...yet again, I am taking a crack at this. >_>;
Special thanks to Hal for his help with the first few chapters. This is a rewrite trying to fix various issues, most of them having to do with tenses and formatting. Er, and the entire ending. Pick hollywood or indie (but probably not both; I prefer hollywood myself).
Yeah, that needs some work.
Prologue through chapter three are attached to this post.
Original (extra bummer) Chapter 7+Epilogue (http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101856.msg1025790.html#msg1025790).
Yay! Increased attachment limits!
I missed the previous version, so I'm approaching this with a blank slate.
The only part where I have a minor problem is that Haruhi's swearing strikes me as jarring and crude. It doesn't exactly sound like her, but even more importantly it is in a stark contrast with the general atmosphere of the story.
That said, at this point I can only offer praise for a work that is exceedingly well researched, refined, contemplative, and immensely melancholic (although it depressed me the last point is meant as a compliment, too).
I can't even begin to guess where this story is heading.
Hmm, I wanted Haruhi's rough language to be a bit jarring; Kyon's become very set in his ways and she represents a major disruption to that. On the other hand, I don't want to present Haruhi as being too harsh, either.
If it's too jarring then I can tone it down.
Actually, in retrospect, some of that might be a bit too crude for her ... well. A thirty year old her, anyway. I think I see where I went wrong there.
Alright, ideal; thanks for the feedback, and I hope that the ultimate conclusion is at least a bit uplifting, though the story in general will have it's ups and downs.
I will avoid spoilers since you didn't read the original posting, although I may hint at some later plot elements for C&C purposes. Fair warning!
Chapter the zeroth.
QuoteNear the driveway is a lawn -- which is not really a garden.
Should be a comma here.
Quotewell trained hedges
--> well-trained
Quoteand walk beneath the tori that defines the entrance
There's a giant argument lurking around here about romanization styles (Hepburn vs. Kunrei-shiki). I'm personally a fan of Hepburn as Kunrei-shiki tends to look terse IMO, but either way, I'd recommend 'torii' here. May want to italicize it as a loanword or may not.
QuoteI catch two familiar voices -- Tsuruya, and her son, Kintaro.
Could stand to lose the comma after Tsuruya.
QuoteHis hair is like his mother's, but more subdued in tone, more of a duller gray than her own vibrant green, but he has inherited her grin.
Bit of a run-on here, you have two conjunction splices. Multiple ways to rework; I'd personally suggest:
His hair is more subdued in tone than his mother's, more of a dull gray to her own vibrant green, but he's inherited her grin completely.
Quotebut still set them within the confines of the garden.
'them' is not needed here.
Quotethough, the very outermost ring swirls around the bonsai in a complex braided spiral, weaving the five of them together with whorls that make them look connected, almost a single object, despite the significant area they cover.
Comma overload! Kill the one after 'though', and I'd change the one after 'connected' to an em-dash and lose the one after 'object'.
QuoteThe other two stones I decided to treat differently, combing lines to connect them, and then giving those lines (and the stones at their endpoints, naturally), another, intentionally irregular form.
And more! Can lose the ones after 'them' and 'another'.
QuoteHe's got better things to do than fill his head with all of the poetry he can memorize. Even if that does seem to be his goal, most days.
I'd splice these two sentences together with an em-dash, the second one is a fragment.
QuoteShe paises briefly, then.
paises -> pauses. I'd change 'then' to something else as well - either 'at that' or 'after that'.
QuoteHer eyes aren't looking at me, yet
Comma is unneeded here.
I'll post commentary on chapter 1 a bit later.
After reflecting on it I felt compelled to add one more thought. The reason for why this story touched me so deeply is because it perfectly embodies the aesthetics of wabi-sabi, and that makes even the melancholy a taste to relish.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMI will avoid spoilers since you didn't read the original posting, although I may hint at some later plot elements for C&C purposes. Fair warning!
Always the option of spoiler tags, too. ;)
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMQuoteNear the driveway is a lawn -- which is not really a garden.
Should be a comma here.
Okay, unless I comment otherwise, I will be using all of your grammar suggestions. Especially
~*sniff*~ with regards to my beloved commas. ;.;
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMQuoteand walk beneath the tori that defines the entrance
There's a giant argument lurking around here about romanization styles (Hepburn vs. Kunrei-shiki). I'm personally a fan of Hepburn as Kunrei-shiki tends to look terse IMO, but either way, I'd recommend 'torii' here. May want to italicize it as a loanword or may not.
Argument averted: It's a typo. I'd intended to use 'torii' anyway. ._.
I'm also really bad about even realizing I'm
using loanwords. The last time I thought, 'wait, this might be a bit much,' was when I was writing Chronoguchi's speech in Shuffle -- then I justified it to myself by saying, 'these are tropes, though.' Heh. I ... really need to be better about that.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMQuoteHis hair is like his mother's, but more subdued in tone, more of a duller gray than her own vibrant green, but he has inherited her grin.
Bit of a run-on here, you have two conjunction splices. Multiple ways to rework; I'd personally suggest:
His hair is more subdued in tone than his mother's, more of a dull gray to her own vibrant green, but he's inherited her grin completely.
I'll go with that.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMpaises -> pauses. I'd change 'then' to something else as well - either 'at that' or 'after that'.
Ugh, a spelling error this late in the game. :p
How about:
QuoteShe pauses for a moment, reflecting on the line.
I dropped the ', now' from the next line, too. >_>
Quote from: Halbarad on September 24, 2011, 06:36:14 PMI'll post commentary on chapter 1 a bit later.
I see what you did there.
Okay, thank you very much as always, Hal. :D
I'm afraid I haven't actually changed much of the content in the early chapters; I'm mostly trying to fix the (pretty awful) tense issues I blundered into. :X
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 25, 2011, 06:34:03 AMAfter reflecting on it I felt compelled to add one more thought. The reason for why this story touched me so deeply is because it perfectly embodies the aesthetics of wabi-sabi, and that makes even the melancholy a taste to relish.
That is ... pretty much exactly what I was aiming for there. On your advice, I toned down Haruhi's roughness a bit in chapter one. Tenses in this chapter shift a bit more, so apologies for that.
Also, I realized I should be italicizing titles instead of putting them in quotes. >.>;
Here's chapter two; I should have three done in a day or so. :)
I have also updated the prologue and first chapter with the suggestions I've received so far.
Edit: Updated chapter two ... in the first post. >.>;;
Eheh, timing. I'm late to the party.
QuoteDue to the relatively private nature of the Tsuruya family, they instead employ a single gardener, who works year round.
Perhaps "year-round"?
QuoteThen again, very little of what you know in childhood tends to follow you until adulthood. In my experience, a very small handful of the friends you make in school will be true enough to still be at your side when you are older. It's not that things come up, and friends stop being friends ... but distance develops ... grows between people.
Incredibly minor nitpick. "Until" might suggest that, even if that knowledge did follow you, it would stop at adulthood anyway. Maybe "through" instead?
QuoteA once-dear friend is seen again, and then there's the dull realization that after all that time, they really, aren't friends ... not like they used to be. Acquaintances, but the spark of friendship doesn't quite rekindle; common interests just don't connect.
I think the comma after "really" could be removed.
QuoteThe sand garden is a relatively private area, really, like much of the estate. Acoustically, it doesn't let a lot of sound out, but there are still points where one, a gardener, perhaps, can listen discreetly. I do, and I catch two familiar voices -- Tsuruya, and her son, Kintaro.
Since there are already several commas in the sentence already, I do wonder if there's a better way to set off "a gardener". You already use a dash later in the paragraph, though, which would've been the most obvious choice. Hence, I don't have any specific suggestion.
QuoteAt this time of day, he's just arrived home from school, and is eagerly telling his mother, "...and tomorrow, we're going to start reading up on Basho!"
The comma after "school" probably indicates a pause, but when I read it, I don't really want a pause to be there.
QuoteI nod in answer. "Um ... you're staying here, then?"
"For a few days," she agrees. "Tsuruya-san...." She looks uncomfortable and places one hand on her side, sliding across her stomach as though brushing off some dust before resting it above her hip, looking away at the cloudy sky. "Well, for a few days." Her mouth quirks into a smile as her hand drops to her side, and she teases, "Inviting me to stay with you, then?"
Is "agrees" the right word here? Right now, she's confirming Kyon's guess, although I don't know if I'd use "confirm" in a dialogue tag unless I felt I really had no other choice--you know me, I hate to be redundant with that, but maybe that could work for you.
QuoteShe shakes her head quickly. "Just.... Oh, well ... I thought she liked you, you know?" she asks, though it's not really a question. "Um ... so, you know, Mikuru-chan walks off one day. A few years later, even though I tried, you ran away.... And when I told Nagato, she vanished, too!" She stills herself, forcing that smile that I'm starting to realize is a mask ... more natural than Koizumi's, but still a mask. "Ah ... but ... that was so long ago.... Lunch tomorrow, huh?"
I don't remember if we discussed this before, but even with the passage of time, it seems unnatural for Haruhi to refer to Nagato as...well, "Nagato," at least to me.
Quote"Ah...." I check my mental calendar. Tomorrow night was originally planned to be a 'family' dinner night -- Tsuruya, Kintaro, and 'Auntie' (my sister) over to join Nagato and I. Tsuruya liked the idea of a weekly tradition for Kintaro, and honestly, I didn't much mind. "Nagato, as always," I agree, mustering a smile. Judging by Haruhi's expression, she's keen on finding out the identity of my sister, but I'll ignore that for now; a harmless mystery she can unravel with Tsuruya's assistance while I try and clear my head.
I realize I don't quite know what this refers to: "identity of my sister"?
Quote"Did she say what brought her by, by any chance?" I ask. It's not exactly something we speak of ... but I had been under the impression that Haruhi was upset with Tsuruya. They'd been friends in high school, but Asahina-san's disappearance changed that. Haruhi believed that Tsuruya had to know where Asahina-san went, and just wouldn't tell her--
I'm not sure about this comma after "went".
Quote"Do you think ... she found Mikuru-chan?" she asks very softly.
"Mikuru-chan" instead of "Mikuru"--this is probably fine, again given the passage of time.
QuoteI spend a few minutes trying to catch my breath -- sort this all out in my head. Probably I look like I'm obsessed with finding the world's most perfect daikon radish before I give up on the shopping excuse. I find a bench outside and sit down, just trying to clear my head of thoughts and breathe.
A question, since I'm not really sure--is it redundant to say "daikon radish"? I know saying "daikon" alone may not even get the meaning across, so I guess the natural thing to do is what's written, but I did want to ask.
QuoteI felt sick and miserable, though when she glanced at me, she took it for pre-test jitters. Why was it that Haruhi was so set on the SOS Brigade banding together? Well, trying to hold together.... How could she not recognize that, at the end of the day ... I just didn't have what it took to keep up? There she was, offering to help me out by taking care of my cat when I got into Toudai. Reading between the lines, she probably already paid the pet deposit on her apartment. Just so she could keep me close?
I'd had the expectation for a long while that I wouldn't be able to keep up with Haruhi. I mean, she was super-gifted at everything she does. She has no real comprehension -- even though she herself was my primary tutor -- how much easier it was for her over me. In absolutely everything. There was no field she didn't excel at, above and beyond my ability, if she set herself on doing it. So, what hope did a mere mortal have of really impressing her? Add in the fact that the one area I knew things she didn't ... I could never tell her about. Let's face it, anyone would feel inadequate in my place, given enough time.
Even so, it was the manner of my inadequacy that managed to stagger me.
I'll confess, the signs were there, but I didn't see it coming. Obviously, for it to be bothering her as much as it had ... she didn't either. So, at the end of the day, I just couldn't make the cut. I thought it would be some realization of her power that would be the thing that separated us ... not me running away from the fact that I just wasn't good enough.
And then, no matter how you look at it, even if she tried her hardest.... I'd become a charity case. In the best case scenario, I'd be an endearing loser -- not genuinely able to participate on the level. Letting that sensation fester for a few years....
Don't get the wrong idea. I didn't have anything against Haruhi. At that point, as long as we'd known each other, she really was trying to be a friend to me. We can thank Asahina-san for that, I suppose. It was just that ... I was tired. I couldn't deal with it anymore.
So ... when the train was boarding, I waited until the last moment and slipped back off the car while Haruhi was looking for seats. For a moment, when the doors shut, before it lurched into motion, I was afraid that being herself, she would pull the emergency brake.
But then, you've just listened to me complain about how sorry I was feeling for myself because she's much smarter than I will ever be. She understood well enough. She knew I wasn't lost. She made it to a window, so I saw her for one last moment before the train sped away.
She looked bewildered, angry.... Beneath that, she looked determined.
And so ... I ran.
A hard life lesson: We don't always get what we want.
I couldn't think of any other way to get the point across.
Really ... for myself, as much as her.
I wanted to quote this whole passage because it really drives the story. After two years of trying to get into Tokyo University for no other reason than Haruhi demanded it of him, Kyon's feelings of inadequacy seem entirely justified. There's even a hint of jealousy that Haruhi can get in and succeed so effortlessly, resentment that she has apparent power over him in expecting his admission and driving him to go for it even when he otherwise wouldn't want to.
But there's one key line:
QuoteSo, what hope did a mere mortal have of really impressing her?
This is the tacit admission of what Kyon feels for her, too, isn't it? That he wants to live up to her standard and feels that, inevitably, he can't. Haruhi has an unrealistic expectation of him, and that would extend beyond just him getting into university, wouldn't it? It already extends deep into their relationship.
Overall, reading this now for the second time, I'd forgotten that the nature of Kyon and Haruhi's separation was revealed so early, but it's helped me in terms of looking back at the big picture instead of being mired in the small--already knowing more or less what was to come, I could focus on how all the elements fit together. I think I felt before the first parts of this story were very strong, that the future of Kyon, Nagato, and Tsuruya was detailed and felt real. So far, that hasn't changed.
In reply to chapter 2:
Somehow, while this chapter was still melancholic in its contemplation of what could have been but never was, there were also glimpses of optimism in the honesty with which the characters treated even painful things, suggesting that some degree of healing is possible.
If I wanted to pick one issue here it would have to be the way Koizumi is portrayed. While another extremely dark interpretation of his personality and motives is certainly your prerogative, I believe that Downfall already took that concept to its logical conclusion, and using the same basic premise here detracts from the whole by giving him more focus than is needed for the purpose of this story (or what I imagine it to be as I don't know yet where things are going).
I guess that what I want to say is that I believe that Koizumi would be completely capable of running his relationship with Haruhi into ground just by being himself as described in the books; there isn't any need for invoking megalomaniac plans for world domination to make it happen.
Also, Koizumi's ultimate fate as described here casts a shadow of doubt on Haruhi. In canon Kyon believes that Haruhi would never really wish anybody dead, but after this chapter it is almost impossible to prove that Haruhi didn't have anything to do with it. In this case I would very much like to agree with Kyon (though Downfall certainly grated much more in this respect when Haruhi didn't reverse Koizumi's worse-than-death punishment after she found out that Kyon was in a much better shape than she had thought).
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMEheh, timing. I'm late to the party.
Fashionably so!
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuoteDue to the relatively private nature of the Tsuruya family, they instead employ a single gardener, who works year round.
Perhaps "year-round"?
Okay, unless remarked otherwise, I'll use your grammar suggestions.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuoteThen again, very little of what you know in childhood tends to follow you until adulthood. In my experience, a very small handful of the friends you make in school will be true enough to still be at your side when you are older. It's not that things come up, and friends stop being friends ... but distance develops ... grows between people.
Incredibly minor nitpick. "Until" might suggest that, even if that knowledge did follow you, it would stop at adulthood anyway. Maybe "through" instead?
What about ... 'into'?
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuoteThe sand garden is a relatively private area, really, like much of the estate. Acoustically, it doesn't let a lot of sound out, but there are still points where one, a gardener, perhaps, can listen discreetly. I do, and I catch two familiar voices -- Tsuruya, and her son, Kintaro.
