[Haruhi] Character studies

[Halbarad]

Not a specific fic idea, but since we're getting a fair number of Haruhi authors and fans to chip in of late, I wanted to toss this out for general discussion.

Brian and I tend to kibitz on IRC while at work about fic and characterization ideas, but we've both noted that our ideas about characterization tend to run along fairly similar lines - so my thought was to open up some of our common areas of discussion to get a wider range of thoughts.

With that in mind, I figured I'd start with character studies - and specifically, to start with the character that we both love to hate - Koizumi. I'd invite folks to post their thoughts about him as a character - how do you view his motivations? What makes him sympathetic (or not)? Do you tend to view him in a particular way, and if so, why?

I'll post my own thoughts on this in a bit.

[sarsaparilla]

Somewhere else I estimated that on the Myers-Briggs test Koizumi would score an ENTP:

ENTPs are quick to see complex interrelationships between people, things, and ideas. ENTPs are motivated by a desire to understand and improve the world they live in. They are usually accurate in sizing up a situation. They may have a perverse sense of humor and sometimes play devil's advocate, which can create misunderstandings with friends, coworkers, and family. ENTPs are ingenious and adept at directing relationships between means and ends. They tend to be laid back, nonjudgmental, and good conversationalists. Generally informative rather than directive in their social exchanges, ENTPs are often able to explain their own complicated ideas well, and to comprehend the complex ideas of others. In arguments they may use debating skills, often to the significant disadvantage of their opponent. This strategy can backfire, however, by alienating those seeking a cooperative relationship rather than a combative one.

I see Koizumi primarily as a tragic character. He was chosen (without giving him a say on the matter) at a tender age and burdened with the responsibility of appeasing an unpredictable godlike entity, or endanger the entire existence. He can never be himself and any feelings that he has for Haruhi will always remain completely one-sided. His purpose, his whole existence is to be there for somebody else, and even worse, it isn't even him who does that since the only purpose of the real Koizumi is to hold a cardboard mask, a theater prop, because somebody has decided that one is needed.

I expect the real Koizumi to be most of the time frightened, frustrated, tired and just plain depressed.

[Muphrid]

This is not something I should be doing while trying to grade homeworks for more than half of a graduate electromagnetism class, but.

Koizumi is someone I really want to take at face value in terms of his professed loyalty to the brigade, but I don't regard that sentiment as being entirely clear-cut.  It would be one thing if, in the beginning, he and his colleagues merely meant to keep Haruhi's mental state in check, but they take a more active role than that (e.g. the island mystery or, more recently, the student council president).  Perhaps there is trust in Haruhi on Koizumi's part, but that trust is clearly not unlimited.  That he and his people feel the need to give Haruhi a distraction even as late as #8 speaks to, in my mind, a certain level of caution at best.

Why does Koizumi talk so much?  Kyon certainly seems to think that Koizumi talks much but says little.  I'm not sure if Koizumi's tendencies in this respect are meant to distract and deflect, to feign understanding of something beyond him, or to genuinely attempt to make sense of the world he's in.  If the latter is the case, then a plausible interpretation of Koizumi is that he's every bit as lost as Kyon is sometimes and is just waxing philosophical about the possibilities with no real idea about anything.

In connection with sarsaparilla's comment, then, the question remains:  who is the real Koizumi?  Is he so different from the character he plays in front of Haruhi and Kyon to be unrecognizable?  I do think it's reasonable to consider him a blank slate underneath if one chooses to, but I find that interpretation a bit dangerous because then it says we know almost nothing about who he is, only the person he "plays".  I don't think the "real" Koizumi is much different from the one we see.  Overall he seems to take being an esper in stride (as much as we can infer that in hindsight).  But I do admit he seems very guarded, meaning there's a lot of freedom to paint his inmost character to suit.

[sarsaparilla]

If the latter is the case, then a plausible interpretation of Koizumi is that he's every bit as lost as Kyon is sometimes and is just waxing philosophical about the possibilities with no real idea about anything.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, this interpretation would get indirect support from one small detail: during the culture festival Koizumi was acting in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, a play with characters that exactly match your description.

