[Haruhi] The Coin

[Arakawa]

Note: would like to nuance what I said about "Kyon is Nagaru Tanigawa". To me it didn't add anything, didn't really take much away either. To me personally it feels like a cliche, which now that I think about it I've seen in some Harry Potter fic as well, (of the "JK Rowling is actually a bored Squib with a typewriter" variety -- don't remember how that worked exactly given the Statute of Secrecy), and probably it pops up in other fanfiction as well where the main crux of the original story is that stuff is happening which could plausibly happen out of sight of the real world.

In terms of canonical works, I think Diana Wynne Jones did something basically-similar in one of the Chrestomanci books which... kinda... sorta worked? I dunno, probably I'm unconsciously biased against reality and fantasy mixing in this fashion.

So it's just a personal eye roll to see it again; you could keep it in if you're inclined, since it doesn't diminish my opinion of the actual story.

[sarsaparilla]

some fic I can't remember (where he went to an alternate universe to publish it)

That would be The Death of Haruhi Suzumiya by Turbanator.

[Arakawa]

Emph, perhaps.

Now that I recall, that was just generally an odd little fic. The 'Kyon wrote "Melancholy" and went to an alternate universe to publish it' ends up being a footnote that fits in with the overall insanity.

[Muphrid]

I can see how it would feel a bit cliche, yeah.  At the moment, nothing quite jumps out at me as a clearly superior note to end on, but it would be nice not to resort to something everyone's seen before.  I'll have to give that some thought, too.  Really the only thing I can think of that would split the difference is, say, Kyon knows Tanigawa as a struggling writer and thinks they could give him the idea.  That may be no better, though.

As for Death, that was a bit, uh, "different," wasn't it?  I'll give credit for being exactly what it said on the tin, though.

[Brian]

I reviewed it on TVTropes.  Took a very whiskey-tango-foxtrot turn near the end.

[Muphrid]

Yeah, if I recall, it was giving the vibe, "Oh, he' s not really going to do it; he's not really going to kill her," and then he did, and it made no sense as a result.  I could be horribly misremembering, though.

[Brian]

Yeah, if I recall, it was giving the vibe, "Oh, he' s not really going to do it; he's not really going to kill her," and then he did, and it made no sense as a result.  I could be horribly misremembering, though.

O_o

The only 'Kyon-kills-Haruhi' fics I know of *shudder* are The Jealousy... and Press Escape to Execute.  Both of which are terrible, just in different ways.

[Muphrid]

Ah, meaning the author.  Whoops.  Like, and it's been a long time since I read this one, I felt at first the author just had an attention-grabbing title that he wouldn't really follow through with, and that was kinda backed up throughout until, well, yeah.  Like I said, been a long time, and I may not be remembering correctly.

Kyon killing Haruhi would just be just...uh, what.

[Brian]

Wow.  The real irony?

One of those other two fics is by the same author. o_o

Edit: Man, was beaten to the punch and then some on IDing the fic. :p

[Muphrid]

So I was doing my second passes on 9 and 10, attempting to fix in particular, the CTC problem Arakawa mentioned:

Spoiler: ShowHide

It occurs to me that older Haruhi gives a good deal of advice to Haruhi, and even just affirming her presence and influence on the oldest Asahina is a transfer of information.  Should I stop just at older Haruhi's existence being affirmed, with all other details about her outlook and advice being cagey hints at best that don't really imply any firm action?  Since Arakawa's comments were confined largely to older Haruhi telling point-blank how she lived her life, it may be the other parts are sufficiently vague to avoid causality issues, but even so, I wanted to look at the problem.

