[Haruhi][WAFF] White Day

[JonBob]

I appreciate that he caught a few days I've managed to miss that we needed to celebrate, but because he's such a slacker most of the time, I'm not exactly going to let _him_ know that.

This revision loses the impact of the first mention of him being in italics. Maybe remove the clause altogether and go with "I'm not exactly going to let _the slacker_ know, but I appreciate that he caught a few days..." But leaving the first mention of Kyon as "him" does have a certain impact... oh well, just another thought on it.

On the thought of Kyon's gift not being up to Haruhi's Valentine's gift, I think it's partially addressed by

"Wait, she thinks that was good? After I told her about what we did in the first place for Valentine's Day, she thinks that was clever of them?
Tsuruya sees my face at that and snickers, "Haru-nyan -- isn't that very fair of them?"

So that kinda redirects the focus of the conversation, away from "reciprocation of Valentine's" to "equal reciprocation among the brigade girls". But perhaps you could make Haruhi grouse a bit more before thinking about Kyon's finances.

[sarsaparilla]

I think I need a clearer understanding of your view before I can revise anything based on those thoughts, just to make sure I don't fumble and get something wrong.

If I understood the story correctly, it suggests that Haruhi thinks that Kyon's return gift is on equal footing with the gift he received from her for Valentine's day, but she's disappointed because she would have wanted something more and then reasons that the blame is on herself for not giving more in the first place. This would seem to be the gist of the sentences that I quoted.

However, I find it highly unlikely that Haruhi would see the issue that way. Certainly, if the epilogue of book #7 is anything to go by, she seems to think exactly the opposite and wouldn't see a set of off-the-shelf bracelets as a return gift of equal value -- and I'm not talking about monetary value which is completely inconsequential. That one doesn't give back something impersonal and off-the-shelf after receiving something personal and hand-made feels like a trivial issue to me.

Maybe you meant that Haruhi was thinking: "if I wanted Kyon to give more to me than to Nagato and Asahina, then I should have also given him more than they did"? That is a more natural line of reasoning, though one that disregards the fact that Haruhi actually did more by organizing the whole thing, but the issue of gift inequality still remains.

[Brian]

If I understood the story correctly, it suggests that Haruhi thinks that Kyon's return gift is on equal footing with the gift he received from her for Valentine's day, but she's disappointed because she would have wanted something more and then reasons that the blame is on herself for not giving more in the first place. This would seem to be the gist of the sentences that I quoted.

Yes -- but it's not saying that it's Haruhi's genuine belief, it's supposed to be Haruhi's ideals as tempered by the opinions of other people, who she's come to respect.  Tsuruya specifically.  This is difficult for me, because this point is one of the crucial factors of the fic.

It seems that the lines with Tsuruya and surrounding scenes had no impact for you, so I've failed to convey that (even through my last reply).  I'm ... not at all sure what to do to fix that; this is feeling more like you think the story needs a complete rewrite from the second scene on than any minor fix. :(

I apologize; I'm a bit frustrated at not managing to convey Tsuruya's influence (which I feel really addressed most of your concerns -- or should have ... but I evidently didn't do that well enough) on Haruhi's thoughts.  If you have any suggestions on how I could bring these in to the story to satisfy you, believe me, I'd be eager to listen.

However, I find it highly unlikely that Haruhi would see the issue that way. Certainly, if the epilogue of book #7 is anything to go by, she seems to think exactly the opposite and wouldn't see a set of off-the-shelf bracelets as a return gift of equal value -- and I'm not talking about monetary value which is completely inconsequential. That one doesn't give back something impersonal and off-the-shelf after receiving something personal and hand-made feels like a trivial issue to me.

Maybe you meant that Haruhi was thinking: "if I wanted Kyon to give more to me than to Nagato and Asahina, then I should have also given him more than they did"? That is a more natural line of reasoning, though one that disregards the fact that Haruhi actually did more by organizing the whole thing, but the issue of gift inequality still remains.

I'm really, really sorry to do this, but my translation of the canon seems to disagree with you. :(

"They're just obligation chocolates! They should be obligation chocolates, sort of! Actually I don't know why they have to call it obligation chocolates. Chocolates and chocolate cakes are both made of cocoa anyway,"

This story is already straining canon credibility by putting so much emphasis on something that Haruhi clearly denied.  To say nothing of her declarations that she wanted to put pepper in the cakes as a prank on Kyon, and then going on to say 'only because it's tradition' did she even bother....  I realize that this is just going on surface value, but I think it sells Haruhi (and her character growth) unreasonbly short to have her not realize how she was acting and know that, yes, if she'd been nicer to Kyon, he'd be nicer to her.

I really want to figure out a compromise, but I don't think I can make Haruhi as unlikable as you want her to be to be 'in character.'  Is it too unreasonable to just aknowledge I can capture her voice, but fail to present her character -- and then ignore it in favor of the happy ending? :(

I'm sorry this isn't quite good enough to reach your standards, and I feel especially bad that I'm not certain I can accomodate you here....  I'd feel even worse if this discouraged you from commenting in the future ... but I'm not really sure how to compromise, here.