Since there are already several commas in the sentence already, I do wonder if there's a better way to set off "a gardener". You already use a dash later in the paragraph, though, which would've been the most obvious choice. Hence, I don't have any specific suggestion.
Reorder? 'perhaps a gardener' let me omit a comma.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMIs "agrees" the right word here? Right now, she's confirming Kyon's guess, although I don't know if I'd use "confirm" in a dialogue tag unless I felt I really had no other choice--you know me, I hate to be redundant with that, but maybe that could work for you.
I tend to abuse it; 'allows'?
Otherwise I can probably just go with 'says'.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMI don't remember if we discussed this before, but even with the passage of time, it seems unnatural for Haruhi to refer to Nagato as...well, "Nagato," at least to me.
Hmm, no, that's a slip on my part; she should still be 'Yuki', and I think it in later conversation.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuote"Ah...." I check my mental calendar. Tomorrow night was originally planned to be a 'family' dinner night -- Tsuruya, Kintaro, and 'Auntie' (my sister) over to join Nagato and I. Tsuruya liked the idea of a weekly tradition for Kintaro, and honestly, I didn't much mind. "Nagato, as always," I agree, mustering a smile. Judging by Haruhi's expression, she's keen on finding out the identity of my sister, but I'll ignore that for now; a harmless mystery she can unravel with Tsuruya's assistance while I try and clear my head.
I realize I don't quite know what this refers to: "identity of my sister"?
Ah, this is the fact that Kyon's sister is the one that Kintaro calls 'Auntie'.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMI'm not sure about this comma after "went".
I think it can be dropped.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PM"Mikuru-chan" instead of "Mikuru"--this is probably fine, again given the passage of time.
Hmm. I ... didn't realize that was off. Looking back, you're right, but I think I'll leave it as is, yeah. An acceptible slip, it seems. :p
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMA question, since I'm not really sure--is it redundant to say "daikon radish"? I know saying "daikon" alone may not even get the meaning across, so I guess the natural thing to do is what's written, but I did want to ask.
I think I can be a bit more general here; I'm probably overdoing it a bit. It appears that just 'diakon' should be fine, but since I tend to overdo the loanwords etc., I'll let this one go.
"Probably I look like I'm obsessed with finding the world's most perfect vegetables before I give up on the shopping excuse." should do just as well.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMThis is the tacit admission of what Kyon feels for her, too, isn't it? That he wants to live up to her standard and feels that, inevitably, he can't. Haruhi has an unrealistic expectation of him, and that would extend beyond just him getting into university, wouldn't it? It already extends deep into their relationship.
There is also the final line of the chapter, which (I thought) was a bit less subtle, but yes, that's generally how Kyon felt to motivate that course of action....
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMOverall, reading this now for the second time, I'd forgotten that the nature of Kyon and Haruhi's separation was revealed so early, but it's helped me in terms of looking back at the big picture instead of being mired in the small--already knowing more or less what was to come, I could focus on how all the elements fit together. I think I felt before the first parts of this story were very strong, that the future of Kyon, Nagato, and Tsuruya was detailed and felt real. So far, that hasn't changed.
Great; excellent. Hopefully I can deliver a better ending this time around. :D
Agh, forgot to mention thank you very much for the commentary; that was quite helpful.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 25, 2011, 04:29:00 PMSomehow, while this chapter was still melancholic in its contemplation of what could have been but never was, there were also glimpses of optimism in the honesty with which the characters treated even painful things, suggesting that some degree of healing is possible.
Okay, good, that was largely what I was aiming for.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 25, 2011, 04:29:00 PMIf I wanted to pick one issue here it would have to be the way Koizumi is portrayed. While another extremely dark interpretation of his personality and motives is certainly your prerogative, I believe that Downfall already took that concept to its logical conclusion, and using the same basic premise here detracts from the whole by giving him more focus than is needed for the purpose of this story (or what I imagine it to be as I don't know yet where things are going).
I guess that what I want to say is that I believe that Koizumi would be completely capable of running his relationship with Haruhi into ground just by being himself as described in the books; there isn't any need for invoking megalomaniac plans for world domination to make it happen.
Also, Koizumi's ultimate fate as described here casts a shadow of doubt on Haruhi. In canon Kyon believes that Haruhi would never really wish anybody dead, but after this chapter it is almost impossible to prove that Haruhi didn't have anything to do with it. In this case I would very much like to agree with Kyon (though Downfall certainly grated much more in this respect when Haruhi didn't reverse Koizumi's worse-than-death punishment after she found out that Kyon was in a much better shape than she had thought).
Well, the Downfall thing is a separate issue. I didn't have a good way to bring it into the narrative, but Koizumi's burning wouldn't have been eternal; if Haruhi doesn't do it herself, Kuyou would have fixed it. I'm kind of stumped on handling that to fix it ... I had a few ideas, but I've decided to table them and focus on one re-write at a time.
So, I had a whole list of counter-arguments and justifications for using this characterization of Koizumi -- until I looked at it and realized that's what they were.
Okay. You're right; there's no reason to villify Koizumi here, and it doesn't end up adding much to the story. I didn't phrase the 'world domination' thing well at all; that's actually meant to be 'standard corporate buzzword' not 'cryptic message of doom' (and it doesn't help that Kyon, here doesn't follow corporate buzzwords). Easily changed to 'rule the financial world.' This is meant to be Koizumi trying to project interest in something Haruhi finds dull onto her (and leads to what you were suggesting), not more sinister conspiracies.
Secondly, it's a complete failure on my part to disregard the fact that, you're right; Haruhi
wouldn't wish death upon someone like that. And Kyon wouldn't have just accepted it like that as she presented it anyway. I'm honestly rather amazed I don't recall this being pointed out to me before. Maybe I just filtered it out until I managed to work it out in Downfall. >_<
Anyway. For the plot of the story, Koizumi does, unfortunately, need to die there.
But he can be a sympathetic character, and Haruhi doesn't need to be responsible. In fact, that leads into later developments much better than the original story strucuture allowed! Excellent; this represents a good deal of work, but I believe you've identified one of the factors that was working against this story instead of for it, and allows me to much better foreshadow some critical aspects of the ending....
I'm afraid the next chapter will be delayed, because now I know how to fix this one! (And ... subsequent chapters, too.)
Thank you very much for your feedback!
Sympathetic Koizumi--hmm, mayhap what can be done (if you haven't already settled on a specific angle, that is) is to consider the stress Koizumi must've been under. With Kyon having bowed out, the onus falls almost entirely on him to direct Haruhi's energies into what he considers safe and neutral. Trying to keep up with Haruhi is no easy task. I can see something where Koizumi simply stressed himself out to the point of his body breaking down under that weight.
But feel free to disregard that; I'm sure there are several ways to put a tragic spin on him here.
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2011, 02:59:54 AM
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuoteThen again, very little of what you know in childhood tends to follow you until adulthood. In my experience, a very small handful of the friends you make in school will be true enough to still be at your side when you are older. It's not that things come up, and friends stop being friends ... but distance develops ... grows between people.
Incredibly minor nitpick. "Until" might suggest that, even if that knowledge did follow you, it would stop at adulthood anyway. Maybe "through" instead?
What about ... 'into'?
Sounds reasonable.
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2011, 03:01:16 AM
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuoteThe sand garden is a relatively private area, really, like much of the estate. Acoustically, it doesn't let a lot of sound out, but there are still points where one, a gardener, perhaps, can listen discreetly. I do, and I catch two familiar voices -- Tsuruya, and her son, Kintaro.
Since there are already several commas in the sentence already, I do wonder if there's a better way to set off "a gardener". You already use a dash later in the paragraph, though, which would've been the most obvious choice. Hence, I don't have any specific suggestion.
Reorder? 'perhaps a gardener' let me omit a comma.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMIs "agrees" the right word here? Right now, she's confirming Kyon's guess, although I don't know if I'd use "confirm" in a dialogue tag unless I felt I really had no other choice--you know me, I hate to be redundant with that, but maybe that could work for you.
I tend to abuse it; 'allows'?
Otherwise I can probably just go with 'says'.
Either would seem workable.
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2011, 03:01:16 AM
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMQuote"Ah...." I check my mental calendar. Tomorrow night was originally planned to be a 'family' dinner night -- Tsuruya, Kintaro, and 'Auntie' (my sister) over to join Nagato and I. Tsuruya liked the idea of a weekly tradition for Kintaro, and honestly, I didn't much mind. "Nagato, as always," I agree, mustering a smile. Judging by Haruhi's expression, she's keen on finding out the identity of my sister, but I'll ignore that for now; a harmless mystery she can unravel with Tsuruya's assistance while I try and clear my head.
I realize I don't quite know what this refers to: "identity of my sister"?
Ah, this is the fact that Kyon's sister is the one that Kintaro calls 'Auntie'.
Oh, okay, Haruhi thinks 'Auntie' refers to Kyon's wife.
Quote from: Brian on September 26, 2011, 03:01:16 AM
Quote from: Muphrid on September 25, 2011, 01:55:50 PMA question, since I'm not really sure--is it redundant to say "daikon radish"? I know saying "daikon" alone may not even get the meaning across, so I guess the natural thing to do is what's written, but I did want to ask.
I think I can be a bit more general here; I'm probably overdoing it a bit. It appears that just 'diakon' should be fine, but since I tend to overdo the loanwords etc., I'll let this one go.
"Probably I look like I'm obsessed with finding the world's most perfect vegetables before I give up on the shopping excuse." should do just as well.
Eh, I do like the specificity of it. Up to you.
Glad to be of assistance.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 26, 2011, 03:38:44 AM
Sympathetic Koizumi--hmm, mayhap what can be done (if you haven't already settled on a specific angle, that is) is to consider the stress Koizumi must've been under. With Kyon having bowed out, the onus falls almost entirely on him to direct Haruhi's energies into what he considers safe and neutral. Trying to keep up with Haruhi is no easy task. I can see something where Koizumi simply stressed himself out to the point of his body breaking down under that weight.
But feel free to disregard that; I'm sure there are several ways to put a tragic spin on him here.
That's about exactly what I'm aiming for, I just want to avoid implications of suicide or anything like that. This even lets me have Koizumi remain supportive and he/Haruhi part under different circumstances.
Indirectly, this does make Haruhi responsible, unfortunately. Still, that works much better than her wishing it to work out that way, versus things just turning out that way.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 26, 2011, 03:38:44 AMOh, okay, Haruhi thinks 'Auntie' refers to Kyon's wife.
Haruhi seems to have a strange interest in Kyon's romantic partner/lack thereof, yes....
Does this need to be made more obvious, here?
Quote from: Muphrid on September 26, 2011, 03:38:44 AM
Eh, I do like the specificity of it. Up to you.
Well, that's all the convincing I need to make it just 'daikon'. ;)
Quote from: Muphrid on September 26, 2011, 03:38:44 AMGlad to be of assistance.
Thanks again; I've rewritten chapter 2 as per Sarsaparilla's comments, and hope to have that posted this evening. :)
Edit: Revised chapter two in the first post.
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2011, 12:49:59 AMIndirectly, this does make Haruhi responsible, unfortunately.
After the second reading I actually disagree about the responsibility part. Haruhi's powers may be the direct cause of the end result but they do that just by existing, not by making any active effort to the effect. Hence, if anybody, I can only keep Koizumi responsible for his own actions and decisions (because he knew what he was getting into), and their eventual consequences.
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2011, 12:49:59 AMHaruhi seems to have a strange interest in Kyon's romantic partner/lack thereof, yes....
Does this need to be made more obvious, here?
For whatever it's worth, I noticed it on the first reading but it wasn't unnaturally salient, so it might be on the right level already.
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2011, 12:49:59 AMRevised chapter two in the first post.
While a relatively small change, it's still a stark contrast to the previous version. I must admit that the very idea of Haruhi dating Koizumi makes me feel ... uncomfortable, but the sympathy that is spent on Koizumi actually comes around and makes both Kyon and Haruhi more sympathetic in this chapter.
I must admit that by now I'm completely hooked on this story and can hardly wait for the next part.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 27, 2011, 02:19:45 AMAfter the second reading I actually disagree about the responsibility part. Haruhi's powers may be the direct cause of the end result but they do that just by existing, not by making any active effort to the effect. Hence, if anybody, I can only keep Koizumi responsible for his own actions and decisions (because he knew what he was getting into), and their eventual consequences.
Y...es. This seems to be in keeping with my habit of occasionally saying incredibly stupid things. >.>
I didn't like the idea of Haruhi being responsible once you pointed it out as something she wouldn't do, so when I actually sat down to do the rewrite, I did my best to make sure it didn't come across that way. It seems that worked, so I'm glad for that.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 27, 2011, 02:19:45 AMFor whatever it's worth, I noticed it on the first reading but it wasn't unnaturally salient, so it might be on the right level already.
Aces! Something I can leave unrevised. :D
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 27, 2011, 02:19:45 AMI must admit that by now I'm completely hooked on this story and can hardly wait for the next part.
Thanks again for the suggestion -- I'll start work on chapter three ... eh, after I sleep. >_>;;
In the meantime, I hope I can keep the ending from being a letdown to you, then.
Incidentally, did you draw that Sasaki avatar yourself? It's very cute. :)
Quote from: Brian on September 27, 2011, 02:38:11 AMIncidentally, did you draw that Sasaki avatar yourself?
Concerning my old avatar, although I kind of admire the PSG sisters for the fact that they are openly what they are and do what they want, they are also pretty horrible persons through and through, and having one as my avatar could give the wrong impression....
Yes, I decided to draw something more appropriate. When I was small people kept saying that they could immediately tell that a particular drawing was made by me because the drawings 'felt like me', and if one looks past the superficial, physical appearance then this avatar does indeed embody some essential aspect of me so that I can recognize myself from it.
Thanks for noticing!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 27, 2011, 03:24:56 AM
When I was small people kept saying that they could immediately tell that a particular drawing was made by me because the drawings 'felt like me', and if one looks past the superficial, physical appearance then this avatar does indeed embody some essential aspect of me so that I can recognize myself from it.
Well, I have no way of telling if that avatar is 'you', and I had no idea who the PSG sisters were, but that last avatar felt much more like a wall. That said, both the old one and the new one clearly convey the fact that there's going to be a certain melancholy quality about your writing.
And here's a revised chapter three.
Um. I don't know why, but I have a lot less confidence about this chapter than the previous one. Erg.
Edit: Moved file to first post.
On the whole I see this third chapter as a logical continuation of the previous one and can't see any obvious weaknesses. Kyon's and Nagato's relationship is rather unique and portrayed in an admirable, sensitive manner. However, it looks quite clear that the one who has grown the most during the intervening years is Haruhi. I don't know whether it's an intentional, hidden metaphor or not but this Kyon feels somehow like one of those bonsai trees that he's tending.
There is one transition that appears rather abrupt to me, between the section where Kyon and Nagato spend their first night together, and the following one where Kyon tells about his apprenticeship at Kurama-dera. While the latter section kind of ties itself into the previous topic at the very end, I spent most of the section trying to reorient myself with the thrust of the story. A lead-in sentence or two at the beginning of the second section might bridge the apparent gap in the flow of narration.
Kyon's decision at the end appears somewhat sudden. It feels like there's more to it than what he is willing to reveal at this point, but I must assume that there's room for substantiating it further in the following chapters.
Beyond that a couple of minor language issues:
preform -> perform
QuoteAnd I am not so stupid as to realize that any respectable woman would find that quite difficult to accept.
It looks like this sentence is either missing one negation or having one too many if Kyon is trying to say what I think he does. Maybe something like:
And I am not too stupid to realize...
