[Haruhi][Spoilers] The Insight of Haruhi Suzumiya

Brian · February 21, 2012, 05:26:46 PM

That's illuminating.

The only observation I think I can offer here is that your outline seems quite solid and it appears you've developed it very thoroughly. I don't think you need to worry about changing it too much; this looks like more than enough for you to proceed on.

I seem to recall you mentioning you were feeling a bit stuck on progressing into the next chapter. Did you overcome your writer's block on that one? If not, is there anything I can do to help?

Edit: I spent some time mulling over the outline you've presented -- most especially the significance that these new(?) developments apply to your story. While I've got tremendously pointed opinions, I'm very, very hesitant to offer them because I'm not sure I can share them in a constructive manner. I leave it to you if you want me to expand on this, or I should remain silent; I am easily capable of disabling my emotions and only offering technical commentary, which may be the better option.

Muphrid · February 21, 2012, 06:05:57 PM

Re: clarification.

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In general, it's clear you have very definite ideas about what will happen (possibly, I think, much more detailed than I've been prone to have with outlines). As with Brian, if there is anything I can offer to help you break through the wall you're facing with the chapters you're working on, I'd be happy to assist. This story has a lot of potential, I think.

sarsaparilla · February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PM

Brian, I would very much like to hear your concerns on the outline. I have always found your feedback useful, even in those cases when you may have thought the opposite. Not every detail in the outline is set in stone, and if you have a negative opinion on some of them, it may be the case that I haven't been able to express myself clearly enough, or that I'm making some fundamental mistakes. In either case, I can only make progress if I know what the issue is.

Concerning my writer's block, I've tried to reflect on what exactly is causing it and I think that it's a combination of factors. First of all, there is a lack of emotional content in the next three chapters, but the events are still required for advancing the plot. I endured through the prologue just by setting my eyes on the bridge scene, but the next story arc is lacking such an obvious reward; there is a reward in waiting but it's much more subdued. Second, the style that I'm using for the work is heavily interwoven -- every major plot point has echoes throughout the story. Because there are still large gaps in the outline for arcs three to six I am afraid of committing myself to writing a final version of arc two; it'll be a major problem if I finish one part and only then discover a plot point down the road that affects what should have happened in the finished part. Finally, I'm lacking confidence. For my previous works I have had a strong urge to say something, and that has helped me with overcoming my doubts, but this time I'm repeatedly finding myself just staring at the existing outline and thinking that it's not good enough, that I'm failing to write something interesting. I'd graciously accept any advice that could help me with these issues.

Concerning Muphrid's question:

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Brian · February 22, 2012, 03:28:42 PM

I'll have a more detailed response to the writer's block issue in a bit, giving that the attention it deserves.

Okay. Before this goes on, let me re-iterate, while I'm going to strive to keep this constructive, I'm not sure I will succeed. You shouldn't even read any of this reply if you're not prepared to ignore some (perhaps all) of what follows-- But if you do read, I would hope that no matter how negative it seems, you at least skip down to the segment about what I like about what you're writing before ignoring it all forever.

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Structure: Some of this may hopefully be constructive.

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Tone: If you ignore everything else except for the parts that I like (below), I think this is probably one of the two most constructive segments of commentary I can offer in this post.

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Theme: Probably non-constructive; just a personal gripe.

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Technical: Not in the grammatical sense; just an issue with storytelling I may not properly understand. As with all sections, feel free to ignore it wholesale.

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Complexity: This is the second part I hope to focus on being genuinely constructive, and not just me whining that Kyon's being made to suffer too much for me to enjoy.

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So much of what I'm supposed to get is too complicated for me to make sense of. The extended conversation where Haruhi speaks in riddles is still impenetrable to me; I had to go back over your explanation of what it was supposed to mean, because it still is too obfuscated for me to handle.

Even then, re-reading it ... I only understood that Haruhi's speech to Kyon is about wanting him to accept her because you told me so. Re-reading it freshly this morning before writing this reply ... the same thing. I know on a logical level it's the case -- because you told me so. I don't honestly get that sense from looking at the text. This may be a bit harsh, but I do honestly believe that if the story cannot support itself from within itself, it may be flawed.

Maybe the reader is not meant to understand at that point, and it's only supposed to become clearer in hindsight?

Even so -- what you portrayed as a mind-game between Kyon and Haruhi came across as very confusing to me. While you say that Kyon had the upper hand, I (again!) only know this because you told me so; I just can't get that sense from reading it (or re-reading it). I did get the part with the cake at the end -- but only the part from where Kyon refuses to eat it and on (incidentally, it being ruined in his pocket came across as a metaphor for his relationship with Haruhi in this story, to me).

As complicated as you are planning on this story being, I have a very profound fear that no one but you will genuinely understand it. My suspicion is that the vast majority of your readers will only be able to penetrate one or maybe two layers of the four you've planned.

Then again-- Then again, maybe it's just me. Perhaps other readers will be able to make more sense of this; I'd like to entreat other readers to provide input here for a general perception-check, on that note. My suspicion iss that more likely than not, the average reader is going to find the nuances utterly impenetrable, and only be able to gloss the surface, not taste the delights hidden deep, deep within.

Supportive note: What I liked, and why I want to keep encouraging you, even despite what I've said above. If you ignore the rest of this entirely, I hope you read this segment.

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While I cannot enjoy this story directly -- or (at this point) even feel for it at all, there is one part of it that makes me happy.

To be honest, I don't think there's anything you can do to turn this into a story I can actually enjoy on its own -- so I don't even want to suggest that you should bother trying. However ... it is a story that has meaning and significance to you, and understanding that, I want to keep encouraging you to write this.

The part of this story that I can enjoy is the knowledge that it satisfies you, and it makes you happy. I'm quite content to emotionally detatch myself from the story proper and offer technical commentary to help you pursue your own vision -- especially because you have established that it is very, very solid, and incredibly refined. In my case, because I consider you a friend -- it is no chore or errand to read it in my detached state -- that you helped me devlop in favor of rage attacks! I can't understate how much I appreciate that!

That's pretty amazing to me, even if this might come across as a very self-centered aside -- but I also want to demonstrate that you have had a positive influence on me in general, even if your story didn't reach me in the way I think you wanted. That's fine -- you have, and so this isn't really that big a deal (in my mind). After all, most of my stories don't reach you the way I wanted, so this is just another incident where we mirror one-another.

But back to what I like about your story: You have very complete, fully realized images of the characters and their interactions. You've plotted and demonstrated that you have a vivid and rich understanding of almost all the elements of your story. You've proven that you can really capture Kyon's 'voice.' You've shown a level of effort and care into crafting your story that goes worlds and worlds beyond what the average writer cares to even try-- I am genuinely impressed at the immersive level of detail you've wrapped your premise in! The delivery is brilliant, your grammar and technical skills are probably on par with mine, as I predicted they would be (and in a few months I expect you will surpass me, too).

So don't let this get you down. I'll just apologize for being unable to give you the proper encouragement that this story honestly deserves.

[/spoiler]

And that's the end of what I think I can offer in terms of help outside of the technical aspects, which I am (again) still glad to supply you with. :)

Good luck Sarsaparilla, even though I expect you don't honestly need it. ^_^;

Brian · February 22, 2012, 03:48:15 PM

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMConcerning my writer's block, I've tried to reflect on what exactly is causing it and I think that it's a combination of factors. First of all, there is a lack of emotional content in the next three chapters, but the events are still required for advancing the plot. I endured through the prologue just by setting my eyes on the bridge scene, but the next story arc is lacking such an obvious reward; there is a reward in waiting but it's much more subdued.

Believe me, I've run into this issue enough times myself to understand how you feel. :\

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMSecond, the style that I'm using for the work is heavily interwoven -- every major plot point has echoes throughout the story. Because there are still large gaps in the outline for arcs three to six I am afraid of committing myself to writing a final version of arc two; it'll be a major problem if I finish one part and only then discover a plot point down the road that affects what should have happened in the finished part.

Okay -- there's a relatively simple compromise. Let's treat the Soulrider's forum as your testbed and gather feedback on your rough drafts. Just hold off on posting to ff.net (or elsewhere) until you've got everything finalized. A note that chapters posted here aren't final seems more than fair -- that's my approach, for what that's worth.

It's probably not possible to have your fic spring from your head fully grown, like Athena. You have to build it piece-by-piece, and revision may be required. That's fine! No one is perfect, and no one writes perfectly (and if they did, they wouldn't look for feedback, I think).

