[Haruhi][Spoilers] The Insight of Haruhi Suzumiya

[sarsaparilla]

I read into the conversation about things Haruhi looked forward to that she feels differently about as fairly neutral-positive, as Haruhi was willing to look to Kyon for advice and consider the possibility, even if only to herself, that her own priorities had changed.

The whole chapter is written four layers deep, deriving the form of each successive layer from the one underneath it until the surface layer is reached; that's why it was such a complex effort to put together, as I had to keep track of the causes and consequences of each layer separately. I didn't even expect anybody to immediately see through all four, but if people get stuck on the very first layer it suggests that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong; most likely the whole idea is flawed if it irritates people instead of engaging them into an intellectual exercise.

As an example, let's take a peek at what happens on layer two in this scene. When Haruhi says:

I've noticed that some of the things I used to look forward to feel rather insignificant now, and instead, some other things have become more important. Why is that so, shouldn't important things stay important regardless? Otherwise, aren't they something that only looks important but really isn't?

she actually means:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I know that a year ago I wished for the world to revolve around me, but right now I'd be content with being the center of your world. I want to hear you telling me that it's okay.

and then

And even then, if we just do whatever we've always done, then doesn't it mean that we're not really free, and are held prisoners by our own habits instead? Shouldn't we face each challenge as if we were seeing everything the very first time, without any prejudices? Isn't that the only way to be truly independent?

is derived from Haruhi thinking:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I realize that I've done things that I can't be proud of, but is it too much asked that you'd accept me the way I'm now? Later today I'm going to ask for your help and I hope that you consider it in earnest instead of resisting as a knee-jerk reaction.

The whole story is a huge honne and tatemae game between Haruhi and Kyon where everything that is said has several layers of meaning, and Kyon is not showing all his cards to the reader.

But as I said, this whole thing may be a giant train wreck if I have erred too far on the side of "readers are geniuses". If that's the case then the story is most likely not even salvageable.

[Muphrid]

See, I'm a great fan of subtext and reading into things.  The novels do that a lot, though, and I can understand the opposite school of thought--that for all the subtext we've had, it's about time we had some payoff with text instead.

Nevertheless, this is still a prologue, so I don't find reliance on subtext inappropriate, but I do wonder--Haruhi clearly must've put some thought into this plan of hers.  Did she consider being more direct?  If she did, why did she reject the idea?

That's an open-ended question.  I'm not saying she necessarily should be more direct, but I'm curious how you think she would've gone about this decision.

[sarsaparilla]

@Brian: Haruhi immediately knows that Kyon brought the bamboo, and that throws her off balance. When she says "You're right! It means that we are finally receiving recognition!" she's not talking about the brigade. From then on, all they way until they arrive to the shrine Haruhi spends her time trying to find out exactly how much their balance has changed. Kyon knows this, and is actually the one who has the upper hand the whole time! E.g., he very carefully takes a third option when neither of the ones from which Haruhi wants him to choose entices him (the thing about the last piece of cake).

Kyon is the one who's winning the game of "I know you know I know" the whole day, that is, until the climax when both Kyon and Haruhi lose because of an external factor.

[Brian]

The whole chapter is written four layers deep, deriving the form of each successive layer from the one underneath it until the surface layer is reached; that's why it was such a complex effort to put together, as I had to keep track of the causes and consequences of each layer separately. I didn't even expect anybody to immediately see through all four, but if people get stuck on the very first layer it suggests that I'm doing something fundamentally wrong; most likely the whole idea is flawed if it irritates people instead of engaging them into an intellectual exercise.

...four?  My ... goodness.  That's ... really impressive! o_o

As an example, let's take a peek at what happens on layer two in this scene. When Haruhi says:

I've noticed that some of the things I used to look forward to feel rather insignificant now, and instead, some other things have become more important. Why is that so, shouldn't important things stay important regardless? Otherwise, aren't they something that only looks important but really isn't?

she actually means:

Spoiler: ShowHide

I know that a year ago I wished for the world to revolve around me, but right now I'd be content with being the center of your world. I want to hear you telling me that it's okay.