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 28, 2011, 04:52:19 AMOn the whole I see this third chapter as a logical continuation of the previous one and can't see any obvious weaknesses. Kyon's and Nagato's relationship is rather unique and portrayed in an admirable, sensitive manner. However, it looks quite clear that the one who has grown the most during the intervening years is Haruhi. I don't know whether it's an intentional, hidden metaphor or not but this Kyon feels somehow like one of those bonsai trees that he's tending.
There's a more obvious metaphor about the exact same thing at the start of the next chapter. Of course ... that's not the entire story, but I can't explain more without spoiling things. @_@
Hopefully, you won't hate me for chapter five's ending. >_>;
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 28, 2011, 04:52:19 AMThere is one transition that appears rather abrupt to me, between the section where Kyon and Nagato spend their first night together, and the following one where Kyon tells about his apprenticeship at Kurama-dera. While the latter section kind of ties itself into the previous topic at the very end, I spent most of the section trying to reorient myself with the thrust of the story. A lead-in sentence or two at the beginning of the second section might bridge the apparent gap in the flow of narration.
Yes; you correctly spotted what used to be two separate scenes, inexpertly stitched together. I had originally written every scene with dialog in present tense, and all non-dialog flashbacks in past tense.
That ... was a bad idea. -_-
That's also why the structure of those two halves jars; I'll revist that and polish it up a bit, since it's obviously still pretty weak. I think the natural bridge is Kyon's actual troubled thoughts when he wakes up, until he gets sent to the temple; unfortunately things are a bit hectic here suddenly, so I won't have real time to work on that for a few hours....
And in fact will be slowing down in general for a while. >_>;
Edit: Okay, I misunderstood which section you were thinking of there. I see what you were getting at now. I added a few times to address that. :p
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 28, 2011, 04:52:19 AMKyon's decision at the end appears somewhat sudden. It feels like there's more to it than what he is willing to reveal at this point, but I must assume that there's room for substantiating it further in the following chapters.
Hmm. I'm not sure about this one. It is a bit sudden, because it's Kyon's impulse to run away again -- he tries to do something constructive with that urge (after Nagato's advice) and settle for going to visit Koizumi's grave. The critical difference is that he waits until Haruhi's out of town, so he's not just doing it to avoid her (and that's part of why Nagato played the Kintaro card).
So, I don't mind that it feels sudden, but I don't want it to feel unnatural. I'll have to think about that.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 28, 2011, 04:52:19 AMBeyond that a couple of minor language issues:
preform -> perform
QuoteAnd I am not so stupid as to realize that any respectable woman would find that quite difficult to accept.
It looks like this sentence is either missing one negation or having one too many if Kyon is trying to say what I think he does. Maybe something like:
And I am not too stupid to realize...
Oops, a spelling error. >_>;;
And, okay, I will clean up that last sentence. I'll try and clean this chapter up again and repost it tonight; no promises on later (haha) chapters for a few days until things settle down at work. ^_^;;
Edit: That sentence wasn't so bad; the 'realize' should have been 'miss the fact that'. You were correct, and that was the missing negation. :p
As always, thanks for the feedback; your insight is greatly appreciated.
QuoteI'm hard-pressed to remember a time when Haruhi demonstrated reluctance to impose on others, but then, it's not fair to think she hasn't changed. She has calmed down, at least, and stopped cursing at me, which is nice.... The bonsai are fine, anyway -- conditions haven't changed, though two of them need water. Once that's taken care of, I can leave.
I don't recall if that was there before the rewrite, but Kyon remarking on Haruhi's language is a good touch.
Quote"O...oh," Haruhi says, frowning. "Shoot.... I had kind of hoped that meeting would be more cheerful than this. Is it that I am somehow responsible for this unhappiness?"
Something I noticed when I was reading back in this passage (actually intending to pick at the use of "smaller woman" and then "shorter woman" within a few lines of each other) is that here, Haruhi has several opportunities to use contractions but doesn't. It might make the last sentence a touch less fluid than it ought to be, but this is nothing that jumped out at me right away, so keep that in mind.
QuoteIt's the latter, naturally, though she does hold out until she finishes her tea. "Okay," she says with a sigh. "I'll tell you what happened to me after you ditched me, but you have to tell me how you met up with Yuki-chan and Tsu-chan." She grimaces, shaking her head. "Nagato-san, I guess, now."
Since Haruhi refers to her as "Yuki" above, this "Yuki-chan" may feel a bit off. You seem to use the latter more consistently than the former, though.
Quote"A few months after that, we kind of ... sort of just ... fell into going out, I guess. He stuck with his classes, but I couldn't really focus enough for school that year. Maybe if it had just been you ... or just Yuki-chan ... but both of you, ditching me like that...." She sighs and drinks her hot water, making a face at it before washing the taste away with a mouthful of tea.
"Ditching" may be the way it feels to Haruhi, but it strikes me as a self-centered word to use. Perhaps something more neutral? "Ditching me" -> "disappearing" or "taking off"?
On reflection, the subsequent paragraphs may do well enough to give proper context that a change isn't needed.
Quote"W...well, Koizumi's health ... started failing around then. He was subtle about it, but I could tell; it was almost like there was a direct link! I'd get frustrated, not say anything to him, and a day or two later, he'd be worn out and exhausted, but insist on trying to do something fun and exciting with me anyway -- slowly wearing himself down.
On reading "it was almost like there was a direct link," I feel like I've been hit with a 2x4 made wholly of dramatic irony. Not a bad feeling, but oh boy...
Quote"He kept running off anf vanishing more and more every time I got frustrated.... Like when I turned angry, he was running off to someone else! I didn't ... take the thought of that as well as I should have, I'll be honest. I accused him and demanded an explanation, because last member or not, he's always been the one I thought hid the most from me.
It kind of bugs me that Haruhi would figure out the basic causation and frame it that way. Not knowing why Koizumi is running off, I'd think she'd be more likely to draw a link to something more concrete or tangible. You say they don't really fight yet, so it wouldn't be that, but...
To be honest, I'm not really sure what you could connect Koizumi's constant disappearing to that would make sense.
Overall, Koizumi's new story feels better. I do think there are some things that can be melded a bit better. Haruhi remarks how, at the class reunion, she berated herself on not realizing Koizumi was sick, but she already found him to be tired or worn-out before. Granted, she didn't think he was sick at the time, but she did see signs and in some sense, it would make sense in retrospect. Something I find unsatisfying, though, is that Koizumi does indeed just perish off-screen. That may be unavoidable; it's difficult to get a sense of what kind of toll his body was taking just from dealing with Haruhi, especially since she doesn't understand the real reason for it.
Other than that, sometimes Haruhi feels like she's speaking in a way that's a lot more flippant or casual than her actions suggest (for example, when Kyon offers his handkerchief--the dialogue at that point didn't give me a great impression of solemnity or struggling to hold the emotion in; then again, Haruhi's not really about holding things in, is she?).
I hope to get to chapter three tomorrow.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMQuote"O...oh," Haruhi says, frowning. "Shoot.... I had kind of hoped that meeting would be more cheerful than this. Is it that I am somehow responsible for this unhappiness?"
Something I noticed when I was reading back in this passage (actually intending to pick at the use of "smaller woman" and then "shorter woman" within a few lines of each other) is that here, Haruhi has several opportunities to use contractions but doesn't. It might make the last sentence a touch less fluid than it ought to be, but this is nothing that jumped out at me right away, so keep that in mind.
Really. Hmm. I frequently use a lack of contractions in a given character's speech to make them seem more formal, so I guess I subconsciously slipped into that here, trying to make Haruhi seem like she was trying to be extra polite. It didn't translate too well, it seems.
Yeah, I'll make her dialog cleaner and move that to body language. >.>
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMSince Haruhi refers to her as "Yuki" above, this "Yuki-chan" may feel a bit off. You seem to use the latter more consistently than the former, though.
It should be 'Yuki', so I'll update everything to that, except (probably) Haruhi's very first one, which I'm fine with being an affectionate slip on Haruhi's part.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AM"Ditching" may be the way it feels to Haruhi, but it strikes me as a self-centered word to use. Perhaps something more neutral? "Ditching me" -> "disappearing" or "taking off"?
On reflection, the subsequent paragraphs may do well enough to give proper context that a change isn't needed.
I think Haruhi's still entitled to a little bit of lashing out there. Um ... I'm trying to convey that Haruhi's angry and trying not to be -- and Kyon accepts the anger she's not trying to show (but appreciates that she doesn't harbor a grudge).
So, this is kind of the last of her anger before she goes more into melancholy.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMQuote"W...well, Koizumi's health ... started failing around then. He was subtle about it, but I could tell; it was almost like there was a direct link! I'd get frustrated, not say anything to him, and a day or two later, he'd be worn out and exhausted, but insist on trying to do something fun and exciting with me anyway -- slowly wearing himself down.
On reading "it was almost like there was a direct link," I feel like I've been hit with a 2x4 made wholly of dramatic irony. Not a bad feeling, but oh boy...
Quote"He kept running off anf vanishing more and more every time I got frustrated.... Like when I turned angry, he was running off to someone else! I didn't ... take the thought of that as well as I should have, I'll be honest. I accused him and demanded an explanation, because last member or not, he's always been the one I thought hid the most from me.
It kind of bugs me that Haruhi would figure out the basic causation and frame it that way. Not knowing why Koizumi is running off, I'd think she'd be more likely to draw a link to something more concrete or tangible. You say they don't really fight yet, so it wouldn't be that, but...
To be honest, I'm not really sure what you could connect Koizumi's constant disappearing to that would make sense.
Yeah -- I need to make it clearer that Haruhi only knew about Koizumi falling ill in hindsight -- but then, that makes Kyon a bit slow not to pick up on the clues.
With the 'cheating' accusation, I was trying to have Haruhi present something she didn't believe in as an accusation, with the expectation that he would admit to whatever the lesser (actual) thing was. Um....
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMOverall, Koizumi's new story feels better. I do think there are some things that can be melded a bit better. Haruhi remarks how, at the class reunion, she berated herself on not realizing Koizumi was sick, but she already found him to be tired or worn-out before. Granted, she didn't think he was sick at the time, but she did see signs and in some sense, it would make sense in retrospect. Something I find unsatisfying, though, is that Koizumi does indeed just perish off-screen. That may be unavoidable; it's difficult to get a sense of what kind of toll his body was taking just from dealing with Haruhi, especially since she doesn't understand the real reason for it.
I think the best route is probably just to have Haruhi be totally unable to figure it out, and just let the frustration develop over the fact that she there's something he doesn't/won't trust her with. Then the breakup can be as amicable as possible considering that Haruhi feels that there's a divide between them -- and guess that he was 'running off' to visit a doctor and just didn't want her to know (for whatever reason).
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMOther than that, sometimes Haruhi feels like she's speaking in a way that's a lot more flippant or casual than her actions suggest (for example, when Kyon offers his handkerchief--the dialogue at that point didn't give me a great impression of solemnity or struggling to hold the emotion in; then again, Haruhi's not really about holding things in, is she?).
I think I'm okay with her in that part. This is hitting her pretty hard emotionally, so.... I think if she were more honest about her feelings (and older) this is about how it would be?
Mph. It may be off, but I'm willing to let it go for this particular Haruhi.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 29, 2011, 03:59:57 AMI hope to get to chapter three tomorrow.
No rush; it may be a while before I can revise the bit about Koizumi (yet again :p).
Thanks for the feedback! I'll hammer a good story out of this yet. :D
For chapter three:
Quote"Ah ... well, actually, that's an interesting story," I acknowledge. "Wanting to help, Tsuruya-san found a retired bookstore owner who was familiar with the business to show Nagato the ropes. Nanase-san was more than just a retired bookstore owner, though; she was an editor, as well.... So Nagato and Nanase-san became friends, and Nanase-san suggested that Nagato might enjoy editing and publishing more than managing a bookstore.
Perhaps no comma after "editor"?
Quote"I see," Haruhi remarks, giving me a strange look. "I guess that makes sense.... And really, that's even better, because it means things started to get better for you even before I saw Withering Vines.... I have to ask a question of you, Kyon. I've been trying to figure this out but -- you're still.... You and Yuki are really only just friends?"
Yuki(-chan) again.
Quote"Well," Haruhi drawls slowly, "I actually met him a long time ago.... It just so happened that I sat behind him in class -- in high school -- and--"
My sister's shocked squeal of joy would have been heard even without trying. "Haru-nee!" she cries. I can imagine her practically kicking my kotatsu to one side as she tries to tackle Haruhi in a hug. "Oh, it's been so long-- Do you know where Mikuru-nee is?"
Ah, I was really looking forward to revisiting this scene. It's still a lot of fun to read.
QuoteI take a moment to enjoy the cool air, surveying the dimming horizon as the sun descends in the west, behind the skyline. It's gotten colder, though, and I still don't have a coat, so I don't lurk for long, as amusing as it might be to try and eavesdrop on Haruhi. Come to think of it ... Haruhi and my sister had been fairly close at one point. How was it that they didn't stay in touch?
Something I noticed on a second read through this sentence is the proximity of the "don't"s to each other.
QuoteOf course, my parents wouldn't have known where I was, then, and by the time I hesitantly contacted my sister, she was already in her own senior year of high school.... Like me, she never went to college, but I don't know that she ever wanted to. She met someone in high school while she was in middle school, and astoundingly enough, with relatively little drama, they dated until he finished college -- and then they married.
It took me another look to figure this out--i.e. oh, the guy was in high school, and she was still in middle school, right. I don't know how that could be made any clearer than it is, though.
QuoteYuki considers this for a long moment. "I ... did not know."
"Yuki," huh? This is a lapse, but whether it's Kyon's or yours...
Quote"As long as you are there, it is fine," she says, sounding more confident.
Nagato closes up her bookstore as Tsuruya's limousine pulls up in front. Kintaro's mother exits the vehicle with a tired, worn smile, waving at the pair of us. "How is Kin-chan?" she asks.
I always take notice of transitions, but this seems to lack some fluidity, as we go from a private conversation back to the big picture so rapidly.
I was a big fan of the relationship here between Kyon and Nagato, and I still am. It's unique, and while the nature of it still gives Kyon an out to pursue a relationship with Haruhi, it's not heavy-handed the way some writers might be tempted to make it. Especially from Kyon's perspective, he wouldn't go out of his way to justify why his relationship with Nagato isn't a sexual or romantic one. By this point, it is what it is. And it's good it's painted that way.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMPerhaps no comma after "editor"?
Good call; dropped.
Unless I commented, I used all your grammar suggestions.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMYuki(-chan) again.
Yeah -- next sweep I'll have Haruhi consistently refer to her as 'Yuki.' Not sure why I dropped the ball on that one.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMAh, I was really looking forward to revisiting this scene. It's still a lot of fun to read.
Glad you enjoyed it. I liked the interaction between Kyon and his sister. :)
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMSomething I noticed on a second read through this sentence is the proximity of the "don't"s to each other.
Changed the first to 'I'm still not wearing a coat.'
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMIt took me another look to figure this out--i.e. oh, the guy was in high school, and she was still in middle school, right. I don't know how that could be made any clearer than it is, though.
Me, either, without spending more time on it. :x
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AM"Yuki," huh? This is a lapse, but whether it's Kyon's or yours...
Mine. :x
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMQuote"As long as you are there, it is fine," she says, sounding more confident.
Nagato closes up her bookstore as Tsuruya's limousine pulls up in front. Kintaro's mother exits the vehicle with a tired, worn smile, waving at the pair of us. "How is Kin-chan?" she asks.
I always take notice of transitions, but this seems to lack some fluidity, as we go from a private conversation back to the big picture so rapidly.
Hmm, yeah, this one could use some work.
This was also originally two separate scenes, I think.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 30, 2011, 02:32:02 AMI was a big fan of the relationship here between Kyon and Nagato, and I still am. It's unique, and while the nature of it still gives Kyon an out to pursue a relationship with Haruhi, it's not heavy-handed the way some writers might be tempted to make it. Especially from Kyon's perspective, he wouldn't go out of his way to justify why his relationship with Nagato isn't a sexual or romantic one. By this point, it is what it is. And it's good it's painted that way.