I'll touch on this in more detail momentarily, but it's easy to get into a vicious cycle where you're uncertain about writing, and so you don't write, and that makes you less certain about writing, and.... (You can see where this goes.)

Quote from: sarsaparilla on February 22, 2012, 03:11:33 PMFinally, I'm lacking confidence. For my previous works I have had a strong urge to say something, and that has helped me with overcoming my doubts, but this time I'm repeatedly finding myself just staring at the existing outline and thinking that it's not good enough, that I'm failing to write something interesting. I'd graciously accept any advice that could help me with these issues.

Okay. I've taken classes on creative writing (yeah, yeah, I know), and while most of them were huge wastes of time, I did pick up a few useful tricks. One of the most critical ones is something I gathered from a teacher refering to what she called ... no, I'll instead call them 'crummy first drafts.' There's a strong temptation to judge yourself and revise as you write.

You should avoid doing that. Divide your efforts into two clear phases -- writing, and revision. Sometimes this means you have to accept writing something that you don't think is very good to start, in order to get the creative juices flowing. It's like a pen that's gone a bit dry at the nib; you have to scribble for a bit to get the ink to start coming out.

Similarly, sometimes you have to accept that your initial drafts aren't great and will need revision. That's fine -- you need to ignore that little voice that tells you it's not good enough; you're not writing permanent foundations -- you're establishing a framework that you can come back to and flesh out in more detail later.

In other words, even if it seems difficult, plow through -- ignore the difficulties. Kick depression to the curb, and believe in the community that believes in you! When life throws you lemons, don't take them! Get mad! Burn life's house down with the lemons.... No, no, wait. Wrong motivational speech. >.>

Okay, joking aside -- sometimes the answer is to press on through, to get to the parts you want to write. Then you can freely go back and revise those parts that you're less confident in, bringing them back in line. Typically this advice is meant in terms of scenes -- but given the structure of your story, I think you should feel free to apply it to your writing in general. You're stuck because you don't have a base to work from?

Give yourself a base! Even if it's one you're initially dissatisfied with, if it's enough for you to get to the parts you know you want to write, then you can always go back and revise -- and it's much easier if you use my approach of treating this site as a home for rough drafts and revisions, and then submit your finals to the less-critical readership instead of a community of those who are willing to be more critical.

A disclaimer that you plan heavy revisions on some chapters should be entirely fine-- Bottom line, even if it's difficult to believe, you can push through and write! You can also write something that lives up to the standard you want! You may not be able to do both at the same time -- but if you can accomplish both of your goals, one at a time, isn't that fine? :)

Muphrid · February 22, 2012, 04:04:10 PM

Quote
Concerning my writer's block, I've tried to reflect on what exactly is causing it and I think that it's a combination of factors. First of all, there is a lack of emotional content in the next three chapters, but the events are still required for advancing the plot. I endured through the prologue just by setting my eyes on the bridge scene, but the next story arc is lacking such an obvious reward; there is a reward in waiting but it's much more subdued. Second, the style that I'm using for the work is heavily interwoven -- every major plot point has echoes throughout the story. Because there are still large gaps in the outline for arcs three to six I am afraid of committing myself to writing a final version of arc two; it'll be a major problem if I finish one part and only then discover a plot point down the road that affects what should have happened in the finished part. Finally, I'm lacking confidence. For my previous works I have had a strong urge to say something, and that has helped me with overcoming my doubts, but this time I'm repeatedly finding myself just staring at the existing outline and thinking that it's not good enough, that I'm failing to write something interesting. I'd graciously accept any advice that could help me with these issues.

I think I had a similar problem late last week, though on a much smaller scale. I was working on a scene in Identity where Shampoo had to wait at the Cat Cafe for Cologne to contact the Amazons and have representatives of the leadership fly out from China. The thing that kept bothering me about it was that, while I felt it was a necessary scene, that the reader needed to know at least on a factual level what was happening, it was dry and without emotional content, and I didn't know what to do about it. So I worked on some other things for a few days. I drew up a first real outline for a story I've had in my head for the better part of a year. I struggled with trying to figure out how one person could chase or follow another who rampages across multiple universes (and I still don't know the answer to that one). Ultimately, though, after putting that one scene aside for a bit, I was able to find the emotional thread: Shampoo was eager for Cologne to contact the tribe, for it would give Shampoo a chance to prove her worth once again. Focusing on that, rather than the dry, factual aspects of the situation, helped me immensely. If you have ideas for other stories, even if they're not very developed, just fleshing them out might give the change in thought process needed to break through.

Beyond that, you say this arc's reward is more subdued, but it is there. Is it possible to connect every scene in some way to that reward? If so, then I think keeping the focus on that connection (and having the stuff that factually needs to happen be put into the background) might help. To me, the fundamental unit of story (whether one calls it a chapter or arc or whatever else) has to change at least one character in some palpable, distinct way. They should think differently about the world or about the people around them because the events of the story compel them to. If there's a way to keep that in the foreground and push the stuff that simply must occur for the plot to make logical sense, maybe that will help. That said, I've still consider my own approach to writing as too mechanical, too driven by the logical, problem-solving-oriented approach that my background as a scientist encourages. If none of what I've said above is helpful, it certainly wouldn't surprise me too much.

Regarding the danger of painting oneself into a corner, I think we all struggle with the danger of writing something and then discovering that something later on demands that what came earlier be changed. This is one reason why I write whole "arcs" in Identity rather than publishing them in pieces, but in the end, I think at some point the risk must necessarily be accepted or avoided entirely. All that can be done to totally avoid the issue is write the whole story before exposing any of it to the outside world or outline more of the later parts until you no longer fear the unknown portions.

Re: the answer to my question.

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sarsaparilla · February 22, 2012, 04:51:13 PM

Brian and Muphrid, thank you for your advice on overcoming the block, I'll try to put that to good use.

Brian, after reading through all your comments on the outline, my first impression is that some of the issues are aligned with what I myself see as flaws in the story as well, and hope to work on before getting to that point, some other issues are related to details that are not mentioned in the outline but which radically alter the circumstances, and finally, some comments left me feeling confused and uncertain because they don't seem to correspond to anything in the story, at least when it comes to the version I have in my mind. The last part must be related to a difference in interpretation, as some of those issues were pertinent to the prologue which should be in its final, intended form. I simply can't see how Kyon was treated like a chew toy in the prologue, or how Haruhi was responsible for the unfortunate end result -- she had been planning a wonderful surprise for Kyon, the lantern rearrangement task being only a convenient excuse to achieve her real objective, and was totally devastated by the outcome, much more so than Kyon himself, who wasn't even aware of what he missed.

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I will do my best to understand your concerns, point by point, and to take them into account when writing. I believe that the story won't be nearly as dark as you think it will turn out to be, though I am aware of my poor judgement on this very issue. In any case, thank you very much for being completely frank with your feedback.

Arakawa · February 22, 2012, 11:19:51 PM

Ahm, I've found that on fic ideas I can either throw out ideas that the author may or may not want to use, or go into completely vague psychology details. It's meant to be thought-provoking, and to do so I may go into my tendency to contemplate things in a detached manner, which other people might not share. Be warned.

(It is most likely to be simply irrelevant. However, maybe digesting some of it might result in an unrelated idea that will help to reinforce some key theme that everyone's feeling anxious about, ensuring that it works for the fic and not against it.)

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I find (it's puzzling) that the optimal dynamic for people to form an emotional connection with each other isn't a uniform parade of high points and good times, it's a sort of sinusoidal pattern of ups and downs. If two people can have a horrendous altercation and eventually come back from that, that gives them a solid reason to trust one another compared to when they've just been so lucky as to have nothing to disagree over.

(I've even read works of dubious advice which instruct people to produce... "manufactured" downs, so to speak, which strikes me as simultaneously horrendously manipulative and effective. Very unpleasant to consider, and it's part of the reason I tend to make many acquaintances and few friends, because I tend to avoid the downs -- knowing what I do, it feels dishonest to exploit it. My friends wind up being the people who I've been so careless as to hurt unintentionally at some point and had to compensate for it... I remain aware of this dynamic after the fact even when they don't, which makes it very difficult to feel completely honest accepting their trust afterwards. I can think of several examples off the top of my head, people I've been friends with for a long time who nevertheless I always feel just slightly uneasy interacting with for that exact reason.)

So how exactly do people make lasting friendships and, in the case of Kyon and Haruhi, fall in love, if simply being guardedly considerate (as I outlined above) is enough to avert the possibility of human connection?

