Okay, this is my current focus. I really struggled with chapter one, which is an unfortunate, necessary evil. Ugh.
I thought it was allergies, but I think I may actually have a cold. Ugh.
Thanks to Hal for his help; apologies that I haven't done much revising, but I need to get past this chapter or I'll be stuck here forever. >_<
Latest update: Added revisions of prologue, chapter 6, and chapter 7 (which is now the epilogue).
Chapter the zeroth!
QuoteSometimes, like this, I wonder if maybe he thinks similar things -- that today feels off.
'like this' is a bit awkward. Maybe 'when things are like this'?
Quote"Well, that sucks for you, but I don't see how your financial irresponsibility has anything to do with us meeting up for the mystery searches. What, do you need bus fare?" I grumble at him.
Do we ever actually see a bus anywhere? Train fare seems like it'd fit a bit better.
QuoteGet to the point already -- what do you want to quit moping?
Somewhat awkward wording here - maybe 'what will it take to get you to quit moping?'
QuoteSomehow, the space to one side of Kyon ripples and distorts, disgorging Yuki's figure frozen just as Kyon's hand is, a knife suspended in a lethal stab towards his heart.
I'm... not quite sure what happened here? Did Yuki teleport next to Kyon and try to stab him herself with him stopping her, or is she stopping a currently disembodied hand (or knife) from getting to him? (as either would be somewhat plausible)
Chapter the first!
Overall, I like the flow of this a lot better now. =)
QuoteAsakura Ryouko was probably the most annoyingly persistent of them;
Works, but this is also Haruhi essentially meeting Asakura for the first time, so she'd probably make some mention of it - "the most annoyingly persistent of them was a girl named Asakura Ryouko", etc.
QuoteIn the meantime, from the opening athletic competition, I notice very quickly that Kyon is, or could be, a star athlete.
Should probably still be Boring-kun here, the next paragraph is where she picks up Kyon as his old nickname from eavesdropping.
QuoteDespite all that, he looks and behaves lazy
Maybe 'acts' instead of 'behaves'? The construct is a little weird.
Quote'going home club'
Personal preference issue here; I'd probably break this as "'going home' club" myself, but use or ignore at your discretion. Not really anything wrong with it as is.
QuoteMaybe he even had some part time job that just kept him remarkably healthy, and that's why he doesn't join any clubs.
Tense mismatch here. had/doesn't.
Quotebad-ass trench-coat
Badass I'm not sure can or should be hyphenated. Quite sure that trenchcoat shouldn't be, though - either trench coat or trenchcoat should work.
I love this paragraph, though.
QuoteI grumble about people who can't accomplish anything on their own, but he just ignores that to ask me about something else I did in middle school -- the talismans I hung up everywhere, this time.
Breaking the scene here seems a little abrupt; maybe she can say something to blow off the question or wonder where he's finding this stuff out about her.
QuoteYeah, well, if I applied myself just a bit harder and focused on just one thing, I could join any sports club I wanted, probably.
They're too boring to stick with for more than a day, but at least I can try them out.
Mixed message here - she
could join them if she made an effort, but they're already too boring, but she can do it anyway? Seems to start out that she's starting out somewhat positive, then going negative, then bouncing back to positive again. I'd think she'd just stay down on them - too much effort for what'll almost certainly be no return.
Quote""The legendary aloof 'beast girl' of east middle school falling for Kyon! Haha!"
Double quote at the beginning of the line, and East Middle School should be capitalized.
Quotea rumor that no one else from east middle school will believe, I expect
Here too.
QuoteI wasn't sure how to feel about it. He hadn't cracked the system entirely, but he'd figured enough of it out. He missed the significance of the numbers, and he didn't realize that I started counting with zero instead of one.
Nitpicky point, but the numbers is what he -did- pick up on. He missed the colors, and said he thought it would be better to start at 1 rather than 0. Doesn't change much here though.
QuoteThough, they're pale, and look like they need sun even more than the one girl in that club did!
Nix the comma after 'though'. Could probably stand to kill the one after 'pale' too, but that one's probably okay - preference on that one.
QuoteI mean, he pays me attention,
Maybe 'pays attention to me'.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 09:36:03 AM
Chapter the zeroth!
QuoteSometimes, like this, I wonder if maybe he thinks similar things -- that today feels off.
'like this' is a bit awkward. Maybe 'when things are like this'?
Yes; excellent suggestion.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 09:36:03 AMQuote"Well, that sucks for you, but I don't see how your financial irresponsibility has anything to do with us meeting up for the mystery searches. What, do you need bus fare?" I grumble at him.
Do we ever actually see a bus anywhere? Train fare seems like it'd fit a bit better.
I seem to recall a bus being mentioned, but train works just as well.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 09:36:03 AMQuoteGet to the point already -- what do you want to quit moping?
Somewhat awkward wording here - maybe 'what will it take to get you to quit moping?'
I'll go with that.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 09:36:03 AMQuoteSomehow, the space to one side of Kyon ripples and distorts, disgorging Yuki's figure frozen just as Kyon's hand is, a knife suspended in a lethal stab towards his heart.
I'm... not quite sure what happened here? Did Yuki teleport next to Kyon and try to stab him herself with him stopping her, or is she stopping a currently disembodied hand (or knife) from getting to him? (as either would be somewhat plausible)
Er.... Yeah, that part's muddled on multiple levels.
The former. Will restate.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMChapter the first!
Overall, I like the flow of this a lot better now. =)
Oh, good ... it was something of a struggle. @_@
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteAsakura Ryouko was probably the most annoyingly persistent of them;
Works, but this is also Haruhi essentially meeting Asakura for the first time, so she'd probably make some mention of it - "the most annoyingly persistent of them was a girl named Asakura Ryouko", etc.
And mention she's likely to be come class representative.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteIn the meantime, from the opening athletic competition, I notice very quickly that Kyon is, or could be, a star athlete.
Should probably still be Boring-kun here, the next paragraph is where she picks up Kyon as his old nickname from eavesdropping.
Oops; got it.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteDespite all that, he looks and behaves lazy
Maybe 'acts' instead of 'behaves'? The construct is a little weird.
She's investigated him a little more; I can probably change it to 'he is as lazy as he looks'.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuote'going home club'
Personal preference issue here; I'd probably break this as "'going home' club" myself, but use or ignore at your discretion. Not really anything wrong with it as is.
Hah, I had it that way earlier. Should have gone with my first instinct! I think the expanded quotation is something I went with from a translation.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteMaybe he even had some part time job that just kept him remarkably healthy, and that's why he doesn't join any clubs.
Tense mismatch here. had/doesn't.
Glad that I'm not all over the place like I usually am. >_>;;
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuotebad-ass trench-coat
Badass I'm not sure can or should be hyphenated. Quite sure that trenchcoat shouldn't be, though - either trench coat or trenchcoat should work.
Every so often, my custom library nukes itself. Not sure why....
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMI love this paragraph, though.
I couldn't help it. ^_^;
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteI grumble about people who can't accomplish anything on their own, but he just ignores that to ask me about something else I did in middle school -- the talismans I hung up everywhere, this time.
Breaking the scene here seems a little abrupt; maybe she can say something to blow off the question or wonder where he's finding this stuff out about her.
Yeah.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteYeah, well, if I applied myself just a bit harder and focused on just one thing, I could join any sports club I wanted, probably.
They're too boring to stick with for more than a day, but at least I can try them out.
Mixed message here - she could join them if she made an effort, but they're already too boring, but she can do it anyway? Seems to start out that she's starting out somewhat positive, then going negative, then bouncing back to positive again. I'd think she'd just stay down on them - too much effort for what'll almost certainly be no return.
That's reasonable. I was trying to hint that she would have liked people to ask her to stick around, but she wasn't pulling that off, this timeline. Clarity will win, here.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuote""The legendary aloof 'beast girl' of east middle school falling for Kyon! Haha!"
Double quote at the beginning of the line, and East Middle School should be capitalized.
Gotcha.
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteI wasn't sure how to feel about it. He hadn't cracked the system entirely, but he'd figured enough of it out. He missed the significance of the numbers, and he didn't realize that I started counting with zero instead of one.
Nitpicky point, but the numbers is what he -did- pick up on. He missed the colors, and said he thought it would be better to start at 1 rather than 0. Doesn't change much here though.
Oops. Easy fix!
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteThough, they're pale, and look like they need sun even more than the one girl in that club did!
Nix the comma after 'though'. Could probably stand to kill the one after 'pale' too, but that one's probably okay - preference on that one.
Yeah, that's clumsy; I'll reword: "Heck, they're so pale, they look like they need sun even more than the one girl in that other club did!"
Quote from: Halbarad on September 14, 2011, 10:45:47 AMQuoteI mean, he pays me attention,
Maybe 'pays attention to me'.
Right. Okay! Thanks for the feedback, Hal. :D
Ok, since I'm not in a position to make any comments on language, I'll just try to express my general impressions.
Ch#0
After reading the first two sentences I realize that this isn't Kyon narrating. A couple of more sentences and I'm almost certain that it's Haruhi. Confirmed at the end of paragraph six. Well done with capturing her thoughts despite the fact that we never hear them directly in the canon.
I have a problem trying to put the story on the timeline. The header mentions book 9 but if the event that Haruhi refers to is related to the Melancholy then one year from that should be beyond book 11, I think.
Kyon's money problems - actually, I was thinking about that as well at some point but eventually dropped the premise because it started to go into a passive-aggressive direction. As a distraction to something else, as in here, it works just fine.
The last part of the chapter is rather densely packed with important stuff and I had to slow down before (probably) getting most of it. Ok, this looks like a "what if" scenario that strikes me as immediately interesting. This part could be expanded just a bit to keep the 'information density' on the same level throughout the chapter, or otherwise the reader may miss some pertinent details.
Oh, and your portrayal of Haruhi in here rings very true to me. In fact it's Kyon who's harder to gauge now that we don't see inside his head.
Ch#1
Okay, a couple of sentences in and I'm starting to feel a cognitive dissonance. It's still Haruhi mode narration but the facts don't match ... then around paragraph 4 or 5 the realization dawns. Ok, I didn't see that coming but it's even better than what I expected ... and a bit scary, considering all the possible pitfalls. I'm already feeling for poor Haruhi!
Two sections (if sections are divided by a horizontal ruler) in, and I think that while the narrator is still Haruhi, she's somewhat removed from her portrayal in the respective passages of Melancholy. The original Haruhi was more aggressive, dismissive and competitive. I'm not certain how many traits you wanted to swap between Haruhi and Kyon, but these don't seem to have ended on his side either (fridge logic might suggest that we shouldn't trust Kyon's narration too much on these issues :)
Ok, after reading through it all, I think that the level of detail is about right. There's enough new material from Haruhi's POV to keep it fresh, and known plot points to keep it anchored to the timeline.
I must say that I find this Haruhi more sympathetic than any other I have ever seen (even at this stage of character growth), including the original. Your work underlines the hideous baggage that comes with being a God Mode Sue. I only learned to appreciate the original Haruhi after a significant amount of growth, and she still manages to squick me on occasion all the way to the latest books, but this Haruhi here is entirely likeable, and her shortcomings are believable and just make her more realistic. I am deeply impressed.
I am sorry that I can't find any constructive criticism at this point, this story seems to be proceeding perfectly fine.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMOk, since I'm not in a position to make any comments on language, I'll just try to express my general impressions.
All feedback is appreciated!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMAfter reading the first two sentences I realize that this isn't Kyon narrating. A couple of more sentences and I'm almost certain that it's Haruhi. Confirmed at the end of paragraph six. Well done with capturing her thoughts despite the fact that we never hear them directly in the canon.
Excellent; I was really apprehensive about trying to capture her with reasonable accuracy....
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMI have a problem trying to put the story on the timeline. The header mentions book 9 but if the event that Haruhi refers to is related to the Melancholy then one year from that should be beyond book 11, I think.
You are correct; this story was started before novels 10/11 were completed. There's also an implied resolution to that story arc that I didn't put much effort into -- Haruhi lampshades this by noting that Kyon was once angry at her, and once at Sasaki's friends.
This is meant to use all of the compatible novel 9 events, which means ... it would diverge before the timeline split, but the action doesn't take place until later.
Should I clarify this more in the story? Or maybe just leave a better note explaining where it diverges?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMThe last part of the chapter is rather densely packed with important stuff and I had to slow down before (probably) getting most of it. Ok, this looks like a "what if" scenario that strikes me as immediately interesting. This part could be expanded just a bit to keep the 'information density' on the same level throughout the chapter, or otherwise the reader may miss some pertinent details.
Does it feel too rushed or forced? Do you think providing more detail and slowing that down a little might help? (I may do that anyway....)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMOh, and your portrayal of Haruhi in here rings very true to me. In fact it's Kyon who's harder to gauge now that we don't see inside his head.
Excellent; my goal is 50% accomplished. ;)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMOkay, a couple of sentences in and I'm starting to feel a cognitive dissonance. It's still Haruhi mode narration but the facts don't match ... then around paragraph 4 or 5 the realization dawns. Ok, I didn't see that coming but it's even better than what I expected ... and a bit scary, considering all the possible pitfalls. I'm already feeling for poor Haruhi!
Ideal! My goal is to have her be (and remain) a sympathetic character throughout this entire story.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 15, 2011, 11:12:30 AMI must say that I find this Haruhi more sympathetic than any other I have ever seen (even at this stage of character growth), including the original. Your work underlines the hideous baggage that comes with being a God Mode Sue. I only learned to appreciate the original Haruhi after a significant amount of growth, and she still manages to squick me on occasion all the way to the latest books, but this Haruhi here is entirely likeable, and her shortcomings are believable and just make her more realistic. I am deeply impressed.
I'm glad it works.
To be completely honest, this characterization is pretty much how I try to interpet Haruhi in the canon anyway (if, in this story, played up even more sympathetically, since she no longer has the benefit of being the Ace (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAce)).
I'm ... probably not doing myself any favors in the long run, but I like Haruhi when she's likable. ^_^;
Anyway! Thank you for your feedback; that Haruhi feels close enough to be recognizable, while also sympathetic lets me know I'm on track with these chapters. Now to work on chapter two....
QuoteIt was one of those uncooperative days, though, where things didn't really go the way I like. It goes without saying, but it ticks me off when that happens; I always get that annoying sense of tension in the back of my head. I'm too young for it to be blood pressure, but it's no joke to say that the source of these pains is almost always the insubordinate.
It seems strange, using
insubordinate like this.
QuoteKoizumi frowns, looking between us, giving that creepily studying look he sometimes gets. Mikuru fidgets in her seat with a look of intent concentration, as though she were trying to understand something difficult. Yuki just flips to the next page of her book -- 'Time Enough for Love', today.
Does the closing single quote come before the comma after all?
Quote"I seem to have somehow spent almost my entire savings over the last year without really realizing it," Kyon mutters, crossing his arms over his chest and eying me as though somehow I lost his money.
Something bugs me about this sentence, about the structure of everything after "Kyon mutters" and how the speed of everything seems fast, but I'm at a loss for what could fix it.
QuoteSomehow, the space to one side of Kyon ripples and distorts, disgorging Yuki's figure. She's frozen in place, the knife in one hand suspended in a lethal stab towards his heart, as though pinned in place by his gesture.
A knife? What knife?
QuoteThis draws Boring-kun's attention to me and he turns slowly around in his desk to look at me with the same expression as everyone else. As if to say, 'Was I for real?'
Did you use honorifics in the prologue and I just didn't realize it?
QuoteIt'd be fun to imagine him as a crime-fighter, patrolling the streets late at night, but I don't see him as having the personality for that. Jumping from rooftop-to-rooftop in the dead of night, probably wearing some sort of badass trenchcoat, like some ... big damn hero?
I wonder where this could've come from. Hm...
QuoteIt doesn't take long to track down the girl that mentioned having a class with him last year -- a girl named Sakanaka. I capture her on the way to homeroom one day, surprising her by grabbing her shoulder and spinning her around in the hall.
I must wonder why Sakanaka and not, say, Kunikida?
QuoteI give Yanagimoto a flat stare. Is that really what they think an investigation means? Is that the only reason a girl would ask questions about a guy?
Ah, and here, more giving!
Quote"Oh, this is too rich!" Yanagimoto chuckles, rolling her eyes and flashing her teeth in a grin. "So, he hung out with some awkward girl that no one else got on with? You should be set, Suzumiya! Sounds like your perfect match!"
Oh, I get it. I see what you're doing now. Eheh.
QuoteWhat ... I actually get is a group that rivals the Mystery Research Club in terms of boring activities! A pack of ghoulish freaks who looks like they would burst into flame if they were exposed to proper sunlight! A bunch of giggling girls and two solemn, pale boys who take themselves far too seriously -- and seem to get along all the same anyway.
Who
look (instead of looks).
QuoteThey don't even actively investigate supernatural phenomena, they only discuss it!
Please! How can you consider yourself a research society if you don't actually research?
I don't think these lines need to be separate paragraphs.
QuoteThe biggest disappointment of the entire year so far! With something so unbelievably lame, and no real sign of him.... I'm forced to admit that if it weren't for Kyon, reminding me that I couldn't give up ... I probably would have.
After that ... though he was still annoying, I couldn't figure out why. He kept talking to me, though, so I kept talking back. Answering his questions, more than anything else.
I wanted to be angry at him for being so annoying, and a little bit, I was. I couldn't be truly furious, though ... even if he didn't realize it or mean to, he had showed me that I was slipping, falling back and becoming that person I didn't want to be -- another dull conformist!
It's interesting how much importance Haruhi attaches to Kyon at this point. I dare say it's necessary for the story, but I do wonder if our original Haruhi was the same.
Overall, about the prologue: it felt a little bit like people were irritated and angry for no real reason. Kyon being "out of money" sounds valid enough, but he walks in seemingly miffed about it rather than being "eh, whatever" until, say, he gets needled about the issue.
As far as the first chapter goes, I like that for the most part Haruhi is still Haruhi in terms of what she wants and how she thinks--that in inverting some things, you haven't gone overboard and completely changed how these people act. It's just the circumstances that are subtly different, and even then, only slightly. Once I realized what you were doing with Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I understood a little better what was being done. Would Haruhi have counterparts like this to Kyon's Taniguchi and Kunikida from the, er, original world? Maybe not, but they're effective, and because of that, I didn't find myself questioning their roles very much.
The only other thing I should say is that, while I like this so far, one can wonder what happens next without having any clear idea of what really could happen. Kyon seems basically no different despite the circumstances. The space of what could possibly change seems very open-ended--in my opinion, a bit dangerously so, but that's nothing a next installment wouldn't address anyway, so I'm not that concerned. It's interesting, and I hope Haruhi learns something, though I must admit, at this time, I have only a faint idea of what that might be.
Quote from: Brian on September 15, 2011, 05:23:28 PM
You are correct; this story was started before novels 10/11 were completed. There's also an implied resolution to that story arc that I didn't put much effort into -- Haruhi lampshades this by noting that Kyon was once angry at her, and once at Sasaki's friends.
This is meant to use all of the compatible novel 9 events, which means ... it would diverge before the timeline split, but the action doesn't take place until later.
Should I clarify this more in the story? Or maybe just leave a better note explaining where it diverges?
I think that either option would be fine. I understand it now that you explained it but the chapter is still a bit vague.
Quote from: Brian on September 15, 2011, 05:23:28 PMDoes it feel too rushed or forced? Do you think providing more detail and slowing that down a little might help? (I may do that anyway....)
Not forced, maybe a bit rushed. At some point I realized that I had just dropped the ball and I had to rewind a couple of paragraphs back and redo at a slower pace. It's not even that much about the pace itself as the quite sudden change of pace when a lot of stuff happens very fast.
Quote from: Brian on September 15, 2011, 05:23:28 PMTo be completely honest, this characterization is pretty much how I try to interpet Haruhi in the canon anyway (if, in this story, played up even more sympathetically, since she no longer has the benefit of being the Ace (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheAce)).
My problem with the original Haruhi stems from one of my ideals that states "with great power must come great humility", and slapping divine powers on a character that is anywhere below divinely benevolent is a guaranteed source of squick for me. But that's just one of my personal bugbears -.-
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMIt seems strange, using insubordinate like this.
Aw~! I was all proud, because I thought it was so clever, too. ^_^;;
Is it just a little odd, or is it really jarring? I'll let it pass if it's the former....
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PM
Does the closing single quote come before the comma after all?
Urf. This is a good question. My copy of the Chicago Manual of Style is unfortunately in storage.
And three years outdated. I should get a new one. Anyway. I will research this.
* some time passed here, while I was replying to other threads and waiting for an answer
OKAY. Official line appears to be that periods and commas go inside the quotation at all times (even single-quotes). All of which is moot! I should be using italics/underline for titles, not single-quotes!
Well, you learn something new every day. In my case, two things.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuote"I seem to have somehow spent almost my entire savings over the last year without really realizing it," Kyon mutters, crossing his arms over his chest and eying me as though somehow I lost his money.
Something bugs me about this sentence, about the structure of everything after "Kyon mutters" and how the speed of everything seems fast, but I'm at a loss for what could fix it.
I think the phrase you're looking for is: "This sentence is awkward and stilted."
I do have a habit of frequently trying to cram too much into a single sentence. Okay, I've revised it, so how's this work:
Quote"I seem to have somehow spent almost my entire savings over the last year without really realizing it," Kyon mutters. Not satisfied with giving me just his typical snark, he looks at me intently, crossing his arms over his chest as though somehow _I_ had lost his money.
Does that help?
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuoteSomehow, the space to one side of Kyon ripples and distorts, disgorging Yuki's figure. She's frozen in place, the knife in one hand suspended in a lethal stab towards his heart, as though pinned in place by his gesture.
A knife? What knife?
Yeah, based on your comments and what Sars said in response to my earlier question, this whole segment can use some expansion and clarification. Alright....
* more time passes while I revise ... man ... I'm so slow to respond ... >_<
Quote"Oh," Kyon says suddenly, his hand rising, freezing as Yuki--
Where the _hell_ did she come from!?
Somehow, the space to one side of Kyon ripples and distorts, disgorging Yuki's figure. She's frozen in place, a brutal-looking knife held in one hand, staring blankly at Kyon. The weapon is currently suspended in a lethal stab towards Kyon's heart, as though pinned in place by his gesture.
Why the hell is Yuki holding a knife? Why would she try and attack Kyon?
Mikuru shrieks in terror, charging to my side and wrapping her arms around me as she shivers nervously. At the same time ... unless I'm seeing things ... something truly amazing _is_ happening, whatever the hell it is!
How the hell did she even _appear_ like that in the _first_ place?
"No," he groans, shaking his head. "That.... Your bosses don't like this, huh?"
Hopefully this will clarify/step that out, though I'm willing to let it be a bit disjointed because Haruhi's not sure what's going on.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuoteThis draws Boring-kun's attention to me and he turns slowly around in his desk to look at me with the same expression as everyone else. As if to say, 'Was I for real?'
Did you use honorifics in the prologue and I just didn't realize it?
Except for with Mikuru and Koizumi, Haruhi usually doesn't.
But I may have forgotten.
* checks, revises
Yes; she should have. Koizumi-kun and Mikuru-chan; this will be important later; thanks for catching that. :x
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMI wonder where this could've come from. Hm...
Haruhi's a troper? >.>
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuoteIt doesn't take long to track down the girl that mentioned having a class with him last year -- a girl named Sakanaka. I capture her on the way to homeroom one day, surprising her by grabbing her shoulder and spinning her around in the hall.
I must wonder why Sakanaka and not, say, Kunikida?
Initial plan was to give Haruhi Yanagimoto as a mild antagonist (since Yanagimoto doesn't like Haruhi, according to the fanbook), and have Haruhi go after her for information because they went to East Middle together. The whole 'it's easier to talk to someone you don't like than someone you don't know' thing. But, Hal pointed out that Haruhi wouldn't adhere to that.
More importantly, Yanagimoto wouldn't know anything about Kyon anyway, and Sakanaka actually things Haruhi's kind of interesting and wants to be her friend (same source), so I reduced Yanagimoto's role to be even more mild, and have Haruhi actually be generally indifferent to it anyway.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuoteI give Yanagimoto a flat stare. Is that really what they think an investigation means? Is that the only reason a girl would ask questions about a guy?
Ah, and here, more giving!
Haruhi: "I'm a giver by nature."
Kyon: "Oh, absolutely."
Haruhi: "Hah! Even you agree?"
Kyon: "Of course! You've given me penalties, lectures, grief, endless pain--"
Haruhi: "And my _powers_?"