In connection with sarsaparilla's comment, then, the question remains:  who is the real Koizumi?  Is he so different from the character he plays in front of Haruhi and Kyon to be unrecognizable?

I assume that the MBTI profile is, if not correct then at least very close to the real one (which tells something about what makes him tick), but what comes to the real person behind the mask, his true aspirations and fears, I think that he might indeed be unrecognizable without the mask.

Beyond that, on the metafictional level, I suspect that Koizumi is used more as a plot exposition device than as an actual character, and thus he has received by far the least amount of actual attention. It must be tough when even your creator doesn't care about you too much... <.<

[Halbarad]

The approach I tend to take to Koizumi is less positive (which I alluded to in the initial post, granted.) I don't discount the fact that he's been thrown into a position that he didn't ask for and has to deal with someone that he isn't sure whether to consider a god or not; he certainly has reason to be overwhelmed.

I think the main point of divergence for me is that I judge him more on how he reacts to that feeling of being overwhelmed. In contrast to Mikuru (who's in a fairly similar position from all we can tell), he puts on a very obvious mask, tends to act condescending towards Kyon, and specifically sows distrust of Mikuru in Sigh, unprovoked. The second is arguably colored somewhat by Kyon's views of him (since we are viewing things primarily through his perceptions, he's likely overblowing some of it), but Disappearance!Koizumi does indicate that he has reason to be jealous of Kyon - and it's not unreasonable to extrapolate that this extends to the real Koizumi as well. Admittedly, Sigh is where most of the negative coloring takes place for Koizumi, and there could be an argument to be made that he's dealing with feedback from Haruhi there (who's also going to be pretty distrustful of Mikuru at that particular point).

The other major point that tells against him is how quickly and easily he lies to Haruhi during the snow mountain incident. Kyon does consider how to lie to her, but freezes up - and then Koizumi tears straight off into BS'ing an explanation that she clearly doesn't buy. As well, if Kyouko is to be believed in the later novels and Koizumi really is the head of the Organization, then he's also blatantly lied to Kyon as well, by claiming to have had to write a letter of apology. This point does rely on believing Kyouko (who's not entirely innocent herself given her complicity in Mikuru's kidnapping attempt), but if there's any kind of truth to it that does cast Koizumi in a much worse light.

To me at least, these indicate that whatever his reason for being that way, Koizumi isn't someone inclined to trust anyone else. I do think he comes to develop this more for Kyon through the progress of the novels, but it's not really supported to a great extent why - whether he's just accepting the fact that Kyon is going to be the greatest influence on Haruhi and hoping for the best, or whether he really does trust Kyon to make the right call. Given the suspicious nature he demonstrates early on, it's a hard call to make.

This isn't to say that he isn't sympathetic or having a hard time, but the way he tends to deal with those issues tends to drive him further away from the rest of the group, not closer to it.

[Brian]

Some thoughts on Koizumi.  First:

Horrible, Hateful Bias (-or-) Hyperbolic and Undeserved Vitriol Towards the Most Punchable of all of Haruhi's Creations: the Esper.

Okay.  So, I do have a dislike of Koizumi, and frequently am unkind to his character.  I have reasons for it.  I'm not going to say my biases and opinions are justified; actually, I consider my dislike of Koizumi something I need to work against to improve my writing.

That being said, this is an explanation of my opinion, not an argument that it's right.

First of all, I deeply empathize with Kyon, as his thought processes and some of his behaviors align with my own, which means, hey, this is a guy I identify with.  I also (probably a bit too much), listen to our unreliable narrator when he complains about Koizumi.  So, I see Kyon not much liking Koizumi, and I take the same view.

After that, Koizumi is (generally), somewhat smug to Kyon, when not condescending in his behaviors.  Realistically, especially with Haruhi using Koizumi as a role-model to Kyon (giving him the vice-commander position to try and motivate Kyon to 'improve' himself, etc.), Koizumi comes across as someone who is basically a lot like Kyon, except slightly better in every single way.

