Players, attention!

[Anastasia]

I've been talking to a lot of you and gotten game ideas. Could you toss your ideas into here so I can organize and deal with them better? Feedback is welcome as I set this up.

[Dracos]

<Dracos2> you're avoiding the repeat dungeon system right?  or using that again?
<Anastasia> This dungeon is not fair. I will not play nice. Expect to be hit back and not get away with the same tricks forever. There will be moments of asshole DMing. You will die, often in hilarious or painful or gruesome ways. Roll with it.
<Anastasia> Mmm.
<Anastasia> I'm still up in the air about that.
<Anastasia> I'm thinking of a more randomly or semi randomly generated dungeon setup with some points in each floor set.
<Anastasia> Kinda like how some randomly done dungeons in RPGs are done these days.
<Dracos2> Might work.  I'd suggest that each floor is sort of a unique trial.
<Dracos2> Everyone loses, we lose ground in some scoreboard or sense

Random rabble.

I dunno, it sounds though like wacky might be more fun as a way to take it :P

[Carthrat]

I think we're going to be in trouble if the game assumes the party begins together and generally stays together. Progress will be too slow with 5 people playing by post, no matter how optimistic we are. Any dungeon design should accept this and encourage or enforce splitting up. In general we should aim to have smooth play with few breaks.

For example, a simple method is a dungeon that has two starting locations with the party distributed between them, and to 'win', tasks must be accomplished on either side. Communication and timing may or may not be possible (it might be that everything must be coordinated post-death in spiritland for the second run), and there may or may not be intersection.

Another concern is combat. I'd like it infrequent and to require careful planning as opposed to 'you see three bears! roll init'. Same goes for any challenge, actually- but combat in particular takes years, as we all know to our chargin.

[Corwin]

I have to say I agree with Rat's suggestion re: two starting locations or somesuch. If we have to plot at the speed of one post per day between people from incompatible timezones, I just might cry.

Dying in the previous variant was hilarious, especially since I brought it on myself with low int and backstabbing allies. Waiting ages as they began to actually play carefully FROM THAT POINT ON was hate, though. Let's avoid that~

[Carthrat]

Reading the rules topic...

Hmm. I'm all for comical and wacky dungeons and stuff. But this is one game where

GAMING FOR BLOOD!!!!!111

could actually be neat. Incentives to actually win on our first try (and at least some chance of this being possible) would be cool. As a general axiom, I feel we should never *have* to die to succeed in the dungeon.

Also.

You are not allowed to build a copy or a near copy of an avatar form for the next venture in. You have to try something different. Skirting close to violating the spirit of this rule will result in a balor skirting close to your health and well being.

Is this rule really necessary? I get that it's probably supposed to inspire creativity or prevent us using some hyper-efficient avatar over and over again, but I think it might start to irritate me later down the line, particularly if I have some plan that requires certain abilities arranged *just so* but I'm not allowed to put it into action because I've already done something like it.

If anything, I think you can trust in our own desire to try stuff out in general rather than mandating this (I certainly won't be playing a druid every run, even if it is the most sensible option guaranteed.)

[Carthrat]

Aditionally, Cube should be mandatory viewing for all players.

[Ebiris]

It would probably be better to unlock classes/abilities based on their utility/power rather than just what book they come in. If we have all the core classes to start with then that's wizard/cleric/druid right there if you want the most powerful option, and it won't matter if we unlock psion or binder since they're objectively weaker.

Also I think it might be neat to offer 'one-off' rewards. Like say doing X lets the player use a +ECL race with no level adjustment in their next avatar, but once said avatar dies they can't use it again.

[Anastasia]

My first thought on starting really low is to start you guys with either one of these:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm

OR

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/classes.htm (The five NPC classes on the far right.)

[Anastasia]

We're at five players right now; Laggy, Rat, Eb, Drac and Cor. I have two more interested parties: Gatewalker and Merc. Considering the high turnout I'm going to to be using multiple groups at the same time for certain now, up to perhaps three of them depending. I've tentatively capped things at five; I can try up to seven but I'm undecided on that.

Guys, could you list what times are good for you in EST? This'll make my work a lot easier.

[Ebiris]

I'm good with generic or NPC classes to start with, although we need to open up weird and wonderful classes that never see play later on - I want to try a binder and a warlock at some point.

As for times I can post on SR from work (I can't roll, but I can trust the GM to do it for me), so basically any time that I'm not sleeping. Say 6pm EST to 4am?

[Anastasia]

Reading the rules topic...

Hmm. I'm all for comical and wacky dungeons and stuff. But this is one game where

GAMING FOR BLOOD!!!!!111

could actually be neat. Incentives to actually win on our first try (and at least some chance of this being possible) would be cool. As a general axiom, I feel we should never *have* to die to succeed in the dungeon.

Also.

