The longer I think about it, the more I realize that novels 9-11 (really, 10-11) just don't really sit well with me....

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI thought closed space instances were way down following Sigh.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMAnd it's not her 'not sure what expression to show' expression?

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMAmusing sidenote: Mountains are typically given the 'san' honorific (Ie., 'Fuji-san').

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMFridge horror: Kyon does so poorly at school because Haruhi wants to be able to offer him something.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMThis ... doesn't really feel like trouble finding its way to Kyon?

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMThat was a strangely cryptic and foreboding remark....

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI don't like Kyon's introspection that Haruhi's softening/opening up to people contrasted with her actually being colder/ruder to him than she was in the novels that went before this.  Something about that feels off....  Maybe Kyon's underestimating Haruhi's distraction?

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 09:28:06 AM"And remember, this is just for today. Failing to be present tomorrow is totally unacceptable and will incur a heavy penalty without exceptions!"

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMThe thing that really weirds me out is how much of this prologue maps to the opening for the third act of The Dream of....  Admittedly, this doesn't have the same horrifyingly squicky/dysfunctional elements that that thing did (really, really, I don't suggest reading it!).  So, I may be unsettled for no reason, just because that was evoked by a similar opening (second year summer vacation, things are ostensibly improving between Kyon/Haruhi but it's not really reflected well in their 'onscreen' interactions, and Haruhi's concealing some plan involving the upcoming vacation (didn't read far enough into Dream to find out what her plan was, there)).  I'm sure it's just a coincidence; those things aren't terribly specific.

Though, I suppose that you're both Finnish authors.  Is there some cultural appeal to the concept/setup I'm unaware of, perhaps?  Maybe it's a reference to a story I'm not familiar with?

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMSure it is -- Haruhi tosses the 'death penalty' around constantly.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMMinor note: The second year classes are closer to the clubroom -- I think it was pointed out in the last novels that Kyon/Koizumi had to leave the clubroom once Mikuru showed up to let her change (unless Kyon was delayed by walking to Haruhi).

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 09:28:06 AM"I see. Maybe I should have chosen the hanafuda pack instead?"

I couldn't even bother asking what Koizumi was insinuating with the oblique remark that he seemed to find somehow amusing.

Another unfamiliar loanword.  I stand by the suggestion of just working the definitions into the narrative, wherever possible. :)

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMthis is one of the reasons that I don't like Kyon never having dialog properly offset.  My first thought was, "Why is Kyon telling us something we already know?" not "Is this spoken, or thought?"

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI am not at all following either what Kyon isn't telling us, or what Tsuruya's not telling us.  I'll just say I find Tsuruya's attitude annoyingly condescending; I think she'd be a lot more vague instead of teasing/mocking.  And if she's trying to give Kyon hints ... eh.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMwas Mikuru's 'depression earlier in the year' refering to the Melancholy of Asahina Mikuru?  Otherwise, I'm not sure what incident that's alluding to (and probably, it could be slightly clarified a tiny bit), there.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:15:09 AM
I also want to make a quick note here that Tsuruya collecting her shoes and following Kyon is a very brief transition.  It's well handled, but I'm noticing that a lot of your sentences seem to be a bit too ... hmm.  I can say 'wordy'?  It feels like you're trying to perfectly describe every detail, and your sentences have generally grown quite a bit.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 05:01:22 AM
it actually bothered me that Haruhi even joked about Kyon not being part of the brigade anymore (part of why I considered her cold/rude to Kyon).  Death penalties, warnings of doom, complaints that he's always going to be the lowest ranking member, sure -- that's Haruhi all over.

But 'him not being there' even being on the table?  That didn't come up even when Kyon looked like he was going to punch her!

Quote from: HaruhiKyon! I'm not asking you to grab a pair of pom-pons and start jumping up and down in excitement, but you should at least be cheering for the home team instead of jeering!

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMActually, shousho is the name of a certain period of the solar calendar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaoshu) and marks the beginning of the 'hot season' (the literal translation is 'little heat'), thus the intended meaning of the sentence was "it's already hot before the 'official' date". It also constrains the time frame of the narrative, because the beginning of shousho never falls beyond July 8 on the Gregorian calendar.

I'll probably drop joujun, though, as it is largely redundant.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMSo far I've completely avoided dashes because I don't know whether they survive the FF.Net format butchering. Looks like I must conduct some experiments again. I already learned that it's possible to have proper sentence ending ellipses by inserting the coded character entity hellip followed by a dot. Still haven't found a way to make a clean section break, though.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMI was rather disappointed as well. My theory is that the author published book 9 without thinking the plot all the way through, and essentially wrote himself into a corner, which then translated into the long hiatus and essentially a rather weak conclusion. To be completely honest, one of my motives for writing this fic is exactly to see whether I can create something better than that, at least plot-wise.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMThat's my interpretation as well, that they were rare but not completely non-existent until the situation escalated during the 9-11 arc again. Here I'm postulating that after that they stopped completely (extrapolation, I know, but there's a rather plausible explanation for that).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMThat was a strangely cryptic and foreboding remark....

There isn't anything sinister lurking behind Tsuruya's comment, it's just a bit of foreshadowing for certain things that will eventually be discussed during the Florence arc, and are related to Asahina's character growth and status as a time traveler. Every member of the brigade will get some character growth during the story, even Koizumi. >_>

I know that I've written darker stuff before, but I want this story to be benign on all levels.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMThat is one of the unfortunate side effects of the artificial split of the chapter into two halves. Haruhi is planning something specific for the next day (and hence this comment:

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 09:28:06 AM"And remember, this is just for today. Failing to be present tomorrow is totally unacceptable and will incur a heavy penalty without exceptions!"

) and may come through as somewhat prickly, when in fact she's trying her hardest to avoid telegraphing her intentions (and the plan is also the reason for why she's skipping the meeting). The next day will have a completely different mood. Though, since Kyon has a plan of his own it becomes a bit of a Xanatos pileup -- the mental image I've been having for this chapter is that both of them are playing high stakes poker and bluffing like pirates.... But I'm still trying to keep the situation balanced.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMYes, the first half of the chapter doesn't show Haruhi in the best possible light, but my sincere hope is that it will look better in retrospect. There's one dangerously cute moment for Haruhi in the second half, but because of Kyon's (unintentional or deliberate, take your pick) obliviousness, it may require a bit of reading between the lines to notice it.

Also, the impression depends a lot on the tone of voice Haruhi is using, something that is not properly conveyed in the written format. I tried to use Kyon's observations to suggest that Haruhi is not being aggressively confrontative but I may have failed. Will have to meditate on the issue.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMAs a completely unrelated side note, the author's pen name 'Perkele' means a particular supernatural being in the Finnish folklore, later identified with the Devil when Christianity was imported to Finland. It's also the most common and well-known Finnish swearword, about as flexible in its various applications as the F-word is in English, although instead of a sexual undertone the Finnish word indicates aggression -- it's possible to tell how enraged somebody is by the length of the rolling 'r' sound in the word (the longer the more enraged, to comical extremes).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMMinor note: The second year classes are closer to the clubroom -- I think it was pointed out in the last novels that Kyon/Koizumi had to leave the clubroom once Mikuru showed up to let her change (unless Kyon was delayed by walking to Haruhi).

Hmm ... I'll have to see how that might change some details. Good point.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 05:01:22 AMit actually bothered me that Haruhi even joked about Kyon not being part of the brigade anymore (part of why I considered her cold/rude to Kyon).  Death penalties, warnings of doom, complaints that he's always going to be the lowest ranking member, sure -- that's Haruhi all over.

But 'him not being there' even being on the table?  That didn't come up even when Kyon looked like he was going to punch her!

Honestly, I wasn't even aware of the possibility that there could be any actual threat in there. Maybe it's exactly because in my mind Kyon dropping / getting dropped out of the brigade is something completely unthinkable. Ah, a blind spot. -_- I ... will rephrase the sentence. How about:

Quote from: HaruhiKyon! I'm not asking you to grab a pair of pom-pons and start jumping up and down in excitement, but you should at least be cheering for the home team instead of jeering!

The implied mental image lifts the overall mood of the discussion ... for me, in any case. ^_^

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 25, 2011, 09:28:06 AM"I see. Maybe I should have chosen the hanafuda pack instead?"

I couldn't even bother asking what Koizumi was insinuating with the oblique remark that he seemed to find somehow amusing.

Another unfamiliar loanword.  I stand by the suggestion of just working the definitions into the narrative, wherever possible. :)

That was a bit of a bilingual genius bonus, and only made sense if the reader noticed that while on the surface Kyon and Koizumi were talking about the card game they were playing, they were actually talking about relationships (with plausible deniability should anybody point out the fact). This is one of the devices that will be used repeatedly in the story.

Hanafuda is a Japanese card set with a somewhat different selection of cards. Koizumi picked the western set and they played five-card draw, an entry-level game for that set. The unvoiced thought was that had he picked a hanafuda pack instead, they would probably have ended playing another game known as koi-koi, the name of which in that context means 'continue', but could be understood as something else altogether.... (Gotta love the incredible ambiguity of the Japanese language.)

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMI believe that Kyon got the reference. ^_^

Ok, I know that I'm being very circumspect here, but I don't know how to make the issue slightly more obvious without totally blowing it up. I thought that it would be completely acceptable if the reader just skips that comment as random gratuitous Japanese.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMOk, that's a stylistic error I've been making all the time, and must learn to correct.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 01:09:16 AMI am not at all following either what Kyon isn't telling us, or what Tsuruya's not telling us.  I'll just say I find Tsuruya's attitude annoyingly condescending; I think she'd be a lot more vague instead of teasing/mocking.  And if she's trying to give Kyon hints ... eh.

Ok, not the message I was trying to get through. Will rephrase.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMThere may be several factors contributing to my rambling. First, a typical Finnish word maps to several words or even a complete sentence in English, and thus a Finnish sentence can easily balloon into a paragraph in English if all the details are translated verbatim. Second, the Finnish language naturally leans toward extremely long, complicated sentences and some of that style necessarily carries over when I write English prose, as the patterns of thinking have been ingrained in my mind.