[Brian]

So I was doing my second passes on 9 and 10, attempting to fix in particular, the CTC problem Arakawa mentioned:

Some thoughts (which, as always, you should freely ignore if they don't help (aside: you can totally tell me to STFU, if you like; I don't want to be pushy):

Spoiler: ShowHide

Not surprised to see my chapter three/four guess on older!Haruhi was correct; does explain why you didn't respond to that joke. ;)

Anyway.  This is still coming from a basis of weak understanding, but let me throw out this idea:

Haruhi getting any kind of 'help' from a future version of her undermines her already shaky/limited character growth.  If you're throwing out the 'compromise ideals' ending and going with this anyway, I think the strongest way to do it is to have Haruhi grow/reach her own conclusions, and not have older!Haruhi reveal anything.  Younger!Haruhi can then ask older!Haruhi and receive a validating confirmation, instead of less uplifting alternatives.

(Admittedly, I still think the 'willing to set aside powers long enough to legitimately earn the trust/respect of her Brigade after her screwups' ending would salvage a lot from my complaints -- but that's just me and my biased viewpoint.  Then the future reveal would be a confirmation she's chosen to do the right thing ... after she's made the decisions, instead of giving her an easy way out.  Especially moving if she doesn't know for certain that she gets her powers back until she realizes it's her future self.)

[Muphrid]

Eh, if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, there's a slight misconception here:

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The old woman in the red yukata from chapter three is an "oldest" Asahina, and the role she plays is to encourage Haruhi to go back in time to the moment Haruhi gained her powers.  This is the ultimate paradox, for Haruhi realizes the only way to ensure things turn out the same way is to close the loop by granting powers to her younger self.  This she does, after some doubt and contemplation--in particular, Kyon absolutely rejects the idea of opening the door for an alternative past and future, and the younger Haruhi points out that making such changes arbitrarily ("with a snap of two fingers") is meaningless.  Based on that, Haruhi comes to terms with what she's done and make things better by working at them, not by using powers.

The older Haruhi mentioned looks about 25 and yet is oldest Asahina's friend, and hence, there are several things that come up when our Haruhi meets her older self.  Why, at no point in the future, did Haruhi not tell Asahina what would happen?  How is Haruhi going to live her life?  The explicit text in these drafts was that Haruhi would continue living past her natural lifespan and thought it would be unfair to leave Asahina all alone in the future, away from the rest of the brigade.  Arakawa objected at minimum to the idea of older Haruhi saying point-blank that she would "take the slow path" and not just skip around time and space arbitrarily.

Taking that logic, I thought everything older Haruhi said in that scene could be problematic.

Whew.  That's a mouthful.  It may be more than you wanted to know at this point, and if so I apologize.  That's really the minimum I can come up with to be at least somewhat clear.

Regarding the other mechanics of the ending:

Spoiler: ShowHide

So, regardless of whether the Entity was erased before or merely imprisoned as I have in the published version now, my plan was for Haruhi to bring them back or release them in the epilogue.  With Haruhi keeping her powers, she can do this herself.  If instead she gave up those powers, it would fall on someone else (again, future Haruhi) to do it for her.  Not revealing who future Haruhi is until the deed is done could work.  As it is, though, I think I prefer Haruhi keeping her powers continuously, as it makes the message more, "I can be who I am, and I know I won't change the world because I'm content with the way it is" versus, if she shut them away, "I'm willing to learn how to be in this interesting world without the ability to change it" sort of thing.  To me, the first is more final, while the latter relies on more growth that we won't see because, well, the story's ending.

Admittedly, the difference between those is pretty fine.

[Brian]

Eh, if you're referring to what I think you're referring to, there's a slight misconception here:

Okay.  That clears up.  It was the depressing alternative to my first guess. :|

Spoiler: ShowHide

The old woman in the red yukata from chapter three is an "oldest" Asahina, and the role she plays is to encourage Haruhi to go back in time to the moment Haruhi gained her powers.  This is the ultimate paradox, for Haruhi realizes the only way to ensure things turn out the same way is to close the loop by granting powers to her younger self.  This she does, after some doubt and contemplation--in particular, Kyon absolutely rejects the idea of opening the door for an alternative past and future, and the younger Haruhi points out that making such changes arbitrarily ("with a snap of two fingers") is meaningless.  Based on that, Haruhi comes to terms with what she's done and make things better by working at them, not by using powers.