Kyon: "...you got me there."
Thanks for pointing that out; you're right that it's a really weak word here. I'll just find it with ctrl+f, and--
...oh. I see what the problem is. >_>;;
Geeez. Like, 12 instances of giving have been replaced with more varied alternatives. <_<;;
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMOh, I get it. I see what you're doing now. Eheh.
It's ... actually entirely by coincidence that I ended up making Yanagimoto and Sakanaka Those Two Gals, but now that you point it out, they really are a neat counterpart.
...I think I'm going to try and have to use that. Neatness.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMWho look (instead of looks).
Oops; thanks for catching that.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMQuoteThey don't even actively investigate supernatural phenomena, they only discuss it!
Please! How can you consider yourself a research society if you don't actually research?
I don't think these lines need to be separate paragraphs.
Okay, yeah. I do tend to break things out too much, so I'll go with that.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMIt's interesting how much importance Haruhi attaches to Kyon at this point. I dare say it's necessary for the story, but I do wonder if our original Haruhi was the same.
My personal interpetation of Haruhi at the start of Melancholy is that she's incredibly frustrated and lonely. She's isolated by her own choices, and too proud to admit it. When Kyon reaches out to her, well, everything in that book is Haruhi being (non-violently) tsundere about aknowledging that she cares about him.
Here, because Haruhi doesn't have the same ability to dismiss things she doesn't care about (her homework/grades are something she has to actually spend effort on), I'm playing up her frustration a bit.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMOverall, about the prologue: it felt a little bit like people were irritated and angry for no real reason. Kyon being "out of money" sounds valid enough, but he walks in seemingly miffed about it rather than being "eh, whatever" until, say, he gets needled about the issue.
I'm thinking about this. While that's valid, and I don't particularly like that it comes across that way, I'm not sure how to better lead into that without a much more substantial overhal of the start.
Hm. Yeah, the first 50 of the 150 lines there are in the prologue, pretty much.
Bleah. Every time I get steam on a new project, I get caught up in some stupid detail like this.
I've been struggling for a few days, but after how hard it was to write chapter one, I'm just ... not eager about having to rewrite the prologue, too.
I'll ... see if I can fix it over the coming weeks. Ugh.
Quote from: Muphrid on September 15, 2011, 07:38:10 PMAs far as the first chapter goes, I like that for the most part Haruhi is still Haruhi in terms of what she wants and how she thinks--that in inverting some things, you haven't gone overboard and completely changed how these people act. It's just the circumstances that are subtly different, and even then, only slightly. Once I realized what you were doing with Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I understood a little better what was being done. Would Haruhi have counterparts like this to Kyon's Taniguchi and Kunikida from the, er, original world? Maybe not, but they're effective, and because of that, I didn't find myself questioning their roles very much.
The only other thing I should say is that, while I like this so far, one can wonder what happens next without having any clear idea of what really could happen. Kyon seems basically no different despite the circumstances. The space of what could possibly change seems very open-ended--in my opinion, a bit dangerously so, but that's nothing a next installment wouldn't address anyway, so I'm not that concerned. It's interesting, and I hope Haruhi learns something, though I must admit, at this time, I have only a faint idea of what that might be.
Thanks for the feedback, Muprhid; sorry about the delay in replying.
I kind of liked the unintentional parallel between Taniguchi/Kunikida and Yanagimoto/Sakanaka. Hopefully I can gather the willpower to tackle rewrite number seven of the accursed.... Bleah.
Anyway, I'll try and fix this enough to write more of it. While Haruhi should learn something, ideally Sympathy is a two-way street, and it's not like Kyon was at his best when he started this whole thing off.
Thanks again!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 16, 2011, 01:50:31 PMQuote from: Brian on September 15, 2011, 05:23:28 PMShould I clarify this more in the story? Or maybe just leave a better note explaining where it diverges?
I think that either option would be fine. I understand it now that you explained it but the chapter is still a bit vague.
Well, not every reader will have me to explain it to them. I should fix the story so it's clearer. :p
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 16, 2011, 01:50:31 PMNot forced, maybe a bit rushed. At some point I realized that I had just dropped the ball and I had to rewind a couple of paragraphs back and redo at a slower pace. It's not even that much about the pace itself as the quite sudden change of pace when a lot of stuff happens very fast.
Alrighty; I will revise. Originally I was going to go with the note, but I have to do quite a bit more work to fix a flaw in the prologue anyway, so I'll actually write that out. It'll be a better lead-in to show why Kyon's a bit on edge from the start (and Haruhi, to a lesser degree).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on September 16, 2011, 01:50:31 PMMy problem with the original Haruhi stems from one of my ideals that states "with great power must come great humility", and slapping divine powers on a character that is anywhere below divinely benevolent is a guaranteed source of squick for me. But that's just one of my personal bugbears -.-
I think our views are pretty similar on that one. When Haruhi grows as a character, and becomes ... well, at least _nicer_, and more concerned about her friends, those are always high points in the story for me.
Okay! Thanks for the feedback; I'll try and get those revisions done shortly ... so I can get back to chapter two.
And, as always, sorry about the delay in replying. >_>;;
I've been staring at this chapter without progress for over a week.
I tacked that final scene on in about a minute and a half; I know it's weak, but the chapter as a whole has more issues, and I think I need those resolved before I can give the final scene a better close. -_-
All advice is appreciated, and please ... be brutal.
Edit: Added the attachment in the first post; forgot to point to it. >_>;;
Brutality, eh? Umm... yeah, honestly, with the character interaction as-is I guess this fic needs a heavy dose of clarity as to just what the hell is going on, much earlier on. I originally thought I was going to rant about that, but then I realized that revealing more details about the mechanism is one step up from trying to drown the problems in fan service. Since the point of the fic is character exploration, not the supernatural personality swap macguffin in and of itself, if you want to keep the mechanism by which everything is happening offscreen (and you probably have to, it's superficially Haruhi-PoV), you need to fundamentally change how these characters behave.
If I came across your fic even via the tvtropes recommendations, the way it's going so far, I'd probably make it two or three chapters in and then drop it in favor of a more rewarding read.
I won't do line-by-line because I'd say it needs work on how you handle the premise. (No, I actually like the basic premise. Yes, this is me being brutal.)
See, I get that it's Haruhi-PoV and follows her getting turned into... wait no, the later chapters are still Haruhi-PoV and it's Kyon getting turned into... okay, I don't even get that. Let's try again. The point seems to be that a Haruhi-shaped entity goes through the events of Novel One, in spite of being a Year1!Kyon-type human dishrag on the inside -- thus somewhat more balanced as a human being -- and while justifying her actions through Kyon-logic.
Going all the way back to the prologue, which is definitely Haruhi-PoV (the original Haruhi), we get a fairly nasty Haruhi blowup (fine with that), then all hell breaks loose, and Haruhi doesn't have the context to appreciate what is going on, but that's not what it feels like. It just feels like the narrator is blind in one eye. Or maybe Haruhi has been staring at her computer for so long that evening that her brain isn't working properly and she isn't fully reacting to what seems to be Yuki stabbing Kyon. I don't know, I just can't visualize what exactly is in front of Haruhi's eyes even when she's supposed to be looking right at it. That scene is also forgivable though, because it's over quickly and then we get a slightly tedious but still interesting first chapter (it snagged my interest for the same basic reasons as sars' prologue -- some careful character exploration without any distracting action or plot to get in the way).
Now moving on to this second chapter. Verdict: I think with the standards you've set for a sympathetic narrator it's going to be impossible to justify the blackmail scene, even if Mikuru does go along (her submissiveness is a divergence, correct?); I guess it's a great writing exercise to frustrate yourself with, but it makes for awful reading.
If I were writing this, I'd be tempted to diverge by letting Mikuru undress herself. (Reason why this comes to my mind: I had a vague genderflip fic idea kicking around where only one character is flipped, namely Kyon-->Kyonko. Kyonko is much more assertive about curbing some of Haruhi's excesses, not by saying "no", but by suggesting "yes, but it would be even better for everyone if...". Yes, it's a stupid idea right now, but it should give you the idea of the basic dynamic by which some of the more squicky interactions could be avoided.
It might be even better if Sympathy!Kyon also figures out some constructive way to improve on his character's flaws, making the fic much less of a waste of air.)
Again: your idea of sympathy seems to be that everything everyone does has a perfectly good reason, even as Novel 1 plays out almost exactly as before (thus far in your fic). You seem to be trying to write sympathetic characters, who completely fail to undertake sympathetic actions. And who are thus even less sympathetic than they were previously. Original Year1!Haruhi was an opaque entity who was oblivious to the existence of ordinary humans as human beings, and her actions are perfectly justified by the fact that she failed to give a damn about anyone's feelings. That was her primary flaw.
This Haruhi does all of the same horrible things, but in addition we get to listen to her whiny rationalizations ("but Kyon could've stopped me! but Mikuru doesn't resist when I molest her! etc etc").
EDIT: Kyon also has a bunch of problems, but the fact that we see Haruhi's PoV on him means you've already got a good explanation of what makes him unsympathetic, right there in the story.
Of course, the other alternative is returning to a PoV where Haruhi doesn't consider Mikuru's feelings, but that's clearly not what you're trying to do here.
This fic would be so much better if this were an avenue for Kyon and Haruhi to step into each other's shoes and realize that there were obvious things each could have done differently. Not that there were perfect inevitable reasons as to why Haruhi needed to do the blackmail scenario, which lends the whole thing a squicky Greek tragedy flavor where the Gods have decreed Oedipus to do a bunch of awful stuff and there was no way to avert it. If you're going for that effect -- that Novel 1 was inevitable and not just a product of character flaws that might not have existed -- at least make the horror intentional.
It's like... you know one of those arguments where each person refuses to admit the other was wrong? Your fic is like that, even with the swap. They're incredibly tedious to listen to. If you want that dynamic, I'd say have sympathetic-Haruhi change something significant first, then be unconsciously shocked by the idea that she might have done things wrong the first time around, and then put up some (ultimately futile) resistance to admitting even more of her faults.
Again, you say the fic is going to diverge. I'd say now (molesting Mikuru) would be a good point for it to do so.
Canon!Kyon also does things which are difficult to sympathize with e.g. physical violence in 'Sigh'. These make him more difficult to sympathize with, and create extra work for the reader.
In general, Mikuru and Yuki's behavior suggests that they know what happened, while Koizumi apparently doesn't. You even have the option of Mikuru knowing that this Haruhi is much more Kyon-like and can be pushed to accommodate Mikuru's point of view a little more, thus driving the divergence. That option would require you to figure out what Mikuru looks like when she's a shade more confident about the situation.
I would also suggest rethinking Koizumi. The guy opening his mouth and spouting something about video games was, to me, slightly confusing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the original character, and I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with the swap. Maybe the espers are the only faction that has been reset due to their link to Haruhi?? (Maybe Koizumi and Kyon are having traits swapped too, as a sort of bonus?????) I don't know.
There, since you've invited me to be brutal, I can give my slightly-exaggerated honest opinion on this. (Whereas before I was just hoping you might work it out for yourself.) This fic doesn't piss me off, so much as fails to engage my interest. I don't have very much... sympathy for the specific target you seem to be trying to hit with it, and I think you should be aiming a little more to the right. Hope that didn't hurt too much, burn salve is on the second shelf from the top :-)
You've written interesting characters, and then proceeded to make them do things that are largely *in-character* for the original Kyon and Haruhi, but vehemently *out-of-character* for the adjusted ones.
If I've completely misconstrued what you're trying to do here, that fact in and of itself should be valuable feedback as well, actually.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMBrutality, eh? Umm... yeah, honestly, with the character interaction as-is I guess this fic needs a heavy dose of clarity as to just what the hell is going on, much earlier on. I originally thought I was going to rant about that, but then I realized that revealing more details about the mechanism is one step up from trying to drown the problems in fan service. Since the point of the fic is character exploration, not the supernatural personality swap macguffin in and of itself, if you want to keep the mechanism by which everything is happening offscreen (and you probably have to, it's superficially Haruhi-PoV), you need to fundamentally change how these characters behave.
If I came across your fic even via the tvtropes recommendations, the way it's going so far, I'd probably make it two or three chapters in and then drop it in favor of a more rewarding read.
I somewhat asked for this, but am still a little saddened by this interaction:
Brian: "Please be brutal in your comments on chapter two."
Arakawa: "Your prologue sucks."
Brian: "...technically x is the best kind of x, yes."
Alright. This is on me for taking notes and not actually revising the prologue. I was really hoping to push through some writer's block on this one.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMI won't do line-by-line because I'd say it needs work on how you handle the premise. (No, I actually like the basic premise. Yes, this is me being brutal.)
Very quickly: I'm pretty sure you clearly hate the premise, actually, since your assessment of what it even is (and what I'm trying to do) is about 361 degrees off from my intent.
I'll reply in more detail later as I'm about to miss an appointment, but this is a good marker for just how badly I've failed to tell this story so far. -_-
It looks like the fundamental problem with this second chapter is that Haruhi is way too conscious of the less flattering aspects of her behavior. The canon Haruhi of the time period could be (kind of) forgiven her persistent effort to check every possible symptom of Antisocial Personality Disorder as defined by DSM-IV because she was genuinely oblivious. She didn't rationalize away any moral issues because she wasn't aware of them in the first place. This Haruhi, however, knows that she's doing something that she shouldn't, but does it anyway, which doesn't really make her more sympathetic.
I can think of two different approaches to change the situation. Either remove all second thoughts and show how she gets utterly confused and despondent when people chide her for something that she thinks is a great idea, or at least a necessary idea for the given objective; or make the story diverge faster when, instead of succeeding, Haruhi's plans consistently backfire and land her into trouble (as she doesn't have unlimited wishes to make everything work out the way she wants any more), which can also be played for sympathy if she genuinely believes that she had good intentions. I don't know what is the target of the story, but one of those two might fit.
Beyond that, there is an interesting question about the exact nature of this swap, namely, what the other SOS members know about it. If the other brigade members retained their memories there might be some unfortunate implications waiting down the road ... I think.
There were some lower priority issues as well, but I guess that we'll get a chance to return to them once you've decided how you want to proceed from here.
Edit: Back from sauna, where I had some time to think about it.
While I don't know which angle you want to use, the two approaches that I mentioned could be more or less combined by playing up the woobie aspect. If you throw in a good bit of Yasumi and make her sooo genki that her feet barely touch the ground, then you can have situations where Haruhi is only able to think how fun, fun, fun everything will be once she manages to do this and that; once her actions backfire the reader can actually share the experience that from her own point of view it's Haruhi who's getting dog-kicked (but unlike Haruhi, also understand the flip side of the coin, which would, at least in my opinion, make her more sympathetic).
I have mixed feelings about this. In general, stories that go through the formation of the brigade with the changes needed from a new premise don't tend to hold my attention. That said, I think this can work. What's important is how the character dynamics have changed for this scenario.
Look at Asahina: Haruhi already suspects her of putting on an act to, say, get Kyon's attention. That's certainly a valid expectation from the novels, but in this story, one has to wonder: would Haruhi be someone Asahina and the others approach to help monitor Kyon? Is there even a need to do that, given Kyon's attitude is one of mostly indifference and calm? That's the thing. Without Haruhi's impulsiveness to drive effects from her powers, is there a greater effort that Asahina, Koizumi, and Nagato need to exert? I'm not sure if Haruhi can really sympathize with Kyon without being closely put in his shoes in that sense. That said, Haruhi might never keep quiet about Kyon and his powers, but then, he might disbelieve her just as she did him.
Nagato is basically the same, and when Haruhi mentions Kyon to her, that's enough. Koizumi is...different. I'm not sure how Koizumi as a video game enthusiast makes him that much more interesting to Kyon, but I can see how that archetype would put Kyon at ease more than the one we know from canon. The downside is that it threatens to make Koizumi feel so different, but I guess that emphasizes his chameleonic nature.
*slaps forehead* I guess my lesson is that "brutal" doesn't need to be "heavily display assumptions made about the premise and then show how it doesn't live up to them". Still, I hope its helpful for you to know exactly what sorts of assumptions I'd formed based on reading the actual fic and... yeah, more or less completely ignoring any commentary you or the other C&Cers made previously on it.
So, inferring from the commentary posted after I wrote that rant, it seems this is in essence a Kyon~ism fic. (Putting the 'sympathy' setup aside for a second.) Haruhi is deputized by Kyon to form a Brigade, which explains how she can simultaneously be so callous while feeling like she's at the mercy of the events. If we start in Kyon~ism and work forward, then yeah, it makes more sense.
So, in that sense, Mikuru doesn't resist because it's a show put on for Kyon's benefit? See, in that case Mikuru's actions make sense, but Haruhi's... it still makes her more despicable than original!Haruhi to be aware that what she's doing is wrong and do it anyways.
I can plausibly see an actual Year1!Haruhi (minus the powers) being manipulated by the organizations to put on a show for warper!Kyon's benefit... and then finding out just how many flaws she has and how she was playing straight into the scenario. That's very clearly not the sort of thing you intend to write, though. EDIT: wait, or is it?
Now I have somewhat greater appreciation for what you seem to be trying to do. It's just that things do seem to have meandered on the way there. Again: the obvious thing to point out is that a Haruhi with the level of self-awareness she displays here, would have to act differently in order to not come across as mostly pathetic.
The only way I see her playing into the scenario while retaining my sympathy is if she eases into the role of terrorizing Mikuru gradually, as her attempts to interest Kyon (which she seems to have an impulse to do) get more and more desperate. EDIT: and I mean, even that is really wrong on some level, since it's difficult to imagine her being that desperate for Kyon's attention.
Sorry if this isn't quite the quality of feedback you were expecting :-(
Arakawa, I'm sorry; your response was very frustrating to me. There's a difference between 'brutal honesty' and 'and also be mean for kicks' -- and in my mind.... Or maybe the one goes into the other for you; I have to admit, much of your commentary felt significantly more critical than constructive, and there were quite a few places where you just said I did something bad -- and offered no suggestions. Sorry; that frustrated me. That and the amazing chasm that represents our cognitive disconnect here.... Just, wow.
The practical upshot: I now know to never use anything implying 'feel free to be harsh/critical' when asking you for advice again (or commenting anywhere you can reply).
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMNow moving on to this second chapter. Verdict: I think with the standards you've set for a sympathetic narrator it's going to be impossible to justify the blackmail scene, even if Mikuru does go along (her submissiveness is a divergence, correct?); I guess it's a great writing exercise to frustrate yourself with, but it makes for awful reading.
Not tryimg to make the event sympathetic; just the character.
And yes, Mikuri is divergent. After all, what does she care about Haruhi, a typical (if eccentric) highschooler? (This same holds true for the others, naturally.)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMIf I were writing this, I'd be tempted to diverge by letting Mikuru undress herself. (Reason why this comes to my mind: I had a vague genderflip fic idea kicking around where only one character is flipped, namely Kyon-->Kyonko. Kyonko is much more assertive about curbing some of Haruhi's excesses, not by saying "no", but by suggesting "yes, but it would be even better for everyone if...". Yes, it's a stupid idea right now, but it should give you the idea of the basic dynamic by which some of the more squicky interactions could be avoided.
Yes, see -- as I've stated elsewhere, sympathy is a two way street. At the same time the story is being told from Haruhi's PoV, not Kyon's.
Having someone step up here comes across (to me) as saying, "the world would be flat out better if Kyon were the reality warper," which may have been Kyon's initial expectation, but this story aims to deconstruct that (while also playing with Kyoniism).
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMIt might be even better if Sympathy!Kyon also figures out some constructive way to improve on his character's flaws, making the fic much less of a waste of air.)
Eh ... heh. waste of air
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMAgain: your idea of sympathy seems to be that everything everyone does has a perfectly good reason, even as Novel 1 plays out almost exactly as before (thus far in your fic). You seem to be trying to write sympathetic characters, who completely fail to undertake sympathetic actions. And who are thus even less sympathetic than they were previously. Original Year1!Haruhi was an opaque entity who was oblivious to the existence of ordinary humans as human beings, and her actions are perfectly justified by the fact that she failed to give a damn about anyone's feelings. That was her primary flaw.
So, to summarize your explanation: The major flaw of chapter two is that it's a logical progression of chapter one/the prologue.
I don't see Haruhi as being oblivious to other people's feelings -- just indifferent. Okay, nevermind.
I have a flawed idea of what sympathy is, and you're not the first person to criticize me so. Let's close this discussion. -_-
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMThis Haruhi does all of the same horrible things, but in addition we get to listen to her whiny rationalizations ("but Kyon could've stopped me! but Mikuru doesn't resist when I molest her! etc etc").
This keeps circling around to the fact that I have to do damage to the presentation of Haruhi's character (as I set it out in chapter one) to satisfy you -- effectively, though you don't come out and say it, the chapter one presentation of Haruhi that you tolerate can't be carried into chapter two. I have to rewrite the entire story to make this work.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMThis fic would be so much better if this were an avenue for Kyon and Haruhi to step into each other's shoes and realize that there were obvious things each could have done differently. Not that there were perfect inevitable reasons as to why Haruhi needed to do the blackmail scenario, which lends the whole thing a squicky Greek tragedy flavor where the Gods have decreed Oedipus to do a bunch of awful stuff and there was no way to avert it. If you're going for that effect -- that Novel 1 was inevitable and not just a product of character flaws that might not have existed -- at least make the horror intentional.
frustrated
This fic would be better if it were EXACTLY WHAT I PLANNED ON IT BEING?
Ugh. No, events need to map to--
Bah. Nevermind.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMIt's like... you know one of those arguments where each person refuses to admit the other was wrong? Your fic is like that, even with the swap. They're incredibly tedious to listen to. If you want that dynamic, I'd say have sympathetic-Haruhi change something significant first, then be unconsciously shocked by the idea that she might have done things wrong the first time around, and then put up some (ultimately futile) resistance to admitting even more of her faults.
*sigh* This really just can't fit into my original plans.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMAgain, you say the fic is going to diverge. I'd say now (molesting Mikuru) would be a good point for it to do so.
It ... HAS diverged. Just certain events would have been in keeping.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMCanon!Kyon also does things which are difficult to sympathize with e.g. physical violence in 'Sigh'. These make him more difficult to sympathize with, and create extra work for the reader.
...YMMV, Sir. I was more annoyed that Kyon didn't do anything UNTIL THAT POINT. Was he going too far? Possibly. But I don't feel he was wrong, and in no way did his desire to protect someone else make him unsympathetic to me. (In fact, everyone else I know regarded that as a moment for HARUHI to be unsympathetic, so this is ... bordering on mind-boggling, actually.) I begin to see why we're utterly failing to communicate, however.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMIn general, Mikuru and Yuki's behavior suggests that they know what happened, while Koizumi apparently doesn't. You even have the option of Mikuru knowing that this Haruhi is much more Kyon-like and can be pushed to accommodate Mikuru's point of view a little more, thus driving the divergence. That option would require you to figure out what Mikuru looks like when she's a shade more confident about the situation.
It feels like the story you're commenting on isn't the one I wrote. You know what? Here's the summary of what I planned to write:
Kyon gets Haruhi's powers.
Redo melancholy, only Haruhi doesn't have the awesome fringe benefits of having her powers, and Kyon does; try to make Haruhi sympathetic.
Introduce the esper, time traveler, and alien, but subtly introduce the idea that since Haruhi doesn't have the powers, she's really not going to be treated the same way at all.
Mikuru: Manipulative, doesn't really care about Haruhi, doesn't mind being blunt and explaining to Haruhi that the whole 'molestation' angle makes her job (manipulating Kyon, if required) easier. The subtext here is that this actually ultimately is Mikuru manipulating Haruhi to get closer to Kyon.
Koizumi: He's linked to Kyon instead of Haruhi. Instead of saying that 'Kyon is the better reality warper', explain that Kyon is more stable, but because he's also generally placid, there's a lot of danger in letting Haruhi get him too worked up about crazy stuff. Flat-out rejects Haruhi when he tells her he's an esper, and explains why.
Yuki: Pretty much exactly like in canon, except Haruhi doesn't take her to the library or actually try and befriend Nagato, once she finds out that Yuki's not going to be 'fun', and seems more interested in Kyon.
Leading to Haruhi getting frustrated, Kyon not believing her 'wild stories', but 'willing to play along for the club'.
Ryouko makes her appearance and offers to help Haruhi 'make things more interesting'. Haruhi accepts at first, provided Ryouko's changes are pretty subtle, but it never works out the way Haruhi wants -- she gives up on the plan and decides not to work with Ryouko as she keeps aiming for more disruptive things. Ryouko decides to engage her, "Then I'll just kill you," plan, only Haruhi never got close to Yuki, so Yuki doesn't come to her rescue.
