Random DM nagging.

[Yuthirin]

The closest I can think of is Medi's potions, which are priceless.

Knowledge Prisms are the next closest thing and they cover all 10 SRD standard Knowledge skills. They're expensive fast, check the first epic magic item booster pack for that formula. An item to boost all skills at once would be much more expensive and possibly an artifact, I'd have to do my homework.

How much are those prisms?

[Anastasia]

The closest I can think of is Medi's potions, which are priceless.

Knowledge Prisms are the next closest thing and they cover all 10 SRD standard Knowledge skills. They're expensive fast, check the first epic magic item booster pack for that formula. An item to boost all skills at once would be much more expensive and possibly an artifact, I'd have to do my homework.

How much are those prisms?

FAIL! Ko's quest for subtly hinting DEFEATED! Ko's only harvest is one of having to get the link rather than hoping Yuth would put one plus one together. There is only TERROR now.

http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,103074.msg1093881.html#msg1093881

Note that there's two entries for them, epic and non-epic. Read both.

[Yuthirin]

The closest I can think of is Medi's potions, which are priceless.

Knowledge Prisms are the next closest thing and they cover all 10 SRD standard Knowledge skills. They're expensive fast, check the first epic magic item booster pack for that formula. An item to boost all skills at once would be much more expensive and possibly an artifact, I'd have to do my homework.

How much are those prisms?

FAIL! Ko's quest for subtly hinting DEFEATED! Ko's only harvest is one of having to get the link rather than hoping Yuth would put one plus one together. There is only TERROR now.

http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,103074.msg1093881.html#msg1093881

Note that there's two entries for them, epic and non-epic. Read both.

Google gave me nothing, and I'm at work. I don't have time to go a read through 800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pages of stuff

[Anastasia]

The closest I can think of is Medi's potions, which are priceless.

Knowledge Prisms are the next closest thing and they cover all 10 SRD standard Knowledge skills. They're expensive fast, check the first epic magic item booster pack for that formula. An item to boost all skills at once would be much more expensive and possibly an artifact, I'd have to do my homework.

How much are those prisms?

FAIL! Ko's quest for subtly hinting DEFEATED! Ko's only harvest is one of having to get the link rather than hoping Yuth would put one plus one together. There is only TERROR now.

http://www.soulriders.net/forum/index.php/topic,103074.msg1093881.html#msg1093881

Note that there's two entries for them, epic and non-epic. Read both.

Google gave me nothing, and I'm at work. I don't have time to go a read through 800000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pages of stuff

I know, I know. I'm not serious about it, just amused.

Though for future reference and help, check the first post of all those topics on R&S. They have a table of contents with links to everything.

[Anastasia]

Okay, new policy regarding morning and off-time posting for me.

I'll do it occasionally but don't expect it. The most common form will be running over the afternoon session when I have the day off. Otherwise, expect it to mostly be answering or resolving OOC questions rather than progression posts, so that those don't take up session time. Particularly dramatic or tense situations may be exceptions as I see fit.

[Anastasia]

There's a new ACF up in homebrew. It's for battle dancers, just offering a little more flexibility there since I needed it. It's probably not very good except for niche situations, but I had a niche situation that needed it.

[Anastasia]

There will be a long delayed loot post in the morning. If I haven't done it by an hour before session, feel free to poke me.

[Iron Dragoon]

As a reminder:

Minor note of a list of missed opportunities for the insatiable curious Iddy.

Also, Epic Weaving skills.

[Yuthirin]

We'll say yes today, and an answer tonight when I go over that and Yuth's golem stuff.

In regards to the current concerns over the golem.

[Yuthirin]

Sunfire Purifier

Size/Type: Colossal Construct
Hit Dice: 48d10+48+96+192+80 (896 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20ft
Armor Class: 55 (-8 size, -1 dex, +50 natural, +4 deflection)(save vs blindness)
Base Attack/CMB/CMD: +48/+83/96
Attack: Slam+88 (6d10+48 plus 2d6 holy) or bite+83 (6d8+34 plus 2d6 holy)
Full Attack: 2 slams+88 (6d10+48 plus 2d6 holy) and bite+83 (6d8+34 plus 2d6 holy)
Space/Reach: 30ft/30ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, eye of dawn, sunlight strength, trample+6d10+40.
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 45/adamantine and epic, fast healing 35, immunity to fire and flanking, constructed toughness, magic immunity, on wings of light, toughness, construct traits.
Saves: Fort +34, Ref +33, Will +34
Abilities: Str 64, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 
Skills: -
Feats: Toughness(B)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness(B)
Alignment: Neutral

Spell-Like Abilities

Always active-holy aura. Caster level 48th. The save DCs are 10 + spell level.