Koizumi is established as more intelligent (the advanced class placement), better looking (he's got fangirls), and stronger (when Kyon loses his temper, Koizumi has no trouble restraining him).  What does our unreliable narrator have that Koizumi doesn't?

Presumably, that Haruhi actually likes him, and his own attitude.

Now, that's drifting into Kyon, but anyway, that's the reason for my biases, by-and-large.

That all being said, I'm trying to overcome those biases and be nicer to Koizumi in general.  (Sorry, downfall!Koizumi ... it just ... felt really easy to apply Utopia Justifies the Means, there.)

Right.

Somewhat more objectively (though, Hal has pointed this out before me), Koizumi's the only one of the Brigade to really put effort into creating dissention between any of the members.  Admittedly, Sigh was a great chance for every character to really _not_ shine, but that particular instance has left me ... suspicious of Koizumi.

As is said before, as well, we don't really have very good insight into what Koizumi's character is like behind that mask; it could be almost anything.  Koizumi himself only says that he thinks that Kyon would probably not like the person behind the mask.

Beyond that, on the metafictional level, I suspect that Koizumi is used more as a plot exposition device than as an actual character, and thus he has received by far the least amount of actual attention. It must be tough when even your creator doesn't care about you too much... <.<

Haruhi: "I care plenty!  I gave him that vice-commander armband!"

I pretty much agree with that assesment of Koizumi being Mr. Exposition more than his own character....  It's also the case that it feels like Koizumi was passed over for character development and growth -- and even Mikuru, who gets very little development, is touched on more than he is....

And now I have a meeting, so posting this before getting a chance to read what Hal just posted. :x

[thepanda]

I actually like Itsuki. He's the kind of character you'd expect to find in Cyborg 009 or the like (competent cold war spy with a scifi twist). I hold that his 'slip of the tongue' in Sigh about the battles going on in the background was close enough to the truth.

Remember that when the brigade was first formed they weren't friends. They were three observers from three factions who got sucked into Haruhi's antics. In that light, Itsuki's actions seem perfectly justifiable. He's trying to save the world, after all. Trying to manipulate Kyon was no worse than any other factions actions through Sigh, at least.

Likewise, I do think his character developed. Brian said he's like Kyon, only more so, and I'd agree. I figure over time he's come to realize Kyon isn't nearly as dumb as he likes to think of himself as. From Kyon's perspective Itsuki is a guy hiding behind a mask, but what does Kyon look like from Itsuki's perspective? I'd imagine not that different. If he comes off as pompous and long winded, it's because he's trying to talk to Kyon as an equal. Vitrolic best buds, maybe? He seems comfortable enough around Kyon to let his mask drop often enough.

I also like how he has an intelligent, inquisitive nature. The times when Yuki lets slip just a little too much information and he latches onto it make me grin. I can't help it.

And, boy, this was rambly. I really shouldn't try to split my attention so much.

[Muphrid]

It's true that Kyon's narration may color perception of Koizumi somewhat.  Kyon doesn't have the patience for Koizumi's ramblings, but it may well be that Koizumi is just genuinely fascinated by all the stuff he talks about.  It seems like a distant, intellectual type of fascination, though.  What gives him emotional satisfaction seems like another matter entirely.

[sarsaparilla]

Concerning Koizumi's lack of trust in the motives of the other factions, that kind of comes with the package and he's been slowly growing out of it. His archetypal background is a secret society; paranoia and intrigue are part of the main course. Furthermore, his faction lost the superpower lottery (Koizumi's abilities are a textbook example of What Kind of Lame Power Is Heart, Anyway?) and they lack the insight and perspective that both IDSE and time travelers have. Basically, they are the designated janitors of the Haruhi-verse, forced to clean up the mess after the fact.

What I'm trying to say is that Koizumi is there because he originally was a poster boy for a particular genre (agent/suspense/thriller) that Haruhi wished into being, and what little character growth he has received has been distancing himself from that starting point.

Also, I keep getting back to Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. I think that there's something immensely poignant in that reference, about minor characters trapped in a play that they don't ultimately understand, without any real chances of affecting the course of the play or even their own fate in it.