Even past such 'localization' concerns, when I slip into character and go through a particular scene, the experience is just as vivid and detailed as if I was watching it on TV, and there are lots of insignificant details that I never write down despite remembering them. So, I'm already cutting out a lot of stuff, and keep doing it on every round of revision. Sometimes it's just hard to decide what is irrelevant and what isn't (my subconsciousness has a habit of surprising me with seemingly superfluous details that on a closer inspection aren't).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMAnyway, that was a lot to digest, I'll do my best to get everything in. I very much appreciate the feedback.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 08:20:34 AMAnd, about Kyon's voice. I've noticed that he mostly draws his similes from a pool of culturally specific themes, with some math and physics thrown in. I've tried to emulate it by utilizing a list of kigo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kigo). Getting it nailed down perfectly is beyond my abilities, so I'm trying to come up with something that is similar in style if not the specific content.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
In my memory, dashes tend to be fine, as long as there aren't more than three of them.  A normal dash is a dash, but if the special em-dash character isn't availible for what ever reason, a double-dash suffices in plaintext.  Though, I appreciate your efforts in making ff.net display things correctly.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
Hard-coding <hr> tags should work....

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
More to the point -- do you have any interest in maintaining your own webspace?

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PMthe situation feels incredibly unbalanced.  Haruhi's plan is some looming phenomenal thing that Tsuruya slips up on warning him about twice.  Kyon's plan makes Tsuruya giggle.  And then (if I follow): 'We're going on an international trip' vs 'I went to our mutual friend's place and dug up a plant'.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PMThe only reason I say this is because Tsuruya hints at something, tells Kyon not to think about it, and then hints at it again.  Considering that Kyon generally looks up to her (he asked her opinion on if he was a 'good person'), and that she should remember that Kyon was effectively the slowest one when it came to the winter mystery....  I think she's trying to be helpful and encouraging, but in that case, her hints could just be a bit more optimistic, while remaining vague.  Then it comes across as, "If you don't get it, things will work out," instead of, "There's something you don't know, and I want to remind you of that without explaining it!"

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PMThere's an opportunity just before Kyon and Haruhi part to have her show concern for his wellfare and double-back on her remark about questioning his worthiness to be in the brigade--  That's a pretty ideal place for her to badger Kyon about his study habits (possibly even, depending on how you want to play things, grabbing his wrist and holding him in place while she lectures him on which pages he should read, or the like).  It doesn't have to be the most endearing thing in the world, since you've got plans for that, but something that runs counter to the previous remark would address both of those situations simultaneously.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
Hard-coding <hr> tags should work....

That's what I've been doing, but I'd very much prefer an empty line as the section break. So far the site has stubbornly refused to co-operate with me on this issue.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 12:21:30 PM
More to the point -- do you have any interest in maintaining your own webspace?

I don't know how to do that, or how difficult or expensive it is ... or who would even want to visit such a page. At the moment I'm content to be a freeloader on sites maintained by other people.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PM_{I'm glad that you're tolerating me on this site despite me being, well, me.}

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PMActually, it's not at all like that. Tsuruya genuinely thinks that Kyon's idea is good (and I agree with her, it's the second tile in the chain of dominoes) and doesn't know anything about Haruhi's plan (other than using her intuition to suspect that there is one). Haruhi's plan is not at all related to the summer vacation, and then ... something else happens. But I'm getting ahead of myself here.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PMTsuruya doesn't speak anything about Haruhi's plan on the first meeting, and doesn't return to the topics of the first meeting during the second one, these are two completely separate issues. There are many more moving parts here than in my previous fics, and most of them aren't even intended to be visible at this point.

I'll be taking a closer look at everything she says, to avoid misinterpretations, as I'm only trying to be vague, not intentionally misleading.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 26, 2011, 04:37:32 PMHmm ... it probably won't fit in in that particular form, but it might be possible to adjust it a bit. I'll see what I can do.

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 05:24:40 PM
They're actually opposed to the extra space -- won't allow more than one newline between lines of text (or characters).  I'm not sure why they strip out what they do -- URLs I can understand, as that prevents spammers, but what's wrong with a line of dashes or stars?  Are they afraid people are going to post ASCII art, or something?

Quote from: Brian on October 26, 2011, 05:24:40 PMI have a lot of pull with the administrators of the site (Hi, Drac, Rez, Hal!), so it's not too much trouble to ask to get a free account set up for you as well

Quotesometimes pressing a certain topic for two or three days in a row and then forgetting the whole thing for several days, so that I already started to suspect that she had lost all interest in the project until she picked up the books again.

Quotebeyond the abilities of most students, myself including.

Quoteit would probably be something that she would do without even noticing it. It would be all in a day's work for her, considering all the other things that she had created inadvertently,

Quoteor the literature club editorial column that according to Asahina-san contained the founding principles of time traveling technology.

Quoteshe did on her own volition,

QuoteThose concepts only tried to artificially constrain her by hiding the issue inside an arbitrary box with a convenient label on it, while missing the most crucial aspects.

QuoteHaruhi stared me with the unflinching focus of a martial artist who had just issued a formal challenge to an opponent of questionable prowess. So, humankind as a whole was still falling short of Haruhi's extremely rigorous standards, but there wasn't much I could do about it. On the other hand, Haruhi certainly could but she hadn't tried anything as drastic as completely rewriting the world after that one fateful night, the details of which I couldn't possibly think about too closely in the current situation. Since then a bit over a year had already passed, and while there had been several unpleasant and some truly dangerous incidents along the way, it was my steadfast opinion that on the average the change was for the better. In the end I made only one statement that was undeniably true.

Quote from: arbitrarily revised
So, humankind as a whole was still falling short of Haruhi's extremely rigorous standards, but there wasn't much I could do about it. Haruhi, on the other hand, certainly could; but ever since her attempt to rewrite the world that one fateful night, the details of which I couldn't possibly think about too closely in the current situation, a year had passed without any {???further attempts in that particular direction??? -- or something like that}. In spite of a series of unpleasant and truly dangerous incidents along the way, it was my steadfast opinion that, all in all, things had been changing for the better.

{paragraph break sets up return from reverie}

In the end, I settled for {one statement / the one statement -- not sure which nuance you want - the latter implies Kyon thinks the situation is a bit complicated but at least there's one thing about it which is obvious} that was undeniably true.

Quote from: sarsaparillaI was rather disappointed as well. My theory is that the author published book 9 without thinking the plot all the way through, and essentially wrote himself into a corner, which then translated into the long hiatus and essentially a rather weak conclusion.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PMAnd only now (having used a semicolon in the above paragraph) do I notice that there actually isn't a single semicolon anywhere in your prologue. Nor anywhere in the first 7 chapters of Shadow (I didn't bother looking further) which suggests that you may not be aware of its uses. (Or, I don't know, you may be aware of it but have some aversion to using it yourself?)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PMI'm not confident enough to give an entire lecture about the semicolon like Brian does with the ellipsis; however, you can probably find an article detailing the basic uses. The list of thing you can do with definitely do with it starts with using it as a 'milder' version of the period; this is useful if you want to tie two sentences a little closer together without using 'and'. It's also used in conjunction with a number of conjunctions such as 'however', 'thus', and similar; however, to get a detailed description you'll have to Google some grammar guide which is more authoritative than I am.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PMIf you wish to go completely overboard, the semicolon can be abused in truly ridiculous ways, such as replacing the comma to produce a list of clauses which in turn contain lists of A, B, and C which does D; lists of letters starting at Q, or R, or even S; or perhaps, rather than a list, some other construction requiring a comma.

[...]

I probably haven't seen enough Evangelion to be sufficiently desensitized to the sudden use of cross imagery?

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PM
what you mean by "couldn't possibly think about too closely". No matter how much I try, I just can't figure out if it means that Kyon doesn't want to remember the details of that *ahem* embarrassingly personal incident, or if it means that he would have done well to pay attention to it given what is about to happen.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PMAnd only now (having used a semicolon in the above paragraph) do I notice that there actually isn't a single semicolon anywhere in your prologue. Nor anywhere in the first 7 chapters of Shadow (I didn't bother looking further) which suggests that you may not be aware of its uses. (Or, I don't know, you may be aware of it but have some aversion to using it yourself?)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 26, 2011, 09:58:33 PMEnglish isn't even my first language, either!

Quote<p><i>Shousho</i> &mdash; the official start of the hot season according to the solar calendar &mdash; was still ahead,

QuoteSometimes she would press a certain topic for two or three days in a row and then forget the whole thing for just as long;

Quotelast class of the day that happened to be physics.

Quote"Kyon? The next exam will have a problem or two from these last two pages, so make sure that you've got them covered."

QuoteHaruhi stared me as if I had just expressed a desire to join an underwater trombone band.

QuoteHere, let me show.

QuoteSee, all these question are the same.

Quote&hellip;and we get two legs and one arm from acceleration, you only have to add the height and mass to complete it. There's your formula."

Quotebut if you have something in your mind then spit it out.

QuoteKoizumi walked through the door and picked up a pack of cards.

Quotetold that I shouldn't do anything.

QuoteMaybe I should have chosen the <i>hanafuda</i> card set instead?

Quotedrinking tea after the school hours.

Quotetoo late to back off now as I was here already, wasn't it?

QuoteOh boy, I didn't need Haruhi to task me with pointless errands any more because after a full year of training I managed do it all by myself!

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AM
Seems a bit too calm and bureaucratic for Haruhi... well, actually no. If they've been doing this for a while, she might not feel the need to end every order she gives with an exclamation mark.

This might also be part of her overall mood, that she's giving this line thoughtfully (with a tone as though she was reminding herself of something) rather than being brash and assertive as per usual.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AMYep, definitely goes a long way towards explaining how Haruhi could derive basic time plane theory without even noticing :-D

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AMHmm... trying to be certain of your intent here... is what you were trying to get "because, after a full year of training, I managed to do it (invent pointless errands) all by myself!".

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AMSorry if getting an entire new round of possible revisions for your already-revised chapter frustrates you.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AMOh, and in answer to your question, my first language is Russian, though I don't identify very well with the modern incarnation of that culture.

Quote"Don't tell me that you are again planning to sign us up as a team for the tournament?"