I will remark here (with my limited understanding) that this, specifically, won't work -- because it's directly addressed in the tanzaku scene, and Haruhi (there) says she's going to keep pursuing it.  Unless I totally failed comprehension once more, but considering I only ever even looked for a second layer, that's (again) an issue with me, not your story.

But as I said, this whole thing may be a giant train wreck if I have erred too far on the side of "readers are geniuses". If that's the case then the story is most likely not even salvageable.

Bah--  That's just silly.  So one of your potential pre-readers (me) is a moron.  That doesn't make your story flawed.  Just too rich for one particular person to figure out.  It certainly doesn't make your story a trainwreck.  You seem to have a targeted audience -- one that's more able to puzzle things out than I, and also not burdened with my bizzare preconceptions.  Muphrid seems to get it just fine, right?  *sees response posted while he was typing this one*  Case-in-point!

That's fine!  If everyone wrote the same, we'd have no diversity.  I think you're writing with real energy and shouldn't lose hope or get discouraged just because I'm (I think) running a slight fever and crabby after my first week of sobriety.  Once again -- we can squarely place the blame on me for this one. :)

If you like, I can continue offering technical only-commentary, regarding the grammar and such.  You seemed less interested in that, but feebly, that's all I feel capable of offering.  Absolutely, I don't want you to stop writing your story. :x

@Brian: Haruhi immediately knows that Kyon brought the bamboo, and that throws her off balance.

Then I just failed to understand, and this proves your story is fine. :)

(Also, I stopped reading before the 'last piece of cake' thing came up, so I wouldn't ever have gotten it.)

[sarsaparilla]

See, I'm a great fan of subtext and reading into things.  The novels do that a lot, though, and I can understand the opposite school of thought--that for all the subtext we've had, it's about time we had some payoff with text instead.

The whole idea of this story is to follow how the main characters dig through the layers of meaning until they get to the core. That is why I said that if starting with four layers is a failure then I don't have a story to tell, as it hits the bottom on the first try.

[sarsaparilla]

I will remark here (with my limited understanding) that this, specifically, won't work -- because it's directly addressed in the tanzaku scene, and Haruhi (there) says she's going to keep pursuing it.

Actually, what happens is that Kyon unintentionally forces Haruhi's hand there. She wasn't going to bother with the bamboo wishes this time (indicated by the fact that she didn't even try to go out to get a bamboo) as she has something completely different in mind. However, when confronted with the task of writing new wishes she realizes that she can't write either of the wishes she has in mind on a tanzaku where the others can see it, and -- to save face -- finds an excuse to avoid it.

[Muphrid]

@Brian: Haruhi immediately knows that Kyon brought the bamboo, and that throws her off balance. When she says "You're right! It means that we are finally receiving recognition!" she's not talking about the brigade. From then on, all they way until they arrive to the shrine Haruhi spends her time trying to find out exactly how much their balance has changed. Kyon knows this, and is actually the one who has the upper hand the whole time! E.g., he very carefully takes a third option when neither of the ones from which Haruhi wants him to choose entices him (the thing about the last piece of cake).

Kyon is the one who's winning the game of "I know you know I know" the whole day, that is, until the climax when both Kyon and Haruhi lose because of an external factor.

The idea that Kyon knows that Haruhi knows didn't escape me on the first read, but it seems like the only concrete evidence of this at the time is

Hearing this, Haruhi turned around with a perplexed expression on her face, mouth halfway open but apparently unable to decide what to say. I put on my best deadpan impression. If this was going to reduce into a staring contest then my long and arduous training had not been in vain.

Now as I said, I'm a big fan of subtext.  The idea that Haruhi was testing Kyon in some way several times after caught me by surprise at first, but it does make sense with the vibe I got from her asking if he'll buy her food at the festival.

I guess I view subtext as a statistical thing.  With any given piece, the intended interpretation may not completely come out, but over several dropped hints and events, the odds that the reader will get what's up should rise.  I don't think what's been given is too opaque.  The big point is that Haruhi has some hidden intent regarding Kyon--the exact reason why is by nature a good bit harder to divine because there are lots of valid reasons to perform the same action.