Breath Weapon (Su)

120ft line, once every 1d4 rounds, 30d8 goldenfire damage, Reflex save DC 65 half. The save DC is Strength based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

Additionally, creatures damaged by this breath weapon are subject to a banishment spell (caster level 25th, DC 65 Will negates).

Constructed Toughness (Ex)

The sunfire purifier gains toughness and epic toughness as bonus feats. It has maximum hit points per hit die.

Eye of Dawn (Ex)

The sunlight purifier has three eyes; one mounted on each side of its head and a single large eye in the center. The center of eye of the sunfire purifier is the eye of an elder astral dreadnought and it retains its anti magic properties. This eye projects a cone of sunlight and antimagic when open. This is a 120ft cone that affects all creatures within as an antimagic field. The sunlight purifier can redirect the eye once per round on its turn as a free action, as well as open or close it once per round on its turn as a free action.

Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, the sunfire purifier must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then make a CMB check as a free action to start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Magic Immunity (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.

Rampage (Ex)

Once per minute as a full round action, the sunlight purifier can charge at a single target within 120ft. This charge ignores difficult terrain and other impediments (barring those large enough to stop it). The sunlight purifier may pass through a square occupied by other creatures, any such creatures are subject to the sunlight purifier's trample attack. If this charge attack is successful, it deals double damage.

Sunfire Strength (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is powered by a potent engine that channels goldenfire throughout its body, vastly strengthening it. This grants it several benefits as described below.

The sunfire purifier's natural weapons are treated as having a +7 enhancement bonus and the holy special ability. The sunfire purifier's natural weapons are treated as adamantine, epic and good for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the sunfire purifier benefits from a +14 sacred bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with its natural attacks.

The sunfire purifier has good base attack bonus progression, like a fighter.

Swallow Whole (Ex)

The sunlight purifier can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful CMB check. Once inside, the opponent takes 30d8 goldenfire damage per round from the sunlight purifier's breath weapon. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 50 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 35). Once the craeture exits, fast healing closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The sunfire purifier's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Toughness (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is constructed of blessed adamantine purified with goldenfire. It gains a +15 sacred bonus to saving throws. It additionally gains an additional 4 hit points per hit die.

Trample (Ex)

Reflex DC 65 half. The save DC is Strength based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

On Wings of Light (Su)

At will, the sunfire purifier can manifest a massive set of wings made of sunlight as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. These wings grant the sunlight purifier a fly speed of 40ft (clumsy).

While flying, the sunfire purifier cannot make a full attack. It is able to make a single slam attack, [placeholder for the moment until I get to that] or drop onto other creatures. Treat this as the sunlight purifier using its trample attack, except that it may use it on creatures of any size. In addition to the normal damage for the trample, creatures trampled suffer any fall damage the sunlight purifier suffered (use the same roll as the sunlight purifier to determine damage).

These wings last for 5 minutes before dissipating into scattered light.

Reminder that there was a large disagreement with your version. See Below:

Uh, lessee.

The two hitting better ones were combined into a single ability for the sake of the flavor working better. More to hit, some damage and crit range loss.

The miss chance got trimmed for the sake of overhead, it was on the border so could go either way.

Flank immunity was simply included in the stat block above rather than being a separate ability.

Power of the sun was folded directly into the damage reduction and fast healing. I also boosted the fast healing a little higher on top of it.

The sunburst was trimmed 'cause there's plenty going on as it is. A breath weapon's there to track as well as some other things, adding another fiddly bit to make yet more upkeep struck me as a poor idea.

Bulwark was snipped because it's CMD is really high as it is (and I need to make sure I don't need to recalculate it and added in the sacred bonus) and does that job well enough, without adding in another immunity.