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AM

Quote<p><i>Shousho</i> &mdash; the official start of the hot season according to the solar calendar &mdash; was still ahead,

To avoid having Kyon sound like a dictionary, I'd say something like "Shousho -- the official start of the hot season, if you go by the solar calendar -- was still ahead,". Which is still a bit dry... I'm trying to rack my brains to figure out how this can be made even more casual.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 28, 2011, 11:34:21 AMOh, and in answer to your question, my first language is Russian, though I don't identify very well with the modern incarnation of that culture. (It explains, for instance, how I get to know so many intolerant people, making me *head against wall* somewhat tone-deaf to the more nuanced Western approach to such things.)

(EDITED FOR CLARITY) As for my French, it is barely adequate for me to walk into a restaurant in Montreal and make an order, without the waiter switching to English on me. This is in fact slightly more challenging than walking into a restaurant in, say, Paris, because from my experience Parisians prefer to struggle to communicate with you in French, over struggling to communicate in English, whereas people in Montreal all know English anyways, and prefer to just do whatever it takes not to waste their time with you. Whereas if you force Parisians into speaking English, they more often than not go into full-on Tourist Hate Mode. Particularly if you're there in tourist season.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMBeyond fixing stuff that was broken, I added one completely new scene after the last class which accomplishes several things. It postpones Kyon's arrival to the club room as needed, allows Haruhi to make a more positive contribution in this first half (combined with some adjustment to her lines elsewhere her attitude feels much better now), shows that Haruhi's unorthodox tutoring method is not just an informed ability, and provides a somewhat interesting window into her way of thinking. Oh, and in my humble opinion it contains some of the funniest lines in the half-chapter as well. ^_^

In retrospect, the worst problem with the split first half was that Haruhi was completely passive. This was supposed to be compensated by her actions during the second half, but now that the revised version has the additional scene, the remaining problems look minor in comparison.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMKoizumi stopped talking, and I watched other students around the perimeter of the field for a while before concentrating on the game again. It looked like the match was wrapping up, and unless the visiting team could make an unexpected comeback, the home team would take an easy win after the next half-inning. I wasn't particularly interested in a game with an obvious outcome, so I stood up and headed back to the main building. Koizumi was in no hurry and decided to stay through the end of the match, so as I walked away he just reminded that we'd be seeing each other after school hours again.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMHaruhi, on the other hand, certainly could; but she hadn't attempted anything as drastic as completely rewriting the world after that one fateful night, the details of which I couldn't possibly think about too closely in this situation without risking a radical change in the overall atmosphere.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMEventually, the bell rang to announce the end of the last class of the day that happened to be physics.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AM"You're supposed to remember the principle, not the formulas. Here, let me show."

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AM"Oh right, Kyon? I've got some errands to run so there won't be an official meeting today. Tell the others that they can leave whenever they want."

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AM"Well ... I'm already preparing tea. Maybe we could stay at least until it's ready?"

That sounded like a good idea. It would be a real pity to let it go to waste, especially since it was made by Asahina-san.

Koizumi walked through the door and picked up a pack of cards.

"In that case, how about playing some quick game while we wait? As there are four of us here today, we could try bridge this time."

"Um ... what is that?"

Seeing Asahina-san's confused expression, Koizumi chuckled.

"I was just joking, please ignore me. I am afraid that it would take too long to go through the rules, anyway."

Quote from: suggestion"Well ... I'm already preparing tea. Maybe we could stay at least until it's ready?"

That sounded like a good idea. It would be a real pity to let it go to waste, especially since it was made by Asahina-san.

Koizumi walked through the door and picked up a pack of cards.  "In that case, how about playing some quick game while we wait? As there are four of us here today, we could try bridge this time."

"Um ... what is that?"

Seeing Asahina-san's confused expression, Koizumi chuckled.  "I was just joking, please ignore me. I am afraid that it would take too long to go through the rules, anyway."

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMAfter I had finished my tea I placed the cup back on the table, and when Asahina-san asked whether I wanted some more I declined.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMTsuruya giggled on the other side of the line as I looked up at the small camera almost completely concealed in a recess above the gate. I could hear steps from the other side of the wall and a middle-aged female servant appeared on the other side of the gate. She opened the gate for me and led me through the front yard to the entrance hall where Tsuruya was waiting, still in her school uniform.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMHowever, I still had to walk all the way back to North High carrying my new trophy, and although the load wasn't terribly heavy I was already tired and sweating profusely by the time I finally reached the club room and could put down the pot and its contents. Oh boy, I didn't need Haruhi to task me with pointless errands any more because after a full year of training I managed do it all by myself! I poured some water in the pot and left the club room the second and final time for the day.

Having completed the task that had unwittingly convinced myself to undertake, I went home for dinner. Nothing worth mentioning happened that evening, at least as far as I was aware of, and I went to bed in a cautiously optimistic mood. On the whole, it hadn't been too bad a day, and if there wasn't anything significantly worse looming in the horizon then this might turn out to be a perfectly fine summer after all. One can always hope, right?

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 03:03:55 PMThis is the intended interpretation. I think that it was Brian who pointed it out during the initial round of discussing the summary, that Haruhi's tutoring is something that just works. I agreed, and decided to make it the kind of interaction that both of them actually, if not overtly, enjoy without feeling an urge to turn it into an arm wrestling match, and that then leads to other things.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 03:03:55 PMThere isn't any support for it in the canon, but whenever I try to map Haruhi's thought patterns I imagine that she has some form of abstract - visual synesthesia, which would certainly manifest itself in rather peculiar ways.

In fact, Haruhi's explanation of the potential energy formula actually makes sense, at least for a very particular definition of the word 'sense'. ^_^

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 03:03:55 PMAbsolutely not. As I have mentioned elsewhere, writing in English feels like drawing while blindfolded to me. I can believe that I'm doing fine but I'm not able to verify it myself, so I'm infinitely grateful for all feedback, and hopefully also learning, bit by bit.

QuoteI notice that the entire conversation in the club room has almost no speech indicators.  I ... think this is something I've bugged Muphrid about before (or possibly, actually, someone else on the FFML) -- it's a valid stylistic option; I'm just noting it.  There are a few places where the speaker must be infered through context because it is unclear otherwise, however.  One thing I really must suggest is not having the speaker's actions and dialog in separate paragraphs -- putting them together makes it much clearer who is speaking.  Also, if we're looking at the baka-tsukai translation specifically, it's probably important to note that their translation is servicable, but not the best example of proper English.  How much effort we want to spend on adhering to that style vs. the one in the official translations....

Quote from: Brian on October 28, 2011, 06:39:17 PM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 28, 2011, 08:37:29 AMHaruhi, on the other hand, certainly could; but she hadn't attempted anything as drastic as completely rewriting the world after that one fateful night, the details of which I couldn't possibly think about too closely in this situation without risking a radical change in the overall atmosphere.

That semi-colon is immediately trailed by an interjection.  (I do this frequently when I write -- it's grammatically incorrect, so I do it stylistically; one of the benefits of understanding the rules is knowing when you can break them >_>;;.)  I don't think it works exceptionally well in this instance, however.  In fact, those two sentences have opposing themes, so I don't think they should be connected; semi-colons attach phrases and sentences that are similar, or basicaly restate and clarify the same or similar points; while I could see how this might be applicable here, it would probably work better with a third (somewhat more neutral) sentence in the same theme to connect them.

My suggestion would be to drop the 'but', though then it feels a little stilted.

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:20:29 AM
To touch on this very briefly for those who were not on IRC (there I am 'Fujiwara Masamichi' at work and 'Suou Kuyou' at home, Arakawa ;) (someone else claimed the 'brian' nick when I was offline for a year+)):

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:20:29 AM
One of the major benefits of posting corrections and commentary in a public forum is that if you are incorrect, someone else can step in and make an interjection.  I could link an unspeakable number of posts to the FFML where I got something wrong and was corrected.  To err is human, and this is a forum where we're all looking to have those checked.  I personally like to think that this community 'safety net' is something to encourage more commentary, so I'm all for it. :)

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:20:29 AM
In this case, I call 'no harm; no foul'. ;)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 06:28:34 AMIs 'Fujisawa' a contraction of 'Fujiwara Masamichi', then? (Or is that a typo?)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 06:28:34 AM(Particularly since I *think* I saw both nicks logged in at the same time. I presume you just keep an IRC window constantly open on your home computer even when you're physically at work...)

Also, was your decision to have those nicknames pre- or post- Novel 11? It seems a bit fitting given how we found out Fujiwara (um... if that really isn't a typo...) and Kuyou were collaborating a little closer than expected.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 06:28:34 AMNo, I just found it sort of funny to see someone pontificate on the benefits of semicolons like that, then immediately go on to misuse them, even more funny that 'someone' turned out to be myself, and I hope people share some of that amusement.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 06:28:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:20:29 AM
In this case, I call 'no harm; no foul'. ;)

Exactly; we're not writing mission-critical software for hospitals, here.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 10:12:30 AM
Ah, so the stupid fancy word for that is dimensional analysis. (Though during my own education I wasn't ever asked to do it in terms of arms and legs.)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 10:12:30 AMWhat does Haruhi do for constant factors? (It took physicists way too long to figure out that to get energy to stay conserved they needed to write kinetic energy as E = 1/2 m v^2)

Does she have some notion that kinetic energy is only half as <some adjective> as potential energy?

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 10:23:29 AM
(goes to wiki) I see ... yes, that's the thing. It's a whole separate discipline? I wonder why it wasn't even mentioned in high school.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 10:23:29 AM
I didn't think it out that far other than realizing that there'd have to be a triangle somewhere.

QuoteThis discussion is going to weird places....

Quote from: How Year1!Haruhi reacts to attempts by people to talk to her
「ねえ、昨日のドラマ見た？　九時からのやつ」
「見てない」
「えー？　なんでー？」
「知らない」
「いっぺん見てみなよ、あーでも途中《とちゅう》からじゃ解《わか》んないか。そうそう、だったら教えてあげようか、今までのあらすじ」
「うるさい」
　こんな感じ。

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:39:55 AM
I interpet Kuyou (the character I play on IRC) as per K:BDH; a benign presence that's just incredibly alien, not generically unfathomable evil out to kill Haruhi.

