[Haruhi] Sympathy

[Arakawa]

I'm just confused as to what Haruhi's thinking.  If she thinks Nagato has both keys, why is she surprised upon receiving one?  If she doesn't think Nagato has it, then why is she asking for it?  One of those questions applies.  Is the answer in the text and I just missed it?

I think Haruhi was expecting Yuki to take her down to (whatever place in the school they keep the spare keys for the clubrooms), and was surprised to see Yuki just pull one out of her pocket and give it to her.

Yuki then explains that Haruhi can have this key now, while Yuki will go get the second key (for herself) in the morning.

[Muphrid]

Okay.  I guess I got a little lost trying to figure out where that second key could be during the conversation.  The idea that it could be somewhere else--in storage or wherever Nagato will retrieve it from--didn't occur to me.  And then missing that line didn't help matters.

[Brian]

Okay--  I'll try to make the key thing clearer, on the key think.  Looking back, I think I get something of what you were trying to say Muphrid; Kyon has the risk of coming across as infallible because he's being passive.

That ties pretty directly to Sarsaparilla's point about him not really even having much of a reaction.  That's an area that needs work.  So, need to find the balance of that and not making Haruhi look worse.

Alright.  Thanks for the clarification on the station, too; presumably the novel locations don't perfectly match the location reference shots from the anime.  I'll go with Muphrid's correction for that one.

Thanks again for the feedback. :)

[Grahf]

So--  Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic?  I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this.  I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices--  But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.

Perhaps working in the fact that she's so actively searching for strange beings would be relevant. At this point it's not implausible for Haruhi to think that Yuki has heard about her reputation through the grapevine somehow, and is perhaps being passive-aggressively snide to Haruhi as a way to throw her off balance.

It might not make her more sympathetic, but it makes her general anger seem more well placed. Perhaps other people have tried to pull pranks of this sort on her in the past (although of course that's neither here nor there in canon) and she could be sick of it, especially after coming to a new school.

[JonBob]

Hmm, I initially interpreted the title as Haruhi needing to have sympathy for Kyon and his situation, not necessarily that we would be sympathetic to Haruhi. So, if the gist is the latter, I'll need to re-read over the chapters to get a feel for that.

On the key thing, it could probably be clearer, but apparently I connect the dots fast enough to assume your original intent.

On the idea of Haruhi musing about having those powers, I think it's amusing and actually in-line with her character; if someone has something that's interesting, she'll want it/want to see it.

I'll have to agree with Sars that Kyon and Koizumi are a bit absent.

As for the meeting with Yuki, I suppose it matches Kyon's meeting with her, except more outward sarcasm and frustration/anger.

[Brian]

Chapter 4--  A revision of chapter three is up, as well.

[Muphrid]

"And before that, when you wanted a clubroom, someone else just happened to have one, and raise no complaint when you take it over," she continues, sounding bored with the idea already, examining her nails.  "Then you need a fifth person to fill up your club, and someone shows up who happens to cater to the interest of the most important person in your club, hmm?"

There might be a tense issue here; "raised" perhaps?

Evading Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I quickly track Mikuru down to an empty classroom--  The same one I found her in the first time, actually.  She's got the same dreamy, distracted expression on her face, too.

Mikuru-chan?  Or not?


Asahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it.  It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth?  In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack.  But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches.  There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there?  If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?

At first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke.  Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate.  Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done.  I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.

[Grahf]

Mikuru-chan?  Or not?

I can't speak for potential intent, but this didn't bother me because it seemed like a conscious choice on Haruhi's part. There are a couple of instances before Mikuru's reveal where Haruhi doesn't use chan though, like:

Koizumi-kun draws the next marked toothpick, and then Mikuru draws an unmarked toothpick.

and

"Oh, Nagato-san," Mikuru say slowly, looking bothered -- irritated more than anything else.

Also, should the say in there be said?

After Mikuru's reveal though the only time that Haruhi calls her Mikuru-chan is when she's talking in front of Kyon and it's clear that Haruhi is trying to be antagonistic towards her.

Spoiler: ShowHide

On a note of concern about the future, I did notice that after Koizumi tells Haruhi he's an esper that she wants to date him and he shoots her down. I'm curious then because that means that he'll have to do something that proves it to her, right? Because if not then like the other members she's not just going to take him at his word, not to mention that this version of Koizumi doesn't seem to be appealing to her in the slightest.

[Arakawa]

* Arakawa  is happy because the fic is hitting its stride and I can follow what the point of it is!

Now for a spot of C&C.

Haruhi is weirdly consistent in referring to Koizumi as Koizumi-kun. (She says "Koizumi" without "-kun" exactly once in this chapter.) For some reason that's starting to feel a bit off to me. Maybe there's some connotation to it I'm not quite grasping?

Mikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. Mostly unsurprised.

So is she nonplussed, or is she unsurprised? The two notions are kind of at odds here.