That's one of the few parts of the story that I really haven't revised much at all; it just seemed to work.
Now if I can just get the rest of it to work, too.... >.>
I haven't revised chapter 2 to fix the bits with Koizumi yet, but I have fixed Haruhi calling Yuki 'Yuki-chan.'
Chapter 4?
This one is harder to assess because it seems to lay some foundations for the rest of the story, and because I don't know how all the moving pieces will eventually fit together I'll probably have to come back to this chapter when the story is complete. I see that you have propagated some changes from the previous chapters and worked them into this one but I can only know that through reasoning, as the new material blends seamlessly with whatever is left from the previous version. The narration flows naturally throughout the chapter, and diligent background research is apparent, as always.
Overall, I have an impression that the chapter is one sort of a turning point between backward and forward looking parts of the story, and it introduces elements that are darker than in the previous chapters. The atmosphere is changing from melancholy and nostalgia to foreboding.
A couple of typos:
stoodd -> stood
sid -> said
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 30, 2011, 01:52:13 PMThis one is harder to assess because it seems to lay some foundations for the rest of the story, and because I don't know how all the moving pieces will eventually fit together I'll probably have to come back to this chapter when the story is complete. I see that you have propagated some changes from the previous chapters and worked them into this one but I can only know that through reasoning, as the new material blends seamlessly with whatever is left from the previous version. The narration flows naturally throughout the chapter, and diligent background research is apparent, as always.
I actually got the name of the train platform wrong, originally. >_>
I should thank Hal for helping me get that right. :p
I was worried about the tense changes, but it seems they worked for you, so that's a relief. X_x
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 30, 2011, 01:52:13 PMOverall, I have an impression that the chapter is one sort of a turning point between backward and forward looking parts of the story, and it introduces elements that are darker than in the previous chapters. The atmosphere is changing from melancholy and nostalgia to foreboding.
Hmm.
That's not entirely intentional, but putting that flashback there makes it unavoidable, I think. Hmm. You've pointed out something I did with this story I didn't even realize....
Well, that's fine; I'll just need to remain aware of that moving forward. Excellent.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 30, 2011, 01:52:13 PMA couple of typos:
stoodd -> stood
sid -> said
Heh ... a little embarassing that so many blatant typoes got through this late in the game. Those suggest I didn't even remember to spellcheck. Next time I'm up until 1:00 AM, I'll just save it and come back to it the next day. :p
Okay -- thank you very much as always for the feedback. :)
And ... chapter 5. This may be rougher than I like, too, but I seem to be saying that about everything.
So, chapter 5.
There is a bit of a lull in the narrative around the tanuki incident. While it fits in and ties naturally to events around it, at the same time the amount of detail feels somewhat excessive in relation to the overall story arc. Maybe it's just me and my style of using action mainly as an excuse for carrying out the necessary amount of contemplation. Other than that part, the story proceeds from one strength to another. I'm immensely enjoying every conversation between Kyon and Haruhi.
On the actual content:
Some time after reading chapter 4 I suddenly realized "Oh my, Kintaro is Kyon's son!" I don't know whether you intended it to be visible that early but you certainly wrote it in all the way, and at the beginning of chapter 5 I was happy to see that I hadn't been imagining things.
Then, I guessed Haruhi's pregnancy at the point where she talked about her figure with Kyon. Considering what we had been told before, that was perhaps even more obvious than Kintaro's situation. My personal take on this chapter, then ...
We still don't know exactly what are the motives and objectives of IDSE but all the other elements seem to be pretty much open to inspection. For the main characters, it's a sad case of musical chairs. I can't properly express how sorry I felt for Haruhi at the end of the chapter, that after all those years she still has feelings for Kyon and that despite all her powers she now finds herself in a most vulnerable position. And as I have said, I find Haruhi most sympathetic when she's not invincible.
You warned me about the end of this chapter earlier but that was a completely unnecessary measure, I found it the most moving part of the story so far.
Although there is a certain amount of symmetry that can be appreciated in the situation, I'm still secretly hoping to see a time-traveling surprise by the end of the story...
Didn't spot any typos this time!
Some belated feedback for 4:
QuoteAfter what rest I got -- not quite enough -- I tried thinking about things with Haruhi. Really, I'd been doing that a lot, lately, or trying very hard not to. Making myself try and face the problem head-on was a lot like taking a greenhouse sheltered sapling and then planting it on the slope of a mountain. Not being acclimated to the bitter cold and high winds, the plant breaks or dies back heavily, and takes years to recover from the stunting.
Perhaps remove the comma before "lately"?
QuoteWho to blame for that, though?
I think I understand what you wanted to do here, but I kind of want to say "who's" instead.
QuoteThat sounds eminently reasonable, to me. Another of those tiny steps.
This comma might (I emphasize
might) break the flow. If you prefer it, I suggest, say, "at least to me".
QuoteTsuruya's smile vanishes as she looks up at the sky thoughtfully. "I suppose so.... I didn't know him terribly well. For whatever reason, Mikuru-chan didn't speak about him much. Anyway, would you bring him flowers from me, when you go?"
I think you said you were going to stick with "Mikuru-chan" throughout, but in case you didn't, pointing this out.
Quote"I'd like to think I'm wrong, too, but forewarned is forearmed."
Is there a saying to this effect in Japanese? Though really, how can one completely avoid English-language sayings and idioms in a work? It'd be entirely too constraining, I think.
QuoteThe picture is typical Koizumi. Older than when I saw him last, but far younger than me, now. He looks perfect as ever in his nice suit. I guess it's from the time he and Haruhi were working together, but there's no date on it, so I can only wonder.... Some part of his smile looks genuine enough that I think that must be it.
Do you like the comma after "far younger than me"?
QuoteHe had a large frame, and I wouldn't have described him as handsome by any stretch. Even dressed in the traditional outfit, he didn't appear noble to me. Dark eyes, dark hair, and a smile like a politician's. No ... phonier by a huge stretch. If that weren't enough, Tsuruya's father, either through ignorance or pride, bestowed a sword upon his new son-in-law as a wedding gift. It has long been held that receiving a blade as a wedding gift would bring bad luck.
Nodoka: Akane-chan, you don't think it a bad omen that I gave you and Ranma my katana, do you? This Zen person thought it was a wonderful idea...
QuoteShe laboriously lowered herself to sit on the edge of the porch, legs dangling over the walkway. "Hey, Kyon-kun," she said, her voice rough. Her eyes closed and she tilted her face up towards the sky. "How is your writings?"
"How is" -> "How are"?
QuoteJust as I reached the conclusion that I would die there, a familiar voice spoke from somewhere behind my head. I coukld hear it despite the fact that I couldn''t pick out the sounds of Tsuruya's fight with her husband.
There's an extra apostrophe in "couldn't".
Quote"Unpredictable reactions result in more diverse data sets," Ryouko noted.
First-name basis now? Elsewhere too, though a find-and-replace would fix that if it's a mistake. If not, I won't point it out further.
QuoteK-
You deserved better, and I know it's late, but even this late, you're often in my thoughts. I miss you; I miss all of you. I wish you were still with me for this, but since you're not, I hope wherever you ended up....
Be well, wherever you are.
-S.
Interesting that it would be addressed and signed (if I read the implication correctly) with family name initials.
Quote"Troubled?" I ask, wondering what she made of the entire thing. She has been to a funeral with me once before, but neither of us felt much inclined to visit the grave of Tsuruya's husband afterwards.
Ah, so he was officially declared dead? I hadn't remembered that.
The previous sympathetic view of Koizumi fits much better with this contemplative journey to his grave now, and with Haruhi's note at the grave, it reinforces that Haruhi is in looking for support. Hence, I think it's all come together a bit better than I remember.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 02, 2011, 01:22:44 PM
So, chapter 5.
There is a bit of a lull in the narrative around the tanuki incident. While it fits in and ties naturally to events around it, at the same time the amount of detail feels somewhat excessive in relation to the overall story arc. Maybe it's just me and my style of using action mainly as an excuse for carrying out the necessary amount of contemplation. Other than that part, the story proceeds from one strength to another. I'm immensely enjoying every conversation between Kyon and Haruhi.
I don't want to overly defend the style I'm using for this story; it's meant to be much more meandering and contemplative. Some of it is to make certain clues left earlier less obvious (and others more), and some of its just because that kind of felt like the next scene to write when I got there.
So, it's ... slow, and probably from a technical standpoint this story could be trimmed down a lot and vastly simplified. So, this one's much more about the style/delivery than anything else. :x
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 02, 2011, 01:22:44 PMOn the actual content: Some time after reading chapter 4 I suddenly realized "Oh my, Kintaro is Kyon's son!" I don't know whether you intended it to be visible that early but you certainly wrote it in all the way, and at the beginning of chapter 5 I was happy to see that I hadn't been imagining things.
Then, I guessed Haruhi's pregnancy at the point where she talked about her figure with Kyon. Considering what we had been told before, that was perhaps even more obvious than Kintaro's situation. My personal take on this chapter, then ...
We still don't know exactly what are the motives and objectives of IDSE but all the other elements seem to be pretty much open to inspection. For the main characters, it's a sad case of musical chairs. I can't properly express how sorry I felt for Haruhi at the end of the chapter, that after all those years she still has feelings for Kyon and that despite all her powers she now finds herself in a most vulnerable position. And as I have said, I find Haruhi most sympathetic when she's not invincible.
You warned me about the end of this chapter earlier but that was a completely unnecessary measure, I found it the most moving part of the story so far.
Although there is a certain amount of symmetry that can be appreciated in the situation, I'm still secretly hoping to see a time-traveling surprise by the end of the story...
Hmm, for that part:
I'm pretty happy with the pacing on the clues about Kyon being Kintaro's father. Some readers didn't get it even after this, because it wasn't spelled out enough still. >_>;
Some of the particulars about it were really fun to write; I tried to have Kyon be exactingly precise and technically honest in his thoughts about it. But he's always careful to consider the guy as 'Tsuruya's husband' and not 'Kintaro's father.'
As for the clues for Haruhi's pregnancy, I'm pretty happy with how that works out, too, since it allows a lot of the previous bits that seemed meaningless to suddenly take on new significance ... or at least, I can hope!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 02, 2011, 01:22:44 PMDidn't spot any typos this time!
Hooray for that, and again, thanks as always for the commentary!
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMSome belated feedback for 4:
QuoteAfter what rest I got -- not quite enough -- I tried thinking about things with Haruhi. Really, I'd been doing that a lot, lately, or trying very hard not to. Making myself try and face the problem head-on was a lot like taking a greenhouse sheltered sapling and then planting it on the slope of a mountain. Not being acclimated to the bitter cold and high winds, the plant breaks or dies back heavily, and takes years to recover from the stunting.
Perhaps remove the comma before "lately"?
Yes, I think so.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteWho to blame for that, though?
I think I understand what you wanted to do here, but I kind of want to say "who's" instead.
Changed it to 'Who's fault is that, though?'
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteThat sounds eminently reasonable, to me. Another of those tiny steps.
This comma might (I emphasize might) break the flow. If you prefer it, I suggest, say, "at least to me".
I'll go with that latter suggestions.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteTsuruya's smile vanishes as she looks up at the sky thoughtfully. "I suppose so.... I didn't know him terribly well. For whatever reason, Mikuru-chan didn't speak about him much. Anyway, would you bring him flowers from me, when you go?"
I think you said you were going to stick with "Mikuru-chan" throughout, but in case you didn't, pointing this out.
Ah ... nope. That was about Yuki.
There was a comment that Tsuruya should call her 'Mikuru' and 'Mikuru-chan' was a slip, but I decided that I'd let it stay, and Tsuruya's been consistent.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuote"I'd like to think I'm wrong, too, but forewarned is forearmed."
Is there a saying to this effect in Japanese? Though really, how can one completely avoid English-language sayings and idioms in a work? It'd be entirely too constraining, I think.
Man, I started seriously considering that first question. :p
I'll leave it as it is; sometimes I worry the way I write alienates the readership anyway. :x
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteThe picture is typical Koizumi. Older than when I saw him last, but far younger than me, now. He looks perfect as ever in his nice suit. I guess it's from the time he and Haruhi were working together, but there's no date on it, so I can only wonder.... Some part of his smile looks genuine enough that I think that must be it.
Do you like the comma after "far younger than me"?
Not that much, actually.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMNodoka: Akane-chan, you don't think it a bad omen that I gave you and Ranma my katana, do you? This Zen person thought it was a wonderful idea...
Steal from the best!
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteShe laboriously lowered herself to sit on the edge of the porch, legs dangling over the walkway. "Hey, Kyon-kun," she said, her voice rough. Her eyes closed and she tilted her face up towards the sky. "How is your writings?"
"How is" -> "How are"?
It's her verbal tic pluralizing 'writing.' >.>
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuoteJust as I reached the conclusion that I would die there, a familiar voice spoke from somewhere behind my head. I coukld hear it despite the fact that I couldn''t pick out the sounds of Tsuruya's fight with her husband.
There's an extra apostrophe in "couldn't".
Weird. There's a 'k' in could, too. O_o
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuote"Unpredictable reactions result in more diverse data sets," Ryouko noted.
First-name basis now? Elsewhere too, though a find-and-replace would fix that if it's a mistake. If not, I won't point it out further.
Right. Kyon doesn't call anyone but Haruhi by first name. (And Kintaro) :x
Should be Asakura.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMInteresting that it would be addressed and signed (if I read the implication correctly) with family name initials.
Yeah, they never got to the first-name basis.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMQuote"Troubled?" I ask, wondering what she made of the entire thing. She has been to a funeral with me once before, but neither of us felt much inclined to visit the grave of Tsuruya's husband afterwards.
Ah, so he was officially declared dead? I hadn't remembered that.
Yeah, after five years of him being gone (which is Japanese law). It gets mentioned next chapter.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 02, 2011, 02:41:20 PMThe previous sympathetic view of Koizumi fits much better with this contemplative journey to his grave now, and with Haruhi's note at the grave, it reinforces that Haruhi is in looking for support. Hence, I think it's all come together a bit better than I remember.
And I am quite pleased with that!
Okay, thanks for those corrections. I think ... I can get chapter six posted tonight, but seven has actual new scenes (not just revision) so....
...yeah. Thanks again! I greatly appreciate your commentary.
Erg, my thread's all disorganized ... I should link the posts with other chapters from the first one.
Okay. This is the shakiest chapter yet, though the reasons may not be visible to all readers until I post the next one. :/
I'm trying to foreshadow something without being too blatant, and ... erg. Well.
Next chapter's going to be the make-or-break, I expect. So! Here it is, with one more chapter and the epilogue to follow.
Chapter 6:
So, she's not necessarily so mature after all...
Quote"Well, that's certainly a mark to leave on the world, Haruhi,"
I don't even know why, but this remark made me feel bad (I'm certainly biased because I'm watching the scene through Haruhi's eyes). It looks innocent enough on the surface but there's something in it that hits quite hard on the emotional level. Too flippant? Too much ironic echo? I'm not sure whether it's just me reading too much into it, or if it's even intentional. Maybe I'm just reading it with the wrong tone of voice in my mind?
Quote"Believe me, more than anything, I'd want to find him and tell him.... If I could -- I would be telling him about this right now!"
Ha! :P
This, combined with what is being told about the mystery poet (especially that he wasn't even invited to the party) may make the issue too obvious, although I must admit that 'obvious' is one of those concepts that I'm permanently unable to reconcile with what other people claim it to mean in any given case.
Quote"'Me: One of two finalists in a poetry competition at a secret island gathering. You: A party-crasher and the other finalist. Also: I'm pregnant, call me'!"