QuoteAlso, after looking at the original Japanese version of the novels, I notice that blank lines in between paragraphs are used extremely sparingly. Mostly the dialogue-heavy scenes run together as follows:

QuoteConcerning my style, I don't leave things unexplained and vague with the intention to somehow tease the readers, I just want to leave room for personal interpretations and little details that can easily be overlooked, but which provide serendipitous surprises if somebody notices them. As an example, here's a detail that nobody has commented so far:

On the baseball field, instead of the match, Kyon uses some time to watch other students around the field, then suddenly decides that he isn't interested in the game any more, and goes back to the class. His first comment to Haruhi when he gets there? "Didn't see you around."

My version of Kyon has rather formidable powers of obfuscation, at least concerning certain issues, and it's only through small slips like this that his true thoughts can be inferred. ^_^ I absolutely don't mind if nobody notices these kinds of details, just writing them in pleases me greatly.

Quote from: Muphrid on October 29, 2011, 02:17:55 PM

QuoteAlso, after looking at the original Japanese version of the novels, I notice that blank lines in between paragraphs are used extremely sparingly. Mostly the dialogue-heavy scenes run together as follows:

What is the significance of the lines with smaller or faded quotation marks?

Quote「見てない」

Quote途中《とちゅう》

Quote from: Muphrid on October 29, 2011, 02:17:55 PM
My university mandates that almost all the undergraduates take two introductory physics courses--one in mechanics and another in electromagnetism.  On the exams, the instructors tell us as graders to take off as much as 40% for an incorrect answer with the wrong dimensions (and for treating vectors as scalars, among other things).

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 11:36:25 AM

Quote from: How Year1!Haruhi reacts to attempts by people to talk to her
「ねえ、昨日のドラマ見た？　九時からのやつ」
「見てない」

Quote「ねえ、昨日のドラマ見た？　九時からのやつ」
「見てない」
「えー？　なんでー？」
「知らない」
「いっぺん見てみなよ、あーでも途中《とちゅう》からじゃ解《わか》んないか。そうそう、だったら教えてあげようか、今までのあらすじ」
「うるさい」
　こんな感じ。

Quote「ねえ、昨日のドラマ見た？　九時からのやつ」

「見てない」

「えー？　なんでー？」

「知らない」

「いっぺん見てみなよ、あーでも途中《とちゅう》からじゃ解《わか》んないか。そうそう、だったら教えてあげようか、今までのあらすじ」

「うるさい」

　こんな感じ。

Quote「ねえ、昨日のドラマ見た？　九時からのやつ」

「見てない」

「えー？　なんでー？」the foolish person would inevitably go on to ask.

  Haruhi would scowl to indicate to the one accosting her that they just weren't getting it.

「知らない」

「いっぺん見てみなよ、」some of the particularly audacious challengers might persist, although at this point it would be akin to trying to obtain the attention of a brick wall,「あーでも途中《とちゅう》からじゃ解《わか》んないか。そうそう、だったら教えてあげようか、今までのあらすじ」

「うるさい」

　こんな感じ。

Quote from: Muphrid on October 29, 2011, 04:00:04 PM
I think those blank lines are conventional only on the internet, really.  I snagged an excerpt from the Brown website with a portion of the first novel.  Dialogue there is on separate lines, but there aren't any blank lines between, just an indent for a new paragraph like you'd expect.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 04:25:05 PMA perfect description of the markdown customization that Jon made for Brian.

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 05:12:56 PM
http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/

This is markdown, which is the basic utility.  It converts raw text into .html; that whole page is written in markdown (though, it also uses .css, so it takes a little bit of doing to have it output stuff that complex).

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 06:12:28 PMMm-hmm. It still looks mostly like something that converts from one standard typography into another, custom defined typography. I was thinking about something that doesn't by default use any typography, with element ordering the only important thing, and then tags that tell what kind of elements they are, not as in layout but as in meaning. So, it would look something like:

(default=kyon)
(tell; actor=haruhi)Haruhi waved the document describing the new syntax like a tribune ready to decree the new law of the land.
(talk:haruhi)This is the best thing since the invention of water, because it's made by me!
(talk:koizumi)One couldn't expect less from our illustrious leader.
(think)Oh no, don't encourage her!
(talk)Besides, water was discovered, not invented. Wait, never mind, that doesn't help the issue in any way.

Might be hard to define a syntax that is flexible enough for all possible uses, though. Oh well, must make a mental note and see whether something eventually pops up.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 03:40:50 PMIt's even more pronounced when I load the full novel and skim back and forth through it - dialogue is tightly packed onto the screen, so the absence of frequent observations by the narrator isn't particularly noticeable, and a blank line becomes a pretty drastic way of indicating a major break in the action. In comparison, the translation I have sometimes starts to feel like it's sleepwalking a little.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 29, 2011, 02:29:12 PMHmm... mandatory physics.. pretty advanced policy. 40% for wrong dimensions is about right if somehow the quantity of the answer is still correct, but unless it's obviously just a typo at the end , it generally indicates a failure to understand exactly what you're measuring, and would probably result in even more marks taken off.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 02:10:59 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 29, 2011, 06:39:55 AM
I interpet Kuyou (the character I play on IRC) as per K:BDH; a benign presence that's just incredibly alien, not generically unfathomable evil out to kill Haruhi.

Just noticed this one.

Actually, it is -- at least in principle -- possible to argue that canon!Kuyou has a case of extreme blue and orange morality. Specifically, she doesn't seem to get (among other things) the concept of individuality. Add to that the fact that data beings don't seem to share the view on death with humans either, so from her point of view what Fujiwara asked her to do might not differ from a situation where a human is asked to pour a quart of water to the pot while cooking. It's hard to say which way Kuyou will go in the canon but I'd be rather disappointed to see her turned into a simple 'evil' character. Asakura is similarly ... disruptive, and ax-crazy on top of that, and there's still a lot of mileage to get from that character.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 09:44:54 AM
I must say that the discussion is already at this point delving deeper into the finer points of writing than I had hoped to ever reach. It's a very good thing, and as I'm perhaps more interested in staying consistent through the story than in hitting some particular target of 'correctness' (well, I do try to use correct language as well, but the issue looks a bit fuzzy to me), I'm willing to revise these first chapters as many times as needed until they are within acceptable bounds for everybody, and then try to carry that particular style to the future chapters.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 09:44:54 AMBasically, the fundamental issue seems to be: is it possible to separate the original author's personal style, overall Japanese (light novel) style, and any artifacts introduced in the translation process from each other, in order to achieve as accurate an imitation as possible, or if the answer is negative, which style would manage to capture the original intent? I have been aware of the question but I never thought that I'd get to a level where it becomes a major obstacle.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 09:44:54 AMOn the baseball field, instead of the match, Kyon uses some time to watch other students around the field, then suddenly decides that he isn't interested in the game any more, and goes back to the class. His first comment to Haruhi when he gets there? "Didn't see you around."

Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 29, 2011, 09:44:54 AMThe base units of the SI system are various appendages. Meter is an arm, second is a leg and kilogram is a head (not mentioned in the passage but ampere would be a wing and kelvin a tentacle :p). Derived units are creatures made out of these basic building blocks, put above if multiplied and below if divided. There was some computer game where you could make arbitrary creatures out of such body parts, I think.

Because Haruhi likes energy, she equates it with the human shape. The unit of energy is kg m² / s² which in Haruhi-speak turns to "one head and two arms above, two legs below -- that's a human". The problem that Haruhi is using as the example gives mass and height (and implies gravitational acceleration) and asks for potential energy to be solved. Since the units must match on both sides of the equation, the problem turns into a task of making a 'human' shape out of the given parts that are arm-above-two-legs-below (acceleration), arm-above (height) and head-above (mass). The correct answer is just to put them together as they are, and thus the formula for potential energy is E = m g h You don't have to remember the formula because there's only one possible combination of mass, acceleration and height that has the same unit as energy, so it must the correct one.

To be quite honest, that is more or less the way I avoided learning anything in high school physics classes, though back then I wasn't aware that others didn't see things the way I did. I was just mystified why the teacher would want to waste hours on end trying to get us remember some arbitrary formulas through rote memorization and goofy mnemonics. >_>

Quote from: poorly formatted script exampleKyon: "Old tricks are the best tricks."
Haruhi: *eyeing Kyon doubtfully*  "So, why is it that script format is specifically banned on ff.net, then?  And doesn't the community look down on it for some reason?"
Nagato: "That is because script fanfiction was popular in the early days of fanfiction, when beginning authors often held onto the belief that their works might some day be adapted by their franchises, especially in some of the first communities and groups to write fanfiction:  Star Trek fans, circulating their stories through their fanzines and in real-print format at conventions.
Mikuru: "A...are you a Trekkie, Nagato-san?"
Koizumi: "I note that Nagato isn't performing her action as 'deadpan', and Mikuru wasn't as 'charmingly bewildered'.
Kyon: "Yours isn't 'condescending', either; those are inferred by default."
Nagato: *continuing at though uninterrupted* "Many earlier fanfiction for anime also used script format to try and capture the feel of the show.  The author of this specific bit has something of an aversion to script format because on the FFML specifically, 'script format' was considered something only done in the early days of the list, before the membership grasped at the base of the literary monolith that was--
Haruhi: *nodding; blasts 'Also sprach Zarathustra' on a nearby sound system, prompting Mikuru to jump and hide behind Kyon*
Nagato: *unperturbed* "proper grammar and punctuation.  From there, the list populace (and fandom in general), shifted away from script format, labeling it as too limited and generally 'not as good' as prose."
Haruhi: "Speaking of author bias, though...." *pauses to turn off sound system*  "What's with _even more_ picking on Koizumi?"
Kyon: *evasive* "I ... have no idea what you're--  Look!  It's a convenient change of subject!"
Munemoto Hiromasu: *falls through the ceiling, crashes to the floor; pained* "...ow."

QuoteArriving at the class room, I noticed that Haruhi had again been faster than me. She was looking out of the window as usual, but unlike yesterday there was a large sports bag under her desk. There wouldn't be PE today, so it had to be something else.

QuoteThus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me but I was pretty certain that I recognized her. I hadn't seen her since last April, so what was she doing here now? I looked around but couldn't see the other brigade members nearby; after a moment of hesitation I decided to pursue the unexpected person, as her presence bothered me more than anything else that I had seen today. There were certain questions I wanted to ask from her.