If you could include that explanation in the first place, that'd be great. I'm open to criticism. That was not criticism. I was okay with you rewriting it in your format. I didn't also expect you to take it from a rose bush to a bonsai.

If it continues in this direction, I was planning on talking to you about that and seeing how to reintegrate the flavor stuff I cut.

I'm not sure I even understand which direction we're headed anymore.

Let's start with your details.

The two hitting better ones were combined into a single ability for the sake of the flavor working better. More to hit, some damage and crit range loss.

The first part of this makes sense. I'm fine with it.

The second part I strongly disagree with. It has a max of three attacks per turn, one of which wasn't affected by the damage buff. It needs something more. It either needs to be critting more often, hitting more often, or doing something else like sundering with every strike.

The miss chance got trimmed for the sake of overhead, it was on the border so could go either way.

I didn't expect it to last, so I'm fine with that. It felt like a step too far, but it bore including.

Flank immunity was simply included in the stat block above rather than being a separate ability.

Didn't notice that, cool.

Power of the sun was folded directly into the damage reduction and fast healing. I also boosted the fast healing a little higher on top of it.

Alright.

The sunburst was trimmed 'cause there's plenty going on as it is. A breath weapon's there to track as well as some other things, adding another fiddly bit to make yet more upkeep struck me as a poor idea.

I don't like this choice. The golem needs to be hitting more often somehow, and this was a good option for that without rolling more to-hits in combat.

Bulwark was snipped because it's CMD is really high as it is (and I need to make sure I don't need to recalculate it and added in the sacred bonus) and does that job well enough, without adding in another immunity.

Alright.

Ultimately, I was trying to give the golem more chances to damage creatures without just stacking attacks onto it. Looks like you're opposed to that. Yes?

Also, why the hell did you rename the abilities?

Followed by:

The second part I strongly disagree with. It has a max of three attacks per turn, one of which wasn't affected by the damage buff. It needs something more. It either needs to be critting more often, hitting more often, or doing something else like sundering with every strike.

Why not just give it power attack as a bonus feat? It has good to hit (even ignoring the bit about rebalancing it I mentioned), so giving up some to hit for damage makes sense for it much of the time.

Also boosting the damage was further considered, as rampage now has a free dire charge effect tacked onto it.

Didn't notice that, cool.

It also got fire immunity included, as I felt that was thematic enough to be a good choice. Magic immunity shuts down most fire damage options on it anyway, so I don't see it as being a huge deal.

I don't like this choice. The golem needs to be hitting more often somehow, and this was a good option for that without rolling more to-hits in combat.

Well yeah, but lemme ask you. Is it worth tracking yet another separate ability when you run it, one that requires keeping track of and invites you to forget it and/or mix it up?

It's also why the breath weapon went up to a 1d4 round recharge, as it's compensating for that loss.

Ultimately, I was trying to give the golem more chances to damage creatures without just stacking attacks onto it. Looks like you're opposed to that. Yes?

Not really, no. It's less that and trying to trim down more charged and complicated abilities, as well as abilities you have to track. Plus there's only so much a creature can do around, tossing on more and more freebies strains balance pretty quick.

Also, why the hell did you rename the abilities?

Besides sunfire strikes - which was just a random synthesized name for the sake of having one there - I think all the changes were to generic names, such as to swallow whole or breath weapon. See this bit from a few posts up.

3. When possible, convert abilities to what they are and use the established rules for them. For example, see swallow whole replacing into the sunfire engine. It does much the same thing, but uses the language and rules of swallow whole, which it essentially is anyway. This aids gameplay, makes rules conflicts easier to resolve and provides a ready reference when references are needed.

The point of using swallow whole instead of, say, ferocious super swallow deathbeam or whatever (yes yes, I know, it's hyperbole), is that it's directly tied to rules in the SRD. You go the SRD and you can immediately see how swallow whole is used, how the numbers are derived and so forth.

And:

Besides sunfire strikes - which was just a random synthesized name for the sake of having one there - I think all the changes were to generic names, such as to swallow whole or breath weapon. See this bit from a few posts up.

See below.

Sunfire Strength (Ex)
Eye of Dawn (Ex)

Not really, no. It's less that and trying to trim down more charged and complicated abilities, as well as abilities you have to track. Plus there's only so much a creature can do around, tossing on more and more freebies strains balance pretty quick.