Again, surprisingly flippant from Kyon at this point. Haruhi is in a terrible position, probably the worst she's ever found herself in, and hurting because of it.
On the whole, a lot depends on how the next chapter rolls out, but based on what I've seen so far...
Haruhi sounds perhaps a bit
too broken. Although it's clear that she doesn't have a leg to stand on (which must be a new and frightening experience for a person who is used to the world bending around her wishes), I would've kind of expected her to try to find at least some cards to play instead of just admitting that she's got an empty hand.
Her rationales, especially concerning the major decisions, are in character but remain somewhat sketchy. I felt that it might be possible to substantiate them a bit more.
Haruhi's suggestion that she'd basically dump the baby on Kyon is probably the most problematic part of the chapter, at least in the way it comes out right now. While the premise fits in and leads to the confrontation with Tsuruya (which works), it feels like there's something missing. Considering how much more reflective and considerate Haruhi is otherwise, just dropping the idea in a straightforward manner makes Haruhi's motives all the way from the beginning of the story more questionable than you may intend. At this point she certainly must be aware of the fact that she can't be on the receiving end only, and I would've expected to see her try (even desperately) to figure out something to give back in compensation. In other words, trying to find something to bargain with instead of simply begging (and the 'covering expenses' part doesn't count).
For all I know she might have done that already without success, but it doesn't show through. She could at least admit that she is aware of the issue, that she doesn't know how to handle it, and that if Kyon has any ideas she would be willing to consider them. She doesn't have to actually
do anything, just show that she's taking the issue into consideration, to avoid the complete humiliation of being reduced to plain begging.
So, this story is being wrapped up? *sigh* It's one of those rare ones where you hope that it would never end ... but I can see the logistic problems in that!
Quote
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AM
So, she's not necessarily so mature after all...
I couldn't let her be perfect ... though, this would probably be a much happier story if I did. >.>
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AM
Quote"Well, that's certainly a mark to leave on the world, Haruhi,"
I don't even know why, but this remark made me feel bad (I'm certainly biased because I'm watching the scene through Haruhi's eyes). It looks innocent enough on the surface but there's something in it that hits quite hard on the emotional level. Too flippant? Too much ironic echo? I'm not sure whether it's just me reading too much into it, or if it's even intentional. Maybe I'm just reading it with the wrong tone of voice in my mind?
Hmm. I can see how this would come across as flippant.
I'll get back to this in a tic.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AM
Quote"Believe me, more than anything, I'd want to find him and tell him.... If I could -- I would be telling him about this right now!"
Ha! :P
This, combined with what is being told about the mystery poet (especially that he wasn't even invited to the party) may make the issue too obvious, although I must admit that 'obvious' is one of those concepts that I'm permanently unable to reconcile with what other people claim it to mean in any given case.
Well, either you are particularly perceptive, or the majority of people who read my story just aren't as able to pick up the clues as you are. :)
I'm actually quite pleased you caught those implications; the inability of the Henry Cobbs of the world to get what I was trying to do with this story depressed me enough that I pulled it down during the first re-write attempt (shamefully, this is the second re-write, but perhaps the third write will be the charm!) That and the fact that even though I have implied what you've picked up, I've (mostly) managed to avoid stating it. >.>'
Others may find it less obvious, but I'm pretty satisfied with where it is; I want people to figure it out, and I don't want to have to spell it out and make it obvious (before the epilogue).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AMQuote"'Me: One of two finalists in a poetry competition at a secret island gathering. You: A party-crasher and the other finalist. Also: I'm pregnant, call me'!"
Again, surprisingly flippant from Kyon at this point. Haruhi is in a terrible position, probably the worst she's ever found herself in, and hurting because of it.
That's not Kyon, that's Haruhi. >.>;;
So, um.... Hmm. There was no speech indicator, but there's a somewhat obscure little grammatical thing involving quotation and paragraphs. It involves the trailing quotation being removed. For example:
Quote"This is normal dialog," Alice remarked.
"And this is going to be a longer reply," Bob returned, "to provide relevant example text. Admittedly, the content of this dialog is irrelevant.
"Even if it is irrelevant, however, it provides a good example of grammatical punctuation, especially with a line separated out for emphasis and impact!"
Alice sighed, opining, "This is a fairly obscure technique."
So, in the above example, even though the third line should seem to be belonging to Alice, the lack of a closing quotation in paragraph two indicates that Bob's speech carries over.
And once again I suspect after I've pointed that out, you actually already knew.
Back to the point: For the first moment when Kyon is flippant, I think to a small degree that would be okay -- he is stunned. But I don't want his reaction to be something that could come across as genuinely hurtful; he's shocked, not indifferent. I'll try and think of what I can do to tone that one down.
For the second moment, since it's Haruhi, trying to add some levity herself, does that work?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AMOn the whole, a lot depends on how the next chapter rolls out, but based on what I've seen so far...
Haruhi sounds perhaps a bit too broken. Although it's clear that she doesn't have a leg to stand on (which must be a new and frightening experience for a person who is used to the world bending around her wishes), I would've kind of expected her to try to find at least some cards to play instead of just admitting that she's got an empty hand.
Her rationales, especially concerning the major decisions, are in character but remain somewhat sketchy. I felt that it might be possible to substantiate them a bit more.
Haruhi's suggestion that she'd basically dump the baby on Kyon is probably the most problematic part of the chapter, at least in the way it comes out right now. While the premise fits in and leads to the confrontation with Tsuruya (which works), it feels like there's something missing. Considering how much more reflective and considerate Haruhi is otherwise, just dropping the idea in a straightforward manner makes Haruhi's motives all the way from the beginning of the story more questionable than you may intend. At this point she certainly must be aware of the fact that she can't be on the receiving end only, and I would've expected to see her try (even desperately) to figure out something to give back in compensation. In other words, trying to find something to bargain with instead of simply begging (and the 'covering expenses' part doesn't count).
For all I know she might have done that already without success, but it doesn't show through. She could at least admit that she is aware of the issue, that she doesn't know how to handle it, and that if Kyon has any ideas she would be willing to consider them. She doesn't have to actually do anything, just show that she's taking the issue into consideration, to avoid the complete humiliation of being reduced to plain begging.
I ... have to admit that humiliation didn't even occur to me from any point between writing this story and now, where you just pointed it out. It doesn't mean it's not there; I unconsciously/subconsciously seem to do things like this constantly. >_<
Hmm. I think in previous drafts, this was somewhat offset by Koizumi's betrayal? No, probably it was still a very weak point even then.
I need to think about this one a bit. I think you make a strong point that Haruhi should at least try to bring something else to the table, but I'm kind of stumped for 'what'. I mean ... as Haruhi (in this story) stands, she really doesn't have much to offer a child (especially in her mind). Hence Kyon's remark about 'if you believe you can't do it...'.
I think she offers good reasons for why she feels she can't handle it, and she explains some of the reason she doesn't think she can be involved.... But as you note, the damage runs deep at this point. While I'd like to be able to give her something more, another part of it is, she only even found Kyon (in the very beginning) because she felt she was running out of options; she actually was going to beg Tsuruya for help, but Kyon appeared to be a much better option.
Hmm. That seems possibly incredibly selfish (as Tsuruya complains). The thing of it is, it's _meant_ to be sympathetic, that Haruhi's trying to arrange for the best for her child because she doesn't believe she can do it herself, so....
There's another reason I want to avoid Haruhi promising to do things after the baby's born, but that's all spoiler territory. I think ... considering how things go....
No, offering to be Kyon's publicist wouldn't really cut it. Or maybe it would? It'd be reiterating the closing note of the chapter (so maybe I could just drop it from there), but Kyon would probably agree to anything that meant Haruhi would stay nearby, as he'd feel that was a chance to get Haruhi to bond with the child.... Alright. I don't think it's a great idea on my part, but I can't think of a better way to address that concern.
Unless you or someone else has a better suggestion. >_>;;
Ech, this also prompts more of a rewrite of the next chapter. >_<
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 05:16:50 AMSo, this story is being wrapped up? *sigh* It's one of those rare ones where you hope that it would never end ... but I can see the logistic problems in that!
I think I read somewhere that the goal of writing is 'always leave them wanting more.'
Hopefully I can keep the ending from being an abysmal failure, like it's been the last two attempts at this. ^_^;;
And so, as always, thank you very much for the feedback. :D
And a reply to that:
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AMThat's not Kyon, that's Haruhi.
Ah, mea culpa, misread that part. Self-deprecation is fine.
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AMThat seems possibly incredibly selfish (as Tsuruya complains). The thing of it is, it's _meant_ to be sympathetic, that Haruhi's trying to arrange for the best for her child because she doesn't believe she can do it herself, so....
I think that it all depends on how Haruhi expresses the idea, or even more, what is her own disposition in relation to it. The potential for both sympathetic and selfish is there, and it may be a fine line to tread to stay in the first domain instead of the second.
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AMThere's another reason I want to avoid Haruhi promising to do things after the baby's born, but that's all spoiler territory. I think ... considering how things go....
This comment, in combination with the remaining length of the story, actually frightens me ... I'm hoping very hard to not see any of the darker possibilities (which I haven't mentioned, see no evil ... right?) that have crossed my mind while reading this story.
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AMNo, offering to be Kyon's publicist wouldn't really cut it.
No, absolutely not. That would be worse than not offering anything, and would potentially suggest that Haruhi thinks that she can just buy herself out of the bind. It can't be anything that tangible.
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AMUnless you or someone else has a better suggestion.
I believe that with proper handling the issue can be contained within this chapter without a need to propagate consequences to the next one, especially because the main consequence is exposed already here. However, in order to be able to give any further opinion, I think that I must know the rest of the story first. Therefore, if you still want my input on the issue I suggest that it could be put on the side until later, and solved separately once the time is ready for that.
I feel honored to be able to help with a story of this magnitude!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 12:56:54 PM
And a reply to that:
And thanks again. ^_^;;
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 12:56:54 PMI think that it all depends on how Haruhi expresses the idea, or even more, what is her own disposition in relation to it. The potential for both sympathetic and selfish is there, and it may be a fine line to tread to stay in the first domain instead of the second.
So, more depressed over her belief that she can't do it, less pleased that she's found someone who can. A sort of bittersweet satisfaction that (she thinks) she's found a resolution, even though she can't be part of it.
Okay. Yeah, that works, though it does stress the fact that Haruhi's got unresolved issues. Actually ... more emphasis there is probably better, unfortunately, considering how well the other bits seemed foreshadowed in comparison.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 12:56:54 PMThis comment, in combination with the remaining length of the story, actually frightens me ... I'm hoping very hard to not see any of the darker possibilities (which I haven't mentioned, see no evil ... right?) that have crossed my mind while reading this story.
I feel bad about this.... Apologies, but I'd rather have you frightened now than angry at me for delivering the ending so badly later. >_<
I'm incredibly nervous about improperly set expectations with this one. >_>;;
I did say the ending was the part of this story's that the most ... ridden with issues. Hopefully, with the commentary you and Muphrid have been providing (and Hal, in IRC) I'll be able to make it work. I feel that the story so far is already vastly improved thanks to your input. ^_^;;
But I also hope it doesn't upset or offend you, and if it does, I know that it's quite flawed and am trying to fix it, so will be very open-minded when it comes to suggestions to fix it. I want to write something that's uplifting, even if it doesn't work out in the expected way ... which could be a big part of the problem. It may be that the ending I wanted just won't work, and I'll need to settle for something more acceptable. :x
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 12:56:54 PMNo, absolutely not. That would be worse than not offering anything, and would potentially suggest that Haruhi thinks that she can just buy herself out of the bind. It can't be anything that tangible.
It's better than her previous offer of money, but not by much, yeah. :(
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 03, 2011, 12:56:54 PMI believe that with proper handling the issue can be contained within this chapter without a need to propagate consequences to the next one, especially because the main consequence is exposed already here. However, in order to be able to give any further opinion, I think that I must know the rest of the story first. Therefore, if you still want my input on the issue I suggest that it could be put on the side until later, and solved separately once the time is ready for that.
I feel honored to be able to help with a story of this magnitude!
Ah, you flatter me. :p
Okay. Rather than trying to be clever and make it perfect right off the bat(something that's not happened with this story anyway so far), I'll move forward with what I have of the final chapter and the epilogue, but I suspect they'll need heavy revision.
Haha, the anxiety of getting this wrong after your praise so far is a remarkably heavy burden, but nothing compared to the confidence instilled thanks to recieving your critical commentary. I'm immensely grateful for your help in improving this story. ^_^;
Regarding chapter 5:
QuoteI think about this for a minute. "I'm not about to leap into anything without thinking about what I'm doing very carefully, at this age," I warn the pair of them. Nagato immediately begins to break into her amused 'triumphant' expression, and Tsuruya catches it too, her grin widening.
It seems to me like the contemplation here is pronounced in real time but short on the page, making it feel like he doesn't really think about it at all. Then again, that may be the intended impression.
Quote"Okay!" Tsuruya says cheerfully. "Then enough of this gloomy sulking! I like a bright, happy, home, and cheerful friends!"
Kill the comma after "happy"?
QuoteAnd to be honest, I had much bigger concerns around then.... "I would guess ... around the time Kin-chan was born I realized that it might have been an issue, but the way my life was going...." I shrug again. "Well ... then I somewhat became stuck. I have Nagato, who is like a sister to me, and Kin-chan, who is like family, too-- And I'm not on good terms with my own family. That's not a good basis to approach a woman, is it?"
Quoting this not so much by itself but because everything around it seems the same: there are a lot of ellipses running around. Almost always in places where their use is justified, but even so, there's a good number of them.
Quote"I really do wish I had more I could tell you," I apologize, rubbing at my temples. "Ah, when you finish your tea, we should head out to meet Kintaro."
Something that might sit in the back of Kyon's mind--while it's a necessary lie, and not even for the same reasons as back in school, he's deceiving Haruhi again. It was deception that partially motivated fleeing from her. He had reasons to fear what would happen if he failed that he couldn't share or use to dissuade her. While I don't think Kyon would do differently now, I do think he could recognize what's happening and feel some discomfort in doing so.
I fear I may have rushed this a little bit, trying to get caught up so I can give more timely feedback when the big revision of the ending comes. I do think that, while this is probably nothing that should be seriously restructured, a good bit of this chapter seems to be spent in contemplation as Kyon goes about his duties. This is by no means uninteresting--the level of detail is really quite staggering--but it seems to connect only distantly to the big picture. The tanuki are dealt with. We see Kyon caring for Tsuruya's husband's portrait. That's...about all that strikes me without looking back and picking it apart. The greater significance of these acts--if, say, they're helping Kyon return to normalcy or recenter himself after Haruhi's reentrance into his life has given him so much to ponder--seems to have lost me, I'm afraid. I have the nagging feeling that I know that meaning is there but that I'd need to read a good bit closer to make sure I see it, if that makes sense.
...or, I see sarsaparilla said more or less the same thing. At any rate, I hope this is of aid and to get to chapter six and fully up to speed as soon as possible.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 03, 2011, 05:06:53 PM
Regarding chapter 5:
QuoteI think about this for a minute. "I'm not about to leap into anything without thinking about what I'm doing very carefully, at this age," I warn the pair of them. Nagato immediately begins to break into her amused 'triumphant' expression, and Tsuruya catches it too, her grin widening.
It seems to me like the contemplation here is pronounced in real time but short on the page, making it feel like he doesn't really think about it at all. Then again, that may be the intended impression.
Hmm. Not ... entirely.
Okay, I'll rework that -- he doesn't really need to think about it much at that point considering how much he's _been_ thinking about it. <_<;
Quote from: Muphrid on October 03, 2011, 05:06:53 PMKill the comma after "happy"?
Will do!
Quote from: Muphrid on October 03, 2011, 05:06:53 PM
Quoting this not so much by itself but because everything around it seems the same: there are a lot of ellipses running around. Almost always in places where their use is justified, but even so, there's a good number of them.