QuoteThus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me but I was pretty certain that I recognized her. I hadn't seen her since last April, so what was she doing here now? I looked around but couldn't see the other brigade members nearby; after a moment of hesitation I decided to pursue the unexpected person, as her presence bothered me more than anything else that I had seen today. There were certain questions I wanted to ask from her.

Quote"You're supposed to support your brigade commander when she needs help!"

QuoteWe took a local train back to Kouyouen and retrieved our school bags from the storage locker. That reminded me &mdash; had I carried this heavy bag the whole evening for no reason whatsoever?

QuoteI stopped on the bridge to appreciate the unexpected sight and stood there in momentary contemplation when I heard somebody approaching from the direction of the shrines, running. The person soon came in clear view and I realized that I had subconsciously recognized her just by the sound of her steps. Come to think about it, who else would run around at a place like this?

Quote from: Muphrid on November 18, 2011, 05:28:03 PMI did feel that the abundance of Japanese might've been a bit high around the part with the fortunes, but not glaringly so.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 18, 2011, 05:28:03 PMNevertheless, I must wonder--is Haruhi's real wish to thank John Smith or to, say, involve Kyon with that and make him part of a secret, part of something she holds close to her heart?  Maybe it's both.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 17, 2011, 05:57:57 PMAs I have set some very specific goals for this part, I would be very grateful to hear about any thoughts that it evokes past purely technical aspects.

Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:57:49 AMI ... have to admit, I don't like this character.

Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 11:57:49 AMI think I have to stop here.  That's fine; I'm not able to offer much good commentary anyway, and I'm confident you'll be able to write the story you're trying to without my help.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 19, 2011, 02:33:29 PM
I read into the conversation about things Haruhi looked forward to that she feels differently about as fairly neutral-positive, as Haruhi was willing to look to Kyon for advice and consider the possibility, even if only to herself, that her own priorities had changed.

QuoteI've noticed that some of the things I used to look forward to feel rather insignificant now, and instead, some other things have become more important. Why is that so, shouldn't important things stay important regardless? Otherwise, aren't they something that only looks important but really isn't?

QuoteAnd even then, if we just do whatever we've always done, then doesn't it mean that we're not really free, and are held prisoners by our own habits instead? Shouldn't we face each challenge as if we were seeing everything the very first time, without any prejudices? Isn't that the only way to be truly independent?

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 19, 2011, 03:27:09 PMThe whole chapter is written four layers deep, deriving the form of each successive layer from the one underneath it until the surface layer is reached; that's why it was such a complex effort to put together, as I had to keep track of the causes and consequences of each layer separately. I didn't even expect anybody to immediately see through all four, but if people get stuck on the very first layer it suggests that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong; most likely the whole idea is flawed if it irritates people instead of engaging them into an intellectual exercise.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 19, 2011, 03:27:09 PMAs an example, let's take a peek at what happens on layer two in this scene. When Haruhi says:

QuoteI've noticed that some of the things I used to look forward to feel rather insignificant now, and instead, some other things have become more important. Why is that so, shouldn't important things stay important regardless? Otherwise, aren't they something that only looks important but really isn't?

she actually means:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I know that a year ago I wished for the world to revolve around me, but right now I'd be content with being the center of your world. I want to hear you telling me that it's okay.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 19, 2011, 03:27:09 PMBut as I said, this whole thing may be a giant train wreck if I have erred too far on the side of "readers are geniuses". If that's the case then the story is most likely not even salvageable.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 19, 2011, 03:45:02 PM
@Brian: Haruhi immediately knows that Kyon brought the bamboo, and that throws her off balance.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 19, 2011, 03:42:34 PM
See, I'm a great fan of subtext and reading into things.  The novels do that a lot, though, and I can understand the opposite school of thought--that for all the subtext we've had, it's about time we had some payoff with text instead.

Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 03:47:01 PM
I will remark here (with my limited understanding) that this, specifically, won't work -- because it's directly addressed in the tanzaku scene, and Haruhi (there) says she's going to keep pursuing it.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 19, 2011, 03:45:02 PM
@Brian: Haruhi immediately knows that Kyon brought the bamboo, and that throws her off balance. When she says "You're right! It means that we are finally receiving recognition!" she's not talking about the brigade. From then on, all they way until they arrive to the shrine Haruhi spends her time trying to find out exactly how much their balance has changed. Kyon knows this, and is actually the one who has the upper hand the whole time! E.g., he very carefully takes a third option when neither of the ones from which Haruhi wants him to choose entices him (the thing about the last piece of cake).

Kyon is the one who's winning the game of "I know you know I know" the whole day, that is, until the climax when both Kyon and Haruhi lose because of an external factor.

QuoteHearing this, Haruhi turned around with a perplexed expression on her face, mouth halfway open but apparently unable to decide what to say. I put on my best deadpan impression. If this was going to reduce into a staring contest then my long and arduous training had not been in vain.

Quote
The whole idea of this story is to follow how the main characters dig through the layers of meaning until they get to the core. That is why I said that if starting with four layers is a failure then I don't have a story to tell, as it hits the bottom on the first try.

Quote from: Brian on November 19, 2011, 04:13:22 PM
if I can help with the technical aspects, and you wouldn't be bothered by that, absolutely I wouldn't mind.

• Events and dialogue as seen through narration
• The true thoughts of each character, events happening outside the narration but having an indirect effect
• The fundamental motivations of the characters and what they know and believe, the basic plot level (backbone of causes and consequences that drives the plot)
• Symbols, symmetries, archetypes, basic theorems of the Haruhi-verse

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 22, 2011, 04:46:55 PM
For reference, the main content of each layer is, from top to bottom:
[...]

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 22, 2011, 04:46:55 PMEdit: Since this (half-)chapter doesn't seem to invoke strong feelings in one direction or the other, I've uploaded it to FF.net. Still, I'd be grateful for any additional feedback, and will propagate the revisions accordingly.

Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2011, 04:14:00 PM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 22, 2011, 04:46:55 PM"However, like any reasonable leader, I wouldn't even dream of demanding more of my subordinates than what I demand of myself."

Saying something like that doesn't help at all! Nobody can keep up with your energy level, and you should know that by now.

But it's a good attitude for a leader to have; meant to mention this on the previous draft as a nice trait for Haruhi to show.

Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2011, 04:14:00 PM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 22, 2011, 04:46:55 PMHaruhi didn't return to the issues she had just mentioned, but kept talking idly about other things. I learned that she was still tutoring that bespectacled boy from her neighborhood and was really proud of his progress. Who knows, maybe she'd really have wanted to have a little brother?

I think the boy's father diasagreed, if he was the driver of the cab in book 11.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 25, 2011, 10:28:07 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2011, 04:14:00 PMI think the boy's father diasagreed, if he was the driver of the cab in book 11.

I had completely forgotten that little scene....

Oh well, I'll just handwave it by suggesting that the boy's father and Haruhi have wildly different ideas on what counts as progress. ^_^

Quote from: sarsaparilla on November 25, 2011, 10:28:07 AMHere's a small bonus, some photos from the main scene (Nishinomiya shrine during Tanabata):

QuoteIndeed, it's quite probable that I wouldn't have believed it even if I had received a written statement from my future self, personally delivered by a certain adorable time traveler, so in the end my ignorance didn't even matter that much. Events proceeded with the inexorable force of a mountain glacier; all things considering, I sincerely believe that I did my best.

QuoteIt was really hard to believe that my sister was as old as Miyoko. Miyoko had always been polite and mindful, behaving like somebody much older than her actual age, and especially during this last year it had become rather evident that her body was also catching up in maturity. My sister, then, was in all respects her polar opposite. Despite their differences the two got along very well, and I could only hope that eventually some of Miyoko's admirable qualities would rub off on my sister as well.

Quote"And even then, if we just do whatever we've always done, then doesn't it mean that we're not truly free, and are held prisoners by our own habits instead? Shouldn't we be willing to face each challenge as if we were seeing everything the very first time, without any prejudices? Isn't that the only way to avoid getting stuck in a rut?"

QuoteI looked at the girl who seemed to be lost in her thoughts and realized that her words had managed to take me by surprise. There wasn't any question about it -- Haruhi was growing up. The difference to the singularly assertive girl from one year ago who didn't even get the whole concept of introspection was so great that anybody could see that; apparently now even Haruhi herself.

QuoteThis just had to be my lucky day, as Haruhi's change of mind meant that I didn't have to do anything! I could see that there was something in the situation that was bothering Haruhi, but it didn't appear to be anything too serious, so I didn't pay much attention to it.

QuoteShe was most likely telling the truth about being hungry. Considering the amount of food she could usually devour in one go it was only to be expected by now if she hadn't eaten anything during the lunch break. Furthermore, to be quite honest I thought that I should probably feel at least marginally indebted for all the tutoring Haruhi had recently provided at school without asking anything particular in return. From that point of view I could just as well give in a bit here and leave any lessons in manners or proper nutritional balance for some later time, but still, there was something in it....

QuoteHaruhi gave me an odd look but seemed to be satisfied with the outcome, and offered one of the cakes to Nagato who was standing silently behind us. She examined the cake as if never having seen one before and took it without saying anything. Haruhi then picked one for herself and headed to Asahina-san who was looking at some posters on the display of a nearby travel agency.

QuoteMy train of thought was interrupted as abruptly as it had started when I noticed that Haruhi had stopped eating her cake and was staring me from under her eyebrows like a particularly unimpressed crocodile that had just raised its head above the water level in the otherwise serene lagoon of my tropical paradise. Can that girl read my mind?

QuoteIt was you who brought the whole issue up!

QuoteBy the sunset I felt exhausted under my burden; my feet were aching like those of an unpracticed wayfarer who had heedlessly made the pledge to walk through the eighty-eight temple pilgrimage of Koubou Daishi. I was hoping that the excursion would be over soon, but our relentless brigade chief had other plans in her mind.

Quote from: Muphrid on November 27, 2011, 04:04:00 PM
When you said you were going to make the subtext a lot more clear, I feared you'd spell things out more than was really needed.  I think you've found a good balance here, clearing up some difficult parts but keeping the main gist intact.

QuoteAll things considering, I should be able to say with sincerity that I did my best.

Quotecaught Shamisen from the bed before it had an opportunity to slip away.