Why not have Bask In My Radiance go off on a critical hit, then? Easier to track.

Furthermore:

Oh, what was eye of dawn before?

Could do that approach instead, sure. Bonus effects on a crit are a thing.

In addition:

I've been mostly silent in this because the rules/balancing of this is way beyond anything I've even touched. That said, what I can tell from each side is this:

Dune wants thing more in-line with the SRD/Rules and fewer separate abilities that happen to do more in a single go.

Yuth likes flavor and has a difference of opinion in the source/content of which abilities are getting mashed together and the 'custom' part of a custom golem.

Now what's missing both Yuth and me is the thought processes behind the value of certain abilities and why one got buffed in place of cutting another and why it's being considered 'a good trade.' I suspect this stems from the difference in how Yuth and I play (and the value we assign abilities), and how Dune plans/DMs/Mechanics things and is likely the source of frustration on both sides.

For Specifics:

Names: I understand Dune's point about connecting names and abilities, but a lot of flavor does come from here, unfortunately. Maybe do like spells do and add an 'as <swallow whole> effect, but also does' type deal?

The breath weapon and Bask in My Radiance. I'm kinda with Yuth here on saying the proposed was not a fair trade. It went from a solid every-4-round banish to a secondary effect on things that have already been hit. It was meant as an ability to clear the field/mooks/summons/ect., but anything that can survive the 30d8 goldenfire damage has a solid chance of flat out resisting the banishment spell, and anything that's reliably vulnerable to the banishment effect likely won't survive the 30d8. That being the logic, having it as part of a single ability that's now restricted to a cone that already does damage instead of a large AoE makes it seem like you're cutting the legs from it. The point of it was to be a wide area swipe, now we have no wide area attack at all, except the cone which we already had. So we've effectively traded an entire attack/ability with large range/effect for something that minimizes the usefulness of the effect.

Eye of Dawn/Light of Dawn: The difference here is the name and armor bleaching effect. The anti-magic field was unchanged so whatever, but the bleaching effect was lost. I suspect it was cut because we didn't list exactly what bleaching *does.* Does it simply change the color or if it's cursed/profane does it drain the profane bonuses or something?

Sunfire Strength: I'm mostly okay with the changes made here outside of addressing the crit range, which leads me to issue with Bask in My Radiance going off on crit. Your changes effectively lost us four numbers of crit threat range with no bonuses traded for it. I'm gonna quote Trump here: "Worst trade deal ever." Now losing some crit range is different than losing some. Losing 90% of our crit range and then having a previously separate ability tied to it which previously triggered every 4 rounds means that we also lose a huge chance percentage of it going off.

Moving on:

I've been mostly silent in this because the rules/balancing of this is way beyond anything I've even touched. That said, what I can tell from each side is this:

Dune wants thing more in-line with the SRD/Rules and fewer separate abilities that happen to do more in a single go.

Yuth likes flavor and has a difference of opinion in the source/content of which abilities are getting mashed together and the 'custom' part of a custom golem.

Now what's missing both Yuth and me is the thought processes behind the value of certain abilities and why one got buffed in place of cutting another and why it's being considered 'a good trade.' I suspect this stems from the difference in how Yuth and I play (and the value we assign abilities), and how Dune plans/DMs/Mechanics things and is likely the source of frustration on both sides.

For Specifics:

Names: I understand Dune's point about connecting names and abilities, but a lot of flavor does come from here, unfortunately. Maybe do like spells do and add an 'as <swallow whole> effect, but also does' type deal?

The breath weapon and Bask in My Radiance. I'm kinda with Yuth here on saying the proposed was not a fair trade. It went from a solid every-4-round banish to a secondary effect on things that have already been hit. It was meant as an ability to clear the field/mooks/summons/ect., but anything that can survive the 30d8 goldenfire damage has a solid chance of flat out resisting the banishment spell, and anything that's reliably vulnerable to the banishment effect likely won't survive the 30d8. That being the logic, having it as part of a single ability that's now restricted to a cone that already does damage instead of a large AoE makes it seem like you're cutting the legs from it. The point of it was to be a wide area swipe, now we have no wide area attack at all, except the cone which we already had. So we've effectively traded an entire attack/ability with large range/effect for something that minimizes the usefulness of the effect.