Kyon's failsafe kicks in and he gets awoken to all of his memories from that point in the prologue, saves Haruhi, and then hates himself for letting everything get to that point over such a petty motivation.
They talk things out.
That's incredibly rough, but that's the gist of the idea I had when this started.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMI would also suggest rethinking Koizumi. The guy opening his mouth and spouting something about video games was, to me, slightly confusing, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the original character, and I can't for the life of me see what it has to do with the swap. Maybe the espers are the only faction that has been reset due to their link to Haruhi?? (Maybe Koizumi and Kyon are having traits swapped too, as a sort of bonus?????) I don't know.
See above, re: you thinking I was writing a totally different (and to me utterly uninteresting) fic. You're welcome to write those ideas, but I don't see most of them having anything to do with the story I was trying to tell. Sorry, your suggestions here all discard everything I have planned, and are as such unworkable.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMThere, since you've invited me to be brutal, I can give my slightly-exaggerated honest opinion on this. (Whereas before I was just hoping you might work it out for yourself.) This fic doesn't piss me off, so much as fails to engage my interest. I don't have very much... sympathy for the specific target you seem to be trying to hit with it, and I think you should be aiming a little more to the right. Hope that didn't hurt too much, burn salve is on the second shelf from the top :-)
exaggerated!=honest
I think I will write more of the story, but I'll ask you not to comment on this one any further; I wanted help to improve my story, not a very long message telling me I shouldn't write it/need to start entirely over from the ground up. If that's what it takes and others agree, well, I can abandon this project -- but I rather get the impression from everyone else that the story is more salvagable than that. You are, of course, free to write your own take on it (and likewise, I have no interest in commenting on that take).
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 01:06:32 PMYou've written interesting characters, and then proceeded to make them do things that are largely *in-character* for the original Kyon and Haruhi, but vehemently *out-of-character* for the adjusted ones.
If I've completely misconstrued what you're trying to do here, that fact in and of itself should be valuable feedback as well, actually.
I've mentioned the same.
I'm seriously debating even bothering continuing writing this one, given how upsetting it is to me that absolutely nothing of what I intended got across.
No. I think I can continue, but honestly.... I can't give your commentary any weight, because I don't feel you understand what I was trying well enough to offer an informed opinion -- beyond the fact that you don't want to read the story I'm trying to write (if I read between the lines correctly). An important lesson was learned here, for me. I'm really unhappy that it worked out this way -- and I think I'll avoid commenting on your Haruhi/Dr. Who fic because I don't trust myself to be equally unkind in return.
incredibly frustrated
I know there's been a bit of hullabaloo here. Let me comment on this:
QuoteHere's the summary of what I planned to write:
Kyon gets Haruhi's powers.
Redo melancholy, only Haruhi doesn't have the awesome fringe benefits of having her powers, and Kyon does; try to make Haruhi sympathetic.
Introduce the esper, time traveler, and alien, but subtly introduce the idea that since Haruhi doesn't have the powers, she's really not going to be treated the same way at all.
Mikuru: Manipulative, doesn't really care about Haruhi, doesn't mind being blunt and explaining to Haruhi that the whole 'molestation' angle makes her job (manipulating Kyon, if required) easier. The subtext here is that this actually ultimately is Mikuru manipulating Haruhi to get closer to Kyon.
Koizumi: He's linked to Kyon instead of Haruhi. Instead of saying that 'Kyon is the better reality warper', explain that Kyon is more stable, but because he's also generally placid, there's a lot of danger in letting Haruhi get him too worked up about crazy stuff. Flat-out rejects Haruhi when he tells her he's an esper, and explains why.
Yuki: Pretty much exactly like in canon, except Haruhi doesn't take her to the library or actually try and befriend Nagato, once she finds out that Yuki's not going to be 'fun', and seems more interested in Kyon.
Leading to Haruhi getting frustrated, Kyon not believing her 'wild stories', but 'willing to play along for the club'.
Ryouko makes her appearance and offers to help Haruhi 'make things more interesting'. Haruhi accepts at first, provided Ryouko's changes are pretty subtle, but it never works out the way Haruhi wants -- she gives up on the plan and decides not to work with Ryouko as she keeps aiming for more disruptive things. Ryouko decides to engage her, "Then I'll just kill you," plan, only Haruhi never got close to Yuki, so Yuki doesn't come to her rescue.
Kyon's failsafe kicks in and he gets awoken to all of his memories from that point in the prologue, saves Haruhi, and then hates himself for letting everything get to that point over such a petty motivation.
They talk things out.
That's incredibly rough, but that's the gist of the idea I had when this started.
I tend to be cautious about reading outlines and thus losing the perspective an average reader would have, but, I did want to comment on this.
I generally think this outline makes sense. The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point? This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has. She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different. I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too. It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi? Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late? That sort of thing, really.
I think what bugs me about this second chapter is that things seem to run together a bit. There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue. Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina. She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish. This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind. Is it just to give the brigade a cute character? Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations? I think there's tremendous potential there to paint Haruhi sympathetically, to give her an ultimately reasonable goal, even if she goes about it in an unreasonable way, and for her to be denied her real objective of emotional or intellectual satisfaction even while she outwardly seems to get what she wants. I'm not sure if that's a valid criticism versus a personal preference, though, so take it with a hefty grain of salt. Like I said, I think the basic framework of this story is reasonable.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 30, 2011, 04:28:48 PM
There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue. Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina. She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish. This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind. Is it just to give the brigade a cute character? Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations?
This would be the next concern on my list as well. I am avoiding the spoilers at this point, hoping to be able to provide an 'uninformed' view as the story progresses.
My conclusion for the moment: Brian seems to know what he's doing, I seem to have trouble understanding it, and in terms of my lack of sympathy for the fic, I should have stuck with my initial attitude of "don't barge in where I can't even find my way around the author's intent, instead wait for the finished product and see if I can understand that".
By the same principle, I understand why Brian wants to ignore my own C&C and writing at the moment; Brian, I get the sense you were turned off even earlier during our discussion on 'Anywhere in this World', for reasons which I find perfectly understandable (you were bewildered by my thought process and you were unlikely to enjoy wasting your time on a fic which might prove similarly bewildering). Is my impression of that correct?
Withdrawing from further commentary on "Sympathy", as requested. Disappointed with myself that I was unable to contribute to this process constructively :-( In general, it's unnecessary for Brian to avoid issuing calls for harsh criticism; I'll make sure not to answer invitations for being brutal in my commentary in future, from anyone, since I now know that what I'm capable of in that regard is unlikely to be helpful to the other person.
My apologies to everyone whose time was wasted by having to read / participate in / otherwise deal with my lack of tact.
Urg. Arakawa, I have to apologize; I just get incredibly frustrated when it feels like I've failed to communicate something correctly. I calmed down on the drive in to work, and my reaction was too harsh, in retrospect. Sorry; I had this same thing happen with Henry Cobb, of all people-- That was what prompted the rewrite of Later. >_<
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 05:46:03 PMBy the same principle, I understand why Brian wants to ignore my own C&C and writing at the moment; Brian, I get the sense you were turned off even earlier during our discussion on 'Anywhere in this World', for reasons which I find perfectly understandable (you were bewildered by my thought process and you were unlikely to enjoy wasting your time on a fic which might prove similarly bewildering). Is my impression of that correct?
Somewhat. I also confess to being a Kyon fanboy, so the idea of reading a fic where he not only isn't around, but probably won't be is dramatically lessened; those are both actually signifcant factors for my reluctance. Beyond that, while "Dr. Haruhi" is a likable (enough) and interesting character, she doesn't feel like she has much of anything to do with ... well ... Haruhi. Maybe you got the same feeling from her in NG+. Bitter irony.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 05:46:03 PMWithdrawing from further commentary on "Sympathy", as requested. Disappointed with myself that I was unable to contribute to this process constructively :-( In general, it's unnecessary for Brian to avoid issuing calls for harsh criticism; I'll make sure not to answer invitations for being brutal in my commentary in future, from anyone, since I now know that what I'm capable of in that regard is unlikely to be helpful to the other person.
Again, my reaction to the almost-on-target commentary intent frustrated me enough to overstate my reaction (a not unfamiliar site around here, tragically -_-). Even then, enough of it was valid that you shouldn't doubt yourself or ability; we can place this squarely on me.
Looking back, some of what you wrote can be applied to the story I'm writing, and much of it is still very valid with regards to what's gone before, especially the prologue. I think I need to fix that before I can move on, but I have a more solid picture of where that needs to be picked up.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PM*slaps forehead* I guess my lesson is that "brutal" doesn't need to be "heavily display assumptions made about the premise and then show how it doesn't live up to them". Still, I hope its helpful for you to know exactly what sorts of assumptions I'd formed based on reading the actual fic and... yeah, more or less completely ignoring any commentary you or the other C&Cers made previously on it.
And once again, I should have been clearer (and probably take an extra thirty minutes to consider my responses; just because I'm almost always connected...). You shouldn't have to read all the other commentary (though, admittedly, the ability to do so is one of the reasons for using a forum) and still have your opinions have weight. Really, the burden is on me for not revising the prologue first. >_<
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PMSo, inferring from the commentary posted after I wrote that rant, it seems this is in essence a Kyon~ism fic. (Putting the 'sympathy' setup aside for a second.) Haruhi is deputized by Kyon to form a Brigade, which explains how she can simultaneously be so callous while feeling like she's at the mercy of the events. If we start in Kyon~ism and work forward, then yeah, it makes more sense.
Mostly -- however, there's no deputizing. Haruhi is still Haruhi, even with the Kyoniism take. Hmm, debating ... yeah,
I'd better:
She just doesn't get a supernatural bonus to her 'awesome' pool anymore; my main goal is actually to show that it's a lot harder for her to be Haruhi without that bonus. Kyon gets it -- and does nothing with it (which makes him less sympathetic to the readers, since they know the situation in the prologue, which no one in the story does.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PMSo, in that sense, Mikuru doesn't resist because it's a show put on for Kyon's benefit? See, in that case Mikuru's actions make sense, but Haruhi's... it still makes her more despicable than original!Haruhi to be aware that what she's doing is wrong and do it anyways.
Yes; you were right to surmise that I was wasting my time by endlessly revising that one scene -- or really letting myself get caught up on it so badly. I should have aimed for something with a smoother narrative flow, or a better characterization take. Bashing my head against that was a source of frustration, too, and you're entirely correct to have identified it as such. >_<
I can't make that sympathetic, the way Haruhi was established in chapter one. (Fortunately, Sarsaparilla has suggested what looks like the ideal compromise at a glance; more on that later.)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PMI can plausibly see an actual Year1!Haruhi (minus the powers) being manipulated by the organizations to put on a show for warper!Kyon's benefit... and then finding out just how many flaws she has and how she was playing straight into the scenario. That's very clearly not the sort of thing you intend to write, though. EDIT: wait, or is it?
It would be touched on, somewhat.
The Agency/Organization doesn't need to work hard to keep Kyon satisfied -- in fact, quite the contrary. They only are reacting to Haruhi's presence and disruption in the first place. Remember that Broizumi's main interest is now Kyon, not Haruhi. Really, he needs to deal with Haruhi much the same way he did with Kyon (downplayed to minimize the creep factor, since Kyon's generally more mellow anyway). He would probably break the masquerade because Kyon wouldn't believe her, and then by that same token, they wouldn't really want to work with her because if she had the ability to pull the thread, she probably would.
So, hooray unintentional gender-biased squick. -_-
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PMNow I have somewhat greater appreciation for what you seem to be trying to do. It's just that things do seem to have meandered on the way there. Again: the obvious thing to point out is that a Haruhi with the level of self-awareness she displays here, would have to act differently in order to not come across as mostly pathetic.
Or horrifying; I agree with you on this entirely.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on October 30, 2011, 03:31:05 PMThe only way I see her playing into the scenario while retaining my sympathy is if she eases into the role of terrorizing Mikuru gradually, as her attempts to interest Kyon (which she seems to have an impulse to do) get more and more desperate. EDIT: and I mean, even that is really wrong on some level, since it's difficult to imagine her being that desperate for Kyon's attention.
Sorry if this isn't quite the quality of feedback you were expecting :-(
My response was lacking in quality. I think calling your comments off by about 361 degrees was accurate, if you think about it. I was far too frustrated over the single degree of misaiming, when I should have been more appreciative of the fact that you were doing exactly as I had requested. My apologies for that. -_-
Having gone through it again, I have taken a list of brief characterization notes from your commentary that I agree with, which will be useful in covering the rewrite this chapter will need.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 01:53:57 PMIt looks like the fundamental problem with this second chapter is that Haruhi is way too conscious of the less flattering aspects of her behavior. The canon Haruhi of the time period could be (kind of) forgiven her persistent effort to check every possible symptom of Antisocial Personality Disorder as defined by DSM-IV because she was genuinely oblivious. She didn't rationalize away any moral issues because she wasn't aware of them in the first place. This Haruhi, however, knows that she's doing something that she shouldn't, but does it anyway, which doesn't really make her more sympathetic.
Yes, this is true. I can only make it more sympathetic by making it the symptom of some worse dysfunction or depression on her part. I can still actually see that characterization, but I think it requires a significantly (as Arakawa says) more pathetic Haruhi than she needs to be.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 01:53:57 PMI can think of two different approaches to change the situation. Either remove all second thoughts and show how she gets utterly confused and despondent when people chide her for something that she thinks is a great idea, or at least a necessary idea for the given objective; or make the story diverge faster when, instead of succeeding, Haruhi's plans consistently backfire and land her into trouble (as she doesn't have unlimited wishes to make everything work out the way she wants any more), which can also be played for sympathy if she genuinely believes that she had good intentions. I don't know what is the target of the story, but one of those two might fit.
Actually, a little bit of both would work, too. If she's just too hurried to properly think things through, or if, maybe in her excitement....
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 01:53:57 PMBeyond that, there is an interesting question about the exact nature of this swap, namely, what the other SOS members know about it. If the other brigade members retained their memories there might be some unfortunate implications waiting down the road ... I think.
There were some lower priority issues as well, but I guess that we'll get a chance to return to them once you've decided how you want to proceed from here.
Alright -- understood.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 01:53:57 PMWhile I don't know which angle you want to use, the two approaches that I mentioned could be more or less combined by playing up the woobie aspect. If you throw in a good bit of Yasumi and make her sooo genki that her feet barely touch the ground, then you can have situations where Haruhi is only able to think how fun, fun, fun everything will be once she manages to do this and that; once her actions backfire the reader can actually share the experience that from her own point of view it's Haruhi who's getting dog-kicked (but unlike Haruhi, also understand the flip side of the coin, which would, at least in my opinion, make her more sympathetic).
...exactly. That's brilliant -- her enthusiasm makes a good veil here. I think that makes the ideal lead-in, followed by her disappointment and confusion when it didn't play out. I don't want to diverge until I get past ... well, the next chapter. This is something that I'm not terribly good at portraying, but I believe much more workable than what I was trying. An interesting challenge.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 30, 2011, 02:50:34 PMI have mixed feelings about this. In general, stories that go through the formation of the brigade with the changes needed from a new premise don't tend to hold my attention. That said, I think this can work. What's important is how the character dynamics have changed for this scenario.
Look at Asahina: ...
Nagato is basically the same, and when Haruhi mentions Kyon to her, that's enough. Koizumi is...different. I'm not sure how Koizumi as a video game enthusiast makes him that much more interesting to Kyon, but I can see how that archetype would put Kyon at ease more than the one we know from canon. The downside is that it threatens to make Koizumi feel so different, but I guess that emphasizes his chameleonic nature.
They're all different, it's just degrees of obviousness at this point; they're introduced in this chapter, but it's still exploration of Haruhi's PoV and some (limited) insight into Kyon. Actually. I should play that up at bit more in the rewrite; there's very much a void in insight into him.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 30, 2011, 04:28:48 PMI know there's been a bit of hullabaloo here. Let me comment on this:
[stuff]
I tend to be cautious about reading outlines and thus losing the perspective an average reader would have, but, I did want to comment on this.
I generally think this outline makes sense. The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point? This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has. She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different. I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too. It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi? Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late? That sort of thing, really.
To that (very spoilery):
The masquerade will be broken by Mikuru, who is openly planning to manipulate Kyon (actually manipulating Haruhi to gravitate to Kyon by overplaying her moe weaknesses, to the point that Haruhi's leery of exploiting Mikuru because of the sympathy it generates for her). In a contrast to Kyon telling Haruhi all of the reveals at the end over coffee, they're shorter scenes where she tells him (on consecutive days, naturally) about the latest reveal, which is a good deal of why she's frustrated by Kyon's indifference by the time Yuki rolls around.
Quote from: Muphrid on October 30, 2011, 04:28:48 PMI think what bugs me about this second chapter is that things seem to run together a bit. There feels like a lack of narrative connective tissue. Take, for example, the scene where Haruhi fetches Asahina. She takes Asahina, and it's not even immediately clear why she does or what she hopes to accomplish. This is an opportunity for insight into Haruhi's mind. Is it just to give the brigade a cute character? Does she hope to have a subtle effect on Kyon which works far beyond her own expectations? I think there's tremendous potential there to paint Haruhi sympathetically, to give her an ultimately reasonable goal, even if she goes about it in an unreasonable way, and for her to be denied her real objective of emotional or intellectual satisfaction even while she outwardly seems to get what she wants. I'm not sure if that's a valid criticism versus a personal preference, though, so take it with a hefty grain of salt. Like I said, I think the basic framework of this story is reasonable.
(and)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 30, 2011, 04:35:52 PMThis would be the next concern on my list as well. I am avoiding the spoilers at this point, hoping to be able to provide an 'uninformed' view as the story progresses.
Yeah, I.... Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy. I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom. I guess I can go with that ... or, more likely, all considered, this Mikuru actually putting herself somewhere Haruhi would be more likely to find her. That would probably work; Haruhi's first thought is for headcount, the excitement of mascot abilities kick in later, after she's already hauling Mikuru off.
Also lets me evade the 'if Haruhi was 'special' to find Mikuru, how does a 'normal' Haruhi grab her just as easily' question a bit.
Gratified to hear you think the story's worth telling, Muphrid; I may have to work at it quite a bit to get to that point, though.... >_<
Alright -- thanks for the commentary! Unfortunately, I have no idea when I'll have a new draft of this chapter up. :x
Quote from: Brian on October 30, 2011, 05:51:52 PM
Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy. I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom.
In canon, the given, overt reason for Haruhi's abduction of Mikuru was that Haruhi was a particular kind of genre-savvy, and had very specific ideas about the required members for a 'mysterious' club. When it comes to covert reasons ... I've always wondered how conscious Haruhi is of her own motives, but I wouldn't preclude the idea that -- at least on some level -- Haruhi was doing what she thought Kyon would want her to do, as in, she was afraid of Kyon not finding the new club interesting enough to stay as a member, so she did things that she believed would make Kyon more inclined to stay. Some times when Haruhi harasses Mikuru she's very obviously telling Kyon "You'd like to do this yourself, wouldn't you?" and in
Charmed at First Sight Lover she actually says it out loud.
Hmm, that's an interesting observation.
I'd never considered that Haruhi might actually think Kyon wants her to behave that way-- I thought she was just being ... kinda mean and maybe jealous over the attention Kyon gave her -- really, at least on some level rubbing his nose in the fact that he couldn't/wouldn't get away with it himself (and at the same time maybe hint to him that if he were a little braver he might get away with it with Haruhi). Actually, just 'interesting' is an understatement on this one. o_o
I can't honestly say I can't see elements of both being potentially valid, but I like your interpretation a bit more.... That ties in quite well to Haruhi getting excited about it, but I think the approach of Mikuru putting herself in Haruhi's path will also work. I think I can actually use all of that without it being too busy, and those differences let it stand out from being yet-more-rehash as well.
Excellent; thanks again for the commentary.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on October 31, 2011, 02:30:58 AM
Quote from: Brian on October 30, 2011, 05:51:52 PM
Honestly have a hell of a time trying to fathom Haruhi's motives without it turning incredibly creepy. I really didn't much understand her motivation in canon, beyond thinking Mikuru looked weak willed enough to be bullied into attending, and the fact that she was pretty was just a bonus for Haruhi that she didn't really think about until after she'd already hauled her into the clubroom.
In canon, the given, overt reason for Haruhi's abduction of Mikuru was that Haruhi was a particular kind of genre-savvy, and had very specific ideas about the required members for a 'mysterious' club. When it comes to covert reasons ... I've always wondered how conscious Haruhi is of her own motives, but I wouldn't preclude the idea that -- at least on some level -- Haruhi was doing what she thought Kyon would want her to do, as in, she was afraid of Kyon not finding the new club interesting enough to stay as a member, so she did things that she believed would make Kyon more inclined to stay. Some times when Haruhi harasses Mikuru she's very obviously telling Kyon "You'd like to do this yourself, wouldn't you?" and in Charmed at First Sight Lover she actually says it out loud.
I thought Haruhi might have had a bit of a girl crush, and since Mikuru doesn't exactly fight back took it to mean she liked it.
urg
Well, that's another possibility, one reinforced quite a bit Haruhi's commentary in Sigh. But that's a disrespectful, covetous sort of crush; more of a 'I like her, so no one else can have her' thing. I ... actually can't think of much of a positive spin to that one.
Blargh, behind the curve this time. Been lazy about doing C&C lately, maybe this will get me back into shape.
On the recent commentary about Mikuru: While the thought that Haruhi is hunting for hooks (beyond herself) to try to keep Kyon in the club might be interesting, trying to turn this into a sympathetic moment may actually do more harm than good. No one is perfectly sympathetic all the time, and the events around Mikuru's press-ganging are some of Haruhi's worst around that time. Spinning it so that she catches on just how badly she's crossed lines is about the most I'd try here; to me, anything more and you risk overdoing it and turning Haruhi into a caricature, where everything she does -is- actually justified. No one is sympathetic all the time, and you're already setting Mikuru up to be a pitfall for her, so making a terrible miscalculation with her to begin with is actually decent setup on its own.
And for Haruhi acting vicariously for Kyon in doing things with/to Mikuru that he'd like to? Canonically I don't think she gives enough consideration to other people's desires or feelings for that (especially this early in the game), and That Way Lies Squick in any kind of Kyoniism setup, such as we have here.
To be honest, I think Haruhi's motives here probably -are- rather creepy to some extent; Panda's hit on a major aspect of it. She states flat-out that she's interested in the unusual whether male or female, which is usually played into her being open to the idea of other girls at least, and given Mikuru's appearance and nature it's likely that she did something to attract that interest even more - probably when Haruhi was reviewing clubs and she visited the calligraphy club. Showing this might require revising the first chapter, though, to give Mikuru a minor intro for the event that caught Haruhi's interest.
The other half of the motive for grabbing Mikuru probably lies in Sigh, which I can understand trying to avoid or downplay as much as possible - seeing Mikuru as a living doll for her to play dress-up with. I understand that with the attempt to give Haruhi a sympathetic portrayal here you can't really get into that, but I suspect that it's a large part of the reason for getting Mikuru in the club in canon - one that twists when Kyon starts showing too much interest in Mikuru.
As far as the Brigade members having less interest in Haruhi-as-normal than they did in Kyon, the difference here I think is that they'd need her in on the masquerade to try to rein her in. Kyon in either incarnation is pretty inert by himself; Haruhi is going to be the motive force behind things happening, no matter what - whether she's causing things to happen herself or inciting reactions from Kyon that cause things to happen. The Brigade itself would never have formed if not for her, regardless of who the reality warper is; Kyon just doesn't have the motivation to set things up himself, nor does he get the exposure to the others that Haruhi gets in order to get the right people into it.
Showing Haruhi directly that the paranormal really does exist and is right there next to her might be a way of taking her manic edge off, so she's not as likely to do the really wild and crazy stuff that would set Kyon off - and it'd be easy enough to presume that warper!Kyon is just as likely to blow off Haruhi's claims as warper!Haruhi did with canon!Kyon. Once that's done, I could actually see the others (definitely Koizumi, and possibly Yuki) actually trying to engineer weird events to keep Haruhi's attention away from Kyon as much as possible, complicated when Kyon starts distracting her out of them directly.
Anyway, on to the direct C&C!
Quotelike she were listening to something I couldn't hear
were -> was. Unless Haruhi found more than one of her.