My conjecture is that, as people try to open up their inner worlds to one another, it's almost inevitable at some point for a misunderstanding to occur. Too much openness can in and of itself be off-putting to the other person, not to mention that their inner worlds might just be irreconcilable in some ways. So if people don't overthink the consequences, by retaining focus on the need to open up to each other they can wind up pulling through the inevitable unpleasantness to the mutual trust waiting at the other end.

This is an important dynamic to consider for the fic, because the "downs" in Kyon and Haruhi's relationship (both in the original series and in the fic as you seem to be proposing it), are really down. However, what I know now suggests that this aspect can, if applied correctly, be used to reinforce their connection rather than destroy it.

(The 'if applied correctly' part refers to something I don't understand myself yet, which is that the ups and downs don't always result in a connection, but rather the way the sinusoid is aligned to... something or other also makes a difference. My mental image is that of a swing, where kicking your feet a certain way at one end of the arc will increase your momentum, whereas kicking your feet exactly the same way at the other end will cause you to slow down.)

Now for conjecture about where the fic might end up but hopefully won't, and other places it might end up that might be interesting (or might not be interesting at all).

Given the outline, to add to what Brian was expressing anxiety about, what I'm worried about is the possibility of mishandling the dynamics along the lines of "Kyon tries to get closer to Haruhi, they don't quite succeed, Haruhi is frustrated, her unconscious (Yasumi) goes and punishes Kyon for the failure". To be a bit too honest, perhaps, that strikes me as the same idea of the unconscious mind undermining a person's conscious intent that squicked me about the "Kyon can see up Haruhi's skirt inside a dream when neither of them intended it to happen" thing in In Your Dreams.

(Now, to explain myself re the IYD remark: [spoiler]in In Your Dreams, the thing was that there really wasn't room for the whole "Kyon and Haruhi's unconscious minds sabotage their communication" leviathan to be brought up and the unpleasant issues that raises to be addressed, and I wasn't about to suggest that you and Hal completely derail the fic to turn it into a sensitive treatment of the notion of someone's unconscious mind sabotaging them. Certainly not when this issue was only introduced due to a throwaway thing that seemed in no way relevant to the story you were trying to tell.

)

However, the reason I'm not squicked in this instance is this is something that I'm hopeful that, if you wanted to devote the space to it, you could actually give an interesting and sensitive treatment of this (actually quite real) problem.

Because it does seem to me that, however you mince it, Yasumi is a major liability for Haruhi within the fic as outlined.

The idea I'm reading out of the conversation (which may be wholly inaccurate, in which case I'm apologize) so far is that while Kyon and Haruhi are slowly trying to work things out, Haruhi's powers instead start to act on her desires in ways she doesn't want them to do (in one way or another, Yasumi's machinations boil down to the fact that she wants things to come to a head quickly whereas Kyon and Haruhi are resigned to trying to work around to a mutual understanding gradually rather than forcing each other out of their comfort zones). Haruhi struggles to try to find a way around the frustration/dissatisfaction that caused this to happen. She eventually gives up and tries to amputate the source of the problem -- which is tantamount to banishing her unconscious mind in some sense, which isn't really a very good idea -- but comes around and eventually finds a way to make a truce with her unconscious so that it works for her and not against her.

It might be somewhat related to the sinusoid idea earlier: people who feel the need to connect might feel compelled to open up without regard for the consequences, wind up forcing each other out of their comfort zone, at which point the connection is strained. Either it breaks, or it becomes more resilient than before, at which point the cycle might begin anew.

Here, instead of a need to be honest without regard for the consequences, Yasumi is the factor that is forcing them out of their comfort zones (via some extreme-sounding means in the current outline) where without her involvement they might dither around for years trying to take things slowly, and never end up anywhere. So, there's room for Yasumi to be not just a disruptive force. Ultimately, she wants the same things Haruhi wants, and it would be most logical for her to interfere so actively if she was growing worried that Haruhi and Kyon need to be pushed to take things faster.

Maybe it's just that for Yasumi to stop undermining Haruhi at every turn, Haruhi and Kyon need to stop seeing her as the enemy on some level. Since you claim that Kyon is going remain convinced throughout that Haruhi's powers are overall a benefit, it seems reasonable that both of them need to take this step. And it's to be expected that the most egregious miscommunications will be between Kyon/Yasumi and Haruhi/Yasumi, not Kyon/Haruhi. Kyon and Haruhi don't reveal everything to one another because there's a serious case to be made that they could hurt one another by revealing too much too quickly -- both in terms of their feelings and in terms of Haruhi's powers. Yasumi is pushing them out of the comfort zone and into the zone where strong connections happen, which is easy to misinterpret as her just trying to sabotage their relationship -- indeed, there's a risk that their mutual trust won't be strong enough, and it could go either way. The logical reason why she would be pushing them to take that risk now and not earlier in the canon would be not "because Tanigawa wrote such and such number of novels at the time sarsa started her fic", but rather because it's their last summer and their last opportunity to spend significant time together. After that, there'll be a hectic last year of school, and then they'll go to college, perhaps different colleges, perhaps growing apart forever, so if Haruhi/Yasumi wants to see Haruhi and Kyon together, she might indeed be incredibly desperate at this point and there's a fair chance that Kyon and Haruhi, being dubious about the notion of excessive revelation...

(Think back to Riddle of Kyon, if you're willing to contemplate it again. If you excise the *ahm* more extreme author tract unpleasantness, what we have left is a concise demonstration of how just the basic idea alone of Kyon taking Haruhi aside and just suddenly revealing everything to her could be hideously creepy and alienating.)

... will simply misinterpret her actions. The difficulty is in getting across to the reader that Yasumi, in fact, has a point acting the way she does besides just "she's childish and acts out Haruhi's repressed desires even when they're inadvisable".

In that case, Haruhi trying to banish her powers and awakening the volcano would be a complete rejection of her unconscious mind, and a refusal to let it have a voice in things, and thus an extreme emotional low point, but it would be the kind of low point you've proven that you can come back from and end the fic on an uplifting note with. Especially since, unlike your last major fic, the outline really does seem to come back to an uplifting conclusion, and not a more ambiguous/bittersweet one like in Shadow, which makes it much more worthwhile for me as a reader to agree to go on whatever sort of emotional rollercoaster you will eventually construct.

Anyhow, the reasoning I've given above is just one possible way you can try to adopt Yasumi's viewpoint and try to make it work for the benefit of the fic.

I don't know. I'm throwing out ideas randomly at this point. In my opinion (which is biased by my taste in writing and my peculiar set of experiences -- my ideas on how to take Yasumi's viewpoint would have been impossible for me to have if I hadn't just now performed some very hard work in lucid dreaming, trying to unearth a personification of my own unconscious in order to determine what it thinks of me as a person. The result ended up basically what I outlined above, in the more general sense: my unconscious wants the same things I do, but when I'm paralyzed by indecision/habit/anxiety its only recourse is to try to create a crisis to take me out of my comfort zone and force me to face the challenge head-on. It wouldn't have to do this, and it would be a lot less unpleasant for everyone if I was a bit more brave and proactive in terms of working to get what I want.)

Anyhow, the outline seemed to be failing to get across some element in the vague ballpark of what I just described, since it mostly described Yasumi's role in driving the plot. I'd be interested if this somehow connects with your idea, and even more interested to see you definitively reject that notion (again, informed by my personal experience to a degree that I feel kind of ludicrous making the suggestion that the same thing might apply to Haruhi, although it logically fits) in favour of your own understanding of Yasumi's role in things...

Conversations between Kyon and Yasumi seem to be a potentially very effective way to explore Haruhi's mindset without having to resort to multiple POVs. At least, the conversations (regardless of whether my reasoning above is relevant or completely off base) seem to be an interesting approach to work through Haruhi's worries as Kyon tries to resolve the masquerade, and they're the part of the outline that I'm most curious to see your take on.

(If I think about it logically, though, there is another pitfall where Yasumi might be a bit too free and direct in divulging to Kyon the contents of Haruhi's most secret hopes and fears. It's really difficult to predict how likely this is to be a problem: canon!Yasumi doesn't set any precedent since she's more, not less inscrutable in her motives than Haruhi herself.