Eye of Dawn/Light of Dawn: The difference here is the name and armor bleaching effect. The anti-magic field was unchanged so whatever, but the bleaching effect was lost. I suspect it was cut because we didn't list exactly what bleaching *does.* Does it simply change the color or if it's cursed/profane does it drain the profane bonuses or something?

Sunfire Strength: I'm mostly okay with the changes made here outside of addressing the crit range, which leads me to issue with Bask in My Radiance going off on crit. Your changes effectively lost us four numbers of crit threat range with no bonuses traded for it. I'm gonna quote Trump here: "Worst trade deal ever." Now losing some crit range is different than losing some. Losing 90% of our crit range and then having a previously separate ability tied to it which previously triggered every 4 rounds means that we also lose a huge chance percentage of it going off.

Okay. So.

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

Refractive Haze getting cut is fine. It was a throw-in to see if it stuck.

The extra HP you added to Toughness helps.

Don't think I don't see that placeholder in On Wings of Light.

Probably more tomorrow.

In addendum:

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Now the thing is, I do agree with you, but I feel the mechanical portions of a creature are best reasonably streamlined, as well as using those mechanics to reinforce flavor without needing to say much directly about it.

Vast Power (Ex)

The tarrasque possesses a degree of might unknown to lesser creatures. It uses d20s for all hit dice, adds its Strength modifier to its saving throws, gains maximum HP per hit die and uses its full Strength modifier to determine its damage on its secondary natural weapons.

This looks like mechanics, but it also says things about the tarrasque that further sell it's flavor. What other monster uses d20s for hit dice, let alone gets Strength to saving throws as well as other benefits? You look at that and it points out directly that the tarrasque is a force to be reckoned with. That it's a legendary, titanic monster of inhuman strength, all in two lines that are easy to read and integrate directly into the stat block without anything further to track beyond that.

Water's Agility (Ex)

A blackwater golem uses its Dexterity modifier in place of its Strength modifier on all attack and damage rolls, as well as CMB checks. It applies its Dexterity modifier twice to CMD.

Another from C&M, this is a golem made of water. You'd imagine it would move fluidly and gracefully, right? Swirl about, move like a stream or otherwise do cool things because it's made of water. That's not directly said here, but when you read this, it implies and points out exactly that. It uses Dex instead of Strength and applies it twice to CMD? Oh, that makes sense, it would be graceful. This ability says that flat out without saying it, flavoring the monster and reinforcing what it is without dragging the mechanics longer or more complex.

Good mechanics help flavor the monster without needing to say much, because they define the monster and what it can do while doing so in a way that's concise and makes it as simple as possible to run the monster. This isn't to say that mechanics can't have some flavor beyond that - an interesting name, a bit of text in there framing it better, whatever - but the mechanics should largely be kept free of cruft. Let them work and add mechanics in other places, as much as possible.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Without checking swallow whole, I believe DR still applies.

Damage to cut out can be adjusted, I just threw a number at it for now.

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Why not just give it sunburst as an SLA then? I mean, if you want sunburst, give it sunburst and work from there. Or is it the 'get it for free on top of everything else' part that you want?

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

I have no opinion on it, I just omitted it for now due to the aims of simplification and brevity.

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

Hey, just an idle question here, but haven't I been saying a lot about simplifying, cutting down fiddly details and all of that? How does that turn into adding more of exactly that?

(In the interests of honesty? That would be moderately useful, I do use profane bonuses for baddies sometimes. If it's worth the trouble is an open question.)

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

It's also usable far more often.

This train has no brakes:

Flavor: I'm of the opinion that flavor makes the monster. It's what makes everything compelling and satisfying and engaging and all that good stuff. It's a requirement. And I think Dune is in agreement with me? Probably. I get the idea of removing the names of things for streamlining's sake, but I wonder if you go a bit too far with it.

