General discussion/opinions

[Anastasia]

Re: Serith kitty cat chan!

Yeah, let's try having Iddy run her in combats. It frees me up from the bothers of running another NPC and allows him to coordinate closely with Serith. I'll still handle her RP reactions, and we'll see how that works out. This good for you, Iddy?

--

Seryf...well, she said it outright IC, she's never been the most nature orientedof rangers. She was trained protecting caravans and around mostly human towns...and she took a primary interest in swordplay. That said, I don't think there have been a huge number of opportunities for it, either. She crit failed the one tracking attempt, but she did manage to locate the path to...um...Corela's town! We haven't really gotten too involved with animals outside those bears, and as they were mind controlled...eh, the best she could do was quick deaths.

Mmmm. That said, I agree she is much more of a nature oriented swordswoman than a sword inclined nature person. I wouldn't entirely mind a shift in the direction of fighter, I guess, as itmakes a lot of sense for her as a character if nothing erupts to drag her back into the greeny deep. Hmm...straight up fighter just really didn't suit in my mind, she has a love for her swords, and a skilled practice with bows, but...she's always been a sort of mobile/specialized/individualist person than the sorta 'medieval martial artist' that fighters come across as.

Yeah. Despite the setting, there haven't been that many obvious animal chances. The best was the bears, but that was only if you were cautious and took a considerable amount of time, which didn't happen. So mmm, yes.

Anyway, that said, I agree with the second paragraph entirely. I wouldn't mind seeing Seryf become a fighter with a couple of minor ranger adds ons and proficiencies if that's where her role takes her. I'm fine with that as long as it's a natural, understandable and not obviously OMG UBER TWINK motives. Mmm. The root of it is that she doesn't quite -feel- like a ranger yet beyond two sword style being used. I suppose I could enforce loss of rangerhood if I feel it goes on far enough, but I'd rather do something more like the above with a gradual evolution away from it if it turns out not to fit Seryf's character. Thoughts, people?

[Asrana]

My most immediate rules thoughts say dumpping outright animal empathy/handling and priest spells in favor for being allowed to start taking weapon specialization (as in, 1 profficiency right now at 3rd to fill out the first level of it, then progress as normal).

That's an immediate, rules oriented thought, IC wise, I think it'd have more to do with the book on swordplay she picked up, and the increased group weapons practice we might get into with Elaine joining us sword whipping nutheads on the front lines. >_>

[Dracos]

I ask really that if we start having multiple people with weapon specialization that we do exercise restraiint.  I'm going to be trying to myself and spreading it out over various levels along with other weapons, techniques, etc; and I'd prefer not ending up one/two proficiency slots back in what is my primary advantage as a character regarding development.  My own twinking habits will end up with me flinging proficiency slots there early to keep up if so. Yeah, may be worrying a little but, I do that :).

Dracos
Bows?  Special weaponry?  Invented ranger bonuses?

[Merc]

Well, the only ones with specialization available as an option are you and Iddy, and maybe May if she goes from Ranger to Fighter.

I wouldn't mind seeing another person capable of casting cure spells (even if it's not till lv8), but if you do try to balance a switch between expertise/specialization by giving her a modified ranger/fighter kit, why not have it that she does get specialization available as an option to her, but it's worth a slot more of weapon proficiency than expertise? It does put some extra restraint on a character that's not strictly a fighter, but isn't strictly a ranger either.

[Carthrat]

Ranger Fighter?

Seryf shall be known as the RAIGHTER-

Gavin *will* be able to cast cure spells at level 8, but hmm. This sort of highlights the problem of having several similar fights in group. Maybe, instead of going the outright weapon-specilization route, May could focus on those 'local combat styles' mentioned in Combat & Tactics? Stuff like a +1 bonus to AC, or a free extra unarmed attack each round and the like.

I keep thinking of the 'Ranger' class in general as a 'sneaky fighter' rather than 'woodlands protector', which is why I kinda lumped Seryf as a fighter/rogue. Hmm. Well, food for thought.