Again, risking the audacity to throw out an idea, maybe the reason canon!Yasumi is so inscrutable is she's just painfully shy. She spent most of the series hidden in the background, and mostly wound up facilitating those instances when Haruhi had set her mind against logic and the universe and wanted to do her own thing. (e.g. To make the awful movie, to summon strange people, to make celestials to smash her frustrations to bits.) Anyhow, Haruhi was in the driver's seat most of the time. It takes a serious crisis to bring Yasumi out, and she is afraid to reveal her nature to Kyon by anything other than such a roundabout way (her name) that they only realize after she disappears. And in this fic, she represents Haruhi's most inmost desires, which Haruhi is afraid/anxious to act on, judging by the prologue, lest she be disappointed. How anxious Haruhi is, I also amply infer from the very notion that she won't reveal things to Kyon herself, but will instead send a surrogate entity to try to solve the problem for her, out of sight and out of mind.

Anyhow, the idea that Yasumi is going to go into this very shy, is one possible way to limit the degree to which (the outline comes across to me this way) she has both Kyon and Haruhi at a very severe disadvantage. Again, there are probably others that I'm not seeing.

Basically any way you can come up with that makes sense to you (/ that you have come up with but neglected to put into the outline) to nuance Yasumi's character, really, strikes me as better than the dynamic of Yasumi just straight-up bossing Kyon around, and not appearing properly (as in the prologue) / not telling him things just to be a tease.

I mean, why would Yasumi show up in the prologue, only to hide in the bushes when Kyon tries to follow her? Either she's being a cruel tease, or she's shy and doing something she still isn't used to doing, so she just gradually tries to work up her courage, or there's some other reason that you need to have in mind besides just "it's foreshadowing for her later appearance". (Actually, I... think she does accomplish something or other by appearing, in the mechanical sense of advancing the plot? I'll need to refresh the portion of blink-and-you-miss-it call-forwards in the prologue that I haven't yet deciphered in my head, I'm afraid.)

---

Now, in terms of issues of squick or waff that much of the feedback lingers on, I can't really predict anything. It seems to take tremendous experience to intentionally control the level of these things in your writing. Without that experience it's really only possible to tell after when you can perceive the ultimate gestalt of the story, not to mention that people really do differ in their gestalt perceptions. What one person finds horrifying, another person will be indifferent to; what the other person will find disturbing, yet a third might find to be at least perversely apt through some unexpected irony; what the third might find discouraging, a fourth might consider to be uplifting.

One last thing to suggest (with much trepidation since it might not apply to you): your outline, as other people have praised, is extremely well-thought out and rigorous. (Many objections seem to be people assuming the worst regarding the waff/squick gestalt that will result when you've already written it, as I've mentioned above. That might be very unfair, but there's a point to it: reasoning that it's better to do that than brashly assume the best and then everyone having to deal with disappointment when you're finished writing the fic via the high-investment plan-outline-write approach.) You've plotted out your fic, now you just need to go and write every last one of the scenes that get the characters from point A to point B via point C. No uncertainty here, right? Perhaps that's the problem -- that if you have everything nailed down at this point to the extent that there's no room for the story to go to surprise you (in positive ways, not just negative ones), contemplating going through all of the scenes and writing them out may inspire, well, just boredom. When expressing yourself, you could argue that there has to be something at stake for it to be genuine.

_{(Personally, I have more of a problem in that I tend to plan fics by nailing down a bunch of irrelevant factors while leaving important and obvious questions unanswered, then diving in and turning out to be disappointed by my results.)}

I've read, for instance, that when Hayao Miyazaki begins working on a movie, he will often storyboard and even have animators film the most important scenes in the movie, before he even knows how the movie is going to end at the time he's doing it. Miyazaki of course is the caliber of storyteller who knows that he can deal with any surprises the story throws his way (and indeed can rely on the fact that grappling with them serves to make the story interesting), to the extent that he can bet not only his own time and emotional investment, but also other people's money, on the outcome. (Keep in mind that he is being entrusted with a multi-million dollar budget, and you will realize how insane that is. Certainly no one in the newer generation of directors Studio Ghibli is currently trying to raise has anything remotely like that privilege.)

The technique is referred to as "Edo house building", in reference to house builders who construct a minimal space containing only the most important living needs, and then over the years build an increasingly complex mass of add-ons, as it occurs to them that this or that may be necessary.

This is sort of the opposite extreme from the plan-everything approach, and mere mortals will probably find themselves overwhelmed and discouraged by running into something they can't handle, but the basic idea seems reasonable enough that you might consider introducing it to a limited extent. Particularly since the portion of the story you're currently staring at and blocked on seems to be the least important, not the most important.

As Brian points out, it might ultimately be quicker to just write the most important things to you, find flaws, throw them away, start over, than to try to plan the entire fic in such a way as to eliminate the possibility of it not living up to your expectations.

What I can certainly, in no way, shape or form advise or guess at, is the degree of unfinished-ness that you are going to be willing to let people see. But certainly if there's an important scene you have in your outline and in your head, but that you haven't written out yet, maybe it would be more reasonable to work that out first, rather than starting with the mundane logistics of how the Brigade gets to Italy so they can have that important scene?[/spoiler]

Anyhow, I sincerely hope that was food for thought, and moreover that it won't result in any mental indigestion. I'm curious to what extend this resonates, or fails to resonate, with your thinking so far.

I know that Brian didn't find this kind of feedback at all useful on the early stages of Sympathy (a) because it came across as initially brash and condescending (that I've hopefully managed to avoid in this case) and (b) even when I came back on IRC and restated it as a series of polite suggestions, it turned out to be impossible to incorporate without completely altering the fic idea to suit my expectations rather than Brian's, which is of course a ludicrous idea. If either of those is the case, I'm very sorry I couldn't be more helpful this time either -_-

Again, food for thought, not much more than that. If anything seems like it's diverging from where you want to take the fic, keep in mind: I was aiming more to try to hit on some aspect of things that you might not have considered (especially regarding Yasumi's motivation), not to replace your answers to the issues posed with my answers. If you already have your own answer for all of the questions discussed, then I'm certain you'll be able to pull through on this one sooner or later without needing to listen to me at all :-)

And now I need to go and take my own Edo-housebuilding advice more seriously in terms of writing my own fic, before I turn into a hypocrite.

So, hoping against hope that posting this turns out to be a net benefit for everyone,
Arakawa

Arakawa · February 23, 2012, 12:57:31 AM

Actually, a factual correction to the above:

Spoiler: Show

Anyhow, best of luck -- I'm confident you'll be able to puzzle out your own solution, and I'll be the more interested the more your understanding of the matter diverges from what I've conjectured so far. I went into this trying to qualify/corroborate Brian's feedback, but instead wound up writing this whole unrelated thing, so I hope the additional opinion helps you triangulate what makes the fic important to you specifically, rather than proving to be overwhelming.

Muphrid · February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM

Given that discussion on this story is still ongoing and there's some uncertainty as to how some things are coming across, I took it upon myself to go over the extant material once more--reading the newest revisions of the chapters, reviewing the outline and the c&c posts in this thread to compare against. To avoid the temptation to focus on technical issues, I've tried to summarize as much as possible, as I think that can be indicative of a reader's interpretation in and of itself. To encourage thoroughness on my part, I read the story aloud (which, incidentally, is much better for catching issues of usage and word choice and such than it is for analyzing other aspects, but I stuck with it anyway).

We start with Kyon establishing a peaceful summer devoid of threats to existence or the brigade. Haruhi, in his mind, is becoming more normal. In his view, her appetite for the strange has waned. She window shops instead of seeking out mysteries. She enjoys her time talking with Sakanaka. One line, however, is critical:

QuoteActually, when Haruhi was not using her position as the leader of the brigade to push issues in the direction she wanted, she could present an entirely engaging and sociable aspect of herself to others.

I think this is balanced. It's not unreasonable for Kyon to find Haruhi at her most commandeering anti-social in some way. Given that this comes on the heels of other positive thoughts about her, this is clearly intended and comes across as reinforcement.

The resulting notion, that Kyon thinks Haruhi is reverting to a nicer person that she used to be, isn't elaborated on in too much detail, but I take that to mean the person she was before her baseball epiphany.

And on that note, we go to Kyon and Koizumi watching the baseball game. Koizumi expresses his relief at Haruhi's lack of activity. He sums up the current situation, saying no one is moving to throw things out of balance. Kyon has an interesting line:

QuoteTo be completely fair, credit must be given for not mentioning Sasaki in that context.

What he means by this I can only guess--it's obvious that Sasaki had no interest in destabilizing things?

Kyon decides to leave, and I know it was mentioned that Kyon should've been mildly interested in staying around at least to see if Haruhi were outside. I don't find strong indication of this. It's not clear if the game has been lopsided for some time, for example. He justifies leaving as not wanting to watch a game that is almost certainly decided. If he were looking for Haruhi, I would expect him to scan the area, looking at other spectators. If he wanted to cloak his intentions, he might say it's for no particular reason.