QuoteI didn't have to use any chlorophorm
chlorophorm -> chloroform
QuoteI want to use Mikuru-chan's charms to draw in more interesting people. I'll need to be careful to avoid the wrong crowd paying too much attention, but I figure I can use the guy who sits behind me as the barometer for that. When he gets too interested, it's too far, right?
Something about that...
It feels right that I should keep him from getting too interested in her -- or Yuki. I'm ... not sure why I think that, though. I guess it's because he's so boring and average, if I'm careless, he'll sink into the same boring relationships as everyone else?
This... is probably a bit too direct. I'd think she'd be less concerned about Kyon being in a boring relationship; it's showing that she cares about him too much, really, if she's worried about him getting pulled into something 'less than worthy'. She'd likely justify it as something to inconvenience her, although some mental fumbling for the justification would show that that's certainly not all there is to it, and that she may be taking consideration for things outside herself.
Having her start to show her character growth this early is definitely a way to make her more sympathetic, but she's still coming out of a phase of her life where she basically didn't care a bit what other people thought - her own opinion was the only one that mattered. Snapping her out of that is good, but it's not going to happen fast, and she'll try to revert back to it given the chance.
(Sorry, I'm commenting as I read, so sometimes I miss things when I break in the middle of a scene.) I do see that you address some of this directly after that point, but I think a part of it's still there - she's focusing on people outside herself too much. I can still see her showing that concern as an afterthought ('yeah, it'll be good for them too') but I suspect she'd still fall into the pattern of putting her own desires and concerns first.
Quotethat won't work if I don't know that the latest and greatest is
that -> what
QuoteAnyway.... I'd like to try and reassure Mikuru-chan, too, but that's impossible without making myself look less confident as a leader -- and that's unacceptable.
This may be getting into 'too sympathetic' territory again. If she's already suspecting something's fishy about Mikuru, I'm not so sure she'd leap that quickly to wanting to reassure her - and after Kyon's 'rescue' I'm not sure she'd jump to that conclusion at all, if she's irritated at him for it. I understand that you don't want to leap too quickly to Haruhi being jealous, since if she is she avoids the bunny suits, but she could start in on that here and use the bunny suits as a 'final test' of sorts, to see what Mikuru and Kyon do with it.
Quotethe way she sounds so distraight
distraight -> distraught. Could also use 'distrait' if you want to be archaic. =P
QuoteI know I've pushed the limits in things before
in things -> on things
QuoteDamnit
Probably want either 'damn it' or 'dammit'. Don't usually see this run together with both words spelled correctly.
Quotewithout my oponents
oponents -> opponents
---
Overall, I think the biggest issue is the one I've hit a couple of times - trying to make Haruhi a little too sensitive to others around her when that's really not who she'd be at this point. She's still starting off as someone remarkably self-centered, although the fact that she's no longer the Ace (and that role has been filled by someone else close to her) is going to get rid of the armor she had canonically that let her stay that way for a long time - but that said, her consideration at this point will still be for herself first and other people second.
She can still be selfish and sympathetic, I think; the essence is that she's basically given up on other people since she's been disappointed so many times, and Kyon is just starting to break through that and give her a bit of hope in 'normal' humans again. It's only a start, though, and she's still going to tend to fall back on old patterns without a good reason otherwise - and I suspect Mikuru will cause that to come out in spades, since (at least on the surface) she seems to embody all the worst aspects of normal humans to Haruhi. She's weak-willed, she plays into all the stereotypical damsel-in-distress tropes, and she seems to have absolutely nothing other than her looks to make her stand out from the crowd. The most positive spin I can honestly see Haruhi giving her is attempting to mold her into something more interesting than what she is now, since she's so generally featureless personality-wise (whee moeblob), but I suspect this will again be an afterthought - Haruhi's first reaction is going to be irritation.
Thanks for the comments, Hal -- (for the benefit of everyone else, we discussed it in IRC :p).
I agree with what you said, though most of it echos what's been mentioned before. I think I have a clear idea of where I want to go with this one, now. As with what the others have offered, this is very helpful; I feel a bit bad that I think I've generated more commentary than content. >_<
...will try and get my systems back online to where I can write again this week. :x
Quote from: Muphrid on October 30, 2011, 04:28:48 PMI generally think this outline makes sense. The divergences are reasonable on the whole, but what I perceive is that Haruhi being Haruhi means that Koizumi, Asahina, and Nagato have no interest in working with her--why should they even reveal themselves at all at that point? This means that Haruhi doesn't experience the same sort of issues Kyon has. She isn't in on a masquerade so much as an outside observer to it, and hence I do feel that this gives her less insight into what Kyon has experienced so much as the sense that things aren't better this way, just different. I have trouble with Nagato hanging Haruhi out to dry, too. It emphasizes how Haruhi has made no bond with her, but knowing that Haruhi is important to Kyon and that Asakura is going beyond her boundaries, would she really just abandon Haruhi? Or is it more likely that she wouldn't watch Haruhi as closely as she did Kyon in canon and is just a half-second late? That sort of thing, really.
Missed this:
Yeah, was going to go with the 'seconds too late' bit there. I don't want it to be 'Nagato doesn't care' as much as 'If she had cared a little more...'. I'll have to handle that one carefully, of course. -_-
Then I think ultimately this is going to work out. The story may just need a bit more time to percolate. The second chapter right now reminds me a lot of when I struggle at writing, too, honestly. When motivations and thought processes are jumbled together in your mind in a soup that stubbornly refuses to clear, it's so much easier just to get the actions you see happening on the page because it's something and it might make things fall into place?
Well, that's kind of what I thought, anyway, when you said you'd had some trouble with this.
So, knowing myself (being a completionist) I really shouldn't have started this but since I'm here....
Really not sure what to say about this. I think the characters are just dissonant from my mental image of them, which until the story works itself out won't go away.
Kyon used to humor Haruhi from a position of weakness and a little interest/affection; here he's humoring her (and that's it) from a position of strength.
Mikuru more timid around Haruhi, but she didn't have a huge personality change around Kyon; here she's actively manipulative.
Yuki's about the same, as is Koizumi who in this case is a yes-man to Kyon. What's interesting about that is potentially it'll grate less on Kyon, giving them a better relationship and more possibilities to do some Kyon/Koizumi shipping.
The most noticeable difference in Haruhi is her lack of complete confidence. She still has a lot, but it's not the force of nature it was before.
Waiting on more plot before commenting on that.
And... that's about it for my thoughts. Got nuttin' else.
Quote from: JonBob on December 02, 2011, 05:44:59 PMKyon used to humor Haruhi from a position of weakness and a little interest/affection; here he's humoring her (and that's it) from a position of strength.
I dislike this aspect; this is entirely unintentional-- Neither Haruhi nor Kyon have any conception of the relative 'weakness' or 'strength' of their positions in the story this far. Kyon's the Ace, but that doesn't have any bearing on how he relates to Haruhi (yet). Likewise, Haruhi's still actually gifted enough to match Kyon if she puts effort into it; the main difference is she has to work at it, and it's not 'fun'.
Quote from: JonBob on December 02, 2011, 05:44:59 PMThe most noticeable difference in Haruhi is her lack of complete confidence. She still has a lot, but it's not the force of nature it was before.
While I agree that Haruhi projects confidence, I'm not sure I agree that she actually
feels it (in canon). If so, then she becomes very difficult for me to sympathize with; someone who never experiences doubt, uncertainty, or faces (genuine) challenges is on a fast-track to Boring Invincible Hero territory. (Made worse by a decidedly non-heroic demeanor.) This fic is generally meant to be an expansion of my image of how Haruhi is in canon. Naturally, not everyone will agree....
My concept of Haruhi's character is that she has vulnerabilities and does have doubts and concerns-- She just ignores them whenever possible, because of her pride and-- And this is something for the character study thread. I'll try and add to that later today.
Ah, sorry. :x
Anyway. I think you skipped the discussion where I planned to revise chapter two from how it's presented, didn't you? >_>;;
Yeah, that's.... I'll go ahead and pull it down since it's not the 'actual' chapter. My bad.
Quote from: JonBob on December 02, 2011, 05:44:59 PMWaiting on more plot before commenting on that.
At this point, you may be waiting for quite a while. >_<
Thank you for the comments regardless. :)
Aside: Broizumi is in NO WAY leading to a Kyon/Koizumi ship, and if anyone even seriously thinks it's heading that way, I'll be outside in the hall throwing up about ... something else. D:
I suppose I say Kyon is in a position of strength because of, among other things, his physical strength. He can't be physically bullied around any more. In addition, he's demonstrated his academic strengths, and apparently has stronger social connections as well (or a higher social standing). Ultimately, I'd say he has the strength here because if he wanted to, he could easily back out.
As for Haruhi's confidence, well, luckily, Haruhi does develop as a character away from complete (outward) confidence. I suppose I expected her to start at the same place, even if she developed away from it.
On skipping discussions.... yeah.... there's a lot of it.... and I don't always read everything.... ........ ....... Waiting on Chapter 2v2!
I always get annoyed at myself when I'm daunted by the seeming scope of required revisions.
And then don't need to touch it nearly as much as I was expecting. -_-
This has been languishing too long; here's a revised chapter two. Ah ... surprisingly little has changed, outside of the scenes with Mikuru-- Haruhi's PoV is now more excited/oblivious. Hopefully this works a bit better.
I think that you've managed to find the exactly proper balance of social obliviousness and genki for Haruhi's actions here; I find the entire portrayal agreeable and actually feel sympathy for her efforts, no matter how misguided, when seen from this perspective.
Excellent-- That's exactly what I was hoping for. Thank you for the feedback, Saraparilla; now, on to chapter three....
Okay, the revisions to chapter two seem to have addressed the issues people had brought up (though, I suppose for me it was a relatively small writing gaffe). Moving forward, a wild chapter three has appeared!
Quote"Wait, you had both keys?" I ask.
I'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?
QuoteIt's ... a bit loose around the chest for me -- the hips are a bit loose, too. Then again, it's also roomier around my stomach than I need-- Probably Mikuru-chan will look better in this. But that's alright; this should be fun anyway!
Do you like how "probably" is placed in that sentence? It feels like it should go between "will" and "look" but maybe that's just a personal thing.
QuoteAfter that we step into the elevator -- straight to the top! Yuki's family must be really well off -- but when she lets me into her apartment, I'm kind of taken aback. Why doesn't she have furniture? There's a kotatsu, but the girl doesn't even have as much as a bookshelf, otherwise?
Should this really end with a question mark?
QuoteI don't run, just stalking angrily back to my house. I can't figure out what Yuki really meant-- The only thing I can come up with, though, ?is that it's some prank. I'll give Kyon points over her -- he can be kind of boring, but at least he doesn't pull crap like that!
Misplaced question mark here.
This is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being. Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak. Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too? I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity. It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know. I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something. I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.
Something I noticed:
QuoteAt least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if those powers were real, what would I do with them?
This reads
possibly like the reasoning jumped the gun from Kyon having powers to Haruhi having powers. I can't tell whether you mean something like
"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if I had powers like that, what would I do with them?"
or something more like
"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if his powers were real, how would I deal with that?"
QuoteCrap-- I barely have time to get there! Kitaguchi station? She could have just asked me!
I can see how this was hard to write. Still, Haruhi in this one is just a major jerkass, definitely not a monster. Maybe somehow drawing the reader's attention to the fact that, using a bookmark as an invitation means that Yuki is being a bit of of a jerk (by human standards) as well, might make Haruhi's behaviour feel a bit less harsh.
(This
is probably how Haruhi might feel about Yuki's behaviour.)
Back in
Melancholy Kyon just let the issue go without comment, because he's that kind of guy.
Wait, it occurs to me now,
Quote
Oh, I wish she were telling the truth, not just being bitchy about this entire thing-- So, she's pissed off about me getting the second key, or something? Well, if this is her answer, whatever.
The connection between getting the second key and getting the invitation is a bit tenuous. Given that Yuki gave Haruhi the book
with the key, and she would have prepared the bookmark in advance of the topic even being brought up. It would be more logical of Haruhi to suspect Yuki of being 'bitchy' and passive-aggressive about having her room taken, just in general.
So either Haruhi is being oblivious, or (not enough in the chapter to conclude this convolution, but whattheheck) she thinks Yuki was going to invite her for some other reason but then got angry (about the room, about the key, about Haruhi not showing up the first time) and decided to play her for a fool?
I don't know, I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMI'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?
No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already. Not sure how to make this clearer.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMDo you like how "probably" is placed in that sentence? It feels like it should go between "will" and "look" but maybe that's just a personal thing.
Yeah; stylism pretty much.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMQuoteAfter that we step into the elevator -- straight to the top! Yuki's family must be really well off -- but when she lets me into her apartment, I'm kind of taken aback. Why doesn't she have furniture? There's a kotatsu, but the girl doesn't even have as much as a bookshelf, otherwise?
Should this really end with a question mark?
Yes; this is expressing doubt. I thought it was clear from context; evidently it requires reworking?
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMMisplaced question mark here.
Oops! Not sure how that happened.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMThis is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being. Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak. Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too? I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity. It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know. I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something. I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.
Well, I'm not personally sure how Kyon making mistakes would make _Haruhi_ sympathetic. I also realize that from a reader perspective Haruhi is making mistakes -- but Haruhi doesn't have your knowledge of the series. Kyon making mistakes would be fine, but ... this is Kyon. He'd need to _do_ things to make mistakes, and if he were active, I don't think he'd be Kyon.
That's kind of a difficult route for me to go and feel true to the characters (for me). I'm not sure I can have Kyon be active without throwing everything wildly off course.
So-- Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic? I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this. I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices-- But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.
Is it that far off? I have, I guess, a pretty poor grasp of her character from her own perspective. :/
Given that this is only the first club member to offer a revelation, does it need to be addressed here, or is there room in future chapters?
Out of curiosity, what's stopping Nagato from actually showing Haruhi proof? If I remember correctly, Kyon never even bothered to ask.
Honestly I'd just chalk it up to "Narrative Causality" as an answer, but was just wondering if you had something else in mind, or a place to go with it.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 20, 2012, 11:35:31 PMThis reads possibly like the reasoning jumped the gun from Kyon having powers to Haruhi having powers. I can't tell whether you mean something like
"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if I had powers like that, what would I do with them?"
or something more like
"At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if his powers were real, how would I deal with that?"
Nothing like that-- It was meant to be a joke at the original series-- Haruhi basically saying, "I can't even imagine what that'd be like," even though....
Yeah, it's somewhat meta, but mostly I guess there's really just not enough room in the framework of this story to crack that kind of joke. I'll cut it. (Also, I see it was just poorly done anyway. Oh well.)
Quote from: revisionNot the garbage about being an alien -- that's just stupid. But the part about Kyon having powers that let him reshape the world around him. At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? And ... if those powers were real, sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?
Probably it's pointless to dream about things like that, but it makes for a good distraction.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 20, 2012, 11:35:31 PMI can see how this was hard to write. Still, Haruhi in this one is just a major jerkass, definitely not a monster. Maybe somehow drawing the reader's attention to the fact that, using a bookmark as an invitation means that Yuki is being a bit of of a jerk (by human standards) as well, might make Haruhi's behaviour feel a bit less harsh.
(This is probably how Haruhi might feel about Yuki's behaviour.)
Back in Melancholy Kyon just let the issue go without comment, because he's that kind of guy.
Well-- Remember even Kyon didn't buy Yuki's explanation. There we have the bias of 'hormonal male teen is invited into somewhat cute girl's apartment alone.' Still ... if that doesn't occur to a reader normally.... I guess Haruhi can wonder what Kyon's reaction might be to being invited over, or how a stereotypical 'guy' would react.
I'm not sure if that feels true to her character -- that she'd think about that instead of assuming it's something else and wondering what, specifically.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 20, 2012, 11:35:31 PMWait, it occurs to me now,
QuoteOh, I wish she were telling the truth, not just being bitchy about this entire thing-- So, she's pissed off about me getting the second key, or something? Well, if this is her answer, whatever.
The connection between getting the second key and getting the invitation is a bit tenuous. Given that Yuki gave Haruhi the book with the key, and she would have prepared the bookmark in advance of the topic even being brought up. It would be more logical of Haruhi to suspect Yuki of being 'bitchy' and passive-aggressive about having her room taken, just in general.
So either Haruhi is being oblivious, or (not enough in the chapter to conclude this convolution, but whattheheck) she thinks Yuki was going to invite her for some other reason but then got angry (about the room, about the key, about Haruhi not showing up the first time) and decided to play her for a fool?
I don't know, I'd be curious to hear the reasoning behind this.
Eh, just an oversight on my part; Haruhi shouldn't have made that mental slip. The suggestion for it being the room works; Haruhi could then reason Yuki gave up the key to encourage Haruhi to read the book (and find the marker) sooner.
I'll get those revisions in tomorrow; I suspect Sarsaparilla might point out some additional errors on my part. :x
Still, this feels a bit less 'off' than last chapter so far, so there's that, at least. :)
Thanks for the feedback, guys!
Quote from: Oroboro on January 21, 2012, 05:05:13 AMOut of curiosity, what's stopping Nagato from actually showing Haruhi proof? If I remember correctly, Kyon never even bothered to ask.
Honestly I'd just chalk it up to "Narrative Causality" as an answer, but was just wondering if you had something else in mind, or a place to go with it.
Presumably, Nagato doesn't have permission because a demonstration is too much of an influence on her (and therefore Kyon). Absolutely, it would change Haruhi's behavior.
Actually, I find Haruhi's behavior here completely in line with what has been told before (on top of canon), and there isn't anything that sticks out so much that I'd feel a need to comment. If you think that it could help, you could underline Haruhi's reasons for rejecting Yuki's story a bit more than it is now (basically, incredulity at supernatural being so 'easy' to find, and annoyance at it being that guy, as it directly challenges her basic assumptions).
When Haruhi takes photos of Asahina, apparently Kyon and Koizumi are present but don't react in any way? This was left unclear and I expected to see at least some reaction.
You mention Kitaguchi station, but the station closest to Yuki's residence and the riverside meeting place is Kurakuenguchi (between Kouyouen and Shukugawa); according to map Kitaguchi is on a different line to the east of Shukugawa. Or do the novels say otherwise, I don't remember?
Quote from: Brian on January 21, 2012, 05:06:08 AM
Yeah, it's somewhat meta, but mostly I guess there's really just not enough room in the framework of this story to crack that kind of joke. I'll cut it. (Also, I see it was just poorly done anyway. Oh well.)
Bit goofy, but it might work to have something in the ballpark of:
Quote
Not the garbage about being an alien -- that's just stupid. But the part about Kyon having powers that let him reshape the world around him. At least, if I understood what she was talking about. I can't help but wonder ... what if that were true? Well, for starters, it would neatly explain why the world is just so ordinary! If I was the one with powers like that, I'd certainly... well, I'd...
Well, I'd think of something!
Still, if Kyon really did have powers, and I did tell him about them... what sorts of adventures and fun could we have, then?
Probably it's pointless to dream about things like that, but it makes for a good distraction.
Meh, YMMV. (You certainly need to make some tradeoffs to shoehorn this joke into the story, you're right about that.)
That aside, you missed a 'what' in your revision:
Quote from: revisionAnd ... if those powers were real, sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?
Quote from: revised revisionAnd ... if those powers were real, what sorts of adventures and fun could we have with them?
Quote from: Brian on January 21, 2012, 05:06:08 AM
No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already. Not sure how to make this clearer.
Maybe just explain it in the narration? Something like:
Quote
"Wait, you had both keys?" I ask.
I mean, it's not like she's going to hand over her key just like that if that leaves her without a spare on hand...
"I will retrieve the second key tomorrow morning."
... or maybe she is. {insert suitable year1!Haruhi snark}
I'm not sure how well the "begin... punchline ... double take" thing fits with the style. But you get the basic idea of how it might be clarified.
Quote from: Brian on January 21, 2012, 04:53:02 AM
Quote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMI'm puzzled; Haruhi's asking for a key, then she seems puzzled that Nagato actually has it?
No, she thinks Nagato wouldn't give up a key unless she had both already. Not sure how to make this clearer.
I'm just confused as to what Haruhi's thinking. If she thinks Nagato has both keys, why is she surprised upon receiving one? If she doesn't think Nagato has it, then why is she asking for it? One of those questions applies. Is the answer in the text and I just missed it?
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on January 20, 2012, 10:52:43 PMThis is a bit tough to read, too, just out of knowing how hard-headed Haruhi is being. Haruhi is making plenty of mistakes, so to speak. Maybe it would make it easier to sympathize with her if we saw Kyon making mistakes, too? I don't know what circumstances he'd face that would even give him the opportunity. It could be that from the beginning, Haruhi has more to learn than Kyon---or else telling this story only from her perspective wouldn't be as necessary---but...I don't know. I want to feel like Haruhi's on the road toward a tragic mistake that will teach her something. I'm just not sure I have enough "sympathy" for her yet.
Well, I'm not personally sure how Kyon making mistakes would make _Haruhi_ sympathetic. I also realize that from a reader perspective Haruhi is making mistakes -- but Haruhi doesn't have your knowledge of the series. Kyon making mistakes would be fine, but ... this is Kyon. He'd need to _do_ things to make mistakes, and if he were active, I don't think he'd be Kyon.
That's kind of a difficult route for me to go and feel true to the characters (for me). I'm not sure I can have Kyon be active without throwing everything wildly off course.
So-- Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic? I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this. I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices-- But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.
Is it that far off? I have, I guess, a pretty poor grasp of her character from her own perspective. :/
Given that this is only the first club member to offer a revelation, does it need to be addressed here, or is there room in future chapters?
I felt like Haruhi's behavior and narration were in line with her character. Maybe I just read the story wrong--in 00, Haruhi thinks Kyon should see things from her perspective, and Kyon seems to respond that she should see things from his as well. I guess from that I thought this was an experience both characters would go through and learn something from, and so showing Kyon making mistakes like Haruhi is...maybe it wouldn't make her more sympathetic, but it would feel more balanced? But if this piece is really only about Haruhi, then yeah, that wouldn't be appropriate. What's there is true to Haruhi, and I guess there's time later for a hope spot or so. It doesn't need to be now.
Quote
You mention Kitaguchi station, but the station closest to Yuki's residence and the riverside meeting place is Kurakuenguchi (between Kouyouen and Shukugawa); according to map Kitaguchi is on a different line to the east of Shukugawa. Or do the novels say otherwise, I don't remember?
In the novel, Nagato asks Kyon to meet her at Kouyouen Station.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 21, 2012, 02:12:27 PM
I'm just confused as to what Haruhi's thinking. If she thinks Nagato has both keys, why is she surprised upon receiving one? If she doesn't think Nagato has it, then why is she asking for it? One of those questions applies. Is the answer in the text and I just missed it?
I think Haruhi was expecting Yuki to take her down to (whatever place in the school they keep the spare keys for the clubrooms), and was surprised to see Yuki just pull one out of her pocket and give it to her.
Yuki then explains that Haruhi can have this key now, while Yuki will go get the second key (for herself) in the morning.
Okay. I guess I got a little lost trying to figure out where that second key could be during the conversation. The idea that it could be somewhere else--in storage or wherever Nagato will retrieve it from--didn't occur to me. And then missing that line didn't help matters.
Okay-- I'll try to make the key thing clearer, on the key think. Looking back, I think I get something of what you were trying to say Muphrid; Kyon has the risk of coming across as infallible because he's being passive.
That ties pretty directly to Sarsaparilla's point about him not really even having much of a reaction. That's an area that needs work. So, need to find the balance of that and not making Haruhi look worse.
Alright. Thanks for the clarification on the station, too; presumably the novel locations don't perfectly match the location reference shots from the anime. I'll go with Muphrid's correction for that one.
Thanks again for the feedback. :)
QuoteSo-- Is the character of Haruhi too unsympathetic? I can't really figure out a whole lot I can do to address this. I can tone down her bitterness at Yuki's percieved 'prank', and maybe soften her language choices-- But I'm not sure I feel that's true to her character; I had a good sense when I started that this felt about right.
Perhaps working in the fact that she's so actively searching for strange beings would be relevant. At this point it's not implausible for Haruhi to think that Yuki has heard about her reputation through the grapevine somehow, and is perhaps being passive-aggressively snide to Haruhi as a way to throw her off balance.
It might not make her more sympathetic, but it makes her general anger seem more well placed. Perhaps other people have tried to pull pranks of this sort on her in the past (although of course that's neither here nor there in canon) and she could be sick of it, especially after coming to a new school.
Hmm, I initially interpreted the title as Haruhi needing to have sympathy for Kyon and his situation, not necessarily that we would be sympathetic to Haruhi. So, if the gist is the latter, I'll need to re-read over the chapters to get a feel for that.