[Asrana]

Seryf's never really be a 'sneaky' fighter, just 'light and fast'. >_>

Which would make some sense in giving her a weapon specialty/improved expertise, and mainting the requisite on studded leather (or maybe chain shirt? I dunno).

Restrict her from spreading her weapon repertoire?

I guess these things seem kind of inconsequential from the POV of 'I'm already sorta there', but it's the kinda thing that would go into a modded class, or at least that's my guess. ^^;;

[Asrana]

So y'know,c hatter with Dune and all leads to fun fun revisions and thoughts!

So the running theory at this point would be to:
Retain the following class features:
Tracking Profficiency as a part of class (Does not gain bonuses with levels)
Hide in Shadows/Move Silent per ranger
Two weapon style per ranger
Armor restrictions for class abilities as per ranger
Favored enemy as per ranger

Which prevents Seryf from using: Animal Empathy and ever developing Priest spells Her tracking abilities also aren't as stellar as the average rangers.

(This was formulated on the idea of what's actually been used so far, and reducing the extreme nature oriented aspects of her)


And then making an improved expertise/watered down specialization like the following:
   Improved Expertise (Access to, not a part of the class)
1 slot - 2/1 Attack Rate (Expertise as used so far)
2 slot (5th level min.) - +2/+1 Attack/Damage
3rd Slot (6th-9th level) - Speed Factor goes up, +3/+3 Attack/Damage
4th Slot (12th level) - +1 Attack beyond normal progression

Compared to normal Specialization --> Mastery --> Etc progression, this shifts the attack/damage bonuses to higher levels, and omits a critical range increase (?!), as well as an increase of weapon damage dice.

The idea behind this is that while Seryf was trained in, and loves nature, she never truly embraced the magic of her environment and instead focused on the hunting aspects of her training. Even more so than hunting, Seryf had a special love for swordplay, exhibiting a grace and ferocious speed with a pair of longswords.

Due to this, she's exhibited quite a number of traits normally shown in fighters rather than rangers with her chosen weapons, focusing on them much more than perhaps is normal for her class. While her skill with weapons has improved, it has stunted her work with animals and with the elements of nature itself. At the same time, her mobility and flexibility remain in practice, scouting, moving, and fighting in ways that heavier armor would seriously impede.

New Class Name: As of yet, undefined!

[Anastasia]

New sub class

Name: TBA.

Class scores needed: As Ranger for the moment, will mod later.

Group: Fighter.

HDs: d10

Warrior Con bonus: Yes.

THACO: As a warrior.

Saves: As a warrior.

Required proficiences - Hunting, Tracking.

Class abilities:

Tracking profiency as Rangers.

Hide in Shadows/Move Silently as Rangeres.

Two weapon style as a Ranger, reducing the penalty thereof.

Favored enemy as per Ranger.

Ability to obtain modified weapon expertise/mastery.

Class limitations:

Armor choice is restricted, studded leather is the normal limit.

No Priest spell progression.

No attracting followers as a Fighter or as a Ranger. (This is admittedly moot in this campaign, but I'm listing it for completeness.)

Focus:

Many elves are trained in the ways of forestry. Some of these elves become heralded rangers, protectors of what elves hold dear. More become mundane warriors, well trained but ordinary. But a select few fall in the middle. They excel at the physical and stealth oriented aspects of rangerhood like a thief, yet lack the empathy and bond with nature that is the true mark of a ranger.

These elves that find themselves inbetween are known as (To be determined).

EXP table:

Probably higher than a normal warrior, but maybe a little lower than a Rangers. I need to do some checking up there but that can wait as it's largely a balancing issue.

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Thoughts on this, everyone? Balanced, needs balancing, too close to Ranger to matter, what? I'm particularly interested in the weapon expertise table Hotaru listed - I'm debating on staggering the levels a little more.

[Anastasia]

Ranger Fighter?

Seryf shall be known as the RAIGHTER-

Gavin *will* be able to cast cure spells at level 8, but hmm. This sort of highlights the problem of having several similar fights in group. Maybe, instead of going the outright weapon-specilization route, May could focus on those 'local combat styles' mentioned in Combat & Tactics? Stuff like a +1 bonus to AC, or a free extra unarmed attack each round and the like.