All that said, no, I'm not a Koizumi fangirl but I think that I can see where he's coming from and relate to that.

[Brian]

What I'm trying to say is that Koizumi is there because he originally was a poster boy for a particular genre (agent/suspense/thriller) that Haruhi wished into being, and what little character growth he has received has been distancing himself from that starting point.

The most sympathetic interpretation I had from the novels (before discussing/considering other points of view) was that ... when Haruhi gained her powers (and thus, Koizumi did as well), at that time he was her ideal.  A mysterious esper (who would go on to become part of a secret organization).  That's what the thirteen year old Haruhi wanted, and then Koizumi's What Lame Kind of Power is Heart could be amplified by his Designated Hero status (once he met Haruhi, anyway).

But, the Organization plotted, planned, prepared, and then sixteen year old Haruhi (now already somewhat bored of thirteen year old Haruhi's original thought, and remembering John Smith anyway) met Kyon first, and suddenly her interests changed.  Koizumi showed up a day late and a dollar short ... and then has to do his best, stuck so very, very close to what the Organization was planning (and maybe he wants, too).

Koizumi mentions bloody fights behind the scenes and passes it off as a bad joke; maybe behind the mask, he's really somewhat bitter of being forced to watch, and then having to deal with Kyon making the second-best-possible choices (and, back to downfall!Koizumi). >_>;;

Of course, that's very hyperbolic; I could see faint shades of that in the story.  At least a sense that Koizumi feels he lost out just by not showing up on time; I ... seem to remember Koizumi mentioning at one point his arrival at the school and introduction to the club were earlier than he had anticipated.

Many of the other points are well made, especially about the Organization having reasons to resent/be afraid of the other factions' superior knowledge.  Those are things I'll absolutely keep in mind. :p

[Arakawa]

After posting 'Shuffle!' Brian complained that he isn't very good (yet) at writing Sasaki.

To bring the discussion here, sarsaparilla said something like this

Concerning Sasaki in particular, I think that you have managed to capture her dutiful, tolerant and considerate side very well. Beyond that she has clear philosophical tendencies. An introvert, she lives primarily in a world of ideas, interconnections and principles, but she also has a very keen eye on small details and human psychology in general. In the MBTI test I would probably peg her as an INFJ. I have seen it suggested that she might have covert schizoid tendencies: a lower than normal sense of entitlement, a need to keep other people at a 'safe' distance emotionally, and an inability/difficulty to openly express strong emotions, especially anger.

Whereas I noted that, while remaining mostly likeable, she somehow also gave me a very inhuman and alienating vibe, similar to the one I get from Bayesian rationalists - one that I usually don't get from Brian's portrayal of her, FWIW. I can't for the life of me figure out what Sasaki has in common with Bayesian rationalists (as a 'normal person' I think the latter are just weird), beside from a certain... disdain for wishful thinking, maybe?

Clearly we seem to be getting different things out of this character.

EDIT: also, this fic by Yudkowsky is probably a good way to see at a glance exactly why, in spite of being tempted to make the Bayesian-rationalist connection with regards to Sasaki, I feel uncomfortable actually making it:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5588986/1/Trust_in_God_or_The_Riddle_of_Kyon

I really couldn't imagine Sasaki writing a fic like that.

[Brian]

I really couldn't imagine Sasaki writing a fic like that.

Hmm.  I now wonder what kind of fanfic Sasaki would write....

[Halbarad]

Hooray minor necromancy.

Anyway, in seeing the recent discussion on Insight, it strikes me that there's another character of which people have wildly divergent opinions and insights, and for good reason: Haruhi herself. In her case, there's quite a bit more substance to judge her on than our previous subject, as she's one of the two main characters of the novels themselves.

That said, there's a fairly wide range of interpretations of her character - from borderline (or actually) abusive tsuntsun (screw dere, who needs it?) to almost bipolar oscillations between melancholy and mania. Some interpretations are easily justified by the canon simply by changing the emphasis on certain aspects of her actions; others, not so much. She's also one of the characters that sees the most growth in the novels, even as her role in them shifts more to the background in the later books.