QuoteShami, Shami, a big, droopy cat-pillow!

QuoteDespite their differences the two got along very well, and I could only hope that eventually some of Miyoko's admirable qualities would rub off on my sister as well.

QuoteThere wouldn't be PE today, so it had to be something else.

Quote"You're doing this on purpose and know fully well which day it is today!"

Quote"Nothing awesome ever happens if we don't make it happen. Just keep your eyes on the goal and you'll find reserves that you weren't even aware of before."

QuoteThe difference to the singularly assertive girl from one year ago who didn't even get the whole concept of introspection was so great that anybody could see that; apparently now even Haruhi herself.

QuoteShe had been isolated from all social contacts for so long that she hadn't had any points of reference for comparison; her own opinion had been the absolute truth for her, and she had even been unable to grasp the fact that somebody else didn't see things the same way she did. Now that Haruhi had friends again her worldview was being challenged by all the new experiences.

Quotemaybe she'd really have wanted to have a little brother?

QuoteWe spent the next ten minutes by studying English prepositions

Quoteof pensive reflection that I had noticed.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 29, 2011, 03:45:20 PM
Just something I've noted to myself: You seem to like splitting words like "classroom", "schoolbag" into "class room" and "school bag".

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 29, 2011, 03:45:20 PM
You also use Miyoko's actual name instead of 'Miyokichi'. No problems, just slightly different from what I'd expect from most authors. (I don't remember what the novels' policy on Miyoko vs. Miyokichi actually was.)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 29, 2011, 03:45:20 PM
Okay, that's it for now. Let's see when I can find the time to comment on the rest of the prologue. (Sorry, have had a busy week full to the brim with things which certainly take priority over fanfiction.)

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on November 29, 2011, 03:45:20 PM
General comment on something you say you sort-of-attempted with the prologue (but which, as far as I can tell, isn't actually a priority): in order to work as a standalone atmospheric/character piece, the loose ends (which lead into the main story) would have to have been handled a bit differently. Kyon's constant "but little did I know what Haruhi had in store for us..." keeps reminding us of the fact that this is a prologue to the main story. In addition, the crucial mysteries and foreshadowing (e.g. sudden appearance and disappearance of [Yasumi], constant volcano metaphors) might need sort of 'red herring' (generally speaking: symbolic) resolutions which turn the prologue into a compositionally self-contained unit. The rest of the story could then have been devoted to throwing out these red herrings, fitting in terms of development with Kyon's sentiment that 'the issue was a lot more complicated than I'd thought at the time'.

Quote
I noticed the anticipative expression of our formidable but impulsive brigade chief who seemed to be permanently unable to ask nicely when she wanted something, and got the impression that she had something specific in mind, as if this was some kind of a test.

Quote
She was most likely telling the truth about being hungry. Considering the amount of food she could usually devour in one go it was only to be expected by now since she hadn't eaten anything during the lunch break.

Quote
Now that I thought about it, there hadn't indeed been many penalties lately, but as far as I could see the reason for that couldn't be anything that I had done or failed to do since I hadn't certainly gotten more punctual during the last year.

Quote
Haruhi gave me an odd look but seemed to be satisfied with the outcome, and offered one of the cakes to Nagato, who was standing silently behind us. She examined the cake as if never having seen one before and took it without saying anything. Haruhi then picked one for herself and headed to Asahina-san who was looking at some posters on the display of a nearby travel agency.

Quote
Although Haruhi couldn't bother to mention the fact, it was me who bought those cakes!

Quote
"Is there something interesting in here?"

Quote
Haruhi seemed to give a serious consideration to Asahina-san's unvoiced wish.

Quote
"As I have mentioned before, to the casual observer it might appear to be the case that Suzumiya-san's actions are inadvertent and haphazard, but in reality there is a clear purpose behind everything that she does. I know fully well that you and I are in a constant disagreement over this fact, and therefore I am not even trying to argue my point; that is not even what I am thinking about right now. Instead, in the light of recent events, I am wondering whether the same could be said about you."

Quote
"I couldn't possibly do that. Whatever the contents of that bag are, it is unquestionable that there is something so important in there that Suzumiya-san doesn't trust anybody else than you to carry it for her."

Quote
Nothing out of ordinary happened during the next couple of hours.

Quote
Thus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me, but I was pretty certain that I recognized her.

Quote
The whole situation made me feel a bit silly. Had I gotten so bored with the safe, ordinary life that I had finally found that now I had to deliberately go out of my way to seek trouble?

Quote
I stopped on the bridge to appreciate the unexpected sight and stood there in momentary contemplation when I heard somebody approaching from the direction of the shrines, running. The person soon came in clear view, and I realized that I had subconsciously recognized her just by the sound of her steps. Come to think about it, who else would run around at a place like this?

Quote
Suddenly, I had a bad feeling about the whole situation, and as it turned out to be, I was not mistaken to think that way.

Quote
Haruhi stopped speaking but kept her gaze fixed at the artificial Milky Way beneath us, as if waiting for my reply; her frustration had abated, leaving only wistfulness.

Quote
How did we arrive at this point? I wanted to do something, anything, but my hands were tied by what I knew and she didn't; that disparity created an impassable chasm between us two as surely as if we had been standing at the opposite ends of the sky.

Quote
I followed in her steps back to the main shrine where we found the other brigade members, still enjoying the scenery. If any of them found it peculiar to see us two arriving together they didn't let it show; in my current state of mind I wouldn't probably even have noticed.

Quote
When we walked back to the railway station Haruhi didn't seem to want any company and marched at her own pace well ahead everybody else.

Quote
Haruhi looked at me, visibly surprised. She stood still for a moment, seemingly uncertain about whether to say something or not, until setting her jaw straight and nodding just once. Determination. That was the message I could read in her eyes, and although a determined Haruhi can be a rather intimidating sight, it still made me feel better; not by much, but even a little step in the right direction was better than nothing.

Quote
It looked like Haruhi's wish had been granted even before she had done what she believed to be a necessary step to the effect; on the other hand she had specifically wanted to see the Milky Way, and there wasn't any reason to believe otherwise, but that hadn't still happened.

Quote
After a while, as I stood in the bathroom drying my hair with a towel, a random tidbit that I had recently read somewhere came to my mind. It went along the lines that according to the chaos theory, when a particular butterfly in Fukuoka flaps its wings in a certain way, then two days later it rains on Hokkaido.

Quote
In retrospect, I don't think that I'd have been so calm if I had known that somewhere along the way the proverbial butterfly had just flapped it wings and set in motion a long chain of events that would eventually lead me to a situation where the sudden explosive eruption of a nearby stratovolcano was among the least of my concerns.

Quote
I'd like to underline the fact that the last part was neither a hyperbole nor a figure of speech.

Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on February 19, 2012, 12:58:25 AM

Quote
I'd like to underline the fact that the last part was neither a hyperbole nor a figure of speech.

This is a bit of a weird moment. Compare the following:

"the last part was hyperbole" is fine

"the last part was a hyperbole" would not be fine ('hyperbole' is an uncountable noun, you can throw it all over your speech much like 'salt' or 'sugar' are thrown around in cooking), so

"the last part was neither a hyperbole nor a figure of speech" would also not be fine, but

"the last part was neither hyperbole nor a figure of speech" would also feel slightly awkward (probably why no one suggested doing this?) because an uncountable noun is being juxtaposed with a discrete concept? I dunno, it just feels mildly (but not irrevocably) off, like a native speaker who is just a bit sloppy with their prose.

I'd consider putting an adjective in front of 'hyperbole' to mask the juxtaposition, like so:

"I'd like to underline the fact that the last part was neither {meaningless/irrelevant/unjustified/overblown/ some other suitable adjective } hyperbole nor a figure of speech."

or maybe rewrite the sentence as something along the lines of:

"I'd like to underline the fact that the last part is neither a figure of speech nor some meaningless attempt to impress {the reader} with hyperbole. {It was just the literal truth of the situation.}{something more appropriate??}"

(Insert things you've heard before from me about how good your English is. You're 98% there, so you could conceivably even say "not going to bother with the remaining 2%, this is just my style now" and people would take you seriously. I say this as someone who's done large amounts of proofreading for non-native English authors in technical who were only 75% or even less than 50% there and who would probably consider trading something very expensive for the ability to write as well as you do.

Note that some of said authors are people who live in Canada, exist in an English-speaking community, and publish their work in academical journals as part of their job description.)

Anyhow, there are ideas mentioned in the fic outline which it would be massively interesting to see your take on. So, thank you for the writing so far, and if and when you're ready to share more, I'll certainly be looking forward to it.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMConcerning my writer's block, I've tried to reflect on what exactly is causing it and I think that it's a combination of factors. First of all, there is a lack of emotional content in the next three chapters, but the events are still required for advancing the plot. I endured through the prologue just by setting my eyes on the bridge scene, but the next story arc is lacking such an obvious reward; there is a reward in waiting but it's much more subdued.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMSecond, the style that I'm using for the work is heavily interwoven -- every major plot point has echoes throughout the story. Because there are still large gaps in the outline for arcs three to six I am afraid of committing myself to writing a final version of arc two; it'll be a major problem if I finish one part and only then discover a plot point down the road that affects what should have happened in the finished part.

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMFinally, I'm lacking confidence. For my previous works I have had a strong urge to say something, and that has helped me with overcoming my doubts, but this time I'm repeatedly finding myself just staring at the existing outline and thinking that it's not good enough, that I'm failing to write something interesting. I'd graciously accept any advice that could help me with these issues.

Quote
Concerning my writer's block, I've tried to reflect on what exactly is causing it and I think that it's a combination of factors. First of all, there is a lack of emotional content in the next three chapters, but the events are still required for advancing the plot. I endured through the prologue just by setting my eyes on the bridge scene, but the next story arc is lacking such an obvious reward; there is a reward in waiting but it's much more subdued. Second, the style that I'm using for the work is heavily interwoven -- every major plot point has echoes throughout the story. Because there are still large gaps in the outline for arcs three to six I am afraid of committing myself to writing a final version of arc two; it'll be a major problem if I finish one part and only then discover a plot point down the road that affects what should have happened in the finished part. Finally, I'm lacking confidence. For my previous works I have had a strong urge to say something, and that has helped me with overcoming my doubts, but this time I'm repeatedly finding myself just staring at the existing outline and thinking that it's not good enough, that I'm failing to write something interesting. I'd graciously accept any advice that could help me with these issues.