Oh.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm not sure how Kyon has bearing on this?  I don't understand why Haruhi chooses to keep and then not use her powers, either, and ... eh....

Anyway.  She keeps them and doesn't use them?  Then why keep them?  In this vein:

Spoiler: ShowHide

The older Haruhi mentioned looks about 25 and yet is oldest Asahina's friend, and hence, there are several things that come up when our Haruhi meets her older self.  Why, at no point in the future, did Haruhi not tell Asahina what would happen?  How is Haruhi going to live her life?  The explicit text in these drafts was that Haruhi would continue living past her natural lifespan and thought it would be unfair to leave Asahina all alone in the future, away from the rest of the brigade.  Arakawa objected at minimum to the idea of older Haruhi saying point-blank that she would "take the slow path" and not just skip around time and space arbitrarily.

Taking that logic, I thought everything older Haruhi said in that scene could be problematic.

Y...es.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I still think that there may be a risk of spoilers undermining the value of Haruhi's decisions.

Also, not sure exactly how to word this.  I'll apologize in advance if it's unclear or muddled.  I'm not sure about introducing questions like this into the story?  For wrapping things up, raising potentially open-ended questions which could have (if left vague) some negative interpretations may make things a bit confusing.  More than needed, at least; (Example: the PMMM anime ending).  Basically: Are you asking questions that need to be asked within the scope of the story, and is the pacing right for 'winding down', since the epilogue shouldn't really have major action/huge reveals?

Whew.  That's a mouthful.  It may be more than you wanted to know at this point, and if so I apologize.  That's really the minimum I can come up with to be at least somewhat clear.

That made enough sense.  Sorry you feel the need to try and abstract this so much. >_<

Regarding the other mechanics of the ending:

Spoiler: ShowHide

So, regardless of whether the Entity was erased before or merely imprisoned as I have in the published version now, my plan was for Haruhi to bring them back or release them in the epilogue.  With Haruhi keeping her powers, she can do this herself.  If instead she gave up those powers, it would fall on someone else (again, future Haruhi) to do it for her.  Not revealing who future Haruhi is until the deed is done could work.  As it is, though, I think I prefer Haruhi keeping her powers continuously, as it makes the message more, "I can be who I am, and I know I won't change the world because I'm content with the way it is" versus, if she shut them away, "I'm willing to learn how to be in this interesting world without the ability to change it" sort of thing.  To me, the first is more final, while the latter relies on more growth that we won't see because, well, the story's ending.

Admittedly, the difference between those is pretty fine.

Alright.  Not trying to harp on that same point, and more of (at this point) an observation on storytelling in general, which may not apply here anymore:

Spoiler: ShowHide

In the same way as spoilers to herself, Haruhi allowing herself a retcon undermines the meaning of her decision.  Here, it's to try and ... mmm ... remove some stigma from Haruhi on making such a permanent decision.  Having her undo it later is, as I understand things, very jarring when she won't do the same for Rooter.  I'm guessing there may be implications there you're trying to shy away from?

But you also kind of then directly walk into them with the IDSE (some could argue an entire species)?

That ties in directly with the 'she's locked into keeping her powers because, well, who else will be able to eventually free the IDSE?' angle....  That aspect feels a bit rough, somehow.  Maybe it's just because this is an area that discomfits me -- the 'permanent destruction' (even with the 'retcon' proviso).  Hanging on a justification to keep her powers just so she can 'undo' anything she does 'wrong'....  That's not an option anyway else has, so ... also seems to be going against her
'deal with things without using your powers' angle....

It still seems to me that the best way to handle it is better initial handling of Asakura/the IDSE (which, also, makes me wonder at their 'transcend time' ability; maybe they saw it was going to be temporary, and felt obligated to put themselves through it for the stability of the timestream?)

[Muphrid]

Regarding powers:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I'm not sure how Kyon has bearing on this?  I don't understand why Haruhi chooses to keep and then not use her powers, either, and ... eh....