Now the thing is, I do agree with you, but I feel the mechanical portions of a creature are best reasonably streamlined, as well as using those mechanics to reinforce flavor without needing to say much directly about it.

snip

This looks like mechanics, but it also says things about the tarrasque that further sell it's flavor. What other monster uses d20s for hit dice, let alone gets Strength to saving throws as well as other benefits? You look at that and it points out directly that the tarrasque is a force to be reckoned with. That it's a legendary, titanic monster of inhuman strength, all in two lines that are easy to read and integrate directly into the stat block without anything further to track beyond that.

snip

Another from C&M, this is a golem made of water. You'd imagine it would move fluidly and gracefully, right? Swirl about, move like a stream or otherwise do cool things because it's made of water. That's not directly said here, but when you read this, it implies and points out exactly that. It uses Dex instead of Strength and applies it twice to CMD? Oh, that makes sense, it would be graceful. This ability says that flat out without saying it, flavoring the monster and reinforcing what it is without dragging the mechanics longer or more complex.

Good mechanics help flavor the monster without needing to say much, because they define the monster and what it can do while doing so in a way that's concise and makes it as simple as possible to run the monster. This isn't to say that mechanics can't have some flavor beyond that - an interesting name, a bit of text in there framing it better, whatever - but the mechanics should largely be kept free of cruft. Let them work and add mechanics in other places, as much as possible.

Alright. I'll bite. Some name changes fur the purposes of you running them I get. Others I don't. I understand when you change them to what they actually do. Into The Sunfire Engine to Swallow whole makes perfect sense to me. Even changing Breath of Light to Breath Weapon is, while boring, also sense-making. Sort of. I was just really whiny about the changes to the names you did leave in.

Mechanics: Swallow whole getting nerfed sorta bugs me. Dealing 50hp worth of damage to half a foot to a foot living adamantine is paltry. Less so if the creature can ONLY attack with a slashing light weapon or natural weapon. DR applies as well? Confirm/deny?

Without checking swallow whole, I believe DR still applies.

Damage to cut out can be adjusted, I just threw a number at it for now.

Perfect.

Bask In My Radiance getting cut really kills me. I spent hours on trying to get that right, and it's really the core of the build. It's where the idea for the golem started, and I really can't see it being thematic and useful without it. The ability was designed to clear the field quickly of foot soldiers and low-tier flyers in the area. Removing the banishment effect and changing it to a consecrated/purified sunburst effect was something that I was comfortable with, because it still accomplished the goal. Adding the persistent holy aura effect in your version, Dune, really shores up the other half of it and makes it pretty much exactly what we'd wanted from the ability, minus the AoE banishment. The AoE banishment effect wasn't something I'd expected to stick as it's quite a bit overpowered and likely a huge pain in the ass to deal with on top of everything else. Moving Bask to being an on-crit effect is fine with me, but if that the case it either needs some strong upward tuning or the crit range needs to be expanded. If it's consistently running at three attacks/round max, and the 1/20 chance that there will be a critical (with a fluctuating chance that it confirms as critical, as high as 1/20 again), we might see the ability go off one time during the Assault. Needs more oomph on one side or the other. Or from a new vector.

Why not just give it sunburst as an SLA then? I mean, if you want sunburst, give it sunburst and work from there. Or is it the 'get it for free on top of everything else' part that you want?

The original idea had it going off every once in a while without affecting its overall combat ability. Unless it's a quickened SLA, which we could do!, it's a standard action and basically eats a turn.

Rampage had a neat little fixation effect that I came up with, why didn't you like it?

I have no opinion on it, I just omitted it for now due to the aims of simplification and brevity.

Fair.

Light of Dawn's bleaching effect was originally intended to be cosmetic only, though it could be used to point out traitors in the ranks. Iddy's idea of it negating profane bonuses is intriguing, though. Say a temporary negation for as long as they're within the cone?

Hey, just an idle question here, but haven't I been saying a lot about simplifying, cutting down fiddly details and all of that? How does that turn into adding more of exactly that?

(In the interests of honesty? That would be moderately useful, I do use profane bonuses for baddies sometimes. If it's worth the trouble is an open question.)

Iddy's idea actually has a lot of merit, because profane bonuses are def something we should expect to see on Lifasa. I like the idea.

The Breath of Light losing the HD-based bonus damage makes me sad.

It's also usable far more often.

Fair.

So Bask in My Raidance becoming an SLA is something I think worth pursuing. That said, I also agree that it needs something to speed it up. Giving it as an SLA and then the Quicken SLA feat for that ability only is a pretty good idea, I think. It imposes some limits on the ability (3/day) which might preserve balancing. I'm not 100% 3/day is a perfect balance, but it's probably a really good start.