Then again, Kyon's thoughts immediately go back to Haruhi:

QuoteFor a lack of better word to describe it, Haruhi had apparently become absent-minded.

This phrase is "for lack of a better word" or since you use two (or a compound?) words, "for lack of better words," perhaps.

Kyon goes on to describe Haruhi's unusual behaviors, concluding with a meaningful line:

QuoteI had previously seen what Haruhi looked like when she was bored, annoyed or just dispirited, and this spell was none of those. It wasn't even the muted aura of a Haruhi who was secretly hatching a new plan for making the world a more interesting place. No, there was something else, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was, and there wouldn't be any point in asking, anyway.

Why not, one wonders? It's not unreasonable for Kyon to expect no forthright response from her, but it also means that his concern for her is more distanced. If he had pressed her and been rebuffed, Haruhi's reaction would be telling in some way.

Kyon goes into a metaphor about Haruhi being a volcano (apt considering the volcano that seems to play a big role later on). He thinks the brigade fears Haruhi "waking up." Saying they can only "wait and hope for the best," Kyon doesn't seem to me too concerned, for he knows being so would be pointless.

Haruhi teaches Kyon random things. Kyon says it's because she wants to "make the world a more learned place" and doesn't acknowledge the possibility (however obvious to us) that she just wants to help him.

Kyon goes on about how the education system is flawed and how Haruhi could probably revolutionize it without even trying. Not knowing what you intend, this would seem like a paragraph merely inserted for pacing, rhythm, etc. Knowing that Kyon possibly having doubts about keeping up with Haruhi, this paragraph gains a lot of possible future meaning. I think this is a good thing, but I'm cautious about having such hinting take place in spots too sheltered from the plot. A careless reader would be tempted to skip the whole paragraph or skim it and not get the meaning.

This paragraph drew some attention before:

QuoteFor all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly. Then my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, but since Haruhi isn't really used to receiving praise for the things she does of her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

While I agree that Haruhi isn't necessarily as an absolute rule going to avoid praise, it does strike me as plausible that she would not want too much attention on what she's doing with Kyon.

Kyon waxes momentarily on the convenience of Haruhi being his teacher, in a manner that reminds me (slightly) of how he fawns over Asahina.

Now we have Tsuruya, who seems worried for some reason that Asahina might be troubled, perhaps portending what may occur later on? It's too vague to know for certain. Really, the main gist of this part is Kyon asking Tsuruya a favor, one he refuses to elaborate on at the moment, which I think is well and good. Tsuruya leaves, giving him a victory sign, clearly thinking that this marks progress, which Kyon tries to deny. That in itself is nothing new, so I don't find it too problematic. Kyon goes to class, finding Haruhi.

QuoteI cleared the last stretch to my intended destination and entered class 2-5. After just a few months of the new term the place already felt almost like a second home to me with all its familiar details, especially the one currently sitting on her seat, looking out of the window in apparent contemplation.

Sitting "in" her seat, looking "out" the window. Also, next paragraph, you call Haruhi "arbitrator"? I think "arbiter" would be a more fluid word to use. But I digress; I don't want to be bogged down in technical details.

Kyon revisits his conclusion that "Haruhi is Haruhi" and makes good points about how others are tempted to see her as an object to carry out what they want or desire instead of a person. Kyon states that he trusts the brigade but not the factions that back the people in it. Kyon wonders if Haruhi would enjoy being the center of all this attention, despite her stating previously that she wanted the world to revolve around her. This is good: Kyon suspects--nay, knows--that Haruhi is deeper than that.

So now Kyon says he didn't see Haruhi outside. This erases my earlier objection, though it's a bit more direct than I remembered.

Here is Haruhi and Kyon's first interaction in the story. Haruhi dismisses the idea of another baseball tournament because there are "more important things" to think about. Kyon responds:

Quote"I was afraid that you might say something like that."

Kyon's irritation with Haruhi's whims doesn't seem entirely unjustified based on her history, but in context of the story here, I'm not so certain this is what he should be saying. He knows she's been distracted; he should know what's on Haruhi's mind isn't "typical" even when loosening the term to fit her behaviors. When Haruhi says there are more pertinent things to think about, to me Kyon's response should be, in not too many words, "Such as?" or "Care to elaborate?" Haruhi's response to that can be the same, but it changes the color of the interaction.

That said, based on the idea of Kyon feeling out of place or not sure about his role, his remarks about mysteries wanting to be left alone and that "someone must do the jeering" make a lot of sense.

And Kyon avoids thinking about Melancholy, lest he get carried away. For this point in time, entirely appropriate. And when he says that he likes the way things are, Haruhi must be thinking, "Rats, because I want to change things with us," but she won't come out and say it. She reels, exactly as Kyon had described earlier. I think his depiction of that before sets this up nicely. Why Haruhi can't be more direct (I think I've touched on this before) isn't too important at this early stage of the story.

I've only made it about halfway through prologue I by this point, but I intend to go over both and try to provide what fresh thoughts I can on the story and help give direction. If I recall, I suspect the crux of the concerns will stem from prologue II, but nevertheless, it seems wise to be thorough.

...and if nothing else, I've forced myself to say "Tsuruya last" five times over to get my mouth and tongue used to the combination of sounds.

...nope, still don't have that yet.

sarsaparilla · February 23, 2012, 01:05:28 PM

Arakawa, thank you for those thoughts, there are many parallels to what I have been thinking about.

You are spot on when you suggest that Haruhi feels that time is running out -- this is the most fundamental drive behind the whole story. The entirety of chapter 4 will be used to establish this, but the tangible issue here is that although Haruhi and Kyon will have another summer vacation while still in the high school, this is the last summer for Asahina; the SOS Brigade in its familiar composition is coming to an end, and this has made Haruhi contemplate the eventual break-up of the entire brigade.

Concerning Yasumi, she's not punishing Kyon or trying to sabotage Kyon and Haruhi in any way, quite the opposite. She appeared in the prologue just to lure Kyon and Haruhi together because Haruhi wanted to have a private conversation. In future chapters she mostly tries to help Kyon sort out his thoughts on issues and encourages him. I will remove any traces of Yasumi being the effective antagonist during the final arc.

sarsaparilla · February 23, 2012, 01:26:24 PM

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
The resulting notion, that Kyon thinks Haruhi is reverting to a nicer person that she used to be, isn't elaborated on in too much detail, but I take that to mean the person she was before her baseball epiphany.

That would be the intended meaning.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
What he means by this I can only guess--it's obvious that Sasaki had no interest in destabilizing things?

Basically, Kyon is happy that Koizumi doesn't group Sasaki with the rest of the anti-SOS brigade that has actively worked against them.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
Kyon decides to leave, and I know it was mentioned that Kyon should've been mildly interested in staying around at least to see if Haruhi were outside. I don't find strong indication of this. It's not clear if the game has been lopsided for some time, for example. He justifies leaving as not wanting to watch a game that is almost certainly decided. If he were looking for Haruhi, I would expect him to scan the area, looking at other spectators.

Actually, looking at other spectators is exactly what he does before deciding to leave.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
QuoteI had previously seen what Haruhi looked like when she was bored, annoyed or just dispirited, and this spell was none of those. It wasn't even the muted aura of a Haruhi who was secretly hatching a new plan for making the world a more interesting place. No, there was something else, but for the life of me I couldn't figure out what it was, and there wouldn't be any point in asking, anyway.

Why not, one wonders? It's not unreasonable for Kyon to expect no forthright response from her, but it also means that his concern for her is more distanced. If he had pressed her and been rebuffed, Haruhi's reaction would be telling in some way.

Yes, at this point Kyon is more uncertain about what's going on than actually concerned, this is reinforced several times.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
Haruhi teaches Kyon random things. Kyon says it's because she wants to "make the world a more learned place" and doesn't acknowledge the possibility (however obvious to us) that she just wants to help him.

Indeed. ^_^

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
QuoteFor all I knew my mother would probably insist to have Haruhi visiting us, maybe even regularly. Then my mother would get a chance to show her gratitude, but since Haruhi isn't really used to receiving praise for the things she does of her own volition, she might decide to drop the whole project permanently, leaving me to my own devices again.

While I agree that Haruhi isn't necessarily as an absolute rule going to avoid praise, it does strike me as plausible that she would not want too much attention on what she's doing with Kyon.

Actually, my intention was that this was another misinterpretation made by Kyon, and that Haruhi certainly wouldn't mind tutoring Kyon at his home.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
And when he says that he likes the way things are, Haruhi must be thinking, "Rats, because I want to change things with us," but she won't come out and say it.