You are not allowed to build a copy or a near copy of an avatar form for the next venture in. You have to try something different. Skirting close to violating the spirit of this rule will result in a balor skirting close to your health and well being.

Is this rule really necessary? I get that it's probably supposed to inspire creativity or prevent us using some hyper-efficient avatar over and over again, but I think it might start to irritate me later down the line, particularly if I have some plan that requires certain abilities arranged *just so* but I'm not allowed to put it into action because I've already done something like it.

If anything, I think you can trust in our own desire to try stuff out in general rather than mandating this (I certainly won't be playing a druid every run, even if it is the most sensible option guaranteed.)

1. Agreed. I'm going to design things where it's possible to succeed on your first try, just not likely. Rewards for good play will follow. Eb had a good idea about free +ECL races or temporary boons for this, or perhaps needing to do so to unlock some particularly juicy bit of goodness.

2. Kinda-sorta? What I'm getting at there is that I don't want you making the same character and blindly throwing them at problems until enough blood and luck solve it. The idea is to encourage you to try different results and different approaches beyond a few comfort zones. I'm trying to avoid situations where only one class or one setup can have a prayer of winning an encounter.

You do make a fair point and I'll take that under consideration.

[Anastasia]

I have to say I agree with Rat's suggestion re: two starting locations or somesuch. If we have to plot at the speed of one post per day between people from incompatible timezones, I just might cry.

Dying in the previous variant was hilarious, especially since I brought it on myself with low int and backstabbing allies. Waiting ages as they began to actually play carefully FROM THAT POINT ON was hate, though. Let's avoid that~

Yeah, the wait was the worst part of the first attempt. I need to concoct something that allows for much swifter rejoining - I may just be cheap about it and have respawn points be fairly common, with the option to wait in the void if you need to or some shit. I'll have something worked out there in a few days. Suggestions welcome.

[Anastasia]

Update: Laggy had to drop, so we're at 4 confirmed people. I think I'll just do six now since six divides so well. (2 teams of 3, 3 teams or 2, ect.)

That means players are now: Eb, Gate, Cor, Rat, Drac and Merc.

[Dracos]

ah, fast moving topic is fast. :)

I'm generally most available around 10-11 pm EST onward.  Except on weekends and craziness.

Lots of good ideas too.

A)Respawn points.  I think that's a good idea.  Anything that keeps players in play = good.

B)Temporary/One Shot rewards for special things?  I really like this.  And with the feeling of it being temporary, there's less odds of a "Oh...giant."  *Squish* "man there goes permanent benefit."

C)Multiple teams sounds good.  Especially having to interaction asynchronously.

D)Letting GM roll using an OOC message on action = Awesome.  :) Definitely would help with posting at random intervals.

E)I don't favor starting really low.  2nd ed frontloads more character decisions than 3rd ed does, so I'm a big fan of starting a few levels in on 3rd ed.  If we do, I favor the npc classes and keeping out particularly odd character bases.  Monster+Character+gestalt+base classes=confusing and time consuming character to build.  I'd say keep Attribute Points, Races, Classes, SpecialAbilities and Items as your adjustment points and leave special templates/point based, etc stuff left out.  Things that are added that make the options cooler without adding significantly to character creation time is best.  Basically, its a game where we die a lot and thus create characters a lot.  The more complex char creation gets, the slower this loop is for quickly going "I died, new char, let's roll"

F)Multi teams can allow for other competitive goals as well.  The challenge could be part circus for the dark lord.

G)Recall that without any additional knowledge, the first run is simply random characters.  Last time I leaned standardly on the first run on 'What will get me the most information for my second run', thus usually a rogue or cleric.  If there is ways to get info on future dungeons, ideas, whatnot, it might lead to actual directed strategy on the creation side, which would be fun.  Even as simple as "knowing who you're with" is going to lead toward some of it.  I think that could be interesting, even if some of it is sometimes wrong or fake.  Basically, avoid the first run being pure chance as much as possible.  Yes, some build xs will simply be bad, but we'll start leaning naturally to build reliable rather than build wild/fun/weird if being wild/fun/weird drastically increases our chances of being curbstomped off the bat.

[Carthrat]

I don't really have a regular schedule and I don't know what time offset EST is at, even after all these years. Since I'm looking for a job at the moment, making promises right now would be dumb.

I'm fine with starting low. Level is purely relative to the threats we face, and if we don't start off with that many options anyway then being level whatever won't mean so much. It's all just numbers anyway. 3rd level is fine.

Respawn points scattered through a larger dungeon would probably be fine. Items that confer instant ressurection would also be fine.

If we do things episodically and treat every first run as a 'gather information' run, I will so play as a dwarf barbarian who took toughness three times, constitution 18, and aims to simply run through everything and live as long as possible to see what's what. >_> (At level 3, that's 46 hp! Not bad...)