If suggestions are at all cared for, then...
"Mikuru-chan looks vaguely nonplussed about the entire thing, {but mostly unsurprised.}"
"Mikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. I'd expected her to act at least slightly more surprised to hear that {Yuki was capable of pulling a stunt like this!}"
"Where I'd expected her to look surprised about the entire thing, Mikuru-chan just looks... vaguely nonplussed? Like I'd told her that {insert suitable analogy here}."
etc.

As written right now, the point that 'nonplussed' is a very understated reaction compared to 'surprised' isn't really coming across, and it just looks odd.

EDIT: okay, the following hasn't happened yet. Hm. I'll worry about it whenever it comes up.

Spoiler: ShowHide

On a note of concern about the future, I did notice that after Koizumi tells Haruhi he's an esper that

Huh? Koizumi tells who what when?? For some reason the version I'm able to download doesn't have anything of the sort... even after redownloading. It ends with Haruhi shouting at Kyon that both he and Mikuru are phony and then everyone dispersing from the clubroom.

[Grahf]

Huh? Koizumi tells who what when?? For some reason the version I'm able to download doesn't have anything of the sort... even after redownloading. It ends with Haruhi shouting at Kyon that both he and Mikuru are phony and then everyone dispersing from the clubroom.

I was going off of what he posted in a general outline earlier. I'm not sure if the plans have changed. It occurs to me know that I should really spoiler that (which I'll do after I'm done here). But I'm curious as to how it might be handled, given that so far Haruhi has reacted to the reveals with a mix of confusion, disbelief and annoyance since no one is actually willing to provide any proof for their claims.

Sorry about the confusion and or spoilage.

[Brian]

"And before that, when you wanted a clubroom, someone else just happened to have one, and raise no complaint when you take it over," she continues, sounding bored with the idea already, examining her nails.  "Then you need a fifth person to fill up your club, and someone shows up who happens to cater to the interest of the most important person in your club, hmm?"

There might be a tense issue here; "raised" perhaps?

Y...es.  That seems to be it precisely.  Changed to 'raises,' since it fits a little better.

Evading Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I quickly track Mikuru down to an empty classroom--  The same one I found her in the first time, actually.  She's got the same dreamy, distracted expression on her face, too.

Mikuru-chan?  Or not?

At this point, not.  Decidedly not.

Asahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it.  It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth?  In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack.  But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches.  There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there?  If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?

Hum.  I want this handled in story, not in responses in C&C.

Mikuru outright states she wouldn't bother except that (1) Yuki did it first, and that (2) she doesn't believe it will change anything.  There is also a less well explained implication that Mikuru's pity for Haruhi is genuine, and she's trying to actually help Haruhi.  Why else would someone who could turn on the moe act like a switch slip up and look sorry for Haruhi?

Naturally, from her own PoV, Haruhi can't see it that way, and playing it up too much costs Haruhi sympathy by making her blind to someone trying to help her out.  I may have to figure out another approach.

At first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke.  Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate.  Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done.  I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.

Hmm.  That sounds like the premise is sound, at least, but the execution is still off....  Then again, Haruhi labeled Mikuru's antics an act even before that reveal, so hmm.  I think it's adequately forshadowed?  Erg.  Well, I need to fix the fact that it feels off that Mikuru bothers giving a reveal -- maybe careful word choice could help.

Or maybe instead of being subtle, Mikuru should tell Haruhi outright that she's trying to help, but knows it won't do any good.  That'd probably stun Haruhi into silence at least long enough to decide that she didn't believe Mikuru.  I'll have to consider my options on that one.

Sorry for the delay--  As always, thanks for the feedback. :)

[Brian]

Mikuru-chan?  Or not?

I can't speak for potential intent, but this didn't bother me because it seemed like a conscious choice on Haruhi's part. There are a couple of instances before Mikuru's reveal where Haruhi doesn't use chan though, like:

Koizumi-kun draws the next marked toothpick, and then Mikuru draws an unmarked toothpick.

Yeah -- I should have caught those.  She should conisistently be 'Mikuru-chan' in Haruhi's narration until her reveal.  I might redo some or parts of that scene to address Muphrid's concerns, though, so will need to pay close attention to that transition again.

"Oh, Nagato-san," Mikuru say slowly, looking bothered -- irritated more than anything else.

Also, should the say in there be said?

Should be 'says', but yeah, tense error on my part. >_<

After Mikuru's reveal though the only time that Haruhi calls her Mikuru-chan is when she's talking in front of Kyon and it's clear that Haruhi is trying to be antagonistic towards her.

Glad that worked.

Spoiler stuff!

Ah, yeah ... we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.

The outline raises questions, because it's incomplete.  Don't worry about that too much; those kinds of comments are great for the planning phase; they've spawned many an idea in the pile....

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. :)

[Brian]

* Arakawa  is happy because the fic is hitting its stride and I can follow what the point of it is!

Now for a spot of C&C.