On the key thing, it could probably be clearer, but apparently I connect the dots fast enough to assume your original intent.
On the idea of Haruhi musing about having those powers, I think it's amusing and actually in-line with her character; if someone has something that's interesting, she'll want it/want to see it.
I'll have to agree with Sars that Kyon and Koizumi are a bit absent.
As for the meeting with Yuki, I suppose it matches Kyon's meeting with her, except more outward sarcasm and frustration/anger.
Chapter 4-- A revision of chapter three is up, as well.
Quote"And before that, when you wanted a clubroom, someone else just happened to have one, and raise no complaint when you take it over," she continues, sounding bored with the idea already, examining her nails. "Then you need a fifth person to fill up your club, and someone shows up who happens to cater to the interest of the most important person in your club, hmm?"
There might be a tense issue here; "raised" perhaps?
QuoteEvading Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I quickly track Mikuru down to an empty classroom-- The same one I found her in the first time, actually. She's got the same dreamy, distracted expression on her face, too.
Mikuru-chan? Or not?
Asahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it. It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth? In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack. But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches. There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there? If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?
At first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke. Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate. Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done. I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.
QuoteMikuru-chan? Or not?
I can't speak for potential intent, but this didn't bother me because it seemed like a conscious choice on Haruhi's part. There are a couple of instances before Mikuru's reveal where Haruhi doesn't use chan though, like:
QuoteKoizumi-kun draws the next marked toothpick, and then Mikuru draws an unmarked toothpick.
and
Quote"Oh, Nagato-san," Mikuru say slowly, looking bothered -- irritated more than anything else.
Also, should the say in there be said?
After Mikuru's reveal though the only time that Haruhi calls her Mikuru-chan is when she's talking in front of Kyon and it's clear that Haruhi is trying to be antagonistic towards her.
On a note of concern about the future, I did notice that after Koizumi tells Haruhi he's an esper that she wants to date him and he shoots her down. I'm curious then because that means that he'll have to do something that proves it to her, right? Because if not then like the other members she's not just going to take him at his word, not to mention that this version of Koizumi doesn't seem to be appealing to her in the slightest.
/me is happy because the fic is hitting its stride and I can follow what the point of it is!
Now for a spot of C&C.
Haruhi is weirdly consistent in referring to Koizumi as Koizumi-kun. (She says "Koizumi" without "-kun" exactly once in this chapter.) For some reason that's starting to feel a bit off to me. Maybe there's some connotation to it I'm not quite grasping?
QuoteMikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. Mostly unsurprised.
So is she nonplussed, or is she unsurprised? The two notions are kind of at odds here.
If suggestions are at all cared for, then...
"Mikuru-chan looks vaguely nonplussed about the entire thing, {but mostly unsurprised.}"
"Mikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. I'd expected her to act at least slightly more surprised to hear that {Yuki was capable of pulling a stunt like this!}"
"Where I'd expected her to look surprised about the entire thing, Mikuru-chan just looks... vaguely nonplussed? Like I'd told her that {insert suitable analogy here}."
etc.
As written right now, the point that 'nonplussed' is a very understated reaction compared to 'surprised' isn't really coming across, and it just looks odd.
EDIT: okay, the following hasn't happened yet. Hm. I'll worry about it whenever it comes up.
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 08:14:39 PM
On a note of concern about the future, I did notice that after Koizumi tells Haruhi he's an esper that
Huh? Koizumi tells who what when?? For some reason the version I'm able to download doesn't have anything of the sort... even after redownloading. It ends with Haruhi shouting at Kyon that both he and Mikuru are phony and then everyone dispersing from the clubroom.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 26, 2012, 10:34:31 PM
Huh? Koizumi tells who what when?? For some reason the version I'm able to download doesn't have anything of the sort... even after redownloading. It ends with Haruhi shouting at Kyon that both he and Mikuru are phony and then everyone dispersing from the clubroom.
I was going off of what he posted in a general outline earlier. I'm not sure if the plans have changed. It occurs to me know that I should really spoiler that (which I'll do after I'm done here). But I'm curious as to how it might be handled, given that so far Haruhi has reacted to the reveals with a mix of confusion, disbelief and annoyance since no one is actually willing to provide any proof for their claims.
Sorry about the confusion and or spoilage.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMQuote"And before that, when you wanted a clubroom, someone else just happened to have one, and raise no complaint when you take it over," she continues, sounding bored with the idea already, examining her nails. "Then you need a fifth person to fill up your club, and someone shows up who happens to cater to the interest of the most important person in your club, hmm?"
There might be a tense issue here; "raised" perhaps?
Y...es. That seems to be it precisely. Changed to 'raises,' since it fits a little better.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMQuoteEvading Sakanaka and Yanagimoto, I quickly track Mikuru down to an empty classroom-- The same one I found her in the first time, actually. She's got the same dreamy, distracted expression on her face, too.
Mikuru-chan? Or not?
At this point, not. Decidedly not.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMAsahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it. It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth? In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack. But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches. There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there? If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?
Hum. I want this handled in story, not in responses in C&C.
Mikuru outright states she wouldn't bother except that (1) Yuki did it first, and that (2) she doesn't believe it will change anything. There is also a less well explained implication that Mikuru's pity for Haruhi is genuine, and she's trying to actually
help Haruhi. Why else would someone who could turn on the moe act like a switch slip up and look sorry for Haruhi?
Naturally, from her own PoV, Haruhi can't see it that way, and playing it up too much costs Haruhi sympathy by making her blind to someone trying to help her out. I may have to figure out another approach.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMAt first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke. Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate. Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done. I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.
Hmm. That sounds like the premise is sound, at least, but the execution is still off.... Then again, Haruhi labeled Mikuru's antics an act even before that reveal, so hmm. I think it's adequately forshadowed? Erg. Well, I need to fix the fact that it feels off that Mikuru bothers giving a reveal -- maybe careful word choice could help.
Or maybe instead of being subtle, Mikuru should tell Haruhi outright that she's trying to help, but knows it won't do any good. That'd probably stun Haruhi into silence at least long enough to decide that she didn't believe Mikuru. I'll have to consider my options on that one.
Sorry for the delay-- As always, thanks for the feedback. :)
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 08:14:39 PMQuoteMikuru-chan? Or not?
I can't speak for potential intent, but this didn't bother me because it seemed like a conscious choice on Haruhi's part. There are a couple of instances before Mikuru's reveal where Haruhi doesn't use chan though, like:
QuoteKoizumi-kun draws the next marked toothpick, and then Mikuru draws an unmarked toothpick.
Yeah -- I should have caught those. She should conisistently be 'Mikuru-chan' in Haruhi's narration until her reveal. I might redo some or parts of that scene to address Muphrid's concerns, though, so will need to pay close attention to that transition again.
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 08:14:39 PMQuote"Oh, Nagato-san," Mikuru say slowly, looking bothered -- irritated more than anything else.
Also, should the say in there be said?
Should be 'says', but yeah, tense error on my part. >_<
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 08:14:39 PMAfter Mikuru's reveal though the only time that Haruhi calls her Mikuru-chan is when she's talking in front of Kyon and it's clear that Haruhi is trying to be antagonistic towards her.
Glad that worked.
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 08:14:39 PMSpoiler stuff!
Ah, yeah ... we'll jump off that bridge when we get to it.
The outline raises questions, because it's incomplete. Don't worry about that too much; those kinds of comments are great for the planning phase; they've spawned many an idea in the pile....
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. :)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 26, 2012, 10:34:31 PM/me is happy because the fic is hitting its stride and I can follow what the point of it is!
Now for a spot of C&C.
Haruhi is weirdly consistent in referring to Koizumi as Koizumi-kun. (She says "Koizumi" without "-kun" exactly once in this chapter.) For some reason that's starting to feel a bit off to me. Maybe there's some connotation to it I'm not quite grasping?
Just the honorific she labels him with. I fixed the one missing instance. It shouldn't feel more off than Kyon calling Mikuru 'Asahina-san' constantly.
I'm not sure why the consistancy is 'weird'? Maybe it feels off because there's so many fanfics where Haruhi just calls him 'Koizumi', just like she doesn't in canon?
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 26, 2012, 10:34:31 PMQuoteMikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. Mostly unsurprised.
So is she nonplussed, or is she unsurprised? The two notions are kind of at odds here.
[...]
As written right now, the point that 'nonplussed' is a very understated reaction compared to 'surprised' isn't really coming across, and it just looks odd.
Yeah, that's clumsy on my part. Okay....
Quote from: revisionMikuru-chan looks mostly nonplussed about the entire thing. Almost completely unsurprised.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 26, 2012, 10:34:31 PMEDIT: okay, the following hasn't happened yet. Hm. I'll worry about it whenever it comes up.
Excellent policy.
Thanks for the replies. Hmm. In general, I seem to be making fewer mistakes in characterization, judging by feedback. Excellent! :D
Quote from: Grahf on January 26, 2012, 11:08:09 PMI was going off of what he posted in a general outline earlier. I'm not sure if the plans have changed. [...] But I'm curious as to how it might be handled[...].
Well, I'll try to have the next chapter finished tonight -- or at least this weekend -- so you can find out. :)
Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2012, 05:31:46 PM
Quote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMAsahina is flaunting how she can play Kyon and how Haruhi can't do anything about it. It gives a distinct twist on her attitude, but I do wonder--what does she have to gain in telling Haruhi the truth? In non-bizarro world, everyone wants Kyon's help to keep Haruhi stable; they feel like he has influence over her that they all lack. But as has been said, Kyon can be passive for long stretches. There's nothing he necessarily wants to change, or is there? If they don't need Haruhi's influence over Kyon, why tell her anything?
Hum. I want this handled in story, not in responses in C&C.
Mikuru outright states she wouldn't bother except that (1) Yuki did it first, and that (2) she doesn't believe it will change anything. There is also a less well explained implication that Mikuru's pity for Haruhi is genuine, and she's trying to actually help Haruhi. Why else would someone who could turn on the moe act like a switch slip up and look sorry for Haruhi?
Naturally, from her own PoV, Haruhi can't see it that way, and playing it up too much costs Haruhi sympathy by making her blind to someone trying to help her out. I may have to figure out another approach.
I get the pity. It's just that, maybe it's Haruhi's percpetions or maybe it's the text itself, but Asahina comes off hostile or sneaky when she's not pitying Haruhi. For example:
Quote from: chapter 04
"What makes you think you believing me is important to my goals?" she returns, shaking her head. "Calm down and think for a minute."
...
"Let's be clear," Mikuru-chan replies, smirking. "None of us are in your club because it's fun -- except maybe for Kyon-kun. Did you really think that members like this would just come together for you?"
...
"And all it took was standing in the right place and looking lost in a daydream," she returned. "Just when you were hoping to find someone.... Let's see-- Someone who looked 'cute' and 'harmless' -- someone non-threatening to you that still held appeal? Someone that even you thought that Kyon-kun would smile at?"
...
"Let me just say this much," Mikuru returns, giving me a smile that looks strangely sympathetic. "You make my assignment ... <em>very</em> easy." She gives me a doe-eyed look at that, sniffling, slipping <em>right</em> back into her moe-mode, and for the first time ever, I think I have a negative reaction to cuteness.
To me, these lines paint the picture of a manipulative person who dismisses Haruhi because the latter can't see the truth that's in front of her face. I definitely like the moment where Haruhi is sickened by just how jarring Asahina's act of being cute is compared to the base of her personality, but going back to the original question (why Asahina bothers to tell Haruhi anything), I guess a feeling of it not doing any harm because Haruhi won't believe is fine. That
is what she says, and I got caught up looking for a more complicated answer. That said, I do like the idea of Asahina pitying Haruhi and, perhaps, genuinely wanting to support her in what ways she can. It's just that those moments are somewhat spaced out, I guess.
QuoteQuote from: Muphrid on January 26, 2012, 07:01:42 PMAt first, it bothered me that Haruhi would put up with Asahina's act, but the confrontation near the end made sense, in that she could lash out at Kyon and Asahina in one stroke. Kyon does seem to take it to heart, though we can only tell so much about why from Haruhi's perspective, and that feels appropriate. Haruhi's realization that Kyon does act as the functional center of the brigade--and of her attentions--is well done. I feel like that's what carries this chapter, and I think it works.
Hmm. That sounds like the premise is sound, at least, but the execution is still off.... Then again, Haruhi labeled Mikuru's antics an act even before that reveal, so hmm. I think it's adequately forshadowed? Erg. Well, I need to fix the fact that it feels off that Mikuru bothers giving a reveal -- maybe careful word choice could help.
Or maybe instead of being subtle, Mikuru should tell Haruhi outright that she's trying to help, but knows it won't do any good. That'd probably stun Haruhi into silence at least long enough to decide that she didn't believe Mikuru. I'll have to consider my options on that one.
Sorry for the delay-- As always, thanks for the feedback. :)
Yeah, Haruhi knew Asahina wasn't totally genuine before this chapter. I was just wondering, would Haruhi really take that? She suspected before and she knows now that Asahina is not what she thinks, is manipulative and may even have more power over Kyon and than Haruhi herself thanks to this ruse, but then I saw she went into the clumsiness bit, and it was her way of paying Asahina back, of getting revenge in a small way or trying to reclaim power--that's what I meant, is that I thought Haruhi would fight back and she did, just on her own time and and in her own way.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 27, 2012, 06:34:37 PMI get the pity. It's just that, maybe it's Haruhi's percpetions or maybe it's the text itself, but Asahina comes off hostile or sneaky when she's not pitying Haruhi. For example:
Quote from: chapter 04[stuff]
To me, these lines paint the picture of a manipulative person who dismisses Haruhi because the latter can't see the truth that's in front of her face. I definitely like the moment where Haruhi is sickened by just how jarring Asahina's act of being cute is compared to the base of her personality, but going back to the original question (why Asahina bothers to tell Haruhi anything), I guess a feeling of it not doing any harm because Haruhi won't believe is fine. That is what she says, and I got caught up looking for a more complicated answer. That said, I do like the idea of Asahina pitying Haruhi and, perhaps, genuinely wanting to support her in what ways she can. It's just that those moments are somewhat spaced out, I guess.
Okay-- I'll reign Mikuru's manipulativeness in a little bit. Or at least, her overt disdain/contempt as compared to her, "You really don't understand what you're doing wrong? That's so sad..." tone. It needs to be enough that Haruhi feels justified (to the reader) in snapping at Mikuru later-- So she can't be
too supportive.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 27, 2012, 06:34:37 PMYeah, Haruhi knew Asahina wasn't totally genuine before this chapter. I was just wondering, would Haruhi really take that? She suspected before and she knows now that Asahina is not what she thinks, is manipulative and may even have more power over Kyon and than Haruhi herself thanks to this ruse, but then I saw she went into the clumsiness bit, and it was her way of paying Asahina back, of getting revenge in a small way or trying to reclaim power--that's what I meant, is that I thought Haruhi would fight back and she did, just on her own time and and in her own way.
Okay. I think the revisions I have in mind to keep Mikuru a bit more consistent should help with that a little-- Then I can focus on Haruhi being off balance until she loses her temper and play those aspects up a bit.
QuoteOkay-- I'll reign Mikuru's manipulativeness in a little bit. Or at least, her overt disdain/contempt as compared to her, "You really don't understand what you're doing wrong? That's so sad..." tone. It needs to be enough that Haruhi feels justified (to the reader) in snapping at Mikuru later-- So she can't be too supportive.
Yeah, I think I see what you're doing and that there's necessarily a lot of nuance involved. I don't know if this is an angle you'd want to pursue, but because Asahina can pretend and act here, it could be Haruhi would interpret any genuine sadness and pity as just being part of the act, as demeaning her. Again, not sure if that's something you'd want to do, but just a thought.
Maybe. I've got some minor changes that I think tweak the scene appropriately; if they don't work out when I post the revision tonight, I'll take another crack at it. :)
I feel a bit bad for both you and Arakawa that you're offering suggestions, and I'm mostly dismissing them. >_>;;
It's not because they're bad suggestions (from either of you), as much as I'm so sensitive to this coming across wrong I've already got multiple 'fixes' in mind for any scenes that fall short in advance. -_-
Hope for the best! ...but plan for what actually happens most of the time. >_<
Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2012, 08:50:31 PM
I feel a bit bad for both you and Arakawa that you're offering suggestions, and I'm mostly dismissing them. >_>;;
It's not because they're bad suggestions (from either of you), as much as I'm so sensitive to this coming across wrong I've already got multiple 'fixes' in mind for any scenes that fall short in advance. -_-
From my perspective, giving feedback and having it dismissed because you know what you're doing, is by far preferable to giving the kind of feedback that causes you to consider dropping the story >_<
Besides which, there
is this constant gap in style and outlook between my own writing and others' which I can't quite bridge. For instance, I probably tend to overcomplicate things (*looks over my own half-finished outlines for various fics*) and I'm unsurprised that you went with a fix for "mostly nonplussed" which is simpler than any of my suggestions -- and, incidentally, it fixes things just fine.
I'm sorry for the late feedback, but I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm not sure what I should say, or even if I shouldn't say anything at all. My problem is that the latest chapter made me feel apprehensive. I couldn't figure out the reason for some time until I realized that I'm afraid that this fiction might be heading to the same direction as AAG. Specifically, the thing that made me worry was that while I find the moeness of the canon Asahina somewhere between barely tolerable and annoying, this Asahina here I find outright unlikeable. Having such a character pity Haruhi suggests that Asahina is supposed to be seen as a character that is more 'correct' or likeable than Haruhi, which makes me fear the possibility that instead of sympathy the goal of the story might be to break Haruhi and beat her into submission. I haven't read the outline and don't know whether I'm imagining things. Once again, I'm sorry that I can't give any constructive feedback, as I'm having mental blocks that prevent me from looking at the story closely enough.
Hmgh. Thinking about what sarsaparilla said... canon!Mikuru (at least initially) says things that imply her to be a very low-level technician who did not have any instructions to get that close to Haruhi. However, Haruhi (bein the Ace) picks her out as the most suitable time traveler for the club, and Kyon develops genuine sympathy for her situation, Mikuru being truly out of her depth. If there are deeper reasons for Mikuru's presence, she was still chosen so as to be clueless about them, on the principle that you can't give away anything that you yourself have no idea about.
Now, sympathy!Asahina has specific instructions to act appealing to Kyon, so she's a completely different sort of time agent, who has to be able to do her 'job' with complete and utter indifference and cynicism. 'Not likeable' (as a person, not as a facade) is basically a requirement of her job description. I can't suggest anything regarding whether she could be adjusted to avoid raising apprehension
but
the specific thing I don't know regarding this story is, what is the ultimate goal of the 'job' that Haruhi's presence is 'making easy' for Asahina? In general, the rule of thumb seems to be that Kyon is by-default stable and Haruhi is an unplanned disruption which the factions would prefer not to have; so if Haruhi hadn't shown up, what would Asahina's job have entailed? What do the time travelers get out of Asahina having Kyon's attention, anyways?
It's not a question I was worrying about before, but it strikes me as important to settle if you do want to consider ways that Haruhi's interactions with Asahina might have gone differently.
Legitimately speaking, Haruhi seems to have even fewer good reasons to get along with Asahina than Kyon ever did with Koizumi. Kyon suspects Koizumi might be putting up an act to get into the warper's confidence, Haruhi knows Asahina is putting up an act. I get the impression that this is the basic parallel being followed in developing Asahina's character.
sarsaparilla, what would you say was different between the Haruhi/Yuki chapter, and this one, that made you apprehensive specifically at this point? (Actually, I'm not sure which fic AAG is, so maybe knowing that would answer the question somewhat.)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 28, 2012, 10:17:28 AMI'm sorry for the late feedback, but I've been thinking about this a lot and I'm not sure what I should say, or even if I shouldn't say anything at all. My problem is that the latest chapter made me feel apprehensive. I couldn't figure out the reason for some time until I realized that I'm afraid that this fiction might be heading to the same direction as AAG. Specifically, the thing that made me worry was that while I find the moeness of the canon Asahina somewhere between barely tolerable and annoying, this Asahina here I find outright unlikeable. Having such a character pity Haruhi suggests that Asahina is supposed to be seen as a character that is more 'correct' or likeable than Haruhi, which makes me fear the possibility that instead of sympathy the goal of the story might be to break Haruhi and beat her into submission. I haven't read the outline and don't know whether I'm imagining things. Once again, I'm sorry that I can't give any constructive feedback, as I'm having mental blocks that prevent me from looking at the story closely enough.
I would like to think that for all of my failings, I've learned enough from our discussions to not blindly make that mistake again. I really wish you could see AAG as I intended it; someone choosing to learn from their mistakes and bettering themselves when they realize the world is larger than them; not the cruel manipulation you see it as-- I've been agonizing over how to bridge
that gap for over a month by now.
But I don't know how to do that yet.
To be clear, the thing you're afraid of is not the intended plan. I can see how the structure is similar enough that you might see, "This is just heading towards being mean to Haruhi and forcing her to change." That's not where the story is going; I just have a habit of trying to make even antagonists as somewhat sympathetic (or really, more identifiable). The goal was not in any way to hint that Mikuru's behavior was more 'good' or moral-- She is, to put it plainly, a manipulative bitch, and her 'pity' for Haruhi makes her (in my eyes) condescending and cruel.
I'd like to reassure you and say that yes, you are imagining things ... but this really backs up my theory that (even if it's subconscious), you don't like my writing because it's just done wrong by you one-time-too-many. And that's fine! I've made myself come to grips with the idea that I only occasionally manage to write things that don't bother you a few months ago -- so please don't push yourself further on my account.
Thank you for your feedback anyway; I hope the next story I write will be one of the few that manages not to upset you, and appreciate the feedback that you did offer. :)
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 28, 2012, 11:31:16 AM(Actually, I'm not sure which fic AAG is, so maybe knowing that would answer the question somewhat.)
At A Glance. Let's try not to discuss that fic here; it's still kind of soulcrushing for me that something I intended to be uplifting manages to come across as it does to Sarsaparilla. Huhu--
I just realized; I have a sixth sense. Whenever I'm really, really confident about something and I post it, Sarsaparilla doesn't like it. The correlation is 100%.
...how depressing; my half-hearted joke is actually true in retrospect. I'll label this new sense 'common' and wish I'd developed it years ago.
Anyway:
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on January 28, 2012, 11:31:16 AMthe specific thing I don't know regarding this story is, what is the ultimate goal of the 'job' that Haruhi's presence is 'making easy' for Asahina? In general, the rule of thumb seems to be that Kyon is by-default stable and Haruhi is an unplanned disruption which the factions would prefer not to have; so if Haruhi hadn't shown up, what would Asahina's job have entailed? What do the time travelers get out of Asahina having Kyon's attention, anyways?
It's not a question I was worrying about before, but it strikes me as important to settle if you do want to consider ways that Haruhi's interactions with Asahina might have gone differently.
Oh, well:
Not sure I actually want to invest the time-- The thing about it is ... those details will never actually be relevant because of the planned climax. Before it gets to the point where those questions could be answered, well, it won't matter.
Quote from: Brian on January 28, 2012, 11:52:43 AMThe goal was not in any way to hint that Mikuru's behavior was more 'good' or moral-- She is, to put it plainly, a manipulative bitch, and her 'pity' for Haruhi makes her (in my eyes) condescending and cruel.
This is exactly the impression I got from the chapter which shows that you're right on the mark. Please forgive my speculation that was completely unjustified.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 28, 2012, 12:15:39 PMThis is exactly the impression I got from the chapter which shows that you're right on the mark. Please forgive my speculation that was completely unjustified.
I don't think that's worthy of an apology, actually. Speculation is fine -- asking questions to clarify things.... That's absolutely not something you should apologize for; you're trying to improve communication and understanding. I'd rather you ask and allow the window for explanation and communication than otherwise!
So ... I must politely ignore the apology, because you didn't do anything to warrant it. Instead, let me apologize that my delivery made you apprehensive. I'm sorry I keep doing that. >_<;
Hm. I have little confidence in this chapter.
That's probably for the best.
Edit: Updated chapter four in the first post.
I can't say much at the moment, but I seem to get the implication here that you want to portray Kyon's Shinjins as docile, or at least threatening to a much lesser degree than the ones Haruhi produced. I don't know if you'd want to have Haruhi comment on the fact that it doesn't seem to be doing anything and have that as a chance for Koizumi to expodump a little.
If I'm wrong then feel free to ignore this.