Anyway.  She keeps them and doesn't use them?  Then why keep them?  In this vein:

Haruhi knows she's not qualified to make the decision she makes on her own, so she brings him along with the explicit purpose of wanting his opinion before making a choice of such magnitude.

As for powers, why not keep them?  They're still amazing to have when one can use them in a non-damaging way.  To me, there's an appeal in saying Haruhi can have fun with these powers without needing them to justify her life.

It may be more correct to say that Haruhi won't use them to alter the human condition or the makeup of the universe.  Granted, you can make an argument that using her powers at all, for any reason, changes the universe.  But then everything we do changes the universe.  Not saying that justifies anything she could theoretically do, but I don't see the harm in her zipping across galaxies to visit new life and new civilizations, for instance.

And again, I felt Haruhi stripping herself to be frankly risky and dangerous in the face of unknown threats.  The middle ground, an inherent limitation but not total stripping of power, might work in that stead, but there are aspects of that I dislike.  Such a choice feels like it would lack impact.  Knowing she's unsafe, Haruhi makes herself safe.  She uses powers to fix herself.  I don't know about that.

Regarding the Entity, big questions:

Spoiler: ShowHide

In the same way as spoilers to herself, Haruhi allowing herself a retcon undermines the meaning of her decision.  Here, it's to try and ... mmm ... remove some stigma from Haruhi on making such a permanent decision.  Having her undo it later is, as I understand things, very jarring when she won't do the same for Rooter.  I'm guessing there may be implications there you're trying to shy away from?

But you also kind of then directly walk into them with the IDSE (some could argue an entire species)?

That ties in directly with the 'she's locked into keeping her powers because, well, who else will be able to eventually free the IDSE?' angle....  That aspect feels a bit rough, somehow.  Maybe it's just because this is an area that discomfits me -- the 'permanent destruction' (even with the 'retcon' proviso).  Hanging on a justification to keep her powers just so she can 'undo' anything she does 'wrong'....  That's not an option anyway else has, so ... also seems to be going against her
'deal with things without using your powers' angle....

It still seems to me that the best way to handle it is better initial handling of Asakura/the IDSE (which, also, makes me wonder at their 'transcend time' ability; maybe they saw it was going to be temporary, and felt obligated to put themselves through it for the stability of the timestream?)

Right, so this is one of the reasons why I changed to having Haruhi imprison the Entity rather than outright erase them.  Unerasing the Entity is more similar to reviving the dead than opening a cage.  At the risk of an inapt analogy, it's like a prime directive thing:  if you're Haruhi and your powers aren't already involved in something "big," you don't use them if you can help it.  Haruhi already used her powers to cage the Entity.  Letting them go is her prerogative.

One of the things in the draft is older Haruhi telling our Haruhi not to worry about "big" questions because she has time to consider them and make an educated judgment about what the right thing to do is.  I know there are lots of these questions:  Rooter is dead, after all.  Does she leave him dead even though that resulted directly from something involving her?  If so, why not keep anyone from dying?  If not, then you let everyone perish with time, even when death is the result of evil, when it's unfair.  Or maybe there's a middle ground, who knows.  It's not a question I think anyone would want Haruhi to answer quickly or without due reflection and consideration and thought.  Maybe that's what she ends up spending the rest of her life doing--trying to puzzle out what's right and what's not right to do with her powers.

Anyway, in the draft, Haruhi doesn't directly acknowledge what those questions are, which is something I'd earmarked for revision.  Maybe that's too heavy to get into for an epilogue, but I did think leaving all that unsaid was leaving the door open for serious fridge logic.

As far as whether this reveal of older Haruhi is needed at all, that's...well, I could excise it, but I would want to excise a lot of hints in the process.  The hat is the thing.  In chapter...oy, six?  In chapter six, Asahina (big) in the future is at first not surprised to see Haruhi; she asks Haruhi if the latter is feeling nostalgic.  This is one of the indications that Asahina is friends with Haruhi even in the future.  Now, that work in itself is not sufficient justification for the plot point, but to me, the idea of the older Haruhi still a friend to Asahina and still around in the future was meant to be a moment of encouragement, a validation of Haruhi's choice to tell her that it is indeed all going to turn out well.