The whole idea of this story is to follow how the main characters dig through the layers of meaning until they get to the core. That is why I said that if starting with four layers is a failure then I don't have a story to tell, as it hits the bottom on the first try.

Not at all.  I'm just saying I understand how and for what reasons the structure and technique of the story might fall a little flat based on personal preference.  I think overall the story is quite fine.

[Brian]

Aah, I see, now.  Definitely, I'm not at the rank I need to be to appreciate the genuine complications in this. :p

I'm sorry if my limitations have upset you, Sarsaparilla; if I can help with the technical aspects, and you wouldn't be bothered by that, absolutely I wouldn't mind.  I just don't want to see you discouraged and giving up because of my inability to understand. :x

Personally, I always aim for Readers are Morons, and then try to apply liberal Genius Bonus so the story is accessible to more readers (a habit left over from ff.net, where the general readership....  Well).  There's no reason more intellectual works shouldn't exist, and unlike me, you shouldn't feel compelled to pander when you write.

[sarsaparilla]

if I can help with the technical aspects, and you wouldn't be bothered by that, absolutely I wouldn't mind.

I forgot to comment on this. Yes, I will definitely need help with the technical aspects; as I have told, when writing in English I still feel like drawing while blindfolded. I can write as much as I want but my brain refuses to tell me what's good and what isn't. Even beyond that, I know that my storytelling techniques are somewhat opaque and convoluted; when somebody gets frustrated with the story it's a clear sign that I should adjust the presentation, so all feedback is valuable.

However, ultimately I hope to be able to write a story that is enjoyable. I can't ask you to read something that you find distasteful; since I believe that we can always find enough common ground in character interpretation, it becomes a question of working on the presentation until an acceptable angle has been found.

[Brian]

Alright--  Just let me know when you want me to take a look at it again, and ... I can be really slow on the uptake on some aspects, so try not to take my opinions as especially meaningful.  Certainly, don't compromise your vision just because of one dissenting voice.

[sarsaparilla]

Prologue II

This is a new, significantly revised version. While all the original scenes are still there, I have modified all the discussions between Kyon and Haruhi. For Kyon, I have essentially removed the surface layer (Kyon's obfuscation of his own thoughts and motives) so that he sounds much more direct, and now even gives subtle hints on Haruhi's true thoughts, which are the focus of this (half-)chapter just as the previous one was all about Kyon's own thoughts. For Haruhi, her true (second layer) thoughts are still the same but the surface layer is rewritten. As far as I can see, there shouldn't be any tsundere behavior left, Haruhi is seriously working for the goal she has in mind, and any negative feedback she gives is related to something that she sees as an obstacle on the way to the objective.

As I have mentioned, this piece has several layers of meaning and every scene is there for a reason. If some scene still feels significantly off I'd be happy to tell what it is supposed to convey on various levels.

Attachment version Nov 30, 2011 (4 revisions).

[Arakawa]

As a note: my C&C is delayed due to repeatedly having embarked on attempts to trace the four layers of meaning you say were inherent in the prologue. Unfortunately, subtext was never my strong point (shudders at memories of my Grade 12 English Teacher's obsession with James Joyce) so I'm afraid I've been suffering from a definite lack of Insight on the issue. (For the record, I also did not see the ending of Shadow coming, despite all the hints dropped in previous chapters, so that was an interesting reveal.)

I guess I'll have to give up on the subtext and just forward you my stylistic suggestions, while hoping that I'll at least be satisfied once the hidden themes are unraveled to some extent in the story that follows... hopefully I'll be able to wrap up my C&C (basing it on the revised version, ehe >_<) sometime... later today?

* Arakawa tempts fate ever so slightly by offering schedule estimates.

In any case, my suggestions are mostly of an "X is fine, but for future reference the same thing can be done in ways Y and Z" bent, so the chapter is already of high quality stylistically. Things that diverge from 'native English' aren't incorrect so much as idiosyncratic. I should note (you're probably tired of hearing variations on this) that your writing is of a high enough quality that I even have a bit of trouble imagining you struggling as much as you claim to put it together... (and having this impression in turn makes me think I'm maybe doing something wrong in my own attempts to learn other languages.... anyhow.)