Thank you very much for clarifying, and I'll just conclude with a final apology that I'm still not getting this right. >_<

[Brian]

On the thought of Kyon's gift not being up to Haruhi's Valentine's gift, I think it's partially addressed by

"Wait, she thinks that was good? After I told her about what we did in the first place for Valentine's Day, she thinks that was clever of them?
Tsuruya sees my face at that and snickers, "Haru-nyan -- isn't that very fair of them?"

So that kinda redirects the focus of the conversation, away from "reciprocation of Valentine's" to "equal reciprocation among the brigade girls". But perhaps you could make Haruhi grouse a bit more before thinking about Kyon's finances.

Right ... that may be one thing that could help.  Evidently that whole angle is very weak and didn't come through for all readers.

My current revision plans are to make it clearer that Haruhi recalls the 'not saying obligation' thing and maybe throw in more callbacks to the fact that she wasn't particularly nice about things in canon, and her regretting that.  This will tie to the turning weather a bit more, and also add some impact to Kyon (basically) ignoring her comments about it being obligation and throwing pepper in -- adds to the 'Haruhi and Kyon understand one-another at an unspoken level' aspect, which I am glad to play up.  Beyond that, in those reflections, I'll lampshade/emphasize that while she's not sure she agrees, she recognizes Tsuruya's comments as valid (unless that feels overexplored already, which ... it honestly may be >_<) and their bearing on her.

I may add a bit more or less, depending on Sarsaparilla's comments -- but I need to consider this more in any case and figure out how best to implement the fixes.

[Muphrid]

Let me interject here for a moment, just to try to sort things out.  I don't know if there's something in particular that suggests Haruhi thought Kyon's gift was equal to what she gave him.  Rather, she points out that Kyon and Koizumi had a higher burden, needing to give gifts to three recipients instead of two:

Kyon and Koizumi-kun did have to shell out the cash for those gifts in triplicate.  And the bracelets are decent quality, so even if they got a really reasonable price, three times that could be fairly hefty.  Koizumi-kun works part time, but he's a pretty nice guy -- more thoughtful than some people, usually -- so if he got us something nicer, he'd be making Kyon look bad.

But this is indeed all very secondary to issue of fairness, one that Tsuruya points out:

I guess Tsuruya hit it right on the head -- that was really fair of them.  They received equal gifts, and they returned equal gifts.

The "equal" here refers to equal between the boys (first) and then between the girls (second), doesn't it?  In other words, if this were a piece solely between Haruhi and Kyon, the issue of whether what Kyon gave her met the standard of what she gave him would be the most important thing to consider.  Instead, with the whole brigade involved, the comparison to other brigade members becomes more important, and I think that's what was intended to come across here.

Anyway, Haruhi could've dismissed the gift as not being worthy of what she'd given.  Personally, I see Kyon's choice of colors for her as enough of a personal touch to mitigate that, but mileage varies.  While I can see Haruhi being more demanding in a general sense, I think Tsuruya's presence and observations really short-circuit that pathway for her and instead get Haruhi thinking about what she's done to distinguish herself from the others.  Could she put value on her leadership and initiative?  Sure, but I can understand how she might doubt whether that really impresses Kyon in the first place.

[Brian]

Okay.  There's a tentative revision in the first post, based on the comments from #kitago (most of which were 'don't change it much').  I've made some relatively minor adjustments to try and address various concerns, but I think this is pretty much the limit of my ability on that count.  Haruhi behaving more entitled tends to detract from the 'WAFF' goal of the story, so there are some (hopefully) innocuous mentions that should demonstrate why she's behaving the way she is.

I'm not at all confident in them, so may roll back, depending on feedback.

[Muphrid]

Some last minute thoughts:

"A different color for each day of the week," Kyon offers.  Then he shrugs, adding, "I guess Koizumi-kun's is better for fitting the theme of the day, though; this just felt right since you're usually pointing out my off-color humor anyway."

I think this should be Koizumi.

Yeah, buying gifts that someone else made don't match the effort of me setting up that whole 'treasure hunt' thing.  That was a lot of work!  Even so, I can't think it's fair to complain too much after Tsuruya-san's comment.

Doesn't.

And other than not getting something special just for me from Kyon, didn't the day so far really work out nicely?  Aside from which, what went wrong was my own fault, looking back on things and keeping what Tsuruya said in mind.  That also means it will happen again unless I change things -- but now I know that.

Possibly "hadn't the day..."?  Also, things and things.

In general, the language added does seem to make it more explicit how Haruhi recognizes the disparity in what she wanted and how (un)likely her behavior made that expectation.  Pointing out the contrast between what Haruhi wanted to say and what she could actually bring herself to say helps, I think.

[Brian]

I think this should be Koizumi.

Oops--  Yes, got a little overeager with the finding and the replacing. x_x

Possibly "hadn't the day..."?  Also, things and things.

Thanks for this (and the previous) catch--  I would have missed those entirely. XD

In general, the language added does seem to make it more explicit how Haruhi recognizes the disparity in what she wanted and how (un)likely her behavior made that expectation.  Pointing out the contrast between what Haruhi wanted to say and what she could actually bring herself to say helps, I think.

Okay -- glad to hear it.  In the meantime, I've learned a valuable lesson on revision fatigue and posting something so close to the deadline; if I write a Tanabata fic, I'll try and have the first draft out a month in advance -- minimum.  :p

Thanks greatly for the feedback, especially since I know how irritating it can be to go through revision after revision. ^_^;;