Mmm, yeah, they are relatively more docile, but mostly Haruhi had thrown Koizumi off by her demand. It they were totally docile, the espers would probably have a different job. The implications that it's 'harmless' aren't really great; makes the espers come across as bullies, and also delivers an unwanted message.
I was aiming for it to act more Kyonlike; where Haruhi's energetic and gung-ho (and her shinjin, too), Kyon's apathetic and lethargic (and so...). The goal was more that Koizumi was distracted from pointing at it awakening by Haruhi's unexpected demand.
I'll revamp that so it at least destroys one building before it gets attacked -- and make Koizumi's distraction more obvious. The exploding building can bring focus back to where it ought to be.
Thanks for the feedback; I'll have a cleaned draft posted as soon as I run out of inspiration for the next chapter. :D
Revision of chapter 5.
Also, I had insomnia, so instead of sleeping, I wrote chapter 6, too.
Well, that was certainly unexpected. Kyon's knowledge and how he addresses Haruhi make the twist clear relatively fast, but it's not bad.
Is it bad that "inadequate bonding with secondary observation target" makes me think of visual novels where you don't trigger enough flags?
The transition in POVs is a bit abrupt and forces you to recall exactly what happened in the prologue. It certainly puts you in the correct "what the heck is going on here" mindset. On that same thought, the pacing and length of the time between the note and the meeting serves to mirror Haruhi's own impatience.
Chapter 5This feels much, much better than the previous chapter. After Nagato's indifference and Asahina's hostility the inversion of Koizumi is actually a rather likeable person, and reverses the trend of Haruhi becoming progressively more isolated from the rest of the brigade. A welcome reassurance. Haruhi's excitement and impulsivity is well portrayed.
QuoteHe's easier to talk to about it, but to cut a very, very long conversation into a more reasonable-length one, his stance is basically a rehash of the same bizarre Kyon-centric solipsism as the others.
This sentence comes through as somewhat abrupt. Maybe Haruhi could mention a couple of things that Koizumi speaks about and then give her verdict on the whole, to make it flow better?
Haruhi's interaction with her mother is a nice brick joke, and made me smile.
Chapter 6An unexpected turn -- it feels like the story was building momentum in a different direction and then suddenly jumped right into the endgame. If I understand correctly, the story would appear to wrap itself up in the next chapter.
What is 'Nevada-tan'? A shout-out to some other series?
Continuity issue: Haruhi's unfreezing after Asakura is taken care of is not mentioned at all.
QuoteThat person being what looks like a very slightly younger version of me!
Would it really be possible to tell that?
Several plot points are left open, so I can't comment them until the next chapter.
'Nevada-tan' refers to a schoolgirl that murdered one of her classmates with a utility knife - happened a few years ago. No name was ever released because of her age, but she was seen in pictures wearing a sweatshirt with 'Nevada' on it, so she's referred to as Nevada-tan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasebo_slashing
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMChapter 5
This feels much, much better than the previous chapter. After Nagato's indifference and Asahina's hostility the inversion of Koizumi is actually a rather likeable person, and reverses the trend of Haruhi becoming progressively more isolated from the rest of the brigade. A welcome reassurance. Haruhi's excitement and impulsivity is well portrayed.
Okay. Koizumi's goal is mostly to get Haruhi and Kyon together, same as in canon. Being a real jerk to Haruhi wouldn't help him, so.... Glad that part worked for you. :)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMQuoteHe's easier to talk to about it, but to cut a very, very long conversation into a more reasonable-length one, his stance is basically a rehash of the same bizarre Kyon-centric solipsism as the others.
This sentence comes through as somewhat abrupt. Maybe Haruhi could mention a couple of things that Koizumi speaks about and then give her verdict on the whole, to make it flow better?
Yeah, I can see that. I'll expand on it a bit, then:
Quote from: chapter 5.0.3Probably, we look like highschool students on a date. And even _more_ likely, that nosy old woman who lives there will tell my mom about it. He arrived in a cab, though, so that's better than running to the train station. "Well?" I prompt Koizumi, glancing at the older gentleman who's driving, once the doors are shut and we start rolling into motion.
He starts off by explaining that something happened to him -- and a small number of other people -- across the world around three years ago. The same time as the 'data spike' and 'temporal anomaly.' He also explains Kyon's ability in _slightly_ more detail. The part that catches me the most is where he says he thought at one point he might be going crazy; I've got to have a little sympathy for that, because I've felt similar things recently!
He's easier to talk to about it, but to cut a very, very long conversation into a more reasonable-length one, his stance is basically a rehash of the same bizarre Kyon-centric solipsism as the others. This is the longest car ride I've ever been on, and if the material were any less interesting, I'd have fallen asleep! He's a bit clearer about it, and also throws in his 'type.' Evidently Koizumi's an _esper_, able to sense Kyon's unrest.
Does that help?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMHaruhi's interaction with her mother is a nice brick joke, and made me smile.
Hooray! :D
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMAn unexpected turn -- it feels like the story was building momentum in a different direction and then suddenly jumped right into the endgame. If I understand correctly, the story would appear to wrap itself up in the next chapter.
The execution has drifted somewhat from my original outline. Then again, as is said, "No plan survives contact with the enemy." I'm worried about the shift feeling too abrupt, here. My hope is that it mirrors (despite the obvious differences) the original canon closely enough that it works anyway, and doesn't feel like a complete ass-pull. :X
But I expect the next chapter to be the last one. Probably there will not be room for an epilogue, considering my planned ending.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMWhat is 'Nevada-tan'? A shout-out to some other series?
As per Hal's link above-- There's a risk of this being both too obscure, and tasteless. >_>;;
If it offends, I'll replace it with an anime reference.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMContinuity issue: Haruhi's unfreezing after Asakura is taken care of is not mentioned at all.
Hmm? That's not true:
Quote from: chapter 6.0.1The spell of me being frozen and Asakura moving in slow-motion is broken as a thunderous slap resounds, the class representative being backhanded forcefully enough that she flies away, crashing into and knocking over Yanagimoto's desk. The knife clatters from her hand and skitters away across the floor.
I'm going to take your comment to mean I was too subtle about it and need to make it more obvious, since that does seem to be the case. Haruhi's reaction to something that severe obviously needs to be more significant than it was. Let's see ... how about:
Quote from: chapter 6.0.2The spell of me being frozen and Asakura moving in slow-motion is broken as a thunderous _slap_ resounds, the class representative being backhanded forcefully enough that she flies away, crashing into and knocking over Yanagimoto's desk. The knife clatters from her hand and skitters away across the floor, as I jump back, my body shaking with relief that I'm not trapped anymore.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMQuoteThat person being what looks like a very slightly younger version of me!
Would it really be possible to tell that?
To be honest, I don't know. I think if anyone could, it'd be Haruhi. If it jars, hmm. I can say that prologue!Haruhi has slightly longer hair? That doesn't quite cut it. Alright, I'll just go with Haruhi thinking it's a copy of her, then.
Quote from: chapter 6.0.2At this point, demanding an explanation would pretty much just be echoing _that_ person. _That_ person being what looks like ... well ... a copy of _me_!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMSeveral plot points are left open, so I can't comment them until the next chapter.
I realized I said this story ignored novels 10/11, but just directly referenced them when Kyon mentioned that she'd 'done it before.' Hmm. I'll need to think about that.
Alright -- thanks for the feedback; glad that you're not unsettled by this again. :)
Quote from: sarsaparilla on January 30, 2012, 01:41:13 PMQuoteThat person being what looks like a very slightly younger version of me!
Would it really be possible to tell that?
QuoteTo be honest, I don't know. I think if anyone could, it'd be Haruhi. If it jars, hmm. I can say that prologue!Haruhi has slightly longer hair? That doesn't quite cut it. Alright, I'll just go with Haruhi thinking it's a copy of her, then.
I think this part is fine as it is. If you forget for a moment that Haruhi is an anime character and they always look the same-- Haruhi is still a teenager, and a 17 year old looking back at her 16 year old self there's bound to be some slight differences from the face she sees in the mirror every morning.
Quote from: Oroboro on January 30, 2012, 04:08:01 PMI think this part is fine as it is. If you forget for a moment that Haruhi is an anime character and they always look the same-- Haruhi is still a teenager, and a 17 year old looking back at her 16 year old self there's bound to be some slight differences from the face she sees in the mirror every morning.
older!Haruhi: "Hey, I look like a K-On style character! She doesn't! I can read an art shift.
alternate!Haruhi: "But if this scene is done by the same art staff, aren't we going to be drawn in the same style anyway?"
I think Sarsaparilla makes a good point that it might raise some questions if Haruhi does spot that, though. I think the change should work -- in retrospect she should be more surprised to see a second her at all than to get hung up on the distinction of age. And there's no reason that the (slightly) younger Haruhi can't suspect it's time travel.
For chapter five:
QuoteUnless I'm being chased down by Yanagimoto and Sakanaka, I can still run off between classes, or for lunch, and not be bothered. Kyon was quiet all day in class today, probably still upset by how we left off yesterday. I can't say I'm at all happy about it, either -- but the important part stuck with me.
"Today" close to "day"?
QuoteKyon pauses, and something seems to go through his expression when he glances back at us. He quickly seems to dismiss it, shaking his head and walking away. Mikuru goes to the costume rack and takes her uniform down,then gives Koizumi-kun an expectant look.
Space after "down,"
QuoteSighing, Koizumi-kun gives a small shake of his head and tells me, "I'll pick you up for a demonstration at your place in about forty minutes." He glances at Yuki and Mikuru, then shrugs. "Be ready," he adds, giving me the impression that the notice was more for <em>their</em> benefit than <em>mine</em>.
"Be ready," huh? Koizumi isn't shy about wanting to impress. I think that's a good dimension for him.
QuoteI can't come up with any especially good guesses before getting home. My mom isn't there yet, so I have plenty of time to switch out to casual clothing. A skirt with pockets, and a purse with everything I think I could need in it. Most important is my phone, which has a GPS in it in case something goes really wrong, and a camera, in case there's anything worthwhile to see.
"In case" is used twice in short succession.
QuoteKoizumi comes by not long after I finish changing. I can't be too surprised that he knows where I live when I didn't give him my address; he has access to the student directory, just like anyone else. I do pause for a second to think about what we must look like to the house across the street.
Slight nitpick: it seems like Haruhi is trying to convince the reader, more than herself, that it's not unusual for Koizumi to know where she lives.
Quote"Almost," he agrees. "On those occasions that Kyon-kun is pushed far enough ... those in my organization who were gifted with our powers that day three years ago join together." The cab stops abruptly, and I realize that I have no clue where we are. Koizumi steps out of the car without hesitation, and I crawl after him, popping out the same door before he can shut it.
Does the "our" in "our powers" feel awkward to you? Actually, I'm not sure about that entire sentence. It's a bit long and has a lot of modifiers to keep track of, though the meaning is perfectly clear.
QuoteI grab it, warning him without hesitation, "This <em>doesn't</em> mean we're dating -- and if that's all this is a ploy for...." I let the threat dangle at that.
"Without hesitation" is used just two lines before.
QuoteHe chuckles dryly and says, "You may find it more comfortable if you close your eyes."
I'm intrigued Haruhi doesn't think that part a ploy for a kiss, unless she's just leaving that unsaid. I like that she does look and finds the experience as overwhelming as we could've imagined.
Quote"Okay!" I exclaim, turning around and grabbing Koizumi-kun's nearest hand. I fix him with a sharp look, locking gazes with him. "Go out with me," I demand.
Oh, Haruhi. Dear, dear Haruhi. I like that this comes out of nowhere at first, but later on, she asks him out again, and it seems a bit devoid of thought process. You can feel Haruhi's wonder and excitement, but only with the scene at hand, not with the prospect of dating an esper or anything like that. Especially given the point where she's forced to consider Koizumi's reasoning--I think a spot where she basks in the thought of dating him would make that thought a lot more concrete (and, hence, to make the passage where she backs off the idea a lot more meaningful as well).
For chapter six:
Quote"If that were an option, I might!" she says in a way-too friendly voice.
Asakura, this is why we
love your enthusiasm.
QuoteCompletely unperturbed, shifting from foot-to-foot slightly, she continues, "In that vein, since my superiors are not capable of lateral thinking. They're really out of touch with how quickly things can change in this reality. Therefore, I'm compelled to do something in order to try and make a change -- any change at all, don't you agree?"
Asakura's first sentence of dialogue seems incomplete. Maybe a colon or a dash instead?
Quote"You could consider Nagato and I colleagues," she replies, her grin, if anything, widening. "Though, our own sponsors don't agree on ideal approaches."
Just "Nagato" in this world, huh?
Quote"Well, if you're willing to work with me -- kick him out of your club and never speak to him again."
Oh, oh! For just a moment, one
thinks this can turn out differently. Very nice.
Quote"Go home or I'll wipe your boss out," Kyon overrides her.
Now this is a surprise.
QuoteThe seemingly emotionless girl blinks, then lowers her face, her gaze oriented at Kyon's feet. "...insufficent time to react due to inadequate bonding with secondary observation target," she says, sounding the slightest bit hesitant. Then, her shoulders slumping the tiniest bit -- I would have missed it if I weren't watching -- she raises her face and looks at me. "I am sorry."
It seems...off that Nagato immediately blames this on insufficient bonding. She could've been monitoring Haruhi at regular intervals per her directives, and maybe the reason she was able to save Kyon in the other world was because she allocated even more resources to doing so, beyond her original directives. It's the same reason, but it doesn't require just coming out and saying it?
Also, "insufficient" (lost an i)
On the whole: wow, so I see what's happened. The alpha-beta split thing does work well here. It all works, so there's nothing to do but wait and see how this plays out. Koizumi's effort to be on good terms with Haruhi was refreshing, and Haruhi's admission that she likes being closer to Kyon than the others is good to see.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMFor chapter five:
QuoteUnless I'm being chased down by Yanagimoto and Sakanaka, I can still run off between classes, or for lunch, and not be bothered. Kyon was quiet all day in class today, probably still upset by how we left off yesterday. I can't say I'm at all happy about it, either -- but the important part stuck with me.
"Today" close to "day"?
Yay~! Feedback!
Okay -- as per usual, if I don't comment on a grammatical correction, it's because I used it. :)
Cut out the 'all day'.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuoteSighing, Koizumi-kun gives a small shake of his head and tells me, "I'll pick you up for a demonstration at your place in about forty minutes." He glances at Yuki and Mikuru, then shrugs. "Be ready," he adds, giving me the impression that the notice was more for <em>their</em> benefit than <em>mine</em>.
"Be ready," huh? Koizumi isn't shy about wanting to impress. I think that's a good dimension for him.
I have a hard time overcoming my negative bias against Koizumi. Broizumi (here) is my attempt to make a nicer presentation of his character.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuoteI can't come up with any especially good guesses before getting home. My mom isn't there yet, so I have plenty of time to switch out to casual clothing. A skirt with pockets, and a purse with everything I think I could need in it. Most important is my phone, which has a GPS in it in case something goes really wrong, and a camera, in case there's anything worthwhile to see.
"In case" is used twice in short succession.
Oop. Okay:
Quote from: revisionMost important is my phone, which has a GPS, and a camera, in case there's anything worthwhile to see.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuoteKoizumi comes by not long after I finish changing. I can't be too surprised that he knows where I live when I didn't give him my address; he has access to the student directory, just like anyone else. I do pause for a second to think about what we must look like to the house across the street.
Slight nitpick: it seems like Haruhi is trying to convince the reader, more than herself, that it's not unusual for Koizumi to know where she lives.
Well ... she is. :\
Okay; it can be a suspicious that he knows where she lives without her saying anything. Instead, it'll be played as-- Eh, well, here's the revision:
Quote from: revisionKoizumi comes by not long after I finish changing. It's maybe a _little_ strange, now that I think about it, that he already knows where I live. That doesn't really prove he's something paranormal; anyone who put enough effort into it could find their way to a student directory. I do pause for a second to think about what we must look like to the house across the street, though.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMDoes the "our" in "our powers" feel awkward to you? Actually, I'm not sure about that entire sentence. It's a bit long and has a lot of modifiers to keep track of, though the meaning is perfectly clear.
No reason it can't be trimmed for readability.
Quote from: revision"On those occasions that Kyon-kun is pushed far enough ... those in my organization who were gifted with powers by him join together."
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AM"Without hesitation" is used just two lines before.
Dropped the second instance.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuoteHe chuckles dryly and says, "You may find it more comfortable if you close your eyes."
I'm intrigued Haruhi doesn't think that part a ploy for a kiss, unless she's just leaving that unsaid. I like that she does look and finds the experience as overwhelming as we could've imagined.
Well ... I left out the part where they're walking across the street in a relatively crowded area, as per the novels. Hmm. I suppose it's worth making a nod to, but I don't see making it explicit adding much, so I made this minor revision:
Quote from: revisionI keep my eyes peeled -- on _him -- as he leads me across the crosswalk.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuote"Okay!" I exclaim, turning around and grabbing Koizumi-kun's nearest hand. I fix him with a sharp look, locking gazes with him. "Go out with me," I demand.
Oh, Haruhi. Dear, dear Haruhi. I like that this comes out of nowhere at first, but later on, she asks him out again, and it seems a bit devoid of thought process. You can feel Haruhi's wonder and excitement, but only with the scene at hand, not with the prospect of dating an esper or anything like that. Especially given the point where she's forced to consider Koizumi's reasoning--I think a spot where she basks in the thought of dating him would make that thought a lot more concrete (and, hence, to make the passage where she backs off the idea a lot more meaningful as well).
Hmmm. That would fit in during the battle with the shinjin, but then -- she'd made the first demand before then. Alright; I think I can put that before her first demand, though it does lessen the comical 'out of nowhere' aspect I wanted to play up. Well, maybe....
Quote from: revision"Okay!" I exclaim, turning around and fixing him with a sharp look, locking gazes.
I can't speak for the others, because they weren't willing to give me proof. But that doesn't matter anymore, because Koizumi-kun did! This is the start of something amazing -- with him at my side, there's no _end_ to the amazing adventures we could have! Checking out these closed spaces, using his powers to solve mysteries....
Plus, how many other people have been able to be this close to an esper -- and known it? That hought in mind, I grab Koizumi-kun's nearest hand and hold it tightly.
He raises an eyebrow and looks at me curiously.
"Go out with me," I demand.
If that works?
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMFor chapter six:
Quote"If that were an option, I might!" she says in a way-too friendly voice.
Asakura, this is why we love your enthusiasm.
There's probably something wrong with me, the way her dialog and behavor just comes to me naturally for this type of scene. >_>;
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuoteCompletely unperturbed, shifting from foot-to-foot slightly, she continues, "In that vein, since my superiors are not capable of lateral thinking. They're really out of touch with how quickly things can change in this reality. Therefore, I'm compelled to do something in order to try and make a change -- any change at all, don't you agree?"
Asakura's first sentence of dialogue seems incomplete. Maybe a colon or a dash instead?
Ah, yeah. I grabbed the dialog straight from my copy of the translation of Melancholy. I then didn't like how the dialog there was different from mine. I _probably_ need to try and bring what I write closer in line with the original translation style, but ... given there's an official and unofficial translation, and I'm much more familiar with the latter....
Anyway, I worked it over with a hammer, and missed a few things:
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMCompletely unperturbed, shifting from foot-to-foot slightly, she continues, "In that vein, my superiors are not capable of lateral thinking. They're really out of touch with how quickly things can change in this reality. Therefore, I'm compelled to do something in order to try and make a change -- any change at all, don't you agree?"
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMJust "Nagato" in this world, huh?
In the translation I have, Asakura only ever refers to Yuki as 'you' (in Melancholy).
I suppose I could make it 'Yuki-chan' to see if we can't amp up the yandere a bit.
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMQuote"Go home or I'll wipe your boss out," Kyon overrides her.
Now this is a surprise.
Hopefully not in a bad way?
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMIt seems...off that Nagato immediately blames this on insufficient bonding. She could've been monitoring Haruhi at regular intervals per her directives, and maybe the reason she was able to save Kyon in the other world was because she allocated even more resources to doing so, beyond her original directives. It's the same reason, but it doesn't require just coming out and saying it?
Also, "insufficient" (lost an i)
Okay, hmm. Maybe slightly restating it to: "...insufficient data was gathered on the secondary observation target to predict this," ?
This doesn't explain to the reader that it's because Haruhi chose not to take her to the library, but that's probably not really important. And in retrospect, I doubt the original made it clear either....
Quote from: Muphrid on January 31, 2012, 01:00:29 AMOn the whole: wow, so I see what's happened. The alpha-beta split thing does work well here. It all works, so there's nothing to do but wait and see how this plays out. Koizumi's effort to be on good terms with Haruhi was refreshing, and Haruhi's admission that she likes being closer to Kyon than the others is good to see.
Excellent; thanks for the feedback, Muphrid. :D
I'll try and have the last chapter done in the next day or three. :)
Edit: Oh, forgot. I do need to revise the reference to the alpha/beta split out of this chapter, though -- the prologue is incompatible with that.
...or would have to be revised itself. Not sure which way to go; it's hard for me to see the Haruhi that was gentle with Kyon after he appeared suddenly in her bed in the middle of the night as the one that got so frustrated with Kyon in the prologue. :x
QuoteEdit: Oh, forgot. I do need to revise the reference to the alpha/beta split out of this chapter, though -- the prologue is incompatible with that.
...or would have to be revised itself. Not sure which way to go; it's hard for me to see the Haruhi that was gentle with Kyon after he appeared suddenly in her bed in the middle of the night as the one that got so frustrated with Kyon in the prologue. :x
This definitely seems like a tough call. Cutting the Alpha/beta reference would be easy, but it really seems to fit with the way the story is going. Revising the prologue could work too - Maybe change reason for the fight a bit, or Haruhi get's offended because she thinks he's bitching that he spent all his money on her gift or something. I dunno. It's up to you.
---
A second note, for clarification. In 05, when Koizumi is infodumping Haruhi, she kind of glosses over it and doesn't dwell on it. Because of this, I'm making the assumption that Koizumi never went so far as to call Kyon "god" or anything like it. Is this the case?
I don't know that I can bring the prologue into line; it's really hard for me to see Haruhi backslide that much, and trying to fit this story between Yasumi vanishing and the year anniversary doesn't feel right either.
I forgot about the 'god' thing, but that particular throwaway line has gotten enough fanon attention it probably doesn't need to be further conflated here.
QuoteIn the translation I have, Asakura only ever refers to Yuki as 'you' (in Melancholy).
I suppose I could make it 'Yuki-chan' to see if we can't amp up the yandere a bit.
Consulting the anime episode does suggest it should still be Nagato-san; Asakura says it right before she disappears, and I think the dialogue hems pretty closely to the novel version.
Otherwise, I did like the suddenness in Haruhi's "Go out with me!" line, so I'm not sure what to suggest. To me, having her affirm that sentiment by being excited over Koizumi's exploits during the battle seemed like a way to have cake and eat it too, but I'm not sure.
Oh? Alright -- I'll go with that.
I also tried moving Haruhi's introspection on 'how cool' it would be to be with Koizumi to be between the end of the battle and Koizumi returning. Seems to work.
And the final chapter. I can't really be confident about it.
I like it thematically, but ... I don't know if it really works. :(
As soon as my scripts finish running, I'll put an updated chapter 5 and 6 on the first post.
Edit: Gah-- Forgot to remove the YAML headers. >_< Please ignore the 'title' and 'numbering' bits at the top; they're related to my website.
One small spelling error I noticed:
Quote"Yuki keepa our tea refreshed"
Among my thoughts in general: did I spot a Traveller reference in there?
I didn't quite understand where Haruhi was going with the whole no one person thing, but when she got to the end it became obvious. I don't think it's a problem, but I was momentarily confused and thought that she was electing to just will the power away entirely.
As an aside I honestly wish I'd thought of the power sharing thing myself. It's something that just seems obvious but that I've never actually seen used before now I think.
I know that because of everything that's happened that Haruhi is going to have different perspectives on most of the Brigade, but her reaction to Mikuru still seems, I don't know, maybe a little too harsh. I don't know if Kyon could make it clear that she's not the same as the Alt!Mikuru, but then again he doesn't know if it's an act or not either. I could see Haruhi trying to help Mikuru -- assuming Mikuru wants help -- in order for her not to turn into the kind of Mikuru Big that Kyon is so distrustful of, but that kind of leaves a loose thread hanging where you probably don't want one.