Exactly.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 23, 2012, 02:15:41 AM
I've only made it about halfway through prologue I by this point, but I intend to go over both and try to provide what fresh thoughts I can on the story and help give direction. If I recall, I suspect the crux of the concerns will stem from prologue II, but nevertheless, it seems wise to be thorough.

Thank you very much of this! Actually, going through the finished chapters helps me with handling the issues with the forthcoming ones as well, so your effort is doubly useful.

Muphrid · February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM

QuoteActually, looking at other spectators is exactly what he does before deciding to leave.

So he does. I see now. You snuck it in there for one sentence. It might be useful to spend more time on that point, so it isn't easily missed, but then, since Kyon comments on Haruhi not being there, that may be enough anyway.

QuoteActually, my intention was that this was another misinterpretation made by Kyon, and that Haruhi certainly wouldn't mind tutoring Kyon at his home.

Indeed, I was remiss here. Kyon's estimation of what Haruhi would do versus what Haruhi would actually do is the layer I neglected. Nevertheless, I feel I must echo something Brian (I think) said--that Haruhi has received praise before and handled it, at least to some extent. It might be best for Kyon to acknowledge the possibility.

Now, the second half of Prologue I:

Kyon goes through afternoon classes without paying attention, distracted like Haruhi, though not to the same extent. Just what is keeping him from being studious he doesn't say, but since Haruhi is the only subject he talks about to any level of detail, it's not a difficult guess.

The way you've go about this scene with Haruhi helping Kyon in physics is interesting to me. As with Haruhi's absent-mindedness, this is something you've already discussed, in a way that gets the audience acclimated to the idea before you actually show it happening in real time. This technique is not something I've noticed or thought about before--that is, thank you very much while I go steal it for something else. Ahem.

I really enjoy Haruhi's bizarre thought process and the way she does dimensional analysis. On the other hand, I think some caution is in order: because we don't see Haruhi's explanations in detail, it gives some impression that Haruhi expects Kyon to understand her unusual way of thinking straight away. In particular, Kyon says,

QuoteI never figured out what Haruhi's haphazard drawings had to do with the whole issue, either.

For Kyon to have had success studying under Haruhi's tutelage, I would expect by this point they could communicate effectively, that by the end of ten minutes Kyon could express at least a cursory understanding of Haruhi's peculiar way of looking at it and even say it makes a bizarre sort of sense. He does say he thinks he has the basic idea down, but without elaborating on it, we can't be sure.

On the other hand, a general audience may appreciate only so much physics. At any rate, I'm concerned it can reflect badly on Haruhi for taking too obfuscated an approach because by this point, it's seems like she should know better. That said, this may be thinking a lot about a small issue.

At this point, Haruhi tells Kyon the brigade meeting is canceled for her "personal matter," which suits Kyon because he has his own thing to take care of. Haruhi warns him that he absolutely should be there tomorrow, that failing to be present would incur "a heavy penalty without exceptions".

In the club room, Koizumi was apparently running to meet the brigade, for reasons unclear, yet he expresses confidence that whatever Haruhi is up to is no cause for alarm. Clearly Koizumi has some inkling of what's up, but that he wishes not to alarm Kyon or the others is curious.

The brigade stays for tea, and as Kyon plays with Koizumi, he wonders why Tsuruya thought Asahina was troubled, but he can't discern anything wrong.

Right, the hanafuda card joke is here. I think if one is paying close attention (like I am as I do this), one can pick up there's supposed to be a gag here, even not knowing what it is. While a gag not being picked up isn't a terrible crime, it does cast Koizumi in a different light to know what he meant. Koizumi knows Haruhi's up to something, and to bring up the subject would be a significant sign, if only to the audience rather than to Kyon, who refuses to acknowledge it.

QuoteNow that I thought about it, it had to be rather uncomfortable to wear the maid uniform in this weather, but I couldn't possibly suggest that she switched to something lighter.

This technical aspect I felt compelled to point out. The underlined is in imperfect tense, subjunctive mood--it should be switch.

At this point, Kyon acknowledges that if he were to (heh, that's imperfect subjunctive) ask that Asahina be relieved of her maid uniform during this time of year, his concern might be misinterpreted (he doesn't say by whom), and Haruhi might suggest a more indecent outfit as a replacement. This, to me, demands a question be asked--what does Kyon think about Haruhi dressing up Asahina in risque costumes, and if he's really attracted to Haruhi, how is it he can put that aside? Does he dismiss it as trivial or something he can influence and keep under control?

Kyon relates how he deleted the "Mikuru" folder, and whom does he mention fearing would find it but Haruhi? He says, in particular, "that wasn't a risk I was willing to take at this point". So, Kyon, you're at some point with her now, are you? (I feel a little bit like I should be ten years younger to say that, but there we are.)

Kyon relates how, without Haruhi, the club is lacking something, that it's boring without Haruhi around. I actually think this spot might benefit from some slight clarification. Kyon could easily justify "wanting" to stay infected with the "Suzumiya virus" by pointing to Disappearance and, in doing so, try to ward off any possible romantic overtones. Then again, perhaps it's telling that he doesn't.

The brigade adjourns; Nagato goes to the computer club and makes a bunch of bespectacled (or not) computer geeks drool over her code. Kyon goes to the Tsuruya estate, and when he tells the ~~yakuza heiress~~ er, very nice young lady that Haruhi had her own errands, she says,

Quote"Is that so? Looks like you might not be the only one who gots ideas, then. It pleases me greatly to see that things are going well!"

In hindsight, Kyon is doing an excellent job of making himself oblivious when practically everyone else can see what's up.

I'll keep chipping away at this unless it feels unwarranted. I think more stuff happens in part II, so I expect that revisiting it will confront more of the concerns that have been expressed thus far.

sarsaparilla · February 24, 2012, 05:10:18 PM

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Kyon's estimation of what Haruhi would do versus what Haruhi would actually do is the layer I neglected. Nevertheless, I feel I must echo something Brian (I think) said--that Haruhi has received praise before and handled it, at least to some extent. It might be best for Kyon to acknowledge the possibility.

Yes, it could be phrased in a less definite way, with Kyon still preferring to stay on the 'safe' side.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
For Kyon to have had success studying under Haruhi's tutelage, I would expect by this point they could communicate effectively, that by the end of ten minutes Kyon could express at least a cursory understanding of Haruhi's peculiar way of looking at it and even say it makes a bizarre sort of sense. He does say he thinks he has the basic idea down, but without elaborating on it, we can't be sure.

That can certainly be written in a way that shows Kyon getting a better understanding of what Haruhi was trying to explain, but still feeling uncomfortable with how radically different it is from the standard curriculum.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
In the club room, Koizumi was apparently running to meet the brigade, for reasons unclear, yet he expresses confidence that whatever Haruhi is up to is no cause for alarm. Clearly Koizumi has some inkling of what's up, but that he wishes not to alarm Kyon or the others is curious.

Koizumi has his empathic link through which he can always sense Haruhi's general mood and her whereabouts, and that gives him a certain edge on some things. Had he and Kyon been alone in the room he might have mused about possible explanations for Haruhi's behavior -- ones that he doesn't know for sure but can guess based on available information -- but since Asahina and Nagato are also present, he doesn't do that. He will have a talk with Kyon at the beginning of chapter 3, though, as he's very eager to know what didn't happen and why.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Right, the hanafuda card joke is here. I think if one is paying close attention (like I am as I do this), one can pick up there's supposed to be a gag here, even not knowing what it is. While a gag not being picked up isn't a terrible crime, it does cast Koizumi in a different light to know what he meant. Koizumi knows Haruhi's up to something, and to bring up the subject would be a significant sign, if only to the audience rather than to Kyon, who refuses to acknowledge it.

Yes, Koizumi is definitely poking Kyon a bit here, though in a less blatant way than some other times in the canon. His take on things will be studied in more detail during the third story arc (Venice), and I'll try to develop him into a better direction, as in wanting to help Kyon and Haruhi just because they are his friends, and not because it would be 'good for the humankind' or something along those lines.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
At this point, Kyon acknowledges that if he were to (heh, that's imperfect subjunctive) ask that Asahina be relieved of her maid uniform during this time of year, his concern might be misinterpreted (he doesn't say by whom), and Haruhi might suggest a more indecent outfit as a replacement. This, to me, demands a question be asked--what does Kyon think about Haruhi dressing up Asahina in risque costumes, and if he's really attracted to Haruhi, how is it he can put that aside? Does he dismiss it as trivial or something he can influence and keep under control?