On the whole, though, I'm pretty comfortable with what's there.  In the end, Haruhi should feel energized and encouraged and ready to face the world's challenges, the challenge of opening people's minds to the possibilities of the universe, just without using powers to do it.  Ultimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into even more boxes).  Naturally, I want to avoid any implication of taking away Haruhi's freedom to choose her destiny or anything like that.  At this point, I may go with an approach where contact between Haruhi and that person is minimal, yet Haruhi can walk away with the right messages by inference all the same.

Either way, I'm hoping to clear this off my desk rather soon and bring some Ranma stuff here in short order, maybe?  Eh, we'll see.

[Brian]

Regarding powers:

Spoiler: ShowHide

As for powers, why not keep them?  They're still amazing to have when one can use them in a non-damaging way.  To me, there's an appeal in saying Haruhi can have fun with these powers without needing them to justify her life.

It may be more correct to say that Haruhi won't use them to alter the human condition or the makeup of the universe.  Granted, you can make an argument that using her powers at all, for any reason, changes the universe.  But then everything we do changes the universe.  Not saying that justifies anything she could theoretically do, but I don't see the harm in her zipping across galaxies to visit new life and new civilizations, for instance.

And again, I felt Haruhi stripping herself to be frankly risky and dangerous in the face of unknown threats.  The middle ground, an inherent limitation but not total stripping of power, might work in that stead, but there are aspects of that I dislike.  Such a choice feels like it would lack impact.  Knowing she's unsafe, Haruhi makes herself safe.  She uses powers to fix herself.  I don't know about that.

I see.

Spoiler: ShowHide

I wouldn't go so far as to say 'any use of powers is inflicting a negative change.'  But in regards to that last bit, I can't personally see how that last clause is any worse (or, honestly even different) from: 'She has her powers because she gave herself her powers.'  Maybe it's just me. >_>;;

I have to admit -- as big as this seemed in scope from the begining that reveal is kinda....  I dunno how else to say it?  Makes Haruhi's powers feel somehow kind of bratty themselves, if that makes any sense?  'Powers exist because they want to,' and 'Haruhi has to keep her powers to undo the things she's done'.  Even 'to protect herself' is kind of sketchy as an excuse, since she could just permanently turn them into some auto state and give up her conscious control -- just have her powers work to protect her and the brigade in the background.  (I think this is exactly the thing that you don't like, though it seems on the same level as the other ideas above, IMO.)

The main reason I even point this is out ... well, veering towards the K:BDH interpetation -- Haruhi wanting to keep her powers and have fun with them absolutely rings true.  Wouldn't have used that interpetation if I didn't think it wasn't on some level entirely plausible.  Wanting to keep them even after everything that's happened in your fic?  That can work, too.

But from a character growth angle, instead of using the time travel elements at all, why can't you ignore the question of where her power came from &cetera -- and just have her have an earnest heart-to-heart with Kyon about what she should do with them?

And he can honestly tell her that he thinks if she listens to her friends, and is careful, things will work out.  It lets you get that same 'future spoiler' effect, since Kyon has explicit memories that suggest that's exactly right (future Haruhi in college) -- and gives you a nice callback to the book.  How much of it he tells her, or if it's only made clear to the reader....  Just a thought.

Regarding the Entity, big questions:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Right, so this is one of the reasons why I changed to having Haruhi imprison the Entity rather than outright erase them.  Unerasing the Entity is more similar to reviving the dead than opening a cage.  At the risk of an inapt analogy, it's like a prime directive thing:  if you're Haruhi and your powers aren't already involved in something "big," you don't use them if you can help it.  Haruhi already used her powers to cage the Entity.  Letting them go is her prerogative.