[sarsaparilla]

As I mentioned before, one is not even expected to see all the layers immediately, as the whole story is spent digging through them. For reference, the main content of each layer is, from top to bottom:

• Events and dialogue as seen through narration
• The true thoughts of each character, events happening outside the narration but having an indirect effect
• The fundamental motivations of the characters and what they know and believe, the basic plot level (backbone of causes and consequences that drives the plot)
• Symbols, symmetries, archetypes, basic theorems of the Haruhi-verse

Edit: Since this (half-)chapter doesn't seem to invoke strong feelings in one direction or the other, I've uploaded it to FF.net. Still, I'd be grateful for any additional feedback, and will propagate the revisions accordingly.

[Brian]

For reference, the main content of each layer is, from top to bottom:
[...]

Oh, okay, wow.  I totally was overthinking this.  I thought those layers were like strata, and all of them more abstract and complex hidden interactions between the characters.  And ... well ... anyway....

That makes way more sense. >_<

Okay; here's my commentary, be sure to take with salt, as it's just my opinion, and some technical advice where relevant:

Spoiler: ShowHide

"Good morning, Kyon-kun!"

Aha--  I forgot to comment last time (probably because of my fever), that the opening scene is cute and well-done -- it feels very Tanigawa-esque.

It looked like Tsuruya had been right in assuming that Haruhi was planning something. Oh well, I could only hope that it wouldn't be anything too bothersome this time.

"Of course, as the leader of the brigade it's my responsibility to make sure that all the essential issues are properly taken care of, but it doesn't mean that I should be the one doing all the legwork! After vision and determination, the ability to delegate work is the most important aspect of leadership."

So, it was going to be bothersome.

Oh, I think I missed this last time; this line is following up on the one two lines above.  I think you could simplify the snark a bit by calling on a different word instead, perhaps something like:

"So much for that hope."

or the like.

"However, like any reasonable leader, I wouldn't even dream of demanding more of my subordinates than what I demand of myself."

Saying something like that doesn't help at all! Nobody can keep up with your energy level, and you should know that by now.

But it's a good attitude for a leader to have; meant to mention this on the previous draft as a nice trait for Haruhi to show.

What is fun for Haruhi is all too often an experience somewhere between consternation and outright panic for everybody else, but I couldn't make an argument to that effect because at that moment Okabe-sensei arrived to start the homeroom session. As we stood up I could hear Haruhi muttering something behind my back, but I didn't pay much attention to it.

The main issue I had with the previous take of this paragraph was that there wasn't much to offset the disparaging remark--  But here, not being specific keeps Haruhi from feeling antagonistic to Kyon, despite his complaints -- which feels like the right balance to me. >_>

That's the problem with these unreliable narrators. :x

I picked up my bento box and turned the chair so that I could talk with Haruhi while eating. Taniguchi and Kunikida who usually joined my company during the lunch break saw the situation and decided that it was in their best interest to stay out of it; I wasn't going to blame them for that.

I like that nod to Those Two Guys.

I knew that she would succeed because I had seen it with my own eyes. Or rather, she was succeeding already.

This whole passage makes much more sense when I'm clear-headed--  It's actually very nicely done now that I understand what's not being said.

Haruhi didn't return to the issues she had just mentioned, but kept talking idly about other things. I learned that she was still tutoring that bespectacled boy from her neighborhood and was really proud of his progress. Who knows, maybe she'd really have wanted to have a little brother?

I think the boy's father diasagreed, if he was the driver of the cab in book 11.

I couldn't even bother coming up with anything plausible to write down and preferred to watch as the others worked on their own wishes. To my surprise I saw that Haruhi wasn't writing anything either, and instead just sat there chewing her pencil, looking ill at ease. She stole a glance in my direction and certainly noticed that I was slacking, but didn't say anything. I'd never have thought that Haruhi could have difficulties with deciding what she wanted!"

There appears to be an extra quotation mark here.

After a moment of silence Haruhi slammed her hand on the table, startling Asahina-san who had been concentrating on her task admirably.

I believe there should be a comma following 'Asahina-san'.