QuoteActually, when Haruhi was not using her position as the leader of the brigade to push issues in the direction she wanted, she could present an entirely engaging and sociable aspect of herself to others.

QuoteTo be completely fair, credit must be given for not mentioning Sasaki in that context.

QuoteFor a lack of better word to describe it, Haruhi had apparently become absent-minded.

QuoteI had previously seen what Haruhi looked like when she was bored, annoyed or just dispirited, and this spell was none of those. It wasn't even the muted aura of a Haruhi who was secretly hatching a new plan for making the world a more interesting place. No, there was something else, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was, and there wouldn't be any point in asking, anyway.

QuoteFor all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly. Then my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, but since Haruhi isn't really used to receiving praise for the things she does of her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

QuoteI cleared the last stretch to my intended destination and entered class 2-5. After just a few months of the new term the place already felt almost like a second home to me with all its familiar details, especially the one currently sitting on her seat, looking out of the window in apparent contemplation.

Quote"I was afraid that you might say something like that."

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
The resulting notion, that Kyon thinks Haruhi is reverting to a nicer person that she used to be, isn't elaborated on in too much detail, but I take that to mean the person she was before her baseball epiphany.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
What he means by this I can only guess--it's obvious that Sasaki had no interest in destabilizing things?

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
Kyon decides to leave, and I know it was mentioned that Kyon should've been mildly interested in staying around at least to see if Haruhi were outside.  I don't find strong indication of this.  It's not clear if the game has been lopsided for some time, for example.  He justifies leaving as not wanting to watch a game that is almost certainly decided.  If he were looking for Haruhi, I would expect him to scan the area, looking at other spectators.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM

QuoteI had previously seen what Haruhi looked like when she was bored, annoyed or just dispirited, and this spell was none of those. It wasn't even the muted aura of a Haruhi who was secretly hatching a new plan for making the world a more interesting place. No, there was something else, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was, and there wouldn't be any point in asking, anyway.

Why not, one wonders?  It's not unreasonable for Kyon to expect no forthright response from her, but it also means that his concern for her is more distanced.  If he had pressed her and been rebuffed, Haruhi's reaction would be telling in some way.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
Haruhi teaches Kyon random things.  Kyon says it's because she wants to "make the world a more learned place" and doesn't acknowledge the possibility (however obvious to us) that she just wants to help him.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM

QuoteFor all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly. Then my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, but since Haruhi isn't really used to receiving praise for the things she does of her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

While I agree that Haruhi isn't necessarily as an absolute rule going to avoid praise, it does strike me as plausible that she would not want too much attention on what she's doing with Kyon.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
And when he says that he likes the way things are, Haruhi must be thinking, "Rats, because I want to change things with us," but she won't come out and say it.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
I've only made it about halfway through prologue I by this point, but I intend to go over both and try to provide what fresh thoughts I can on the story and help give direction.  If I recall, I suspect the crux of the concerns will stem from prologue II, but nevertheless, it seems wise to be thorough.

QuoteActually, looking at other spectators is exactly what he does before deciding to leave.

QuoteActually, my intention was that this was another misinterpretation made by Kyon, and that Haruhi certainly wouldn't mind tutoring Kyon at his home.

QuoteI never figured out what Haruhi's haphazard drawings had to do with the whole issue, either.

QuoteNow that I thought about it, it had to be rather uncomfortable to wear the maid uniform in this weather, but I couldn't possibly suggest that she switched to something lighter.

Quote"Is that so? Looks like you might not be the only one who gots ideas, then. It pleases me greatly to see that things are going well!"

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Kyon's estimation of what Haruhi would do versus what Haruhi would actually do is the layer I neglected.  Nevertheless, I feel I must echo something Brian (I think) said--that Haruhi has received praise before and handled it, at least to some extent.  It might be best for Kyon to acknowledge the possibility.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
For Kyon to have had success studying under Haruhi's tutelage, I would expect by this point they could communicate effectively, that by the end of ten minutes Kyon could express at least a cursory understanding of Haruhi's peculiar way of looking at it and even say it makes a bizarre sort of sense.  He does say he thinks he has the basic idea down, but without elaborating on it, we can't be sure.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
In the club room, Koizumi was apparently running to meet the brigade, for reasons unclear, yet he expresses confidence that whatever Haruhi is up to is no cause for alarm.  Clearly Koizumi has some inkling of what's up, but that he wishes not to alarm Kyon or the others is curious.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Right, the hanafuda card joke is here.  I think if one is paying close attention (like I am as I do this), one can pick up there's supposed to be a gag here, even not knowing what it is.  While a gag not being picked up isn't a terrible crime, it does cast Koizumi in a different light to know what he meant.  Koizumi knows Haruhi's up to something, and to bring up the subject would be a significant sign, if only to the audience rather than to Kyon, who refuses to acknowledge it.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
At this point, Kyon acknowledges that if he were to (heh, that's imperfect subjunctive) ask that Asahina be relieved of her maid uniform during this time of year, his concern might be misinterpreted (he doesn't say by whom), and Haruhi might suggest a more indecent outfit as a replacement.  This, to me, demands a question be asked--what does Kyon think about Haruhi dressing up Asahina in risque costumes, and if he's really attracted to Haruhi, how is it he can put that aside?  Does he dismiss it as trivial or something he can influence and keep under control?

Kyon relates how he deleted the "Mikuru" folder, and whom does he mention fearing would find it but Haruhi?  He says, in particular, "that wasn't a risk I was willing to take at this point".  So, Kyon, you're at some point with her now, are you?  (I feel a little bit like I should be ten years younger to say that, but there we are.)

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Kyon relates how, without Haruhi, the club is lacking something, that it's boring without Haruhi around.  I actually think this spot might benefit from some slight clarification.  Kyon could easily justify "wanting" to stay infected with the "Suzumiya virus" by pointing to Disappearance and, in doing so, try to ward off any possible romantic overtones.  Then again, perhaps it's telling that he doesn't.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
In hindsight, Kyon is doing an excellent job of making himself oblivious when practically everyone else can see what's up.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
I'll keep chipping away at this unless it feels unwarranted.  I think more stuff happens in part II, so I expect that revisiting it will confront more of the concerns that have been expressed thus far.

Quote"Anyway, get up, Kyon-kun! It's almost breakfast time! It's going to be a really fine day, and mom has promised to take me and Miyoko to the shopping center after school."

Quote"Does it always have to be a penalty? I was just giving you an opportunity to earn some sorely needed points through supporting your brigade leader, so that she isn't too hungry to fulfill her responsibilities. But if you insist, then maybe I can think of something you've neglected."

Quote"You might consider that a carrot but all I can see is a stick. Anyway, it's not my fault that you skipped lunch today."

QuoteI couldn't care to answer anything to such a loaded question, and Koizumi didn't push the issue any further because the girls had stopped in front of some shop and were now within earshot distance of us.

Quote"As you can see, I'll keep it just in case I should suddenly find a need for a half-eaten cake -- and if I won't, it may eventually become a coveted piece of memorabilia bearing the bite marks of the famous leader of the SOS Brigade! What do you know, it looks like a win-win situation for me."

QuoteThe whole situation made me feel a bit silly. Had I gotten so bored with the safe, ordinary life that I had finally found that now I had to deliberately go out of my way to seek trouble?

Quote"I can't even begin to fathom why you would want to do something like that! Besides, we would be thrown out before getting even halfway through the task."

Quote"In the middle school I was totally unsatisfied with my life [...]

QuoteI would've even helped her with the lanterns now, but I knew already that nothing good would come out of that -- it was completely pointless!

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Kyon ruminates on how this is the day things started going awry but that, even if he'd been told what would happen, he probably wouldn't have believed it.  "Awry" is somewhat neutral, so it's hard to tell whether he thinks this was a bad or good thing or merely different.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
There's some discussion here about Kyon's sister and comparing her to Miyoko.  It's not apparent to me if this serves a greater purpose or is merely pacing, but it seems like a natural digression.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Kyon arrives at school, noticing the bag Haruhi's carrying around with her, but he doesn't remark on it, only greeting her instead.  Somehow (and it's not clear to me how), he becomes aware that Haruhi is observing him.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
So there are several things to consider in this interaction:  why does Haruhi look at him so intently, and why does Kyon persist in ignoring it until Haruhi speaks?  For the former, Haruhi says that it's not about the bag but what day it is.  Taking her at face value or not seems to make little difference to the net effect; what's important is that she wants Kyon to remark on something.  Why Kyon ignores her, anticipating that she'll start the conversation instead, is somewhat more mysterious to me.  It's almost like he's testing her, trying to see if he has her pegged correctly.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
On one level, this could be harmless, as it's not like Kyon has sinister intent here.  On another, it could feel manipulative for Kyon to ignore her and prompt her question when he knows very well that she expected something further from him.

And then on another hand (have we run out of those yet?), Haruhi acting like, "You should've noticed this," could be construed as a bit demanding.  That said, she asks him about it rather neutrally, and it's clear from her expression that though she may be anticipating something, she's not angry with him.  So I don't think there's anything wrong there.

Haruhi and Kyon have an exchange while Kyon seems to deliberately ignore what day it is, and Haruhi picks up that he's playing dumb.  Kyon notes that though Haruhi might try to look annoyed, it's clear she has a lot more on her mind.  This interaction gets to the very nature of whether tsundere is attractive or not.  Haruhi chides Kyon for "lack of effort," but since there's no real bite to this remark, Kyon seems to take it well, and I think it makes the interaction more cute than negative.  To me, it's like Haruhi is going through the motions of being annoyed with him, when by this point it's like they're playing a game, on both sides--after all, this doesn't happen if Kyon acknowledges what day it is, so I see it like they're both acting the roles they're used to playing, when really the dynamic has changed.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Haruhi goes on espousing the benefits of leadership and enthusiasm and so forth.  Kyon becomes increasingly worried that what she has planned will be demanding on him.  I think Haruhi must be trying to pump Kyon up for what she has planned and is just...failing, miserably.  To me, this says that she doesn't have a good read on what does motivate him.  Nevertheless, it also seems odd that Kyon would be so quick to dread what Haruhi has in store when just the day before he noted that without Haruhi, thinks are boring.  There doesn't seem to be enough dissonance on his part, in my mind, to have both exist without at least some attempt from him to quiet his own doubts.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Haruhi wonders how one's priorities and what one looks forward to can change with time--in my mind, if realizing something has become less important to you means that you were wrong to consider it so important in the first place or if that just means what you've learned to pay attention to in the present might be objectively more important.  There's a feeling that Haruhi thought there should be an objective pecking order to things, that some things are absolutely more important than others and that it's the person who's wrong in assessing them if they think differently.  Or, there's a more personal question in play:  if Haruhi thinks new things are more important now, does that make her wrong before?