My abuse of ellipses is particularly famous, yes. :x
I'll try and clear out at least half of those.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 03, 2011, 05:06:53 PMQuote"I really do wish I had more I could tell you," I apologize, rubbing at my temples. "Ah, when you finish your tea, we should head out to meet Kintaro."
Something that might sit in the back of Kyon's mind--while it's a necessary lie, and not even for the same reasons as back in school, he's deceiving Haruhi again. It was deception that partially motivated fleeing from her. He had reasons to fear what would happen if he failed that he couldn't share or use to dissuade her. While I don't think Kyon would do differently now, I do think he could recognize what's happening and feel some discomfort in doing so.
This is touched on a bit later, but it could use more attention here, so alright.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 03, 2011, 05:06:53 PMI fear I may have rushed this a little bit, trying to get caught up so I can give more timely feedback when the big revision of the ending comes. I do think that, while this is probably nothing that should be seriously restructured, a good bit of this chapter seems to be spent in contemplation as Kyon goes about his duties. This is by no means uninteresting--the level of detail is really quite staggering--but it seems to connect only distantly to the big picture. The tanuki are dealt with. We see Kyon caring for Tsuruya's husband's portrait. That's...about all that strikes me without looking back and picking it apart. The greater significance of these acts--if, say, they're helping Kyon return to normalcy or recenter himself after Haruhi's reentrance into his life has given him so much to ponder--seems to have lost me, I'm afraid. I have the nagging feeling that I know that meaning is there but that I'd need to read a good bit closer to make sure I see it, if that makes sense.
...or, I see sarsaparilla said more or less the same thing. At any rate, I hope this is of aid and to get to chapter six and fully up to speed as soon as possible.
The main significance is the number of tanuki, and the behavior of the 'father' and 'mother' among them....
Mph. One of those bits that's ... too dull, I guess. I'm not really sure what to do about this, but I actually like most of that scene anyway. It serves as something for the epilogue to call back to, and is significant for *spoiler*, but generally, isn't really critical.
I'll probably let it go just because I like it, here, and try to emphasise the 'return to normalcy' aspect, and that Kyon is adjusting. Hopefully I can make that plausible. :X
Anyway. Don't rush yourself; it's looking a lot like I'm going to end up rewriting much of chapter 6/7 the epilogue as it stands from what I end up posting anyway.
Okay, thanks for the feedback. I'll try and get some revising done tonight, but I seem to be building quite the backlog. ^_^;;
Regarding, for instance, the tanuki: tor the purposes of return to normalcy, it does work. Now that you mention it, I do faintly remember that that was referenced later on, and hey, I'm a big fan of that--seemingly innocuous passages that acquire greater significance in hindsight. In that sense of things, I wouldn't alter the substance, maybe only the presentation. Kyon's not one to talk much of his feelings, but if, say, he related how these tasks are helping him digest and process or, oppositely, if they're helping him get away for a bit, I think that would put the passage as a whole into clearer focus.
Okay. I've done that.
And otherwise slightly touched up chapters 5-8. Here's chapter seven and the epilogue; this is the extended chapter 7, which ... felt like it solved a lot of the issues I'd been running into, actually. I feel strangely confident about this revision, and am surprised at how minor (so far) it's ended up being.
That probably means it's exceptionally terrible, but I'll be hopeful anyway.
I'm still prepared for massive revisions, should they be needed. <_<
I still want to do a line-by-line, but let me give some general comments regarding the ending:
Truth be told, the ending to this story is still a bit baffling to me. There's a good bit of it I feel I get on an intellectual level--the talk of second chances, of karma built up between lives. Asakura being the one to go to Kyon in his last moments surprised me; I didn't remember that particular detail. Even so, I have to say that this ending doesn't sit wholly well with me. I think too much sits in the level of subtext for it to give a real sense of conclusion and closure. Kyon and Haruhi are given a second chance at living their lives together (...goodness, if I even remember that correctly from before, or am parsing it correctly now). Kyon doesn't even really have a choice in the matter (yikes!), nor are we given immediate reason to think he'd want to, fridge considerations notwithstanding.
What I see is a great possibility, mind you. I see that, over the course of Megumi growing up, Kyon would recognize and affirm what he saw in her eyes as a baby--that this child is what, Haruhi reincarnated? He would glimpse some of the things that made Haruhi so unique and feel that those memories are nostalgic and bittersweet. And as his body fails him, he's given a compassionate offer by Asakura--the chance to live his life over with Haruhi because it will make him happy, because he makes Nagato happy. That's something Kyon would consider very carefully, probably rejecting it at first, and maybe we don't even see his decision until Megumi takes over the narrative, meeting the new Kyon in the sand garden.
All that above...is probably not what you should do. This is only my way of giving substance to a feeling that is otherwise very hard to pin down. Make no mistake--I enjoyed this story very much back in February and I've enjoyed it again now. Given understanding, I can appreciate the ending and what it set out to do (criticism that would ignore that would be questions about how Haruhi could die, what about her powers--actually Kyon's remark about having no deceptions anymore, in reference to Megumi's father, does a great deal to signify his change in attitude). All that stuff is somewhat beyond point--I don't think that's stuff you could change without having a very different message and approach. I do think that the ending as written makes it very tough to ferret out the "answer" of what happened in a satisfactory way.
Maybe the short way to put it is best. Whatever emotional fulfillment Kyon and Haruhi might receive from this second chance is just lost because neither of them remember, nor do either of them have the ability to make it a deliberate choice or savor the possibility.
Maybe that's not it, either.
As I said, I hope to do line-by-line on 6-end over the next few days. I don't know if this is the sort of thing that would spur on a major revision or not, though; hence, I thought it best to give what I could now and let the chips fall where they may.
Hum.
That bit about choice (between Yuki and Mikuru) was poorly planned on my part.
I'll probably strike it out and figure out something better for that part. For the rest, I thought about this for a bit and had an idea that ... might address that. And it might not. Anyway:
I was thinking that the Mikuru scene could be revised so that Kyon asked a question or two that he thought he should before Mikuru asks her own question. That'd be a good place for him to explore his regret on keeping secrets again -- contrasting the fact that he can be completely honest with Mikuru (who just messed with him without asking or explaining anything), just like he can't with Haruhi (who has been much more open and straightforward).
The only other thing that it occured to me to add would be possibly Kyon resolving to tell Haruhi everything after the baby's born, but that seems too bitter. >_<
Ultimately, it may not be possible to present the whole 'do over a second time around without any of the baggage' concept the way I tried.
Maybe the better ending is
Haruhi ignoring the bonsai analogy and sticking around anyway.
Well, in fairness, it may be best to see what sarsa has to say about the ending, since he picked up on several hints in the story that I don't think I quite followed on the first read through.
Alrighty, then. It seems that this is in a holding pattern for a bit. Back to K:BDH!
About the last part (and indirectly about the entire story), then. I don't dare to call it criticism at this stage, I'm just trying to express my point of view.
First, I must declare my personal bias. I don't believe nor disbelieve in reincarnation, for me it's something completely irrelevant in the same way as the knowledge that the atoms that constitute my current body have belonged to other people, other beings and non-beings in the past. None of those past entities are me, this unique combination of traits and memories, and when I cease to exist everything I ever was will be permanently gone and nobody will remember nor care. This is what I sincerely believe (I'm not an atheist, nihilist or any of those things, just an apathetic not-worthy-ist).
Furthermore, out of the characters in the story I most strongly identify with Haruhi, and that also colors my interpretation.
So, when Kyon cuts the bonsai, the symbolic message I get is "Haruhi, you are the most damaged branch that must be cut out and thrown away so that you don't hinder the growth of other branches". The omnipotent entity that I see more as an abomination and a curse than a blessing and which is directly responsible for making such a mess out of Haruhi's life then complies and kills her. Regardless of what Megumi is,
Haruhi is dead, her experiences are gone and she perishes in deceit, without gaining any insight on what brought her down, without receiving any closure, not even learning who the father of her child is ... especially this last point, the mere thought
still makes me cry every time....
I can see the point of the story, and that the above is not the intended interpretation, but it still utterly trashes me on the emotional level.
That said, I must admit that I am completely baffled. Until the penultimate chapter (excluding the Epilogue) I
thought that I had a rough understanding on what is going on, but the last chapter made me drop that pretense. I should probably start by enumerating things that I think I got:
- Kintaro is Kyon's and Tsuruya's son, and a reincarnation of Koizumi.
- Megumi is Kyon's and Haruhi's daughter and a reincarnation of Haruhi.
- Kinnosuke is a reincarnation of Kyon brought from another time by Asahina (big).
- Megumi and Kinnosuke will eventually become a couple.
Depending on how exactly one defines reincarnation here, I'm afraid that the situation may turn into squick for me, with wife husbandry being among the least worrisome options.
The list of things I
don't understand is much longer (this is not meant as a rant, I'm genuinely puzzled to the extent that I'm not even sure what are the relevant questions). First some minor questions:
- Was the Organization disbanded after Koizumi's death, did Haruhi wish it away, or did it just become irrelevant?
- What is the agenda of Asahina / the future faction in all of this? Specifically, why did Asahina (small) leave so suddenly back then? Why doesn't she, or her older self, provide any explanations, and seem to actively force Kyon's hand on some issues? What is the point of bringing up the resentful poem?
- What is the ultimate agenda of IDSE? Did they indeed cause this whole scenario through delivering a particular piece of information to Koizumi, and if so, why? Will they keep meddling with humans, as they are still present long after Haruhi is gone?
And then some pretty major ones:
- Did Haruhi's powers transfer over to Megumi, or do they otherwise keep interfering with events beyond Haruhi's death? Did the powers foresee the eventual meeting of Megumi and Kinnosuke, or indeed, made it happen? If so, isn't the root cause that doomed Kyon's and Haruhi's relationship still present? If not, isn't Haruhi's 'second chance' a leap of faith into darkness without even a hope to ever see whether something good eventually comes out of it?
- Why does Kyon keep up the masquerade all the way to the end, effectively forcing the eventual outcome? What would happen if he broke it? Apparently, Kyon doesn't even tell Megumi the truth about herself and her mother, thus propagating the deceit right into the next generation. Doesn't this undermine the decision that seals Haruhi's fate if it's Kyon who cannot tell the truth, especially since the old factions are still around and they know about things?
- Who are the girl and boy that Kyon bumps into on his way home? Megumi and Kinnosuke brought back in time by Asahina, Haruhi, or Megumi herself? And if so, why? None of the options that I can think of explains their behavior during the encounter.
- From which time was Kinnosuke pulled from? Who are his parents? Did they consent to their son being taken away? Did Kinnosuke consent to being permanently abducted and mind-wiped (apparently not, Asahina only refers to the promise he made to Kyon)? Did anybody ask Megumi's opinion on the whole thing before arranging it? (The idea of other people deciding such things on one's behalf squicks me badly. I would personally be pushed past the snapping point if I was forcibly introduced to somebody else with the intention of getting into any kind of relationship.)
- How did Asahina find Kyon's reincarnation, that wouldn't seem to be within the capabilities of the future faction? Doesn't the whole premise violate the first tenet of time travel as given in the books, the one that mandates that Asahina must return to her own time because she doesn't belong to Kyon's time frame?
Thus, at the moment I don't genuinely know what to make out of the story, as some of the most fundamental rationales and connections stay out of my reach.
Thanks for your feedback, Sarsaparilla, I'm just sorry that I've already decided not to keep the current ending for this story. :(
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AMSo, when Kyon cuts the bonsai, the symbolic message I get is "Haruhi, you are the most damaged branch that must be cut out and thrown away so that you don't hinder the growth of other branches". The omnipotent entity that I see more as an abomination and a curse than a blessing and which is directly responsible for making such a mess out of Haruhi's life then complies and kills her. Regardless of what Megumi is, Haruhi is dead, her experiences are gone and she perishes in deceit, without gaining any insight on what brought her down, without receiving any closure, not even learning who the father of her child is ... especially this last point, the mere thought still makes me cry every time....
I can see the point of the story, and that the above is not the intended interpretation, but it still utterly trashes me on the emotional level.
I was trying to show that Haruhi had not ever gotten over the past as much as Kyon wanted -- the one who chose to cut the extra branch/believed Haruhi was flawed was her.
That the main reason Kyon himself doesn't see it coming.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AMThat said, I must admit that I am completely baffled. Until the penultimate chapter (excluding the Epilogue) I thought that I had a rough understanding on what is going on, but the last chapter made me drop that pretense. I should probably start by enumerating things that I think I got:
- Kintaro is Kyon's and Tsuruya's son, and a reincarnation of Koizumi.
- Megumi is Kyon's and Haruhi's daughter and a reincarnation of Haruhi.
- Kinnosuke is a reincarnation of Kyon brought from another time by Asahina (big).
- Megumi and Kinnosuke will eventually become a couple.
Depending on how exactly one defines reincarnation here, I'm afraid that the situation may turn into squick for me, with wife husbandry being among the least worrisome options.
Yeah ... that's largely correct. It's unfortunately clear that this doesn't work for anyone else.
That's okay. I've gotten over the ending.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AMThe list of things I don't understand is much longer (this is not meant as a rant, I'm genuinely puzzled to the extent that I'm not even sure what are the relevant questions). First some minor questions:
- Was the Organization disbanded after Koizumi's death, did Haruhi wish it away, or did it just become irrelevant?
- What is the agenda of Asahina / the future faction in all of this? Specifically, why did Asahina (small) leave so suddenly back then? Why doesn't she, or her older self, provide any explanations, and seem to actively force Kyon's hand on some issues? What is the point of bringing up the resentful poem?
- What is the ultimate agenda of IDSE? Did they indeed cause this whole scenario through delivering a particular piece of information to Koizumi, and if so, why? Will they keep meddling with humans, as they are still present long after Haruhi is gone?
I don't know if the Organization is still around. Early drafts had Kyon talking to the girl who inhereted Koizumi's powers, but those scenes didn't work, so I moved them elsewhere (the current chapter seven/epilogue will be joining those other, poorly considered scenes).
Weh. So many questions. Um.... Mikuru wanted to talk to Kyon to find out why she thought he was mad at her and wrote that poem; her superiors just want to ensure that a pre-determined event takes place. Mikuru left so suddenly because she had to leave and that felt as plausible as any other way it could be resolved, to me (yes, her superiors may not have thought things through, but then again, maybe they just didn't care about the details because history said things worked out after that). Mikuru doesn't explain much because she's distracted ... this is still Mikuru. I wasn't sure what the poem meant, at first -- now I realize it represents Kyon's resentment that he can be completely honest with Mikuru, when he has to keep lying to Haruhi (I'm ... thinking I _may_ still be able to use this in the rewrite).
The IDSE specifically wants to keep Haruhi from settling down enough that she's too satisfied to try and change/do anything. Originally, Koizumi lied to Kyon because among my many other failings, I was bashing on Koizumi. Kimidori was already a villain, and it made a good chance to turn more sympathy to Koizumi instead of resentment, while also pointing out that Kyon's not that abysmal. And most likely the IDSE will keep trying to mess with them, except for the fact that Ryouko is actually looking out for Kyon (because he makes Yuki happy).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AMAnd then some pretty major ones:
- Did Haruhi's powers transfer over to Megumi, or do they otherwise keep interfering with events beyond Haruhi's death? Did the powers foresee the eventual meeting of Megumi and Kinnosuke, or indeed, made it happen? If so, isn't the root cause that doomed Kyon's and Haruhi's relationship still present? If not, isn't Haruhi's 'second chance' a leap of faith into darkness without even a hope to ever see whether something good eventually comes out of it?