One thing that only occurs to me now is why Kyon would even bring Asakura back. I know that she's the primary catalyst here for the actual sit down and talk portion that leads to the denouement, but you'd think that after having not one but two versions of her try to get all stabby that he'd be reluctant to ever see another version of her ever again. I guess that you could pass it off as him wishing that Haruhi could have gone through the exact same scenario, and thus she was made since that was one of the requirements, but that's something that might make Kyon even guiltier all things considered. Without her though it becomes a huge problem of just what happens to motivate the story to an endpoint.
I like the overall arc of the story, and I feel the ending is well placed and deals with the ramifications of Haruhi realizing her power well, as well as to how a relationship between her and Kyon as equals would play out. I realize that this must have been extremely difficult to write, and I feel you've done it justice with your implementation.
Heya. :)
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMOne small spelling error I noticed:
Quote"Yuki keepa our tea refreshed"
Ack-- Thanks for spotting that. :x
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMAmong my thoughts in general: did I spot a Traveller reference in there?
I didn't put one in intentionally, no. What resonated?
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMI didn't quite understand where Haruhi was going with the whole no one person thing, but when she got to the end it became obvious. I don't think it's a problem, but I was momentarily confused and thought that she was electing to just will the power away entirely.
I was kind of intentionally trying to give the wrong impression for suspense.... No good?
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMAs an aside I honestly wish I'd thought of the power sharing thing myself. It's something that just seems obvious but that I've never actually seen used before now I think.
It was actually brought up when we were discussing
The Coin-- Though in all honesty, I'd had this ending planned for quite a bit before those discussions. I'm a big fan of compromise when possible, and to me, going this route felt right for Kyon and Haruhi together.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMI know that because of everything that's happened that Haruhi is going to have different perspectives on most of the Brigade, but her reaction to Mikuru still seems, I don't know, maybe a little too harsh. I don't know if Kyon could make it clear that she's not the same as the Alt!Mikuru, but then again he doesn't know if it's an act or not either. I could see Haruhi trying to help Mikuru -- assuming Mikuru wants help -- in order for her not to turn into the kind of Mikuru Big that Kyon is so distrustful of, but that kind of leaves a loose thread hanging where you probably don't want one.
I'm not positive if it all came through-- But Kyon was implied to have narrated the original novels to her (tired, old joke, but I figured it was better than having him _write_ them). In there is a rather jealousy-inspiring amount of Mikuru-admiration, so that's a factor, too. >_>;;
I don't want it to feel off, but Haruhi was given a really bad impression of her. Hmm. I suppose this does leave off potentially putting her in a bad spot. I can try and tweak it a bit-- Have Haruhi consider what she'd done to Mikuru (in both worlds), and really dedicate herself to trying to develop the same honesty with Mikuru as she has with Kyon.... But that was also a pretty harsh burn for Haruhi to deal with, so I'm not sure.
I'll have to think about that for a bit.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMOne thing that only occurs to me now is why Kyon would even bring Asakura back. I know that she's the primary catalyst here for the actual sit down and talk portion that leads to the denouement, but you'd think that after having not one but two versions of her try to get all stabby that he'd be reluctant to ever see another version of her ever again. I guess that you could pass it off as him wishing that Haruhi could have gone through the exact same scenario, and thus she was made since that was one of the requirements, but that's something that might make Kyon even guiltier all things considered. Without her though it becomes a huge problem of just what happens to motivate the story to an endpoint.
Er, that second-to-last sentence. That actually is exactly what I was going for -- Kyon didn't think (while he was in the clubroom with Haruhi), "I'm angry and going to have a knee-jerk reaction (but pause to exclude one specific threat)." Instead -- though, this may need a revision in chapter six, if it's really an issue -- he want, "I'm angry, but I don't want to hurt anyone, so I'm going to have a knee-jerk reaction (with provisos that if Things Go Wrong, I'll be able to stop them).
And I thought it was plenty clear in chapter six that Haruhi's life being threatened (because of something Kyon did) was precisely why he felt so guilty? I'll sleep on that-- If it has to be made clearer, that can be done.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 03:30:28 AMI like the overall arc of the story, and I feel the ending is well placed and deals with the ramifications of Haruhi realizing her power well, as well as to how a relationship between her and Kyon as equals would play out. I realize that this must have been extremely difficult to write, and I feel you've done it justice with your implementation.
Ah, now you're flattering me. >_>;;
I put a lot of effort into the ending and didn't have a lot of confidence in it, so that means a lot to me. :)
Thanks for the feedback, Grahf, I really appreciate it. :D
Here's 7.0.1, which contains some minor corrections. (Inevitably, I will spot 5-6 errors
immediately after posting. >_<)
Edit: Erg. YAML tags are still there, sorry; forgot to strip them out for SRposting. ...may be lazy and just leave them in, as the website will stop working if I forget to put them back. :x
Re: the Traveller thing. The 15,000 worlds just seemed to resonate with that for some reason. Can't put my finger on why.
I thought that Haruhi's thought process involving splitting her powers rather than getting rid of them flowed naturally. It was indeed a suspenseful moment when I thought that Haruhi might be giving up the entirety of her powers, but I was also a little lost. Granted, re-reading it you can't really make it much clearer without hammering the audience in the head with it by having Kyon just outright state "No Haruhi, don't give up your power!" which would just be heavy handed.
Regarding Mikuru, I knew that you were going for a "Kyon tells Haruhi the contents of the books" stuff, but I was perhaps expecting some self censoring there. It makes more sense though that he's honest about everything, rather than trying to downplay what he felt at the time.
I feel as though it was a double-edged blade. It's nearly impossible in this situation to make both Haruhi and Mikuru sympathetic to the same degree, and because Haruhi is the more important character she honestly should receive the sympathy. For Mikuru it would take Haruhi and Kyon both divorcing her from her alt!self which is something they are incapable of doing since neither they nor we know just how much of Mikuru moe-moe is an act and to what extent she is being manipulated by herself and others around her.
Regarding Asakura. Perhaps even just a line, something like "If I'd have known that doing this would have brought in Asakura (or just 'that deranged girl') again" sometime during his first apology it might go a long way towards both enforcing his guilt over the situation and also giving just enough explanation as to why she showed up again without outright stating that it was something that Kyon honestly hadn't thought of.
The serious discussion at the center of the last chapter flows well, and ties most threads together, making the final scene a natural point to end the story. The story as a whole stays fairly well together, and is concise enough considering the intended scope.
I don't still understand why Nagato tried to stab Kyon in the prologue, or even which Nagato that was.
Haruhi's reaction to the revelation doesn't appear to make any sense in the light of things she knows at that point, doesn't feel at all like Haruhi to me, and actually negates all the sympathy that she had managed to gain in my eyes during the story. I can't see what gives her the permission - or even reason when one considers the prologue - to slap Kyon on the face in anger, and that she does it anyway suggests that she's actually a worse person than before.
I can't understand Kyon's rationale for making the alternate!Nagato a special case based on the events of Disappearance. This Nagato here is neither that Nagato nor the real one, and having her around won't provide any solace to either.
Haruhi's suggestion that all the Endless Eight episodes were actually separate universes has potentially very serious ramifications, depending on exactly what their relation is to the base universe, but this issue is not explored at all, and both Haruhi and Kyon talk about it as if it were a good thing.
It is a positive thing that they decided to try and fix things together; however, it isn't at all self-evident that the solution is workable -- though addressing that properly would require another story at least as long as this one.
Stuff
QuoteI don't still understand why Nagato tried to stab Kyon in the prologue, or even which Nagato that was.
I was never too clear on this myself, but I attributed it to something like - As soon as Kyon gets the power, it goes haywire, with every stray thought and emotion going out of control, and he has to forcibly reign it in. The Nagato was just a byproduct of that, or something.
Quote
Haruhi's reaction to the revelation doesn't appear to make any sense in the light of things she knows at that point, doesn't feel at all like Haruhi to me, and actually negates all the sympathy that she had managed to gain in my eyes during the story. I can't see what gives her the permission - or even reason when one considers the prologue - to slap Kyon on the face in anger, and that she does it anyway suggests that she's actually a worse person than before.
I thought it meshed well with Haruhi, but that's my opinion. As for the slap -- Kyon putting Haruhi through all of that was still kind of a dick move, even if it all turned out better in the end, and it's clear he regrets making such a hasty decision and feels pretty terrible about it. And Haruhi regrets the slap pretty quickly too, even if he did kind of deserve it. At least, that's the way I see things.
QuoteI can't understand Kyon's rationale for making the alternate!Nagato a special case based on the events of Disappearance. This Nagato here is neither that Nagato nor the real one, and having her around won't provide any solace to either.
He probably wants to avoid a http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DreamApocalypse .
Anyway, I really enjoyed the story overall, and am glad I got to read it. It started off a little slow and confusing, but grew into something pretty awesome. I laughed my ass off when Kyon started re-narrating the novels. (God, he must've been talking for hours.)
I could probably say more, but my brain seems to be failing me at the moment. Great job, or something. Let's go with that.
Sorry for being distracted away from commenting on the latter part of the writing process. I wouldn't worry
that much about the technical stuff of the universes and Haruhi's powers and what not -- the questions being raised are prominent enough to add significant tension to the final chapter, but whatever inconsistencies you're worried about are buried in the background rather than being immediately obvious. In general, the epilogue does a good job of directing the casual reader's attention away from the purely technical questions (which could probably spawn a discussion thread equivalent to
reams of paper before they were resolved to satisfaction) and towards the characters. Which is, after all, the point of the ultimate payoff.
To address one concern of Brian's, Haruhi backsliding in the prologue, even relative to novel 11, is (cosmic irony) the one thing which
didn't initially confuse/irk me when I first saw the story, since it was both obvious and essential to the setup, and thus worthy of just suspending disbelief.
The ending turned out to be a neat thought experiment -- things don't work out as neatly as in other
Haruhi realizes her powers fics that I read, since Kyon and Haruhi are now getting thrown into this whole other dilemma...
So, congratulations on persevering to finish this!
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
Haruhi's suggestion that all the Endless Eight episodes were actually separate universes has potentially very serious ramifications, depending on exactly what their relation is to the base universe, but this issue is not explored at all, and both Haruhi and Kyon talk about it as if it were a good thing.
I'm guessing they're considering it preferable to a situation where... let me put it this way, having created 15,000 extra universes is probably preferable to having erased 15,000 universes (or, less extremely, having erased everyone's memories 15,000 times).
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
I don't still understand why Nagato tried to stab Kyon in the prologue, or even which Nagato that was.
This... didn't seem that oblique to me, although I do discuss these with Brian a fair bit on IRC so I might be a little biased. It's original!Nagato, and the IDSE detected the shift in control of the powers and is acting to try to eliminate Kyon before he can take them out (since he's already declared himself in open opposition to them). I read it as the IDSE assuming direct control of Yuki's interface/body and attempting to kill Kyon with it, and Kyon reacts by severing their control and returning Yuki to where she was.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
Haruhi's reaction to the revelation doesn't appear to make any sense in the light of things she knows at that point, doesn't feel at all like Haruhi to me, and actually negates all the sympathy that she had managed to gain in my eyes during the story. I can't see what gives her the permission - or even reason when one considers the prologue - to slap Kyon on the face in anger, and that she does it anyway suggests that she's actually a worse person than before.
I... tend to disagree here. Haruhi is not an entirely rational person (neither is Kyon) and she's just been through a hell of an experience, which she can lay solely at the feet of Kyon - so she simply reacts out of anger without stopping to consider all the ramifications or getting all the facts. That actually seems very much like Haruhi to me - going off half-cocked is definitely something I see as a part of her character.
Once she stops to consider and -does- get the full story (that Kyon wasn't just sitting back and snickering at her floundering through his life), she does feel remorse for hitting him, which is where that initial growth is shown. She's better than she started out, but she's by no means perfect.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
I can't understand Kyon's rationale for making the alternate!Nagato a special case based on the events of Disappearance. This Nagato here is neither that Nagato nor the real one, and having her around won't provide any solace to either.
I'd again chalk this up to him simply acting irrationally. "I destroyed Nagato before, I don't want to do it again." It doesn't logically make any difference, you're right, but he's not acting out of logic here - he's horrified at the thought of doing it again, and simply wants to avoid it no matter what - whether it makes sense or not.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PM
Haruhi's suggestion that all the Endless Eight episodes were actually separate universes has potentially very serious ramifications, depending on exactly what their relation is to the base universe, but this issue is not explored at all, and both Haruhi and Kyon talk about it as if it were a good thing.
I don't really see them viewing it as a good thing? Haruhi's using it more as a way to relate to Kyon's situation, and because of that they both admit that they've screwed up and have some work to do to fix it. The only 'good' part of it is that it's a common ground between them, where they both feel like they can easily understand the other's motivations.
I think we can drop spoilers now.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 06:04:49 AMRe: the Traveller thing. The 15,000 worlds just seemed to resonate with that for some reason. Can't put my finger on why.
Huh. No, that was a reference to Endless Eight.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 06:04:49 AMI thought that Haruhi's thought process involving splitting her powers rather than getting rid of them flowed naturally. It was indeed a suspenseful moment when I thought that Haruhi might be giving up the entirety of her powers, but I was also a little lost. Granted, re-reading it you can't really make it much clearer without hammering the audience in the head with it by having Kyon just outright state "No Haruhi, don't give up your power!" which would just be heavy handed.
Alright. Then I'll let that one go.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 06:04:49 AMRegarding Mikuru, I knew that you were going for a "Kyon tells Haruhi the contents of the books" stuff, but I was perhaps expecting some self censoring there. It makes more sense though that he's honest about everything, rather than trying to downplay what he felt at the time.
I feel as though it was a double-edged blade. It's nearly impossible in this situation to make both Haruhi and Mikuru sympathetic to the same degree, and because Haruhi is the more important character she honestly should receive the sympathy. For Mikuru it would take Haruhi and Kyon both divorcing her from her alt!self which is something they are incapable of doing since neither they nor we know just how much of Mikuru moe-moe is an act and to what extent she is being manipulated by herself and others around her.
Right, so ... I'm not entirely sure of what to do.
Quote from: Grahf on February 01, 2012, 06:04:49 AMRegarding Asakura. Perhaps even just a line, something like "If I'd have known that doing this would have brought in Asakura (or just 'that deranged girl') again" sometime during his first apology it might go a long way towards both enforcing his guilt over the situation and also giving just enough explanation as to why she showed up again without outright stating that it was something that Kyon honestly hadn't thought of.
I'm ... not certain? I kind of feel that all of what you want spelled out is already implied heavily enough. Ah-- Reviewers, in general, thoughts on this? I'm not sure how to proceed.
QuoteRegarding Asakura. Perhaps even just a line, something like "If I'd have known that doing this would have brought in Asakura (or just 'that deranged girl') again" sometime during his first apology it might go a long way towards both enforcing his guilt over the situation and also giving just enough explanation as to why she showed up again without outright stating that it was something that Kyon honestly hadn't thought of.
QuoteI'm ... not certain? I kind of feel that all of what you want spelled out is already implied heavily enough. Ah-- Reviewers, in general, thoughts on this? I'm not sure how to proceed.
My impression was that it was more of a mistake, and Kyon doesn't really know how to use the power all that well. (It's not like it comes with an instruction manual or anything.) Something like -- Gets angry, sets up the scenario, realizes "oh fuck, Asakura!", it's too late to change it, so he sets up a failsafe.
At least that's one way of looking at it.
Yeah, this strikes me as him making a broad stroke ('have Haruhi live through what I went through at the beginning of the year'), just with an extra failsafe that he'd jump in if she was in danger of getting hurt. I suspect that he wasn't even thinking about Asakura when he set the idea up.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMThe serious discussion at the center of the last chapter flows well, and ties most threads together, making the final scene a natural point to end the story. The story as a whole stays fairly well together, and is concise enough considering the intended scope.
Good to hear.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMI don't still understand why Nagato tried to stab Kyon in the prologue, or even which Nagato that was.
Hal explains it exactly. However, you weren't the only one to get tripped up by that.
Also, now that I look back, the idea that the IDSE could just 'take over' Yuki like that kind of diminishes the seeming independance she's worked for in the canon. I think it's not problematic to drop that and just make the movement of the chair significant enough that Haruhi latches onto that as the 'obvious supernatural event'.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMHaruhi's reaction to the revelation doesn't appear to make any sense in the light of things she knows at that point, doesn't feel at all like Haruhi to me, and actually negates all the sympathy that she had managed to gain in my eyes during the story. I can't see what gives her the permission - or even reason when one considers the prologue - to slap Kyon on the face in anger, and that she does it anyway suggests that she's actually a worse person than before.
O...oh.... Well-- Halbarad summarizes what I was intending with that. My concern is that if Haruhi doesn't have
some moment like that, she comes across as practically a saint. She is human and has failings-- Otherwise, she's pretty much just the perfect being, and that really defeats the point of Haruhi and Kyon finding any sort of balance between them.
*sigh*
Um ... what about Haruhi winding up to slap him and catching herself before she does it? Can that work?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMI can't understand Kyon's rationale for making the alternate!Nagato a special case based on the events of Disappearance. This Nagato here is neither that Nagato nor the real one, and having her around won't provide any solace to either.
Kyon feels terrible about what he's done and doesn't want to hurt anyone else. Yuki happened to be in the room when he was done dealing with Asakura and trying to take responsibility for his mistakes.
I can have Haruhi ask him directly why she was brought along-- I suppose it would play to Haruhi's chapter three reveal to be somewhat uncertain around this Yuki, so she could even be slightly wary. Kyon could then stutteringly try and explain that he's hurt versions of her in the past, and wanted to make sure that this one wasn't hurt, too.
Is that sufficient?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMHaruhi's suggestion that all the Endless Eight episodes were actually separate universes has potentially very serious ramifications, depending on exactly what their relation is to the base universe, but this issue is not explored at all, and both Haruhi and Kyon talk about it as if it were a good thing.
Er-- Sorry, you
may be reading a bit too much into that. It's more that Haruhi doesn't like the idea of erasing people. Even if it was just time being reset and they weren't alternate worlds, the hope was that they could find a way to go back (the power has no limitations) and turn each of those 'erased' worlds into their own separate copies that just go their own ways from that point on.
Elaborating on this too much raises more questions (does that mean this story's events happen in each of those worlds? Do each of them go back and do the same thing, making n-1 new universes per iteration of the loop? Are these other universes aware of the one?).
I want to end on the most optimistic note possible, where Haruhi and Kyon's resolve to fix the 'damage they've done' represents their resolve to be and work together. The goal was to make it much more obvious here (as compared to, say,
Hot Air), that Haruhi and Kyon love one-another (and both understand it) without simply declaring it. (Well, that was one goal, anyway.)
Are you able to accept that? Is there some form of compromise we can reach where the story can have what we both believe is a positive ending? Or -- both in real life and in the story -- am I just being too optimistic?
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMIt is a positive thing that they decided to try and fix things together; however, it isn't at all self-evident that the solution is workable -- though addressing that properly would require another story at least as long as this one.
At least one positive thing in all of this. But I think.... You didn't like it, did you? Curses. :(
I'll consider it
less of a failure, then, since I at least managed not to squick you (much) this time. -_-
Okay-- If it's not too much, if you read this far, presumably you believed there would be a satisfactory ending. Can I ask what you might have expected that to be? I don't know if I'm able to throw away what I've done here, but I would really like to know what you were hoping for. At least it will make things clearer for me in the future.
I'm really sorry I'm so slow to figure all of this out. >_<
Thanks for the reply; I appreciate your comments. :)
I need to rest; today was exhausting at work; I'm afraid this is all of the replies I can manage for today-- But if I hold true to form, I expect insomnia will kick me out of bed in an unreasonably short period to finish replying to the rest. Thanks to everyone who's replied, since I realize I've been very poor about thanking people for their input! I really appreciate it. ^_^
Quote from: Brian on February 01, 2012, 11:22:04 PM
O...oh.... Well-- Halbarad summarizes what I was intending with that. My concern is that if Haruhi doesn't have some moment like that, she comes across as practically a saint. She is human and has failings-- Otherwise, she's pretty much just the perfect being, and that really defeats the point of Haruhi and Kyon finding any sort of balance between them.
Um ... what about Haruhi winding up to slap him and catching herself before she does it? Can that work?
One of Haruhi's most obvious traits is that she gets very physical and rough when she's playful, and (on the surface) calm and measured when angry. Lashing out verbally could be expected (but still not justified), violence not so, especially considering that the events that she just went through are exactly what she was wishing in the prologue and thus the person who's ultimately responsible is she herself. I just can't see her even trying to hit Kyon, but I seem to be in a very tiny minority here, so please feel free to ignore anything that I say.
Quote from: Brian on February 01, 2012, 11:22:04 PM
I can have Haruhi ask him directly why she was brought along-- I suppose it would play to Haruhi's chapter three reveal to be somewhat uncertain around this Yuki, so she could even be slightly wary. Kyon could then stutteringly try and explain that he's hurt versions of her in the past, and wanted to make sure that this one wasn't hurt, too.
Is that sufficient?
It's not rational but it's understandable. Yes, Kyon might do that. ^_^
Quote from: Brian on February 01, 2012, 11:22:04 PMElaborating on this too much raises more questions (does that mean this story's events happen in each of those worlds? Do each of them go back and do the same thing, making n-1 new universes per iteration of the loop? Are these other universes aware of the one?).
I want to end on the most optimistic note possible, where Haruhi and Kyon's resolve to fix the 'damage they've done' represents their resolve to be and work together. The goal was to make it much more obvious here (as compared to, say, Hot Air), that Haruhi and Kyon love one-another (and both understand it) without simply declaring it. (Well, that was one goal, anyway.)
Are you able to accept that? Is there some form of compromise we can reach where the story can have what we both believe is a positive ending?
Oh, I do believe that the ending is positive, the only real issue is the slap that felt like ... a slap on the face, to be honest. The rest is that instead of a 'happy' ending it's more like "we've messed up badly and aren't even sure in which ways exactly, but let's at least try to fix things from now on -- together". I was just suspecting that the mess is rather more severe than the ending would suggest.
So I came into this with a bit of a different expectation. The prologue is clear--that Kyon has conscious control of Haruhi's powers before things get Freaky Friday'd and all. Originally, I didn't process all of that, and I had the conception that
Haruhi had set all this up instead of Kyon. Granted, Kyon knows Haruhi's significance and is actually in a position to exact this sort of lesson on her, so it's all more logical, but it feels a bit vindictive or perhaps even reckless of Kyon to put her through. Such recklessness we expect from Haruhi. From Kyon, it comes off differently.
But I'm making issue out of my own misconception, so feel free to disregard that. On to the actual story.
I did notice the slap on my first read through, and I felt a bit torn about it. Has Haruhi learned anything, or hasn't she? It may be the timing of it. It comes right after Haruhi seems to forgive or understand Kyon, realizing he didn't play with powers. She just jumps back into angry mode very quickly.
In the same vein, the kiss feels a little sudden also. Haruhi realizes her attraction to Kyon, but it's disjointed from the action she takes based on it--there are bits in-between where she's hard on herself for not believing Kyon and justifies how he would give up trying to convince her of the truth. I think, when these are put together, it feles like there should be one more step between realization and the kiss--a part where she fears that just as Kyon had given up telling her the truth, he gave up pursuing her, too? Maybe not exactly that, but it would fit with what's there, and it gives Haruhi a more concrete reason to kiss him (hoping to find part of him that might love her back?).
Kyon seems a bit frazzled when he admits having erased Disappearance Land to Haruhi--or at least, too frazzled too quickly? I'm not sure how to describe it. His description that he "screwed up" before surprised me. I do feel it's something he'd regret, but he's suggesting he made a mistake when I can't see how there were any other options.
Just out of curiosity, was there a particular bit you had in mind referring to flirting in 7? I want to reread that part, but I'm not sure what it refers to.
Quote"I'm not going to do anything stupid," I assure him, trying that smile again-- He settles almost instantly. Yeah ... stupid power. I bet without it clearing so many obstacles from my path, I would have learned that all it really took to reach him was just being freaking nice about things much sooner! Come to think of it -- that's exactly what I was starting to realize just before running into Ryouko.
She seemed to refer to her as Asakura if only one name was called for in chapter six.
QuoteAnd ... Mikuru. Mikuru's absolutely getting her personal space from me, from now on-- I want to learn more about who our Mikuru really is, just like the others. With her, though.... With her it's probably going to be hard to be friends, considering that even Kyon admits it's hard to trust her future self. Thinking of what her older self told Kyon, I guess she doesn't hang around us much in the future ... or Kyon changes a whole lot.
Or Kyon changes a lot?