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Kyon thinks to himself that this is "exquisite."  I'd like to think this means he thinks it healthy for Haruhi to examine herself this way, rather than taking pleasure in her doubts.  The former seems much more likely.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Now, I think I remember that some of this scene had a more specific subtext:  that of seeking John Smith versus being happy with Kyon.  I think someone might guess that to be the case, but without it being made more explicit later on (e.g. in later chapters) no one would reasonably know this, I think.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
The next paragraph, about being prisoner to habits and not seeing things without prejudices, I think I remember was Haruhi's veiled way of imploring Kyon to give her a fresh look.  As it is, the paragraph is still fairly abstract.  It does, on closer inspection, seem very different from what came before, but I don't know if I could reasonably guess that this is what Haruhi was trying to say.  Again, if this is made clear later in the story, then I don't think there's an issue.  As it is, Kyon takes this as true proof that Haruhi has grown and changed and goes on to justify that reasoning.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
On this whole passage, there's the greater issue of Haruhi using a veiled philosophical conversation to try to examine her feelings and convince Kyon to enter a relationship with her.  On the one hand, it seems like the sort of thing any hesitant teenager might try to do, refusing to be direct due to anxiety and fear.  On the other hand, knowing that Kyon will be judged for his response on a question that he doesn't even know he's being asked is...awkward.  That he takes the question as seriously as he does and fails to come up with an answer actually seems like the best course all around.  It seems to put Haruhi at ease, and Kyon is no worse for wear for it.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
At the end of school (I notice you gloss over classes rather smoothly), Haruhi and Kyon study English while Kyon worries over how to accompany Haruhi to the classroom.  Kyon doesn't elaborate on why Haruhi going to club first would spoil anything.  It seems he must want to see Haruhi's reaction, or at least to be present when she sees what he's done in some way.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Luckily, Haruhi needs him to carry the sports bag, so they go together, and at club, they discover the object, revealed to be a bamboo plant.  Haruhi goes through all the other brigade members first and doesn't even bother asking Kyon, who has a nonsense remark to offer.  He mentions that his "long and arduous training" wouldn't be in vain if it devolved into a staring contest.  Knowing that there's a lot of "I know you know I know" supposedly going on here, I think I see that this line was meant to indicate that, but it's a bit buried and seems easily missed.

In turn, Haruhi looks Kyon directly in the eyes while saying it must mean they're receiving recognition.  Again, I see the hint, but I can also see how it could be easily missed.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
They go through the wishes.  Haruhi accosts Kyon for his wishes from before.  Implicitly, I don't take any possible negative overtones from that exchange too seriously.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
So we head to the festival, and I think this is the real crux of the matter.  Fairly quickly, Haruhi asks Kyon to buy kaiten-yaki for her.  When Kyon says he doesn't remember having any penalties leveled against him, she says,

Quote"Does it always have to be a penalty? I was just giving you an opportunity to earn some sorely needed points through supporting your brigade leader, so that she isn't too hungry to fulfill her responsibilities. But if you insist, then maybe I can think of something you've neglected."

I think the underlined is the key part, revealing Haruhi's intentions.  The rest of it depends on how one reads Haruhi's feelings, I think.  If one reads her facetiously, as I think I originally did, then it feels like she's playing the role of overbearing brigade leader instead of actually being it.  If one reads her seriously, then I think the rest of the paragraph costs some of the audience's favor for her.  With Kyon as the narrator, no one wants to see him get pushed around by someone he ostensibly is interested in and cares for.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Haruhi mentions that they should go to Hawaii and dress up Asahina, stimulating some thoughts of a particular nature in Kyon.  Haruhi picks up on his grin, but notably, she doesn't accost him for it.  Perhaps Haruhi is encouraged that Kyon can have such thoughts, but regardless of the reason, I think it's positive that she doesn't get on his case about it.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM

Quote"As you can see, I'll keep it just in case I should suddenly find a need for a half-eaten cake -- and if I won't, it may eventually become a coveted piece of memorabilia bearing the bite marks of the famous leader of the SOS Brigade! What do you know, it looks like a win-win situation for me."

To me, it's not surprising that Haruhi calls him stupid after that.  Just what is Kyon trying to accomplish with such a remark?  Is he overcompensating, trying to downplay the significance of the act too much?  It's hard for me to imagine saying that line in a way that's not mocking, even if only in the gentlest way.

Noting that the cake has bite marks, the significance if Kyon had eaten it is clear enough.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Eventually, Kyon is led away by the unknown person.  Knowing this to be Yasumi, we can see that this is Haruhi's intention as well, but it's puzzling for Kyon to say that he has questions for this person.  Knowing she's an aspect of Haruhi's mind, what questions can he really ask her?  That said, I'm sure it would make sense once those questions are revealed.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Does he want an unusual life or doesn't he?  Or can he at least recognize the apparent contradiction and claim that his wants are complicated?

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM

QuoteI would've even helped her with the lanterns now, but I knew already that nothing good would come out of that -- it was completely pointless!

What does he mean by that?  It may be pointless to help her with the lanterns, but what else is he going to do?  She's asking his help, and he's going to say no?  That's actually not a bad response given how overwhelmed he is, and he does say that he thinks something else is going on.  I guess it's just surprising to me that Kyon would be so literal here, even willfully so, when to anyone else, there would be clear meaning in helping her even if the message she intends to send has already been sent.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
Overall, I think the big thing that's missing for me is that Kyon is ostensibly happy about having a life slightly more interesting than typical, but when push comes to shove, he chooses ordinary and status quo every time.  Granted, I don't think that's out of character, but I find it strange that at this time, thinking more positively of Haruhi, he doesn't recognize any conflict there.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
When the time comes, Haruhi is sincere about wanting Kyon's help, but she doesn't say why---really why him and not anyone else---and so she's still protecting herself from disappointment.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
In addition, despite the problems it gives him here, Kyon doesn't reconsider whether to tell Haruhi about John Smith.  It's probably too early to do so, but that means I expect the matter to weigh on his mind.  That's something for the next chapter, I suppose.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM
When I undertook this rereading, I hoped help find some collective understanding---to at once assuage some misgivings that have been expressed about the piece as it is extant and the future of it and also to better understand them and improve myself as a critic and a writer.  As it is, I think I've still failed to bridge the gap I was hoping to traverse.  It may be I'm fundamentally incapable of doing so.

At any rate, I do wish you luck in continuing this story.  Ultimately, I think Haruhi's renewed determination and Kyon's continued thoughts on what it means to keep Haruhi in the dark must form the starting point for the next chapter--if that much is any inspiration to help drive the creative engine.

QuoteActually, Haruhi is not seeing those two things as mutually exclusive. She'd be happy to seek John Smith with Kyon's aid -- as she tries during the shrine scene -- but she's not even considering the option of dropping Kyon in favor of John Smith. This is not one of those fics. ^_^

QuoteKyon's fear was that if Haruhi went on her way before he could stop her, Haruhi would go and steal another bamboo for the meeting, as she had done the previous year, and that would spoil the intended surprise.

QuoteAs was discussed before, this is one of Haruhi's tests where she tries to find out exactly where the balance between her and Kyon is at the moment. Essentially, she's saying: "Wouldn't you buy me a treat if you like me?" Kyon recognizes this, and considers his options for a while before choosing the one that allows him to evade a direct answer.

Kyon: "Sure, I like you...."
Haruhi: "Yay!"
Kyon: "...all. Never mind Koizumi, though."
Haruhi: "Rats!"

I don't want Haruhi to sound too pushy, and if it comes through as such I can certainly rephrase it.

QuoteDuring the lunch Haruhi pinched a prune from Kyon's bento, and here she's wondering whether Kyon's willing to reciprocate. This is Haruhi's last attempt at testing Kyon, and he acts in a way that makes it clear that he sees through Haruhi's intention and refuses to take either option that she's offering. Haruhi realizes that she's been bested when it comes to this particular game, and won't try again.

Is Kyon's answer too condescending? It is meant to have a mild reproach in it, as Kyon is not too happy to be Haruhi's test subject in this particular issue.

QuoteKyon fears that by helping Haruhi with the lanterns he will only get her hopes up and make the inevitable disappointment worse, as he knows that Haruhi can't get the answer she's looking for. He is worried about Haruhi (and him) getting into trouble over the rearrangement -- over nothing as he sees it, since he also knows that the lanterns won't help with the issue. He is also emotionally shaken by the situation.

He is in an impossible situation, and -- as he thinks -- cannot do anything without making the situation worse, so he doesn't do anything.

What he doesn't know is that Haruhi's plan extends past the rearrangement. What she doesn't know is why Kyon is this stubborn when she had expected only a modicum of resistance from him.

QuoteI tried to make a distinction between exciting and laborius, with Kyon liking the former but not the latter; however, when it comes to Haruhi's plans, the two often come hand in hand.

[...]

Do you think that the reasons I gave above are insufficient for Kyon's inactivity? The problem is, had Kyon chosen otherwise there woudn't have been a story to tell.

QuoteYou've done a much more thorough job than I could hope to see, and it has indeed helped me a lot. Several pieces that were hanging or poorly defined have found their place and I have a much better vision on how to proceed with certain aspects of the story. Thank you very much for the effort!

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 25, 2012, 04:36:35 PMBrian mentioned that Kyon's ominously foreboding remarks might have an unfavorable effect, especially since I have a tendency to wander off to darker recesses in some of my works. I'll do a 'tone check' on all such remarks, trying to convey the impression that the obstacles ahead are closer to the 'yare yare' variety than horrendous nightmares.