Yes, Megumi inherets Haruhi's powers; the epilogue has a bit where Kyon offhandedly remarks to his daughter that he'll become super famous after his next book is published, and she believes him, much to his chagrin was a hint in that direction. Haruhi was trusting in her friends, so Kinnosuke meeting with Megumi was due to Mikuru's [strike]help[/strike] interference, as one of the millions of steps paths on a path of good intentions that led this story to a depressing ruin. I wouldn't like to think it was doomed. Yes ... okay....
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AM- Why does Kyon keep up the masquerade all the way to the end, effectively forcing the eventual outcome? What would happen if he broke it? Apparently, Kyon doesn't even tell Megumi the truth about herself and her mother, thus propagating the deceit right into the next generation. Doesn't this undermine the decision that seals Haruhi's fate if it's Kyon who cannot tell the truth, especially since the old factions are still around and they know about things?
Because the (unpallatable, unacceptable) theme of the story is that things don't always work out the way we want, and it's not really the fault of anyone there. I see ... there's a lot that I cannot portray except as extremely malicious, it seems. I failed to consider those viewpoints, and so, this work will never be uplifting to anyone who can consider those factors.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AM- Who are the girl and boy that Kyon bumps into on his way home? Megumi and Kinnosuke brought back in time by Asahina, Haruhi, or Megumi herself? And if so, why? None of the options that I can think of explains their behavior during the encounter.
They are Michikyu Kanae (a slider) and Kyon himself (from an alternate reality -- the universe depicted in Kyon: Big Damn Hero). K:BDH!Kyon was apalled to see what had happened to his life (since that story's all about nakama and trusting in your friends completely), and the main significance of that scene applies to another story.
We can ignore it here, except as a cameo that distracted Ryouko (she was what K:BDH!Kyon/Kanae were running from) long enough for Mikuru to get through and take Kyon to the island. Even if it is a pre-determined event, Ryouko's trying to look out for Yuki/Kyon. In her own, creepy, yandere way.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AM- From which time was Kinnosuke pulled from? Who are his parents? Did they consent to their son being taken away? Did Kinnosuke consent to being permanently abducted and mind-wiped (apparently not, Asahina only refers to the promise he made to Kyon)? Did anybody ask Megumi's opinion on the whole thing before arranging it? (The idea of other people deciding such things on one's behalf squicks me badly. I would personally be pushed past the snapping point if I was forcibly introduced to somebody else with the intention of getting into any kind of relationship.)
I don't have a specific time, but Kunnosuke was rescued from unspecificed, unnamed atrocities. While he wasn't given a chance to agree, the implication was meant to be that the alternative was effectively vaporization. Er , no, but ... nothing was forced except for Kinnosuke there. I don't think that romance is even implied in the epilogue between the two of them, except in the most abstract sense. Quite obviously, Nagato wouldn't have wanted either of them doing things that didn't feel like their own choices to them.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AM- How did Asahina find Kyon's reincarnation, that wouldn't seem to be within the capabilities of the future faction? Doesn't the whole premise violate the first tenet of time travel as given in the books, the one that mandates that Asahina must return to her own time because she doesn't belong to Kyon's time frame?
She tracked down a far future instance of Ryouko and asked her for help (or her bosses did). It would, except that Kinnosuke was removed from a point in history where no one would notice him vanishing because he would have died just at that moment (and according to history, still did).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 08:14:28 AMThus, at the moment I don't genuinely know what to make out of the story, as some of the most fundamental rationales and connections stay out of my reach.
Okay. You're trying to be too nice and supportive of a flawed story. :)
I knew it didn't work going in, and that's why it's a rewrite. It's become quite evident I can't really portray the ending I had originally conceieved in a way that anyone except for me finds uplifting (and your questions make me wonder if it even works for
me at this point).
I will try and work on a new revision ... eh ... later (haha, unintentional irony). The new take won't have room for an epilogue. I have some notes I made myself on this from yesterday, I think....
Yes. Here they are. These are pretty rough, but give a general idea of what I'll be going for now:
Most revisions can probably fit into chapter 7 alone. The bonsai conversation need to address why Kyon doesn't leave the branch on. Effectively, Kyon's answer is that the bonsai will take a very long time to heal with the limb left on, may not look as nice, and will require a lot more attention.
Revise scene with Mikuru to expand on Kyon's resentment that he can be fully honest with her and not Haruhi, to better echo the ending scenes.
Haruhi can come clean to Kyon during the picnic and say that she sometimes feels that she's that weak branch, and wonders if after everything, her daughter/son would be better off without her? Kyon can immediately counter (somewhat horrified at her thought process) that it's not true, and anyway, Haruhi's not stunted/groomed enough to be compared to a bonsai. He'll compare her to different plants before circling around and making his final resolve to tell her the truth, promising that he'll talk to her about something important that will prove she's more than the weakest branch -- but instead a powerful taproot (or something) -- after the baby's born. He should think that he will ask Tsuruya and Nagato for permission, but that no matter what they actually say, he feels he has to tell her the truth (later, he can mention he has their support).
Final scene is of Kyon and Haruhi together after she's given birth, before the child is named. Kyon will accept Yasumi (haha, unnamed at that point, though) from a blue-haired nurse he can't bring himself to look at because he's so distracted by Haruhi and her child. Kyon comes clean and tells Haruhi _everything_, because the deception is chewing away at him. Haruhi's stunned by everything, but believes him, though she's really disconcerted by some things. (She's not happy about Kyon being Kintaro's father and not marrying Tsuruya, but she lets it slide because Kyon says it would jeapordize Kintaro's inheretance/the fact that he's also the masked poet.) When Haruhi gets angry and starts to complain, "Why did you lie to me!?" He can say, "Because it was true at the time! Just like when I first met you, you asked if we'd met before ... and you had met me, but I hadn't traveled back in time to call myself John Smith yet." (Haruhi will listen to anything, then.) When it's all finally done and over, Haruhi decides to name her baby Yasumi, claiming that Kyon said she 'made up' a little girl before, so now that they've made one together.... Ryouko will be super-subtle here, but after Yasumi is named, can hand her off to another attendent and remark, "I hope you two continue to enjoy your time together!"
This is what I'm moving forward with, because regardless of content, my vision is to create something that more than just I will enjoy.
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMI'm just sorry that I've already decided not to keep the current ending for this story. :(
I should probably feel relieved because I was again afraid of unduly affecting your decision, but if you made it before my barrage of questions then ... okay. In any case, you should never give too much weight to my opinions, as I represent a vanishingly small and unpopular point of view on all kinds of issues. >.>
If I may still return to some of the issues despite the fact that you are discarding that route....
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMI was trying to show that Haruhi had not ever gotten over the past as much as Kyon wanted -- the one who chose to cut the extra branch/believed Haruhi was flawed was her.
Yes, I got that, and as I said, I watched the whole story through Haruhi's eyes. So, I got essentially the same meaning out of the scene that Haruhi would've gotten, and it messed me badly, as well. I'm absolutely certain that Kyon didn't
mean it that way, which makes it a Poor (Symbolic) Communication Kills (Literally!) moment.
Overall, I didn't see malice in any of the actions of the main characters. Tsuruya's husband, on the other hand....
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMThey are Michikyu Kanae (a slider) and Kyon himself (from an alternate reality -- the universe depicted in Kyon: Big Damn Hero).
Well, that explains. No wonder then that I couldn't make any sense out of the whole scene (as I haven't even started with that juggernaut of a fan fiction yet)!
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMI don't think that romance is even implied in the epilogue between the two of them, except in the most abstract sense.
I must be misinterpreting this sentence at the beginning of the epilogue, then:
Quote from: MegumiI lost the first great love of my life just as I met the second.
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMKinnosuke was removed from a point in history where no one would notice him vanishing because he would have died just at that moment (and according to history, still did).
I was of the impression that the fundamental problem is on the receiving end, not the sending one, as Asahina described her presence in Kyon's time as an extra cel added retroactively to a cartoon, meaning that she's not truly, completely there in the way that the people of that time frame are, which then causes problems.
Then concerning the alternative ending, if you drop the reincarnation aspect then, beyond making it a completely different story, it breaks some things. Perhaps most notably, the Koizumi - Kintaro connection will be much harder to notice because it will be the only one of its kind. Personally, I don't have anything against reincarnation
per se, and in some cases it may be a wonderful plot device for leaving unwanted baggage behind (as I believe was the intent here), but I can't figure out how it could be made to work flawlessly in this situation without some drastic changes to the basic structure of the story, and contrived contraptions to trace out the additional story paths that are needed for it.
I hope that my contribution has been more constructive than destructive.
I don't think we need spoiler tags anymore. >_>
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMI should probably feel relieved because I was again afraid of unduly affecting your decision, but if you made it before my barrage of questions then ... okay. In any case, you should never give too much weight to my opinions, as I represent a vanishingly small and unpopular point of view on all kinds of issues. >.>
I'm not entirely certain that's really true. I actually almost positive that no one liked the ending.
I won't lie; your questions had an impact, but even then, I
had decided that this ending just didn't work. Mostly because as the one person who seemed to understand my intent the most (quite honestly, no other reader picked up on the clues I left around like you did).... Admittedly, it does say something to me that you still couldn't see a positive meaning in what I was writing.
The questions you asked made me reanalyze my own reasons for wanting that ending originally, and I'll spare you the depressing realizations about myself and what that ending said about me -- I absolutely feel that the openly positive ending without denial is the way to go.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMIf I may still return to some of the issues despite the fact that you are discarding that route....
If you like; I somewhat hate the story that I wrote as opposed to the one I intended to write, (and will instead, now,) though.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMWell, that explains. No wonder then that I couldn't make any sense out of the whole scene (as I haven't even started with that juggernaut of a fan fiction yet)!
Well, it's something of a 'for fun' story, which means I take it a bit less seriously, and it's absolutely a departure from the canon storyline in almost all ways.... But for me, it is very fun, if it fails in any way to be truly meaningful. >_>;
And of course, since I'm not as bound by realism, I can write unreasonably happy endings (ideally) for everyone that would never work in the real world, but still make sense (hopefully) in context....
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMQuote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 10:12:19 AMI don't think that romance is even implied in the epilogue between the two of them, except in the most abstract sense.
I must be misinterpreting this sentence at the beginning of the epilogue, then:
Quote from: MegumiI lost the first great love of my life just as I met the second.
No, I didn't explain myself correctly. That's the abstract sense I was speaking of.
It doesn't say it has to be romantic love (quite obviously, that wasn't the kind of love she had for her father). I guess it is strongly implied, but I was reaching for the idea that they were given a chance and it was something they wanted.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMI was of the impression that the fundamental problem is on the receiving end, not the sending one, as Asahina described her presence in Kyon's time as an extra cel added retroactively to a cartoon, meaning that she's not truly, completely there in the way that the people of that time frame are, which then causes problems.
Explanation A: If I understand the comments from volume 11 correctly, that's not entirely true anyway, though. I'm under the impression that Mikuru has to stay in the past to undo the damage caused by other time travelers (which is what Fujiwara is trying to 'rescue' her from, so she could come 'home').
In this case (and I had no way to bring it into narration; another mark against this whole thing), Mikuru was using Kinnosuke for similar purposes, which would (incidentally) grant him some protection from IDSE meddling, because he was now critical to the timestream.
-OR-
Explanation B: Oh, yeah, that's another glaring plot hole, isn't it? Glad I'm scrapping this. >_<
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMThen concerning the alternative ending, if you drop the reincarnation aspect then, beyond making it a completely different story, it breaks some things. Perhaps most notably, the Koizumi - Kintaro connection will be much harder to notice because it will be the only one of its kind. Personally, I don't have anything against reincarnation per se, and in some cases it may be a wonderful plot device for leaving unwanted baggage behind (as I believe was the intent here), but I can't figure out how it could be made to work flawlessly in this situation without some drastic changes to the basic structure of the story, and contrived contraptions to trace out the additional story paths that are needed for it.
I don't think that's going to be a major issue. While the Koizumi - Kintaro thing becomes incredibly understated, it's also (now) almost utterly irrelevant except as a nod that, yes, this author has finally learned to stop beating up on Koizumi.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 05, 2011, 12:42:00 PMI hope that my contribution has been more constructive than destructive.
Sometimes we have to till a field before it's ready to support new life.
Thanks again for your insight. I think I'll need a while before I can finish this, but at least it will be a worthwhile story when I do. Your help is vastly appreciated. :)
Kintaro as Koizumi's reincarnation? Goodness, that never occurred to me. Now I feel slow. Given how much of that was running around, I should've seen it.
One thing I'd be concerned about with the proposed new ending is how much Kyon could possibly tell Haruhi in the span of a single scene while Asakura is there watching, too. In addition (and this is something I worried about when mentioning how the elephant in the room, Haruhi's true nature and her powers and stuff, goes unnoticed) is that all those elements seem very non-central to the story so far. Now, maybe the revision with Kyon realizing how he can share that with Asahina (who doesn't give everything she knows in return) contrasted against Haruhi will make that feel better. At any rate, I guess I only want to warn that there's a big info dump risk--you surely already know that, so let me get off that aspect. The role of Asakura in that scene...I guess it works. Is she going to age herself up to blend in to the environment?
I have the nagging feeling that there should be some sort of distant finale epilogue after all that, but I can't fathom what it should be. Hrm.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 05, 2011, 05:27:53 PMKintaro as Koizumi's reincarnation? Goodness, that never occurred to me. Now I feel slow. Given how much of that was running around, I should've seen it.
I didn't realize the implications the first time I wrote it, with Tsuruya's husband dying shortly before Koizumi. The original idea was (I think) supposed to be that they had parallels in their lives while apart; Haruhi gets into a dysfunctional relationship, Kyon's on the periphery of an even worse one.... I think it got dropped, and thus the original implications were unintentional.
But once I realized it was there, I thought it was a nice way to not bash Koizumi as much.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 05, 2011, 05:27:53 PMOne thing I'd be concerned about with the proposed new ending is how much Kyon could possibly tell Haruhi in the span of a single scene while Asakura is there watching, too. In addition (and this is something I worried about when mentioning how the elephant in the room, Haruhi's true nature and her powers and stuff, goes unnoticed) is that all those elements seem very non-central to the story so far. Now, maybe the revision with Kyon realizing how he can share that with Asahina (who doesn't give everything she knows in return) contrasted against Haruhi will make that feel better. At any rate, I guess I only want to warn that there's a big info dump risk--you surely already know that, so let me get off that aspect. The role of Asakura in that scene...I guess it works. Is she going to age herself up to blend in to the environment?
Well, Haruhi's powers pass to
Megumi Yasumi anyway.
The most graceful way around the infodump that I can conceive of is to generally imply instead of outright state -- and that will be done by Kyon actually writing her a story of what happened (a more concise poetic one than a reference to Kyon writing the original series), and the reader (since it's from Kyon's PoV), only needs to actually go through particular passages she remarks on aloud.
For Ryouko.... She's totally cheating and using a 'don't notice me' effect. I can have Kyon lampshade that she seems familiar, remark on hair color and length, but his attention keeps wandering (and note that she wasn't present until after Yasumi was born, thus dodging Haruhi seeing her before the powers are transfered).
But ... how to make sure they know the powers are transfered? Option a: They figure it out based on something that happens (potential high octane nightmare fuel on an infant with Haruhi's powers doing something obvious enough for them to realize it, yay). Option b: Mikuru tells Kyon flat-out that it'll happen (I feel this cheapens his resolve to tell Haruhi 'no matter what' because it becomes his resolve to tell Haruhi 'when it's safe'). Option c: Don't bother revealing it until the epilogue.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 05, 2011, 05:27:53 PMI have the nagging feeling that there should be some sort of distant finale epilogue after all that, but I can't fathom what it should be. Hrm.
*sigh* I couldn't come up with anything compelling either.