Haruhi is weirdly consistent in referring to Koizumi as Koizumi-kun. (She says "Koizumi" without "-kun" exactly once in this chapter.) For some reason that's starting to feel a bit off to me. Maybe there's some connotation to it I'm not quite grasping?

Just the honorific she labels him with.  I fixed the one missing instance.  It shouldn't feel more off than Kyon calling Mikuru 'Asahina-san' constantly.

I'm not sure why the consistancy is 'weird'?  Maybe it feels off because there's so many fanfics where Haruhi just calls him 'Koizumi', just like she doesn't in canon?

Mikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. Mostly unsurprised.

So is she nonplussed, or is she unsurprised? The two notions are kind of at odds here.

[...]

As written right now, the point that 'nonplussed' is a very understated reaction compared to 'surprised' isn't really coming across, and it just looks odd.

Yeah, that's clumsy on my part.  Okay....

Mikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing.  Almost completely unsurprised.

EDIT: okay, the following hasn't happened yet. Hm. I'll worry about it whenever it comes up.

Excellent policy.

Thanks for the replies.  Hmm.  In general, I seem to be making fewer mistakes in characterization, judging by feedback.  Excellent! :D

[Brian]

I was going off of what he posted in a general outline earlier. I'm not sure if the plans have changed. [...] But I'm curious as to how it might be handled[...].

Well, I'll try to have the next chapter finished tonight -- or at least this weekend -- so you can find out. :)

[Muphrid]

Asahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it.  It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth?  In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack.  But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches.  There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there?  If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?

Hum.  I want this handled in story, not in responses in C&C.

Mikuru outright states she wouldn't bother except that (1) Yuki did it first, and that (2) she doesn't believe it will change anything.  There is also a less well explained implication that Mikuru's pity for Haruhi is genuine, and she's trying to actually help Haruhi.  Why else would someone who could turn on the moe act like a switch slip up and look sorry for Haruhi?

Naturally, from her own PoV, Haruhi can't see it that way, and playing it up too much costs Haruhi sympathy by making her blind to someone trying to help her out.  I may have to figure out another approach.

I get the pity.  It's just that, maybe it's Haruhi's percpetions or maybe it's the text itself, but Asahina comes off hostile or sneaky when she's not pitying Haruhi.  For example:

"What makes you think you believing me is important to my goals?" she returns, shaking her head.  "Calm down and think for a minute."

...

"Let's be clear," Mikuru-chan replies, smirking.  "None of us are in your club because it's fun -- except maybe for Kyon-kun.  Did you really think that members like this would just come together for you?"

...

"And all it took was standing in the right place and looking lost in a daydream," she returned.  "Just when you were hoping to find someone....  Let's see--  Someone who looked 'cute' and 'harmless' -- someone non-threatening to you that still held appeal?  Someone that even you thought that Kyon-kun would smile at?"

...

"Let me just say this much," Mikuru returns, giving me a smile that looks strangely sympathetic.  "You make my assignment ... <em>very</em> easy."  She gives me a doe-eyed look at that, sniffling, slipping <em>right</em> back into her moe-mode, and for the first time ever, I think I have a negative reaction to cuteness.

To me, these lines paint the picture of a manipulative person who dismisses Haruhi because the latter can't see the truth that's in front of her face.  I definitely like the moment where Haruhi is sickened by just how jarring Asahina's act of being cute is compared to the base of her personality, but going back to the original question (why Asahina bothers to tell Haruhi anything), I guess a feeling of it not doing any harm because Haruhi won't believe is fine.  That is what she says, and I got caught up looking for a more complicated answer.  That said, I do like the idea of Asahina pitying Haruhi and, perhaps, genuinely wanting to support her in what ways she can.  It's just that those moments are somewhat spaced out, I guess.

At first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke.  Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate.  Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done.  I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.

Hmm.  That sounds like the premise is sound, at least, but the execution is still off....  Then again, Haruhi labeled Mikuru's antics an act even before that reveal, so hmm.  I think it's adequately forshadowed?  Erg.  Well, I need to fix the fact that it feels off that Mikuru bothers giving a reveal -- maybe careful word choice could help.

Or maybe instead of being subtle, Mikuru should tell Haruhi outright that she's trying to help, but knows it won't do any good.  That'd probably stun Haruhi into silence at least long enough to decide that she didn't believe Mikuru.  I'll have to consider my options on that one.

Sorry for the delay--  As always, thanks for the feedback. :)

Yeah, Haruhi knew Asahina wasn't totally genuine before this chapter.  I was just wondering, would Haruhi really take that?  She suspected before and she knows now that Asahina is not what she thinks, is manipulative and may even have more power over Kyon and than Haruhi herself thanks to this ruse, but then I saw she went into the clumsiness bit, and it was her way of paying Asahina back, of getting revenge in a small way or trying to reclaim power--that's what I meant, is that I thought Haruhi would fight back and she did, just on her own time and and in her own way.