One of the things in the draft is older Haruhi telling our Haruhi not to worry about "big" questions because she has time to consider them and make an educated judgment about what the right thing to do is.  I know there are lots of these questions:  Rooter is dead, after all.  Does she leave him dead even though that resulted directly from something involving her?  If so, why not keep anyone from dying?  If not, then you let everyone perish with time, even when death is the result of evil, when it's unfair.  Or maybe there's a middle ground, who knows.  It's not a question I think anyone would want Haruhi to answer quickly or without due reflection and consideration and thought.  Maybe that's what she ends up spending the rest of her life doing--trying to puzzle out what's right and what's not right to do with her powers.

Spoiler: ShowHide

It doesn't feel consistent to me that Haruhi misses such basic lessons in the chapters I read -- and suddenly manages to get this much bigger one later on.  I get that you're trying to avoid it, but it doesn't also feel true to Haruhi's character.  To quote a renowned film director of the Nishinomiya area:

"I hate those movies where the hero dies at the end!  So nothing like that in ours."  (Somewhat paraphrased -- but how does she handle the Story of Rooter in this context?)

And the issues can be sidestepped with all kinds of temporal cheating; I believe Haruhi would be able to make this exception to herself, at the very least.  And she could also find a way to make it work with Kyon's (evident) insistence that time not be tampered with unduly, re: the Chrono Trigger plan.  It may feel like it undermines other points, but if played right, and in the 'taking responsibility' angle, also might tie into the 'and will also release the IDSE at some point' ending.

Part of it, on reflection, may be that you needed Haruhi to witness the death of a character in order to motivate her to positive change -- even after the Mori conversation.  Somehow, this feels like it's an awful lot to have her reach that turning point; maybe I'm just searching for a way to mitigate that effect.

That could easily be entirely on me. >_<

Spoiler: ShowHide

As far as whether this reveal of older Haruhi is needed at all, that's...well, I could excise it, but I would want to excise a lot of hints in the process.  The hat is the thing.  In chapter...oy, six?  In chapter six, Asahina (big) in the future is at first not surprised to see Haruhi; she asks Haruhi if the latter is feeling nostalgic.  This is one of the indications that Asahina is friends with Haruhi even in the future.  Now, that work in itself is not sufficient justification for the plot point, but to me, the idea of the older Haruhi still a friend to Asahina and still around in the future was meant to be a moment of encouragement, a validation of Haruhi's choice to tell her that it is indeed all going to turn out well.

In this case, this runs the risk of being too subtle; is there a good call-back to this in chapter nine?

On the whole, though, I'm pretty comfortable with what's there.  In the end, Haruhi should feel energized and encouraged and ready to face the world's challenges, the challenge of opening people's minds to the possibilities of the universe, just without using powers to do it.  Ultimately, that was the significance of the other thing Arakawa found to be a bit cliche (as much as I can say without getting into even more boxes).  Naturally, I want to avoid any implication of taking away Haruhi's freedom to choose her destiny or anything like that.  At this point, I may go with an approach where contact between Haruhi and that person is minimal, yet Haruhi can walk away with the right messages by inference all the same.

Well -- that's the critical thing; that it works for you.  Reading between the lines -- other than presentation, we actually seem to be aligned in a lot of ideals; as mentioned, your goals for Haruhi's character growth are remarkably in-line with K:BDH -- especially in the line of how she should use her powers.  So I had some positive takeaway here; I hope my commentary was in any way helpful and not just pointless whining.

Either way, I'm hoping to clear this off my desk rather soon and bring some Ranma stuff here in short order, maybe?  Eh, we'll see.

Well, sure--  I wouldn't mind that.  I just hope my feedback hasn't soured you on writing Haruhi stuff. :\

Anyway; thank you for the thought-provoking discussion, and putting up with my ill-informed approach to things.

Edit: Oh, man, fridged again:

Spoiler: ShowHide

Unfortunate Implications, this time: What does Mikuru's 'Haven't seen you in so long!'/hug for Kyon mean if she's still friends with Haruhi in the future?