In the end, Asahina-san decided to keep the wish about cooking and added another one asking for happy memories, Koizumi wished for acuity in recognizing new opportunities and Nagato's wishes were just as abstract as before. Insight and resolution? How could you even tell when such wishes were fulfilled?

Oh, aha--  I think I see some foreshadowing, here. :p

Haruhi looked at me incredulously as if I had been a foot-soldier who dared to tell his commander that they should desert their assigned positions.

I think you want either:

me incredulously as-- me as incredulously as

or:

me incredulously as -- me incredulously, as

"Does it always have to be a penalty? I was just giving you an opportunity to earn some sorely needed points through supporting your brigade leader so that she isn't too hungry to fulfill her responsibilities, but if you insist then maybe I can think of something you've neglected."

Haruhi's second sentence runs pretty long; I'd suggest breaking it up a little:
leader so -- leader, so
responsibilities, but if -- responsibilities.  But if
insist then -- insist, then

The lesser the chances of unexpectedly finding myself face-to-face with a ravenous velociraptor the better! And anyway, where did all this sudden interest in volcanology come from?

Heh; you capture Kyon very well, especially here.

At various points in the past when the circumstances and Haruhi's antics had conspired to make me look like an accidental pervert she had been livid, but the mood that I could sense right now seemed to be something else altogether. Without that purposeful expression on her face I might have said that she found the whole situation amusing.

"Isn't it great that we're all having a good time, then?"

Okay, now this feels like Haruhi's just re-establishing that even if she's not sure where Kyon is in their little game, she can at least throw him for a loop.  Perhaps, my previous reading was just influenced by my fever at the time, and I should have waited until I was clearer-headed. >_<

This take is pretty cute. :)

As with any other brigade outing, we walked around the shopping district without any apparent goal. Because of my extra load I didn't mind falling a bit behind the others as that saved me from most of the meandering. After a while Koizumi decided to join my company, if for no other reason than to share his latest observations as if I had asked him to inform me about them.

extra load I -- extra load, I
others as -- others, as

"I couldn't possibly do that. Whatever the contents of that bag are, it is unquestionable that there is something so important in there that Suzumiya-san doesn't trust anybody else than you to carry it for her."

Koizumi's excuse is great.  This whole exchange is actually well done; it captures the amicability of the pair that I consistantly fail to capture.  *takes more notes*

"Do you really believe so? Anyway, we are digressing. The specific question that I wanted to pose is that how does the unexpected appearance of a bamboo plant at the clubroom fit into the picture I just described?"

pose is that how -- pose is: how

"As you can see, I'll keep it just in case I should suddenly find a need for a half-eaten cake — and if I won't, it may eventually become a coveted piece of memorabilia bearing the bite marks of the famous leader of the SOS Brigade! What do you know, it looks like a win-win situation for me."

"Stupid."

I see, dodging the second-hand kiss without rejecting it; clever.

"Of course, we must must get omikuji as well!"

So, that's what the five-yen coins were for. It looked like she had this whole thing planned from the beginning. We all took a fortune from the stand and unrolled the paper slips to see the divination. I was only halfway through when Haruhi already announced hers.

Wanted to point this out as a good example of demonstrating what the japanese word means in narration.  Very nicely done. :)

"Dai-kichi! I got a great blessing for my wish becoming true."

Honestly, did somebody really expect anything else? I got mine opened and found out that I was going to have bad luck with romantic relationships. Oh well, whatever.

Heh.

Unable to restrain her curiosity, Haruhi leaned closer to have a look at my fortune and grimaced like a duck when she saw the verdict. "You know that you're supposed to tie a curse to the wires and get a new fortune?"

I don't think Haruhi would ask this; I don't know why, but I get the impression she would just expect him to know.  However, given (I think) her goal of helping him get rid of that fortune, I could see her saying it in a chiding way, something like, "every child knows..."

This all only goes to show that omikuji shouldn't be taken too seriously.

This whole part with the fortunes was very well done.

Thus, I was on my own when I suddenly noticed a familiar figure walking away from me, toward the far end of the shrine area. She was at some distance and had her back turned at me, but I was pretty certain that I recognized her. I hadn't seen her since April, so what was she doing here now?