How do you see Haruhi? What are the significant points of her personality, and how does her growth change them (or leave them unchanged)? Is there a particular reason you're inclined to see her in that way?

[Brian]

This probably deserves a more well thought-out response, as I'm feeling a bit dizzy and headachey, but:

By the end of novel eight, I see Haruhi as someone who as grown from nearly sociopathic (complete lack of empathy for others) to significantly more well-adjusted -- if still energetic.  Ultimately, I see her as someone who learns from her mistakes (even if she can't easily admit she's made them), and isn't likely to do the same thing twice if it didn't work the first time.

There's a lot to her, but generally, I think her greatest strength is the fact that she grows from the brigade being her playthings, to people she cares about.  Her brashness and disrespect for propriety still come through, but in the later books, in a slowly more positive light; she makes up excuses to order Kyon to study (because she cares about his grades (because she cares about him)).  Mph.  More on this when I'm clearer-headed.

[Muphrid]

I have the nagging suspicion that any interpretation I can put together of Haruhi will still be woefully inadequate in some way.  I definitely see Haruhi as having improved significantly in her social skills and ability to interact and tolerate people.  Because of that, Haruhi has left the spotlight somewhat, but there are still some questions about her that demand answering.

1) It's clear that she's attracted to Kyon.  Does her inaction in that area stem from a continued dismissive attitude toward love in general?  She seemed to be more positive in this respect after the Nakagawa story.  Is it anxiety, instead?  Fear of rejection is a more sympathetic answer.  Unlike Kyon, who at least tries to gently mislead the reader into thinking he has no overt attraction to Haruhi, I question whether Haruhi would present herself the same way.  Is she aware of her feelings and trying to suppress them?

2) Over time, Haruhi has seemed to become more content with "mundane" happenings and relationships.  Sakanaka is an oft-cited example, and this is taken to signify that Haruhi has realized she can lead a fulfilling life without amazing happenings (that she knows about).  Nevertheless, if something fantastical were to happen in front of her, how would she react?  Would she approach it with the same gusto and enthusiasm that she would've had before?  Instead, would she have a greater perspective about it and be less willing to go all the way in investigating it when that could challenge the new outlook she's developed?

3) The friendships Haruhi has with the brigade may have started as somewhat forced and coerced on her part, but they seem to have developed into more genuine affection on her part as time has passed.  How much of that affection depends on her perception of the others, as contrasted against reality?  Does she appreciate Koizumi because he's a yes-man or something more?  What does she like about Asahina and Nagato beyond the roles they fill in the brigade?

4) Assuming a personality explanation, why doesn't Haruhi make fantastic things happen in front of her face and realize what they signify?  Is there an implicit contradiction where, if she made such things happen, they wouldn't be fantastic anymore?  Does this mean Haruhi is doomed to fail in this respect because the discovery of something fantastical would by definition make it common and ordinary?

I think there's considerable freedom in answering these questions because we only ever see Haruhi through Kyon's eyes.  That said, the picture of Haruhi that appeals to me is one who's more aware and willing to admit her feelings for Kyon, at least to herself, and has chosen, for various reasons, not to act on or share those feelings.  That could be the one area of her life where Haruhi's trademark confidence and enthusiasm really waver.  I do think Haruhi has come to terms with the world quite a bit, and while she would be sorely tempted by the idea of something amazing, it would erase a lot of her growth if she merely disregarded what she'd learned and forgot how to take pleasure in the normal world.  I think Haruhi is very fond of the brigade now, perhaps blindingly so, or else how could she ignore the inconsistencies in their behavior?  The picture I get from that and (4) is of a girl looking for people to share experiences with, so she doesn't feel like the only "sane" woman in the world who realizes that humanity should have its eyes peeled for marvels and miracles.  This, to me, is a way she can be content with not finding spectacular people (knowingly) herself because the brigade has helped connect her with the rest of reality.

I don't think this is the only valid interpretation of Haruhi, though.  Far from it, I'd really like to hear what other people think about how her goals have shifted over time and what she ultimately wants because I still feel my understanding of this character is quite incomplete.