Kyon relates how he deleted the "Mikuru" folder, and whom does he mention fearing would find it but Haruhi? He says, in particular, "that wasn't a risk I was willing to take at this point". So, Kyon, you're at some point with her now, are you? (I feel a little bit like I should be ten years younger to say that, but there we are.)

Misinterpreted by Haruhi, obviously, but I could as well write that out. What I'm trying to convey here is that while Kyon acknowledges that Asahina is physically attractive, he is also 'over' it and doesn't want it to be a defining factor in their respective relationships (between him, Asahina and Haruhi). Also yes, this is a covert acknowledgement from Kyon that his thoughts on Haruhi are more serious than before, even if he doesn't let it show through most of the time.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
Kyon relates how, without Haruhi, the club is lacking something, that it's boring without Haruhi around. I actually think this spot might benefit from some slight clarification. Kyon could easily justify "wanting" to stay infected with the "Suzumiya virus" by pointing to Disappearance and, in doing so, try to ward off any possible romantic overtones. Then again, perhaps it's telling that he doesn't.

I didn't necessarily mean the virus metaphor to be taken as anything romantic, it is more about Kyon embracing the exciting and unpredictable instead of the safe and boring he had done before, but you're right, this ties directly to his decision in Disappearance, and it could be mentioned to give the proper context to the statement.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
In hindsight, Kyon is doing an excellent job of making himself oblivious when practically everyone else can see what's up.

Some of it he doesn't genuinely see, some of it he doesn't just admit to others, or even to himself at this point. This will slowly change during the story.

Quote from: Muphrid on February 24, 2012, 02:34:16 AM
I'll keep chipping away at this unless it feels unwarranted. I think more stuff happens in part II, so I expect that revisiting it will confront more of the concerns that have been expressed thus far.

This has been very valuable, thank you very much for putting so much effort on it!

Muphrid · February 25, 2012, 02:30:27 AM

I'm in general agreement with all of the above responses, so I'll move directly to Prologue II:

Kyon ruminates on how this is the day things started going awry but that, even if he'd been told what would happen, he probably wouldn't have believed it. "Awry" is somewhat neutral, so it's hard to tell whether he thinks this was a bad or good thing or merely different.

Quote"Anyway, get up, Kyon-kun! It's almost breakfast time! It's going to be a really fine day, and mom has promised to take me and Miyoko to the shopping center after school."

Mom, capitalized.

There's some discussion here about Kyon's sister and comparing her to Miyoko. It's not apparent to me if this serves a greater purpose or is merely pacing, but it seems like a natural digression.

Kyon arrives at school, noticing the bag Haruhi's carrying around with her, but he doesn't remark on it, only greeting her instead. Somehow (and it's not clear to me how), he becomes aware that Haruhi is observing him. So there are several things to consider in this interaction: why does Haruhi look at him so intently, and why does Kyon persist in ignoring it until Haruhi speaks? For the former, Haruhi says that it's not about the bag but what day it is. Taking her at face value or not seems to make little difference to the net effect; what's important is that she wants Kyon to remark on something. Why Kyon ignores her, anticipating that she'll start the conversation instead, is somewhat more mysterious to me. It's almost like he's testing her, trying to see if he has her pegged correctly. On one level, this could be harmless, as it's not like Kyon has sinister intent here. On another, it could feel manipulative for Kyon to ignore her and prompt her question when he knows very well that she expected something further from him.

And then on another hand (have we run out of those yet?), Haruhi acting like, "You should've noticed this," could be construed as a bit demanding. That said, she asks him about it rather neutrally, and it's clear from her expression that though she may be anticipating something, she's not angry with him. So I don't think there's anything wrong there.

Haruhi and Kyon have an exchange while Kyon seems to deliberately ignore what day it is, and Haruhi picks up that he's playing dumb. Kyon notes that though Haruhi might try to look annoyed, it's clear she has a lot more on her mind. This interaction gets to the very nature of whether tsundere is attractive or not. Haruhi chides Kyon for "lack of effort," but since there's no real bite to this remark, Kyon seems to take it well, and I think it makes the interaction more cute than negative. To me, it's like Haruhi is going through the motions of being annoyed with him, when by this point it's like they're playing a game, on both sides--after all, this doesn't happen if Kyon acknowledges what day it is, so I see it like they're both acting the roles they're used to playing, when really the dynamic has changed.

Haruhi goes on espousing the benefits of leadership and enthusiasm and so forth. Kyon becomes increasingly worried that what she has planned will be demanding on him. I think Haruhi must be trying to pump Kyon up for what she has planned and is just...failing, miserably. To me, this says that she doesn't have a good read on what does motivate him. Nevertheless, it also seems odd that Kyon would be so quick to dread what Haruhi has in store when just the day before he noted that without Haruhi, thinks are boring. There doesn't seem to be enough dissonance on his part, in my mind, to have both exist without at least some attempt from him to quiet his own doubts.

Class starts here, giving Kyon no time to reconsider anything.

Haruhi doesn't go to lunch; Kyon eats at his desk and talks with her, and Taniguchi and Kunikida are left to their own devices. Haruhi takes a prune without asking, instead questioning him on if he ever wonders why he does the things he does. After Kyon's puzzled reaction, he realizes that Haruhi is being eminently serious with this question and, positively, puts aside a quick response for something more thought out.

Haruhi wonders how one's priorities and what one looks forward to can change with time--in my mind, if realizing something has become less important to you means that you were wrong to consider it so important in the first place or if that just means what you've learned to pay attention to in the present might be objectively more important. There's a feeling that Haruhi thought there should be an objective pecking order to things, that some things are absolutely more important than others and that it's the person who's wrong in assessing them if they think differently. Or, there's a more personal question in play: if Haruhi thinks new things are more important now, does that make her wrong before?

Kyon thinks to himself that this is "exquisite." I'd like to think this means he thinks it healthy for Haruhi to examine herself this way, rather than taking pleasure in her doubts. The former seems much more likely.

Now, I think I remember that some of this scene had a more specific subtext: that of seeking John Smith versus being happy with Kyon. I think someone might guess that to be the case, but without it being made more explicit later on (e.g. in later chapters) no one would reasonably know this, I think.

The next paragraph, about being prisoner to habits and not seeing things without prejudices, I think I remember was Haruhi's veiled way of imploring Kyon to give her a fresh look. As it is, the paragraph is still fairly abstract. It does, on closer inspection, seem very different from what came before, but I don't know if I could reasonably guess that this is what Haruhi was trying to say. Again, if this is made clear later in the story, then I don't think there's an issue. As it is, Kyon takes this as true proof that Haruhi has grown and changed and goes on to justify that reasoning.

On this whole passage, there's the greater issue of Haruhi using a veiled philosophical conversation to try to examine her feelings and convince Kyon to enter a relationship with her. On the one hand, it seems like the sort of thing any hesitant teenager might try to do, refusing to be direct due to anxiety and fear. On the other hand, knowing that Kyon will be judged for his response on a question that he doesn't even know he's being asked is...awkward. That he takes the question as seriously as he does and fails to come up with an answer actuallly seems like the best course all around. It seems to put Haruhi at ease, and Kyon is no worse for wear for it.

They wrap up lunch with idle conversation.

At the end of school (I notice you gloss over classes rather smoothly), Haruhi and Kyon study English while Kyon worries over how to accompany Haruhi to the classroom. Kyon doesn't elaborate on why Haruhi going to club first would spoil anything. It seems he must want to see Haruhi's reaction, or at least to be present when she sees what he's done in some way.

Luckily, Haruhi needs him to carry the sports bag, so they go together, and at club, they discover the object, revealed to be a bamboo plant. Haruhi goes through all the other brigade members first and doesn't even bother asking Kyon, who has a nonsense remark to offer. He mentions that his "long and arduous training" wouldn't be in vain if it devolved into a staring contest. Knowing that there's a lot of "I know you know I know" supposedly going on here, I think I see that this line was meant to indicate that, but it's a bit buried and seems easily missed.

In turn, Haruhi looks Kyon directly in the eyes while saying it must mean they're receiving recognition. Again, I see the hint, but I can also see how it could be easily missed.

They go through the wishes. Haruhi accosts Kyon for his wishes from before. Implicitly, I don't take any possible negative overtones from that exchange too seriously. Haruhi decides to have the brigade write new wishes this year. Haruhi doesn't write anything and decides to change the task so she doesn't, a noticeable--if harmless--abuse of her power to avoid the issue, and she resolves to go downtown for festivities.