All in all, though the ending requires a lot of careful thinking on Haruhi and Kyon's part, I think they come to a good solution. My main concern, however, is that this predicament about doing right by many worlds only becomes known and is resolved in this chapter alone. It's a logical conclusion to the story, but it doesn't feel like a thematic one. I'm not sure what can be done about that, though. It reminds me a little bit of what Arakawa had to say about
The Coin's epilogue when it still had too much new stuff thrown in concerning older Haruhi.
That said, the most important thing is that Haruhi's learned something and come to an understanding with Kyon. That
was the overarching impetus, and it is resolved admirably. I think this is a unique solution--sharing power--and that's a big strength of the ending.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 02, 2012, 12:49:03 AMOne of Haruhi's most obvious traits is that she gets very physical and rough when she's playful, and (on the surface) calm and measured when angry. Lashing out verbally could be expected (but still not justified), violence not so, especially considering that the events that she just went through are exactly what she was wishing in the prologue and thus the person who's ultimately responsible is she herself. I just can't see her even trying to hit Kyon, but I seem to be in a very tiny minority here, so please feel free to ignore anything that I say.
Oh, insomnia.
Um, Sarsaparilla-- Is that Haruhi, or you, there?
Because Haruhi's reaction (as I percieved it) was not precisely calm or measured any time I can recall when she's been angry. The most obvious was
Sigh, naturally-- That's an angry Haruhi. I can't....
...okay. Not arguing the point.
Alright. Haruhi doesn't tend to be violent. (I see Muphrid disagreed with that aspect, too.)
Her reaction will be entirely verbal, then. I'll need a bit to put together a new approach for that. It's probably not a huge revision, but it's daunting enough at the moment I don't believe I'll be able to do it tonight.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 02, 2012, 12:49:03 AMIt's not rational but it's understandable. Yes, Kyon might do that. ^_^
Okay.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 02, 2012, 12:49:03 AMOh, I do believe that the ending is positive, the only real issue is the slap that felt like ... a slap on the face, to be honest. The rest is that instead of a 'happy' ending it's more like "we've messed up badly and aren't even sure in which ways exactly, but let's at least try to fix things from now on -- together". I was just suspecting that the mess is rather more severe than the ending would suggest.
As above, then.
Quote from: Oroboro on February 01, 2012, 08:06:48 PMQuoteI don't still understand why Nagato tried to stab Kyon in the prologue, or even which Nagato that was.
I was never too clear on this myself, but I attributed it to something like - As soon as Kyon gets the power, it goes haywire, with every stray thought and emotion going out of control, and he has to forcibly reign it in. The Nagato was just a byproduct of that, or something.
Yeah -- that'll be removed in the next draft.
Huh. I'm making a 4Kids version of the fic -- all the violence removed.
Ryouko: All of it? :D
All of the unjustified violence anyway.
Ryouko: >_<
Quote from: Oroboro on February 01, 2012, 08:06:48 PMAnyway, I really enjoyed the story overall, and am glad I got to read it. It started off a little slow and confusing, but grew into something pretty awesome. I laughed my ass off when Kyon started re-narrating the novels. (God, he must've been talking for hours.)
Glad you enjoyed it-- Thanks for the comments.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on February 01, 2012, 08:18:13 PMSorry for being distracted away from commenting on the latter part of the writing process.
Entirely understandable; when inspiration hits me, the chapters can come very quickly.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on February 01, 2012, 08:18:13 PMI wouldn't worry that much about the technical stuff of the universes and Haruhi's powers and what not -- the questions being raised are prominent enough to add significant tension to the final chapter, but whatever inconsistencies you're worried about are buried in the background rather than being immediately obvious. In general, the epilogue does a good job of directing the casual reader's attention away from the purely technical questions (which could probably spawn a discussion thread equivalent to reams of paper before they were resolved to satisfaction) and towards the characters. Which is, after all, the point of the ultimate payoff.
Probably, yeah. All of which is moot given Haruhi's power doesn't really have limits, anyway. At least, that we know of.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on February 01, 2012, 08:18:13 PMThe ending turned out to be a neat thought experiment -- things don't work out as neatly as in other Haruhi realizes her powers fics that I read, since Kyon and Haruhi are now getting thrown into this whole other dilemma...
Not as neatly? Do you mean closing with the note of, "still work to do"?
I'm alright with that if the most critical character relationships (the main focal point, here) work well enough.
Quote from: Arakawa Seijio on February 01, 2012, 08:18:13 PMQuote from: sarsaparilla on February 01, 2012, 07:17:18 PMHaruhi's suggestion that all the Endless Eight episodes were actually separate universes has potentially very serious ramifications, depending on exactly what their relation is to the base universe, but this issue is not explored at all, and both Haruhi and Kyon talk about it as if it were a good thing.
I'm guessing they're considering it preferable to a situation where... let me put it this way, having created 15,000 extra universes is probably preferable to having erased 15,000 universes (or, less extremely, having erased everyone's memories 15,000 times).
That's what I was aiming for, yes. I'll see if I can try to make that a bit clearer without skirting too close to that technical nightmare I don't really want the story to descend into.
Thanks for the commentary, Arakawa.
Quote from: Oroboro on February 01, 2012, 10:48:32 PMMy impression was that it was more of a mistake, and Kyon doesn't really know how to use the power all that well. (It's not like it comes with an instruction manual or anything.) Something like -- Gets angry, sets up the scenario, realizes "oh fuck, Asakura!", it's too late to change it, so he sets up a failsafe.
At least that's one way of looking at it.
Hmm. Except there's no such thing as 'too late' with that power. Hal has it right (naturally, because we discussed this a lot in IRC, so he has something of an information bias as to my intentions):
Quote from: Halbarad on February 01, 2012, 10:57:16 PMYeah, this strikes me as him making a broad stroke ('have Haruhi live through what I went through at the beginning of the year'), just with an extra failsafe that he'd jump in if she was in danger of getting hurt. I suspect that he wasn't even thinking about Asakura when he set the idea up.
So -- I will have Kyon be clearer about this between chapters six and seven. I thought the 'failsafe' line was fairly clear, but more clarity probably wouldn't hurt.
(This thread is becoming my 'revision to-do' list....)
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMSo I came into this with a bit of a different expectation. The prologue is clear--that Kyon has conscious control of Haruhi's powers before things get Freaky Friday'd and all. Originally, I didn't process all of that, and I had the conception that Haruhi had set all this up instead of Kyon. Granted, Kyon knows Haruhi's significance and is actually in a position to exact this sort of lesson on her, so it's all more logical, but it feels a bit vindictive or perhaps even reckless of Kyon to put her through. Such recklessness we expect from Haruhi. From Kyon, it comes off differently.
But I'm making issue out of my own misconception, so feel free to disregard that. On to the actual story.
On the meta level, it could easily be seen as Haruhi's doing:
What did Kyon do with her powers? Exactly what she wanted.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMI did notice the slap on my first read through, and I felt a bit torn about it. Has Haruhi learned anything, or hasn't she? It may be the timing of it. It comes right after Haruhi seems to forgive or understand Kyon, realizing he didn't play with powers. She just jumps back into angry mode very quickly.
The slap will be pulled in the next revision. It'll just be angry words, and not many before her concern for Kyon's guilt overshadows that.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMIn the same vein, the kiss feels a little sudden also. Haruhi realizes her attraction to Kyon, but it's disjointed from the action she takes based on it--there are bits in-between where she's hard on herself for not believing Kyon and justifies how he would give up trying to convince her of the truth. I think, when these are put together, it feles like there should be one more step between realization and the kiss--a part where she fears that just as Kyon had given up telling her the truth, he gave up pursuing her, too? Maybe not exactly that, but it would fit with what's there, and it gives Haruhi a more concrete reason to kiss him (hoping to find part of him that might love her back?).
I think it would be more that when he's in the depths of his self-recrimination, she can instead use it to pull him back. I'll have to see where things go from the revision without the slap.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMKyon seems a bit frazzled when he admits having erased Disappearance Land to Haruhi--or at least, too frazzled too quickly? I'm not sure how to describe it. His description that he "screwed up" before surprised me. I do feel it's something he'd regret, but he's suggesting he made a mistake when I can't see how there were any other options.
You can take the best option in a bad situation and still not feel good about it. This was based off lines in the novels about him occasionally having nightmares about what happened in the Disappearance-verse.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMJust out of curiosity, was there a particular bit you had in mind referring to flirting in 7? I want to reread that part, but I'm not sure what it refers to.
The epilogue-- The very first lines:
Quote from: Book 7The next day, after just making it to school on time I barged into the classroom, and ignoring
Taniguchi looking grumpy and Kunikida chatting with other classmates, I sat down and began
flirting with the person behind me,
"Hey, how's it going?"
"I'm fine, of course!"
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMShe seemed to refer to her as Asakura if only one name was called for in chapter six.
My error, not hers.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMQuoteThinking of what her older self told Kyon, I guess she doesn't hang around us much in the future ... or Kyon changes a whole lot.
Or Kyon changes a lot?
Hey-- That's exactly what was suggested to justify the discrepancy in
The Coin between Mikuru's dialogue in
Melancholy and your ending, wasn't it?
Eh-- Not important, actually. I'll just drop the entire clause after the ellipses.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMAll in all, though the ending requires a lot of careful thinking on Haruhi and Kyon's part, I think they come to a good solution. My main concern, however, is that this predicament about doing right by many worlds only becomes known and is resolved in this chapter alone.
Yes, but until this chapter there's no in-character knowledge of other worlds to really develop that. I don't know how else I might address that-- But the issue isn't resolved, anyway; the ending is about them realizing they've got a daunting task for themselves, not actually fixing things before the final line. They agreed they
would fix things (and with the power, it's really hard to see them not pulling it off -- though I wanted to emphasize a reliance on their other friends, as well), but they hadn't even actually started in this chapter.
Quote from: Muphrid on February 02, 2012, 02:42:41 AMThat said, the most important thing is that Haruhi's learned something and come to an understanding with Kyon. That was the overarching impetus, and it is resolved admirably. I think this is a unique solution--sharing power--and that's a big strength of the ending.
Okay-- Glad to hear that it seems some of the most critical parts worked worked.
I might need some time to get the next draft out. Thanks for the feedback, Muphrid.
This honestly might be way off base, but might you consider having Yuki intercept earlier, to stop the first slap. I know that it might be a little difficult to write, and still has the implication that Haruhi would have hit Kyon otherwise, but I also think that it draws a parallel to the one time that Kyon had to be stopped from hitting Haruhi.
Kyon obviously wasn't in his right mind in that situation and Koizumi had to stop him from doing something he would have regretted for a multitude of reasons afterwards; I could see how Haruhi would go for a slap, only to be stopped, get angry, but then realize that he's already suffering as it is. Whether that still leads to a kiss or something different is totally dependant on you, but I thought that this sort of scenario playing out would be something to consider.
If my proposed compromise of Haruhi catching herself from striking Kyon wasn't adequate, Yuki catching her won't be, either. :/
And this is't like Sigh...; I don't particulalry want to evoke that.
Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 02, 2012, 12:49:03 AMOh, I do believe that the ending is positive, the only real issue is the slap that felt like ... a slap on the face, to be honest. The rest is that instead of a 'happy' ending it's more like "we've messed up badly and aren't even sure in which ways exactly, but let's at least try to fix things from now on -- together". I was just suspecting that the mess is rather more severe than the ending would suggest.
I wasn't in an ideal state to catch this last night-- I asked some questions I guess you don't want to answer, but I have to try one last time:
What can be done to make it 'happy'?
Quote from: Brian on February 02, 2012, 10:59:30 AM
If my proposed compromise of Haruhi catching herself from striking Kyon wasn't adequate, Yuki catching her won't be, either. :/
And this is't like Sigh...; I don't particulalry want to evoke that.
Fair enough.
It's kind of distressing to see you struggling with this to such a great extent. I know that at this point you've decided not to have her become physically violent, but I felt that the slap wasn't misplaced given the circumstances. I mean, yes Haruhi is the kind of person that gets quiet and brooding when she's unhappy, but at this point her mindset is that this was entirely Kyon just sitting back with full awareness watching her flail around and be generally distressed and then almost die. You can't honestly expect someone who's been through all of that to be completely reasonable, or even willing to stop for a moment and consider that their actions might not be the best idea given the circumstances.
It is your work of course, and how it ultimately ends up is your choice, but I think that to a great extent that you're giving yourself undue stress. I know this is probably coming off as
really preachy, and I apologize for that, but I felt it needed to be said.
After the last day, I don't honestly feel any emotional investment in the work. It all blew away somehow, and now it's just a thing.
I'm only able to look at it from a purely technical standpoint because what was most important to me about it failed. I really need to rely on input from others to figure out where it goes from here, since I'm personally burnt out on it.
But I think I should sleep first.
Brian, the problem is that all the icky stuff is crammed in the last chapter, and it takes the focus away from what should be the most important issue, i.e., Haruhi's and Kyon's relationship and how the latest events have affected it. There are only two directions in which the unfortunate implications can be pushed. If they could be handled during the actual story there would have to be at least another Endless Eight and Disappearance, and that is not feasible with the given scope. The other direction is to push them forward, to the unwritten but implied part of the story, and I believe that it could be done without excessive effort, just by refocusing the final discussion from the implications into the relationship itself.
If Kyon and Haruhi compared their respective experiences through dialogue, they could both find a closer connection to each other and more easily accept the ordeal ... as in feeling sympathy for each other when they see that they have indeed walked a mile in each other's shoes. Second, more than deep philosophical questions concerning the nature of parallel worlds Kyon should be worrying about future in general, as the whole canon is based on the idea that untold misfortune will follow if Haruhi ever becomes aware of the powers and therefore she must be kept in dark. Well, now the cat is out of the bag and Kyon has a very good reason to be concerned about that, which gives them an opportunity to express trust in each other -- that together they will overcome whatever difficulties there are ahead. The unfortunate implications could be pretty much left out of the discussion, and only mentioned in passing, as in Kyon noticing how fine a mess they've managed to get themselves into this time. However, when that is said after assuring that they will find a way, somehow, to set it right, the final note can be significantly more upbeat and positive.
Other than that I ... seem to have a singularly negative influence on this whole thread, which means that I should remove myself from any further discussions. My apologies for any harm done. -_-
Okay. Apologies for the drama.
It took some serious searching, but I believe I found the compromise to finish this (and mostly recovered from the depression).
(Aside, the criticism: "This is really a bit overambitious," would really have explained things in a simple way that didn't also exacerbate my self-loathing.)
So-- Haruhi can't slap Kyon, touching on the alternate worlds at all is too much, Yuki shouldn't be taken over by the IDSE in the prologue, etc. etc.
I think I can just simplify the ending even further -- cut Yuki out, too; she's not needed to stop the slap, and evidently some people didn't like her being there (I can see that she didn't add much to the final scene, I guess) -- and present about ... half of chapter seven as an epilogue. They can leave off with the vow to fix things without going into details. They were never that critical anyway, and I can see how it's a shift.
This leaves the ending open for me to take as optimistically as I originally liked, and someone else to see it as something they might appreciate.
Thoughts?
The slap might have been a bit much, but it is Haruhi, and she's rather physical, so it didn't trigger any alerts from me. But, I tend to take a lot w/o many alerts.
If you're getting rid of the alternate worlds, then getting rid of Yuki is fine as well. The original idea of "multiple worlds = multiple guilt for kyon" can logically lead into keeping Yuki around, but without that basis, yeah, she's a bit out of place.
These thoughts look reasonable to me. I admit, I liked that Kyon had a soft spot for Nagato and wanted to preserve her, but it probably makes the most sense to cut her from that conversation, I agree.
I'll see if there's room for Kyon to mention a soft-spot for Yuki.... Actually, I think I can see how that might work. What about....
Haruhi can read the regret on his face before Kyon takes them to the halfway-house, and put two-and-two together during his narration of the novels (and I still like that aspect a bit). She can understand how he feels and compare it to the way she's seen him look at his sister, so it doesn't come across as romantic interest, and just make a note that Haruhi can sympathize with his feelings and be interested in wanting to help him treat her as a friend. I'm sure someone would comment that this doesn't (directly) do anything for alt!Yuki, but more than that would take away from the intentional ambiguity I'll be striving for.
I've removed Yuki attacking Kyon in the prologue, and also going with Kyon/Haruhi in chapter six.
Plans moving forward:
* Fujisawa makes notes for the rewrite.
<Fujisawa> I wonder if I spend more time rewriting ... than writing?
* Oroboro shrugs
<@Yukari-sama> I don't think you need a large-scale rewrite here, though.
<Oroboro> Makes sense kind of. I mean, when writing you can just transcribe everything that's already in your head, re-writing requires you to analyze everything carefully.
<Fujisawa> Nah. Just trimmed Yuki attacking Kyon out of the prologue.
<Fujisawa> And bringing her along in chapter 6.
* @Yukari-sama nods.
<Fujisawa> I expect most of the chapter 7 revisions will just be cutting out the 'overly optimistic' aspects and leaving them implied instead of stated.
<Oroboro> Am I the only one who didn't see a problem with the slap. Maybe it's just me. >_>
<@Yukari-sama> I don't see an issue with it either.
<@Yukari-sama> From Haruhi's perspective, she (or at least an aspect of her) was on the point of being killed about ten minutes prior, and she's got sufficient evidence to blame it on Kyon.
<@Yukari-sama> I'd slap him too, if it was me. <_<
* Fujisawa actually really liked the knee-jerk slap, and apology kiss; felt true to Haruhi, personally.
<Fujisawa> Is she typically violent? No. But as Yukari-sama says, it felt justified from her perspective.
<Fujisawa> I don't know. Maybe toning it down to thinking really hard about slapping him, but restraining herself because of the power could work, too-- Then it's just harsh words, and the kiss is to lift him up when he's depressed and she finds out the truth.
<@Yukari-sama> Shouldn't be a democratic writing process, but if it was I'd definitely vote towards keeping the slap. Haruhi's extremely impulsive, so stopping to think there seems OOC to me.
<Oroboro> Kyon seemed to think he deserved it too. Everyone makes mistakes, and can do things in anger or in haste that they regret. It's what they do about it after words that really counts
<Fujisawa> Okay.
<@Yukari-sama> Dunno if you still have it, but I'd still stick with my original suggestion. She slaps impulsively, Kyon takes the hit, she's still angry and raises her hand to hit him again, maybe she sees him cringe (but not turn away) and -then- she reconsiders.
<@Yukari-sama> But that's only a maybe. Could be a way of getting that second raised hand to turn into kissing him though.
<Muphrid> I just thought the ordering could be adjusted; she seems to start understanding his perspective, and then she slaps him.
<Fujisawa> So she should slap him first, then start _really_ putting things together and stop herself?
<Fujisawa> That flows.
<Muphrid> I think so?
<@Yukari-sama> Yeah.
<Fujisawa> Okay. I like that.
Okay-- Revisions of prologue, chapters 6, and the epilogue posted.
I think the new epilogue works. Longer than I anticipated; let me know if anything doesn't work.
Edit: Helps if I say where they're posted; check the first post of the thread, sorry. >_<
So, just finished reading this, time for feedback. But first, a correction:
QuoteSpeaking of timelines, I'm not thrilled about the idea of talking with Mikuru so soon ... but running from that won't get us anywhere. It'd be unreasonable not to try and give her the same chance that I want to give Koizumi-kun and Mikuru, anyway.
They want to try to give Mikuru the same chance they're giving Koizumi and Mikuru? Either time travel is involved here or that's just a typo to correct.
Overall, I liked it. Some quibbles, though.
I actually liked the reversal of power in Haruhi and Kyon's relationship. That got me more interested in the story, and I liked seeing Kyon as the Ace instead of Haruhi, and her having to deal with that. That's a good step in building sympathy for Kyon from her perspective, and it's touched on well at the end where she complains about how everything was just given to her. Kyon catching her hand when she goes for his tie was satisfying, and serves to highlight the shift in Ace status to Kyon.
For the first couple of chapters and the last chapter or two was when Haruhi was the most sympathetic for me as a reader. In the middle, the instant she blew off Nagato's interest in the library she stopped being likeable until she was attacked by Asakura. That's probably just because Nagato is such an epic woobie, and Haruhi seemed petty and vindictive toward her after being told that Nagato is an alien. It makes Haruhi come across as a jerk, but that's what she was like in canon so I can't fault you for that. She acted the same way toward Mikuru, but that was a lot more justified since Mikuru is basically a manipulative bitch in this version. It was interesting at first seeing her actually acting on her own instead of just being Haruhi's toy, but that wore thin when it was apparent she wasn't a very nice person. I suppose that contributes to Haruhi's frustration and the conclusion of the story, but jerk!Mikuru isn't something that Kyon had to deal with, so I'm not sure if it really fits the theme of understanding each other's experiences and circumstances better.
I didn't have any issues with Haruhi slapping Kyon. She thought he had put her life in danger basically just for the hell of it, and all this time knew the truth when she didn't and kept it from her. I think it's in character for her and understandable since she just had her fight or flight response kicked into overdrive not thirty seconds before. Restraint just wouldn't make sense at that point. It's still the wrong thing to do, but I think it's an understandable reaction considering her circumstances and state of mind at the time.
Just before the solution of sharing power to act as mutual failsafes was presented, I had a thought about how awesome it would be if they implemented that exact solution to deal with the power imbalance in their relationship. So that was pretty neat, and it addressed one of the issues that's always bothered me a little in the back of my head in the original story. Haruhi isn't in the dark any more, and doesn't have absolute power over Kyon, so a working relationship is actually possible. Side effects include teleporting into compromising positions, but that's funny anyway. :)
Oops-- Yes, that's a typo. It should also be 'thinking' instead of 'speaking. >.<
Mikuru being manipulative and unlikable isn't a direct parallel to Kyon's situation, you're right. Then again, Haruhi's behavior isn't a direct parallel to Kyon's, either. Kyon's generally passive and amiable; at the start of Melancholy, Haruhi's more aggressive and demanding. I don't think there's a way to write something that perfectly reverses their situations, but I felt this was reasonably close while feeling true to their characters.
I personally liked the last chapter/epilogue, because I wanted to show that (even though she's frequently shown as not being able to) Haruhi does grow and learn. She didn't have time in the Melancholy arc, but once she had all her memories returned.... Anyway -- the ideal of a true compromise, and that she'd share the power with Kyon without reservation -- and use that to try and fix tings -- were the most appealing parts of the story for me.
It's a pity I let myself veer into that 'prevent all of the fridge horror' tangent; too much wishful thinking. This ending feels more plausible and grounded, without ruling out the possibility that something like that could happen down the line anyway -- so I'm glad you enjoyed it, as well.
It's a pity that the segments between Yuki's revelation and Asakura's fell flat for you, since that is about half of the story, though. :x
Thanks for the feedback! :)
I think you found a different typo than the one I was alluding to. The sentence seems to imply that they want to give Mikuru the same chance that they gave Mikuru and Koizumi, which is a little weird. I suspect you meant to say Nagato and Koizumi.
But yeah, I kind of had to drag myself through most of the part in the middle (although the bit with Koizumi in closed space was better, since Haruhi wasn't acting out of petty spite), but I figured it would end on a positive note and it would be worth it. Which is was. You've inspired some expectations of happy endings in this reader, so a story that is depressing or has an unsympathetic portrayal of a character in the middle doesn't just get dropped. Faith rewarded once again.
Edit: In a sense that's a failure for a story but a success for the writer. I think if it were just some story I picked up someplace, I'd have lost interest halfway through since it looked like it was heading for a depressing end with Haruhi turning on the brigade or just alienating herself with her vindictiveness and seeming paranoia from Kyon's perspective. Since it was you who was writing it, I went into it with a different set of expectations for the story to redeem itself by the end, which it did. Mixed praise, I suppose.
Er, sorry-- Yes, I caught the typo you referenced, and another in the same line. :p
Hmm. Not sure how to feel about it being readable only because I wrote it. Kind of flattering, but also suggests the story can't stand on its own. Then again, maybe it's a subjective thing.
Likely a subjective thing. I have very little tolerance for depressing stories. If I'm reading one that looks like it's just beating up the viewpoint character (and making her seem like a jerk so she deserves it) I tend to jump ship sooner than most readers would. That's just my personal preference; there's a lot of stuff out there to read, and I don't like to waste time with stories that I don't really enjoy. Sometimes I judge too early. If I know the author tends to have happy endings, I'll read through an awful of lot of stuff I otherwise wouldn't care to.
It's important to remember that reading is often a very whim based activity for folks. Not quite hitting the niche can be a reason for disinterest, even when a story is well conceived within its own structure and well delivered.
</lecturehatyammeryammer>