As for the bleaching/profane thing. I tossed it out as an example of a descriptor having an unknown effect, but yeah, I also like it. That said, having it suppress bonuses while being attached to an ability that suppresses *all* magical effects seems a bit redundant to me. I'm not entirely certain how all the different bonus types work, Yuth mentioned something about innate bonuses, but maybe having it tied to the Holy Aura would be a better choice? Maybe something tied to how many rounds of exposure to the aura increasing the amount of bonuses being negated/suppressed?

Alright. I'll bite. Some name changes fur the purposes of you running them I get. Others I don't. I understand when you change them to what they actually do. Into The Sunfire Engine to Swallow whole makes perfect sense to me. Even changing Breath of Light to Breath Weapon is, while boring, also sense-making. Sort of. I was just really whiny about the changes to the names you did leave in.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. When trying to simplify something, I go to that because it's mechanically easier.

The original idea had it going off every once in a while without affecting its overall combat ability. Unless it's a quickened SLA, which we could do!, it's a standard action and basically eats a turn.

Were you going to awaken it? It could go for a feat based solution if you did.

Then we stopped.

[Anastasia]

Okay, we're in a time crunch (relatively) and more importantly, I don't think either of us really wanna argue over this much longer.

Slap together a decent final version and we'll go with that unless it's way out of bounds.

[Yuthirin]

Sunfire Purifier

Size/Type: Colossal Construct
Hit Dice: 48d10+48+96+192+80 (896 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20ft
Armor Class: 55 (-8 size, -1 dex, +50 natural, +4 deflection)(save vs blindness)
Base Attack/CMB/CMD: +48/+83/96
Attack: Slam+88 (6d10+48 plus 2d6 holy) or bite+83 (6d8+34 plus 2d6 holy)
Full Attack: 2 slams+88 (6d10+48 plus 2d6 holy) and bite+83 (6d8+34 plus 2d6 holy)
Space/Reach: 30ft/30ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, eye of dawn, sunlight strength, trample+6d10+40.
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 45/adamantine and epic, fast healing 35, immunity to fire and flanking, constructed toughness, magic immunity, on wings of light, toughness, construct traits.
Saves: Fort +34, Ref +33, Will +34
Abilities: Str 64, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1 
Skills: -
Feats: Toughness(B)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness(B)
Alignment: Neutral

Spell-Like Abilities

Always active-holy aura. Caster level 48th. The save DCs are 10 + spell level.

Breath Weapon (Su)

120ft line, once every 1d4 rounds, 30d8 goldenfire damage, Reflex save DC 65 half. The save DC is Strength based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

Additionally, creatures damaged by this breath weapon are subject to a banishment spell (caster level 25th, DC 65 Will negates). All creatures swallowed are immediately expelled, taking damage from the breath weapon (no save) and being hurled 60 feet forward in the direction the sunfire purifier is facing.

Constructed Toughness (Ex)

The sunfire purifier gains toughness and epic toughness as bonus feats. It has maximum hit points per hit die.

Light of Dawn (Ex)

The sunlight purifier has three eyes; one mounted on each side of its head and a single large eye in the center. The center of eye of the sunfire purifier is the eye of an elder astral dreadnought and it retains its anti magic properties. This eye projects a cone of sunlight and antimagic when open. This is a 120ft cone that affects all creatures within as an antimagic field. The sunlight purifier can redirect the eye once per round on its turn as a free action, as well as open or close it once per round on its turn as a free action. Creatures affected by sunlight within this beam are affected as though they stand in direct sunlight.

Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, the sunfire purifier must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then make a CMB check as a free action to start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

Magic Immunity (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is immune to all magical and supernatural effects.

Rampage (Ex)

Once per minute as a full round action, the sunlight purifier can charge at a single target within 120ft. This charge ignores difficult terrain and other impediments (barring those large enough to stop it). The sunlight purifier may pass through a square occupied by other creatures, any such creatures are subject to the sunlight purifier's trample attack. If this charge attack is successful, it deals double damage.

Strength of the Sun (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is powered by a potent engine that channels goldenfire throughout its body, vastly strengthening it. This grants it several benefits as described below.