So we head to the festival, and I think this is the real crux of the matter. Fairly quickly, Haruhi asks Kyon to buy kaiten-yaki for her. When Kyon says he doesn't remember having any penalties leveled against him, she says,

Quote"Does it always have to be a penalty? I was just giving you an opportunity to earn some sorely needed points through supporting your brigade leader, so that she isn't too hungry to fulfill her responsibilities. But if you insist, then maybe I can think of something you've neglected."

I think the underlined is the key part, revealing Haruhi's intentions. The rest of it depends on how one reads Haruhi's feelings, I think. If one reads her facetiously, as I think I originally did, then it feels like she's playing the role of overbearing brigade leader instead of actually being it. If one reads her seriously, then I think the rest of the paragraph costs some of the audience's favor for her. With Kyon as the narrator, no one wants to see him get pushed around by someone he ostensibly is interested in and cares for. Kyon, for his part, takes it rather well:

Quote"You might consider that a carrot but all I can see is a stick. Anyway, it's not my fault that you skipped lunch today."

From the underlined, I infer that Kyon sees Haruhi's line above as trying to be incentivizing, even if it isn't objectively. Nevertheless, Kyon sees it as a stick for the text of it.

Kyon concludes that Haruhi is hungry, and he convinces himself that he can give in on this point and balance the ledger in his own mind. Some people might see this as giving in to Haruhi without standing up for himself. To me, the best possible interpretation here is that Kyon picks up that Haruhi is up to something a lot bigger than just wanting a snack. Buying the kaiten-yaki is just the price of finding out and keeping the situation more stable than refusing. Even that has the fear of unexpected consequences to make this somewhat...unsettling. Kyon does pick up that "there was something in it"--or something more in this act than face value.

Kyon buys them, reflecting that he hasn't been penalized a lot lately, which someone mitigates the possible problems of the above. Then Kyon takes a shot at Koizumi, no doubt to relieve some of his bafflement.

Haruhi offers cakes to Nagato and Asahina, the latter provoking a fawning reaction from Kyon--if only Haruhi could be so polite, he thinks. Stuff about volcanoes, which probably portends much more than anyone reading for the first time would realize.

Haruhi mentions that they should go to Hawaii and dress up Asahina, stimulating some thoughts of a particular nature in Kyon. Haruhi picks up on his grin, but notably, she doesn't accost him for it. Perhaps Haruhi is encouraged that Kyon can have such thoughts, but regardless of the reason, I think it's positive that she doesn't get on his case about it.

The group moves on, and Koizumi approaches Kyon, arguing that Kyon's actions aren't haphazard, just like Haruhi's. Kyon says that Haruhi making him carry the bag is because he's the lowly peon, something Koizumi expresses surprise at. Kyon goes on to say,

QuoteI couldn't care to answer anything to such a loaded question, and Koizumi didn't push the issue any further because the girls had stopped in front of some shop and were now within earshot distance of us.

The phrase is only "within earshot," no "distance" necessary.

And Kyon says there's absolutely nothing to buying a bamboo for Haruhi.

Haruhi offers a half-eaten cake back to Kyon, which he wraps up and puts in his jacket. Kyon makes a particularly ludicrous comment:

Quote"As you can see, I'll keep it just in case I should suddenly find a need for a half-eaten cake -- and if I won't, it may eventually become a coveted piece of memorabilia bearing the bite marks of the famous leader of the SOS Brigade! What do you know, it looks like a win-win situation for me."

To me, it's not surprising that Haruhi calls him stupid after that. Just what is Kyon trying to accomplish with such a remark? Is he overcompensating, trying to downplay the significance of the act too much? It's hard for me to imagine saying that line in a way that's not mocking, even if only in the gentlest way.

Noting that the cake has bite marks, the significance if Kyon had eaten it is clear enough.

Haruhi takes them to a convenience store, ensuring everyone has five-yen coins in preparation for the visit to Ebessan. This reinforces that almost everything Haruhi has done that day was planned.

Haruhi forces Kyon to get a new fortune when his says he'll have bad luck in relationships. Not being too subtle, are we, Haruhi?

Eventually, Kyon is led away by the unknown person. Knowing this to be Yasumi, we can see that this is Haruhi's intention as well, but it's puzzling for Kyon to say that he has questions for this person. Knowing she's an aspect of Haruhi's mind, what questions can he really ask her? That said, I'm sure it would make sense once those questions are revealed.

When Kyon loses her, he wonders,

QuoteThe whole situation made me feel a bit silly. Had I gotten so bored with the safe, ordinary life that I had finally found that now I had to deliberately go out of my way to seek trouble?

Does he want an unusual life or doesn't he? Or can he at least recognize the apparent contradiction and claim that his wants are complicated?

Haruhi arrives, having seen someone too, but she doesn't say whom. Kyon thinks that he doesn't want to fuel any unusual thoughts or suspicions. I'll get back to that in a moment.

Haruhi asks him to rearrange lanterns. Right away, after Haruhi says that she's serious about it, Kyon has a strong reaction:

Quote"I can't even begin to fathom why you would want to do something like that! Besides, we would be thrown out before getting even halfway through the task."

Quickly, Haruhi backs off and starts telling him about John Smith.

Quote"In the middle school I was totally unsatisfied with my life [...]

In middle school. Also, people more often sit in rather than on chairs.

Haruhi gives her speech, and I'd forgotten just how beautiful it was. It's really heartwrenching to listen to Haruhi talk about wanting to give thanks to that person, not knowing it's Kyon she should be thanking. Kyon has a strong response of his own; he reels over this story, and he insists over and over that he can't tell her without risking everything. That much is justified, but he also says,

QuoteI would've even helped her with the lanterns now, but I knew already that nothing good would come out of that -- it was completely pointless!

What does he mean by that? It may be pointless to help her with the lanterns, but what else is he going to do? She's asking his help, and he's going to say no? That's actually not a bad response given how overwhelmed he is, and he does say that he thinks something else is going on. I guess it's just surprising to me that Kyon would be so literal here, even willfully so, when to anyone else, there would be clear meaning in helping her even if the message she intends to send has already been sent.

Truly, Kyon is once again too stunned to say anything, and Haruhi tries to brush it off with meaningless remarks about when Tanabata should be held and such. Kyon says he has to look away, lest he be driven to do something rash. They rejoin the group, and Kyon asks Nagato if they're in a time loop.

Kyon gives the bag back to Haruhi, saying, "Some other time, then?" and this gets Haruhi in better spirits. Kyon tries to make sense of what's happened, coming up with various theories.

Kyon gets wet, and the symbolism of the cake being ruined isn't lost on anyone.

Overall, I think the big thing that's missing for me is that Kyon is ostensibly happy about having a life slightly more interesting than typical, but when push comes to shove, he chooses ordinary and status quo every time. Granted, I don't think that's out of character, but I find it strange that at this time, thinking more positively of Haruhi, he doesn't recognize any conflict there.

The "I know you know I know" thing still doesn't jump out at me, to be honest. If it does, it's mostly in the scene in the club room right after the bamboo is seen. For the rest of the chapter, I can't really see how such a subtext changes anything. As a result, the rest of the chapter doesn't really feel like a battle at all, and I think that for the best anyway. When the time comes, Haruhi is sincere about wanting Kyon's help, but she doesn't say why---really why him and not anyone else---and so she's still protecting herself from disappointment. In addition, despite the problems it gives him here, Kyon doesn't reconsider whether to tell Haruhi about John Smith. It's probably too early to do so, but that means I expect the matter to weigh on his mind. That's something for the next chapter, I suppose.

Haruhi's confession of what her real intentions were for Tanabata was truly reminiscent of the baseball game passage in Melancholy for me, and though I thought for some time whether she says enough to justify Kyon's presence there or not, ultimately I think she does. She needs his help to do it. She doesn't say why; she doesn't have to. That admission, in my mind, is enough.

When I undertook this rereading, I hoped help find some collective understanding---to at once assuage some misgivings that have been expressed about the piece as it is extant and the future of it and also to better understand them and improve myself as a critic and a writer. As it is, I think I've still failed to bridge the gap I was hoping to traverse. It may be I'm fundamentally incapable of doing so.

At any rate, I do wish you luck in continuing this story. Ultimately, I think Haruhi's renewed determination and Kyon's continued thoughts on what it means to keep Haruhi in the dark must form the starting point for the next chapter--if that much is any inspiration to help drive the creative engine.

Soulriders 5.0: Legend of the Unending Games

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