I keep thinking of the 'Ranger' class in general as a 'sneaky fighter' rather than 'woodlands protector', which is why I kinda lumped Seryf as a fighter/rogue. Hmm. Well, food for thought.

Since this is relevant to the above, any suggestions, Rat?

[Carthrat]

Who, me?

Call her class the 'Stalker' class, so we can all make clever jokes.

And I still think that instead of Expertise being less-good specilisation, we should differentiate it completely.. but I wouldn't really know how, honestly, so I guess that's not much good.

Oh, and the modified expertise also omits the bonus 1/2 attack Grand Masters get. As that is fully sickly broken when combined with dual wielding and HASTE... (+1 year per casting isn't an issue for an elf. >_>)

[Dracos]

Sounds good to me.

As I noted to Ana privately and hotaru publicly: I don't have a problem with either this or normal specialization provided we're on the same general page skillwise.

Dracos

[Anastasia]

Stalker

Ability Score Requirements: Strength 13, Dexterity 15, Constitution 12

Races allowed: Elf, Half Elf. Humans are possible, but the particular set of circumstances to mint this class tend to be unique to elven culture.

Group: Fighter

HDs: d10

Warrior Con bonus: Yes.

THACO: As a warrior.

Saves: As a warrior.

Required proficiences - Hunting, Tracking.

Class abilities:

Tracking profiency as Rangers.

Hide in Shadows/Move Silently as Rangeres.

Two weapon style as a Ranger, reducing the penalty thereof.

Favored enemy as per Ranger.

Ability to obtain modified weapon expertise/mastery.

Class limitations:

Armor choice is restricted, studded leather is the normal limit.

No Priest spell progression.

No attracting followers as a Fighter or as a Ranger. (This is admittedly moot in this campaign, but I'm listing it for completeness.)

Focus:

Many elves are trained in the ways of forestry. Some of these elves become heralded rangers, protectors of what elves hold dear. More become mundane warriors, well trained but ordinary. But a select few fall in the middle. They excel at the physical and stealth oriented aspects of rangerhood like a thief, yet lack the empathy and bond with nature that is the true mark of a ranger. They may be wise or perhaps not, many are unable to grasp the true wisdom of the forest or never embrace it entirely.  Yet they are too talented at the other aspects of rangerhood to abandon them entirely.

These elves that find themselves inbetween are known as Stalkers. They blend away like rogues, fighting competently to defeat their foes. While respected in elven society as a notch below Rangers, full rangers tend to have anything from mild disdain to outright comtempt. They feel that these Stalkers are nothing more than 'dress up rangers' or rogues.

EXP table:

As a Ranger. While they lose some Ranger abilities, they gain enough to make it even out. If level limits are used, they cap at the same level as an elven or half elven ranger. Humans, of course, have no cap.

---

Weapon Expertise!


1 slot - 2/1 Attack Rate (Expertise as used so far)

2 slot (6th level min.) - +2/+1 Attack/Damage

3rd Slot (8th-11th level) - Speed Factor goes up, +3/+3 Attack/Damage

4th Slot (14th level) - +1 Attack beyond normal progression

[Asrana]

Looks alright to me, the shifts in the expertise aren't really all that invasive, I think...it keeps from a ZOOM ZOOM DONE kind of progression formally, though that was informally agreed upon. >_>;

ANYWAY, looks fine from my POV. And I guess the elven attitude towards them explains why Seryf really kept to her duties in human relations. <_<

[Anastasia]

Looks alright to me, the shifts in the expertise aren't really all that invasive, I think...it keeps from a ZOOM ZOOM DONE kind of progression formally, though that was informally agreed upon. >_>;

ANYWAY, looks fine from my POV. And I guess the elven attitude towards them explains why Seryf really kept to her duties in human relations. <_<

Heh to the first; that was intended. I trust all of you formally and informally and all, but I wanted it to look balanced on paper. Besides, I may apply this class to an NPC, so the exact build is important.

Yes. It does fit with Seryf's background.