The sunfire purifier's natural weapons are treated as having a +7 enhancement bonus and the holy special ability. The sunfire purifier's natural weapons are treated as adamantine, epic and good for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the sunfire purifier benefits from a +14 sacred bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with its natural attacks.

The sunfire purifier has good base attack bonus progression, like a fighter.

Swallow Whole (Ex)

The sunlight purifier can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful CMB check. Once inside, the opponent takes 30d8 goldenfire damage per round from the goldenfire contained within and are blinded (DC 65 Fortitude negates). A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 50 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 35). Once the creature exits, fast healing closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The sunfire purifier's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Toughness (Ex)

The sunfire purifier is constructed of blessed adamantine purified with goldenfire. It gains a +15 sacred bonus to saving throws. It additionally gains an additional 4 hit points per hit die.

Trample (Ex)

Reflex DC 65 half. The save DC is Strength based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

On Wings of Light (Su)

At will, the sunfire purifier can manifest a massive set of wings made of sunlight as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. These wings grant the sunlight purifier a fly speed of 40ft (clumsy).

While flying, the sunfire purifier cannot make a full attack. It is able to make a single slam attack, [placeholder for the moment until I get to that] or drop onto other creatures. Treat this as the sunlight purifier using its trample attack, except that it may use it on creatures of any size. In addition to the normal damage for the trample, creatures trampled suffer any fall damage the sunlight purifier suffered (use the same roll as the sunlight purifier to determine damage).

These wings last for 5 minutes before dissipating into scattered light.

Bask In My Radiance (Su)

All non-evil creatures within 80 feet are affected by a holy aura spell. Caster level 25th, DCs are based on the sunfire purifier's Strength.

Flavor Block
The sunfire purifier is a titanic engine of destruction built by a cooperative alliance between Aurora and Lathander. It appears as a 50 foot tall, 70 foot long, and 20 foot wide golem, fashioned into the shape of a three-eyed tarrasque. The body is made of pure and blessed adamantine, and its form glitters like a finely-cut gem in the sun at all times. The carapace is radiates bright golden light and emits a heat-haze radiance reminiscent of the effects of heavy sunlight on hot metal. A shaft of sunlight shines out from the central eye.

The sunfire purifier is powered by a complex and esoteric half-alive mechanism called a sunfire engine. The engine is both a source and reservoir of holy power, as it contains a semisolid core of churning goldenfire gifted directly from Lathander.

Changes

Spoiler: ShowHide

• Added Bask In My Radiance back in, might be overpowered compared to the holy aura listed in the SLA section. Your thoughts?
• Added the blindness effect back into the Swallow Whole ability.
• Added back the expulsion from Swallow Whole for the breath weapon.
• Added a sunlight effect to Light of Dawn.
• Bolded the bit in On Wings of Light that you left in. Not sure what you had planned.

[Anastasia]

Before I begin, is the changelog exhaustive as of the last version?

• Added Bask In My Radiance back in, might be overpowered compared to the holy aura listed in the SLA section. Your thoughts?

Whichever, one or the other.

• Added the blindness effect back into the Swallow Whole ability.

Okay.

• Added back the expulsion from Swallow Whole for the breath weapon.

Add a saving throw for the breath weapon when expelled.

• Added a sunlight effect to Light of Dawn.

Okay.

• Bolded the bit in On Wings of Light that you left in. Not sure what you had planned.

I'm not sure either, so just drop it whatever that was supposed to be. [/list]

[Anastasia]

As an aside, this golem has made me think a lot about monster design. When I have some time after this big arc, I'll probably some writing on what I feel makes good 3.5 design and when complexity is warranted, and how much complexity is warranted for various types of opposition.

For example, the greater deities I've worked out stats for tend to be more complex than this golem (and probably the intermediates too), and how is that suitable versus the expected role in the campaign and intended usage? Should complexity be directly tied to how important a creature is? What are good types of complexity versus bad types of complexity? What are good places to simplify and what are good places to allow complexity?

Putting it here as a mental note.

[Yuthirin]

The changelog should include all changes made to your most recent revision.

Bask: We'll do my version, then.

Breath weapon: Okayyyyyyyyyy :(

Bolded bit: I'll remove it.