Hum, Sasaki?

This part of the shrine area had many old trees and other elements of scenery that reduced visibility. I could see a glimpse of the person I was following a couple of times before she disappeared behind the bushes again. Finally, she seemed to take a path through a garden that had a lot of undergrowth on the ground so that the path was the only way through it. I picked up my pace as now I could easily catch up with her.

'other elements' of scenery is a bit vague....  I'd suggest being more specific, or just leaving it at 'many old trees'.

That second-to-last sentence is a bit awkward, too.  I'd suggest:

Finally, she seemed to take a route into a garden that was so overgrown there were no branches from the single path through it.

Or something along those lines.

"I could have sworn that I just saw...."

Stepping on the bridge, she noticed the lights in the pond and stopped to watch the scene as well. I could tell from her expression that she was discontented with the latest turn of events, but I didn't want to give Haruhi any reason to continue this wild goose chase, so I just stood there without saying a word and waited for her to give up. I didn't even want to think of the possible consequences of Haruhi starting to believe that there was something extraordinary going on around shrine grounds, out of all places!

Oh, not Sasaki, Yasumi.

"I can't even begin to fathom why you would want to do something like that! Besides, we would be thrown out before getting even halfway through the task."

It occurs to me here we didn't really see the sun set, did we?  It's dark now ... did I just miss it?  Yes; right--  I did miss it.  It's a good opportunity to show how the atmosphere of the festival changes with lighting, and might also be a good place to show the stars coming out to the reader.  The reference is a bit brief.

"However, the thought of having to wait another twenty-five years for a reply made it feel rather pointless to write the wish on a tanzaku. I thought that if I came here and made a message out of lanterns, then the kami would see it and, if I was fortunate enough, forward it to the proper destination without any delay. After all, they are kami so they should be able to do it one way or another, right?

"But ... I needed your help for doing it."

Wow.  That's an amazing scene.

Haruhi couldn't know that her wish had just been heard and granted, without moving a single lantern! Even worse, regardless of what would happen next she would be deprived of the answer she was looking for. I wanted to let her know, but couldn't; not without risking everything. I would've even helped her with the lanterns now, but I knew already in advance that nothing good would come out of that — it was completely pointless! Also, I had a vague feeling that there was something more to the situation than just Haruhi wanting to express gratitude, but I couldn't figure out what that something was; it bothered me and made me too anxious to even try to resolve the deadlock.

already in advance -- already -or- in advance (redundant)

In the end I couldn't say a word, and that made me feel pathetic.

Gaaaah.  Oh, do I empathize with him on that one. :x

Oh boy, talk about driving a point home!

Ouch.  I feel for both of them in this situation.

End of Prologue (Remembrance Impromptu)

Author's Notes: I wanted to make the prologue a self-contained short story that still incorporates all the essential motifs of the main work in a nascent form. At this point the overall style and thrust of the story should be rather evident; the seeds have been sown, and all that remains is to observe how they eventually grow to fruition. If you have enjoyed the scenery so far then I sincerely believe that you shouldn't be disappointed when this journey eventually reaches its intended destination. Until then, if the story manages to evoke some particular thoughts or feelings along the way then I would be very grateful to hear about them.

I really liked it; I'm looking forward to seeing more. :)

Edit: Just caught this:

Edit: Since this (half-)chapter doesn't seem to invoke strong feelings in one direction or the other, I've uploaded it to FF.net. Still, I'd be grateful for any additional feedback, and will propagate the revisions accordingly.

Ah--  Sorry; I can't speak for everyone else, but for myself, I wanted to wait for my fever to go down before replying, and this is a holiday time period.  My apologies for taking so long to get back to you.

[sarsaparilla]

Brian, thank you very much for this, I'll work the suggestions into the text.

I realize now that the original version was too opaque; your criticism was certainly warranted. I can see that with this second version you're picking up the same subtexts I had in mind while writing, which suggests that there has been an improvement in clarity.

Overall, the rest of the story will be more direct, as the basic structure drifts from a Batman gambit to an Indy ploy, and the whole brigade works toward the same goal.

Anyway, thanks again, and happy Thanksgiving!