Yasumi in middle school, befriended by a middle-school de-aged Ryouko and led back in time to be the same Yasumi from novels 10/11, only pretending to be an incarnation of her mother's powers because she really, really wanted a chance to play with her parents when they were younger, based on their stories? Presumably Yasumi would be raised knowing what her powers were, and responsible enough to be trusted with them even from a young age, considering who all is involved in raising her at this point.
Edit: Huuu. I realize now that Kyon writing Haruhi a story (probably a very small book, vanity-published by Nagato), I can use my ancient, depreciated plot-point of Kyon using 'John Smith' as a pen-name! And without turning it into some bizarre take on Poe's Telltale Heart.
Would Haruhi passing on those powers to Yasumi be intended on her part? That is, in keeping with some idea she has about what she wants her child to be capable of, to make an even bigger mark (let's say) than she can? Or something else?
I definitely think not revealing Yasumi's inheritance until the epilogue is the best idea. Again, example scenario: Yasumi's entering high school and wants to resurrect the SOS Brigade. Maybe history repeats itself with interested parties already being around her, and at the end, she works some warping magic to make it all clear.
Going back to books 9-11 isn't bad, though. If that, then they should point out how easy it is to make an anagram of Haruhi's name with Yasumi as part of the base (and create some more timey-wimey chaos in doing so).
I really like Kyon giving Haruhi a book as his way of gently getting her up to speed. That is really, really amazing actually.
I want to play off Haruhi passing the powers on as something totally unexpected (Kyon being honestly willing to deal with her completely powered, or else the meaning of the sequence loses impact). For Haruhi's part ... yeah, I think passing her powers on will be her lingering resentment over things not working the way she expected giving way to the idea that it doesn't need to be perfect to be good. So, she won't have seen it coming, but she'll accept it, and probably come to embrace her and Kyon with an empowered child more than one of the pair having power that the other is somewhat afraid of (since it does seem in many ways that that power was the main difficulty between them).
Hm. An unexpected solution to the issue of the power coming between them. Seal it in a handy child.
Yasumi reflecting on her odd parents (cripes, how is that even going to ... ugh ... remodel the apartments into a single home? I guess Haruhi would probably be cool with that, once she understands the relationship between Kyon and Yuki. Yuki absolutely wouldn't mind...). Erg.
Huhu.... That's going to be ... tricky to write and have come across well. >.>
Anyway. The only real issue is that if a middle-school aged Yasumi is the one that goes back.... Haha ... borrowing her mother's old uniform and hair-pin.
Okay. Two options, then.
One: Apply the plot to middle-school, instead of highschool. No reason why the same plot can't just be applied at an earlier age, especially if Yasumi is better adjusted than Haruhi was at that same time, courtesy of her family. "I used to think my parents were the most amazing people in the world ... and then I met other peoples' parents, and realized it was totally true!" This does probably mean she doesn't need a romantic side-plot, but that's just as liable to be true in high-school, and lets me use Ryouko to foreshadow/hint that Yasumi will go back, and Ryouko will be with her to observe and help her out (probably, no, really).
Two: If I place it at her highschool entrance, then she's reflecting on what she's already done (and how happy she is to have her very own uniform instead of borrowing her mother's). Assembling members for another SOS Brigade would probably be okay, except, she already knows about everything (and her powers, and has traveled to the past, rescued her parents from death (what an awesome kid!), gotten to see her dad's room as a regular highschool teenager instead of a legendary poet, chastized him for keeping pictures of that Mikuru girl (Seriously, doesn't he know how that's going to turn out?) on the computer, she got to play with her mother at full-strength without anyone hurt....
Well, after all of that, the best reason she'd really have to gather other supernaturals is because she thinks they're 'stuck' watching her, and they'd have more fun if she rounded them up and helped them with their tasks so they could focus on having fun together.
I could do the first one in first person PoV, Yasumi's view. I think the second would be better from Kyon's PoV as Yasumi tells him what she's been up to on her first week of high school. Probably can end with some amusing note of him putting 1 and 1 together and asking to meet 'the token normal boy' in her club, who Yasumi will not have mentioned previously.
Hmm. I think I like one more, as it's more subtle. But I admit, the potential of Yasumi going through her actions in the novels in the context of looking out for her parents in a retrospective is kind of cute, especially as things click into place for Kyon/Haruhi and they realize that Haruhi's half joke was fully prophetic.
I'm really glad to hear the book idea works for you. I think it fits the scene, and can see him sitting anxiously at her side as she flips through it, growing more and more incredulous, pausing only to confirm a few details here and there.... Yeah, I think that scene will work. Excellent.
Hal has suggested the alternative of Haruhi's powers just disappearing, since otherwise I'm heading into stupidity by mood whiplash.
Guess I'll go with that, though that eliminates the epilogue's supernatural aspects, so I guess it'll just be regular-girl Yasumi reflecting on her awesome parents.
This does echo back to Mr. Cobb pointing out that I can't write good, serious endings, and they're all crappy and whimsical.
Quote from: Hal<Yukari-sama> You could work it in that they figure out that it's gone for whatever reason, and then focus on Kyon and Haruhi raising Yasumi to have that same appreciation for the unusual that Haruhi had - without having to worry about the power getting in the way or making everything too easy.
So. That.
Blrg.
Well, to summarize, the main concern I have is that the proposed endings do stand things on their head a little too much - one of the strongest features of the original story is the cohesive tone that it maintained throughout - a focus on missed chances and lost opportunities.
The suggestion I had was that at Yasumi's birth, Haruhi's power disappears entirely, making that the lost opportunity, even while another opens up with Yasumi herself. She'd be raised by her parents to hopefully develop the same fascination with the unusual and extraordinary that her mother had, with a bit more of her father's grounding in reality.
It could be set up that Yasumi could come into the power independently, too, to maintain the supernatural aspects later on; she's been raised on the stories of what happened with her parents when they were younger, never quite sure how much to believe, and unknown to her the power comes back to give -her- the opportunity, unknown to everyone else.
I'm fully aware that my thoughts on this don't necessarily reflect what a lot of others have said on the story, though, so if the tone shift that was proposed earlier is more what other folks want to see, it won't break my heart to see this idea left on the side. I just think that this has a bit more possibility to keep some of the melancholic feel of the overall story going, as opposed to handing Yasumi a beautiful life in a fait accompli. She should certainly have that opportunity, but as something she earns on her own merits, grounded in her parents' guidance.
Alright. I'll try and get through this as quickly as possible.
I keep telling myself that I'm not going to read a Haruhi fic because I never bothered to finish reading the books, then Bri keeps writing them so I give in and read another one.
Because I can't really claim to be familiar, I won't even try to comment on the fic itself. But there was one comment that Bri made that I'm going to respond to. In spoiler tags, because it's somewhat off topic, and could be construed as unkind.
Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AM
Well, either you are particularly perceptive, or the majority of people who read my story just aren't as able to pick up the clues as you are. :)
I'm actually quite pleased you caught those implications; the inability of the Henry Cobbs of the world to get what I was trying to do with this story depressed me enough that I pulled it down during the first re-write attempt (shamefully, this is the second re-write, but perhaps the third write will be the charm!) That and the fact that even though I have implied what you've picked up, I've (mostly) managed to avoid stating it. >.>'
Cobb was active on the FFML a bit earlier before I started, which was, itself, awhile before you joined. We had this strange pattern going for awhile, where I'd write some spamfic I'd manage to blow through in an hour or two, get a few public accolades, then he'd reply with a post "Oh hey, you all seem to have forgotten I wrote a fic like this first" and post a copy or link. It would typically be some fic that was similar in tangential ways "Akane is literally a witch" or somesuch, while ignoring every concept that actually made the fic work.
I can't imagine he was trying to latch onto my fame or anything, since I didn't have any. I pretty much have to conclude that he had no ability to actually perceive literary nuance.
People can always change, of course, and if he's still actively writing, I can only hope he's gotten better at it. But I still wouldn't take down a fic because Henry J Cobb can't understand some aspect of it - I rather suspect it has less to do with your writing than him in particular.
Quote from: Jason_Miao on October 05, 2011, 09:39:46 PMPeople can always change, of course, and if he's still actively writing, I can only hope he's gotten better at it. But I still wouldn't take down a fic because Henry J Cobb can't understand some aspect of it - I rather suspect it has less to do with your writing than him in particular.
He consistently fails to ever portray Haruhi as anything other than the worst sort of girl-shaped monster, and I call his portrayal of Kyon 'Victim Prime'.
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 09:44:51 PM
He consistently fails to ever portray Haruhi as anything other than the worst sort of girl-shaped monster, and I call his portrayal of Kyon 'Victim Prime'.
Oh. Haruhi = fannon Akane. Okay, I have him pegged now. New Cobb, similar to old Cobb.
So, why are you taking what he says seriously?
Apologies, Miao, that was undeserved. I failed to isolate in time. That's entirely on me.
Ah, realistically, I shouldn't have taken Cobb's commentary seriously, but this story happens to be very critical to me in a lot of ways that are very difficult to explain. Heh, talk about putting too much of yourself into a story....
To give you an executive summary, Cobb's ignorance ticked me off, and ... this was some months ago. Maybe three? Four? I'm too calm to check the logs right now. At any rate, I was taking the story a bit too seriously, and his commentary was a bit too MSTish for my tastes, and light on useful content.
It wasn't that I cared as much as I decided that I'd rather not post it to the FFML, if it meant getting feedback from him. Because his commentary was pretty much useless for my purposes. The only story he's ever commented on in a way that was helpful to me was Downfall (which suggests to me now that there are probably some se-heeeee-rious flaws with that story if he approved of it, in retrospect). Thankfully he simply stopped commenting after the first chapter.
But I digress.
I've settled down a bit and considered the epilogue issue from a few more angles and looked for the ideal compromise. It suits me quite nicely, lets me turn the story into something I will enjoy, and I think no one else should have any major objections.
I just won't write one.
My reasons for this are actually very straightforward. For personal reasons, I really want to avoid a 'downer' vibe, now. Going too far the other direction, well, for all my dislike of Cobb, I find that in retrospect, my stories do tend to either have endings that are somewhat vague (but optimistic) or specific, but way too over-the-top in terms of optimism. And for that, this story becomes too specific, if we try the epilogue. This is the best way to avoid ruining the tone the story has maintained so far.
So, I'll end with chapter seven revised to leave it on an uplifting note and let readers draw their own conclusions.
This leaves a lot of questions unanswered, but really, do they have to fit in the scope of the story? I've thought about it and realized ... not really.
Anyone else will be welcome to write their own epilogues.
Alrighty. Here it is, the revised ending.
I'm happy with this thematically, but I think it could use some polish.
(Edit: Helps when I remember the attachment, eh?)
The original chapter 7 and epilogue are still here for anyone who needs an 'extra bummer' version of the story. I'm thinking this will be the official version, however.
Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2011, 09:59:11 PM
Apologies, Miao, that was undeserved. I failed to isolate in time. That's entirely on me.
Heh. No worries. I felt confused, more than anything else. :)
Also, really sorry to hear that you'd actually felt poisoned against writing your own fic. That was pretty horrifying to me, when I read that. I've had stories which were frustrating, and stories that I wrote that I thought were great...that dropped into a void of silence. But I've never had the experience of not liking writing the story itself. Hope things go better with your other projects.
Quick impression: the book works, man. It really works.
Kyon slipping up and saying "our" baby is also pretty cool.
Near the end, 'Yuki was once an alien' should be Nagato, of course, as it comes from Kyon's mouth.
Other than that, the only thing I'm concerned about is that Asakura's reasons for wishing them well don't come across. I think some might think she's about to kill them or the child or something equally heinous off-screen.
I don't know if you already have made up your mind on the epilogue. I do want to say that Haruhi just losing her power to some outside force, to me, begs a lot of questions about the nature of that outside force and such. If she decided to strip herself of her power, I think that can be digested. I think I see what you mean, though: as cute as it is to think about little Yasumi's adventures, what does it do to conclude Kyon's journey thus far? That's an open-ended question because I think any ending can be spun any way you wish. Since I know you've gone through many iterations and have rethought this story a good bit (just as I have with The Coin), I only pose the question--in part because I don't want to pollute the possibilities with what I think you can do (as you've probably noticed, I do that a lot, and it's something I'd hope to improve--that I can get ideas across without being so concrete).
On another note, fridge question: how much does Tsuruya know by now regarding the truth about Haruhi, the brigade, and so on? It could be construed as a bit of a let down for her, not to be clued in on these things after so long while Kyon's telling Haruhi.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 06, 2011, 01:25:28 AM
I don't know if you already have made up your mind on the epilogue. I do want to say that Haruhi just losing her power to some outside force, to me, begs a lot of questions about the nature of that outside force and such. If she decided to strip herself of her power, I think that can be digested.
I'd suggest doing it as sort of a centipede's dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centipede%27s_dilemma) -- the power doesn't work if she's aware of it.
Looks like I'll have to reread this whole thing. I never caught on to any kind of reincarnation subtext in the original, though, so maybe I'm not observant enough.
Oops, thanks for the catch.
Heh, yeah, probably toning Ryouko down will help with that. I was aiming for a call back to her vanishing in book one, but I see in retrospect it doesn't lose its sinister overtones. She can have calmed down a bit, then.
Well, she may have power, she may not -- I'm ending the story before it comes up and letting people draw their own conclusions. If it gets across that the power is no longer relevant as an obstruction to them being together, then I'm happy with it.
Fridge response: Oh, dang, I didn't even think about that last part. Hmm, yeah, I think by that point she'd have to be clued in. It wasn't like she hadn't seen Kyon get healed from her husband's assault, after all. Plus, it'd diminish the theme of honesty and trust bridging difficulties (a theme I find I like a bit more than the original one, so that was entirely worth it).
Edit: Updated the first post a bit to find the entire story, since it's gotten a bit scattered.
Now I'm starting to understand how Kyon must have felt after the joining of the timelines in book 11....
Ok, the new ending works, it's sweet, upbeat and down-to-earth at the same time. It doesn't require any epilogue, and any threads that were left hanging are rather inconsequential. I'm happy with it as it is.
If you ever want to write a more emotional portrayal of Haruhi, then this would be the perfect opportunity, right after she has finished reading the book. Pregnancy and delivery already mess up the hormone balance, and the book makes Haruhi suddenly see her (and Kyon's) entire life in a new light (and also reminds her of the path that was barely averted), so a ... less composed reaction would be completely understandable at that point.
If the motives of Asakura need clarification, the natural place to work that into the story would be at the point where she saves Kyon from Tsuruya's husband.
I don't see any problem in Tsuruya's relation to the revelation, as it is rather well established, both in the books and here, that she knows that something is going on but she doesn't want to pry. If anything, I would assume that she'd chide Kyon for not letting Haruhi know earlier.
I can do a full re-read of the story once you're satisfied with the whole set.
Quote from: Jon on October 06, 2011, 01:33:03 AMI'd suggest doing it as sort of a centipede's dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centipede%27s_dilemma)
Hmm ... that's something that might fit perfectly in the fic that I'll be writing next ... if nobody minds a blatant idea grab >_>
I still need to figure out what Haruhi offers in chapter six, though. And some more polish on chapter two ... I think those are the major remaining issues.
I think as fragile as Haruhi has been throughout this story, the ending's a good place to let her show her strength by keeping everything together after all.
I can't think of anything else major I want to revise.... Alright. I'll try and take care of those last revisions today. As always, thanks for the feedback. :)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 06, 2011, 10:08:22 AM
Hmm ... that's something that might fit perfectly in the fic that I'll be writing next ... if nobody minds a blatant idea grab >_>
Go for it!
Okay, Drac updated attachment limits, so the entire fic is now here:
http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,101856.msg1025408.html#msg1025408
Thematically this is final (though, I _still_ couldn't figure out something for Haruhi to offer in chapter six ... not sure what to do about that). There may be some grammatical errors but generally, but I think it'll all be polish. Otherwise I'll let this rest for a week and come back to it with fresh eyes to figure out what to do about that part. :x